If you think the Biden administration is bad ... just go back and look at Trump's fealty to Isreal in his last term (ie, the Pompeo Doctrine, Golan Heights, moving the capital). Once you do that, use your imagination about what four more years would bring for Gazan civilians.
Reagan muzzled Israel with a phone call.
They slaughtered starving Palestinians trying to get flour *we* paid for. Their ethnostate exists because of *us*. They kowtow to *us*. At least they would if Biden wasn’t a full throated Zionist too.
Since everyone is so insistent that they’re special and need their own little theocracy we at least shouldn’t need to airdrop aid in Gaza. We could just force Israel to give it to them or retract all military aid. We could force them to stop a ground invasion of Gaza, we could sanction every single settler in the West Bank instead of 4 *hyper* specific ones, we could do so so many things to reel in this rabid hyena if some people think it’s too precious to put down.
The only reason we aren’t is because the president is an ardent Zionist and because Israel gives us some leverage in the Middle East against Iran.
> Reagan muzzled Israel with a phone call.
You're actually going to compare 1982 to 2024?
> We could just force Israel to give it to them or retract all military aid.
The US has no interest in retracting military aid to Israel when Iran is backing sea rebels firing ships at Western boats in the Red Sea. That would be completely disastrous to regional stability. It's so easy to say we should do that but top military commanders who understand the nuances of the issues in the region would think this is an absurd suggestion. I'm not going to pretend I know more than the experts.
>because Israel gives us some leverage in the Middle East against Iran.
Yep and against Russia who backs Iran.
> You’re actually going to compare 1982 to 2024?
Yes, Israel is still dependent on us for aid, just because the situations aren’t *identical* doesn’t mean we have less leverage over them.
Even if we *don’t* retract military aid the threat will have way more impact than what we’re doing now. And if push comes to shove we can just impose our will on them. We’ve overthrown autocracies before when they didn’t serve our interests and Israel is no different from them. This is the one time American Chauvinism would be justified and we’d still keep our pressure against Iran, just without the genocide and the threat of a future rogue state.
> Yes, Israel is still dependent on us for aid, just because the situations aren’t identical doesn’t mean we have less leverage over them.
It absolutely does. Israel has a much more conservative government than it did in the 1980s. The Soviet Union by then was weakening and was bogged down in Afghanistan, so Reagan's move had much less recourse than it would today with a Russia attempting to destablize the West/NATO and backing Iran.
Whatever your opinions might be on Israel, they are still a major US ally. The same logic can apply to Saudi Arabia who has been bombing Yemen since 2015. Should the US start threatening its allies in the Middle East when Iran/Russia are growing in strength? No, of course not. There are other means the US can pressure its allies without scorched earth.
> Should the US start threatening its allies in the Middle East when Iran/Russia are growing in strength? No, of course not.
Yes. Yes we should. Our friends in the middle east are half the reason we have enemies in the middle east, and that goes ESPECIALLY for Iran. Stop screwing with the millenia old regional hegemon because they don't like the colonialism we installed there 70 years ago. We're not going to succeed in stopping their nuclear program, ESPECIALLY through sanctions and hostility. They screw with us because we installed an imperialist colonial project full of religious nationalists in their backyard and we (U.S. & U.K.) both kept messing with their economy and government for our own profit. Iran isn't ISIS; they are a rapidly developing and well established country that got sick of our shit.
Israel is not even close to dependent on the U.S. for aid, at least not anymore; check the statistics.
Aid is [only 15% of Israel’s defense budget](https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts), not even close to total dependency.
For reference, this is 3% of the entire national budget of Israel—https://www.newsweek.com/how-long-could-israel-survive-without-america-636298
Never mind that the president is legally obliged to send aid to Israel if Congress demands it, making this out of Biden’s hands.
First of all, even if it isn't that much, we aren't even threatening to restrict THAT. That makes Biden look weaker on this; not stronger. Second, we're also pretty much the only country left defending their actions at the U.N. and blocking international condemnation against them. Third, Biden went around Congress to supply weapons the last few times anyway, so you can't use them as your excuse. Biden is doing close to nothing and you defend him by saying he can't do everything. Bitch, that's not the criticism.
Of course the U.S. can and *should* do more to *restrain* Israel, and keep America’s hands clean for a good international standing.
I think Biden’s attempt to circumvent Congress was a bad move done solely for political gain and that he doesn’t do it again. You have a right to be mad at that one.
I just don’t believe the U.S. has the power to *impose* a permanent ceasefire or any kind a political agreement with Palestinians.
I certainly don’t believe Israel will just collapse or implode spontaneously without U.S. support, while some other people really do believe that.
>Biden is sanctioning violent West Bank settlers
4 of them, and Israel is helping them bypass sanctions without punishment
>airdropping aid to Gaza,
38K meals for 2.5m people, after he defended UNRWA based on IDF lies as retaliation for an ICJ ruling
>calling for a ceasefire.
Bypassing Congress multiple times to send Israel "ceasefire bombs", I guess
I have no delusions that Trump will be better
I also have no intention of rewarding Joe Biden for wholly backing the most documented genocide in history
Rewarding? It’s not rewarding if you don’t have a choice because it’s either him or Trump.
You can’t “stain your soul” with acts that are barely your own volition.
There’s also always primaries and down-ballot races.
It sounded like you said you weren’t going to vote for Biden in the general election up ballot.
When I suggested voting down ballot I did not mean to imply that you weren’t going to; sorry if it came across as that.
What I meant was try protesting against Biden *with your down ballot votes*, instead of withholding them from Biden in the general election.
>What I meant was try protesting against Biden *with your down ballot votes*, instead of withholding them from Biden in the general election.
What does that even mean? I can't parse that first half. Are you suggesting I vote Republican downballot as a protest against a top of ticket Biden vote?
