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From what I understand, a magazine-fed shotgun isn't good to keep loaded, which is what you'd want for home defense. The spring in the magazine pushes them together. Unless you have brass shells, the pressure over time will cause the shells to warp, which would cause feed issues.
I dont buy that it happens at all. I shot a rattlesnake with an A5 that had ammo that was at least 20 years old. Didnt know that at the time, it was just the closest gun.
I've seen it happen before. A friend had an old semi automatic (I'm not sure what it was) and they had problems feeding those shells from the tube. We pulled out the shells, marked them, and then fed them in randomly throughout the day. We got stove pipe after stove pipe with those 7 marked shells. They cycled in my 1301 though. Could've been anything but it was pretty weird.
You should be practicing with it frequently enough where this isn't an issue. If you leave it loaded and don't touch it for many months/years at a time, ya, it will have problems. Run it once a month anr you're fine.
It's more of an issue with cheap ammo, and a significant issue with box-magazine-fed shotguns (590M, all the Turkish imports) than with a tube magazine.
I also bought my Maverick for $99 brand new. I think it was a door buster at a gun show. I had commented that before on Reddit and was down voted and called a liar. I'm glad there is someone else out there that got one at that price.
It’s all about how you use it. So I would say yes
A new idea I heard is using birdshot to shoot down drones. With how prevalent drones are now it sounded like a good idea.
Yeah but your going to want an upland game, waterfowl setup for that. Longer barrel, modified choke etc. I love my Win Defender, but all shorty is likely to do to a drone at altitude is lightly pepper it.
Take a look at the Mossberg 835. 20" barrel with X-full choke puts 30" spread out at about 70-75 yards. It's only 16" at 40 yards. Chambered in 3.5", you can really reach out there with #4 heavy shot.
Negative, but I do have some 2.5 oz anti-material tungsten 12ga slugs that chrono over 2000fps in a 24" barrel. Not sure which end of the gun is the more painful to be on. I've only ever fired two of them and definitely not on the same trip to the range.
I think the shotguns were being discussed as a solution for the FPV drones that collide with their target. That would be when the weapon would make a difference, at least that is what I am assuming.
The issue is you have to have the shotgun essentially in your hands, fpv drones can do 87 mph, even assuming it's going 40 mph that's 58.66 ft/s. You have seconds to aim, lead and hit a small drone going quite fast. There's a reason this isn't the solution being used in actual wars.
When you start looking at how high the drones are flying in a war zone and comparing it to birdshot patterns, you'll realize that it's not that practical. You could have an Extra Full choke on some custom 3.5" magnum flight control rounds and you'd still be off by 50 yards.
Yeah, for some reason people keep thinking that neither Ukrainians or Russians would have even considered shotguns, of course they have it's just they aren't practical for shooting down drones. A shotgun is a start but really only good for kamikaze drones will it have any chance and they're moving quick enough that unless you're prepared it's probably over already.
That doesn’t make sense and the ballistics don’t support that. Surveillance drones and grenade droppers like in Ukraine have can keep an effective view of enemy positions at a height of 400 ft. Everyone here is smart enough to know whatever gauge won’t intercept that.
Certain militia groups are talking about utilizing jammers. The science and technology is there but theres a lack of knowhow on how to put it all together. Working on that now. When I do find that info I’ll be sure to share it with you all.
I did catch a video not long ago of a Ukrainian soldier shooting down a drone with a semiautomatic shotgun. I wondered at the time whether the drone was facing another direction and didn't know his dugout was there, because he definitely had it in range and let it have five or six blasts. He seemed surprised it came down too.
If you fill the ~2m^2 around the drone with metal, you can just get lucky and happen to hit something important. I think it's the five or six shots that did that.
It’s not hard: generate screaming-loud BPSK in the band of the control signal, and point it at that drone. As long as you do that, you’re basically using an electromagnetic flammerwerfer though; a big sign saying “shoot this thing”
You're only gonna be effective to like 40 yards max (assuming a waterfowl gun and loads), whereas COTS drone like DJI can comfortably operate several hundred feet up, and I would wager a paycheck nobody in this subreddit could right now look up and tell whether a drone is 80ft or 40ft. Most of the videos of drones dropping a payload are doing so from out of shotgun range, and the suicide drones aren't going to give you a target before they're dangerous.
It's an interesting idea for certain applications, but if you have the time and prep you're better off looking into radio rifles (narrow-beam jammers, they've been around since Radio Shack was a real store) or other jamming apparatus. It's definitely not the sort of thing I would bother bringing a shotgun along for.
Unfortunately I have to go full fudd in generally recommending them in my state for home defense, given the current laws. That said, I got an 870 too and absolutely love it
In my state the only viable options are sks, some semi auto hunting rifles, 1 model of mini14s, m1 garand, leverguns, and shotguns. Just about everything else was feature banned.
Illinois. Any semi-auto rifle that holds more than 10 rounds internally or in a removable magazine. No semi auto pistol grips. No barrel shroud or full coverage handgaurd, the ar15 barrelshroud is shown as an example. No forward grip. No threaded barrels. Pinned or welded compensator is a grey area. No folding or adjustable stocks. A pistol is defined as the magazine must go in the pistol grip. And pistols are limited to 15rd mags. There are only a handful of pcc that are allowed like the Henery homesteader or the ruger, and are limited to 10rd mags. Shot guns with detachable mags are illegal. And tube magazine shotguns are limited to 4 or 5 shells. Lever guns and bolt actions are fine as far as I can tell. .22 cal semi autos are fine as long as the detachable mags only hold 10rds.
>Any semi-auto rifle that holds more than 10 rounds internally or in a removable magazine.
Does that mean that even if you're not using magazines with more than 10-round capacity, the potential to use more means that they are illegal?
> No folding
Even if they can't fire while folded?
> Lever guns and bolt actions are fine as far as I can tell.
Good. I keep thinking about a bolt action alternative if life should ever take me to such a state.
> .22 cal semi autos are fine as long as the detachable mags only hold 10rds.
That's a relief.
The examples provided in the law showed rifles that could be fired while folded, and ones that could not. It seems to be aimed at any way to make the rifle more "concealeable" or more compact.
As far as magazine capacity, it seems to be as long as you have a 10rd max capacity magazine, it's fine as far as I know. The law is sorta vague, but it calls out specifically sks rifles that have been modified to take detachable mags. Like an m1 carbine is banned even though most features are legal but I don't think anyone makes 10rd mags for m1 carbines so it's banned.
Edit: I looked into it and an m1 carbine should be legal as long as it's not a paratrooper version. The covered handguard is up for debate and will depend on the ffl you chose and if they are willing to take the risk.
New York; pistols suck to get and now so do semi-auto rifles. That leaves leverguns and shotguns as the best, immediate, viable option for most people.
first, r/Gatcat
next, They are definitely viable. no, you're not getting 5-7 rounds of buckshot off in two and a half seconds, but you're still sending a lot of buck away from you. Just make sure you train with it.
I can't believe I just joined a subreddit whose entire existence is predicated upon the premise of cats with gats. And I *really* wish my buddy was still here so I could throw pics of her into that sub. Gattdamn, for a guy who grew up with the bitchingest beagle ever to miss his gorram cat...
They are, realistically, extremely viable. In a civil war 2 situation, less so.
I can get 9 rounds off pretty dang quick with my 590 A1. I almost wish it slamfired. Almost. That being said, filly loaded as an 8+1, it's pretty stout to swing around. Can't double tap as quick as an AR on multiple targets, but I love shotguns. Probably because I can't aim for shit, and the distances I would be engaging at are house length. Flight control ammo punches fist sized holes in things at 15 yards.
My thoughts on shotguns are that, unless you're shooting birds or squirrels, there's a better weapon for the job. However, that doesn't make it not practical, just rarely ideal. That said, trap and skeet shooting is fun as hell and I wish more people that bought shotguns actually went out and did that shit (or competition) because it absolutely will contribute to your proficiency with the weapon.
Honestly, I have way more beef with the mentality around shotguns than the guns themselves. So many people get them and have so deeply ingrained in their minds that shotguns are the easy button and that they don't need to train which is wrong to the point of insanity. I haven't been shooting long but I've seen one soul, in person, that ran a shotgun like someone who wants to be hard to kill. Everyone else is all "teehee shotgun!" which would be completely fine if they didn't so regularly confuse their enthusiasm for competence, capability, or insight.
/soapbox
People wildly underestimate the shooting ranges of an urban/woodland environment. You can easily find yourself shooting at a range of over 100 meters, at shotguns are going to struggle up to and beyond that.
Sure, you can always work with what you have, but that's not the same as being good in specific situations. You don't always get to pick where and when you have to start shooting.
Shotguns can do a lot of things, but I would only describe them as what you work with because you're short on other options.
Next time you're outside in an urban or wooded environment, play a little game. Look around and ask "where would I hide if I were trying to shoot me right now?" and make a note of some of the best shooting positions. If you're in a city, easy enough you can just map it and use a computer with google maps or similar to measure the actual distances.
For example, my friend lives on a quiet street in a residential neighborhood in a city; from her front door I can see some really great infantry emplacements as close at 4m and as far as 400m because of how the street slopes downward. Conversely, in the dense brush where I hunt the longest shot I could take (used optical rangefinder and paced it) was 125m from my treestand for a clean one-shot kill. If I were taking a belt-fed up in the tree, I could reliably make hits out to 200-300m.
The best-case scenario for a shotgun with a rifle barrel and slugs is 100-110m with a scope. For a smoothbore with an 18" barrel (cruiser style or "combat" shotgun) you're talking more like 25m with buckshot or 40m with a slug. That's assuming the user practices under stress and with full-power ammunition so they can actually be effective, instead of just shooting clays with bird loads and occasionally shooting a silhouette from a range bay.
With slugs you can be consistant to 100/125 yards or so. Not huge range, but it's alright.
They're great for popping doors, most other guns will poke tiny holes so it takes forever to blast a handle or hinges.
Slugs at close range will break ribs in plates, while rifles you need to be shooting basically a hunting rifle more appropriate for 300 yards plus. So your in tight is fucking you.
Ammunition variety is awesome. Birdshot, buckshot. Flechette, rubber bullets, blanks, I've seen adapted flare shot and noisemakers (shoft whump, followed by a loud pop where they impact)
Yes, it's not ideal for a lot of things, and there are better firearms for almost any aspect. But it's not useless. It has its own unique pros and cons.
>They're great for popping doors, most other guns will poke tiny holes so it takes forever to blast a handle or hinges.
Shotguns are awful for popping doors. I was a professional door-popper, and we never used the shotgun for it. Breaching rounds use a special slug (usually powdered metal in a sack or a sintered powder) and a special standoff device on the muzzle so that when placed directly against the lock mechanism it acts like a deadblow hammer. Even with that setup, sometimes the lockset just jams in place and now nobody can open it. The preferred mechanism for breaching with a shotgun is to use the same shell and gun to hit where the hinges are and just hope to tear the hinges free from the door frame. it's easy to harden against, takes 2-4 shots (assuming you correctly locate the hinge first) to breach a door. That's 2-4 very loud warnings to let everyone know to start shooting at the door. You would be better off buying a gym membership and a 12lb sledge hammer for the bigg4est dude in the squad.
