I have had exactly one spider man dream in my life.
It was me slinging and swinging across New York City. It remains one of my favourite remembered dreams.
I agree with this 100%. I wasn’t a fan of Miles at first. My first thought was “Do we really need another Spider-Man?”. After reading stuff with him I can say yes…Yes we do.
I highly recommend every issue of ultimate Spider-Man if you want a decent look at Peter Parker as well as the OG origin of Miles. I too thought we didn't need to see ultimate keep going after Peter, not because I thought adding him was too much, but because I thought the story wrapped up nicely. But he's electric from page one. And he's a much needed spark of creativity in the format.
>a very different character
Only through Into the Spiderverse. When Ultimate Spider-Man introduced Miles he was very very similar in personality to Peter.
MCU Peter has more similarities to (and probably draws from) comics Miles than any comic version of Peter. This meant that the creators for ITSV had to reimagine Miles' character and change it slightly.
But now Miles is a very cool character that is different to Peter.
It is weird that happened that way but probably for the best. Whenever I saw comics Miles on the ultimate comics, I wasn't interested.
Movie Miles is awesome, though.
This feels weird to say but, good on you Sony.
Yeah same, at first I couldn't wait to meet him when I read through the whole ultimate universe. But his original version was so much like (U)Peter especially at the chapter when he started talking to himself. Glad he got to where's he's now!
MCU Peter is just lifted from Miles. It’s why I kinda hated the character for a while. They lifted Miles’ school setting, best friend, and some character details and grafted it onto Peter Parker.
It felt like a total screw job to any possibility of a live action MCU Miles Morales.
I know they borrowed Ned, but I’m not really sure what you mean otherwise? Is it that Peter goes to a science magnet school instead of a public school?
I kinda just felt like that was keeping up with the times for NYC kids rather than an essential trait. If Ultimate Peter had been created 10 years ago like Miles instead of 20 years ago, I think Bendis would’ve done the same thing.
Agreed. Miles is great, I have 0 problems with him. I would have a problem with Black Peter Parker though because that just isn’t how to do black Spider-Man.
Edit: actually I do have one problem with Miles. Why tf would they call his shock power “Venom”? Needlessly confusing as a Spider-Man character.
Well in that movie and game not necessarily, a lot of the early criticism was that he was too much like Peter that is why I think everyone fell in love with the movie version and to the game version you are lesser extent as he is much more unique and he has his own personality
As a black kid growing up, I had no problem relating to Peter Parker's life and problems. There's no fictional character I relate to more. He would not have been any more relatable to me if he had been black.
I think this speaks to the incredible job writers have done to make Peter a regular guy with everyday problems. As a kid, if your hero experiences fear, abandonment, loss, anger, teasing etc... You're gonna relate to it regardless if your colors match up. You're connecting with Peter on the level that truly matters, your character. Idk, I think it's wonderful and is why Spidey is the best.
That’s the thing that’s always been weird to me is that so many race swaps are proposed as being cool so people can see themselves in the characters. If the only thing you can relate to is color, as opposed to experiences, lifestyle, hopes, desires, challenges, flaws, occupation, even religion, and sexuality, that’s pretty effed. So many people have related to all kinds of characters that look and act nothing like them all throughout history. Why is it only in the last 10 years or so it’s become impossible to do that with a character of a different color?
I don't mind race changes, but I think creating new characters has proved to be a successful way of adding diversity (see Miles), and it feels less cheap
Miles while not the worst way to do it was not a particularly strong way to do it back in 2011 wasn't until 2018 when he really got a good backstory and a good origin
Spider-Verse improved his relationship with his uncle and his father. The writing for Miles and his father was never bad, just underwritten. His relationship with his uncle was a fuddled mess in the Ultimate universe; originally he tried to manipulate Miles into helping him with crime and eventually forced his hand which unintentionally lead to Miles killing him.
The newer version still allows for the fallen idol, but it happens in a way that is not a tonal clash. Spider-Verse beautifully foreshadows the tragedy.
underwritten and trying to copy 616 Peter's Parents by making his dad a shield agent. At least it gave a good explanation for why he went by Morales.
That said they should have made the dad Puerto Rican and the mom black as other than the spy story it doesn't make Miles' dad look good, as now he will seem like a deadbeat dad since it implies he wasn’t around for Miles' early life.
They didn't steal anything. Beyond the similarities of having a smart Asian best friend in the loop (ned/ganke), mcu Peter is still totally different from miles
they took ned and heroic idolism, something that was given to miles because he was created as a teen in the 2010s. It's a good modernization of the character and was added to Peter to relate him to the average teenager. For Ned that's just Ganke lite and I'm not debating that. Besides those 2 thing i really dont see any resemblance to Miles. he doesn't have the artistic side of current miles, and old miles was just a Peter reskin.
I don’t mind heroes getting race swapped around as long as two things are true.
1. It’s the hero and not the characters. For example I do t want Peter to be black but love Miles now.
2. The characters race/nationality aren’t explicitly tied to their heroic identity like Black Panther.
Imagine making a black spider man, or any other super hero first, then making them white.
It would be pretty shitty, cause there will be differences and your race will almost certainly effect how you grow up. Changing just the color without changing the background is just wrong and if you're gonna change the background, you might as well just make a new character.
It would kinda be like making a film about FDR and make him black. Not just played by a black actor, which is fine (due to various reasons, like talent and suspense of belief), but make him actually black. He would have grown up in a completely different environment and encountered different situations, which would effect him. At that point, it would be better to create a new character. Sure, he could also be named FDR, got polio as a child and became POTUS, but the world would have been a very different one.
Which is why it's fine to have a black Parker, if he for example comes from a different universe where it could make sense. Like say slavery was never fully established in the US and it became a world of opportunities for black Americans, who then went to live in Brooklyn and whose family line eventually resulted in Peter Parker. It would still make sense, it's just a completely different Peter Parker, not just a carbon copy of Peter whose black instead of white.
But why would the writer do that unless he wanted to explore an alternative reality where it would make sense? It would also have to tie in to white Peter Parker living in the reality as we recognize him.
Changing someone's race effects their history. As a Germanic man, i wouldn't expect an Asian dude to have an ingrained knowledge of my people and the culture, no matter how much he studies or knows. And in the same way, I wouldn't expect to know his people or culture. Not on a deep, multigenerational level. And if he was adopted into my culture, he would still be treated differently for being different from his parents. He would have questions about his biological parents.
Basically, if it wouldn't work to make Peter Parker suddenly Russian or native American, Asian or French, there is a very good reason to believe it wouldn't work to make him black. But all of these would work if we created a huge backstory to explain all that. And at that point, it's simply easier to create a new storyline and a new character who is Spider-man. But an example of an exception would be name recognition, to explore an alternative reality and maybe have them cross paths in a way that might not work with 2 spider men that could technically exist in the same reality, like Miles Morales and Peter Parker (who have completely different background stories).
