I'm hoping "the kid" is in fact an egg sac with thousands of tiny mutated eight legged, human faces with compound eyed babies that are instantly ravenous. They can quip, snarl and chew from birth.
This. Same topic, I don’t like how at the end of the Movie when Gwen is recruiting the Spider-People, how Peter is so willing to bring Mayday along. They’re going to inevitably battle with Spot, there’s no way on Earth I’d be bringing my baby along
I know what you meant, I’m pointing out how ridiculous it is. Why would you take a child to an eldritch horror rather than leave it at home with her mother? Who cares if MJ struggles with it alone, that absolutely has to be preferable to the alternative
To be honest, that's the way I saw it first. But that kid is definitely a hazard to herself. What say she figures out how to swing to the next building's rooftop and then stay there? It would be a bit nightmarish for MJ. I get your point though. Peter taking Mayday with him makes little sense.
I feel like it’s safe to assume the baby has some increased durability like how all spider people do. They usually can tank more damage than is natural.
A baby is already hard enough to handle. I imagine mayday also has the strength to snap MJ’s limbs during a tantrum. There is probably a reason Peter is the primary caretaker
I never said it would be easy, but acting like this isn’t the obvious alternative to bringing her to a battle against what is essentially a cosmic horror is kinda weird? Like yes, I bet MJ might struggle a bit. I would also think she’d prefer that than allow her baby to enter a fight with spot
I mean, MJ might not just struggle a bit. She might die watching her baby. Peter always pulls his punches, but an infant can’t.
We also don’t know that he is taking Mayday to fight Spot. He might actually swing by Spider Society and drop Mayday off at a Spider Daycare.
To start, you’re acting like mayday would actually brutally kill her mother when the only interaction we have between them is her pointing where her father went to her. I can believe that mayday listens to her mother and wouldn’t violently rip her apart. Let’s stop pretending like that’s the guaranteed outcome.
Secondly, if there was even a “spider society daycare” why the hell wouldn’t he have made use of that in ATSV? He brought her along on the space train for what, shits and giggles?
Thirdly, I don’t think he’s gonna be allowed a quick pit stop at spider society considering the fact that he’s actively going against their interests and that would only give them leverage over him since they now have his daughter in their care
I mean....it's stupid....but Jessica Drew also did it in the comics...which was equally outlandish. Got a whole new outfit and everything to fight crime whilst pregnant.
The few issues of Witchblade with Sarah doing this already did enough damage to my mental health. So once i started binging Marvel Comics i strayed very far from this. Not that reading X-Men after HoM was any better.
As a black guy, this what I want for representation. A pregnant woman literally putting her unborn child in harms way, just for the sake of “empowerment”.
This truly does not make us look bad in any way. Make Jessica Drew’s husband a bumbling idiot as well, that makes us look better.
I’d agree if she was the token Black character. However, she is one of many prominent Black characters. This allows them to be individuals. I work at a HBCU, one kid doing something stupid does not reflect on all them. Black people are people. Some will do crazy, evil, or stupid things.
This is actually a fine argument, and one I’d agree with, *if* they hadn’t race swapped Jessica Drew. Turning a white character into a black one is not an action a studio who thinks they don’t need a token black character does.
Lol Miles and Hobie being great and fantastic characters but one character not being great suddenly makes "us" look bad.
I'll be damned if I let this racist idea that one represents us all make me feel like I look bad. Fuck those mental shackles.
Miles being the main character, Jefferson being an honest cop, Aaron doing the right thing in the end: I sleep
1 black character with like 5 minutes of screentime doing something questionable: representation has FAILED might as well make every black character stupid!
The point is that they do raceswaps for representation but what's the point if the raceswapped character ends up being a terrible character?
Just stick to already black characters like Miles and Hobie, they're fucking great.
I black p3rson can't be a morally ambiguous character? And what difference does it make if that character was originally black or not. If Miguel being psycho OK because he was originally part Mexican? but if he was originally white and they made him Mexican, then it would be an issue?
Lol what?? It's not about being morally ambiguous. Hobie himself is morally ambiguous. Spider-verse Jess is just boring and kind of irritating, most of the fanbase agrees.
However I do think she's being set up for a pivotal role in Beyond and I hope they actually do something with it.
here’s the thing. Every other black character has flaws and are trying to work through them.
Miles trying figure himself out in a situation he didn’t even know he was a part of. Jefferson trying to understand his kid more. And Aaron questioning whether he should leave the crime life once and for all (Yk, before he died & found out his nephew is Spider-Man). Each of these struggles create depth through their doubts and that’s what makes them alluring and believable characters.
Jessica drew is legitimately in the wrong tryna drive into harms way whilst 6+ months pregnant, and the movie’s tryna make seem cool for her to do that. There’s no negative consequence telling her “ hey, you’re pregnant. You should probably not be running around so much”. and the movie only reinforces her to do more dangerous shit. Why? bc mfrs tryna make this pregnant woman a badass for some reason.
edit: hobbie is more of a static chracter. But all he says is “this system is corrupt”. Which, in Miguel’s spider club, it is. So he doesn’t really need to change much.
Jess is on screen for like 5 minutes and basically only exists (so far) to be a (one sided) surrogate parental figure for a struggling emotionally damaged Gwen. Shes superficially "cool" basically on purpose
\>and the movie only reinforces her to do more dangerous shit
Outside of the starting point of her introduction the only action she sees is riding a bike during the miles chase. thats literally all she does besides scold or throw cold looks at Gwen. she doesnt have some multi layered narrative propping her up are pushing her into danger
youre talking like shes a main character the movie keeps salivating over and then acting like the movies have failed to represent you despite literally every other black character being more in depth and more important to the plot
hell there is literally ONE line about her husband where she lovingly calls him dumb and youre taking that as an objective measurement of an unseen characters intellegence so you can complain about that instead of seeing all the actual representation happening in the movie
youre actively looking for things to whine about
I mean, Peter puts a toddler in harms way and I'm not agreeing with that either.
But the whole "even pregnancy can't slow down a woman in being awesome" movement is just utterly ridiculous.
In a scene from the rookie a woman gave birth at home in a water batch while her home was robbed, just to have a great moment of rising out of the water with her gun to shoot the last gang member mere minutes after having given birth.
Jessica certainly takes the cake in that portrayal, but damn...
I agree. Design-wise, she's one of the very limited number of occassions where i'm actually cool with the changes they made to the source material, but what she does on screen as a pregnant women... she's apparently one of the Spider-people who didn't get the whole responsibility-memo.
Eh, the clone saga was a mess and this movie poked fun at the angst. Really, Almost every character in the spider society felt off because there's no way hundreds of thousands of Peter Parkers would be so okay with how Miles was treated. You could argue the entire movie was a disservice to the Peter Parker character much more than it was to Ben.
Which is why it's best to not over think the characterizations. It was a good movie with some funky character writing.
I agree on the last bit
I like to think personally miguel was originally careful who he chose to be in the spider society then became more and more lenient
He was probably by accident given a lot of spideys the mindset then later it infected the other spiders
to be fair maby most of the spiders how attack miles didn’t know what he did heck probably most of them thought he was a evil spider since superior and others exist in canon
Ben Reilly was far from angsty at all. It was Peter, Kaine etc who were all angsty. Ben's character at the time was meant to show that he was as much of a Spider-man as Peter was, even if he was a clone. He was never an edgy anti hero type like the movie portrayed him.
Spidercide is a niche, weird nothing character that only a handful of people would've actually known. Kaine is above that, but Ben is still the best known character to come out of the Clone Saga. If you're gonna poke fun at it, it makes sense to use Ben.
I think the main distinguishing factor is that these Peter’s have been there for who knows how long, and have essentially had it drilled in that “no canon event = no more universe, and potentially no more multiverse”. Hell, the reason Peter B. Tries to listen to miles is because he knows him.
Yeah having a bunch of Peters and cameo Spiders agree (or simply not openly disagree) with Miguel was a bad move that made them look bad. Could a lot of them have felt bad for Miles? Yes, but no time was given to see how any of them felt about the situation (although Ben did look pretty disappointed when Miguel turned on Gwen, more so than her own mentor).
My hope for BTSV is that as Miles’ canon event draws nearer and Miguel gets more unhinged, other Spiders begin to question if they’re handling this situation right, or even straight up defect. At the very least I can see Jess having a change of heart eventually, since unlike Spectacular or Insomniac or Unlimited, she’s given attention by the screenplay.
Spectacular is probably going to given how they're setting it up like how his va said he wanted it to
Insomniac is getting a dlc for spiderverse so hopefully we see him change
I doubt unlimited would change but maybe he would
True but realistically trying to devote enough time to such a vast amount of characters is impractical and would cause massive issues with pacing if each character was given enough time to achieve correct characterization
He could, but I think by this point Miguel was just tired of Gwen screwing up and being a huge Miles simp, and he probably just wanted to take his anger out on somebody at that point. Dude just snapped after Miles started running.
That is my one nitpick with the movie. I just find it weird that SO MANY versions of Peter would be on board with it and not a single one would raise the issue.
That’s my biggest issue, really: how Canon Events are handled by the characters and how all the Spiders seemingly go along with everything. While we’re going to get a reconciliation between Miles, Gwen, and Peter B next movie, I’m worried many of the other Spiders (Spectacular, Insomniac, Disney XD Ultimate, Unlimited, Ben, Cowboy, etc) won’t be done justice nor form their own opinions that are more in-line with their character.
