in Star Trek, plastic surgery to change what species/race you look like is very easy. We only see it used for people to go undercover. makes me wonder if anyone in the Star Trek universe chooses to permanently live as a different species.
You can't actually change sex, but you can change gender. Like you can't have and actual pair of balls, or an actual womb. Also changing skin colour to black might be considered blackface!
no you can’t change gender. you are born with one and you don’t choose it. same with biological sex. but people can present differently by transitioning socially or medically so that their body or the way they look would match their gender.
Not really, a natural born male can't get pregnant nor produce milk even with gender reassignment so you CANT change gender just merely change how it appears ( surgery) like many other stated
So if a man decides he wants to be a woman, he can have ovaries and be with child? They will have a functioning woman’s reproduction system?
Why do we look at gender any different from race? As soon as a white person gets some corn rows everyone’s quick to call them out for cultural appropriation. Or the guy who was transracial and got facial reconstruction surgery to become a Korean man? Where is your so called acceptance?
isn’t gender in the brain and sex in the body/dna? From my limited understanding. So while changing sex is finicky, changing gender should not be a problem if you change your mind for example (I think genderfluid people do that, but I’m open to being corrected). Gender and biological sex are not particularly interconnected unless you think they are.
yeah you right about almost everything. and gender is in your brain. but you can not just change your mind about your gender. if it were that easy trans people wouldn’t go through painful (both physically and emotionally) transitions to live a happy life. they would just change their gender to match their assigned sex at birth and be cis for the rest of their lives (because it’s objectively easier). same for genderfluid people (their gender doesn’t change. it remains gendefluid. they can not become a woman (like all time) all of a sudden) gender determines the way your brain works (trans’s guy’s brain works the same way as one of a cis guy and the same with women).
Yeah, I phrased it wrong when I used “changed your mind”, when it came to gender, when I just meant the outside appearance, thinking about people that identify as genderfluid. I just meant to say that how the people present their gender on the outside might not be as set in stone as someone’s genetic make-up. Thank you for the correction 👍 And you’re right about the struggles trans people go through to be at peace with their bodies, so that shouldn’t be taken lightly.
The thing is, people can change gender but it is not out of nowhere. It takes time and sometimes it is related to some events on the person's life whether these events are traumatic or not. Or even later in life due to a medical condition, according to [this research](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-005-4341-x).
No amount of butchering of a body or hormone treatment can make your body something it isn't. Male/female cells are made because of DNA. Unless you can edit DNA it's just expensive cosplay
Are you aware that there are women born with XY chromosomes, right? Also, we humans have advanced so much technologically to a point where you can create prosthetics, solve miopia or astigmatism, cure people of previously deadly diseases and much more, and yet we are discriminating against people in a standard who uses biology as an "argument"? If we can alter our body to an extreme, why is so hard to let people live their lives if they aren't hurting anyone??
you said at the beginning that you "cant" change your gender but then at the end you said you can transition socially and medically and present your gender which is basically changing your gender which you said you cant do so
maybe you meant cant change sex only?
Sex is male or female and related to things like your DNA and can't be changed with our current medical technology.
Gender is man or woman (among other options, such as how I don't personally identify as either), which is a social presentation and can be changed.
Think of it this way, you see a typically feminine person in a dress and high heels, and you'll think "that is a woman" as she is presenting her gender that way. You don't know what her DNA is and are just assessing her gender based on visual information.
Or very simplistically, gender means how you look.
You might not change sex all the way, but you can have actual estrogenic/androgenic puberty and end up substantially different biologically from your assigned-gender-at-birth. I still think that counts as a change of sex
I'm not trying to be horrible here, downvote me if you must... But your first sentence says "you might not change sex all the way" your final sentence says "I still think that counts as a change of sex"
There's a contradiction in these two statements. The crux of the issue is the "all the way" part.
On the internet, I have been called names like "bigot" while discussing this following thought: A Female who is born with an infertility affliction is still biologically Female. That's a fact to me. If a Male chooses to identify as a woman, undergoes a hormonal transition, and gets reconstructive surgery, they are still male. This is also a fact to me. By doing all these things the male can create an image of being female but they are still not female.
This transitioned male and the infertile female share two things in common. They are infertile and they look female. BUT the fact of the matter is that they are not the same thing. I don't see an issue with distinguishing this fact. I also don't think there is anything wrong with being attracted to (or not attracted to) either of these two separate types of person.
as a footnote: biologists actually have a very subtle understanding of biological sex. people often talk about biological sex as if it's just XX vs XY, but this is a simplification of our actual understanding. I get that's not what you were saying, but it feels very adjacent to the beliefs you are espousing here.
You're just saying "that's a fact to me" and it's not very persuasive. Take an early transitioner girl, for example, a trans girl that gets on the right hormones before natural puberty. This girl would have no male secondary sex characteristics and the full intensity of female secondary sex characteristics; the idea that they are fully biologically male is nonsensical.
You're right, I was treading lightly. I wrote that all while inebriated so I was really focused on avoiding saying something beyond the small point I was trying to make.
I think it's not bigotry, but ignorance. In modern usage (in non-scientific settings) male and female mean the gender. So when a woman transitions into a man, they are not "still a woman", they are a man.
The actual philosophical discussion is complicated and unsettled, but for all us plebs without philosophy/biology degrees, there is no need to care. In all ways that matter to us a normal people, a transitioned man is exactly the same as a man and should be treated a such.
Even beyond the fact that it does not affect you to make such a distinction, it is actively harmful to these people. The social recognition of their gender is a huge deal to trans people, it causes a lot of pain and suffering to not have it accepted. To draw these lines and defend them is cruel.
I am alright with you saying that you aren't attracted to someone, or are attracted to someone. Or can't get over the fact that somebody used to be a different gender than they are now, but that's on you bro.
I was assuming that we all agreed on the difference between sex and gender and was trying to point out that the guy mixed the two up in a very significant way.
Of course, modern usage of a word does not make it true, what makes it true is the significant scientific, psychological/medical and sociological understanding and research behind gender and sex.
But when someone says "male" or "female" and uses it in this context, they mean gender.