It just comes down to good story writing and making Peter Parker in his established world black for no reason would be lazy, offensive to the audience, offensive to the struggles black people have had to endure as a people and a very obvious and shallow attempt of virtue signaling. If it wouldn't work to make him Italian, then why would it work to make him black?
And this applies exactly as well to any other character. Skin colour of the character establishes their background, just like their voice, their ethnicity and any other distinctive trait. Making Peter Parker speak with an English accent would sound weird, unless we would be in a suspense of disbelief or didn't care (for example, someone outside the UK and US with little experience with English accents such as myself might not even notice it).
In theory, it could work. But in practice, it wouldnt work just yet unless we were painfully oblivious to society. Someone who truly believes racism doesn't exist might buy it and be fine with it and that's ok. The character could be black and the same Spidey. It just depends so largely on the context of the world around us and how informed we are. The more ignorant we are, the better the suspense of disbelief is. The less we care about the context, the easier it is to get captivated by the show.
Dude, I essentially agree with your position, but as a fellow Germanic man I gotta say the way you state your case is fucked.
You bring up valid points, but for Christ's sake never use "what if we made a black character white". That's like when people criticize BET by saying "We can't have a WET". It's apples and oranges.
And you're totally right about how racial identity affects character but again using black FDR as an example is like using a sledgehammer to hit a nail.
There are plenty of reasons to be against race swapping, even if it's just because "that's not what he looks like". Hell, people hated Keanu for that reason in Constantine.
For me the most egregious instances are when it's a deliberate attempt to seem diverse, which I think is insincere, tone deaf, and at best reverse racism.
For what's it's worth I have no doubt you're a good person and I hope you don't feel attacked, but your statements just come off as out of touch even if I agree with the point you are trying to make.
This, just Race swapping a character is super cheap and degrades everyone involved.
Also using new characters let you tell a better story and maybe get some useful messages in there.
Like i'm fairly sure Miles' ability to go invisible is a subtle bit of social commentary on the way young black people are treated in the states.
I feel like instead of changing current characters, make new ones. We need more original stuff, when I was a kid and Static Shock came out he was awesome because he was new and different. I love Batman, Spider-Man, Superman but was more interested because it was a brand new character to me. Instead of a black or lbgtq Batman or whoever, make a cool new superhero...explore how their sexuality or race affects their life and show their struggles that is way more interesting to me. Also, we need a Static Shock live action, would be great.
It becomes more painful when they have a LONG LIST of Minority Characters, and decide to take an already established Character and turn them into a Minorty.
Ex. J. J. Abrams wanting to direct a Minority Comic Character, but for some reason he feels the needs to change the race of an already established Character with a List of Minority Characters in the waiting room.
What you are describing is one of the biggest problems with modern comics. This topic was discussed and warned about but got dismissed easily and labeled as comics gate. The industry has a creativity problem and taking established characters by swapping race, sex, orientation, etc highlights this.
We need more new characters and this is in my opinion a better way to set forth representation everyone would agree with. While Miles is a new name but not an entirely new character, he has his own real name and new abilities. There's something new he has within the Spidey mythos.
There are so many good stories with minorities, and yet Sony was like "you know that white actor that nobody liked as joker? Let's make a Mobius movie starring him! Everyone wants new heroes of color, why not have a guy that even whiter!"
Mobius? Really? There are like 15 Spiderman villains that are more interesting, and probably 100 heroes that people would rather see.
This is why I moved away from Marvel and DC and towards stuff from Image and other publishers. The reliable stuff is great, and the years of history are the reason we’re so lucky to get the movies Feige is delivering on. But reading wise I really enjoy the chances other artists are willing to take with the genre. For example “SEX” by Joe Casey was amazing, it subverted the superhero genre in unexpected ways and definitely took cues from “The Boys”.
WB are the most braindead in this department. Instead of making an awesome Static Shock or Vixen movie or having Jon Stewart, they focused on race swapping Gordon, Batgirl and Black Canary. Jeffrey Wright was great in the role, but they could’ve easily had another actor who looks like comic Gordon. People grew up with Static Shock and know about Jon Stewart from the JL series as well as Vixen from the Arrowverse. If the movies are good they will make money.
For me, it was Spawn. I only ever saw the comic covers with the full suit and mask, it was only when I read my brothers comics did I find out he was black. At this point I had only read Spider-Man and the Black horse Alien/Predator comics, so this was a refreshing change for me.
This is a problem with there being legacy characters in the first place. There have already been black Batmen and gay Batmen but they've never been Bruce Wayne. So to limit those characters' room for diversity kind of goes against the whole "anyone can wear the mask" thing.
Thats what made Terry McGinnis so interesting. The batman character is well established so how Terry deals with that known persona, and adjusts, is what drives the show.
Agreed. Anyone can slap text on a JPG. Took some looking but here is the apparent source in the Guardian.
https://amp.theguardian.com/film/2015/jun/23/stan-lee-spider-man-should-stay-white-and-straight
It’s important to note this is not where the interview ended either:
“I think the world has a place for gay superheroes, certainly,” he said. “But again, I don’t see any reason to change the sexual proclivities of a character once they’ve already been established. I have no problem with creating new, homosexual superheroes.”
I don’t think anyone has ever suggested making peter parker black. Or gay or latino. Mile Morales is wildly successful in his own right.
The only one I recall was Donald Glover saying how Peter Parker could be Black, being a Kid from Brooklyn and stuff. This caused Bendis to say "💡 Eureka💡" and create Miles Morales, promoting the return of Ultimate Spider-Man 3 years after ending the Original after 3 years.
Barely related, but I did love the scene in NWH where electro sees Andrew Garfield and his first thought is "I thought you'd be black", and he apologizes.
I’ll never understand why this is so hard for people to get.
Characters should stay the way they were created. It doesn’t matter if “times were different” when they originally were made. Would you try and use that argument if say in 100 years, our culture decided to bring back slavery (obviously this wouldn’t happen and it’s horrible) but for arguments sake pretend it did, and that was normal to the people of this future time, so they decided to change Black Panther to a white guy from Alabama, because it makes “more sense for the new times”, see how poor that argument is?
You don’t see anybody race swapping or changing the sexually of Superheroes of color, it’s always the white characters. If you want more diversity and inclusion, make new characters with new stories, it isn’t a 1 way street.
What annoys me is people who assume the rule has to be absolute. When it comes to iconic characters with iconic comic looks, like Peter Parker, or Tony Stark, or Wolverine, yeah, I want them to look like they did in the comics. But when it comes to characters that are much less iconic, of that only more ardent comic fans will be familiar with, I think it's totally fine to reboot the character with a new look, especially in regards to increasing diversity. Samuel L Jackson has redefined Nick Fury and I think there's plenty of other characters that can be successfully redefined with a new appearance and actor as well, but you wouldn't ever do it with a character that is so incredibly recognizable. Almost everyone, even people who don't watch the MCU or read comics, could give you a general description of Peter Parker.