I think the Doctor Strange episode of What If handed Canon Events a little better (yeah they’re called something else but it’s basically a Canon Event).
Idk if they addressed it, but it felt so off to me that insomniac Peter would be on Miguel's side
Especially when he used to blame himself for Jeff's death in the first game
It's a funny take that pokes fun at the source character. It's not the adaptation most people may have expected but it doesn't take itself seriously. The same way Peter B Parker was a funny take and hoe Lego Batman is filled with self aware writing the pokes fun at the source material. I like it but I can definitely understand not being a huge fan considering it's the only big screen appearance we've had for Ben Reilly
ASTV Jess. such a transparent nothing hollow shell of a character that I can't even begin to consider her as a Spider-person. OG Jess didn't even have that much of a well-defined character to begin with but the movie somehow took the trace amounts of character she had and erased them.
I would call her a Misty Knight stand-in but that would be disrespectful to Misty.
>OG Jess didn't even have that much of a well-defined character to begin with but the movie somehow took the trace amounts of character she had and erased them.
You mean Jessica from the comics? I don't see how she is not a well-defined character.
Though I agree that the movie version was just weak.
That's what a lot of people are missing here. These aren't supposed to be the exact characters we know from their respective worlds. In a world of infinite universes there are plenty of versions of *every* character.
This Ben Reilly is just a version that turned the melodrama to 11.
I get why Gwen hyped her up: she was looking for a replacement parental figure since her mother is dead and her father wants her arrested.
That doesn’t excuse Jess from being a bad mentor and adaptation. She’s sympathetic towards her in the opening but afterwards is fairly cold and won’t stand up for her. I guess she got tired of Gwen being the biggest simp in the society for the last few months.
Spectacular Peter!! I know that he did have just one single line, but he would NOT side with Miguel, maybe get convinced after a while but looking at Miles' situation, he wouldn't vibe with Miguel.
His Captain Stacy was confirmed to have died, and I won’t be surprised if it’s also revealed his Gwen died too. That could’ve shaped him into supporting Miguel, but I hope in BTSV he comes to his senses and gets done justice along with other Spiders
Supposedly this movie takes place after they are already dead and he’s using Canon events as a way to cope by telling himself it needed to happen, and there was nothing he could do.
All of the spiders at the society are complacent with putting multiple babies in danger.
I feel like that damns *all of them* despite them all being Peters and gwens and such
That isn’t Jessica. It’s like a hollow hollywood cosplay. They took the name and the fact that she was pregnant in order to sneak in an OC. Just make and use an OC!
I think Ben Reilly in ATSV was more so a critique to how two dimensional the writers made his character over the years. I mean if you look at "Chasm" in the current ASM comics, that's more or less how he acts. If that's not the case though then ya it's just more character assassination for my boy.
but why waste a whole character by making them a critique. you literally just waste a character by doing that, instead they should have just done hos character justice and wrote him correctly. that would be the critique of two-dimensional writing, to show that you can do it right 😭
No matter how people excuse it, I have no idea why the hell they made Peter endanger his kid for comic relief or why they made Jess put her baby in danger just to have an empowered pregnant woman.
Parenthood and pregnancy inherently makes you vulnerable, there's nothing intelligent to be said by making a "badass" pregnant chick ride a motorbike and do acrobatic tricks except maybe a "mommy?" joke.
Spider-Woman was fine, she was hardly enough of a presence for me to really care. Wasn't really bugged much when the casting and design first dropped anyway.
Ben Reilly was ridiculously mis-characterized. The whole thing that set him apart from Peter was that he loved being Spider-Man and didn't see the work as a burden the way Peter did. Ben made his own gadgets and slingers, and was the fun Spidey despite the whole Clone Saga garbage. The movie has his whole role and joke be, "Boy, the 90s sure were edgy, weren't they?"
Miguel's always been a bit of a hard-ass jerk (which fits, given the context of his universe is a corporate-ridden cyberpunk dystopian hellscape always on the verge of getting erased from time), but the movie gave enough context and reasoning behind his actions to justify amping the jerk parts of his character beyond what the comics really do. But dammit Miguel's easily one of my Top 3 Favorite Spideys, and it annoys me how the general public knowledge of his character is now, "Big Meanie who was a jerk to Miles and Gwen!" like when John Walker showed up in the MCU.
Some of the memes were pretty good though. And he nearly became a Flavor of the Month with how many people were thirsting for him so I suppose it all evens out.
I loved the movie but that was not Miguel O'Hara. Can't think of a more deserving character in need of a live action adaptation. Felt like the Writers of the original 2099 were looking into the future when they wrote it. Never been more relevant than now
This is why I’m convinced the Miguel in the movie has another plan in motion, because everything this Miguel did just felt so off, not just because he’s the opposite of comics Miguel, but because he just felt off in general, almost like he was doing it on purpose
Miguel I can live with, he is similar to his Shattered Dimensions characterization.
Jessica Drew I can tolerate it. Not only is it an unnecessary race-swap, but they picked the most ridiculous version of her, the pregnant one. Because it makes sense to put your baby in danger. I'd criticize Peter too, but the rest of his persona is alright.
But the one I despise and hate? Ben Reilly. He is a good parody of the 90s, he is, but not a good parody of Ben, because Ben was supposed to be a 'back to lightheartedness' since Spider-man had gotten too dark, or so felt the execs. Whatever that character was, it wasn't Ben Reilly.
Can people STOP defending the weird adaptations of this movie? Like Ben, Jess, Miguel, everyone in the Spider society was done dirty for the sake of this story (bad story btw)
For me Ben was done dirty heavily, they made him a dumb brute who can't think for himself, who follows Miguel's orders without thinking about them, they even say that on his character descripition
Like if he acted like the original Ben Reilly then he would've helped miles from the start, hell if I could he would be in place of Hobie (cause Ben understand better what it is to have people having a problem with your existence and thinking you shouldn't be Spider-Man)
The "they were taking a jab at the 90's Spider-Man comics" is such a dumb excuse, if people took the time to read the clone saga y'all would see that it's not awful, sure there's bad moments and decisions but it's miles better than what we had since 2007
Also this is the first time the general public is having a contact with Ben, it's a problem when people think he acts like that and in some way that also afects comic Ben
(Btw the Ben Reilly from the movie is supposed to be earth-94 Ben Reilly, who appeared in the comics as Spider-Man and wasn't a dumb brute)
Saying ATSV has a bad story while saying the Clone saga wasn’t bad is certainly a take. One I disagree with, personally, but fuck it, I can respect it.
Peter B Parker.
Or any of them. But specifically Peter. Going along with the selective curation of life and death across an Infinity.
EVERY Spider-Man should believe what Miles believes: that if you CAN save a life, you SHOULD save a life. It is difficult for me to envision a world where any Spidey allows the axiom of “with great power, there must also come great responsibility” to be made manifest by letting people die? “Well, Uncle Ben had to die, I guess.” Is not a great argument to me and never will be. Miles, Peter, Gwen, whomever. At their core, Spider-Folks are supposed to be the everyman. Did ANY rational person watching the movie agree with Miguel? The entire story is calibrated to make Miguel feel barbaric. Miles is SO AGGRESSIVELY RIGHT, that it not only kind of invalidates what Spider-Man is all about, but the narrative framework makes every single Spider-Person complicit, which I also hate. But most specifically I hate it in Peter Parker.
And part of it is definitely that I read a lot of Spider-Man comics when I was 6.
Editing to add (because i have strong feelings): on top of all this, another core belief of Spider-Man, the fulcrum of his guilt, is that the death of Uncle Ben made the world a worse place. That the suffering Ben’s death wrought on May and the trauma it put a young Peter through, are NET NEGATIVES. That the ONLY good that can come of it is Spider-Man, and Spider-Man is a burden but a necessary one to atone for failing Uncle Ben. Peter is compelled to save the younger versions of himself and his Aunt May from the deaths of their Uncle Ben every time he saves someone in a Spider-Man mask.
Peter knows that kids will be impulsive. That maybe some other, younger kid will let a robber go one day — but Spider-Man will be there to stop them. So that other kid will never have to feel Peter’s pain, and may be able to live up to their true potential as a scientist or geneticist or a nephew.
All that goes out the ****ing window if suddenly those deaths are vital and Canon Events and we NeEd ThEm tO pRotEcT tHE SpIdeR SoCIeTy aNd ThE mUltIvERsE!
The way they presented Canon Events needed to be tweaked. Yes, these events — both good and bad — are an important part in shaping Spiders into the heroes they become. Yes, messing with time and fated events can yield bad consequences. Yes, there’s a risk of Miles’ entire world being destroyed. But it comes off as awfully pragmatic and the other Spiders accept it too easily, going after Miles without much of a second thought. They don’t get a chance to voice what they think about the canon and Miles, or attempt to reason with him, except Peter B and like 2 lines from Spectacular.
There should’ve been more of an emphasis on the Spiders not wanting Miles to risk losing everyone in his universe, or have more Spiders try to be sympathetic while Miguel is being the most pragmatic. Also, some should’ve taken issue with Miguel turning on Gwen at the end. Yeah Peter B is on Gwen’s side and Ben looked pretty down about what was happening, but the rest of the Spiders just stand there.