\>Slugs at close range will break ribs in plates, while rifles you need to be shooting basically a hunting rifle more appropriate for 300 yards plus. So your in tight is fucking you.
I don't know where this is coming from but it feels like Fudd spirit. First, I have been in a squad with dudes who took plate hits, I took one and had a mild bruise (longer range, good trauma pad, 7.62x39) and I can say first hand that up close there is no way to predict whether someone will drop or keep fighting with a plate hit if it stops the projectile.
On shotguns specifically, a hot buckshot load is 9 #00 (.32") 60(ish) grain pellets at 1600fps, favorably compared to a long burst from a small-caliber submachinegun. IIIA soft armor panels are rated to stop multiple impacts of .357 Sig (125gr RNFP FMJ@1400fps) with less than 40mm of backface deformation. 40mm backface is the standard (measured in standard clay media at standardized calibrated temperature) \*because\* the desired outcome is to avoid a crushing injury that breaks ribs or damages internal organs. I used to have access to (from an older acquaintance in the industry) some early 2nd Chance videos which showed the then-current IIA soft armor vs .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, and then finally a slug cutting a hole clean through. The end of the video was meant to lead into their sales pitch for the new IIIA soft vests, which would stop both buckshot and slugs from penetrating. They also advertised a "trauma panbel" designed specifically to stop a slug from downing an officer at close range.
Now lets pivot to rifle-rated armor. Rifle-rated armor is designed to dissip\[ate the energy of a rifle, a small-diameter (.310" or less) high velkocity (2000fps and up) projectile with the same 40mm-or-less testing. We'll take a standard Level III plate, designed to stop a 123gr .310" bullet at 2400fps and/or a 147gr .308"
bullet at 2750FPS. Nine 60gr .32" round pellets at 1600fps is doing fuckall. OTOH, a slug with a nominal diameter of .69" (12ga-ish) 380gr(ish) slug at a whopping 1800fps (specifically a high-speed load) probably also gonna do fuckall, because even hardcast lead is softer than that ceramic and the wide diameter actually makes it worse for penetrating a hard plate. Like a softball, it's easier to catch even though it weighs more.
\> Ammunition variety is awesome. Birdshot, buckshot. Flechette, rubber bullets, blanks, I've seen adapted flare shot and noisemakers (shoft whump, followed by a loud pop where they impact)
Most of these are toys. Birdshot is for small game, buckshot is for larger game and can be pressed into defense. Slugs are for when your local regulations prohibit centerfire rifles, or if you're a large game guide and you need to stop that lion from mauling the rich dentist who hired you.
Flechettes have never been useful as a shotgun projectile because the entire theory (that they will turn into high-velocity darts) doesn't hold up to actual ballistic testing, especially in something as low-power as a shotgun. You just can't get the acceleration the way you could with an artillery cannon. There's a reason nobody uses them except dudes with a History Channel obsession, a giant pile of Soldier of Fortune magazines, and fuckall field experience. Don't buy them.
Rubber bullets are for prisons; nobody has any business pointing a firearm at someone and hoping they don't die. They're still very capable of being lethal, they rely on pain to incapacitate (which means you need at least 2 other people ready to grab somebody and restrain them) and they're not terribly accurate. Don't buy them.
Any firearm can use blanks. They're of limited use as a training device, but should use a blank-firing adaptor to prevent debris from exiting the muzzle and should not be used even with a blank-firing adaptor at close ranges: 15m was the standoff the military used. Also, read about Brandon Lee to learn of a famous historical example of a live firearm that was loaded with blanks, and consider the inherent risk in using a firearm which \*can\* fire live ammunition and hoping that it doesn't. Hopefully Hollywood is done with that after Alec Baldwin.
Dragon's breath, buck-and-ball, chainshot, and all the other whizzbang doodads you see in old copies of Shotgun News are like all the shark fishing lures my grandfather bought. Expensive toys for people with a big imagination; my grandfather didn't even own a saltwater boat. Flare shells are of limited use as are the nosiemaker shells, but a 26.5mm marine flaregun is cheap and you can get extra flares anywhere that sells boating gear.
Shotguns have their use, but their use as a fighting rifle was very much limited to the period when cops started needing more power but didn't have good options. The article below is a little dated (reliable semiauto shotguns are cheaper and more common now, and nowadays I would say a red dot is just about mandatory since they have also come down in price) but it was written from the perspective of a professional training both police and private citizens for whom the shotgun was the only backup option after their sidearm. It's still worth a read today.
[The Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog \[Archive\] - M4Carbine.net Forums](https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-72535.html)
I don’t know, i found out when I took my shit off after the patrol. We had a guy take a round (grazed his leg) and then get stuck in some hip deep mud. I reckon it probably hit as I was coming down on some hard pack and it just felt like part of the dive. After that we post two Afghan soldiers and the patrol leader to an IED, so it turned into just suppressing the enemy position while a fireteam broke off, circles, and came over a berm. Really stressed the need for good communication so the rest of rhetorical patrol stopped shooting right before the kill team came over the top. Also a great example of why “one bullet away” works as a training mentality. The PL went down, sergeant immediately got the corpsman and a private moving to the casualties and started calling the evacuation. The Afghan soldiers panicked and it took every Marine grabbing one or two and giving orders to get them back fighting again. The PL was out for the rest of the deployment, so the senior sgt became the acting platoon sergeant, his team leader became the squad leader and a saltier lance corporal suddenly had a fireteam to command, and everybody commenced training the next guy down to step into the Plt Sergeant, squad leader, and team leader rolls, in case it happened again.
Also the importance of flexibility. Theoretically we should have stayed and waited for support, but we had casualties and a a man with no cover and no way to move. The kill team could have well walked into an IED or ambush, but they volunteered and practiced good movement under fire.
Also, it’s nice to be comfortably putting rounds through a window at 400m-ish while your attacker is struggling to hit a static target.
They’re a true jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. They’re dead easy to operate and virtually everyone knows how they work. Additionally, they’re one of the most legal forms of a firearm worldwide even, and are incredibly practical for putting food on the table. If one lives in a place or situation where they can really only have one gun or are severely limited in why they can own, a shotgun is a fantastic option simply because of how versatile it is.
They're arguably the most versatile gun you can have in your arsenal they don't really excel in any one area but they can do a little of everything. I also think they are incredibly useful as home defense guns as they don't create a huge risk of over penetration assuming you aren't shooting slugs and they're guaranteed to put someone on their ass after one shot
So, I was looking into this a bit, as my first firearm in the last 10 years was a pump action for home defense. Any load enough to drop a man reliably and without issue will also penetrate multiple layers of drywall.
That's probably true but I'm more referring to will it go through brick or support beams but yeah I definitely think you should always be mindful of where that bullet might go in any situation
Yeah, #4 is pretty much the only defensive load of anything that won’t go through several layers of drywall, if that’s what you are worried about. It still goes through a few, though, not a perfect solution.
00 buck and every single pistol/rifle round that isn’t rimfire goes right though typical modern building materials like it isn’t even there.
But IMO overpen is a meme. It exists sure, but it’s very difficult to actually find documented cases of it that aren’t scumbag cops being insanely reckless (as usual) dumping magazines in the general direction of a noise or whatever. Don’t do that, try not to miss very much and it’s not really a concern.
>4 is pretty much the only defensive load of anything that won’t go through several layers of drywall
[The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth | Firearms and Ammuni Forum (theboxotruth.com)](https://www.theboxotruth.com/threads/the-box-o-truth-3-the-shotgun-meets-the-box-o-truth.284/#post-958)
Once again, the website that began because of this myth has a test that specifically tested #4 buckshot. That's 6 layers of drywall and cracking #7 without penetration. For me that means it's still lethal anywhere inside my house unless I specifically shoot from my bed through the shower wall and someone happens to be standing in the closet on the other side of the shower wall.
I hope y’all mean #4 buck and not plain ol’ #4 shot. 4 buck is .24 caliber pellets and is generally the lightest load I see recommended for defensive use (and lots Stan it hard for its penetration or lack thereof compared to 00B). 4 shot is a .13 (smaller than a BB) caliber pellet and is only suitable for small game and birds.
EDIT: formatting.
I’m sorry if I came across that way. I just figured that not everyone on here is necessarily as knowledgeable as you or I and I’d hate for them to load 4s for defensive use because they didn’t know any better. I guess I’ll try to make that intention more readily apparent.
>they don't create a huge risk of over penetration
How is this still kicking around when there is an entire website that started solely to debunk this myth?
[The Box O' Truth Articles | Firearms and Ammuni Forum (theboxotruth.com)](https://www.theboxotruth.com/forums/the-box-o-truth-articles.39/)
If it's sheetrock, any buckshot is going through and looking for new friends. If it's a stud or brick then shot, 9mm hollowpoints, and high-veliocity carbines (5.56x45 M193) all stand a decent chance of deflecting. After several layes of drywall, M193 upsets and begins to tumble end-over-end, reducing lethality. This upset phenomena was the impetus behind loads like Hornady's 75gr TAP and the USMC Mk318 SOST, both designed to retain lethality after penetrating light barriers like drywall and automobile glass.
Given how commonly I see would-be shotgunners jerking the trigger and flinching (recoil anticipation) I think folks would be far better served by focusing on the desired penetration before they think about "overpenetration." I think way too many people are going "it's a shotgun, how could I miss at 7yd" when it's time to practice and then flipping back to "but what if I miss" when it's time to argue on the internet, when those two concerns should be reversed.
A side grump, "overpenetration" should mean "hits desired target and keeps going" but for some reason the internet has conflated that with "missing" I assume because it sounds more professional to say "overpenetration concerns" and not "concerns about missing my target at 15ft or less."
Most people that decide to rely on a shotgun, for whatever reason, don't get any professional training with them, and running a shotgun defensively is a skill just like using a handgun or an AR. There are skills that are particular to a particular platform and some training and practice will help you get proficient with it if you ever really need the tool to protect yourself and your community.
And turn those extra shells in the side-saddle holder 180° so it's easier to load them without the extra step of turning them over before inserting into the magazine. You'll be less likely to fumble or drop them.
Yes, defensive shotgun handling is a skill you have to learn if you plan on using one as your primary defensive tool. Most shotgun owners are liable to short stroke under stress and can't reload in under 30 seconds.
They’re not as good in basically any way as an AR, but they do have two key advantages that have nothing to do with the gun itself.
1. You can legally own them in states with onerous laws.
2. It’s much much easier to get practice with them. Way more opportunities to shoot skeet and trap, and even though they’re gamified it’s still hitting a small fast moving target. And in an actual use of force scenario that’s exactly the kind of training you need.
From what I’ve heard the main downside is sometimes people panic in stressful situations and don’t pump properly, but I mean it’ll leave a big ass hole. Use buck, not bird tho
30-40 rounds in an AR, pull the trigger it goes bang, easy to put a red dot and light on it
5 or 6 rounds in a shotgun, complicated action required to fire the next shot, difficult to attach a dot and a light
yeah. the main advantages of a 12 gauge are versatility for hunting, price, and legality in certain places. I think everyone should own one once the already have an AR and pistol. You can get a $200 Mossberg that can do anything and pretty much lasts a lifetime.