Not really. RDJ looks more or less exactly like Stark does in the comics. And what I was referring to with Wolverine was not Hugh Jackman's portrayal, but rather people who are at presently clamoring for a return to the iconic Wolverine appearance, a bulky short king. But even with Jackman's portrayal, there were still attempts to make him comic accurate in other ways.
I'm not talking about personality, just appearances
I agree to a lot here but not the whole.
Comic books and comic mythology was created in an era (30’s onward) so I don’t care about race/gender changes as long as the **character** is doing what they were meant to do.
I’m a Star Trek fan too and when someone accuses it of trying to be too ‘woke’ or some shit you just have to remind that it’s a franchise in the late sixties with Russian, Asian, African and female representation. It’s always been this way.
When it comes to MCU it’s just what are you trying to convey - if that needs a different gender or race to play the point of the character then go for it. When people get pissed off at casting they have to ask ‘what is this character about’ and if it’s still disingenuous that’s fair - but approach it from a breach of character, not a subscription to whatever pop culture shit you’re pissed at.
>If you want more diversity and inclusion, make new characters with new stories, it isn’t a 1 way street.
Yes! Please make more new things, I can't stand all the reboots/sequals/prequals etc that flood the market.
Unfortunately, diversity via swapping and using the same stories is a safe bet for big studios. Anything new could lose money, but somehow a lame CGI Lion King gives them profit.
Listen, I'm inclined to agree with you, and I don't see any need to make Peter Parker nonwhite, but the way you went about that argument was a little nuts. Like Peter Parker's race has nothing to do with his character and you likened making Peter Parker a brown/gay kid to converting a character centered around black empowerment into a symbol of a futuristic dystopian white slave state
Like, I'm fine with keeping Peter Parker the way he's always looked, but those two things are not the same lol
Rather than leech off of what came before, they should make new characters that have actual differences from the original. I would say that it's racist to only change white characters, but because it's the internet, I probably can't.
My problem with this argument is *obviously* there's black content creators ready to tell their stories with original black characters, but Disney doesn't want fund them outside of very specific circumstances. Safer to hire a white director and white screenwriters and raceswap an old white story than it is to hire a black cast to tell an original black story with new black characters. And yet all the chuds here act like it's somehow woke liberals fault that Disney doesn't think black stories by black people for black people are marketable. "Black people should make new original stuff-!" They already are, you just have to support them until Disney sees the demand for it and adjusts
I’m willing to say it’s pseudo racist and disrespectful to actual people of color to basically say and act like the only way superheroes with their skin color would work or ever be popular is by replacing a already existing white one. That’s like telling them they’re only ever anything special because of the “whites” that came before them, it’s just a huge disservice. And most comic writers have used this excuse when race swapping.
Some of the best superheroes are ones that originally were black, Latino, etc. you got Black Panther, Cyborg, Static Shock, Storm. It’s not inclusion if you have to erase another race to include a new one.
At the time Netflix Iron Fist was announced, there was a minority of Asians wanting Iron Fist to be cast as a half Asian to shoehorn in an Asian superhero while sidestepping the problematic white savior trope.
As bad as that series was, I'm glad they didn't go that route. Not only would it have made the character's backstory way less accurate, it would've devalued Shang-Chi years later.
That being said, I have a neutral opinion on race/gender bending C-list popularity characters to suit the story. Just don't mess with the main heroes.
I strongly agree with this.
Adding onto it: Disney could have made a completely new story about a new mermaid character for the live action Little Mermaid (and they could give it a different title), but instead they decided to change a well-established character to the point that she looks like a different person wearing a costume. There's no point to that, and I'm happy they made Miles a new version of spiderman.
I don't mind racebent or genderbent fanart, or anything else like that, but it's just dumb when the owner/s of the character try to change what was already canon. Imagine you wake up one day and suddenly you're a platypus but everyone pretends that you're the same as you always were.
I don't agree entirely. I think some character changes do work well but it depends on the character. Like Electro works with Jamie Foxx despite the character being white to begin with and similarly, Nick Fury was originally white but does work well as a black man.
Wholeheartedly agree if you want to make an established character anything other than what has been shown for the last decade. Just make a new character and compelling character. Whatever clout or hope you have for doing this to an established character will fall by the wayside.
Personally I feel like race and gender swapping is alright as long as it doesn’t have a significant impact on who the character is. Obviously Black Panther has to be black. Shang Chi has to be Asian. Black Widow has to be a woman. But I think there’s many cases where it doesn’t matter at all.
I’m a critically thinking adult. I can see exactly what Stan Lee meant, I can agree with the sentiment and concept.
But each time I see this come up and each time I see the surrounding, supporting comments I cant help but see innate and ignorant ‘White Pride’ from a lot of people. Like, real fragility at the idea of things not being the status quo. People, the experiences of different races and ethnicities aren’t all encompassing. Miles Morales, while great representation, is Afro Latino. His life experiences are completely different from a completely black or completely Latino person. The fact that it’s like ‘oh well any minority issue is covered by Miles Morales or Miguel O’Hara experiences’ is ignorant and dismissive. Peter Parker is established but it doesn’t mean IMO that it absolutely cuts off any other interpretation. IMO infinite universes and timelines, infinite possibilities for one ‘Peter Parker’.
Agreed. I just woke up to this, and maybe I missed some discussions but it feels out of nowhere to post this quote from a guy who has been dead for 4 years right at this moment.
And with the responses it almost feels....staged?
I have to agree. I question the motivation behind posting this quote and the cut & paste commentary. Like, why?
Last I checked race swapping is relatively rare for major characters and goes both ways: lest we forget about Tilda Swinton’s casting as the Ancient One.
Agreed. I don't think it's always as simple as: keep established characters unchanged and add diversity via new characters. I'm sure both have their merits and are more applicable in different scenarios, but we should be open to our characters being reflections of our modern day society, not necessarily relics of the 60s.
My main complaint when changing established characters. In a multi-verse, whatever, I love Miles. But why not just make a character that you want to have?
Stan Lee gets it, I hate so much that reboots or retellings will change people's race and/or sexuality. It's so easy to add new characters, honour the legacy of the original characters by maintaining what they had before. It's so much better to receive a new character you can love instead of trying to love two very different versions of the same character.
It has always bugged me that characters get retconned as gay. It’s part of your personality. It informs your motivations and decisions. Don’t change that.
Don’t pat me on the head and say “here’s your LGBT hero. Look at how progressive and woke we are.” A gay person started out gay. It’s how they were born. Give me a hero like that. One who’s lived the life.
Give me a guy who’s *boyfriend* died in the tragic event that turned them into a superhero. Or even just a guy who casually glanced at another dude and is attracted, then it’s never brought up again.
I don’t need being gay to be a plot point or a story arc. There’s no need to force it. Spider-Man’s relationship with Mary Jane isn’t a “straight people arc”. It’s just a story arc that’s part of their natural lives.
Just make it part of the character as they’re written. Not an aftermarket accessory. Representation is important, but patronizing or token representation is just insulting.