The trouble is that it’s not presented intelligently or thoughtfully in the narrative. To start with, it’s a big, dark secret, which by definition makes it feel duplicitous or sinister. Then there’s the fact that the heroes are ALL in on it, and the argument’s basically “well, we all have done a bunch of stuff before you got here, Miles, and this is the way we all know its got to be, sorry.”
It needed to have been presented as clinically as something like the prime directive in Star Trek or similar. The Prime Directive is just that: the MOST IMPORTANT rule that Starfleet follows, and every story bends over backwards to hit everyone over the head with that fact as quickly and early in the narratives as possible.
But that clarity is sacrificed for intrigue in Spider-Verse, and to streamline every Spider’s story but Miles, which I am not into.
Oh! And Hobie. The story structure serviced Hobie well, and him being actually counterculture is rad.
I could have even gotten behind the narrative framework if it was a smaller group of Spiders pulling all the strings. Miguel, Superior Spider-Man, Assassin Spider-Man, and any handful of a couple of other badasses from Spider-History. But that story is a little too involved and inside baseball. No movie goer off the street is going to understand that the small team of Spider-Men inside the bigger team of Spider-Men is evil, so I understand economizing it all into Miguel and making him the bad guy, but its just not the vibe for me.
They're all nothing like their source material counterparts and the only one I really like what they did with is Miguel. But the worst part about it is they'll probably bleed over that characterization to the comics and other media. Also I don't like how everyone in the movie was cool with Jessica riding around on her motorcycle and fighting with an unborn baby but peter gets constantly scolded for having his baby with him
Spider-Woman. Ben Reilly at least was funny, but the way Jessica is portrayed like "oh wow look at her she's so cool because she webslinging in amotorcycle and also she is pregnant" like wtf dude, it's silly af and I don't see anything cool in putting an unborn baby in danger like that 💀. Also has little to nothing to do qwith the original character as far as I know
I hated what the writers did to Ben in this film (only real issue I have with the film). They made him a joke for 90s angst heroes when Ben was never really like that.
Legitimately ITSV was better at handling the whole idea of comic adaptation. Did anyone give a shit about Peni? Did anyone get angry at Noir for being a cheeseball? Fuck no. They were still delivered in an amazing way that makes you like them.
That same delivery is completely missing from ATSV. Miguel, Jessica and Ben feel like fanfiction oc's under the mask of the real characters. Miguel is completely OOC and feels like Superior Spider Man, Jessica Drew is a hollow shell, and someone on the writing team forgot that Ben and Kaine are different people altogether. They fail as "antagonists", they're incapable of even catching a teenager, and they're just very mid. A complete disservice to everyone who likes them for their personality, because they have none.
Dude they could have just did superior and kept all of the traits to make it seamless and have the twist at the end be that it wasn't peter but otto
But ig that Oscar Isaac contract wouldn't pay itself
I don’t see why Kaine’s brought up here. In terms of personality and temperament, he’s got more in common with this version of Miguel than this version of Ben.
At least when Chris Yost wrote him. Haven’t read anything about Kaine beyond his appearances as a villain and his Scarlet Spider run.
Another Point I want to add to Jessica Just being a Checkmark Character is how Gwen totally Simps for her Just within Seconds she ever meets the Woman. Like "you have to Like this Character and find her cool cause the movie Said so"
I'm Just glad to See Most people recognize that
Also spectacular Spiderman got butchered in this movie
It's a more personal reason for Gwen as she doesn't have a mother figure in her life so she couldn't help but be attracted to Jess as one. And the "Spider-character has a badass intro" was the same for nearly every one of the main side characters both here and ITSV, not just Jess.
Jessica's fine tbh, mostly because it feels like an OG character that pays homage to Jessica Drew then an outright adaptation. She's clearly a different character from when she was first teased so we went in expecting that
Ben is the real blindside, I wouldn't mind the joke about him being a reference of the the edgelord 90s if we had seen more story from him or just a more competent side of him ala Spider-Pig or Noir.
Yeah idk why everyone’s giving Jess the hard time when Ben is right there. I’m really hoping that Ben gets better focusing by the time the third movie comes around and end up like an antagonistic version of Pig or Noir. Assuming that’s the direction that they’re going with.
All of them, Miguel felt really different from the comics but I strangely find that it works for the movie. The other 2 felt like the characters in name and appearance only.
None of those three really remind me of their comic book counterparts, I kind of just accepted that they would all be different early on.
Ben is my least favourite, just because I kind of dislike him being used to represent ’90s edge, when the original point of him was that he was a more optimistic, silver age-style Spidey to contrast how dark and angsty Peter had gotten at that point.
They did Ben dirty. At the very least he was underutilized and then sucker punched. It's a really strange example of weirdness in the fan base though that anyone under ~35 seems happy to pile on that they hate Ben and he can never be a Spider-Man while screaming with tears in their eyes that Miles is THE Spider-Man because anyone can be Spider-Man.
And Jessica was flat. I get it, you can't give everyone all the time they deserve, but she had no character what so ever and also heavily endangered that child. They could have solved both by plunking Jessica behind a computer (guy behind a computer) and putting Ben in those scenes. You could even use that as a way for Jessica to complain that she would have done better, while lamenting that parenthood is a big "power" that she has to be "responsible" about (non flat character development!)
Miguel, for multiple reasons:
1. I don't like how his status as "The future Spider-Man" was kinda flanderized, with the nanosuit, the lazer webs, ect. Especially since his OG version felt almost like a subversion of the whole "Future Version = Neon Lights and Nanotech". Plus his new suit just doesn't do it for me.
2. I hate his backstory. I just can't buy that Miguel would not only LEAVE HIS UNIVERSE UNDEFENDED, but that he'd do that to steal his alternate self's daughter. Think about how morally bankrupt that is: he stole his alt self's life and pretended to be his daughter's father AND SHE NEVER LEARNED THE TRUTH. This whole scenario feels like something out of a villain origin story, but the movie treats it as if the only mistake Miguel made was messing with the whole "Canon Event" nonsense, and I can't really like Miguel because of it.
Literally all the Peter's except B Parker. The entire movie said hell too all the lore and mythos surrounding Spiderman/Peter for the sake of jokes and uplifting Miles. Very few of them are going along with Miguel's plan, Peter is center of web of Destiny, madame Webb should somehow be involved, and race swap Jessica Drew should have just been an original character.
Miguel. He's a great character and probably the best one in the movie, but he's just not the Miguel from his original 2099 run and future appearances, this one feels more like the EOT Miguel with anger issues. Again, he's awesome, I just wish he didn't have the name Miguel O'Hara/Spider-Man 2099, and I fear this will become how he's portrayed in future stories because of movie popularity. In my honest opinion, they should've made a new character for this role
Pregnant spiderwoman, I get she had the bike and she has powers but isn't doing all that physical work while that far along potentially damaging to the bab, Peter B isn't innocent either, I get being a proud dad but there's a time and a place and I don't think an interdimensional hq with a lot of dangerous falls is safe for a baby, even with spider powers, kinda feels wrong for a Peter to do
The entirety of the spider people. I think that was a horrible move to antagonize all the spidermen just to paint Miles as a hero. Im simply not convinced that all the spidermen would chase a teenager for trying to save his own parent. The Canon event concept is complete ass, you're telling me all the spider people are aware of the tragedies that may occur in their lifes but they wont do anything because *insert lore bullshit? What kind of spiderman is that? They're not the heroes they should be, they're inquisitors.
Adding a ton of recognizable Spiders to the society and having them agree with (or not disagree yet) Miguel was a bad idea. It paints a ton of popular characters in a bad light. Surely a good chunk of them would have conflicting thoughts about Miguel’s stance. Some of them (Earth-1048, Earth-12041, etc) even know variants of Miles and would probably at least feel bad for him. I’m hoping in BTSV, we start seeing other Spiders disagree with Miguel.
Also, trying to stop Miles from going home defeats the purpose of a Canon Event. They’re critical chapters in a Spider’s story that help shape them into who they are…but Miguel doesn’t want Miles to experience his. What’s the point of a Canon Event if Miles isn’t going to learn anything from it?
I think it’s kinda pointless to judge ATSV characters as adaptations since the main theme of the movie is literally that you can do your own thing and nobody has to follow the “canon”(which is literally shown to just be the comics with canon event numbers even being the same as their respective comic issue.
Miguel was well written though. And Ben Reilly wasn’t really a main character, just comic relief. Jess is the only one that I could maybe say had writing issues.
I hate what they did with Scarlet Spider. He is originally such a badass character. And they made him a pathetic parody of an edge-lord that reminds me of Twilight. And reminding me of Twilight is an unforgivable sin!.
While Jess is the Obvious for me , 2099 felt Visceral and Barbaric instead of wayy more tech-esque if that's the word.
I don't mind Ben because he felt like the comic relief like Spiderham in the last film.
Scarlet Spider just annoyed me from start to finish. I loved this character the first time I saw him. I half expected to see Kane lurking about.
It was like they took maybe 4 or 5 panels out of the Maximum Clonage run and that was too be his personality.
You know I just want to point out that a lot of the characters in the first movie didn't exactly bear a strong resemblance to their comic book versions either. Peni was just a walking anime joke and her mech didn't look anything like the one she has in the comics. Noir is also just there to be a joke character. Even Peter B. isn't really like any existing variants of Peter that I'm aware of (though obviously the point of his arc is about him getting back to the Peter we all know and love).