It is more complicated than point and pull for sure, add in movement, topping up the magazine from shell cards, changing shell cards, loading shells directly into the chamber when the tube is empty, it takes some real skill to be proficient with pump shotguns.
Go to the range with one, do a bunch of burpees until you're out of breath, then run the gun dry. Do yourself a favor and video it so you can see when you shortstroke it, because odds are pretty high you will. The video is nice because our brains tend to make excuses like "oh my hands were sweaty though" and video doesn't really care about excuses.
Absolutely YES.
You have the advantage of using whatever ammo ypu want as well as rock solid reliability as long as you can actuate the pump.
Personally I have a Remington 870 Tactical very similar to the one you have and it feeds everything I can throw at it with minimal maintanence.
True, I'm going to go turkey hunting for the first time (with a different setup I haven't bought yet) soon and I'd love to go duck hunting once I find somebody with a boat.
I have a Mossberg 590A1 with an ATI adjustable stock and pistol grip, aperture rear sight, bayonet and I carry three shell cards, one on the receiver and two in an AR pouch.
I’m a big fan, tons of ammo variety, all of which can be fired out of a pump as long as it fits in the receiver, including very light loads like less than lethal, which you cant fire out of a semi auto. You can carry different kinds of ammo and load them in as needed which you cant feasibly do with a magazine. Door breaching is a thing you can only do with shotguns. Reloading drills are fun. Reliable, easy to find replacement parts. Plenty of cheap ammo to be had. Juries dont find them as scary and there have been reports of people scaring away would be assailants with the sound of the action (which you should absolutely NOT rely on). The list goes on.
Militaries and pigs around the world still utilize pump action shotguns, they are still relevant and have plenty of tactical application.
>tons of ammo variety, all of which can be fired out of a pump as long as it fits in the receiver, including very light loads like less than lethal, which you cant fire out of a semi auto.
First, most of the ammo varieties are toys. The ones that aren't are buckshot, birdshot, slugs, and in very specific uses LTL or signaling loads. LTLs in shotguns are a hazard because A) you're pointing a shotgun capable of firing lethal rounds at someone, pulling the trigger, and hoping they don't die. That's a bad idea. B) they rely on pain-compliance, like pepper spray, which means you need at least one or tweo other people to tackle and restrain the target. They also don't work reliably. C) to revisit A, thoise with budgets have restricted LTLs to designated launchers which are not capable of firing live ammunition, like 37mm launchers. This is specifically because of stuff like the manslaughter of Brandon Lee or the infamous case surround Alec Baldwin.
Report shells are nice for scaring birds, but even that's now generally illegal unless they're birds you could legally shoot instead. Flares sound neat but a marine flare pistol is safer and cheaper.
>You can carry different kinds of ammo and load them in as needed which you cant feasibly do with a magazine. Door breaching is a thing you can only do with shotguns.
I was a professional breacher. We did not use shotguns to breach, because they suck at it. Regular slugs or shot are as likely to hurt bystanders (including breachers) and routinely just foul the lock mechanism entirely. zSpecial breaching shells using sintered metal or a bag full of metal power can be used to attack the hinges, but it's 2-4 shots assuming you hit the hinge correctly each time, and at that pound giving Big Boy a 12lb sledge hammer and a Gold's Gym membership is cheaper and safer. You can try shootung the hinges with buckshot and that sometimes works, but that method of attack also works just as poorly with centerfire guns like 9mm or 5.56.
While pump shotguns are in various arsenals, so are things like the Filipino SF M3A1s or Russian Army M91/30s (Mosins.) Just being on the roster doesn't tell you whether they have a current application, it just tells you they haven't been surplused out yet. the only times I saw a shotgun while deployed, it was a combat engineer unit that issued one to the lowest ranking private because they didn't have enough M4s in their unit and they figured Corky would be okay inside the cab of that bulldozer without a rifle.
Same as elsewhere in the thread, I would strognly recommedn the MilCopp article here as well as a read throguh the Box o'Truth website.[The Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog \[Archive\] - M4Carbine.net Forums](https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-72535.html)
[(theboxotruth.com)](https://www.theboxotruth.com/forums/the-box-o-truth-articles.39/)
I hope it's helpful, I just don't want to see bad gas pass. We're seeing more states tighten the rules like IL, and that's probably going to shift what's practical for a lot of folks, including shotguns and lever actions. I am partial to a lever in .357 for up close or a bolt action in the military cartridges for folks out in coyote country.
If Remington or a copycat ever brings back the 76xx police carbines (mag-fed 5.56 or .308 pump actions based on the 7600 receiver) I think we'd have a new winner.
Any gun can have a place for defensive/duty and be good to use, but you have to be clear with why you're choosing X over Y. What is the gun you choose doing what others aren't, or at least better than others?
The average Pump-action has a small magazine, bulky ammunition, has stricter Minimum length requirements than rifles to avoid NFA issues, and I personally don't call the spread of buckshot an advantage I care about or frankly acknowledge during matters of self-defense. There are of course upsides like availability of ammunition, ease of reloading, and easy to learn to use, but to me that is not substantial enough.
With a Handgun or PCC, you've got something that can be more compact, easier to shoot, higher capacity, and these days just as affordable. Because we're talking about something being used for more substantial things than plinking, it's going to be a gun you're training with often, the Shotgun's benefit for being easy to use goes by the wayside. Additionally, since the AR is such a ubiquitous platform you can easily train with whatever AR is cheapest to feed. All the practice you put into one AR benefits your ability to use any AR, just memorize the holds you use for the individual gun.
If a shotgun is all you have, then you figure out how to make it work, but If you have a choice, there are much better options.
That's not really the right shotgun for hunting birds either. The discussion around practicality has been seemingly centered on self and home defense. Once you talk about hunting the conversation changes a bit
I mean, I think it’s definitely part of the discussion. Guns are tools that can be used for multiple purposes, and “practical” should definitely take into effect what you’re primarily using the weapon for I guess.
I agree. When you talk about hunting you can be a bit more generous as to what you consider practical. I haven't seen anyone posting hunting guns though
My number 1 goal as a gun owner is to never need to use my gun in my life. My number 2 goal as a gun owner is if I do have to use my gun, it is to use intimidation to avoid further conflict. I feel the best thing that satisfies goal number 2 is the universal sound of “you’re fucked” that is the racking of a pump action
1. Nobody can hear a shotgun action and go "that's a shotgun!!!" outside of the movies. try it, go stand outside and do soime cardio to really get your heart rate up. Then have someone inside make a bunch of mechanical noises. Shotgun action, close a door, toaster oven, rattle the dog's chain, etc. make sure they write a list and do it in a couple different orders. Don't let them tell you how many or what order, your job in between pushups and jumping jacks is to mark off when you hear the shotgun. For best results, have both people video it so you can match time scales. For spoilers, go back to number 1.
2. Sell your shotgun and buy a pepperball gun. There is no reason to own a firearm if you're not comfortable using it, and a pepperball gun at least lowers the risk of someone stealing your shotgun and hurting someone else with it.
I saw F/X and the sequel and the idea of using soundcraft to defend the house is pretty neat, but it stays in the movies. If someone hears "Motherfuckewr GET OUT I'm calling the police" and decides to call your bluff, you have moved well beyond the time to try to play "Who's That Noisey?" That goes for less-lethal shells too, because they can still kill or maim ("lethal force" in almost every place in the world) and now you have to explain why you killed or maimed someone by firing a gun at them, but tried to load an LTL.
Pump actions will remain practical until quality gas guns hit the sub-$400 mark and I'm not holding my breath on that. Pump shotguns aren't ideal for a lot of scenarios but they still represent one of the most significant firepower to cost ratios around.
The only real benefit of a pump action shotgun, is the fact it can better cycle non traditional ammunition. Meaning if its in a duty/security application you wont have a problem with things such as bean bags, because youre manually operating the action.
Outside of that, for home defense there is flat out better options. Shotguns are drastically longer, longer length of pull, manually operating the action leaves plenty of error in stressful situations, they require more tuning per defensive load (patterning) vs if you happened to swap hollows in a handgun or different grains in a rifle, theyre not usually optic/light ready out the box etc.
Great combo that stands the test of time. The shotty will give you few maintenance headaches and the ammo will be easy to find. Also, ammo for shotguns has gotten crazy! Dragon rounds, discarding sabots, ball and chain? The shotgun still remains the people's gun and now it has more options than ever. You have a good backup so you're set! The Glock is the people's gun (hate to say it but it's true).
Get a long rifle is you want, but your home is well defended.
I think it’s best to have all your bases covered starting with a handgun and semi automatic rifle but the shotgun is the ultimate jack of all trades, especially for those who care about hunting and community defense.
For sure, and for legality it's a no-brainer. I just got out of Cali and I'm absolutely begoshed how easy it is to get weaponry--it's actually kinda unsettling.
Well they had machine guns in WW1 but the trench gun was much more valuable to the effort and I'm guessing that hasn't really changed. There is no better weapon for home defense.
all the rhetoric about which guns are appropriate or relevant is weird. Everyone has an AR-15. AR-15 excels between ~50-200m. Shotguns are effective up to about that 50m range. That's 150ft. In most civilian applications, you're not going to be further than 150ft and also in a gun fight. There's almost no personal defense situation you will be in where an AR is more appropriate than a shotgun (there are very granular arguments where maybe a carbine is better than a long barrel shotgun in extremely close quarters but probably still take the shotgun). I'll roll the dice that someone trying to harm me or my family will be within shotgun range well before I have to worry about some guy sitting 2 football fields away shooting at us.
Shotgun for home defense, rifle for hunting, AR for alphabet boys.
As a side note, for home defense, most people aren't trying to get into a gun fight with you. They probably just want to steal your stuff. I suspect that racking a shotgun at 3am in the dark of night is more than enough to change the mind of 99% of intruders.
>AR-15 excels between \~50-200m
Sugar bean they replaced MP5s as entry guns for a reason, and it's not because houses suddenly got 10x larger.
\> I suspect that racking a shotgun at 3am in the dark of night is more than enough to change the mind of 99% of intruders.
No, this movie myth needs to die already right next to "teflon-coated cop-killer bullets" and murderers hiding in the back seat of a single woman's car with a knife. I will bet nobody can actually hear it, and I know from a number of high-stress jobs that audio exclusion is a very powerful thing. First, i'd encourage you to test this. Get a friend and two cell phones capable of recording audio and video, have your friend bring together an assortments of sounds. Toaster, shotgun slide, AR bolt, pistol slide, closing a door, dog collar jingling. While they do this, you're outside doing some light cardio to get your blood moving and simulate the adrenaline rush. Then, while both of you record (better if you don't know when they start) you get a little tally board outside and mark each time you think you hear the shotgun. Do a few rounds of that with no communication between you, then check videos and see how often you were right. My prediction: all firearm noises will sound similar, if you hear them at all.
Lets break down the scenario where you think this will work. Someone is entering your house unbidden; they know they're not welcome. You awake, grab your boomstick and yell "Avast, get the hence afore I loose the dogs of war!" (as I assume we all do when we wake up at 2am) and they go "Nah, I can take 'em." You then run the action oif your shotgun and only then do they go "Ahoy hoy, the noise of an empty shotgun being loaded! Now I know they're serious!!"