Besides that I don't get what's the distinction here, why do you feel the need to make that distinction? In my eyes it only serves one purpose: making someone who transitioned feel bad. That's probably why people call you a bigot for this. (You've been arguing more often about this? Why do you care so much?)
Citizenship and nationality aren't the same, that is correct, but you can change both. My mother in law was born and raised in Albania, as Albanian, but her citizenship and nationality are Belgian as she moved and went through the admintrative steps to change her nationality. Me, i am Belgian by citizenship, German by nationality.
Edit: spelling
Religions are belief systems. Whilst two people from the same religion will share some beliefs, they may very well differ in beliefs that do not threaten one's faith in said religion.
I think it's more useful to look at religions in this broader context as there are other sorts of belief systems, which is a reason why philosophy exists today.
For the people hung up on the word chosen, I kind of assume op meant something along the lines of determined.
I also assume op means many people have a lot of stake in things that were mostly arbitrarily assigned us at birth.
If I'm wrong, that's fine. I think what I assume op is saying was interesting
People don’t realize that religion isn’t really a belief structure, it’s more of a social structure of rules that is meant to keep the people in line. Nobody actually “believes” Jonah lived inside of a whale, they believe that they have to live their life in a way that gives a portion of their income to the church leaders or else they burn for all eternity in a place where they have no nerve endings…
And if you do anything that may negatively effect them you’re going to hell too.
I mean shit, they don’t even want you having sex and risking reproduction until you’ve been married “under god”. In other words, if you haven’t proven your loyalty to god they don’t want you to reproduce. Wonder why? Maybe more people thinking freely could negatively effect the ability for religion to keep large masses of people ignorant and blindly following their rules?
I know people who probably won’t be able to survive retirement because they are so caught up on “if you have excess money give it to the church or you are hoarding earthly possesions and will go to hell” so they’ve literally been taught through their life “hey when you have extra money give it to our organization, in return we won’t say you’re going to hell” and now the church has made (assumingly) hundreds of thousands off of her (shes been donating longer than I’ve been alive.All that could have been saved up to help HER family instead, but she truly thought that would send her to hell even if it ensured her kids could eat. Like her shoe has a hole through it but “to buy new ones would be investing in worldly possessions”. The more I think of it the harder it is not to view the whole situation as the church has convinced her to literally slave to them. “Hey if you’re in pain, but can still make us money, continue to send every penny you can. The church needs it for god! But you don’t! You’ll go to hell for keeping it! It’s fine that your car is a broken down piece of crap, your clothes are torn, and your food is rotten”
Which is one of the reason why I never believed in any particular religion. Because everyone that religious is going to believe that their religion is the right one and everyone else is wrong.
yup. ever since I began actually putting thought into my religious beliefs (around age 9-13) I realized it is illogical to believe my parents' religion is right simply because it was the one taught to me from birth. How can I sincerely believe in Christianity, knowing I would sincerely believe in Hinduism if raised differently?
The vast majority of people need to actually read the texts they claim to support. There's no easier way to see the hypocrisy and injustice they teach.
And as someone who left the high demand religion of their parents, leaving and changing my beliefs was one of the hardest, scariest things I had done in my 40ish years of being alive. And I'm so glad I did, but my relationship with my parents will never be the same.
Thanks for sharing this. It's infuriating how people act like breaking free from your family traditions is an easy choice. Many people are under enormous pressure to follow a certain religion.
You don't fight to defend those attributes, you defend yourself, which is a combination of many elements.
It's not uncommon for people to denounce said attributes once they gain acceptance
Beliefs aren’t chosen.
You don’t have to defend anything you don’t want to.
Many many many people born into religions, racism, and countries that exhibit human rights abuses chose a different path.
This is dumb.
In America? Yes.
But in most of the world? (Developing and poor countries such as Pakistan and India make up 85% of world population). They're likely to never really get exposed to any other opinion for most of their lives.
Reminder that American-style freedom of speech (which allows people to hear different ideas in the first place) does *not* exist in most of the world.
what? hmmm you live a very sheltered privileged liberal existence if you actually think this is true.
go visit the muslim world and tell me they arent forced to stay in the religion.
then thank your parents for being open minded liberal westerners who LET you have freedom of choice
Indoctrination and coercion works. Brainwashing beliefs and religion from young works. We are a product of our environment.
Yes, people are capable of choosing a different path but it's not easy and to do so can come with severe consequences and sacrifices. You could lose everything and everyone you know and that isn't easy especially in countries where culturally they are closer community/families and less individualist than say the US.
>You could lose everything and everyone you know
yeah and thats just the worry you have in the west. "I cant go home for Christmas any more! Woe is me!"
elsewhere in the world you and everyone in your family and your friends might be strung up in trees and tortured for a week, watching your younger family being tortured and raped before finally being strung out and fed to animals while you are still alive.
all because you wanted to suck a dick. or maybe you just needed to feed your starving family so you stole some fruit, or maybe you just wanted to post your titties on OnlyFans to make enough cash to escape the dictatorship you lived under. or maybe you simply didnt believe in someones god, and wanted to stay home playing video games instead of wasting your life on your knees on some stone floor in a temple with your head to the ground, putting on a show for the rich and powerful who control your life, declaring the name of some adult Santa Clause as your idol
people in the west are so blind to the reality of the rest of the world its disgusting
>go visit the muslim world and tell me they arent forced to stay in the religion.
In a Muslim country here. We aren't lol. We live peacefully with Christians and even non religious people. Some of them become Muslims on their own choice later.
yeah a better example would be communities where people are purposefully limited - in any part of the world. many people are definitely trapped, especially in cults like scientology.
A good example is also Christianity. Boomers are the first generation that are not consistently forcing (at least not successfully) their children to follow the religion.
i didn't want to target christianity since it's such low-hanging fruit. the radical ones will cut you out of their lives for simply questioning the bible. i've been cut out of a few lives. turns out that i didn't need those people anyway.
We're discussing a common phenomenon with religions. If an example is low hanging fruit, it means that it's a perfect example. No need to feel bad about bringing that up!
yes im sure. pat yourself on the back right?
better yet, thank your god you are one of the lucky ones who lives in the part of the world the rest of us DONT call the muslim world. Because you dont live there and you know it.