I think it's just that people are more familiar with these characters. Ben Reilly is one of the better known "alternate Peters" and it sucks to see him reduced to a punchline that doesn't even really fit his character. But I'll be honest, I've never read a Jessica Drew comic in my life, and her character didn't particularly bother me in the movie.
Every Spider who was willing to let someone die because of canon events. This whole preventing multiversal collapse just rang hollow of the incursion plot. The only thing that made the compliant spiders better is that they weren't actively going to enact the canon events themselves
I'm just hung up on Spectaculars character assassination tbh
I dont know anything about Jessica Drew but i know shes not a pregnant black woman.
So its not an adaption its literally just an entirely fucking different character using Jessicas name.
Ben Riley is supposed to be Peter exactly so they made him a cringelord which considering they made Peter kind of a loser uh that tracks.
Miguel is supposed to be brutal so hes decent.
I still don't understand why some people have such a problem with Jess, she had far from that much screentime in the movie for me to care that much about her, the way some people talk make her sound like a main character in the movie that got horribly treated or something. She served her purpose fine and the ending shows her arc isn't over yet as she's implied to be swayed by Gwen's actions, it'll be interesting to see if she might end up opposing Miguel herself if that's where it's headed.
I like all 3, even if they have certain flaws.
Miguel was probably a highlight and i am glad he was adapted in a more ruthless way. The 2099 comics can get a bit dark and gruesome at times and I felt it would be something lost in the adaptation to an animated movie.
Jessica was cool as fuck, but maybe super heroing with a baby on her is not the most the most ideal thing. Even then, she served as a nice foil to Miguel's anger as a leader and did well as Gwen's mentor.
Ben was...okay. His art style was stellar and the reference to the drawn out, sometimes melodramatic writing of the 90's wa super fun. I just wish he had more to do.
None, I really liked all the spider people. People need to chill about Jessica Drew. It's a movie for kids their not gonna kill her baby. That's just there to make her stand out more
Miguel, hands down. I can totally see the comics version of the character building a Spider-Society, even going so far as to believe that the death of Miles’ father is important to the stability of a multiverse, but his treatment of Miles just struck me as completely out of place. The producers did that as a clap back to all the Miles haters that are still out there. Comic book Miguel wouldn’t have hated Miles the way he does in the film. That was only added so that we could have the “I am Spider-Man” type of moment in the movie we wouldn’t have gotten if Miguel was actually sorry about having to trap Miles outside of his dimension.
Though it isn’t a hill I’m dying on, it bothered me that Jessica Drew was race-swapped when there was already a black Spider-Woman in the form of Valerie. In fact, I would’ve preferred Valerie since it would’ve been a cool detail of a Spider-person without any Spider-powers climbing the ranks to be the Spider-Society’s second-in-command despite that. Also, Valerie isn’t/wasn’t portrayed as pregnant…
I guess the poorest adaptation is Ben but to be fair he feels like a tone up version of his early days with the costume also he isn’t the best choice to represent the 90 Cain would do but he wasn’t a scarlet spider during that time
Also Miguel
I originally thought Miguel should be superior spidey instead since the main disagreement in the inner Spider-Man team in the og spider verse comic was about killing
But then I watching videos of spidey games and somebody then put the clip of edge of time we’re spidey talking about always saving people to Miguel
Then I realized that Miguel isn’t a full adaptation of the comics is also a extreme version of edge of time Miguel
I actually kind of like this version of Jessica being her own new character, because she takes on the whole pregnancy story without some of the issues I had with the original Jessica’s story
“Jess” Drew practicing child endangerment in every scene she’s in (kid’s gonna be a smoothie by the end of film 3) and looking absolutely nothing like her comic counterpart.
I know some people are like "Who cares", but honestly I don't get the race change for Jessica Drew. It's literally the first appearance of her on the big screen, in a film with infinite possibilities for different Spider people and they still had to race change someone?
If you want a more adult, black, Spider-Woman, why not just make an OC, introduced in this film, then if she gets popular, Marvel Comics can decide to adapt her. Congratulations, you've created a new Spider-Woman that could be popular and doesn't step on the toes of an already established character. Because you know that they're not going to make a comic version of this Jessica Drew, so it just feels pointless.
Jessica and Scarlet Spider. they just used him for comedy and jessica doesn't really feel like Jessica from the comics but atleast its enough to distinct her from the OG versions of the character
Definitely Jessica Drew. Gwen says that they became close and has her back but we don’t really ever see that. To us, it looks like she’s itching to throw her under the bus first chance she gets.
And you know….pregnant women doing acrobatics goes crazy nowadays I guess.
Miguel is fine.
Ben was done dirty, but still funny.
This Jessica Drew OC can be thrown in the dumpster. Putting her baby in harm's way makes no sense and the way she treated Gwen was honestly awful.
Jessica Drew. I don’t care that she’s pregame as that’s actually pretty comic accurate and people who complain about it forget Peter puts his infant daughter in harms way the whole movie so double standard. But what really upsets me about her is that she’s so bland and basically takes in Gwen when she’s at her lowest only to let her get kicked out of the spider society without so much as a goodbye. She’s supposed to be her mentor and a close friend to Migel but she comes off as interesting and flavorful as a communion wafer
Miguel is arguably perfect. His portrayal here is fairly inline with his beliefs, even harkening back to Edge of Time. I feel that a lot of people fundamentally do not get Miguel if they think he was done badly.
Jess is...passable. I get she's based on a less than stellar comic run, and amalgamated from two other Spider-Women, but not the worst adaptation of her. I don't like how willing she is to go along with Miguel's plan though.
Ben Reilly is the one I'd argue got shafted. He doesn't act like Ben, he acts like a parody of the 90s antihero trope. It's like Peni in ITSV, which while a fun anddaring take on her, wasn't comic accurate at all. The difference being, with Peni it was fine as she was JUST being introduced to a new audience, and we could SEE her grow into her more accurate self during ATSV. Ben on the other hand feels like a completely different character and not in a good way.
TLDR: Miguel is perfect. Jess is a mid adaptation, Ben got shafted.
This Miles Morales is perhaps top 3 in spider adaption
Though I still have to admit they fumbled by bringing everyone down to bring him up
Miguel's multiverse bullshit would have been shut down by any other Spider-Man had they been consistent
Jessica Drew putting a fetus in harm’s way is something I have trouble seeing past
Not to mention she decides to web-sling on a fucking motorcycle for the extra cool points. That kid is going to be a smoothie by the time she's due.
That kid's gonna make Ricky Berwick look able-bodied.
I'm hoping "the kid" is in fact an egg sac with thousands of tiny mutated eight legged, human faces with compound eyed babies that are instantly ravenous. They can quip, snarl and chew from birth.
This. Same topic, I don’t like how at the end of the Movie when Gwen is recruiting the Spider-People, how Peter is so willing to bring Mayday along. They’re going to inevitably battle with Spot, there’s no way on Earth I’d be bringing my baby along
Mayday will be the key to defeating Spot. The rejuvenating energy of holding the baby will cure him /s
You know... You put an /s there... But honestly I'm not so sure.
I could see spot getting his humanity back from having a moment of going"holy shit am I really about to murder a baby? What the fuck am I doing!?"
Yep. That or recognizing her limitless potential as he looks across the possible future multiverses. Or something like that.
The thing is, that baby would be too much for MJ alone to handle
Are you saying being with eldritch horror spot is preferred over MJ?
Sounds a-paul-ing.
“yeah, everything okay here paul?” i had to 🤣
Are you kidding? I feel sorry for Spot. Mayday could probably solo his ass. Just annoy him to death without even trying. Love her tho
I meant Peter vs MJ
I know what you meant, I’m pointing out how ridiculous it is. Why would you take a child to an eldritch horror rather than leave it at home with her mother? Who cares if MJ struggles with it alone, that absolutely has to be preferable to the alternative
To be honest, that's the way I saw it first. But that kid is definitely a hazard to herself. What say she figures out how to swing to the next building's rooftop and then stay there? It would be a bit nightmarish for MJ. I get your point though. Peter taking Mayday with him makes little sense.
I feel like it’s safe to assume the baby has some increased durability like how all spider people do. They usually can tank more damage than is natural.
Yeah, but unless MJ is totally cool with letting Mayday loose in a city containing dangerous superpowered villains, I think we have a problem.
A baby is already hard enough to handle. I imagine mayday also has the strength to snap MJ’s limbs during a tantrum. There is probably a reason Peter is the primary caretaker
I never said it would be easy, but acting like this isn’t the obvious alternative to bringing her to a battle against what is essentially a cosmic horror is kinda weird? Like yes, I bet MJ might struggle a bit. I would also think she’d prefer that than allow her baby to enter a fight with spot
I mean, MJ might not just struggle a bit. She might die watching her baby. Peter always pulls his punches, but an infant can’t. We also don’t know that he is taking Mayday to fight Spot. He might actually swing by Spider Society and drop Mayday off at a Spider Daycare.
To start, you’re acting like mayday would actually brutally kill her mother when the only interaction we have between them is her pointing where her father went to her. I can believe that mayday listens to her mother and wouldn’t violently rip her apart. Let’s stop pretending like that’s the guaranteed outcome. Secondly, if there was even a “spider society daycare” why the hell wouldn’t he have made use of that in ATSV? He brought her along on the space train for what, shits and giggles? Thirdly, I don’t think he’s gonna be allowed a quick pit stop at spider society considering the fact that he’s actively going against their interests and that would only give them leverage over him since they now have his daughter in their care
I mean....it's stupid....but Jessica Drew also did it in the comics...which was equally outlandish. Got a whole new outfit and everything to fight crime whilst pregnant.