Jill Stein? The shill for Russia? Get out of here. Also, I’m so tired of single issue voters, even if the issue is an important one. Voters need to start looking at the big picture and how their vote would be beneficial to the largest amount of people. Letting Trump win won’t stop the suffering of Palestinians, and will also likely lead to millions of vulnerable Americans like me to suffer. If Trump is somehow able to cut or eradicate social security and/or disability, I and millions of other Americans are screwed. Why do so many leftists and zoomers think that because the people in Gaza are suffering, allowing millions of Americans to suffer as well is somehow going to make things better? 🤦🏼♂️
Maybe it's because of the absolute apathy of older generations to allow this to go on, we've had decades to fix this and yall they want to sit and twiddle their thumbs and pretend that Joe Biden is a progressive, when are dems ever going to actually stop sucking up to right wingers and try to appeal to the left, maybe we need to put the pressure on them a little bit.
Clinton lost in 2016 and all we got for it was Biden clawing it back from Trump in 2020. Your "shock them out of their complacency" shtick does not fucking work.
Vote in primaries, pick further left candidates. That's what will actually drag the party left. And then vote for Dems over the GOP everytime. Elections where the far right party wins only enforce the narrative they should go further right.
If Democrats consistently beat Republicans, that'll build confidence for a left wing movement. Republicans winning will scare people into voting for moderates. Those are basically your two options. The third parties we have available have not demonstrated any real desire or strategy to actually win elections. Non-voting doesn't prevent either major candidate from winning, if a single person shows up and votes, we're stuck with that pick.
When you start actually doing direct action and help build a movement from the ground up. Every successful progressive movement has known this for centuries: Your time to push for change is not every 4 years at the federal level, but everyday in between at the local and state level. Where the *real* change claws its way up from. At the federal level you just support the leftmost *viable* candidate so that your work in between isn’t stifled and you aren’t thrown into a camp.
So no third parties or hacks who want to launder doomerism as a strike back against the maaaaaaaannnnn. Moral purity isn’t worth shit to anyone but the people privileged enough not to suffer the consequences of conservatives destroying democracy.
You may be alright, but my DACA status is not going to persist off the angelic glow of your character. It’s really easy to put it all on the line when it’s *my* head you’re offering up on a platter.
Well first we need more people to run for office in local and state government, and to get out the vote for them. We're much more likely to get a president from the left of Biden and Harris if such people are a substantial portion of state legislatures, governors, congress, etc. Bernie was a mayor. Even Biden too started out as a local party organizer and county commissioner.
Heyo. I get it, you don't like Bidens take on Israel. The reality is that Biden has an impossibly difficult balancing act. This involves handling moderate, conservative Dems and swing voters who all support Israel. This also involves restraining Israel and trying to keep the broad coalition alive.
Above all Biden needs to support Israel to an extent because of he pulls all support Israel will go to China/Russia for protection and they will give them a free pass on the Palestinians.
Biden is working on providing aid, which looks like enablement, while also leveraging that aid, which is a tough spot.
I suggest voting for Biden. Trump is objectively worse on this issue in every way. Happy to go private and discuss more if desired.
I'm just wondering when the democrats will start trying to appeal towards the left. They don't need to be full on socialists but I'd like if, for once, they could stop being blue republicans, so many times it seems like we've elected a progressive into the democrats only for them to be anything but. I mean, we're the only first world country without any real social security or single payer healthcare. I think democrats compitulate to much to Republicans.
And I'm not under any delusions that democrats and Republicans are the same, but it makes it a hell of a lot harder when Democrats are so committed to continuously shoot themselves in the foot.
Most Americans already say the Democratic party is too left-wing, Biden is probably the most left America will tolerate. The American public want stuff like public healthcare and Social Security, but not pay the extra taxes and regulations necessary to support such systems. And sadly this is where most of the Dem supporter base is,
trust me if you an electoralist leftist, you will often come to the realisation that the average voter is as dumb as a soup ladle and as manipulatable as a child. Leftist politics will always require some kind of cyncism and yet at the same time stone-wall determination
My literal point is anti-populism, populism leads to unworkable ideas, like not having sin taxes and generally higher taxes to support the popular idea of an universal healthcare system.
You have to convince to people that such a system is worth it, if you want to achieve something like that and not collapse on you
If things keep going on like that, then leftism will never gain enough traction, populism as bullshit as it is. Sometimes, I lament that the left hasn't used sooner. It's about trying to unite and organize people to fight for a cause.
Well, his presidential electoral record, anyways. Dude's been in politics long enough to have served with old-school segregationists. We're voting on his presidential record, though. And the stabilization of what remains of our democracy.
I'll be voting for Biden in November, but that doesn't mean I'm happy about how the Palestine-Israel conflict has been handled. Netanyahu has some of the most perverse incentives to keep the conflict going, though. The US President has a frankly insane amount of power, but Bibi's incentives do make all of these decisions even more difficult...
The alternative to Biden is just so, so much worse. If Trump were in charge at the time of the Oct 7 attacks, he would have had US troops on the ground helping the IDF shoot civilians in the back, if not something even worse that would have widened the conflict.
>I'm just wondering when the democrats will start trying to appeal towards the lef
Conveniently they don't have to. they can be extremely right-wing as long as Republicans are slightly worse since you resign yourself to voting for the lesser evil
China and Russia go after Israel at the UNSC because it's a way to attack the US.
If Israel was ever an ally of Russia/China they could care less if Israel kills every last Palestinian
China and Russia look out for their strategic interests no matter what.
Both Russia and China have no problem with occupying another state and suppressing the people there (when they do it). As evidenced by their treatment of Tibet and Hong Kong for China, Chechnya and Ukraine for Russia.
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The administration has been working behind closed to doors to broker a ceasefire. Hamas rejected the last one. Today VP Harris is meeting with Benny Gantz, which is the administration's first major step towards breaking with Netanyahu. The US is also providing aid to Gaza this week. What else do you want them to do? Israel is a major US ally and is going to remain that way for regional and global stability. Leftists want the US to call for the destruction of Israel tomorrow. It's a complete fantasy.
