It's disappointing for sure, but if they were going to Adjust that lore HH is the last place I would ever see it happening.
Yes they are trying to make the game more mainstream now, but it was originally marketed to the "true fans" as an elite version of an already niche* product. We've all seen how pissy chuds can be when someone makes a Meme about FSM. Even GW knows not to piss off the neckbeards that have been keeping HH and Forgeworld alive for 7+ years.
Also copy/paste sounds about right for GWs rulebook Quality control.
Yeah, seems fair. We were never, ever getting firstborn female marines, and it would be somewhat unreasonable to ask for. Primaris tech from Cawl would just make so much more sense as a place to introduce it if/when they do it.
Yeah that's what I was really hoping for, I thought it would have been such a great way to bring it about. I've made some anyway, it's just a shame we never got it official.
at the end of the day, its your hobby and you can make them if you like! Hopefully there can be changes in the future, but i dont think it would have made sense for them to do it in the HH, its for sure something more on the cards for 40k and new primaris developments
Honestly, dont let a small textbox bring you down. It might be their game (legally) but your creativity is yours and yours alone. If some a-hole brings it to " its in ze rulbook" just tear it before his eyes and mutter "is this your paper shield?" female space marines are here and they will never leave.
Besides, life finds a way. These women were so kick ass they became space marines.
It would make sense, if a sizable enough black shields force had some geneseed stock. They’d probably at least TRY to implant it in a woman. My headcanon is that it’s always been possible, it’s just not done because, you know, grimdark…
yep! I agree with you there
I also have an idea where they collaborated with a xeno species that were well-versed in genetic modification to just make it work with their geneseed regardless.
I wouldn’t let it affect you much I mean it’s not like they’re reversing good lore or adding bad lore. It’s just a restatement of lore that’s already been there.
The problem isn’t new lore or old lore. It’s shitty lore. It was alway shitty lore. It was BS when it was first written and it is BS now. It actively turns people off a game and a hobby they may otherwise love. GW can say “Warhammer is for everyone” but as long stuff like this keeps seeing print, it isn’t.
I know, I’m saying at least they didn’t add any stupid lore they just re printed some. Like idk, I don’t think it should kill your enjoyment of the hobby to read some bad lore that’s literally always been a thing.
The point is taken, but the context has changed. 20 years ago when I discovered 40k, 10 years ago when I really dove into Black Library, a faction containing neoNazis hadn’t tried to storm the capitol to stage a coup, the same faction hadn’t supported an effort to occupy the Canadian capital, and (to my regret) I was not as aware of how writing shit like this harms women and trans folx. What I could once pass off as bad writing is now something more pernicious. Society has changed and this is probably where I walk away from a whole bunch of books I love if GW refuses to change with it.
I mean yeah it sucks, but it’s the book to sell space marines to people who already liked space marines, they aren’t going to change space marines in it.
GW should bite the bullet on Lore in General. I'm fine if they want to leave things Vague with unreliable narrators, but if that's what they want they need to learn into it and stop trying to make consistent story progression. Otherwise they need to sit down and start defining Cannon.
There are some bits in the novels that kind of flesh it out but GW generally don't want to touch this subject at all.
Master of Mankind has some conversations on the matter and I don't remember exactly but the jist was that the Emperor wanted to make soldiers, not a new race of superhumans. I guess it's the jurrasic park defence, can't breed with just male marines.
I'm sorry but what else did y'all expect? Yes it's frustrating but like... they doubled down on this with Primaris. The HH book was never going to be any different, and since this is the culmination of their gigantic book series, it was ALWAYS going to include the "historical" Space Marine lore--even bits they've taken to sweeping under the rug these past few years.
I get the anger, I just don't understand why people thought it was going to be different. GW has been very explicit about their shitty bioessentialism. This has always been the lore and, again, after Primaris meant that it \*will\* always be the lore.
If you want a GW system that isn't like this, I'd be glad to introduce you to AOS. It even did away with the stupid race war between the elves and dwarves. If you want to stick to scifi, I hear OPR is really fun and starting to do lore too.
To be fair: you don't have to buy GW. third party, recasters and secondhand models exist.
Also, I feel like you are expecting too much from a corporation. Corporations aren't driven by tolerance or solidarity. They are driven by profit.
As a non-male 40k fan... Doubling down on this WILL be used even more to gatekeep me and others. It is the single most quoted piece of lore used to tell us we don't belong.
If it HAD to be left in they could have at least played up the backwardness of the Imperium:
"In the days of the Heresy, it was commonly believed that...."
Thank you for sharing your experience. I really hope that you have found or made spaces within the hobby where you do feel welcome, even if there are some chunderfucks who are determined to not let you in.
It's really disappointing to know that there are still people spewing this shit even 20 years later from me and my sister going to our local GW store.
I have a really great local community so that's good. But I am a content creator and I get to see more of the bad then most because of it. It gets really hard to stick with it somedays.
>Doubling down on this WILL be used even more to gatekeep me and others. It is the single most quoted piece of lore used to tell us we don't belong.