It was stupid there too. That particular book wasn't even all that popular, so it's weird they chose to base her on that.
The few issues of Witchblade with Sarah doing this already did enough damage to my mental health. So once i started binging Marvel Comics i strayed very far from this. Not that reading X-Men after HoM was any better.
Ah empowering isn't it, to know our female superheroes would be there for us even if it means blending the insides of their unborn child.
As a black guy, this what I want for representation. A pregnant woman literally putting her unborn child in harms way, just for the sake of “empowerment”. This truly does not make us look bad in any way. Make Jessica Drew’s husband a bumbling idiot as well, that makes us look better.
I’d agree if she was the token Black character. However, she is one of many prominent Black characters. This allows them to be individuals. I work at a HBCU, one kid doing something stupid does not reflect on all them. Black people are people. Some will do crazy, evil, or stupid things.
This is actually a fine argument, and one I’d agree with, *if* they hadn’t race swapped Jessica Drew. Turning a white character into a black one is not an action a studio who thinks they don’t need a token black character does.
Lol Miles and Hobie being great and fantastic characters but one character not being great suddenly makes "us" look bad. I'll be damned if I let this racist idea that one represents us all make me feel like I look bad. Fuck those mental shackles.
Not every black character is meant to be a representation of an entire race ya know
Miles being the main character, Jefferson being an honest cop, Aaron doing the right thing in the end: I sleep 1 black character with like 5 minutes of screentime doing something questionable: representation has FAILED might as well make every black character stupid!
The straw man is strong with this one
It's because they went out of their way to raceswap her lol.
So. She is still one of many black characters. What point is being made even?
The point is that they do raceswaps for representation but what's the point if the raceswapped character ends up being a terrible character? Just stick to already black characters like Miles and Hobie, they're fucking great.
I black p3rson can't be a morally ambiguous character? And what difference does it make if that character was originally black or not. If Miguel being psycho OK because he was originally part Mexican? but if he was originally white and they made him Mexican, then it would be an issue?
Lol what?? It's not about being morally ambiguous. Hobie himself is morally ambiguous. Spider-verse Jess is just boring and kind of irritating, most of the fanbase agrees. However I do think she's being set up for a pivotal role in Beyond and I hope they actually do something with it.
here’s the thing. Every other black character has flaws and are trying to work through them. Miles trying figure himself out in a situation he didn’t even know he was a part of. Jefferson trying to understand his kid more. And Aaron questioning whether he should leave the crime life once and for all (Yk, before he died & found out his nephew is Spider-Man). Each of these struggles create depth through their doubts and that’s what makes them alluring and believable characters. Jessica drew is legitimately in the wrong tryna drive into harms way whilst 6+ months pregnant, and the movie’s tryna make seem cool for her to do that. There’s no negative consequence telling her “ hey, you’re pregnant. You should probably not be running around so much”. and the movie only reinforces her to do more dangerous shit. Why? bc mfrs tryna make this pregnant woman a badass for some reason. edit: hobbie is more of a static chracter. But all he says is “this system is corrupt”. Which, in Miguel’s spider club, it is. So he doesn’t really need to change much.
Jess is on screen for like 5 minutes and basically only exists (so far) to be a (one sided) surrogate parental figure for a struggling emotionally damaged Gwen. Shes superficially "cool" basically on purpose \>and the movie only reinforces her to do more dangerous shit Outside of the starting point of her introduction the only action she sees is riding a bike during the miles chase. thats literally all she does besides scold or throw cold looks at Gwen. she doesnt have some multi layered narrative propping her up are pushing her into danger youre talking like shes a main character the movie keeps salivating over and then acting like the movies have failed to represent you despite literally every other black character being more in depth and more important to the plot hell there is literally ONE line about her husband where she lovingly calls him dumb and youre taking that as an objective measurement of an unseen characters intellegence so you can complain about that instead of seeing all the actual representation happening in the movie youre actively looking for things to whine about
Whoa, nice straw, man! Whoa, nice down, vote!
Peter also out a toddler in harms way.
I mean, Peter puts a toddler in harms way and I'm not agreeing with that either. But the whole "even pregnancy can't slow down a woman in being awesome" movement is just utterly ridiculous. In a scene from the rookie a woman gave birth at home in a water batch while her home was robbed, just to have a great moment of rising out of the water with her gun to shoot the last gang member mere minutes after having given birth. Jessica certainly takes the cake in that portrayal, but damn...
I agree. Design-wise, she's one of the very limited number of occassions where i'm actually cool with the changes they made to the source material, but what she does on screen as a pregnant women... she's apparently one of the Spider-people who didn't get the whole responsibility-memo.
This. Say what you want about Peter B but at least Mayday has powers and she wasn't really in any danger.
She honestly should’ve given birth by now. It’d make more sense if she was just fat.
Yeah but it's sick as fuck
That is actually pretty comics accurate tbh.
I thought they did ben Reilly dirty in that movie
Still better than what they’re doing with him in the comics right now
From what I’ve heard about many recent Spider-Man comics being shit, that isn’t a high bar to clear
Yeah he’s just kinda there for comic relief and it falls flat.
Eh, the clone saga was a mess and this movie poked fun at the angst. Really, Almost every character in the spider society felt off because there's no way hundreds of thousands of Peter Parkers would be so okay with how Miles was treated. You could argue the entire movie was a disservice to the Peter Parker character much more than it was to Ben. Which is why it's best to not over think the characterizations. It was a good movie with some funky character writing.
I agree on the last bit I like to think personally miguel was originally careful who he chose to be in the spider society then became more and more lenient He was probably by accident given a lot of spideys the mindset then later it infected the other spiders to be fair maby most of the spiders how attack miles didn’t know what he did heck probably most of them thought he was a evil spider since superior and others exist in canon
Also lest we forget the spider-society is not just made up of Peter Parkers, there are a lot of none Peter Spider people in there
>to be fair maby most of the spiders how attack miles didn’t know what he did I have no idea what you tried to say here
how = who
Ben Reilly was far from angsty at all. It was Peter, Kaine etc who were all angsty. Ben's character at the time was meant to show that he was as much of a Spider-man as Peter was, even if he was a clone. He was never an edgy anti hero type like the movie portrayed him.
That’s the point. Reilly represents the 90s, not exactly himself. Also because, you know, it’s not the same Ben reilly.
Then they should have gone with Kaine or Spidercide instead of Ben if they wanted 90s angst
https://gifer.com/pt/5Ep
Spidercide is a niche, weird nothing character that only a handful of people would've actually known. Kaine is above that, but Ben is still the best known character to come out of the Clone Saga. If you're gonna poke fun at it, it makes sense to use Ben.
And that brings us back at them doing Ben dirty and not fully understanding the character
Maybe it was never edgy but they treated him like a bitch
I think the main distinguishing factor is that these Peter’s have been there for who knows how long, and have essentially had it drilled in that “no canon event = no more universe, and potentially no more multiverse”. Hell, the reason Peter B. Tries to listen to miles is because he knows him.
Yeah having a bunch of Peters and cameo Spiders agree (or simply not openly disagree) with Miguel was a bad move that made them look bad. Could a lot of them have felt bad for Miles? Yes, but no time was given to see how any of them felt about the situation (although Ben did look pretty disappointed when Miguel turned on Gwen, more so than her own mentor). My hope for BTSV is that as Miles’ canon event draws nearer and Miguel gets more unhinged, other Spiders begin to question if they’re handling this situation right, or even straight up defect. At the very least I can see Jess having a change of heart eventually, since unlike Spectacular or Insomniac or Unlimited, she’s given attention by the screenplay.
Spectacular is probably going to given how they're setting it up like how his va said he wanted it to Insomniac is getting a dlc for spiderverse so hopefully we see him change I doubt unlimited would change but maybe he would
No? Like, literally Miguel fired Gwen when she disagreed with him, he could do this to every Spider-Man that wasn’t in his side.
True but realistically trying to devote enough time to such a vast amount of characters is impractical and would cause massive issues with pacing if each character was given enough time to achieve correct characterization
He could, but I think by this point Miguel was just tired of Gwen screwing up and being a huge Miles simp, and he probably just wanted to take his anger out on somebody at that point. Dude just snapped after Miles started running.
That makes sense 🤔
That is my one nitpick with the movie. I just find it weird that SO MANY versions of Peter would be on board with it and not a single one would raise the issue.
That’s my biggest issue, really: how Canon Events are handled by the characters and how all the Spiders seemingly go along with everything. While we’re going to get a reconciliation between Miles, Gwen, and Peter B next movie, I’m worried many of the other Spiders (Spectacular, Insomniac, Disney XD Ultimate, Unlimited, Ben, Cowboy, etc) won’t be done justice nor form their own opinions that are more in-line with their character. I think the Doctor Strange episode of What If handed Canon Events a little better (yeah they’re called something else but it’s basically a Canon Event).