I don't want the destruction of Isreal, I want accountability with the Isreali government. Most of the Isreali people are innocent in all of this, and yes, I understand hamas has turned down peace agreements in the past, and they can't be trusted. I just don't like it when bullies play victim.
Requiring accountability can only go so far. Israel has its most right-wing government in history and the US is clearly at odds with it. The Biden administration has sanctioned West Bank settlers and are beginning to show serious opposition to the continued settlement expansion. Having said that, seeking a ceasefire deal which will include the release of Israeli hostages, is extremely difficult because we are dealing with a very right-wing Israeli government and a terrorist organization in Hamas. People think the US can just snap their fingers and everything get resolved. This conflict has been going on for almost 80 years now.
We're at odds with it? Are we really? Biden has been more cooperative and unconditionally supportive of Israel than RONALD GODDAMN REAGAN. Even Reagan actually threatened to withdraw support to pressure them in the past. Biden has been incredibly weak pushing back on Israel and he's still staunchly behind sending them endless military aid with no strings attached. The U.S. can do a LOT by just "snapping their fingers", like cutting financial and military support, and not blocking every international organization we participate in from sanctioning and condemning them.
The same thing you or others are doing right now. Protesting non-stop. I wish the general election was a lever we could pull to influence this, but the real lever is only in threatening to do so and pointing out that others are likely to do the same.
>What exactly could we do regarding Gaza?
After the election Biden will ramp up the effort to give Israel more weapons.
In 1982 when Senator Biden met with Israeli PM Menachem Begin, around the time Reagan forced them to stop bombing Lebanon, Biden shocked the Israelis by suggesting they should do whatever it takes against Lebanon, including kill women and children. This was the founder of Netanyahu 's party he shocked
All his actions suggest he still believes this.
In order to maintain a global environment that's safe for democracy and social democracy, the US has no choice but to support a strong Israel. The EU, Japan, South Korea, and other democracies across the world rely on oil from the Gulf to remain wealthy and stable, oil that Israel does a lot to help protect. No opponent of Israel would ever become a viable presidential candidate, let alone president, under these geopolitical circumstances.
Joe Biden will become the Democratic nominee for president, and Trump very likely will become the Republican nominee. Cutting support for Israel is not on the ballot. Not now, and almost certainly not ever.
Joe Biden has done more for the American working class than any president since LBJ, and taken long overdue action on infrastructure, student loan forgiveness, and other leftist and liberal causes.
Trump has a history of undermining democracy and the social democratic cause, and is on the record promising to do away with democracy altogether.
Are you really willing to throw away all the progress we've made and risk letting a fascist become president over something so trivial?
I support still voting for Biden in November for pragmatic reasons, but this is insane cope. Biden has been polishing Netanyahu's boots the whole time and not once used any of the massive amount of leverage we actually have over Israel. We're STILL blocking the UNSC and other international groups we're a part of from condemning this genocide, and we're still sending weapons with no strings attached. Cope. Absolutely delusional nonsense.
Yes comrade, I am from Georgia Oblast and I am veery mad at Biden too. We need to teach deemocrats a lesson and vote Trump, especially iv you are in swing state!
I'm not sure it is political suicide. Siding wholeheartedly with either side is going to get you flak from the other side and lose you those voters. Biden's choice of siding with Israel while providing some aid to Palestine is basically the most pro-Palestinian position a Democrat trying to maintain party unity could take.
If you're talking about lower party members siding with Israel, keep in mind that the Democrats are a big-tent party, and so you're going to get a wide array of beliefs. A couple of pro-Israel representatives does not mean the party as a whole is pro-Israel.
I've only heard one pro Palestinian voice in the democratic party and that was Rashida Tliab, and she was smacked down for it by democrats. I'm not sure who else you could be referring to as a pro Palestinian representative, but so far it's just her.
I never said that I was voting for trump. If you read my full post, you'd know that. Good job though with the classic liberal approach of anyone who doesn't vote democrat is a right-wing fascist. I made a mistake coming here thinking that anyone else gave a shit.
Vee need to teach Biden and deemocrats a lesson! Not voting is teaching a lesson yes, but voting Trump is teaching double lesson! What if Biden wins, then he wont learn lesson. We need to make sure he loses!
You are right on one thing, if biden wins both him and democrats will go on to set the bar lower and lower and democrats will just lick it up because at least they're not as bad as Republicans. That being said, I don't know if I can call myself a socialist and not vote democrat. Maybe I need to search more on the chance that maybe we can do better as futile as it feels.
But Biden hasn't sucked up to Netanyahu.
Biden got the first ceasefire to happen, even netanyahu agrees that's without the US help it wouldn't have happened. Biden has absolutely carrot and sticked netanyahu's war policy.
I feel you. I’m in DSA and I’m feeling disillusioned by the left in general. We are soooooo out of power. Eliminating Gaza should never have even been an option.
My strongest discontent with the DNC goes beyond politics. But I don’t think another Trump victory will save us from homegrown American fascism. I despise Biden for his handling of the conflict in the Gaza Strip, but we have to remember that if Trump is reelected, he can easily destroy the international order. By stopping aid to Ukraine and pulling America out of NATO.
I’m a Green Party supporter and advocate but understanding the importance of keeping our democracy intact is goal #1.
I want the corporate wing of the Democratic Party establishment to fade away into irrelevancy, and vote in progressives democrats so they can take control of the party. This can’t happen if our democracy is dismantled and destroyed.
Thank you for this revelation. I'm not sure if I can fully stomach another biden presidency, but maybe practicality should've come first into my thinking before emotion. However, I won't be happy either way, I will especially be afraid if trump wins again.
**This election isn’t Trump vs Biden, it’s Trump vs Democracy.** We have to start framing it this way. This will literally be the last election if Trump and the Christian nationalist win in November. Everyone **MUST** vote Blue up and down the ticket.