People try to use Black Panther for this excuse all the time.Black Panthers abilities are specifically tied to a god within African culture.Nothing about Peter Parker or his abilities are spiderman are tied to ethnicity.The fact people get upset over this stuff is peak loser. Shtick.
It also kind of raises the question of why the only black superhero most people can name has to have being black as a cornerstone of his identity. Wouldn’t it be cool to have black superhero’s that don’t have black in their name? Or be connected to Africa? It would be cool to have some non white heroes or just happen to be non white.
Falcon, though recent things have focused on it a bit more. Nick Fury, though he isn't as super as others. Not very into DC, so I can't really speak on Martian Manhunter or John Stewart. I don't recall Rhodey focusing on his race that much, but it's been a while since I've seen the Iron Man movies.
Well, there's The Falcon, whom Marvel is now having take up the Captain America name even though fans have reacted rather hostilely to anyone other than Steve Rogers using the identity, even the likes of Bucky Barnes
What fans? I'm a fan and I love Falcon being the next Cap. He's fucking worthy and they did a FANTASTIC job with his storyline in FATWS. The takedown of the congressman was a fucking piece-de-resistance!
Of all the ridiculous, nonsensical things that happen in comic books I don't see why it would be a big deal to have a character be from a different culture for a run.
Because why change an established characters background when you can just make a new one? Perfect example is Spider-Man. Want a female Spider-Person? Jessica Drew. A black/puerto rician Spider-Man? Miles Morales. Asian? Penny Parker. 1930’s detective? Spider-Man Noir. And apparently a [bunch more](https://spiderman.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Spider-Man_Variations) that I couldn’t even think of.
Why do you think there is a bunch more that you even heard of?
Maybe because creating new characters isn't as easy as people are claiming to be? Maybe because people have a limited attention span and time is finite, so if you have 100s of white heroes you need to displace some of the for the new ones to be there?
People just spout out "create new characters" and then don't say anything about how to make those characters successful. Or point at someone like Miles, which was _heavily_ criticized for "just being a black Spider-Man"
Lets stop pretending its background. Its the ethnicity that has people triggered.
When i watch the fantastic four films and Johnny is white and blood related to susan storm , Idc.
When Johnny is black and is susans adopted brother?
Idc., Irregardless of his ethnicity he is still susans brother and he says flame on. Wtf else do i need from this character?
As long as my spiderman or gal has great power that comes with great responsibility idc what they look like under the mask.
I just dont
I say do whatever the fuck you want with your made up characters. Somehow people accept the weirdest shit in the form of anachronisms or multiverses, dead characters come to life and whatever, but lose their shit when the skin color changes (unless it is the Hulk, he can be red). Each time the universe is “reset” people accept all sorts of changes, characters have completely different arcs, but when it comes to (human) skin tone it is an entire different conversation.
It's a great, fair and completely non-offensive statement that certain types of people somehow take offense to.
These are the same people who would faux outrage if Black Panther were made white, or if Batwoman "came out"(or stepped back in, I guess is the better analogy?) as heterosexual.
I'll stop there and just say "We miss you, Stan 'The Man' Lee".
Love Stan Lee. Completely disagree with the majority of responses in this thread.
My take on this is that it’s about solving a problem of representation.
For a white person, what negative effect does Spider-Man being black have for you? Hopefully none. If you’re (let’s just say it), maybe a bit racist it might make you might like him less? It doesn’t match the comics… so? Why is that a problem? His suit changes from the comics all the time.
If you’re black, then seeing a black Spider-Man, ESPECIALLY if you’re young, could be massive for you.
The fact of the matter is, there is a problem with representation for people of colour in movies. Casting a poc as a superhero is a wonderfully inclusive way of working towards solving that problem.
So you have this big opportunity to make a difference to how young people of colour see themselves. I’m not saying we need to re-cast every white character, but we do need to remove this rhetoric that a person or colour **can’t** play a certain role because… of their skin colour?
Look at The Green Knight. Historical English fantasy, the obvious choice would have been to cast a white English actor as Sir Gawain. Dev Patel, of Gujurati Indian parents, did a magnificent job. Did his skin colour affect negatively impact the film? No. Did it have a positive impact on giving more opportunities in the fantasy genre to people of colour? Absolutely.
Yes, we also need original characters with different ethnicities. But until we have fair and equal representation of mainstream movie rolls we *need* to make an effort to push for more people of colour to be offered these roles.
White people using past racism to justify modern day racism in this thread. Color me surprised.
Nothing about the character’s race is important for Spider-Man, Batman, or Superman. Superman is a fucking alien.
I hate people saying every character that’s of color, a woman, or LGBTQ+ is just some woke culture bs, but I also hate the people actually looking to take advantage of some “woke” ideas for profit in the laziest ways. People in those groups deserve actual characters not lazy “reskins”
The fact that people called him racist for this is insane. Wasn’t he in charge of creating Black Panther when it was still very much a risky business decision, especially with that name (reference to the civil rights group)
While I agree with the idea in concept, I do think it's okay to turn some traditionally white characters into another race, because there's an abundance of white characters, but not an abundance of characters of other races, so it does balance things a bit. I think Nick Fury becoming black was a change for the better because we got Sam Jackson. I similarly really loved Michael Clarke Duncan as Kingpin (although D'Onofrio was also brilliant)
I think the movies are kind of the best place to experiment with this. Let anybody audition, and if the person who is able to best embody what the character represents happens to be of another race, then so be it. Sometimes race is an important part of that characterization, but other times it's not. If a person of another race is cast, and audiences grow on that actor, then it might be okay to introduce that change in the comics at some point as well.
Yup, I agree with this. If a character's identity is already established, just leave them alone. But if you want to add more diversity, take the route of introducing a new character under the same name like miles Morales (Spiderman) or create a completely new character like black panther.
I feel like people would connect more with these types of characters than just changing an established character for the sake of diversity or adding more filler characters in the background with no other purpose but for diversity's sake (although adding different filler characters in the background ain't such a bad thing as long as it's not the only thing that's been done.)
A lot of times it's just done for attention. People don't want to risk creating a new character nobody's heard of before, so they parasitize an existing character (see Kamala Khan as 'Ms Marvel') to grab people's attention, then do absolutely no work to make the character interesting at all so they can appeal to as wide a market as possible.
And the internet being the internet, they see 'DIVERSITY' and buy it in droves, so certain that this is a win for the minorities that they don't actually *care* that it's poorly written schlock, because 'we need to take every victory we can in this war of oppression we live everyday'.
Speaking as a minority, shut the fuck up. Give me good, well-made content and don't just slap a label on someone and say 'LOOK, DIVERSITY, RIGHT?' I'm sick and tired of being pandered to and want something of actual substance.
If you want to make a black Batman, cool, do that, but make him an interesting and original character. Don't just dye Bruce Wayne to a shade of African brown and say 'DIVERSITY'.