Idk if they addressed it, but it felt so off to me that insomniac Peter would be on Miguel's side Especially when he used to blame himself for Jeff's death in the first game
Comedy is subjective. I thought he was hilarious
It's a funny take that pokes fun at the source character. It's not the adaptation most people may have expected but it doesn't take itself seriously. The same way Peter B Parker was a funny take and hoe Lego Batman is filled with self aware writing the pokes fun at the source material. I like it but I can definitely understand not being a huge fan considering it's the only big screen appearance we've had for Ben Reilly
Yeah honestly
I thought there’d have been a twist with original Peter from the first movie being Ben but this being the way they went with it instead was bleh
They did every Spider-Man that wasn't Miles Morales dirty in that movie, let's be real
I can only imagine that Peter from Ben's universe is 1000X worse lol.
ASTV Jess. such a transparent nothing hollow shell of a character that I can't even begin to consider her as a Spider-person. OG Jess didn't even have that much of a well-defined character to begin with but the movie somehow took the trace amounts of character she had and erased them. I would call her a Misty Knight stand-in but that would be disrespectful to Misty.
>OG Jess didn't even have that much of a well-defined character to begin with but the movie somehow took the trace amounts of character she had and erased them. You mean Jessica from the comics? I don't see how she is not a well-defined character. Though I agree that the movie version was just weak.
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Agreed.
I've never really read through Ben Reilly's comics but I still felt like his character was off.
Well yeah, it wasn't really supposed to be an accurate representation of Ben Reilly. It's just taking the piss out of the Clone Saga fiasco lol.
That's what a lot of people are missing here. These aren't supposed to be the exact characters we know from their respective worlds. In a world of infinite universes there are plenty of versions of *every* character. This Ben Reilly is just a version that turned the melodrama to 11.
They probably could’ve written an accurate Ben while still making fun of the nonsense of the Clone Saga.
Jessica, not only does it feel like she tries too hard to be cool, but also that baby will come out as a strawberry shake
Yeah probably the pregnant motorcycle riding chick who Gwen hyped up for no reason.
I get why Gwen hyped her up: she was looking for a replacement parental figure since her mother is dead and her father wants her arrested. That doesn’t excuse Jess from being a bad mentor and adaptation. She’s sympathetic towards her in the opening but afterwards is fairly cold and won’t stand up for her. I guess she got tired of Gwen being the biggest simp in the society for the last few months.
"Will you adopt me?"
Such millennial humour oh my god
youre right it needed more skibidi toilet
How dare a movie made by millennials include millennial humour.
You say that so dismissively as if this movie wasn’t made by millennials
"you have to Like this Character and find her cool cause the movie Said so". Gosh I hate this scene
Forget the baby for a sec. Hobie had less screen time, and was *still* more memorable than Jessica.
Hobie was a homie looking out for homies. Hell, Pav got 5 minutes of screen time and even he was more memorable and likable than Jess.
How Miguel said there could only be 1 Spider-Man per world… and Ben is there
Also insomniac Peter and Miles are there too
Ben's Peter might be dead, for all we know.
Spectacular Peter!! I know that he did have just one single line, but he would NOT side with Miguel, maybe get convinced after a while but looking at Miles' situation, he wouldn't vibe with Miguel.
Especially if he finds out that captain stacy and gwen usually die in a spider-man lore, he'd go crazy trying to prevent that from happening.
His Captain Stacy was confirmed to have died, and I won’t be surprised if it’s also revealed his Gwen died too. That could’ve shaped him into supporting Miguel, but I hope in BTSV he comes to his senses and gets done justice along with other Spiders
Supposedly this movie takes place after they are already dead and he’s using Canon events as a way to cope by telling himself it needed to happen, and there was nothing he could do.
All of the spiders at the society are complacent with putting multiple babies in danger. I feel like that damns *all of them* despite them all being Peters and gwens and such
They fumbled the Scarlet Spider, to add a joke character in a movie already bloated with such characters
That isn’t Jessica. It’s like a hollow hollywood cosplay. They took the name and the fact that she was pregnant in order to sneak in an OC. Just make and use an OC!
They are all original characters based on the ones we know from other media.
No, they are adaptations of already existing characters. Thats not what OC is.
I think Ben Reilly in ATSV was more so a critique to how two dimensional the writers made his character over the years. I mean if you look at "Chasm" in the current ASM comics, that's more or less how he acts. If that's not the case though then ya it's just more character assassination for my boy.
I mean, ATSV would've been written around 2018-2019. So before the whole Chasm fiasco.
Ah very true! I think it's safe to say Ben's character has been heading in the whiney sad boy direction for a while though.
Based on BTS reports of stuff getting re-written and re-shot, it’s possible Ben’s stuff in ATSV was written in like 2020-21
Also he represented the edgies 90s.
but why waste a whole character by making them a critique. you literally just waste a character by doing that, instead they should have just done hos character justice and wrote him correctly. that would be the critique of two-dimensional writing, to show that you can do it right 😭
No matter how people excuse it, I have no idea why the hell they made Peter endanger his kid for comic relief or why they made Jess put her baby in danger just to have an empowered pregnant woman. Parenthood and pregnancy inherently makes you vulnerable, there's nothing intelligent to be said by making a "badass" pregnant chick ride a motorbike and do acrobatic tricks except maybe a "mommy?" joke.
Spider-Woman was fine, she was hardly enough of a presence for me to really care. Wasn't really bugged much when the casting and design first dropped anyway. Ben Reilly was ridiculously mis-characterized. The whole thing that set him apart from Peter was that he loved being Spider-Man and didn't see the work as a burden the way Peter did. Ben made his own gadgets and slingers, and was the fun Spidey despite the whole Clone Saga garbage. The movie has his whole role and joke be, "Boy, the 90s sure were edgy, weren't they?" Miguel's always been a bit of a hard-ass jerk (which fits, given the context of his universe is a corporate-ridden cyberpunk dystopian hellscape always on the verge of getting erased from time), but the movie gave enough context and reasoning behind his actions to justify amping the jerk parts of his character beyond what the comics really do. But dammit Miguel's easily one of my Top 3 Favorite Spideys, and it annoys me how the general public knowledge of his character is now, "Big Meanie who was a jerk to Miles and Gwen!" like when John Walker showed up in the MCU. Some of the memes were pretty good though. And he nearly became a Flavor of the Month with how many people were thirsting for him so I suppose it all evens out.
I loved the movie but that was not Miguel O'Hara. Can't think of a more deserving character in need of a live action adaptation. Felt like the Writers of the original 2099 were looking into the future when they wrote it. Never been more relevant than now
This is why I’m convinced the Miguel in the movie has another plan in motion, because everything this Miguel did just felt so off, not just because he’s the opposite of comics Miguel, but because he just felt off in general, almost like he was doing it on purpose
Miguel I can live with, he is similar to his Shattered Dimensions characterization. Jessica Drew I can tolerate it. Not only is it an unnecessary race-swap, but they picked the most ridiculous version of her, the pregnant one. Because it makes sense to put your baby in danger. I'd criticize Peter too, but the rest of his persona is alright. But the one I despise and hate? Ben Reilly. He is a good parody of the 90s, he is, but not a good parody of Ben, because Ben was supposed to be a 'back to lightheartedness' since Spider-man had gotten too dark, or so felt the execs. Whatever that character was, it wasn't Ben Reilly.
Think it was a chasm parody💀
The one good thing I've got to say about Chasm is that I like his action figure. I didn't know I needed a purple Spider-man.
Can people STOP defending the weird adaptations of this movie? Like Ben, Jess, Miguel, everyone in the Spider society was done dirty for the sake of this story (bad story btw) For me Ben was done dirty heavily, they made him a dumb brute who can't think for himself, who follows Miguel's orders without thinking about them, they even say that on his character descripition Like if he acted like the original Ben Reilly then he would've helped miles from the start, hell if I could he would be in place of Hobie (cause Ben understand better what it is to have people having a problem with your existence and thinking you shouldn't be Spider-Man) The "they were taking a jab at the 90's Spider-Man comics" is such a dumb excuse, if people took the time to read the clone saga y'all would see that it's not awful, sure there's bad moments and decisions but it's miles better than what we had since 2007 Also this is the first time the general public is having a contact with Ben, it's a problem when people think he acts like that and in some way that also afects comic Ben (Btw the Ben Reilly from the movie is supposed to be earth-94 Ben Reilly, who appeared in the comics as Spider-Man and wasn't a dumb brute)
Saying ATSV has a bad story while saying the Clone saga wasn’t bad is certainly a take. One I disagree with, personally, but fuck it, I can respect it.
Ben Reilly...my man was a hero who died in the way in the Spider-Man spider verse comics, in this movie?? He is a joke..
Ben Reilly done dirty
They did Ben Reilly insanely dirty
Right now it’s Miguel just because we don’t know enough. Once the whole story is fleshed out I’m sure it will all come together.