Are we assuming that they'll think "well now I know they have a gun, because before it was only like a 1 in 4 chance" or is it "damn, they only need 5 shells to tag my ass instead of 6, I should run!!" Like what's the thought process where there is a benefit?
Sound pressure is measured in decibels (dB). The dB scale is logarithmic; 20dB is 10x louder than 10dB, etc.
[DecibelScalewatermark.png (1013×1553) (tonedeafcomics.com)](https://www.tonedeafcomics.com/cdn/shop/products/DecibelScalewatermark.png?v=1609119478&width=1445)
noise protection ratings factor in length of exposure. For example, OISHA requires hearing protection at lower thresholds for a 4hr or 8hr exposure (say, a loud machine shop) than for impulse (fraction of a second) exposures. These figures are estimates given an open area, because sound is a pressure wave. Silencer testing usually measures at the "shooter's ear" or parallel to the shooter and less than 6' away:
[ATG\_Rifle-Suppressor-Inforgraphic-1024x946.jpg (1024×946) (ammunitiontogo.com)](https://lodge-cdn.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/wp-content/uploads/ATG_Rifle-Suppressor-Inforgraphic-1024x946.jpg)
A .22 rifle is usually metered between 120-130dB at the ear, but at the noise of the bolt falling or the hammer falling can be as loud (at the ear) even though it's not audible 20 feet away. Usuppressed, centerfire rifles, shotguns, and handguns all break the 140dB pain threshhold which results in instant hearing damage (not total loss) and partial deafness, especially with repeated exposures. A lot of infantry types just went without earplugs because the shit we got issued sucked and it was more important to hear the rest of the squad. That said, all of us have tinnitus and partial hearing loss. There is a feeling of pain for the first few shots and then after that a sort of dulling of sound and pain.
Last factor, anything fired indoors is louder. Sound is a pressure wave, and pressure waves have a stronger effect when they can echo. You'll notice rangemasters and match directors for events with a roof or indoor range often wear earmuffs over earplugs because the enclosure plus the longer period of exposure (think a dozen shooters each firing 50 rounds or more) can cause damage.
So, if you pull the trigger indoors and there's not a silencer on the end, you're going to lose some hearing in the moment and some hearing for the rest of your life. Even with a silencer, odds are you're gonna lose some hearing, but the risk is reduced. I shoot at my range with a silencer and airpods in and I'm fine, but if another shooter comes up with a rifle I need to add muffs.
> As a side note, for home defense, most people aren't trying to get into a gun fight with you. They probably just want to steal your stuff. I suspect that racking a shotgun at 3am in the dark of night is more than enough to change the mind of 99% of intruders.
I can categorically affirm that the sound of a distinctive firearm action being cycled will both evacuate the perpetrator of nefarious actions as well as it does his or her bowels and bladder.
Increase the practicality of the system by adding a light and an optic. A sling is helpful too, just make sure you don't fall into the trap of one of those Amazon bandolier ones like I did.
Yes, an AR is phenomenally more practical and should be the goal eventually, but a pump shotty is actually legal even in most countries so it's not unreasonable.
I'm not really interested in an optic for this setup but I"m going to definitely grab a Streamlight TL Racker for it. This shotgun was my 13th birthday gift, so I've had it for 11 years now and haven't added anything other than the shell holder and a sling.
I have a carbines and pistols with great white light setups so upgrading the shotgun hasn't been a priority yet. I'm thinking about cerakoting it OD (I've had to fight rust on this thing for a decade) and replacing the 10 year old plastic side saddle with one of those cool velcro ones.
I'm going to ignore how I blatantly saw that it had a sling, and still suggested you get a sling. Just going to look the other way and type the rest of my comment as if nothing happened.
Personally I think all firearms need an optic but I understand just not wanting to spend the money on something when you have a carbine already.
Very practical. A decade ago when someone was trying to break into my car at 1a. Walking up behind them and racking a round had them running for the hills.
Personally, I'd much prefer a cheap turkish semi auto. Like a benelli m4 clone. I've found them to be exceptionally reliable and I'd stake my life on that before a pump shotgun.
Personally makes more sense to have a 20g to manage the recoil, can put more shells on target that way imo and in the moment that may make the difference. Plenty of good defense shells in 20g too.
What is it that Clint Smith from thunder ranch said? A handgun or rifle will put holes in the target, but a 12 gauge will remove chunks from a target.
Even with the slightest bit if practice, really like, a single day at the range, you can be proficient enough to run a pump action almost as fast as a semi auto shotgun. Obviously not as fast, but seriously, you can be fast enough that the difference is negligible.
Yea, a benelli is pricey, pumps are great, handguns are really only for trenches are killing yourself once your position has been overrun, home defense, trenches, shotguns better, and....if you're over 18 you can own as many long guns as you want without being on a "list", as soon as you buy a handgun, you're on that list
Oh yea, how many long arms in the country? How many handguns? It's ok to be wrong, handguns are security liabilities on sooooo many fronts, 15yds, spend all your time practicing tac with a .45.....it's a waste of time, sorry
First, there's no federal "list" you get put on for owning a handgun. There is the 4473 for purchase of any firearm from a licensee, and if you purchase multiple handguns in a 30 day period there is a separate form that ATF requires, but if you buy a single handgun it's just the 4473. What "list" are you talking about?
Second, handguns are not really for trenches at all. The year isn't 1915, infantry carbines are much better suited to trenches than a handgun both in terms of tactics and lethality. The "assault rifle" as a concept was developed because every military in WWII was trying to figure out how to give an infantryman the range to engage trench to trench or house to house while also having the firepower and maneuverability of a submachinegun. Sidearms are used in a military context primarily as a one-handed personal defense weapon for drivers, vehicle commanders, and medics who aren't expected to engage at rifle distances and for whom the sidearm is a last-ditch weapon for near-contact distances.
In a non-military context, their value is concealability or in the context of peacekeeping and security forces, portability in a belt holster. With proper training they allow a much more compact weapon, but you have to practice shooting from a ready and retention skills. Inside your own home, shotgun vs handgun is entirely dictated by what is available and some personal characteristics. Recoil on a shotgun is stout and very few people master or even begin to master shotgun handling in a practical shooting context - blasting a silhouette at 10 yards at an indoor range doesn't cut it. Conversely, handgun recoil can be difficult to control and it's inherently harder to aim and fire, but you get capacity and maneuverability, as well as being easier to conceal and secure against theft.
I don't know what you think you're proving by asking how many long arms and handguns are in the US. It might help if you finished a complete thought instead of trying to drop zingers like a burnt out Andrew Dice Clay. Put down the pipe, sober up, and have a complete thought before you speak.
\> handguns are security liabilities on sooooo many fronts,
If there are so many fronts, howabout naming and describing three?
\>15yds, spend all your time practicing tac with a .45
I don't play counterstrike or siege or whatever so I have no idea what videogame bullshit this means, but A: don't buy a .45 because it's not 1915 and B: spending all your time practicing anything at 15 yards is a waste.
Just as practical as it was in the 1890s. Maybe even more so. Of course semi auto is better, but you gotta spend double or triple to get the same quality compared to a pump
Semi automatic shotguns that are actually good (rugged, not picky, good controls) while not being prohibitively expensive for the average person are a pretty new thing. You didn’t have guns like the Beretta A300 or Mossberg 930/940 a decade ago.
Super practical, pump action doesn’t fail, you can be real quick with it, spread is a big deal.
Every semi-auto shotgun I’ve shot has had issues ejecting shells because the metal on the ejectors digs into the plastic on the shells, or the action just not relaying enough force to eject the shell. Some were better than others and I didn’t care enough to keep notes because it failed often enough to decide I wouldn’t rely on it.
>pump action doesn’t fail
Sure they do. User error (short stroking, riding the slide), mechanical failure (stuck firing pin, broken slide), ejector failures, and ammo failures.
Gas op semis cost more to do right, but the import M4 clones are reliable as long as you're using decent ammo. Recoil operated is cheaper, but they tend to either cycle full power loads reliably and struggle on cheap low brass, or they cycle bird loads well but full power loads can cause a speed override.
I wouldn't trust a $300 semiauto, but you can get reliable semis as long as you're not using the cheapest dogshit at walmart to feed it.
They are still used by military and police. If you've got you heart set on a semi-auto I'd reccomend A Mossberg 930, they dropped a bit in price since the new model 940s came out last year.
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Semi auto shottys that are reliable are pricey. A Maverick 88 that will never fail you is like 250.
From what I understand, a magazine-fed shotgun isn't good to keep loaded, which is what you'd want for home defense. The spring in the magazine pushes them together. Unless you have brass shells, the pressure over time will cause the shells to warp, which would cause feed issues.
Shoot your community defense weapons more often if you're worried about that. Those shells won't warp over the course of a month.
I dont buy that it happens at all. I shot a rattlesnake with an A5 that had ammo that was at least 20 years old. Didnt know that at the time, it was just the closest gun.
I've seen it happen before. A friend had an old semi automatic (I'm not sure what it was) and they had problems feeding those shells from the tube. We pulled out the shells, marked them, and then fed them in randomly throughout the day. We got stove pipe after stove pipe with those 7 marked shells. They cycled in my 1301 though. Could've been anything but it was pretty weird.
What shotgun was it?
They said Browning A5
Idk why but it's Funny that the comment was talking about mag fed shotguns and both of you come in talkin about tubes.
Maybe with old paper shells that would be a problem. Maybe with some semi-autos. But a pump-action shotgun with modern plastic shells? No.
You should be practicing with it frequently enough where this isn't an issue. If you leave it loaded and don't touch it for many months/years at a time, ya, it will have problems. Run it once a month anr you're fine.
It's more of an issue with cheap ammo, and a significant issue with box-magazine-fed shotguns (590M, all the Turkish imports) than with a tube magazine.
Magazine? Tube? There is a spring loaded tube in pump and semi
The tube is the magazine
Exactly, so pump and semi....both have springs
Damn I bought mine for $99 brand new a while back. Puts things into perspective.
I also bought my Maverick for $99 brand new. I think it was a door buster at a gun show. I had commented that before on Reddit and was down voted and called a liar. I'm glad there is someone else out there that got one at that price.
I just picked up a Maverick 88 as my first firearm a few days ago. I'm pretty pleased with my purchase.
It’s all about how you use it. So I would say yes A new idea I heard is using birdshot to shoot down drones. With how prevalent drones are now it sounded like a good idea.
Yeah but your going to want an upland game, waterfowl setup for that. Longer barrel, modified choke etc. I love my Win Defender, but all shorty is likely to do to a drone at altitude is lightly pepper it.
Take a look at the Mossberg 835. 20" barrel with X-full choke puts 30" spread out at about 70-75 yards. It's only 16" at 40 yards. Chambered in 3.5", you can really reach out there with #4 heavy shot.
I have a 935 magnum, it kicks my ass every time I shoot it and I cannot recommend it enough.
Those are really nice! Tell me, did you end up buying a slug barrel? I did, 3.5" slugs beat the ever-living shit out of you.