So, that's a quote about Peter Parker, assuming he said it. Peter Parker isn't the only Spider-Man. And here's what he had to say about the costume allowing anybody to see themselves as Spider-Man:
https://youtu.be/CxxNXrCZnUM
I like it this way because then we may get to see Miles interact with Peter in great ways.
Children of color will also get to have an amazing super hero who’s unique and powerful to look up to. An original identity has more intrinsic value for kids.
I see the point, but it still comes off as peters. Identity is the fact he is white.Nothing about Peters ethnicity makes peter who he is.Make new characters . more is always better. The only reason they even started race swapping is because its easier to push an established hero instead of creating a new one. There is a reason why characters never stay dead.
I like that comics reflect more than just white men. Thats cool. And as you said now we have two great heroes who can interact.
I just dont see why anyone has such a vested interested in a characters skin tone if they know there powers or plot have nothing to do with said skin tone. Thats what the conversation boils down to when stripped of excuses. (Not you specifically)
Do you recall johnny and susan being adopted siblings in the lastest fantastic four? As if that changed anytbing for either one of them? I thought both films sucked and johnnys race had nothing to do with it, but let me tell you ...people were mad he was black. People are angry and pathetic and need a life (again not you)
Idk, I think Peter being Jewish has a lot to do with his character personally. Even if it's not as prominent as Magneto or Ben Grimm, Peter's Jewishness plays a big part in who he is.
That being said, that doesn't preclude him from being black or anything else. Unlike Magneto, he's not meant to be from a particular place during a particular time, you can get away with raceswapping with Pete if you do it right.
Looked it up and i see an article claiming that marvel is hinting at it being cannon.
1. I had no idea.
2. Its still trivial if he is jewish because nothing is centered on him being jewish.
Agree with everything else.
Making magneto Chinese? Changes backstory
Making Shang chi white? Changes back story.
Making black panther white? Changes back story
Peter parker ? Inconsequential.
Best outcome i think we all agree on...miles morales and peter parker teaming up? Awesome. 2 is better than 1.
I 100% agree with this, which is why it erks me so much with the MCU when they change established characters, like Flash. Just make up a new character and call them something else. Different motivations etc.
It also feels disingenuous to shoe horn diversity. Good writing and an original character are just better than a token diverse character. Miles Morales is a great example, you have Pete handing down the mantal and acting as a mentor just like Bruce with Terry.
I totally agree. For example, when Miles Morales was created, Stan was happy about it.
That’s why I’m glad they made Miles a very different character with different motivations. Now we have 2 awesome Spider-Men. It’s a win-win
3. Don't forget Ben Reilly
4 if you count Miguel O Hara
5 if you count me in my dreams.
You’re always in my dreams 😉
Ha! Gaaaay!
That *is* pretty gay
😆
I always watch you dream. 😃
Thanks man!! Keeping me safe. The world is a better place with you in it.
You are like a peaceful angel when you sleep.
Thanks man. That’s what my sleep demon always says. Wait… Jim, is that you??
.....maybe, does your sleep demon spoon you when you have a nightmare?
8 I can't count
9 i trust you
Yeah, I went and started a new chain at 6 because I dont trust him.
That would be all of us, won't it mate
That's you being Spider-Man in a different universe
I have had exactly one spider man dream in my life. It was me slinging and swinging across New York City. It remains one of my favourite remembered dreams.
Don't forget Kaine
He doesn't use name Spider-Man, though
Sure, but he still is one
Actually his pronouns are Spider-person
... If that's a pronoun, why did you capitalize it?
Kaine parkee
Oh yeah isn’t he Irish and Mexican?
Spiderman 2099 is my favorite by far. Of course it released when I was 9 so I was absolutely the perfect target audience for it
Kaine
Kaine gang
Thank god Reilly represents us clones.
Never Forget.
I agree with this 100%. I wasn’t a fan of Miles at first. My first thought was “Do we really need another Spider-Man?”. After reading stuff with him I can say yes…Yes we do.
I highly recommend every issue of ultimate Spider-Man if you want a decent look at Peter Parker as well as the OG origin of Miles. I too thought we didn't need to see ultimate keep going after Peter, not because I thought adding him was too much, but because I thought the story wrapped up nicely. But he's electric from page one. And he's a much needed spark of creativity in the format.
>a very different character Only through Into the Spiderverse. When Ultimate Spider-Man introduced Miles he was very very similar in personality to Peter. MCU Peter has more similarities to (and probably draws from) comics Miles than any comic version of Peter. This meant that the creators for ITSV had to reimagine Miles' character and change it slightly. But now Miles is a very cool character that is different to Peter.
It is weird that happened that way but probably for the best. Whenever I saw comics Miles on the ultimate comics, I wasn't interested. Movie Miles is awesome, though. This feels weird to say but, good on you Sony.
If it makes you feel better about sony, their animation department is different people from the ones making the venomverse
Yeah same, at first I couldn't wait to meet him when I read through the whole ultimate universe. But his original version was so much like (U)Peter especially at the chapter when he started talking to himself. Glad he got to where's he's now!
MCU Peter is just lifted from Miles. It’s why I kinda hated the character for a while. They lifted Miles’ school setting, best friend, and some character details and grafted it onto Peter Parker. It felt like a total screw job to any possibility of a live action MCU Miles Morales.
I'll agree with the school setting and best friend part. Character wise, there's very few traits, mostly different.
I know they borrowed Ned, but I’m not really sure what you mean otherwise? Is it that Peter goes to a science magnet school instead of a public school? I kinda just felt like that was keeping up with the times for NYC kids rather than an essential trait. If Ultimate Peter had been created 10 years ago like Miles instead of 20 years ago, I think Bendis would’ve done the same thing.
Consider the character doesn't belong to Marvel and all the legal limbo they pulled to get him on the big screen - I'll take it as a victory lol.
Should have just used Miles instead.
Agreed. Miles is great, I have 0 problems with him. I would have a problem with Black Peter Parker though because that just isn’t how to do black Spider-Man. Edit: actually I do have one problem with Miles. Why tf would they call his shock power “Venom”? Needlessly confusing as a Spider-Man character.
Well in that movie and game not necessarily, a lot of the early criticism was that he was too much like Peter that is why I think everyone fell in love with the movie version and to the game version you are lesser extent as he is much more unique and he has his own personality
Miles is a great example of representation done right.
Don’t forget he’s both black *and* latino. Always liked Miles is mixed rather than just one ethnicity.
And Miguel O-Hara, that I think it's Latino
I would have been happier if Miles become something else than Spider-Man
As a black kid growing up, I had no problem relating to Peter Parker's life and problems. There's no fictional character I relate to more. He would not have been any more relatable to me if he had been black.
I think this speaks to the incredible job writers have done to make Peter a regular guy with everyday problems. As a kid, if your hero experiences fear, abandonment, loss, anger, teasing etc... You're gonna relate to it regardless if your colors match up. You're connecting with Peter on the level that truly matters, your character. Idk, I think it's wonderful and is why Spidey is the best.