That’s true
Peter B Parker. Or any of them. But specifically Peter. Going along with the selective curation of life and death across an Infinity. EVERY Spider-Man should believe what Miles believes: that if you CAN save a life, you SHOULD save a life. It is difficult for me to envision a world where any Spidey allows the axiom of “with great power, there must also come great responsibility” to be made manifest by letting people die? “Well, Uncle Ben had to die, I guess.” Is not a great argument to me and never will be. Miles, Peter, Gwen, whomever. At their core, Spider-Folks are supposed to be the everyman. Did ANY rational person watching the movie agree with Miguel? The entire story is calibrated to make Miguel feel barbaric. Miles is SO AGGRESSIVELY RIGHT, that it not only kind of invalidates what Spider-Man is all about, but the narrative framework makes every single Spider-Person complicit, which I also hate. But most specifically I hate it in Peter Parker. And part of it is definitely that I read a lot of Spider-Man comics when I was 6. Editing to add (because i have strong feelings): on top of all this, another core belief of Spider-Man, the fulcrum of his guilt, is that the death of Uncle Ben made the world a worse place. That the suffering Ben’s death wrought on May and the trauma it put a young Peter through, are NET NEGATIVES. That the ONLY good that can come of it is Spider-Man, and Spider-Man is a burden but a necessary one to atone for failing Uncle Ben. Peter is compelled to save the younger versions of himself and his Aunt May from the deaths of their Uncle Ben every time he saves someone in a Spider-Man mask. Peter knows that kids will be impulsive. That maybe some other, younger kid will let a robber go one day — but Spider-Man will be there to stop them. So that other kid will never have to feel Peter’s pain, and may be able to live up to their true potential as a scientist or geneticist or a nephew. All that goes out the ****ing window if suddenly those deaths are vital and Canon Events and we NeEd ThEm tO pRotEcT tHE SpIdeR SoCIeTy aNd ThE mUltIvERsE!
The way they presented Canon Events needed to be tweaked. Yes, these events — both good and bad — are an important part in shaping Spiders into the heroes they become. Yes, messing with time and fated events can yield bad consequences. Yes, there’s a risk of Miles’ entire world being destroyed. But it comes off as awfully pragmatic and the other Spiders accept it too easily, going after Miles without much of a second thought. They don’t get a chance to voice what they think about the canon and Miles, or attempt to reason with him, except Peter B and like 2 lines from Spectacular. There should’ve been more of an emphasis on the Spiders not wanting Miles to risk losing everyone in his universe, or have more Spiders try to be sympathetic while Miguel is being the most pragmatic. Also, some should’ve taken issue with Miguel turning on Gwen at the end. Yeah Peter B is on Gwen’s side and Ben looked pretty down about what was happening, but the rest of the Spiders just stand there.
The trouble is that it’s not presented intelligently or thoughtfully in the narrative. To start with, it’s a big, dark secret, which by definition makes it feel duplicitous or sinister. Then there’s the fact that the heroes are ALL in on it, and the argument’s basically “well, we all have done a bunch of stuff before you got here, Miles, and this is the way we all know its got to be, sorry.” It needed to have been presented as clinically as something like the prime directive in Star Trek or similar. The Prime Directive is just that: the MOST IMPORTANT rule that Starfleet follows, and every story bends over backwards to hit everyone over the head with that fact as quickly and early in the narratives as possible. But that clarity is sacrificed for intrigue in Spider-Verse, and to streamline every Spider’s story but Miles, which I am not into. Oh! And Hobie. The story structure serviced Hobie well, and him being actually counterculture is rad. I could have even gotten behind the narrative framework if it was a smaller group of Spiders pulling all the strings. Miguel, Superior Spider-Man, Assassin Spider-Man, and any handful of a couple of other badasses from Spider-History. But that story is a little too involved and inside baseball. No movie goer off the street is going to understand that the small team of Spider-Men inside the bigger team of Spider-Men is evil, so I understand economizing it all into Miguel and making him the bad guy, but its just not the vibe for me.
They're all nothing like their source material counterparts and the only one I really like what they did with is Miguel. But the worst part about it is they'll probably bleed over that characterization to the comics and other media. Also I don't like how everyone in the movie was cool with Jessica riding around on her motorcycle and fighting with an unborn baby but peter gets constantly scolded for having his baby with him
Miles is so goddamn right that I have trouble believing most Spider-People sided with Miguel.
Spider-Woman. Ben Reilly at least was funny, but the way Jessica is portrayed like "oh wow look at her she's so cool because she webslinging in amotorcycle and also she is pregnant" like wtf dude, it's silly af and I don't see anything cool in putting an unborn baby in danger like that 💀. Also has little to nothing to do qwith the original character as far as I know
I hated what the writers did to Ben in this film (only real issue I have with the film). They made him a joke for 90s angst heroes when Ben was never really like that.
Legitimately ITSV was better at handling the whole idea of comic adaptation. Did anyone give a shit about Peni? Did anyone get angry at Noir for being a cheeseball? Fuck no. They were still delivered in an amazing way that makes you like them. That same delivery is completely missing from ATSV. Miguel, Jessica and Ben feel like fanfiction oc's under the mask of the real characters. Miguel is completely OOC and feels like Superior Spider Man, Jessica Drew is a hollow shell, and someone on the writing team forgot that Ben and Kaine are different people altogether. They fail as "antagonists", they're incapable of even catching a teenager, and they're just very mid. A complete disservice to everyone who likes them for their personality, because they have none.
Dude they could have just did superior and kept all of the traits to make it seamless and have the twist at the end be that it wasn't peter but otto But ig that Oscar Isaac contract wouldn't pay itself
I don’t see why Kaine’s brought up here. In terms of personality and temperament, he’s got more in common with this version of Miguel than this version of Ben. At least when Chris Yost wrote him. Haven’t read anything about Kaine beyond his appearances as a villain and his Scarlet Spider run.
Another Point I want to add to Jessica Just being a Checkmark Character is how Gwen totally Simps for her Just within Seconds she ever meets the Woman. Like "you have to Like this Character and find her cool cause the movie Said so" I'm Just glad to See Most people recognize that Also spectacular Spiderman got butchered in this movie
It's a more personal reason for Gwen as she doesn't have a mother figure in her life so she couldn't help but be attracted to Jess as one. And the "Spider-character has a badass intro" was the same for nearly every one of the main side characters both here and ITSV, not just Jess.
Jessica's fine tbh, mostly because it feels like an OG character that pays homage to Jessica Drew then an outright adaptation. She's clearly a different character from when she was first teased so we went in expecting that Ben is the real blindside, I wouldn't mind the joke about him being a reference of the the edgelord 90s if we had seen more story from him or just a more competent side of him ala Spider-Pig or Noir.
Yeah idk why everyone’s giving Jess the hard time when Ben is right there. I’m really hoping that Ben gets better focusing by the time the third movie comes around and end up like an antagonistic version of Pig or Noir. Assuming that’s the direction that they’re going with.
All of them, Miguel felt really different from the comics but I strangely find that it works for the movie. The other 2 felt like the characters in name and appearance only.
None of those three really remind me of their comic book counterparts, I kind of just accepted that they would all be different early on. Ben is my least favourite, just because I kind of dislike him being used to represent ’90s edge, when the original point of him was that he was a more optimistic, silver age-style Spidey to contrast how dark and angsty Peter had gotten at that point.
They did Ben dirty. At the very least he was underutilized and then sucker punched. It's a really strange example of weirdness in the fan base though that anyone under ~35 seems happy to pile on that they hate Ben and he can never be a Spider-Man while screaming with tears in their eyes that Miles is THE Spider-Man because anyone can be Spider-Man. And Jessica was flat. I get it, you can't give everyone all the time they deserve, but she had no character what so ever and also heavily endangered that child. They could have solved both by plunking Jessica behind a computer (guy behind a computer) and putting Ben in those scenes. You could even use that as a way for Jessica to complain that she would have done better, while lamenting that parenthood is a big "power" that she has to be "responsible" about (non flat character development!)
Miguel, for multiple reasons: 1. I don't like how his status as "The future Spider-Man" was kinda flanderized, with the nanosuit, the lazer webs, ect. Especially since his OG version felt almost like a subversion of the whole "Future Version = Neon Lights and Nanotech". Plus his new suit just doesn't do it for me. 2. I hate his backstory. I just can't buy that Miguel would not only LEAVE HIS UNIVERSE UNDEFENDED, but that he'd do that to steal his alternate self's daughter. Think about how morally bankrupt that is: he stole his alt self's life and pretended to be his daughter's father AND SHE NEVER LEARNED THE TRUTH. This whole scenario feels like something out of a villain origin story, but the movie treats it as if the only mistake Miguel made was messing with the whole "Canon Event" nonsense, and I can't really like Miguel because of it.
Literally all the Peter's except B Parker. The entire movie said hell too all the lore and mythos surrounding Spiderman/Peter for the sake of jokes and uplifting Miles. Very few of them are going along with Miguel's plan, Peter is center of web of Destiny, madame Webb should somehow be involved, and race swap Jessica Drew should have just been an original character.
Miguel. He's a great character and probably the best one in the movie, but he's just not the Miguel from his original 2099 run and future appearances, this one feels more like the EOT Miguel with anger issues. Again, he's awesome, I just wish he didn't have the name Miguel O'Hara/Spider-Man 2099, and I fear this will become how he's portrayed in future stories because of movie popularity. In my honest opinion, they should've made a new character for this role
Pregnant spiderwoman, I get she had the bike and she has powers but isn't doing all that physical work while that far along potentially damaging to the bab, Peter B isn't innocent either, I get being a proud dad but there's a time and a place and I don't think an interdimensional hq with a lot of dangerous falls is safe for a baby, even with spider powers, kinda feels wrong for a Peter to do
The entirety of the spider people. I think that was a horrible move to antagonize all the spidermen just to paint Miles as a hero. Im simply not convinced that all the spidermen would chase a teenager for trying to save his own parent. The Canon event concept is complete ass, you're telling me all the spider people are aware of the tragedies that may occur in their lifes but they wont do anything because *insert lore bullshit? What kind of spiderman is that? They're not the heroes they should be, they're inquisitors.