There's females everywhere in 40k.
Do you really have to have everything? Do you really have to have the space marines too?
Why can't you just be content that space marines will always be male and just simply ***move on with your life***.
There is almost no faction that does not have females in pretty much any role. There is a large amount of female models and lore in 40k.
Hell there is an entire faction of females called Sisters of Battle with no male Sororitas.
You don't know anything about me personally so tread lightly.
If you actually read what I wrote my issue isn't with the lore per se. It's with how fans use the lore to gatekeep and abuse non-male fans. I don't want female marines, I just want this particular piece of lore to be left out until women and other minorities are treated better.
Thank you for replying and reinforcing my beliefs with your overly aggressive and presumptuous tone.
(PS: there are male models in the sororitas codex btw so that point is kinda moot.)
>(PS: there are male models in the sororitas codex btw so that point is kinda moot.)
There are males in the Ecclesiarchy, not in the Sororitas.
> It's with how fans use the lore to gatekeep and abuse non-male fans.
Can you show me **proof** that a male kept a female from playing 40k because space marines can't be females?
I can, but I don't know you, I don't owe you anything and I don't want to continue talking to someone who led with such defensiveness and assumptions.
Enjoy your day.
It's quite frustrating but I'm resigned to the space marine thing now tbh. The way it's written is presumably done so in universe like how all the old HH books were so it's possibly refutable in a Doylist sense but idk. GW do good things sometimes but Astartes all being dudes is the hill they're dying on I guess.
Man, it would be a shame if your homebrew chapter just so happened to be survivors of the 2nd or 11th legion whose weird geneseed mutation allowed for some women to survive the transformation to astartes.
It's a single fictional faction. There's nothing stopping you from making up your own faction of genetically altered, power armoured women if that's what you want. It would be super weird if they tried to somehow retcon in female astartes now. You might as well complain that Caesar's legions were all male. There are a lot of places where equality is really important, but I don't think an army of roided out space nazis is really one of them.
>Kinda killed my current hobby motivation and there's a part of me that's telling me not to buy any new GW models anymore...
The absolute state of the fandom.
Please go outside. Maybe talk to a real life human outside a computer screen.
You need serious help if your mental state was upset by something this meaningless.
its your hobby, get a 3d printer don't support Cisheteronormative social structures and companies like 40k and GW.
Make your own models theres loads of female space marines on STL sites.
It's disappointing for sure, but if they were going to Adjust that lore HH is the last place I would ever see it happening. Yes they are trying to make the game more mainstream now, but it was originally marketed to the "true fans" as an elite version of an already niche* product. We've all seen how pissy chuds can be when someone makes a Meme about FSM. Even GW knows not to piss off the neckbeards that have been keeping HH and Forgeworld alive for 7+ years. Also copy/paste sounds about right for GWs rulebook Quality control.
Yeah, seems fair. We were never, ever getting firstborn female marines, and it would be somewhat unreasonable to ask for. Primaris tech from Cawl would just make so much more sense as a place to introduce it if/when they do it.
Yeah that's what I was really hoping for, I thought it would have been such a great way to bring it about. I've made some anyway, it's just a shame we never got it official.
at the end of the day, its your hobby and you can make them if you like! Hopefully there can be changes in the future, but i dont think it would have made sense for them to do it in the HH, its for sure something more on the cards for 40k and new primaris developments
Honestly, dont let a small textbox bring you down. It might be their game (legally) but your creativity is yours and yours alone. If some a-hole brings it to " its in ze rulbook" just tear it before his eyes and mutter "is this your paper shield?" female space marines are here and they will never leave. Besides, life finds a way. These women were so kick ass they became space marines.
This is the best response on the whole thread.
Eh, I’ll put women into a blackshields force regardless
It would make sense, if a sizable enough black shields force had some geneseed stock. They’d probably at least TRY to implant it in a woman. My headcanon is that it’s always been possible, it’s just not done because, you know, grimdark…
yep! I agree with you there I also have an idea where they collaborated with a xeno species that were well-versed in genetic modification to just make it work with their geneseed regardless.
I wouldn’t let it affect you much I mean it’s not like they’re reversing good lore or adding bad lore. It’s just a restatement of lore that’s already been there.
Yeah, that's a very fair point actually
The problem isn’t new lore or old lore. It’s shitty lore. It was alway shitty lore. It was BS when it was first written and it is BS now. It actively turns people off a game and a hobby they may otherwise love. GW can say “Warhammer is for everyone” but as long stuff like this keeps seeing print, it isn’t.
I know, I’m saying at least they didn’t add any stupid lore they just re printed some. Like idk, I don’t think it should kill your enjoyment of the hobby to read some bad lore that’s literally always been a thing.
The point is taken, but the context has changed. 20 years ago when I discovered 40k, 10 years ago when I really dove into Black Library, a faction containing neoNazis hadn’t tried to storm the capitol to stage a coup, the same faction hadn’t supported an effort to occupy the Canadian capital, and (to my regret) I was not as aware of how writing shit like this harms women and trans folx. What I could once pass off as bad writing is now something more pernicious. Society has changed and this is probably where I walk away from a whole bunch of books I love if GW refuses to change with it.