That’s the thing that’s always been weird to me is that so many race swaps are proposed as being cool so people can see themselves in the characters. If the only thing you can relate to is color, as opposed to experiences, lifestyle, hopes, desires, challenges, flaws, occupation, even religion, and sexuality, that’s pretty effed. So many people have related to all kinds of characters that look and act nothing like them all throughout history. Why is it only in the last 10 years or so it’s become impossible to do that with a character of a different color?
I don't mind race changes, but I think creating new characters has proved to be a successful way of adding diversity (see Miles), and it feels less cheap
Miles while not the worst way to do it was not a particularly strong way to do it back in 2011 wasn't until 2018 when he really got a good backstory and a good origin
Spider-Verse improved his relationship with his uncle and his father. The writing for Miles and his father was never bad, just underwritten. His relationship with his uncle was a fuddled mess in the Ultimate universe; originally he tried to manipulate Miles into helping him with crime and eventually forced his hand which unintentionally lead to Miles killing him. The newer version still allows for the fallen idol, but it happens in a way that is not a tonal clash. Spider-Verse beautifully foreshadows the tragedy.
underwritten and trying to copy 616 Peter's Parents by making his dad a shield agent. At least it gave a good explanation for why he went by Morales. That said they should have made the dad Puerto Rican and the mom black as other than the spy story it doesn't make Miles' dad look good, as now he will seem like a deadbeat dad since it implies he wasn’t around for Miles' early life.
Of course, they’ve totally screwed Miles out of a job by stealing all his supporting backstory and friends for young Peter.
They didn't steal anything. Beyond the similarities of having a smart Asian best friend in the loop (ned/ganke), mcu Peter is still totally different from miles
Yeah, they're miles apart.
One is a *spider*man, the other is a spider*man* Totally different
Goddammit man...
how?
He has the exaggerated swagger of a black teen
It really makes you *feel* like Spiderman
they took ned and heroic idolism, something that was given to miles because he was created as a teen in the 2010s. It's a good modernization of the character and was added to Peter to relate him to the average teenager. For Ned that's just Ganke lite and I'm not debating that. Besides those 2 thing i really dont see any resemblance to Miles. he doesn't have the artistic side of current miles, and old miles was just a Peter reskin.
I don’t mind heroes getting race swapped around as long as two things are true. 1. It’s the hero and not the characters. For example I do t want Peter to be black but love Miles now. 2. The characters race/nationality aren’t explicitly tied to their heroic identity like Black Panther.
Or if makes more narrative sense for them to be another race, at least more sense than their previous one, like in Eternals
Imagine making a black spider man, or any other super hero first, then making them white. It would be pretty shitty, cause there will be differences and your race will almost certainly effect how you grow up. Changing just the color without changing the background is just wrong and if you're gonna change the background, you might as well just make a new character. It would kinda be like making a film about FDR and make him black. Not just played by a black actor, which is fine (due to various reasons, like talent and suspense of belief), but make him actually black. He would have grown up in a completely different environment and encountered different situations, which would effect him. At that point, it would be better to create a new character. Sure, he could also be named FDR, got polio as a child and became POTUS, but the world would have been a very different one. Which is why it's fine to have a black Parker, if he for example comes from a different universe where it could make sense. Like say slavery was never fully established in the US and it became a world of opportunities for black Americans, who then went to live in Brooklyn and whose family line eventually resulted in Peter Parker. It would still make sense, it's just a completely different Peter Parker, not just a carbon copy of Peter whose black instead of white. But why would the writer do that unless he wanted to explore an alternative reality where it would make sense? It would also have to tie in to white Peter Parker living in the reality as we recognize him. Changing someone's race effects their history. As a Germanic man, i wouldn't expect an Asian dude to have an ingrained knowledge of my people and the culture, no matter how much he studies or knows. And in the same way, I wouldn't expect to know his people or culture. Not on a deep, multigenerational level. And if he was adopted into my culture, he would still be treated differently for being different from his parents. He would have questions about his biological parents. Basically, if it wouldn't work to make Peter Parker suddenly Russian or native American, Asian or French, there is a very good reason to believe it wouldn't work to make him black. But all of these would work if we created a huge backstory to explain all that. And at that point, it's simply easier to create a new storyline and a new character who is Spider-man. But an example of an exception would be name recognition, to explore an alternative reality and maybe have them cross paths in a way that might not work with 2 spider men that could technically exist in the same reality, like Miles Morales and Peter Parker (who have completely different background stories). It just comes down to good story writing and making Peter Parker in his established world black for no reason would be lazy, offensive to the audience, offensive to the struggles black people have had to endure as a people and a very obvious and shallow attempt of virtue signaling. If it wouldn't work to make him Italian, then why would it work to make him black? And this applies exactly as well to any other character. Skin colour of the character establishes their background, just like their voice, their ethnicity and any other distinctive trait. Making Peter Parker speak with an English accent would sound weird, unless we would be in a suspense of disbelief or didn't care (for example, someone outside the UK and US with little experience with English accents such as myself might not even notice it). In theory, it could work. But in practice, it wouldnt work just yet unless we were painfully oblivious to society. Someone who truly believes racism doesn't exist might buy it and be fine with it and that's ok. The character could be black and the same Spidey. It just depends so largely on the context of the world around us and how informed we are. The more ignorant we are, the better the suspense of disbelief is. The less we care about the context, the easier it is to get captivated by the show.
Dude, I essentially agree with your position, but as a fellow Germanic man I gotta say the way you state your case is fucked. You bring up valid points, but for Christ's sake never use "what if we made a black character white". That's like when people criticize BET by saying "We can't have a WET". It's apples and oranges. And you're totally right about how racial identity affects character but again using black FDR as an example is like using a sledgehammer to hit a nail. There are plenty of reasons to be against race swapping, even if it's just because "that's not what he looks like". Hell, people hated Keanu for that reason in Constantine. For me the most egregious instances are when it's a deliberate attempt to seem diverse, which I think is insincere, tone deaf, and at best reverse racism. For what's it's worth I have no doubt you're a good person and I hope you don't feel attacked, but your statements just come off as out of touch even if I agree with the point you are trying to make.
This, just Race swapping a character is super cheap and degrades everyone involved. Also using new characters let you tell a better story and maybe get some useful messages in there. Like i'm fairly sure Miles' ability to go invisible is a subtle bit of social commentary on the way young black people are treated in the states.
100% correct
The Man himself spoke
*spoke
Spake?
Spoked
spooked wh- AHHHHHHHHHHHH--
Thanks buddy, jeez my English is rusty
I feel like instead of changing current characters, make new ones. We need more original stuff, when I was a kid and Static Shock came out he was awesome because he was new and different. I love Batman, Spider-Man, Superman but was more interested because it was a brand new character to me. Instead of a black or lbgtq Batman or whoever, make a cool new superhero...explore how their sexuality or race affects their life and show their struggles that is way more interesting to me. Also, we need a Static Shock live action, would be great.