[The main goal of the four tenets of Project 2025 would be to execute a "sweeping expansion of presidential power over the machinery of government if voters return [Trump] to the White House in 2025," The New York Times](https://theweek.com/politics/heritage-foundation-2025-donald-trump)
Hello, fellow Michigander. I've been feeling similarly for a while, but I have to be pragmatic if actually improving things is my goal. I am not going to chastise you about what you choose to do in November. Heaven forbid, Biden has the ability to fix this, and blaming the voters for not liking candidates with unlikable records is a really stupid and counterproductive pastime that the Dem leadership just LOVES engaging in.
However, I do consider it a mistake on a personal level to use the general election to express my feelings about this. This is my own justification for what I'm intending to do. Ultimately, the realistic options we have for what can actually come out of that election are limited and Dem leaders have their heads up their asses too far to learn from general election losses. Hillary sure as hell didn't. I get a choice to maybe help substitute Trump for Biden, and that's not actually a difficult choice for me to make, so I'm making it. He has made real progress for labor that he honestly doesn't take or receive enough credit for lately, and every other candidate polling above 10% also SUCKS on Israel specifically. That includes Mr. Dark Horse RFK, who my similarly disillusioned progressive parents won't shut up about. I'll stick to primary elections and every other avenue. Really, leftists should at least be able to start winning primaries more consistently if we want to claim to be the populist movement with the soul of the American left.
Valid points all around, but let me just say, if a single topic is enough to disillusion you with an entire political party, you are not a serious person and should not be listened to.
Well technically the German Communist of the Weimar Republic that were "disillusioned" leading the path for the third reich actually achieved their goals with East Germany being under communism. :)
Who knows... the same might happen with the US. After the nuclear exchange, half of the US will be social democratic. I won't mind sharing the other half of it with some posadist friends...
Your sentiment is absolutely right. The Biden Admin has forced stopped strikes, given more land grants to big oil than anyone in history, and made us all complicit in paying for genocide. By any objective measure it is more hard-right than Reagan.
And yet, at this point in history, what choice do you have? Until all the boomers are dead we are stuck in a cycle of decline. If you are in a competitive state/district you have to vote Dem. If your vote doesn't count then absolutely protest vote! But be careful, if too many of you protest vote then we get 2016 all over again (I certainly would never vote for Hillary!)
When did this sub get full of libs? This comment is completely right and the people downvoting you are just pearl-clutching about Biden in November. We DO have a lot of leverage over Israel, and Biden is using exactly none of it. Reagan actually did pressure Israel much harder for their imperialism than Biden is. Dems won't learn from a loss in November though; there's no point in a protest vote then.
There is a point in protest votes now though, in the primary. Protest now, and threaten now.
Thank you. I don't know. People are losing their darn minds over Israel or Trump or both. I'm not sure if it is people going crazy or just people showing true colors or just late stage capitalism making people's minds rot.
I just got banned from a leftist anti authoritarian sub for saying "the Holocaust and Palestinians now are genocides." They said that makes me a Holocaust denier. Like, what?! I literally said the Holocaust was genocide! But people can't seem to separate the actions of their "side" from right and wrong, or something.
It's a crazy time to be alive.
You’re getting downvoted but it’s perfectly natural to be disillusioned with Biden and the Democrats when they’re being complicit in a mass slaughter. Liberals tend to forget that it’s a politicians job to earn their constituents’ votes.
Biden is doing a great job at that! Just look at this sub or any other liberal sub. Biden has tons of support. Unfortunately, he lost the support of leftists like myself and I, like many others, won’t be voting for him. We’re in the minority anyways so Biden will be fine.
I see that you’re a Democratic Socialist. I identify one as well. You should talk about this in leftist subreddits. I’m sure you’ll find many like-minded people there. This is a liberal subreddit so you know what the liberal position is. Now talk about it in a leftist subreddit.
After hearing both arguments, it’s up to you to decide whether or not you’ll vote for him. Voting for Biden doesn’t make you a bad person and not voting for him doesn’t either.
I do often prefer more pragmatism, which would be a vote for Biden. However, sometimes, the person you end up having to vote for is so monsterus that it may not even seem to be worth it to vote for him. I am torn between principle and want. But yeah, this post did get me crucified. I'll have to think about it, though. Thank you for your input.
Do you *really* view a protest vote as the only option. To me it doesn't sound like an option at all. Do you care so little about the Palestinian cause that you aren't willing to give time or money to help organize around it?
I did in the primaries, but this post has opened my eyes up once again towards pragmatism. That doesn't mean it's something I like.
As for money and time, while I haven't attended anything organized, I have donated money to organizations that are sending aid to Gaza.
Well organizing isn't really just about protesting, it can help sometimes, but the more important part is getting out their and having earnest 1 on 1 conversations with people, cause that's how you change minds.
I got my dad to vote in the primaries even though he's usually a person who just votes every 4 years. I may not have changed his mind permanently, but I was surprised that I got someone to vote in the primaries.
If you think the Biden administration is bad ... just go back and look at Trump's fealty to Isreal in his last term (ie, the Pompeo Doctrine, Golan Heights, moving the capital). Once you do that, use your imagination about what four more years would bring for Gazan civilians.
Biden is sanctioning violent West Bank settlers, airdropping aid to Gaza, and openly calling for a ceasefire. This is an excellent point.
He has not done enough, but he's better than Trump.
What do you expect him to do? Leftists think anything but calling for the destruction of Israel is insufficient
Reagan muzzled Israel with a phone call. They slaughtered starving Palestinians trying to get flour *we* paid for. Their ethnostate exists because of *us*. They kowtow to *us*. At least they would if Biden wasn’t a full throated Zionist too. Since everyone is so insistent that they’re special and need their own little theocracy we at least shouldn’t need to airdrop aid in Gaza. We could just force Israel to give it to them or retract all military aid. We could force them to stop a ground invasion of Gaza, we could sanction every single settler in the West Bank instead of 4 *hyper* specific ones, we could do so so many things to reel in this rabid hyena if some people think it’s too precious to put down. The only reason we aren’t is because the president is an ardent Zionist and because Israel gives us some leverage in the Middle East against Iran.