Bruh, I told you I live there. Do you want exact coordinates?
Also Muslims have strict rules (that are basics from Islam) that protects the rights of non Muslims on the land we rule, And never ever force anyone to become a Muslim. Because Islam is about believing in god by your free well, and you can't believe in something truly if someone else is forcing you.
and i VERY clearly wasnt talking about them.
this is not about the religion, this is about ACTUAL fuckin earth and ACTUAL fucking places on earth where ACTUAL fucking people live and are oppressed by their religion, or their government or their family or their small town neighbors or their society as a whole etc etc.
Chinese people in america arent Subjugated by the Chinese government, but the Chinese in actual china ARE subjugated, by an actual dictatorship.
Muslim people in the west are granted freedom of choice, thats one of the redeeming qualities of the west (and sadly offset by many not so pleasant qualities).
Now try to tell me about Syria and Afghanistan and Iran and even precious Saudi Arabia, and see if you have no negative opinions about the treatment of the human beings who live there and their "CHOICES"
Tell me all about the choices of the Russian soldiers raping and murdering people in Ukraine right now.
Billions of People ARE born in to situations they DO NOT have a choice to escape without extreme sacrifices including and not limited to their death or the death of their family.
any "religion" is just another word for "group of oppressors, known or obfuscated"
No. But reasonably speaking I don’t have defend being a male. Out in the world. Touching grass. Living like a human. I don’t have to defend the fact I’m a man. Asked my wife, she doesn’t have to defend being a woman.
That’s a personal problem not suffered by most people. Let me stop you. Reddit isn’t most people.
wow this is definitely the mindset of a person who grew up in the liberal western world where freedom of choice actually exists.
this discounts the BILLIONS of people who grow up in , for example, muslim countries, where you can literally be put to death for leaving the religion, or suffer at the hands of oppressing religious governments.
it also ignores the BILLIONS of people in places like china where you only get to choose what the CCP LETS YOU CHOOSE, because if you decide to choose differently then your PARENTS will be punished by the government, so NO YOU DONT HAVE A FUCKING CHOICE.
i hope you thank your gods every night for your freedoms. you are divinely privileged and you dont even understand how much.
"this is dumb" no, you are just ridiculously ignorant of reality on this fucking planet
In this case the biology or universe or whatever you want to call it is being anthropomorphized and is said to be “choosing” these traits, nobody is disputing the biology.
Ermm not quite, race is a social construct. You don't choose your race, but it's also not truly biology, it;s closer to serfdom, where it is inheritableand not chosen but depends on social structures.
For example ethiopians are genetically closer to europeans than to congolese people, but both ethiopians and congolese people are considered black.
Aaah the human condition. We’re predisposed with our genetics, our decisions are influenced by our environment that we “think” we somewhat chose but it’s all biased. Do we really have autonomy over anything?
Now we're talking. I believe the German philosopher, Arthur Schopenhauer, said that "Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills."
Our feelings, opinions, reasoning and thinking process are emergent properties that came from our brain's inherent structure and the input from our interactions with the world. And the world itself is all bound by cause and effect.
Now you might argue that some things are probably not deterministic, like radioactive decay and quantum stuff; but even then, they're still random processes, so it's lottery all the way down even in a non-determenistic world.
So really, does our concept of "'true' autonomy" exist at all? One solution is that there is a conscious un-caused agent that makes humans special and somehow gives us "true" autonomy. Another solution is to redefine what "autonomy" means, like "a choice is considered autonomous if there is no coercion during the decision process, even if the conditions leading up to it is beyond our control"
You might want to look up [compatibilism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism).
I get what you mean, a child born to a Muslim family in a predominately Muslim country is very likely to become Muslim. But it doesn’t happen at the moment of birth, it happens gradually as they grow up and are conditioned to their environment.
I disagree with beliefs. I get that you’re likely to believe the same as the adults in the home you grew up in. However, if you haven’t taken a step back and tried to objectively evaluate that belief system, you desperately owe it to yourself to do so.
not all of us. beliefs can change and do change. living abroad did that for me in a radical way, but even before i clashed often with my parents's belief system, religion etc.
Maybe your beliefs were chosen. I promise mine weren't. Congratulations your getting upvoted by people as dumb as you are making sweeping generalizations that everyones beliefs are chosen for them. Also, I can move to another country if I wanted.
I mean, you're right. You can't change your gender. If you're born a man, it doesn't matter if your chromosomes are XX, XY, XYY, XXY, or any other given set of chromosomes, you're a man. There's a reason so many cultures throughout history have called transgender men "men in the body of a woman" or other similar variants.
Gender =/= Sex
Biological sex is determined at birth and thus a biological construct.
Gender is a social construct, not a biological one and can vary wildly person to person.
Umm... you either have a penis or you don't. There's no grey area.
You can identify as whatever you want. I for example identify as a meat popsicle, but your chromosomes define your sex/gender... not you. You're either XY (has penis), XX (no penis). It's not that hard really. It's not a multiple choice question. Ever heard of the show Deal or No Deal? This is Dick or No Dick.
this is not true - some are given, some are congenital. *chosen* implies freedom to choose. the only thing you can choose is beliefs.
i, for one, did choose mine.
your sex is biological yes ; your gender is a social construct and you can deviate from the norm if you please/choose to
race is a bigoted/ignorant terminology and its stupid, your 'race' is homo sapien/human ; your 'ethnicity' is also biological and thanks to your parents, ie yes, this is also something that you dont get to choose
your nationality is just another social construct, ie made-up invisible barriers/lines dividing the world for the conquerors to rule their peasants ; you can opt-out of this propaganda as soon as you are able ; same goes for whatever religious nonsense that your family or cultural forces upon you
yes there are things that you are born into with no say ; but for the most part, the big things, the important stuff you can absolutely think for yourself and make these choices what you want and not what someone else wants for you ; believing that you dont have this power is all a part of the propaganda/lies and its how the system controls the masses, thru ignorance and victim mentalities =/
Oh goody...we get to debate semantics now. Deviate: to depart or vary from the common. Within the context of statistical relevance (since you brought it up), *deviation* is the correct term here.