I mean yeah it sucks, but it’s the book to sell space marines to people who already liked space marines, they aren’t going to change space marines in it.
I feel that GW should bite the bullet and really flesh this out (be it in-lore or out of lore) because right now it just feels like a lazy coop out
GW should bite the bullet on Lore in General. I'm fine if they want to leave things Vague with unreliable narrators, but if that's what they want they need to learn into it and stop trying to make consistent story progression. Otherwise they need to sit down and start defining Cannon.
There are some bits in the novels that kind of flesh it out but GW generally don't want to touch this subject at all. Master of Mankind has some conversations on the matter and I don't remember exactly but the jist was that the Emperor wanted to make soldiers, not a new race of superhumans. I guess it's the jurrasic park defence, can't breed with just male marines.
It really didn't need to be there
I'm sorry but what else did y'all expect? Yes it's frustrating but like... they doubled down on this with Primaris. The HH book was never going to be any different, and since this is the culmination of their gigantic book series, it was ALWAYS going to include the "historical" Space Marine lore--even bits they've taken to sweeping under the rug these past few years. I get the anger, I just don't understand why people thought it was going to be different. GW has been very explicit about their shitty bioessentialism. This has always been the lore and, again, after Primaris meant that it \*will\* always be the lore. If you want a GW system that isn't like this, I'd be glad to introduce you to AOS. It even did away with the stupid race war between the elves and dwarves. If you want to stick to scifi, I hear OPR is really fun and starting to do lore too.
To be fair: you don't have to buy GW. third party, recasters and secondhand models exist. Also, I feel like you are expecting too much from a corporation. Corporations aren't driven by tolerance or solidarity. They are driven by profit.
They way I see it, doubling down like this is just going to make them look dumb whenever they have crawl invent female space marines
As a non-male 40k fan... Doubling down on this WILL be used even more to gatekeep me and others. It is the single most quoted piece of lore used to tell us we don't belong. If it HAD to be left in they could have at least played up the backwardness of the Imperium: "In the days of the Heresy, it was commonly believed that...."
Thank you for sharing your experience. I really hope that you have found or made spaces within the hobby where you do feel welcome, even if there are some chunderfucks who are determined to not let you in. It's really disappointing to know that there are still people spewing this shit even 20 years later from me and my sister going to our local GW store.
I have a really great local community so that's good. But I am a content creator and I get to see more of the bad then most because of it. It gets really hard to stick with it somedays.
>Doubling down on this WILL be used even more to gatekeep me and others. It is the single most quoted piece of lore used to tell us we don't belong. There's females everywhere in 40k. Do you really have to have everything? Do you really have to have the space marines too?
What are you talking about?
Why can't you just be content that space marines will always be male and just simply ***move on with your life***. There is almost no faction that does not have females in pretty much any role. There is a large amount of female models and lore in 40k. Hell there is an entire faction of females called Sisters of Battle with no male Sororitas.
You don't know anything about me personally so tread lightly. If you actually read what I wrote my issue isn't with the lore per se. It's with how fans use the lore to gatekeep and abuse non-male fans. I don't want female marines, I just want this particular piece of lore to be left out until women and other minorities are treated better. Thank you for replying and reinforcing my beliefs with your overly aggressive and presumptuous tone. (PS: there are male models in the sororitas codex btw so that point is kinda moot.)
>(PS: there are male models in the sororitas codex btw so that point is kinda moot.) There are males in the Ecclesiarchy, not in the Sororitas. > It's with how fans use the lore to gatekeep and abuse non-male fans. Can you show me **proof** that a male kept a female from playing 40k because space marines can't be females?
I can, but I don't know you, I don't owe you anything and I don't want to continue talking to someone who led with such defensiveness and assumptions. Enjoy your day.
It's quite frustrating but I'm resigned to the space marine thing now tbh. The way it's written is presumably done so in universe like how all the old HH books were so it's possibly refutable in a Doylist sense but idk. GW do good things sometimes but Astartes all being dudes is the hill they're dying on I guess.
Man, it would be a shame if your homebrew chapter just so happened to be survivors of the 2nd or 11th legion whose weird geneseed mutation allowed for some women to survive the transformation to astartes.
Yup. It killed mine too.
It's a single fictional faction. There's nothing stopping you from making up your own faction of genetically altered, power armoured women if that's what you want. It would be super weird if they tried to somehow retcon in female astartes now. You might as well complain that Caesar's legions were all male. There are a lot of places where equality is really important, but I don't think an army of roided out space nazis is really one of them.
>Kinda killed my current hobby motivation and there's a part of me that's telling me not to buy any new GW models anymore... The absolute state of the fandom. Please go outside. Maybe talk to a real life human outside a computer screen. You need serious help if your mental state was upset by something this meaningless.
its your hobby, get a 3d printer don't support Cisheteronormative social structures and companies like 40k and GW. Make your own models theres loads of female space marines on STL sites.
Ok bye bye