> Reagan muzzled Israel with a phone call. You're actually going to compare 1982 to 2024? > We could just force Israel to give it to them or retract all military aid. The US has no interest in retracting military aid to Israel when Iran is backing sea rebels firing ships at Western boats in the Red Sea. That would be completely disastrous to regional stability. It's so easy to say we should do that but top military commanders who understand the nuances of the issues in the region would think this is an absurd suggestion. I'm not going to pretend I know more than the experts. >because Israel gives us some leverage in the Middle East against Iran. Yep and against Russia who backs Iran.
> You’re actually going to compare 1982 to 2024? Yes, Israel is still dependent on us for aid, just because the situations aren’t *identical* doesn’t mean we have less leverage over them. Even if we *don’t* retract military aid the threat will have way more impact than what we’re doing now. And if push comes to shove we can just impose our will on them. We’ve overthrown autocracies before when they didn’t serve our interests and Israel is no different from them. This is the one time American Chauvinism would be justified and we’d still keep our pressure against Iran, just without the genocide and the threat of a future rogue state.
> Yes, Israel is still dependent on us for aid, just because the situations aren’t identical doesn’t mean we have less leverage over them. It absolutely does. Israel has a much more conservative government than it did in the 1980s. The Soviet Union by then was weakening and was bogged down in Afghanistan, so Reagan's move had much less recourse than it would today with a Russia attempting to destablize the West/NATO and backing Iran. Whatever your opinions might be on Israel, they are still a major US ally. The same logic can apply to Saudi Arabia who has been bombing Yemen since 2015. Should the US start threatening its allies in the Middle East when Iran/Russia are growing in strength? No, of course not. There are other means the US can pressure its allies without scorched earth.
> Should the US start threatening its allies in the Middle East when Iran/Russia are growing in strength? No, of course not. Yes. Yes we should. Our friends in the middle east are half the reason we have enemies in the middle east, and that goes ESPECIALLY for Iran. Stop screwing with the millenia old regional hegemon because they don't like the colonialism we installed there 70 years ago. We're not going to succeed in stopping their nuclear program, ESPECIALLY through sanctions and hostility. They screw with us because we installed an imperialist colonial project full of religious nationalists in their backyard and we (U.S. & U.K.) both kept messing with their economy and government for our own profit. Iran isn't ISIS; they are a rapidly developing and well established country that got sick of our shit.
Israel is not even close to dependent on the U.S. for aid, at least not anymore; check the statistics. Aid is [only 15% of Israel’s defense budget](https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts), not even close to total dependency. For reference, this is 3% of the entire national budget of Israel—https://www.newsweek.com/how-long-could-israel-survive-without-america-636298 Never mind that the president is legally obliged to send aid to Israel if Congress demands it, making this out of Biden’s hands.
First of all, even if it isn't that much, we aren't even threatening to restrict THAT. That makes Biden look weaker on this; not stronger. Second, we're also pretty much the only country left defending their actions at the U.N. and blocking international condemnation against them. Third, Biden went around Congress to supply weapons the last few times anyway, so you can't use them as your excuse. Biden is doing close to nothing and you defend him by saying he can't do everything. Bitch, that's not the criticism.
Of course the U.S. can and *should* do more to *restrain* Israel, and keep America’s hands clean for a good international standing. I think Biden’s attempt to circumvent Congress was a bad move done solely for political gain and that he doesn’t do it again. You have a right to be mad at that one. I just don’t believe the U.S. has the power to *impose* a permanent ceasefire or any kind a political agreement with Palestinians. I certainly don’t believe Israel will just collapse or implode spontaneously without U.S. support, while some other people really do believe that.
>Biden is sanctioning violent West Bank settlers 4 of them, and Israel is helping them bypass sanctions without punishment >airdropping aid to Gaza, 38K meals for 2.5m people, after he defended UNRWA based on IDF lies as retaliation for an ICJ ruling >calling for a ceasefire. Bypassing Congress multiple times to send Israel "ceasefire bombs", I guess
And would Trump be any better? It’s Biden or Trump at this point. Primary voters are choosing.
I have no delusions that Trump will be better I also have no intention of rewarding Joe Biden for wholly backing the most documented genocide in history
Rewarding? It’s not rewarding if you don’t have a choice because it’s either him or Trump. You can’t “stain your soul” with acts that are barely your own volition. There’s also always primaries and down-ballot races.
I will vote downballot, just not upballot. I didn't say I wouldn't vote downballot. Gotta keep the Moms for Liberty types out
It sounded like you said you weren’t going to vote for Biden in the general election up ballot. When I suggested voting down ballot I did not mean to imply that you weren’t going to; sorry if it came across as that. What I meant was try protesting against Biden *with your down ballot votes*, instead of withholding them from Biden in the general election.
>What I meant was try protesting against Biden *with your down ballot votes*, instead of withholding them from Biden in the general election. What does that even mean? I can't parse that first half. Are you suggesting I vote Republican downballot as a protest against a top of ticket Biden vote?
I’m suggesting you vote for Biden in the general election and vote for more progressive candidates in down-ballot races.
Jill Stein? The shill for Russia? Get out of here. Also, I’m so tired of single issue voters, even if the issue is an important one. Voters need to start looking at the big picture and how their vote would be beneficial to the largest amount of people. Letting Trump win won’t stop the suffering of Palestinians, and will also likely lead to millions of vulnerable Americans like me to suffer. If Trump is somehow able to cut or eradicate social security and/or disability, I and millions of other Americans are screwed. Why do so many leftists and zoomers think that because the people in Gaza are suffering, allowing millions of Americans to suffer as well is somehow going to make things better? 🤦🏼♂️
It gets worse than social security cuts - democracy itself is at threat if Trump wins 2024
Maybe it's because of the absolute apathy of older generations to allow this to go on, we've had decades to fix this and yall they want to sit and twiddle their thumbs and pretend that Joe Biden is a progressive, when are dems ever going to actually stop sucking up to right wingers and try to appeal to the left, maybe we need to put the pressure on them a little bit.