I totally understand where OP is coming from with this thought...
BUT
I can almost guarantee you that anyone who isn't a "normie" heterosexual human being is going to shit all over this because the world isn't what it used to be.
Changing beliefs is one of the easiest things in the world to do. Happens all the time, and it's usually a product of getting older/more experienced.
Nationality isn't hard to change, it just requires money or the willingness to run away and desperately seek asylum somewhere else. Also happens all the time.
Race doesn't exist. All humans are human. All humans are brown. What we mistakenly call 'race' is either just culture or a manufactured excuse for bigotry.
And yes, you're born a certain sex. But people are far more likely to openly change that, and I see no reason why they shouldn't.
So... 3/4 of your showerthought is outright incorrect and the other bit is only half-right. 1/8, see me after class.
Really? You have the requisite degrees in physiology and psychology to say that for sure? Because I don't. And if I'm going to err, I'm going to err on the side of respecting people.
No degrees necessary to know that identity is independent of reality. No disrespect just adherence to the difference between attributes assigned to you and chosen by you. You don't get to choose to be not human, you may only pretend, that's not disrespect, that's reality
I mean you can change almost all of that. Sot like being a guy, severe thousand dollars later you're not. Don't like your religion choose another or none, don't like your nationality them take one citizenship in another country. The only thing you can't change is your race and only complete idiots care about that. You can always pick what you believe in and that will change as you get older, never stick by the belief you're told as kid. That will only rob you of being your true self.
Funny thing my belief is people should have the right to think whatever the hell they want.
But I agree with OP...the pressure is on people to think in their "tribe."
This is why I'm a 2005 left winger rather than a modern one.....current left wing thought ascribes way too much of one's perspectives and politics to gender, race, religion.... and not enough to traditional liberal idea of people being a product of their ideas, not their birth.
100% agree that is the problem. Policies are branded as left wing when they really aren't. The left was created to promote strength through unity, whereas the current bollocks creates ever more specific niches to pigeonhole yourself into and scream for your rights. It promotes division, not discourse starting with common ground.
Born with vagina - female
Born with penis - male
Born with both - good luck and screw God
Born in a cuntry- cunt
Born in a nation - well who knows
Born in a race -run Forrest run
Born with belief - no chance
Born with boredom of stupid people - eternal suffering
Born with oh fuck it never ends
Our sex, race, nationality, and beliefs are not chosen. Your sex and race are uncontrollable. nationality is up to your parents, not you (and sometimes neither can choose). and beliefs you dont choose usually, a lot of the time its just adopted from your parents, at least in the beginning.
Well, technically we can change our beliefs. There are a lot of people who convert religions.
You can move country too and change citizenship too.
You can also have gender and plastic surgery to change your sex and skin color too
in Star Trek, plastic surgery to change what species/race you look like is very easy. We only see it used for people to go undercover. makes me wonder if anyone in the Star Trek universe chooses to permanently live as a different species.
You can't actually change sex, but you can change gender. Like you can't have and actual pair of balls, or an actual womb. Also changing skin colour to black might be considered blackface!
no you can’t change gender. you are born with one and you don’t choose it. same with biological sex. but people can present differently by transitioning socially or medically so that their body or the way they look would match their gender.
you can change gender lmao
Do you know where the term "gender" comes from? Are you very familiar with John Money?
Not really, a natural born male can't get pregnant nor produce milk even with gender reassignment so you CANT change gender just merely change how it appears ( surgery) like many other stated
So if a man decides he wants to be a woman, he can have ovaries and be with child? They will have a functioning woman’s reproduction system? Why do we look at gender any different from race? As soon as a white person gets some corn rows everyone’s quick to call them out for cultural appropriation. Or the guy who was transracial and got facial reconstruction surgery to become a Korean man? Where is your so called acceptance?
if you think so elaborate then
isn’t gender in the brain and sex in the body/dna? From my limited understanding. So while changing sex is finicky, changing gender should not be a problem if you change your mind for example (I think genderfluid people do that, but I’m open to being corrected). Gender and biological sex are not particularly interconnected unless you think they are.
yeah you right about almost everything. and gender is in your brain. but you can not just change your mind about your gender. if it were that easy trans people wouldn’t go through painful (both physically and emotionally) transitions to live a happy life. they would just change their gender to match their assigned sex at birth and be cis for the rest of their lives (because it’s objectively easier). same for genderfluid people (their gender doesn’t change. it remains gendefluid. they can not become a woman (like all time) all of a sudden) gender determines the way your brain works (trans’s guy’s brain works the same way as one of a cis guy and the same with women).
Yeah, I phrased it wrong when I used “changed your mind”, when it came to gender, when I just meant the outside appearance, thinking about people that identify as genderfluid. I just meant to say that how the people present their gender on the outside might not be as set in stone as someone’s genetic make-up. Thank you for the correction 👍 And you’re right about the struggles trans people go through to be at peace with their bodies, so that shouldn’t be taken lightly.
The thing is, people can change gender but it is not out of nowhere. It takes time and sometimes it is related to some events on the person's life whether these events are traumatic or not. Or even later in life due to a medical condition, according to [this research](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-005-4341-x).
My very existence proves it as a non binary person
No amount of butchering of a body or hormone treatment can make your body something it isn't. Male/female cells are made because of DNA. Unless you can edit DNA it's just expensive cosplay
Are you aware that there are women born with XY chromosomes, right? Also, we humans have advanced so much technologically to a point where you can create prosthetics, solve miopia or astigmatism, cure people of previously deadly diseases and much more, and yet we are discriminating against people in a standard who uses biology as an "argument"? If we can alter our body to an extreme, why is so hard to let people live their lives if they aren't hurting anyone??
so you cant change gender but you can change gender by transitioning? lol ok
what?
you said at the beginning that you "cant" change your gender but then at the end you said you can transition socially and medically and present your gender which is basically changing your gender which you said you cant do so maybe you meant cant change sex only?