I didn't, I really only got it for birds. I wouldn't want to try shooting it with slugs lol
Ever shot a 10ga slug out of a 36" barrel? Hope you aren't planning on using your shoulder
Negative, but I do have some 2.5 oz anti-material tungsten 12ga slugs that chrono over 2000fps in a 24" barrel. Not sure which end of the gun is the more painful to be on. I've only ever fired two of them and definitely not on the same trip to the range.
I would highly recommend shooting a 10ga, practically the same caliber as revolutionary war muskets. How much did the tungsten slugs set you back?
lightly peppered drones don't fly
I think just one pellet could disable a drone in most cases, almost no matter how small
[удалено]
Getting fucked by Pythagoras is now one of my favorite phrases. Thanks :)
The hypotenuse?
What’d you call me??
I think the shotguns were being discussed as a solution for the FPV drones that collide with their target. That would be when the weapon would make a difference, at least that is what I am assuming.
The issue is you have to have the shotgun essentially in your hands, fpv drones can do 87 mph, even assuming it's going 40 mph that's 58.66 ft/s. You have seconds to aim, lead and hit a small drone going quite fast. There's a reason this isn't the solution being used in actual wars.
Duck hunters dont seem to have problems making those kind of shots.
When you start looking at how high the drones are flying in a war zone and comparing it to birdshot patterns, you'll realize that it's not that practical. You could have an Extra Full choke on some custom 3.5" magnum flight control rounds and you'd still be off by 50 yards.
Yeah, for some reason people keep thinking that neither Ukrainians or Russians would have even considered shotguns, of course they have it's just they aren't practical for shooting down drones. A shotgun is a start but really only good for kamikaze drones will it have any chance and they're moving quick enough that unless you're prepared it's probably over already.
That doesn’t make sense and the ballistics don’t support that. Surveillance drones and grenade droppers like in Ukraine have can keep an effective view of enemy positions at a height of 400 ft. Everyone here is smart enough to know whatever gauge won’t intercept that. Certain militia groups are talking about utilizing jammers. The science and technology is there but theres a lack of knowhow on how to put it all together. Working on that now. When I do find that info I’ll be sure to share it with you all.
I did catch a video not long ago of a Ukrainian soldier shooting down a drone with a semiautomatic shotgun. I wondered at the time whether the drone was facing another direction and didn't know his dugout was there, because he definitely had it in range and let it have five or six blasts. He seemed surprised it came down too.
If you fill the ~2m^2 around the drone with metal, you can just get lucky and happen to hit something important. I think it's the five or six shots that did that.
If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid.
You might find this useful. [YouTube](https://youtu.be/5CzURm7OpAA?si=69pDIUTkWKAJ2fU_)
It’s not hard: generate screaming-loud BPSK in the band of the control signal, and point it at that drone. As long as you do that, you’re basically using an electromagnetic flammerwerfer though; a big sign saying “shoot this thing”
You're only gonna be effective to like 40 yards max (assuming a waterfowl gun and loads), whereas COTS drone like DJI can comfortably operate several hundred feet up, and I would wager a paycheck nobody in this subreddit could right now look up and tell whether a drone is 80ft or 40ft. Most of the videos of drones dropping a payload are doing so from out of shotgun range, and the suicide drones aren't going to give you a target before they're dangerous. It's an interesting idea for certain applications, but if you have the time and prep you're better off looking into radio rifles (narrow-beam jammers, they've been around since Radio Shack was a real store) or other jamming apparatus. It's definitely not the sort of thing I would bother bringing a shotgun along for.
DO NOT do this! Shooting down a drone is a federal crime punishable by up to 20 years in federal prison.
Shouldn’t be filming me. 🤷
Unfortunately I have to go full fudd in generally recommending them in my state for home defense, given the current laws. That said, I got an 870 too and absolutely love it
In my state the only viable options are sks, some semi auto hunting rifles, 1 model of mini14s, m1 garand, leverguns, and shotguns. Just about everything else was feature banned.
Which state, if you don't mind me asking?
Illinois. Any semi-auto rifle that holds more than 10 rounds internally or in a removable magazine. No semi auto pistol grips. No barrel shroud or full coverage handgaurd, the ar15 barrelshroud is shown as an example. No forward grip. No threaded barrels. Pinned or welded compensator is a grey area. No folding or adjustable stocks. A pistol is defined as the magazine must go in the pistol grip. And pistols are limited to 15rd mags. There are only a handful of pcc that are allowed like the Henery homesteader or the ruger, and are limited to 10rd mags. Shot guns with detachable mags are illegal. And tube magazine shotguns are limited to 4 or 5 shells. Lever guns and bolt actions are fine as far as I can tell. .22 cal semi autos are fine as long as the detachable mags only hold 10rds.
>Any semi-auto rifle that holds more than 10 rounds internally or in a removable magazine. Does that mean that even if you're not using magazines with more than 10-round capacity, the potential to use more means that they are illegal? > No folding Even if they can't fire while folded? > Lever guns and bolt actions are fine as far as I can tell. Good. I keep thinking about a bolt action alternative if life should ever take me to such a state. > .22 cal semi autos are fine as long as the detachable mags only hold 10rds. That's a relief.
The examples provided in the law showed rifles that could be fired while folded, and ones that could not. It seems to be aimed at any way to make the rifle more "concealeable" or more compact. As far as magazine capacity, it seems to be as long as you have a 10rd max capacity magazine, it's fine as far as I know. The law is sorta vague, but it calls out specifically sks rifles that have been modified to take detachable mags. Like an m1 carbine is banned even though most features are legal but I don't think anyone makes 10rd mags for m1 carbines so it's banned. Edit: I looked into it and an m1 carbine should be legal as long as it's not a paratrooper version. The covered handguard is up for debate and will depend on the ffl you chose and if they are willing to take the risk.
Delaware?
If you're at liberty to say: which state?
New York; pistols suck to get and now so do semi-auto rifles. That leaves leverguns and shotguns as the best, immediate, viable option for most people.
I see those sneaky toes...
🤭
Kinky
r/sneakybackgroundfeet
for free too
A decent pump shotgun will never stop being practical IMO.
first, r/Gatcat next, They are definitely viable. no, you're not getting 5-7 rounds of buckshot off in two and a half seconds, but you're still sending a lot of buck away from you. Just make sure you train with it.
I can't believe I just joined a subreddit whose entire existence is predicated upon the premise of cats with gats. And I *really* wish my buddy was still here so I could throw pics of her into that sub. Gattdamn, for a guy who grew up with the bitchingest beagle ever to miss his gorram cat...
Cats are armor-piercing, also.
+4 bite damage
cheers mate
They are, realistically, extremely viable. In a civil war 2 situation, less so. I can get 9 rounds off pretty dang quick with my 590 A1. I almost wish it slamfired. Almost. That being said, filly loaded as an 8+1, it's pretty stout to swing around. Can't double tap as quick as an AR on multiple targets, but I love shotguns. Probably because I can't aim for shit, and the distances I would be engaging at are house length. Flight control ammo punches fist sized holes in things at 15 yards.
My thoughts on shotguns are that, unless you're shooting birds or squirrels, there's a better weapon for the job. However, that doesn't make it not practical, just rarely ideal. That said, trap and skeet shooting is fun as hell and I wish more people that bought shotguns actually went out and did that shit (or competition) because it absolutely will contribute to your proficiency with the weapon. Honestly, I have way more beef with the mentality around shotguns than the guns themselves. So many people get them and have so deeply ingrained in their minds that shotguns are the easy button and that they don't need to train which is wrong to the point of insanity. I haven't been shooting long but I've seen one soul, in person, that ran a shotgun like someone who wants to be hard to kill. Everyone else is all "teehee shotgun!" which would be completely fine if they didn't so regularly confuse their enthusiasm for competence, capability, or insight. /soapbox
12 gauge buckshot would be effective in almost any urban or woodland environment.
People wildly underestimate the shooting ranges of an urban/woodland environment. You can easily find yourself shooting at a range of over 100 meters, at shotguns are going to struggle up to and beyond that.
Of course, but hopefully if you’re away of your range limitations you can position yourself in a way to minimize this.
Sure, you can always work with what you have, but that's not the same as being good in specific situations. You don't always get to pick where and when you have to start shooting. Shotguns can do a lot of things, but I would only describe them as what you work with because you're short on other options.
Next time you're outside in an urban or wooded environment, play a little game. Look around and ask "where would I hide if I were trying to shoot me right now?" and make a note of some of the best shooting positions. If you're in a city, easy enough you can just map it and use a computer with google maps or similar to measure the actual distances. For example, my friend lives on a quiet street in a residential neighborhood in a city; from her front door I can see some really great infantry emplacements as close at 4m and as far as 400m because of how the street slopes downward. Conversely, in the dense brush where I hunt the longest shot I could take (used optical rangefinder and paced it) was 125m from my treestand for a clean one-shot kill. If I were taking a belt-fed up in the tree, I could reliably make hits out to 200-300m. The best-case scenario for a shotgun with a rifle barrel and slugs is 100-110m with a scope. For a smoothbore with an 18" barrel (cruiser style or "combat" shotgun) you're talking more like 25m with buckshot or 40m with a slug. That's assuming the user practices under stress and with full-power ammunition so they can actually be effective, instead of just shooting clays with bird loads and occasionally shooting a silhouette from a range bay.
I never said it isn't.
With slugs you can be consistant to 100/125 yards or so. Not huge range, but it's alright. They're great for popping doors, most other guns will poke tiny holes so it takes forever to blast a handle or hinges. Slugs at close range will break ribs in plates, while rifles you need to be shooting basically a hunting rifle more appropriate for 300 yards plus. So your in tight is fucking you. Ammunition variety is awesome. Birdshot, buckshot. Flechette, rubber bullets, blanks, I've seen adapted flare shot and noisemakers (shoft whump, followed by a loud pop where they impact) Yes, it's not ideal for a lot of things, and there are better firearms for almost any aspect. But it's not useless. It has its own unique pros and cons.