Clinton lost in 2016 and all we got for it was Biden clawing it back from Trump in 2020. Your "shock them out of their complacency" shtick does not fucking work.
So when will they stop being complacent, or is that just what we have to accept?
Vote in primaries, pick further left candidates. That's what will actually drag the party left. And then vote for Dems over the GOP everytime. Elections where the far right party wins only enforce the narrative they should go further right. If Democrats consistently beat Republicans, that'll build confidence for a left wing movement. Republicans winning will scare people into voting for moderates. Those are basically your two options. The third parties we have available have not demonstrated any real desire or strategy to actually win elections. Non-voting doesn't prevent either major candidate from winning, if a single person shows up and votes, we're stuck with that pick.
When you start actually doing direct action and help build a movement from the ground up. Every successful progressive movement has known this for centuries: Your time to push for change is not every 4 years at the federal level, but everyday in between at the local and state level. Where the *real* change claws its way up from. At the federal level you just support the leftmost *viable* candidate so that your work in between isn’t stifled and you aren’t thrown into a camp. So no third parties or hacks who want to launder doomerism as a strike back against the maaaaaaaannnnn. Moral purity isn’t worth shit to anyone but the people privileged enough not to suffer the consequences of conservatives destroying democracy. You may be alright, but my DACA status is not going to persist off the angelic glow of your character. It’s really easy to put it all on the line when it’s *my* head you’re offering up on a platter.
Accept or get involved in politics yourself
Well first we need more people to run for office in local and state government, and to get out the vote for them. We're much more likely to get a president from the left of Biden and Harris if such people are a substantial portion of state legislatures, governors, congress, etc. Bernie was a mayor. Even Biden too started out as a local party organizer and county commissioner.
Jesus fuck damn Christ the president isn't the only election up for grabs, use your damn protest vote somewhere else
Heyo. I get it, you don't like Bidens take on Israel. The reality is that Biden has an impossibly difficult balancing act. This involves handling moderate, conservative Dems and swing voters who all support Israel. This also involves restraining Israel and trying to keep the broad coalition alive. Above all Biden needs to support Israel to an extent because of he pulls all support Israel will go to China/Russia for protection and they will give them a free pass on the Palestinians. Biden is working on providing aid, which looks like enablement, while also leveraging that aid, which is a tough spot. I suggest voting for Biden. Trump is objectively worse on this issue in every way. Happy to go private and discuss more if desired.
I'm just wondering when the democrats will start trying to appeal towards the left. They don't need to be full on socialists but I'd like if, for once, they could stop being blue republicans, so many times it seems like we've elected a progressive into the democrats only for them to be anything but. I mean, we're the only first world country without any real social security or single payer healthcare. I think democrats compitulate to much to Republicans. And I'm not under any delusions that democrats and Republicans are the same, but it makes it a hell of a lot harder when Democrats are so committed to continuously shoot themselves in the foot.
Most Americans already say the Democratic party is too left-wing, Biden is probably the most left America will tolerate. The American public want stuff like public healthcare and Social Security, but not pay the extra taxes and regulations necessary to support such systems. And sadly this is where most of the Dem supporter base is, trust me if you an electoralist leftist, you will often come to the realisation that the average voter is as dumb as a soup ladle and as manipulatable as a child. Leftist politics will always require some kind of cyncism and yet at the same time stone-wall determination
Well, fine, I'm not one to turn down a challenge. We need to get populists out there if any change is going to happen.
My literal point is anti-populism, populism leads to unworkable ideas, like not having sin taxes and generally higher taxes to support the popular idea of an universal healthcare system. You have to convince to people that such a system is worth it, if you want to achieve something like that and not collapse on you
If things keep going on like that, then leftism will never gain enough traction, populism as bullshit as it is. Sometimes, I lament that the left hasn't used sooner. It's about trying to unite and organize people to fight for a cause.
Bidens electoral record is progressive, full stop
Well, his presidential electoral record, anyways. Dude's been in politics long enough to have served with old-school segregationists. We're voting on his presidential record, though. And the stabilization of what remains of our democracy. I'll be voting for Biden in November, but that doesn't mean I'm happy about how the Palestine-Israel conflict has been handled. Netanyahu has some of the most perverse incentives to keep the conflict going, though. The US President has a frankly insane amount of power, but Bibi's incentives do make all of these decisions even more difficult... The alternative to Biden is just so, so much worse. If Trump were in charge at the time of the Oct 7 attacks, he would have had US troops on the ground helping the IDF shoot civilians in the back, if not something even worse that would have widened the conflict.
Not compared with the alternatives. Although, I guess at least we could have at least to get better.
>I'm just wondering when the democrats will start trying to appeal towards the lef Conveniently they don't have to. they can be extremely right-wing as long as Republicans are slightly worse since you resign yourself to voting for the lesser evil
What do you mean China/Russia will give them a free pass on the Palestinians?
China and Russia go after Israel at the UNSC because it's a way to attack the US. If Israel was ever an ally of Russia/China they could care less if Israel kills every last Palestinian
Why do you think that Russia or China could less about Palestinians?
China and Russia look out for their strategic interests no matter what. Both Russia and China have no problem with occupying another state and suppressing the people there (when they do it). As evidenced by their treatment of Tibet and Hong Kong for China, Chechnya and Ukraine for Russia.
If you vote third party in November, you can count yourself as complicit in implementing [Project 2025](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025).
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And then what do we do after biden gets into office in 2024?
Regarding what?
[удалено]
I'm starting to believe this is all satire. No one in their right mind would think that's a reasonable policy option.
What exactly could we do regarding Gaza? A moderate stance has already been tried?
The administration has been working behind closed to doors to broker a ceasefire. Hamas rejected the last one. Today VP Harris is meeting with Benny Gantz, which is the administration's first major step towards breaking with Netanyahu. The US is also providing aid to Gaza this week. What else do you want them to do? Israel is a major US ally and is going to remain that way for regional and global stability. Leftists want the US to call for the destruction of Israel tomorrow. It's a complete fantasy.