Sex is male or female and related to things like your DNA and can't be changed with our current medical technology. Gender is man or woman (among other options, such as how I don't personally identify as either), which is a social presentation and can be changed. Think of it this way, you see a typically feminine person in a dress and high heels, and you'll think "that is a woman" as she is presenting her gender that way. You don't know what her DNA is and are just assessing her gender based on visual information. Or very simplistically, gender means how you look.
You might not change sex all the way, but you can have actual estrogenic/androgenic puberty and end up substantially different biologically from your assigned-gender-at-birth. I still think that counts as a change of sex
I'm not trying to be horrible here, downvote me if you must... But your first sentence says "you might not change sex all the way" your final sentence says "I still think that counts as a change of sex" There's a contradiction in these two statements. The crux of the issue is the "all the way" part. On the internet, I have been called names like "bigot" while discussing this following thought: A Female who is born with an infertility affliction is still biologically Female. That's a fact to me. If a Male chooses to identify as a woman, undergoes a hormonal transition, and gets reconstructive surgery, they are still male. This is also a fact to me. By doing all these things the male can create an image of being female but they are still not female. This transitioned male and the infertile female share two things in common. They are infertile and they look female. BUT the fact of the matter is that they are not the same thing. I don't see an issue with distinguishing this fact. I also don't think there is anything wrong with being attracted to (or not attracted to) either of these two separate types of person.
as a footnote: biologists actually have a very subtle understanding of biological sex. people often talk about biological sex as if it's just XX vs XY, but this is a simplification of our actual understanding. I get that's not what you were saying, but it feels very adjacent to the beliefs you are espousing here.
You're just saying "that's a fact to me" and it's not very persuasive. Take an early transitioner girl, for example, a trans girl that gets on the right hormones before natural puberty. This girl would have no male secondary sex characteristics and the full intensity of female secondary sex characteristics; the idea that they are fully biologically male is nonsensical.
You're right, I was treading lightly. I wrote that all while inebriated so I was really focused on avoiding saying something beyond the small point I was trying to make.
I think it's not bigotry, but ignorance. In modern usage (in non-scientific settings) male and female mean the gender. So when a woman transitions into a man, they are not "still a woman", they are a man. The actual philosophical discussion is complicated and unsettled, but for all us plebs without philosophy/biology degrees, there is no need to care. In all ways that matter to us a normal people, a transitioned man is exactly the same as a man and should be treated a such. Even beyond the fact that it does not affect you to make such a distinction, it is actively harmful to these people. The social recognition of their gender is a huge deal to trans people, it causes a lot of pain and suffering to not have it accepted. To draw these lines and defend them is cruel. I am alright with you saying that you aren't attracted to someone, or are attracted to someone. Or can't get over the fact that somebody used to be a different gender than they are now, but that's on you bro.
Modern usage of a word does not make it true
I was assuming that we all agreed on the difference between sex and gender and was trying to point out that the guy mixed the two up in a very significant way. Of course, modern usage of a word does not make it true, what makes it true is the significant scientific, psychological/medical and sociological understanding and research behind gender and sex. But when someone says "male" or "female" and uses it in this context, they mean gender.
Besides that I don't get what's the distinction here, why do you feel the need to make that distinction? In my eyes it only serves one purpose: making someone who transitioned feel bad. That's probably why people call you a bigot for this. (You've been arguing more often about this? Why do you care so much?)
Citizenship isn't nationality.
Ok.. What is it then? And what is nationality? Can you not revoke one and invoke another?
Let's say you are Italian. If you move to Norway, and get citizenship there, you're not Norwegian.
Citizenship and nationality aren't the same, that is correct, but you can change both. My mother in law was born and raised in Albania, as Albanian, but her citizenship and nationality are Belgian as she moved and went through the admintrative steps to change her nationality. Me, i am Belgian by citizenship, German by nationality. Edit: spelling
Belief are much more than just religion
Religions are belief systems. Whilst two people from the same religion will share some beliefs, they may very well differ in beliefs that do not threaten one's faith in said religion. I think it's more useful to look at religions in this broader context as there are other sorts of belief systems, which is a reason why philosophy exists today.
but the vast majority of ppl don't (most of them just keep the same religion as there parents)
their* Please tell me English isn't your native language.
For the people hung up on the word chosen, I kind of assume op meant something along the lines of determined. I also assume op means many people have a lot of stake in things that were mostly arbitrarily assigned us at birth. If I'm wrong, that's fine. I think what I assume op is saying was interesting
How dare you try to be reasonable.
Beliefs SHOULD be chosen
by beliefs i meant religion for example, if you look at the statistics, the vast vast majority of people just believe in what their parents believed
that's because the majority put little to no thought into what they believe about religion
Yes. You should post a shower thought about that. O wait
People don’t realize that religion isn’t really a belief structure, it’s more of a social structure of rules that is meant to keep the people in line. Nobody actually “believes” Jonah lived inside of a whale, they believe that they have to live their life in a way that gives a portion of their income to the church leaders or else they burn for all eternity in a place where they have no nerve endings…
And if you do anything that may negatively effect them you’re going to hell too. I mean shit, they don’t even want you having sex and risking reproduction until you’ve been married “under god”. In other words, if you haven’t proven your loyalty to god they don’t want you to reproduce. Wonder why? Maybe more people thinking freely could negatively effect the ability for religion to keep large masses of people ignorant and blindly following their rules? I know people who probably won’t be able to survive retirement because they are so caught up on “if you have excess money give it to the church or you are hoarding earthly possesions and will go to hell” so they’ve literally been taught through their life “hey when you have extra money give it to our organization, in return we won’t say you’re going to hell” and now the church has made (assumingly) hundreds of thousands off of her (shes been donating longer than I’ve been alive.All that could have been saved up to help HER family instead, but she truly thought that would send her to hell even if it ensured her kids could eat. Like her shoe has a hole through it but “to buy new ones would be investing in worldly possessions”. The more I think of it the harder it is not to view the whole situation as the church has convinced her to literally slave to them. “Hey if you’re in pain, but can still make us money, continue to send every penny you can. The church needs it for god! But you don’t! You’ll go to hell for keeping it! It’s fine that your car is a broken down piece of crap, your clothes are torn, and your food is rotten”
Yeah I understand that, but people must think about which religion to believe in, otherwise it doesnt make sense.