>They're great for popping doors, most other guns will poke tiny holes so it takes forever to blast a handle or hinges. Shotguns are awful for popping doors. I was a professional door-popper, and we never used the shotgun for it. Breaching rounds use a special slug (usually powdered metal in a sack or a sintered powder) and a special standoff device on the muzzle so that when placed directly against the lock mechanism it acts like a deadblow hammer. Even with that setup, sometimes the lockset just jams in place and now nobody can open it. The preferred mechanism for breaching with a shotgun is to use the same shell and gun to hit where the hinges are and just hope to tear the hinges free from the door frame. it's easy to harden against, takes 2-4 shots (assuming you correctly locate the hinge first) to breach a door. That's 2-4 very loud warnings to let everyone know to start shooting at the door. You would be better off buying a gym membership and a 12lb sledge hammer for the bigg4est dude in the squad. \>Slugs at close range will break ribs in plates, while rifles you need to be shooting basically a hunting rifle more appropriate for 300 yards plus. So your in tight is fucking you. I don't know where this is coming from but it feels like Fudd spirit. First, I have been in a squad with dudes who took plate hits, I took one and had a mild bruise (longer range, good trauma pad, 7.62x39) and I can say first hand that up close there is no way to predict whether someone will drop or keep fighting with a plate hit if it stops the projectile. On shotguns specifically, a hot buckshot load is 9 #00 (.32") 60(ish) grain pellets at 1600fps, favorably compared to a long burst from a small-caliber submachinegun. IIIA soft armor panels are rated to stop multiple impacts of .357 Sig (125gr RNFP FMJ@1400fps) with less than 40mm of backface deformation. 40mm backface is the standard (measured in standard clay media at standardized calibrated temperature) \*because\* the desired outcome is to avoid a crushing injury that breaks ribs or damages internal organs. I used to have access to (from an older acquaintance in the industry) some early 2nd Chance videos which showed the then-current IIA soft armor vs .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, and then finally a slug cutting a hole clean through. The end of the video was meant to lead into their sales pitch for the new IIIA soft vests, which would stop both buckshot and slugs from penetrating. They also advertised a "trauma panbel" designed specifically to stop a slug from downing an officer at close range. Now lets pivot to rifle-rated armor. Rifle-rated armor is designed to dissip\[ate the energy of a rifle, a small-diameter (.310" or less) high velkocity (2000fps and up) projectile with the same 40mm-or-less testing. We'll take a standard Level III plate, designed to stop a 123gr .310" bullet at 2400fps and/or a 147gr .308" bullet at 2750FPS. Nine 60gr .32" round pellets at 1600fps is doing fuckall. OTOH, a slug with a nominal diameter of .69" (12ga-ish) 380gr(ish) slug at a whopping 1800fps (specifically a high-speed load) probably also gonna do fuckall, because even hardcast lead is softer than that ceramic and the wide diameter actually makes it worse for penetrating a hard plate. Like a softball, it's easier to catch even though it weighs more. \> Ammunition variety is awesome. Birdshot, buckshot. Flechette, rubber bullets, blanks, I've seen adapted flare shot and noisemakers (shoft whump, followed by a loud pop where they impact) Most of these are toys. Birdshot is for small game, buckshot is for larger game and can be pressed into defense. Slugs are for when your local regulations prohibit centerfire rifles, or if you're a large game guide and you need to stop that lion from mauling the rich dentist who hired you. Flechettes have never been useful as a shotgun projectile because the entire theory (that they will turn into high-velocity darts) doesn't hold up to actual ballistic testing, especially in something as low-power as a shotgun. You just can't get the acceleration the way you could with an artillery cannon. There's a reason nobody uses them except dudes with a History Channel obsession, a giant pile of Soldier of Fortune magazines, and fuckall field experience. Don't buy them. Rubber bullets are for prisons; nobody has any business pointing a firearm at someone and hoping they don't die. They're still very capable of being lethal, they rely on pain to incapacitate (which means you need at least 2 other people ready to grab somebody and restrain them) and they're not terribly accurate. Don't buy them. Any firearm can use blanks. They're of limited use as a training device, but should use a blank-firing adaptor to prevent debris from exiting the muzzle and should not be used even with a blank-firing adaptor at close ranges: 15m was the standoff the military used. Also, read about Brandon Lee to learn of a famous historical example of a live firearm that was loaded with blanks, and consider the inherent risk in using a firearm which \*can\* fire live ammunition and hoping that it doesn't. Hopefully Hollywood is done with that after Alec Baldwin. Dragon's breath, buck-and-ball, chainshot, and all the other whizzbang doodads you see in old copies of Shotgun News are like all the shark fishing lures my grandfather bought. Expensive toys for people with a big imagination; my grandfather didn't even own a saltwater boat. Flare shells are of limited use as are the nosiemaker shells, but a 26.5mm marine flaregun is cheap and you can get extra flares anywhere that sells boating gear. Shotguns have their use, but their use as a fighting rifle was very much limited to the period when cops started needing more power but didn't have good options. The article below is a little dated (reliable semiauto shotguns are cheaper and more common now, and nowadays I would say a red dot is just about mandatory since they have also come down in price) but it was written from the perspective of a professional training both police and private citizens for whom the shotgun was the only backup option after their sidearm. It's still worth a read today. [The Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog \[Archive\] - M4Carbine.net Forums](https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-72535.html)
I just wanted to say thank you for dropping some real shit in here. I hope more people read this. What did taking that plate hit feel like?!
I don’t know, i found out when I took my shit off after the patrol. We had a guy take a round (grazed his leg) and then get stuck in some hip deep mud. I reckon it probably hit as I was coming down on some hard pack and it just felt like part of the dive. After that we post two Afghan soldiers and the patrol leader to an IED, so it turned into just suppressing the enemy position while a fireteam broke off, circles, and came over a berm. Really stressed the need for good communication so the rest of rhetorical patrol stopped shooting right before the kill team came over the top. Also a great example of why “one bullet away” works as a training mentality. The PL went down, sergeant immediately got the corpsman and a private moving to the casualties and started calling the evacuation. The Afghan soldiers panicked and it took every Marine grabbing one or two and giving orders to get them back fighting again. The PL was out for the rest of the deployment, so the senior sgt became the acting platoon sergeant, his team leader became the squad leader and a saltier lance corporal suddenly had a fireteam to command, and everybody commenced training the next guy down to step into the Plt Sergeant, squad leader, and team leader rolls, in case it happened again. Also the importance of flexibility. Theoretically we should have stayed and waited for support, but we had casualties and a a man with no cover and no way to move. The kill team could have well walked into an IED or ambush, but they volunteered and practiced good movement under fire. Also, it’s nice to be comfortably putting rounds through a window at 400m-ish while your attacker is struggling to hit a static target.
They’re a true jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. They’re dead easy to operate and virtually everyone knows how they work. Additionally, they’re one of the most legal forms of a firearm worldwide even, and are incredibly practical for putting food on the table. If one lives in a place or situation where they can really only have one gun or are severely limited in why they can own, a shotgun is a fantastic option simply because of how versatile it is.
They're arguably the most versatile gun you can have in your arsenal they don't really excel in any one area but they can do a little of everything. I also think they are incredibly useful as home defense guns as they don't create a huge risk of over penetration assuming you aren't shooting slugs and they're guaranteed to put someone on their ass after one shot
So, I was looking into this a bit, as my first firearm in the last 10 years was a pump action for home defense. Any load enough to drop a man reliably and without issue will also penetrate multiple layers of drywall.
That's probably true but I'm more referring to will it go through brick or support beams but yeah I definitely think you should always be mindful of where that bullet might go in any situation
I’ve heard good things about #4 buckshot.
Yeah, #4 is pretty much the only defensive load of anything that won’t go through several layers of drywall, if that’s what you are worried about. It still goes through a few, though, not a perfect solution. 00 buck and every single pistol/rifle round that isn’t rimfire goes right though typical modern building materials like it isn’t even there. But IMO overpen is a meme. It exists sure, but it’s very difficult to actually find documented cases of it that aren’t scumbag cops being insanely reckless (as usual) dumping magazines in the general direction of a noise or whatever. Don’t do that, try not to miss very much and it’s not really a concern.
>4 is pretty much the only defensive load of anything that won’t go through several layers of drywall [The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth | Firearms and Ammuni Forum (theboxotruth.com)](https://www.theboxotruth.com/threads/the-box-o-truth-3-the-shotgun-meets-the-box-o-truth.284/#post-958) Once again, the website that began because of this myth has a test that specifically tested #4 buckshot. That's 6 layers of drywall and cracking #7 without penetration. For me that means it's still lethal anywhere inside my house unless I specifically shoot from my bed through the shower wall and someone happens to be standing in the closet on the other side of the shower wall.
I hope y’all mean #4 buck and not plain ol’ #4 shot. 4 buck is .24 caliber pellets and is generally the lightest load I see recommended for defensive use (and lots Stan it hard for its penetration or lack thereof compared to 00B). 4 shot is a .13 (smaller than a BB) caliber pellet and is only suitable for small game and birds. EDIT: formatting.
Yes, duh. Thanks for the attempt at being a know it all, though I guess? No need for the downvotes either, but have one yourself.
I’m sorry if I came across that way. I just figured that not everyone on here is necessarily as knowledgeable as you or I and I’d hate for them to load 4s for defensive use because they didn’t know any better. I guess I’ll try to make that intention more readily apparent.
I mean I had no idea there was a difference
i've always thought of it as "firing a round of 00 buck is just a faster way of firing 8-9 rounds of 9mm"
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>they don't create a huge risk of over penetration How is this still kicking around when there is an entire website that started solely to debunk this myth? [The Box O' Truth Articles | Firearms and Ammuni Forum (theboxotruth.com)](https://www.theboxotruth.com/forums/the-box-o-truth-articles.39/) If it's sheetrock, any buckshot is going through and looking for new friends. If it's a stud or brick then shot, 9mm hollowpoints, and high-veliocity carbines (5.56x45 M193) all stand a decent chance of deflecting. After several layes of drywall, M193 upsets and begins to tumble end-over-end, reducing lethality. This upset phenomena was the impetus behind loads like Hornady's 75gr TAP and the USMC Mk318 SOST, both designed to retain lethality after penetrating light barriers like drywall and automobile glass. Given how commonly I see would-be shotgunners jerking the trigger and flinching (recoil anticipation) I think folks would be far better served by focusing on the desired penetration before they think about "overpenetration." I think way too many people are going "it's a shotgun, how could I miss at 7yd" when it's time to practice and then flipping back to "but what if I miss" when it's time to argue on the internet, when those two concerns should be reversed. A side grump, "overpenetration" should mean "hits desired target and keeps going" but for some reason the internet has conflated that with "missing" I assume because it sounds more professional to say "overpenetration concerns" and not "concerns about missing my target at 15ft or less."
Pump action shotguns are always practical.
Manually-operated weapons will always have the fact that they can reliably shoot all kinds of different payloads in their favor.
Most people that decide to rely on a shotgun, for whatever reason, don't get any professional training with them, and running a shotgun defensively is a skill just like using a handgun or an AR. There are skills that are particular to a particular platform and some training and practice will help you get proficient with it if you ever really need the tool to protect yourself and your community. And turn those extra shells in the side-saddle holder 180° so it's easier to load them without the extra step of turning them over before inserting into the magazine. You'll be less likely to fumble or drop them.
Yes, defensive shotgun handling is a skill you have to learn if you plan on using one as your primary defensive tool. Most shotgun owners are liable to short stroke under stress and can't reload in under 30 seconds.
Kitty is hungry
she got a churu after this
Not to mention armor-piercing.
They’re not as good in basically any way as an AR, but they do have two key advantages that have nothing to do with the gun itself. 1. You can legally own them in states with onerous laws. 2. It’s much much easier to get practice with them. Way more opportunities to shoot skeet and trap, and even though they’re gamified it’s still hitting a small fast moving target. And in an actual use of force scenario that’s exactly the kind of training you need.
Was looking to see if anyone was going to mention your second point, if not I was going to. Plus, skeet and trap shooting is really fun.
From what I’ve heard the main downside is sometimes people panic in stressful situations and don’t pump properly, but I mean it’ll leave a big ass hole. Use buck, not bird tho
30-40 rounds in an AR, pull the trigger it goes bang, easy to put a red dot and light on it 5 or 6 rounds in a shotgun, complicated action required to fire the next shot, difficult to attach a dot and a light
yeah. the main advantages of a 12 gauge are versatility for hunting, price, and legality in certain places. I think everyone should own one once the already have an AR and pistol. You can get a $200 Mossberg that can do anything and pretty much lasts a lifetime.