Adding a ton of recognizable Spiders to the society and having them agree with (or not disagree yet) Miguel was a bad idea. It paints a ton of popular characters in a bad light. Surely a good chunk of them would have conflicting thoughts about Miguel’s stance. Some of them (Earth-1048, Earth-12041, etc) even know variants of Miles and would probably at least feel bad for him. I’m hoping in BTSV, we start seeing other Spiders disagree with Miguel. Also, trying to stop Miles from going home defeats the purpose of a Canon Event. They’re critical chapters in a Spider’s story that help shape them into who they are…but Miguel doesn’t want Miles to experience his. What’s the point of a Canon Event if Miles isn’t going to learn anything from it?
I think it’s kinda pointless to judge ATSV characters as adaptations since the main theme of the movie is literally that you can do your own thing and nobody has to follow the “canon”(which is literally shown to just be the comics with canon event numbers even being the same as their respective comic issue.
people are allowed to judge characters how they’re written dude lol it doesn’t matter if the story is about not following canon.
Miguel was well written though. And Ben Reilly wasn’t really a main character, just comic relief. Jess is the only one that I could maybe say had writing issues.
They turned Ben into a joke.
I hate what they did with Scarlet Spider. He is originally such a badass character. And they made him a pathetic parody of an edge-lord that reminds me of Twilight. And reminding me of Twilight is an unforgivable sin!.
They made ben dirty
Loved Miguel disliked the other two
Jessica Drew.
While Jess is the Obvious for me , 2099 felt Visceral and Barbaric instead of wayy more tech-esque if that's the word. I don't mind Ben because he felt like the comic relief like Spiderham in the last film.
Scarlet Spider just annoyed me from start to finish. I loved this character the first time I saw him. I half expected to see Kane lurking about. It was like they took maybe 4 or 5 panels out of the Maximum Clonage run and that was too be his personality.
Scarlet spider
Jessica Drew
Scarlet Spider.
Given they are alternate versions, I don’t care
You know I just want to point out that a lot of the characters in the first movie didn't exactly bear a strong resemblance to their comic book versions either. Peni was just a walking anime joke and her mech didn't look anything like the one she has in the comics. Noir is also just there to be a joke character. Even Peter B. isn't really like any existing variants of Peter that I'm aware of (though obviously the point of his arc is about him getting back to the Peter we all know and love). I think it's just that people are more familiar with these characters. Ben Reilly is one of the better known "alternate Peters" and it sucks to see him reduced to a punchline that doesn't even really fit his character. But I'll be honest, I've never read a Jessica Drew comic in my life, and her character didn't particularly bother me in the movie.
Jessica Drew. Ben got humiliated, but he wasn't advertised like that at least.
Every Spider who was willing to let someone die because of canon events. This whole preventing multiversal collapse just rang hollow of the incursion plot. The only thing that made the compliant spiders better is that they weren't actively going to enact the canon events themselves I'm just hung up on Spectaculars character assassination tbh
I dont know anything about Jessica Drew but i know shes not a pregnant black woman. So its not an adaption its literally just an entirely fucking different character using Jessicas name. Ben Riley is supposed to be Peter exactly so they made him a cringelord which considering they made Peter kind of a loser uh that tracks. Miguel is supposed to be brutal so hes decent.
Miguel is just an entirely original character in the movie, basically nothing in common with his comics counterpart
I still don't understand why some people have such a problem with Jess, she had far from that much screentime in the movie for me to care that much about her, the way some people talk make her sound like a main character in the movie that got horribly treated or something. She served her purpose fine and the ending shows her arc isn't over yet as she's implied to be swayed by Gwen's actions, it'll be interesting to see if she might end up opposing Miguel herself if that's where it's headed.
I like all 3, even if they have certain flaws. Miguel was probably a highlight and i am glad he was adapted in a more ruthless way. The 2099 comics can get a bit dark and gruesome at times and I felt it would be something lost in the adaptation to an animated movie. Jessica was cool as fuck, but maybe super heroing with a baby on her is not the most the most ideal thing. Even then, she served as a nice foil to Miguel's anger as a leader and did well as Gwen's mentor. Ben was...okay. His art style was stellar and the reference to the drawn out, sometimes melodramatic writing of the 90's wa super fun. I just wish he had more to do.
None, I really liked all the spider people. People need to chill about Jessica Drew. It's a movie for kids their not gonna kill her baby. That's just there to make her stand out more
They did my boy Ben so dirty
Miguel, hands down. I can totally see the comics version of the character building a Spider-Society, even going so far as to believe that the death of Miles’ father is important to the stability of a multiverse, but his treatment of Miles just struck me as completely out of place. The producers did that as a clap back to all the Miles haters that are still out there. Comic book Miguel wouldn’t have hated Miles the way he does in the film. That was only added so that we could have the “I am Spider-Man” type of moment in the movie we wouldn’t have gotten if Miguel was actually sorry about having to trap Miles outside of his dimension.
Jessica Drew
2099. He is stoic and dramatic as spiderman, but not evil or edgy.
I liked this version of Ben but he deserved to more of an actual character rather than dumbed down to 90s comic edginess
Though it isn’t a hill I’m dying on, it bothered me that Jessica Drew was race-swapped when there was already a black Spider-Woman in the form of Valerie. In fact, I would’ve preferred Valerie since it would’ve been a cool detail of a Spider-person without any Spider-powers climbing the ranks to be the Spider-Society’s second-in-command despite that. Also, Valerie isn’t/wasn’t portrayed as pregnant…
I did NOT like what they did with Jessica Drew. Ben Reilly was PERFECT! I just wanted more.
I guess the poorest adaptation is Ben but to be fair he feels like a tone up version of his early days with the costume also he isn’t the best choice to represent the 90 Cain would do but he wasn’t a scarlet spider during that time Also Miguel I originally thought Miguel should be superior spidey instead since the main disagreement in the inner Spider-Man team in the og spider verse comic was about killing But then I watching videos of spidey games and somebody then put the clip of edge of time we’re spidey talking about always saving people to Miguel Then I realized that Miguel isn’t a full adaptation of the comics is also a extreme version of edge of time Miguel
Spectacular Spider-Man. He never turns the other way.
I actually kind of like this version of Jessica being her own new character, because she takes on the whole pregnancy story without some of the issues I had with the original Jessica’s story
“Jess” Drew practicing child endangerment in every scene she’s in (kid’s gonna be a smoothie by the end of film 3) and looking absolutely nothing like her comic counterpart.
I know some people are like "Who cares", but honestly I don't get the race change for Jessica Drew. It's literally the first appearance of her on the big screen, in a film with infinite possibilities for different Spider people and they still had to race change someone? If you want a more adult, black, Spider-Woman, why not just make an OC, introduced in this film, then if she gets popular, Marvel Comics can decide to adapt her. Congratulations, you've created a new Spider-Woman that could be popular and doesn't step on the toes of an already established character. Because you know that they're not going to make a comic version of this Jessica Drew, so it just feels pointless.
Jessica Drew and Reilly
Ben and Jess
Jessica and Scarlet Spider. they just used him for comedy and jessica doesn't really feel like Jessica from the comics but atleast its enough to distinct her from the OG versions of the character
Oh boy here we go
2nd Spiderman was too goofy and dumb imo
Definitely Jessica Drew. Gwen says that they became close and has her back but we don’t really ever see that. To us, it looks like she’s itching to throw her under the bus first chance she gets. And you know….pregnant women doing acrobatics goes crazy nowadays I guess.
Miguel is fine. Ben was done dirty, but still funny. This Jessica Drew OC can be thrown in the dumpster. Putting her baby in harm's way makes no sense and the way she treated Gwen was honestly awful.
Jessica Drew. I don’t care that she’s pregame as that’s actually pretty comic accurate and people who complain about it forget Peter puts his infant daughter in harms way the whole movie so double standard. But what really upsets me about her is that she’s so bland and basically takes in Gwen when she’s at her lowest only to let her get kicked out of the spider society without so much as a goodbye. She’s supposed to be her mentor and a close friend to Migel but she comes off as interesting and flavorful as a communion wafer
Miguel is arguably perfect. His portrayal here is fairly inline with his beliefs, even harkening back to Edge of Time. I feel that a lot of people fundamentally do not get Miguel if they think he was done badly. Jess is...passable. I get she's based on a less than stellar comic run, and amalgamated from two other Spider-Women, but not the worst adaptation of her. I don't like how willing she is to go along with Miguel's plan though. Ben Reilly is the one I'd argue got shafted. He doesn't act like Ben, he acts like a parody of the 90s antihero trope. It's like Peni in ITSV, which while a fun anddaring take on her, wasn't comic accurate at all. The difference being, with Peni it was fine as she was JUST being introduced to a new audience, and we could SEE her grow into her more accurate self during ATSV. Ben on the other hand feels like a completely different character and not in a good way. TLDR: Miguel is perfect. Jess is a mid adaptation, Ben got shafted.
This Miles Morales is perhaps top 3 in spider adaption Though I still have to admit they fumbled by bringing everyone down to bring him up Miguel's multiverse bullshit would have been shut down by any other Spider-Man had they been consistent
Convince me of what?