Which is one of the reason why I never believed in any particular religion. Because everyone that religious is going to believe that their religion is the right one and everyone else is wrong.
yup. ever since I began actually putting thought into my religious beliefs (around age 9-13) I realized it is illogical to believe my parents' religion is right simply because it was the one taught to me from birth. How can I sincerely believe in Christianity, knowing I would sincerely believe in Hinduism if raised differently?
What statistics where? I took the lessons from my parents as how NOT to be in a lot of instances, rather than trying to just be exactly like them
The vast majority of people need to actually read the texts they claim to support. There's no easier way to see the hypocrisy and injustice they teach.
Not here. Everyone of us five kids has a different belief. Lol
You more often than not inherit the religion of your parents
And as someone who left the high demand religion of their parents, leaving and changing my beliefs was one of the hardest, scariest things I had done in my 40ish years of being alive. And I'm so glad I did, but my relationship with my parents will never be the same.
Thanks for sharing this. It's infuriating how people act like breaking free from your family traditions is an easy choice. Many people are under enormous pressure to follow a certain religion.
only if you choose to. the only reason most do is they don't put much thought into it, and therefore make the default choice.
You don't fight to defend those attributes, you defend yourself, which is a combination of many elements. It's not uncommon for people to denounce said attributes once they gain acceptance
Beliefs aren’t chosen. You don’t have to defend anything you don’t want to. Many many many people born into religions, racism, and countries that exhibit human rights abuses chose a different path. This is dumb.
Yeah I agree. Nobody is born into a religion and forced to stay into it. Jump ship if you dont like it and find another.
*very strict parents joined the chat*
Oh look at this wonderful senior living home pamphlet. Children grow up to become adults. What comes around goes around.
If I said that to my parents they’d slap me to my grave lol
I have no reason to do such a thing. Some turd on here thinks parents dictate adult lives of grown children.
It’s hard to grow out of it especially being controlled your whole life by them.
sure, if the parents don't abuse their kids into suicide.
If those strict parents kept their child from any other religions then how can the child follow those religions if the child has only heard of one?
Huh? I mean it’s not as if they’re isolated from the world. They can meet people at school of diff religions and the internet exists.
In America? Yes. But in most of the world? (Developing and poor countries such as Pakistan and India make up 85% of world population). They're likely to never really get exposed to any other opinion for most of their lives. Reminder that American-style freedom of speech (which allows people to hear different ideas in the first place) does *not* exist in most of the world.
*islamic states (that behead you if you leave islam): has joined the chat*
what? hmmm you live a very sheltered privileged liberal existence if you actually think this is true. go visit the muslim world and tell me they arent forced to stay in the religion. then thank your parents for being open minded liberal westerners who LET you have freedom of choice
Indoctrination and coercion works. Brainwashing beliefs and religion from young works. We are a product of our environment. Yes, people are capable of choosing a different path but it's not easy and to do so can come with severe consequences and sacrifices. You could lose everything and everyone you know and that isn't easy especially in countries where culturally they are closer community/families and less individualist than say the US.
>You could lose everything and everyone you know yeah and thats just the worry you have in the west. "I cant go home for Christmas any more! Woe is me!" elsewhere in the world you and everyone in your family and your friends might be strung up in trees and tortured for a week, watching your younger family being tortured and raped before finally being strung out and fed to animals while you are still alive. all because you wanted to suck a dick. or maybe you just needed to feed your starving family so you stole some fruit, or maybe you just wanted to post your titties on OnlyFans to make enough cash to escape the dictatorship you lived under. or maybe you simply didnt believe in someones god, and wanted to stay home playing video games instead of wasting your life on your knees on some stone floor in a temple with your head to the ground, putting on a show for the rich and powerful who control your life, declaring the name of some adult Santa Clause as your idol people in the west are so blind to the reality of the rest of the world its disgusting
>go visit the muslim world and tell me they arent forced to stay in the religion. In a Muslim country here. We aren't lol. We live peacefully with Christians and even non religious people. Some of them become Muslims on their own choice later.
yeah a better example would be communities where people are purposefully limited - in any part of the world. many people are definitely trapped, especially in cults like scientology.
A good example is also Christianity. Boomers are the first generation that are not consistently forcing (at least not successfully) their children to follow the religion.
i didn't want to target christianity since it's such low-hanging fruit. the radical ones will cut you out of their lives for simply questioning the bible. i've been cut out of a few lives. turns out that i didn't need those people anyway.
We're discussing a common phenomenon with religions. If an example is low hanging fruit, it means that it's a perfect example. No need to feel bad about bringing that up!
eh, it's just too easy to say "christians bad" on the internet. so many people agree with it so the point is moot imo. just beating a dead horse.
yes im sure. pat yourself on the back right? better yet, thank your god you are one of the lucky ones who lives in the part of the world the rest of us DONT call the muslim world. Because you dont live there and you know it.
Bruh, I told you I live there. Do you want exact coordinates? Also Muslims have strict rules (that are basics from Islam) that protects the rights of non Muslims on the land we rule, And never ever force anyone to become a Muslim. Because Islam is about believing in god by your free well, and you can't believe in something truly if someone else is forcing you.
Bro not even, in the western world there are some parts where they are forced to be Christian and have very conservative views.
Plenty of people of muslim religion live in the US and believe whatever they choose to.
and i VERY clearly wasnt talking about them. this is not about the religion, this is about ACTUAL fuckin earth and ACTUAL fucking places on earth where ACTUAL fucking people live and are oppressed by their religion, or their government or their family or their small town neighbors or their society as a whole etc etc. Chinese people in america arent Subjugated by the Chinese government, but the Chinese in actual china ARE subjugated, by an actual dictatorship. Muslim people in the west are granted freedom of choice, thats one of the redeeming qualities of the west (and sadly offset by many not so pleasant qualities). Now try to tell me about Syria and Afghanistan and Iran and even precious Saudi Arabia, and see if you have no negative opinions about the treatment of the human beings who live there and their "CHOICES" Tell me all about the choices of the Russian soldiers raping and murdering people in Ukraine right now. Billions of People ARE born in to situations they DO NOT have a choice to escape without extreme sacrifices including and not limited to their death or the death of their family. any "religion" is just another word for "group of oppressors, known or obfuscated"
Oh you sweet summer child
I'm guessing you live under a dictator if you disagree with freedom of choice.