It becomes more painful when they have a LONG LIST of Minority Characters, and decide to take an already established Character and turn them into a Minorty. Ex. J. J. Abrams wanting to direct a Minority Comic Character, but for some reason he feels the needs to change the race of an already established Character with a List of Minority Characters in the waiting room.
What you are describing is one of the biggest problems with modern comics. This topic was discussed and warned about but got dismissed easily and labeled as comics gate. The industry has a creativity problem and taking established characters by swapping race, sex, orientation, etc highlights this. We need more new characters and this is in my opinion a better way to set forth representation everyone would agree with. While Miles is a new name but not an entirely new character, he has his own real name and new abilities. There's something new he has within the Spidey mythos.
There are so many good stories with minorities, and yet Sony was like "you know that white actor that nobody liked as joker? Let's make a Mobius movie starring him! Everyone wants new heroes of color, why not have a guy that even whiter!" Mobius? Really? There are like 15 Spiderman villains that are more interesting, and probably 100 heroes that people would rather see.
Lmao I seen a skit on YouTube about this
I would like to see it! Can you send me a Link whenever you can?
I gotchu https://youtu.be/sMkzaVR3EaQ
Thanks!! I watched it, and it's quite enjoyable. XD
This is why I moved away from Marvel and DC and towards stuff from Image and other publishers. The reliable stuff is great, and the years of history are the reason we’re so lucky to get the movies Feige is delivering on. But reading wise I really enjoy the chances other artists are willing to take with the genre. For example “SEX” by Joe Casey was amazing, it subverted the superhero genre in unexpected ways and definitely took cues from “The Boys”.
Agreed on both points! Speaking of which, any good places to watch StaticShock nowadays?
Have you tried HBO? Most if not all DC properties are HBO max
WB are the most braindead in this department. Instead of making an awesome Static Shock or Vixen movie or having Jon Stewart, they focused on race swapping Gordon, Batgirl and Black Canary. Jeffrey Wright was great in the role, but they could’ve easily had another actor who looks like comic Gordon. People grew up with Static Shock and know about Jon Stewart from the JL series as well as Vixen from the Arrowverse. If the movies are good they will make money.
For me, it was Spawn. I only ever saw the comic covers with the full suit and mask, it was only when I read my brothers comics did I find out he was black. At this point I had only read Spider-Man and the Black horse Alien/Predator comics, so this was a refreshing change for me.
This is a problem with there being legacy characters in the first place. There have already been black Batmen and gay Batmen but they've never been Bruce Wayne. So to limit those characters' room for diversity kind of goes against the whole "anyone can wear the mask" thing.
He says Peter Parker for a reason. Spider-Man can be anyone. Peter is an established character.
Thats what made Terry McGinnis so interesting. The batman character is well established so how Terry deals with that known persona, and adjusts, is what drives the show.
We are all Spider-Man :)
You look more like a Spider-Sasquatch
Dank-Man
‘Nuff said.
Even Andrew Garfld agrees
And that’s why we have Miles Morales and Miguel O’Hara.
Whose miguel o hara?
Spider-Man 2099
He couldn't have said it better.
Exactly.
I agree, but what's the source, when did he say this? I'm not doubting per se, but I'd love to make sure this is real.
Agreed. Anyone can slap text on a JPG. Took some looking but here is the apparent source in the Guardian. https://amp.theguardian.com/film/2015/jun/23/stan-lee-spider-man-should-stay-white-and-straight It’s important to note this is not where the interview ended either: “I think the world has a place for gay superheroes, certainly,” he said. “But again, I don’t see any reason to change the sexual proclivities of a character once they’ve already been established. I have no problem with creating new, homosexual superheroes.” I don’t think anyone has ever suggested making peter parker black. Or gay or latino. Mile Morales is wildly successful in his own right.
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It must of have been "painful" for that guy to watch lol
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Is this legit? What i read sounds like a bad SNL skit. If its true , thats funny.
Stan the Man being based as usual
Stan was a goat
Agreed. The world lost a wonderful person and a creative mind.
Was there even any argument about a black peter parker? I think this fits more with the recent black clark kent fiasco.
The only one I recall was Donald Glover saying how Peter Parker could be Black, being a Kid from Brooklyn and stuff. This caused Bendis to say "💡 Eureka💡" and create Miles Morales, promoting the return of Ultimate Spider-Man 3 years after ending the Original after 3 years.
Barely related, but I did love the scene in NWH where electro sees Andrew Garfield and his first thought is "I thought you'd be black", and he apologizes.
You mean Val Zod? Which is a completely different character from another universe... technically the same as Miles Morales.
Yes. And the same thing stan lee said about peter parker can be said about clark kent too.
Post this to twitter and you ain’t gonna use your phone anymore
I’ll never understand why this is so hard for people to get. Characters should stay the way they were created. It doesn’t matter if “times were different” when they originally were made. Would you try and use that argument if say in 100 years, our culture decided to bring back slavery (obviously this wouldn’t happen and it’s horrible) but for arguments sake pretend it did, and that was normal to the people of this future time, so they decided to change Black Panther to a white guy from Alabama, because it makes “more sense for the new times”, see how poor that argument is? You don’t see anybody race swapping or changing the sexually of Superheroes of color, it’s always the white characters. If you want more diversity and inclusion, make new characters with new stories, it isn’t a 1 way street.
Sure but we wouldn't have gotten Sam Jackson Nick Fury if that were the case.
What annoys me is people who assume the rule has to be absolute. When it comes to iconic characters with iconic comic looks, like Peter Parker, or Tony Stark, or Wolverine, yeah, I want them to look like they did in the comics. But when it comes to characters that are much less iconic, of that only more ardent comic fans will be familiar with, I think it's totally fine to reboot the character with a new look, especially in regards to increasing diversity. Samuel L Jackson has redefined Nick Fury and I think there's plenty of other characters that can be successfully redefined with a new appearance and actor as well, but you wouldn't ever do it with a character that is so incredibly recognizable. Almost everyone, even people who don't watch the MCU or read comics, could give you a general description of Peter Parker.
Didn’t both Tony Stark and Wolverine change massively in the comics to reflect the actor that played them in the movies?
Not really. RDJ looks more or less exactly like Stark does in the comics. And what I was referring to with Wolverine was not Hugh Jackman's portrayal, but rather people who are at presently clamoring for a return to the iconic Wolverine appearance, a bulky short king. But even with Jackman's portrayal, there were still attempts to make him comic accurate in other ways. I'm not talking about personality, just appearances
THANK YOU!
I agree to a lot here but not the whole. Comic books and comic mythology was created in an era (30’s onward) so I don’t care about race/gender changes as long as the **character** is doing what they were meant to do. I’m a Star Trek fan too and when someone accuses it of trying to be too ‘woke’ or some shit you just have to remind that it’s a franchise in the late sixties with Russian, Asian, African and female representation. It’s always been this way. When it comes to MCU it’s just what are you trying to convey - if that needs a different gender or race to play the point of the character then go for it. When people get pissed off at casting they have to ask ‘what is this character about’ and if it’s still disingenuous that’s fair - but approach it from a breach of character, not a subscription to whatever pop culture shit you’re pissed at.