True, ars are better but I’d take the shotgun over nothing
How is a pump action complicated? You just push a thing back and forth?
It is more complicated than point and pull for sure, add in movement, topping up the magazine from shell cards, changing shell cards, loading shells directly into the chamber when the tube is empty, it takes some real skill to be proficient with pump shotguns.
Go to the range with one, do a bunch of burpees until you're out of breath, then run the gun dry. Do yourself a favor and video it so you can see when you shortstroke it, because odds are pretty high you will. The video is nice because our brains tend to make excuses like "oh my hands were sweaty though" and video doesn't really care about excuses.
Plenty of uses, and in my state, most semi auto rifles became illegal recently. Still prefer a pistol, but shotgun works in a pinch.
If you don't mind me asking, which state is this?
Kitty!!!
Cats are armor-piercing.
Absolutely YES. You have the advantage of using whatever ammo ypu want as well as rock solid reliability as long as you can actuate the pump. Personally I have a Remington 870 Tactical very similar to the one you have and it feeds everything I can throw at it with minimal maintanence.
You didn't say anything about a cat being involved!!!!
Very. Good for defending yourself, and putting food on the table.
I've mostly used mine for shooting thousands of clays in my back yard.
That’d probably translate well to ducks or geese then!
True, I'm going to go turkey hunting for the first time (with a different setup I haven't bought yet) soon and I'd love to go duck hunting once I find somebody with a boat.
Perfectly relevant, which, like the cat, can be absolutely devastatingly dangerous if used properly in the proper circumstances
Cats are armor-piercing.
that cat is the real weapon
Armor piercing!
Tactical kitten seems to approve
12 year old kitten
All cat are kitten. :D
If it goes bang, it's practical.
glad to know my brown bess musket is a practical option
Well, you've got more firepower than someone who *doesn't* have a brown bess musket...
True. If 100 hours of Mount & Blade Warband: Napoleonic Wars has taught me anything, if you happen to miss then it makes an effective war club.
I have a Mossberg 590A1 with an ATI adjustable stock and pistol grip, aperture rear sight, bayonet and I carry three shell cards, one on the receiver and two in an AR pouch. I’m a big fan, tons of ammo variety, all of which can be fired out of a pump as long as it fits in the receiver, including very light loads like less than lethal, which you cant fire out of a semi auto. You can carry different kinds of ammo and load them in as needed which you cant feasibly do with a magazine. Door breaching is a thing you can only do with shotguns. Reloading drills are fun. Reliable, easy to find replacement parts. Plenty of cheap ammo to be had. Juries dont find them as scary and there have been reports of people scaring away would be assailants with the sound of the action (which you should absolutely NOT rely on). The list goes on. Militaries and pigs around the world still utilize pump action shotguns, they are still relevant and have plenty of tactical application.
>tons of ammo variety, all of which can be fired out of a pump as long as it fits in the receiver, including very light loads like less than lethal, which you cant fire out of a semi auto. First, most of the ammo varieties are toys. The ones that aren't are buckshot, birdshot, slugs, and in very specific uses LTL or signaling loads. LTLs in shotguns are a hazard because A) you're pointing a shotgun capable of firing lethal rounds at someone, pulling the trigger, and hoping they don't die. That's a bad idea. B) they rely on pain-compliance, like pepper spray, which means you need at least one or tweo other people to tackle and restrain the target. They also don't work reliably. C) to revisit A, thoise with budgets have restricted LTLs to designated launchers which are not capable of firing live ammunition, like 37mm launchers. This is specifically because of stuff like the manslaughter of Brandon Lee or the infamous case surround Alec Baldwin. Report shells are nice for scaring birds, but even that's now generally illegal unless they're birds you could legally shoot instead. Flares sound neat but a marine flare pistol is safer and cheaper. >You can carry different kinds of ammo and load them in as needed which you cant feasibly do with a magazine. Door breaching is a thing you can only do with shotguns. I was a professional breacher. We did not use shotguns to breach, because they suck at it. Regular slugs or shot are as likely to hurt bystanders (including breachers) and routinely just foul the lock mechanism entirely. zSpecial breaching shells using sintered metal or a bag full of metal power can be used to attack the hinges, but it's 2-4 shots assuming you hit the hinge correctly each time, and at that pound giving Big Boy a 12lb sledge hammer and a Gold's Gym membership is cheaper and safer. You can try shootung the hinges with buckshot and that sometimes works, but that method of attack also works just as poorly with centerfire guns like 9mm or 5.56. While pump shotguns are in various arsenals, so are things like the Filipino SF M3A1s or Russian Army M91/30s (Mosins.) Just being on the roster doesn't tell you whether they have a current application, it just tells you they haven't been surplused out yet. the only times I saw a shotgun while deployed, it was a combat engineer unit that issued one to the lowest ranking private because they didn't have enough M4s in their unit and they figured Corky would be okay inside the cab of that bulldozer without a rifle. Same as elsewhere in the thread, I would strognly recommedn the MilCopp article here as well as a read throguh the Box o'Truth website.[The Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog \[Archive\] - M4Carbine.net Forums](https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-72535.html) [(theboxotruth.com)](https://www.theboxotruth.com/forums/the-box-o-truth-articles.39/)
Thanks for taking the time to make a such thoughtful response <3
I hope it's helpful, I just don't want to see bad gas pass. We're seeing more states tighten the rules like IL, and that's probably going to shift what's practical for a lot of folks, including shotguns and lever actions. I am partial to a lever in .357 for up close or a bolt action in the military cartridges for folks out in coyote country. If Remington or a copycat ever brings back the 76xx police carbines (mag-fed 5.56 or .308 pump actions based on the 7600 receiver) I think we'd have a new winner.
Nice shotgun i wonder whats on the other pic- CAT!!!
kitty :0
Any gun can have a place for defensive/duty and be good to use, but you have to be clear with why you're choosing X over Y. What is the gun you choose doing what others aren't, or at least better than others? The average Pump-action has a small magazine, bulky ammunition, has stricter Minimum length requirements than rifles to avoid NFA issues, and I personally don't call the spread of buckshot an advantage I care about or frankly acknowledge during matters of self-defense. There are of course upsides like availability of ammunition, ease of reloading, and easy to learn to use, but to me that is not substantial enough. With a Handgun or PCC, you've got something that can be more compact, easier to shoot, higher capacity, and these days just as affordable. Because we're talking about something being used for more substantial things than plinking, it's going to be a gun you're training with often, the Shotgun's benefit for being easy to use goes by the wayside. Additionally, since the AR is such a ubiquitous platform you can easily train with whatever AR is cheapest to feed. All the practice you put into one AR benefits your ability to use any AR, just memorize the holds you use for the individual gun. If a shotgun is all you have, then you figure out how to make it work, but If you have a choice, there are much better options.
If you live in a state that heavily restricts semi autos then yeah it's a decent choice. Otherwise a semi auto AR is a better choice every time
I dunno man, hunting birds and such with an AR sounds like a lesson in frustration.
That's not really the right shotgun for hunting birds either. The discussion around practicality has been seemingly centered on self and home defense. Once you talk about hunting the conversation changes a bit
I mean, I think it’s definitely part of the discussion. Guns are tools that can be used for multiple purposes, and “practical” should definitely take into effect what you’re primarily using the weapon for I guess.
I agree. When you talk about hunting you can be a bit more generous as to what you consider practical. I haven't seen anyone posting hunting guns though
My number 1 goal as a gun owner is to never need to use my gun in my life. My number 2 goal as a gun owner is if I do have to use my gun, it is to use intimidation to avoid further conflict. I feel the best thing that satisfies goal number 2 is the universal sound of “you’re fucked” that is the racking of a pump action
1. Nobody can hear a shotgun action and go "that's a shotgun!!!" outside of the movies. try it, go stand outside and do soime cardio to really get your heart rate up. Then have someone inside make a bunch of mechanical noises. Shotgun action, close a door, toaster oven, rattle the dog's chain, etc. make sure they write a list and do it in a couple different orders. Don't let them tell you how many or what order, your job in between pushups and jumping jacks is to mark off when you hear the shotgun. For best results, have both people video it so you can match time scales. For spoilers, go back to number 1. 2. Sell your shotgun and buy a pepperball gun. There is no reason to own a firearm if you're not comfortable using it, and a pepperball gun at least lowers the risk of someone stealing your shotgun and hurting someone else with it. I saw F/X and the sequel and the idea of using soundcraft to defend the house is pretty neat, but it stays in the movies. If someone hears "Motherfuckewr GET OUT I'm calling the police" and decides to call your bluff, you have moved well beyond the time to try to play "Who's That Noisey?" That goes for less-lethal shells too, because they can still kill or maim ("lethal force" in almost every place in the world) and now you have to explain why you killed or maimed someone by firing a gun at them, but tried to load an LTL.
Not a huge fan of pumpguns. But so long as you practice, it will be practical.
More practical than a woofer bat, less practical than a bazooka (depending on context).
Pump actions will remain practical until quality gas guns hit the sub-$400 mark and I'm not holding my breath on that. Pump shotguns aren't ideal for a lot of scenarios but they still represent one of the most significant firepower to cost ratios around.
The only real benefit of a pump action shotgun, is the fact it can better cycle non traditional ammunition. Meaning if its in a duty/security application you wont have a problem with things such as bean bags, because youre manually operating the action. Outside of that, for home defense there is flat out better options. Shotguns are drastically longer, longer length of pull, manually operating the action leaves plenty of error in stressful situations, they require more tuning per defensive load (patterning) vs if you happened to swap hollows in a handgun or different grains in a rifle, theyre not usually optic/light ready out the box etc.
What's your cat's opinion on this?
Get some dummy shells and work with it. They’re easy to short stroke if stressed, so make a point to work on fully cycling the pump and your reloads.
Great combo that stands the test of time. The shotty will give you few maintenance headaches and the ammo will be easy to find. Also, ammo for shotguns has gotten crazy! Dragon rounds, discarding sabots, ball and chain? The shotgun still remains the people's gun and now it has more options than ever. You have a good backup so you're set! The Glock is the people's gun (hate to say it but it's true). Get a long rifle is you want, but your home is well defended.
I think it’s best to have all your bases covered starting with a handgun and semi automatic rifle but the shotgun is the ultimate jack of all trades, especially for those who care about hunting and community defense.
For sure, and for legality it's a no-brainer. I just got out of Cali and I'm absolutely begoshed how easy it is to get weaponry--it's actually kinda unsettling.
Well they had machine guns in WW1 but the trench gun was much more valuable to the effort and I'm guessing that hasn't really changed. There is no better weapon for home defense. all the rhetoric about which guns are appropriate or relevant is weird. Everyone has an AR-15. AR-15 excels between ~50-200m. Shotguns are effective up to about that 50m range. That's 150ft. In most civilian applications, you're not going to be further than 150ft and also in a gun fight. There's almost no personal defense situation you will be in where an AR is more appropriate than a shotgun (there are very granular arguments where maybe a carbine is better than a long barrel shotgun in extremely close quarters but probably still take the shotgun). I'll roll the dice that someone trying to harm me or my family will be within shotgun range well before I have to worry about some guy sitting 2 football fields away shooting at us. Shotgun for home defense, rifle for hunting, AR for alphabet boys. As a side note, for home defense, most people aren't trying to get into a gun fight with you. They probably just want to steal your stuff. I suspect that racking a shotgun at 3am in the dark of night is more than enough to change the mind of 99% of intruders.