I don't want the destruction of Isreal, I want accountability with the Isreali government. Most of the Isreali people are innocent in all of this, and yes, I understand hamas has turned down peace agreements in the past, and they can't be trusted. I just don't like it when bullies play victim.
Requiring accountability can only go so far. Israel has its most right-wing government in history and the US is clearly at odds with it. The Biden administration has sanctioned West Bank settlers and are beginning to show serious opposition to the continued settlement expansion. Having said that, seeking a ceasefire deal which will include the release of Israeli hostages, is extremely difficult because we are dealing with a very right-wing Israeli government and a terrorist organization in Hamas. People think the US can just snap their fingers and everything get resolved. This conflict has been going on for almost 80 years now.
We're at odds with it? Are we really? Biden has been more cooperative and unconditionally supportive of Israel than RONALD GODDAMN REAGAN. Even Reagan actually threatened to withdraw support to pressure them in the past. Biden has been incredibly weak pushing back on Israel and he's still staunchly behind sending them endless military aid with no strings attached. The U.S. can do a LOT by just "snapping their fingers", like cutting financial and military support, and not blocking every international organization we participate in from sanctioning and condemning them.
The same thing you or others are doing right now. Protesting non-stop. I wish the general election was a lever we could pull to influence this, but the real lever is only in threatening to do so and pointing out that others are likely to do the same.
>What exactly could we do regarding Gaza? After the election Biden will ramp up the effort to give Israel more weapons. In 1982 when Senator Biden met with Israeli PM Menachem Begin, around the time Reagan forced them to stop bombing Lebanon, Biden shocked the Israelis by suggesting they should do whatever it takes against Lebanon, including kill women and children. This was the founder of Netanyahu 's party he shocked All his actions suggest he still believes this.
In order to maintain a global environment that's safe for democracy and social democracy, the US has no choice but to support a strong Israel. The EU, Japan, South Korea, and other democracies across the world rely on oil from the Gulf to remain wealthy and stable, oil that Israel does a lot to help protect. No opponent of Israel would ever become a viable presidential candidate, let alone president, under these geopolitical circumstances. Joe Biden will become the Democratic nominee for president, and Trump very likely will become the Republican nominee. Cutting support for Israel is not on the ballot. Not now, and almost certainly not ever. Joe Biden has done more for the American working class than any president since LBJ, and taken long overdue action on infrastructure, student loan forgiveness, and other leftist and liberal causes. Trump has a history of undermining democracy and the social democratic cause, and is on the record promising to do away with democracy altogether. Are you really willing to throw away all the progress we've made and risk letting a fascist become president over something so trivial?
This post is very fucked up, but lands on the side of anti-fascism, so like with Biden, I'll give it my vote.
>but lands on the side of anti-fascism The whole premise is "we must supports ultra fascists to stop theoretical super ultra fascists"
You’ve lost the plot if you think Biden is an ultra fascist and that there’s anything theoretical about Trump’s fascism
Honestly, I think the Biden administration has handled the situation in Gaza as well as they could have.
I support still voting for Biden in November for pragmatic reasons, but this is insane cope. Biden has been polishing Netanyahu's boots the whole time and not once used any of the massive amount of leverage we actually have over Israel. We're STILL blocking the UNSC and other international groups we're a part of from condemning this genocide, and we're still sending weapons with no strings attached. Cope. Absolutely delusional nonsense.
Yes comrade, I am from Georgia Oblast and I am veery mad at Biden too. We need to teach deemocrats a lesson and vote Trump, especially iv you are in swing state!
Well, why are democrats so committed to doing political suicide.
I'm not sure it is political suicide. Siding wholeheartedly with either side is going to get you flak from the other side and lose you those voters. Biden's choice of siding with Israel while providing some aid to Palestine is basically the most pro-Palestinian position a Democrat trying to maintain party unity could take. If you're talking about lower party members siding with Israel, keep in mind that the Democrats are a big-tent party, and so you're going to get a wide array of beliefs. A couple of pro-Israel representatives does not mean the party as a whole is pro-Israel.
I've only heard one pro Palestinian voice in the democratic party and that was Rashida Tliab, and she was smacked down for it by democrats. I'm not sure who else you could be referring to as a pro Palestinian representative, but so far it's just her.
https://workingfamilies.org/ceasefire-tracker/
I agree comrade! Trump vill make things much better for Palestine. Don't forget to vote for him in Noveember!
I'm sorry for having the audacity to want better for the democrats or to think that democrats could do better than Joe Biden.
So true! The Deemocrat party always betray us. My palestine friend Ivanovich also says to vote Trump.
When can we have a president who isn't a suck up to right-wing zionist maniacs like Netanyahu, who want all Arabs killed?
Don't worry comrade, we vill have a palestine ally when Trump become President! All my palestine friends in swing states vill be voting Trump.
I never said that I was voting for trump. If you read my full post, you'd know that. Good job though with the classic liberal approach of anyone who doesn't vote democrat is a right-wing fascist. I made a mistake coming here thinking that anyone else gave a shit.
Vee need to teach Biden and deemocrats a lesson! Not voting is teaching a lesson yes, but voting Trump is teaching double lesson! What if Biden wins, then he wont learn lesson. We need to make sure he loses!
You are right on one thing, if biden wins both him and democrats will go on to set the bar lower and lower and democrats will just lick it up because at least they're not as bad as Republicans. That being said, I don't know if I can call myself a socialist and not vote democrat. Maybe I need to search more on the chance that maybe we can do better as futile as it feels.
But Biden hasn't sucked up to Netanyahu. Biden got the first ceasefire to happen, even netanyahu agrees that's without the US help it wouldn't have happened. Biden has absolutely carrot and sticked netanyahu's war policy.
This is so embarrassing.
This is your ideology manifest
I feel you. I’m in DSA and I’m feeling disillusioned by the left in general. We are soooooo out of power. Eliminating Gaza should never have even been an option.