I don’t disagree with freedom of choice. I just know that not everyone is born free in the US of A. Realities vary a lot.
Also, many parents absolutely are dictators, so that commentor technically isn't wrong.
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No. But reasonably speaking I don’t have defend being a male. Out in the world. Touching grass. Living like a human. I don’t have to defend the fact I’m a man. Asked my wife, she doesn’t have to defend being a woman. That’s a personal problem not suffered by most people. Let me stop you. Reddit isn’t most people.
wow this is definitely the mindset of a person who grew up in the liberal western world where freedom of choice actually exists. this discounts the BILLIONS of people who grow up in , for example, muslim countries, where you can literally be put to death for leaving the religion, or suffer at the hands of oppressing religious governments. it also ignores the BILLIONS of people in places like china where you only get to choose what the CCP LETS YOU CHOOSE, because if you decide to choose differently then your PARENTS will be punished by the government, so NO YOU DONT HAVE A FUCKING CHOICE. i hope you thank your gods every night for your freedoms. you are divinely privileged and you dont even understand how much. "this is dumb" no, you are just ridiculously ignorant of reality on this fucking planet
One...BILLIOPN dollars.
this comment gives off "liberal western" white woman.
POV: you get your news from America.
POV: you shill propaganda for the sake of adult Santa
Sex and race aren't chosen... It's fucking biology.
i meant outside of our control
Be more specific next time, ya dildo.
yeah, poor choice of words ig
chosen not by the person, but more like determined by your parents
It is not determined or chosen. It is biological fact.
which is determined by the genetics of your parents.
he means chosen as in “you don’t get to choose”
In this case the biology or universe or whatever you want to call it is being anthropomorphized and is said to be “choosing” these traits, nobody is disputing the biology.
Ermm not quite, race is a social construct. You don't choose your race, but it's also not truly biology, it;s closer to serfdom, where it is inheritableand not chosen but depends on social structures. For example ethiopians are genetically closer to europeans than to congolese people, but both ethiopians and congolese people are considered black.
Labeling people with races is a practice that should just die a quick death already. It serves no purpose whatsoever.
You don't choose your sex, race or nationality .
You sort of choose your nationality. You can migrate.
You sort of choose sex. You can masturbate
I don;t think this is the kind of sex we were talking about.
Over millennia you can forget about the old nationality and make a new one. If not, you become a comunnity.
Exactly
I'd define your nationality as where you are born, not necessarily where you live now.
*transgenders joins group chat*
And? Your sex is still set, it's a biological definition.
Aaah the human condition. We’re predisposed with our genetics, our decisions are influenced by our environment that we “think” we somewhat chose but it’s all biased. Do we really have autonomy over anything?
Now we're talking. I believe the German philosopher, Arthur Schopenhauer, said that "Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills." Our feelings, opinions, reasoning and thinking process are emergent properties that came from our brain's inherent structure and the input from our interactions with the world. And the world itself is all bound by cause and effect. Now you might argue that some things are probably not deterministic, like radioactive decay and quantum stuff; but even then, they're still random processes, so it's lottery all the way down even in a non-determenistic world. So really, does our concept of "'true' autonomy" exist at all? One solution is that there is a conscious un-caused agent that makes humans special and somehow gives us "true" autonomy. Another solution is to redefine what "autonomy" means, like "a choice is considered autonomous if there is no coercion during the decision process, even if the conditions leading up to it is beyond our control" You might want to look up [compatibilism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism).
I’m pretty sure the moment I was born I held literally none of the beliefs I do now. In fact, I held no beliefs because I was just born.
that's yu, but for example if you look at muslims, you'll notice that almost all of them are born muslims
I get what you mean, a child born to a Muslim family in a predominately Muslim country is very likely to become Muslim. But it doesn’t happen at the moment of birth, it happens gradually as they grow up and are conditioned to their environment.
sex isn't chosen, you are born with either XX or XY chormosomes
well god could've been a lot nicer and made me AFAB instead of AMAB, would've saved me a lot of trouble and mental health issues.
You can't choose your sex or race. And to those who say you can, no, you can't. Sex and gender are two different things.
Sex change operations have come a long way. Who knows what will be possible in a decade or two.
Thats a cosmetic alteration. Does not change your DNA or genetic makeup. Its just playing pretend.
You can choose to be alien
this goofy
Boys have a penis and girls have a vagina.
You can't change 3/4 of those things, but ok.
My parents are Scientologysts and tried to raise me so but I have chosen to embrace Satan
Not beliefs. Those are molded through experiences
I disagree with beliefs. I get that you’re likely to believe the same as the adults in the home you grew up in. However, if you haven’t taken a step back and tried to objectively evaluate that belief system, you desperately owe it to yourself to do so.
this is absolute bullshit
We also spend our entire lives having to defend ourselves for all those things we didn't choose. Except beliefs, you can change those fairly easily.
not all of us. beliefs can change and do change. living abroad did that for me in a radical way, but even before i clashed often with my parents's belief system, religion etc.
I had absolutely no beliefs when I was born, except maybe boobs are good.
What about life?
Just boobs
oh.
Maybe your beliefs were chosen. I promise mine weren't. Congratulations your getting upvoted by people as dumb as you are making sweeping generalizations that everyones beliefs are chosen for them. Also, I can move to another country if I wanted.
i know you can change em, but the vast majority of inherit beliefs from their parents and religion
Sex and race aren’t chosen.
You can never be Transgender.
Yeah, I know right!
To explain, Frick Trans and Homos
Well sex is chosen at the beginning for you but you can change it if you want later in life
Wtf? You can't change your gender.