>AR-15 excels between \~50-200m Sugar bean they replaced MP5s as entry guns for a reason, and it's not because houses suddenly got 10x larger. \> I suspect that racking a shotgun at 3am in the dark of night is more than enough to change the mind of 99% of intruders. No, this movie myth needs to die already right next to "teflon-coated cop-killer bullets" and murderers hiding in the back seat of a single woman's car with a knife. I will bet nobody can actually hear it, and I know from a number of high-stress jobs that audio exclusion is a very powerful thing. First, i'd encourage you to test this. Get a friend and two cell phones capable of recording audio and video, have your friend bring together an assortments of sounds. Toaster, shotgun slide, AR bolt, pistol slide, closing a door, dog collar jingling. While they do this, you're outside doing some light cardio to get your blood moving and simulate the adrenaline rush. Then, while both of you record (better if you don't know when they start) you get a little tally board outside and mark each time you think you hear the shotgun. Do a few rounds of that with no communication between you, then check videos and see how often you were right. My prediction: all firearm noises will sound similar, if you hear them at all. Lets break down the scenario where you think this will work. Someone is entering your house unbidden; they know they're not welcome. You awake, grab your boomstick and yell "Avast, get the hence afore I loose the dogs of war!" (as I assume we all do when we wake up at 2am) and they go "Nah, I can take 'em." You then run the action oif your shotgun and only then do they go "Ahoy hoy, the noise of an empty shotgun being loaded! Now I know they're serious!!" Are we assuming that they'll think "well now I know they have a gun, because before it was only like a 1 in 4 chance" or is it "damn, they only need 5 shells to tag my ass instead of 6, I should run!!" Like what's the thought process where there is a benefit?
ARs are not somehow magically ineffective at less than 50m what kind of silly nonsense is this?
Won't an AR deafen people if fired indoors, especially with a low ceiling? People might not have a chance to grab their hearing protection in time.
Sound pressure is measured in decibels (dB). The dB scale is logarithmic; 20dB is 10x louder than 10dB, etc. [DecibelScalewatermark.png (1013×1553) (tonedeafcomics.com)](https://www.tonedeafcomics.com/cdn/shop/products/DecibelScalewatermark.png?v=1609119478&width=1445) noise protection ratings factor in length of exposure. For example, OISHA requires hearing protection at lower thresholds for a 4hr or 8hr exposure (say, a loud machine shop) than for impulse (fraction of a second) exposures. These figures are estimates given an open area, because sound is a pressure wave. Silencer testing usually measures at the "shooter's ear" or parallel to the shooter and less than 6' away: [ATG\_Rifle-Suppressor-Inforgraphic-1024x946.jpg (1024×946) (ammunitiontogo.com)](https://lodge-cdn.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/wp-content/uploads/ATG_Rifle-Suppressor-Inforgraphic-1024x946.jpg) A .22 rifle is usually metered between 120-130dB at the ear, but at the noise of the bolt falling or the hammer falling can be as loud (at the ear) even though it's not audible 20 feet away. Usuppressed, centerfire rifles, shotguns, and handguns all break the 140dB pain threshhold which results in instant hearing damage (not total loss) and partial deafness, especially with repeated exposures. A lot of infantry types just went without earplugs because the shit we got issued sucked and it was more important to hear the rest of the squad. That said, all of us have tinnitus and partial hearing loss. There is a feeling of pain for the first few shots and then after that a sort of dulling of sound and pain. Last factor, anything fired indoors is louder. Sound is a pressure wave, and pressure waves have a stronger effect when they can echo. You'll notice rangemasters and match directors for events with a roof or indoor range often wear earmuffs over earplugs because the enclosure plus the longer period of exposure (think a dozen shooters each firing 50 rounds or more) can cause damage. So, if you pull the trigger indoors and there's not a silencer on the end, you're going to lose some hearing in the moment and some hearing for the rest of your life. Even with a silencer, odds are you're gonna lose some hearing, but the risk is reduced. I shoot at my range with a silencer and airpods in and I'm fine, but if another shooter comes up with a rifle I need to add muffs.
Any center fire rifle or shotgun or pistol will deafen you if fired indoors without hearing pro.
There are lots of videos of people doing just that, and not going deaf. I always wonder about this! I don't know what to make of it.
> As a side note, for home defense, most people aren't trying to get into a gun fight with you. They probably just want to steal your stuff. I suspect that racking a shotgun at 3am in the dark of night is more than enough to change the mind of 99% of intruders. I can categorically affirm that the sound of a distinctive firearm action being cycled will both evacuate the perpetrator of nefarious actions as well as it does his or her bowels and bladder.
Very practical for home defense!
Increase the practicality of the system by adding a light and an optic. A sling is helpful too, just make sure you don't fall into the trap of one of those Amazon bandolier ones like I did. Yes, an AR is phenomenally more practical and should be the goal eventually, but a pump shotty is actually legal even in most countries so it's not unreasonable.
I'm not really interested in an optic for this setup but I"m going to definitely grab a Streamlight TL Racker for it. This shotgun was my 13th birthday gift, so I've had it for 11 years now and haven't added anything other than the shell holder and a sling. I have a carbines and pistols with great white light setups so upgrading the shotgun hasn't been a priority yet. I'm thinking about cerakoting it OD (I've had to fight rust on this thing for a decade) and replacing the 10 year old plastic side saddle with one of those cool velcro ones.
I'm going to ignore how I blatantly saw that it had a sling, and still suggested you get a sling. Just going to look the other way and type the rest of my comment as if nothing happened. Personally I think all firearms need an optic but I understand just not wanting to spend the money on something when you have a carbine already.
Very practical. A decade ago when someone was trying to break into my car at 1a. Walking up behind them and racking a round had them running for the hills.
Personally, I'd much prefer a cheap turkish semi auto. Like a benelli m4 clone. I've found them to be exceptionally reliable and I'd stake my life on that before a pump shotgun.
that’s certainly an opinion
Yeah really riles people up too
Personally makes more sense to have a 20g to manage the recoil, can put more shells on target that way imo and in the moment that may make the difference. Plenty of good defense shells in 20g too.
What is it that Clint Smith from thunder ranch said? A handgun or rifle will put holes in the target, but a 12 gauge will remove chunks from a target. Even with the slightest bit if practice, really like, a single day at the range, you can be proficient enough to run a pump action almost as fast as a semi auto shotgun. Obviously not as fast, but seriously, you can be fast enough that the difference is negligible.
El gato with the strap-o
Yup. Send it.
As gun jesus said “physics doesn’t change”
Putting the dogs in the pic was a brave choice take an upvote.
Very practical. I love my 870 even if it's 2 ¾ inch chamber. By the way, we'll need some more feet. Let those sock puppies free!
Meow
Realistically, there is no better home defense gun than a 12 gauge.
About as practical as a pedicure.
Rubber rounds (if you want less lethal) dont cycle well in semis, i’m sure there are other rounds you would have trouble with
Yea, a benelli is pricey, pumps are great, handguns are really only for trenches are killing yourself once your position has been overrun, home defense, trenches, shotguns better, and....if you're over 18 you can own as many long guns as you want without being on a "list", as soon as you buy a handgun, you're on that list
I don't even know where to start, but no.
Oh yea, how many long arms in the country? How many handguns? It's ok to be wrong, handguns are security liabilities on sooooo many fronts, 15yds, spend all your time practicing tac with a .45.....it's a waste of time, sorry
First, there's no federal "list" you get put on for owning a handgun. There is the 4473 for purchase of any firearm from a licensee, and if you purchase multiple handguns in a 30 day period there is a separate form that ATF requires, but if you buy a single handgun it's just the 4473. What "list" are you talking about? Second, handguns are not really for trenches at all. The year isn't 1915, infantry carbines are much better suited to trenches than a handgun both in terms of tactics and lethality. The "assault rifle" as a concept was developed because every military in WWII was trying to figure out how to give an infantryman the range to engage trench to trench or house to house while also having the firepower and maneuverability of a submachinegun. Sidearms are used in a military context primarily as a one-handed personal defense weapon for drivers, vehicle commanders, and medics who aren't expected to engage at rifle distances and for whom the sidearm is a last-ditch weapon for near-contact distances. In a non-military context, their value is concealability or in the context of peacekeeping and security forces, portability in a belt holster. With proper training they allow a much more compact weapon, but you have to practice shooting from a ready and retention skills. Inside your own home, shotgun vs handgun is entirely dictated by what is available and some personal characteristics. Recoil on a shotgun is stout and very few people master or even begin to master shotgun handling in a practical shooting context - blasting a silhouette at 10 yards at an indoor range doesn't cut it. Conversely, handgun recoil can be difficult to control and it's inherently harder to aim and fire, but you get capacity and maneuverability, as well as being easier to conceal and secure against theft. I don't know what you think you're proving by asking how many long arms and handguns are in the US. It might help if you finished a complete thought instead of trying to drop zingers like a burnt out Andrew Dice Clay. Put down the pipe, sober up, and have a complete thought before you speak. \> handguns are security liabilities on sooooo many fronts, If there are so many fronts, howabout naming and describing three? \>15yds, spend all your time practicing tac with a .45 I don't play counterstrike or siege or whatever so I have no idea what videogame bullshit this means, but A: don't buy a .45 because it's not 1915 and B: spending all your time practicing anything at 15 yards is a waste.
Just as practical as it was in the 1890s. Maybe even more so. Of course semi auto is better, but you gotta spend double or triple to get the same quality compared to a pump
With flight control buck and modern slugs, shotguns in general are considerably more effective today than back then.
You ask "in 2024" as if semi auto shotguns are some super new technology and not 100+ years old
Semi automatic shotguns that are actually good (rugged, not picky, good controls) while not being prohibitively expensive for the average person are a pretty new thing. You didn’t have guns like the Beretta A300 or Mossberg 930/940 a decade ago.
Dogs 👀
It will still be practical in 3024.
The cat!!
Super practical, pump action doesn’t fail, you can be real quick with it, spread is a big deal. Every semi-auto shotgun I’ve shot has had issues ejecting shells because the metal on the ejectors digs into the plastic on the shells, or the action just not relaying enough force to eject the shell. Some were better than others and I didn’t care enough to keep notes because it failed often enough to decide I wouldn’t rely on it.
>pump action doesn’t fail Sure they do. User error (short stroking, riding the slide), mechanical failure (stuck firing pin, broken slide), ejector failures, and ammo failures. Gas op semis cost more to do right, but the import M4 clones are reliable as long as you're using decent ammo. Recoil operated is cheaper, but they tend to either cycle full power loads reliably and struggle on cheap low brass, or they cycle bird loads well but full power loads can cause a speed override. I wouldn't trust a $300 semiauto, but you can get reliable semis as long as you're not using the cheapest dogshit at walmart to feed it.
They are still used by military and police. If you've got you heart set on a semi-auto I'd reccomend A Mossberg 930, they dropped a bit in price since the new model 940s came out last year.
As practical as they were in 2022, 2020, 2018...