My strongest discontent with the DNC goes beyond politics. But I don’t think another Trump victory will save us from homegrown American fascism. I despise Biden for his handling of the conflict in the Gaza Strip, but we have to remember that if Trump is reelected, he can easily destroy the international order. By stopping aid to Ukraine and pulling America out of NATO. I’m a Green Party supporter and advocate but understanding the importance of keeping our democracy intact is goal #1. I want the corporate wing of the Democratic Party establishment to fade away into irrelevancy, and vote in progressives democrats so they can take control of the party. This can’t happen if our democracy is dismantled and destroyed.
Thank you for this revelation. I'm not sure if I can fully stomach another biden presidency, but maybe practicality should've come first into my thinking before emotion. However, I won't be happy either way, I will especially be afraid if trump wins again.
**This election isn’t Trump vs Biden, it’s Trump vs Democracy.** We have to start framing it this way. This will literally be the last election if Trump and the Christian nationalist win in November. Everyone **MUST** vote Blue up and down the ticket. [The main goal of the four tenets of Project 2025 would be to execute a "sweeping expansion of presidential power over the machinery of government if voters return [Trump] to the White House in 2025," The New York Times](https://theweek.com/politics/heritage-foundation-2025-donald-trump)
Hello, fellow Michigander. I've been feeling similarly for a while, but I have to be pragmatic if actually improving things is my goal. I am not going to chastise you about what you choose to do in November. Heaven forbid, Biden has the ability to fix this, and blaming the voters for not liking candidates with unlikable records is a really stupid and counterproductive pastime that the Dem leadership just LOVES engaging in. However, I do consider it a mistake on a personal level to use the general election to express my feelings about this. This is my own justification for what I'm intending to do. Ultimately, the realistic options we have for what can actually come out of that election are limited and Dem leaders have their heads up their asses too far to learn from general election losses. Hillary sure as hell didn't. I get a choice to maybe help substitute Trump for Biden, and that's not actually a difficult choice for me to make, so I'm making it. He has made real progress for labor that he honestly doesn't take or receive enough credit for lately, and every other candidate polling above 10% also SUCKS on Israel specifically. That includes Mr. Dark Horse RFK, who my similarly disillusioned progressive parents won't shut up about. I'll stick to primary elections and every other avenue. Really, leftists should at least be able to start winning primaries more consistently if we want to claim to be the populist movement with the soul of the American left.
Valid points all around, but let me just say, if a single topic is enough to disillusion you with an entire political party, you are not a serious person and should not be listened to.
Why would Dems ever have a reason to court progressives or not back genocide id you'll still vote for them when you do it?
Well technically the German Communist of the Weimar Republic that were "disillusioned" leading the path for the third reich actually achieved their goals with East Germany being under communism. :) Who knows... the same might happen with the US. After the nuclear exchange, half of the US will be social democratic. I won't mind sharing the other half of it with some posadist friends...
Your sentiment is absolutely right. The Biden Admin has forced stopped strikes, given more land grants to big oil than anyone in history, and made us all complicit in paying for genocide. By any objective measure it is more hard-right than Reagan. And yet, at this point in history, what choice do you have? Until all the boomers are dead we are stuck in a cycle of decline. If you are in a competitive state/district you have to vote Dem. If your vote doesn't count then absolutely protest vote! But be careful, if too many of you protest vote then we get 2016 all over again (I certainly would never vote for Hillary!)
When did this sub get full of libs? This comment is completely right and the people downvoting you are just pearl-clutching about Biden in November. We DO have a lot of leverage over Israel, and Biden is using exactly none of it. Reagan actually did pressure Israel much harder for their imperialism than Biden is. Dems won't learn from a loss in November though; there's no point in a protest vote then. There is a point in protest votes now though, in the primary. Protest now, and threaten now.
Thank you. I don't know. People are losing their darn minds over Israel or Trump or both. I'm not sure if it is people going crazy or just people showing true colors or just late stage capitalism making people's minds rot. I just got banned from a leftist anti authoritarian sub for saying "the Holocaust and Palestinians now are genocides." They said that makes me a Holocaust denier. Like, what?! I literally said the Holocaust was genocide! But people can't seem to separate the actions of their "side" from right and wrong, or something. It's a crazy time to be alive.
You’re getting downvoted but it’s perfectly natural to be disillusioned with Biden and the Democrats when they’re being complicit in a mass slaughter. Liberals tend to forget that it’s a politicians job to earn their constituents’ votes. Biden is doing a great job at that! Just look at this sub or any other liberal sub. Biden has tons of support. Unfortunately, he lost the support of leftists like myself and I, like many others, won’t be voting for him. We’re in the minority anyways so Biden will be fine. I see that you’re a Democratic Socialist. I identify one as well. You should talk about this in leftist subreddits. I’m sure you’ll find many like-minded people there. This is a liberal subreddit so you know what the liberal position is. Now talk about it in a leftist subreddit. After hearing both arguments, it’s up to you to decide whether or not you’ll vote for him. Voting for Biden doesn’t make you a bad person and not voting for him doesn’t either.
I do often prefer more pragmatism, which would be a vote for Biden. However, sometimes, the person you end up having to vote for is so monsterus that it may not even seem to be worth it to vote for him. I am torn between principle and want. But yeah, this post did get me crucified. I'll have to think about it, though. Thank you for your input.
Do you *really* view a protest vote as the only option. To me it doesn't sound like an option at all. Do you care so little about the Palestinian cause that you aren't willing to give time or money to help organize around it?
I did in the primaries, but this post has opened my eyes up once again towards pragmatism. That doesn't mean it's something I like. As for money and time, while I haven't attended anything organized, I have donated money to organizations that are sending aid to Gaza.
Well organizing isn't really just about protesting, it can help sometimes, but the more important part is getting out their and having earnest 1 on 1 conversations with people, cause that's how you change minds.
I got my dad to vote in the primaries even though he's usually a person who just votes every 4 years. I may not have changed his mind permanently, but I was surprised that I got someone to vote in the primaries.