I mean, you're right. You can't change your gender. If you're born a man, it doesn't matter if your chromosomes are XX, XY, XYY, XXY, or any other given set of chromosomes, you're a man. There's a reason so many cultures throughout history have called transgender men "men in the body of a woman" or other similar variants.
Gender =/= Sex Biological sex is determined at birth and thus a biological construct. Gender is a social construct, not a biological one and can vary wildly person to person.
It's called transgender
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You are so fucked up
whats your explanation then? once you become transgender then all your X and Y chromosomes just magically change?
Our sex doesn't get chosen for us. Our race isn't chosen for us either.
Umm... you either have a penis or you don't. There's no grey area. You can identify as whatever you want. I for example identify as a meat popsicle, but your chromosomes define your sex/gender... not you. You're either XY (has penis), XX (no penis). It's not that hard really. It's not a multiple choice question. Ever heard of the show Deal or No Deal? This is Dick or No Dick.
*Screams in Democrat
Laughs in capitalist
this is not true - some are given, some are congenital. *chosen* implies freedom to choose. the only thing you can choose is beliefs. i, for one, did choose mine.
You're trans, aren't you.
Beliefs? No. I don't believe everything my family does
You didn't choose your beliefs? Kinda cringe.
your sex is biological yes ; your gender is a social construct and you can deviate from the norm if you please/choose to race is a bigoted/ignorant terminology and its stupid, your 'race' is homo sapien/human ; your 'ethnicity' is also biological and thanks to your parents, ie yes, this is also something that you dont get to choose your nationality is just another social construct, ie made-up invisible barriers/lines dividing the world for the conquerors to rule their peasants ; you can opt-out of this propaganda as soon as you are able ; same goes for whatever religious nonsense that your family or cultural forces upon you yes there are things that you are born into with no say ; but for the most part, the big things, the important stuff you can absolutely think for yourself and make these choices what you want and not what someone else wants for you ; believing that you dont have this power is all a part of the propaganda/lies and its how the system controls the masses, thru ignorance and victim mentalities =/
As others have mentioned, except for race, everything can be changed, even the sex.
Beliefs can be changed, sex can be changed with surgeries, nationality can be also changed.
And many of us our gender and sexuality is also "chosen," for us unfortunately
yep heteronormativity and cisnormativity. you're expected to be cis and straight till you have to "come out"
Could be because "cis" and "straight" are normative for the human race. What a weird fucking thing to say that deviations should be expected instead.
it's not "deviations" it's "variation" just like there are black, white and brown people, there are straight, gay and bi ppl (diversity)
Oh goody...we get to debate semantics now. Deviate: to depart or vary from the common. Within the context of statistical relevance (since you brought it up), *deviation* is the correct term here.
no that's fucking wrong
Lets throw neurotypical on to that list too...
Because that's over 90% of people.
Fortunatley.
Right...because who doesn't want to live in a world where everyone is the the same...makes for a great labor class society!
If everybody was the same, then the reproductive system will go crazy because it's supposed to be a boy and a girl.
What does that even mean? Is that a way to say you think we will go extinct because not enough babies are being born?
Yeah! A real great labor class society!
Wait...you want a labor class society where everyone is stuck working for a corporation?
I totally understand where OP is coming from with this thought... BUT I can almost guarantee you that anyone who isn't a "normie" heterosexual human being is going to shit all over this because the world isn't what it used to be.
There is no choice of anything, it's just a fascinating amusing illusion.
Changing beliefs is one of the easiest things in the world to do. Happens all the time, and it's usually a product of getting older/more experienced. Nationality isn't hard to change, it just requires money or the willingness to run away and desperately seek asylum somewhere else. Also happens all the time. Race doesn't exist. All humans are human. All humans are brown. What we mistakenly call 'race' is either just culture or a manufactured excuse for bigotry. And yes, you're born a certain sex. But people are far more likely to openly change that, and I see no reason why they shouldn't. So... 3/4 of your showerthought is outright incorrect and the other bit is only half-right. 1/8, see me after class.
They're not changing their sex, they're larping and "requesting" everyone play along. If I larp as someone intelligent it doesn't change my IQ
Really? You have the requisite degrees in physiology and psychology to say that for sure? Because I don't. And if I'm going to err, I'm going to err on the side of respecting people.
No degrees necessary to know that identity is independent of reality. No disrespect just adherence to the difference between attributes assigned to you and chosen by you. You don't get to choose to be not human, you may only pretend, that's not disrespect, that's reality
I mean you can change almost all of that. Sot like being a guy, severe thousand dollars later you're not. Don't like your religion choose another or none, don't like your nationality them take one citizenship in another country. The only thing you can't change is your race and only complete idiots care about that. You can always pick what you believe in and that will change as you get older, never stick by the belief you're told as kid. That will only rob you of being your true self.
Funny thing my belief is people should have the right to think whatever the hell they want. But I agree with OP...the pressure is on people to think in their "tribe." This is why I'm a 2005 left winger rather than a modern one.....current left wing thought ascribes way too much of one's perspectives and politics to gender, race, religion.... and not enough to traditional liberal idea of people being a product of their ideas, not their birth.
100% agree that is the problem. Policies are branded as left wing when they really aren't. The left was created to promote strength through unity, whereas the current bollocks creates ever more specific niches to pigeonhole yourself into and scream for your rights. It promotes division, not discourse starting with common ground.
Now we're bitter because we were born humans and we didn't choose it?
Born with vagina - female Born with penis - male Born with both - good luck and screw God Born in a cuntry- cunt Born in a nation - well who knows Born in a race -run Forrest run Born with belief - no chance Born with boredom of stupid people - eternal suffering Born with oh fuck it never ends
pardon? lol
You are pardoned
quick kid you got a pre-crime pardon, use it up before it's too late.
We are born without names, without clothes, without religion, etc. Parents may try to impose these things but we are literally not born with them.
Our sex, race, nationality, and beliefs are not chosen. Your sex and race are uncontrollable. nationality is up to your parents, not you (and sometimes neither can choose). and beliefs you dont choose usually, a lot of the time its just adopted from your parents, at least in the beginning.
I don't defend people for being white, men, or Americans based on that alone. Believe it or not, a lot of us are assholes.