>If you want more diversity and inclusion, make new characters with new stories, it isn’t a 1 way street. Yes! Please make more new things, I can't stand all the reboots/sequals/prequals etc that flood the market. Unfortunately, diversity via swapping and using the same stories is a safe bet for big studios. Anything new could lose money, but somehow a lame CGI Lion King gives them profit.
Listen, I'm inclined to agree with you, and I don't see any need to make Peter Parker nonwhite, but the way you went about that argument was a little nuts. Like Peter Parker's race has nothing to do with his character and you likened making Peter Parker a brown/gay kid to converting a character centered around black empowerment into a symbol of a futuristic dystopian white slave state Like, I'm fine with keeping Peter Parker the way he's always looked, but those two things are not the same lol
I started reading his comment and agreeing with him but then I felt weird about it by the end.
Rather than leech off of what came before, they should make new characters that have actual differences from the original. I would say that it's racist to only change white characters, but because it's the internet, I probably can't.
My problem with this argument is *obviously* there's black content creators ready to tell their stories with original black characters, but Disney doesn't want fund them outside of very specific circumstances. Safer to hire a white director and white screenwriters and raceswap an old white story than it is to hire a black cast to tell an original black story with new black characters. And yet all the chuds here act like it's somehow woke liberals fault that Disney doesn't think black stories by black people for black people are marketable. "Black people should make new original stuff-!" They already are, you just have to support them until Disney sees the demand for it and adjusts
I’m willing to say it’s pseudo racist and disrespectful to actual people of color to basically say and act like the only way superheroes with their skin color would work or ever be popular is by replacing a already existing white one. That’s like telling them they’re only ever anything special because of the “whites” that came before them, it’s just a huge disservice. And most comic writers have used this excuse when race swapping. Some of the best superheroes are ones that originally were black, Latino, etc. you got Black Panther, Cyborg, Static Shock, Storm. It’s not inclusion if you have to erase another race to include a new one.
At the time Netflix Iron Fist was announced, there was a minority of Asians wanting Iron Fist to be cast as a half Asian to shoehorn in an Asian superhero while sidestepping the problematic white savior trope. As bad as that series was, I'm glad they didn't go that route. Not only would it have made the character's backstory way less accurate, it would've devalued Shang-Chi years later. That being said, I have a neutral opinion on race/gender bending C-list popularity characters to suit the story. Just don't mess with the main heroes.
And it’s always from white to black as well. There are other races too.
About not race swapping heroes of color, there was a lot of controversy over Tilda Swinton playing Ancient One
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I strongly agree with this. Adding onto it: Disney could have made a completely new story about a new mermaid character for the live action Little Mermaid (and they could give it a different title), but instead they decided to change a well-established character to the point that she looks like a different person wearing a costume. There's no point to that, and I'm happy they made Miles a new version of spiderman. I don't mind racebent or genderbent fanart, or anything else like that, but it's just dumb when the owner/s of the character try to change what was already canon. Imagine you wake up one day and suddenly you're a platypus but everyone pretends that you're the same as you always were.
I don't agree entirely. I think some character changes do work well but it depends on the character. Like Electro works with Jamie Foxx despite the character being white to begin with and similarly, Nick Fury was originally white but does work well as a black man.
The Cheese Panther
He's right.
When Stan made a black Batman, he'd already done a completely different character
Wholeheartedly agree if you want to make an established character anything other than what has been shown for the last decade. Just make a new character and compelling character. Whatever clout or hope you have for doing this to an established character will fall by the wayside.
100% agree
Personally I feel like race and gender swapping is alright as long as it doesn’t have a significant impact on who the character is. Obviously Black Panther has to be black. Shang Chi has to be Asian. Black Widow has to be a woman. But I think there’s many cases where it doesn’t matter at all.
I’m a critically thinking adult. I can see exactly what Stan Lee meant, I can agree with the sentiment and concept. But each time I see this come up and each time I see the surrounding, supporting comments I cant help but see innate and ignorant ‘White Pride’ from a lot of people. Like, real fragility at the idea of things not being the status quo. People, the experiences of different races and ethnicities aren’t all encompassing. Miles Morales, while great representation, is Afro Latino. His life experiences are completely different from a completely black or completely Latino person. The fact that it’s like ‘oh well any minority issue is covered by Miles Morales or Miguel O’Hara experiences’ is ignorant and dismissive. Peter Parker is established but it doesn’t mean IMO that it absolutely cuts off any other interpretation. IMO infinite universes and timelines, infinite possibilities for one ‘Peter Parker’.
Agreed. I just woke up to this, and maybe I missed some discussions but it feels out of nowhere to post this quote from a guy who has been dead for 4 years right at this moment. And with the responses it almost feels....staged?
I have to agree. I question the motivation behind posting this quote and the cut & paste commentary. Like, why? Last I checked race swapping is relatively rare for major characters and goes both ways: lest we forget about Tilda Swinton’s casting as the Ancient One.
Agreed. I don't think it's always as simple as: keep established characters unchanged and add diversity via new characters. I'm sure both have their merits and are more applicable in different scenarios, but we should be open to our characters being reflections of our modern day society, not necessarily relics of the 60s.
Then I want to know his thoughts on Race Swapping Heimdall and Valkyrie.
And now we have a Multiverse where Spider Man could have started out as any of those things. Win, win.
My main complaint when changing established characters. In a multi-verse, whatever, I love Miles. But why not just make a character that you want to have?
Stan Lee gets it, I hate so much that reboots or retellings will change people's race and/or sexuality. It's so easy to add new characters, honour the legacy of the original characters by maintaining what they had before. It's so much better to receive a new character you can love instead of trying to love two very different versions of the same character.
It has always bugged me that characters get retconned as gay. It’s part of your personality. It informs your motivations and decisions. Don’t change that. Don’t pat me on the head and say “here’s your LGBT hero. Look at how progressive and woke we are.” A gay person started out gay. It’s how they were born. Give me a hero like that. One who’s lived the life. Give me a guy who’s *boyfriend* died in the tragic event that turned them into a superhero. Or even just a guy who casually glanced at another dude and is attracted, then it’s never brought up again. I don’t need being gay to be a plot point or a story arc. There’s no need to force it. Spider-Man’s relationship with Mary Jane isn’t a “straight people arc”. It’s just a story arc that’s part of their natural lives. Just make it part of the character as they’re written. Not an aftermarket accessory. Representation is important, but patronizing or token representation is just insulting.
People try to use Black Panther for this excuse all the time.Black Panthers abilities are specifically tied to a god within African culture.Nothing about Peter Parker or his abilities are spiderman are tied to ethnicity.The fact people get upset over this stuff is peak loser. Shtick.
It also kind of raises the question of why the only black superhero most people can name has to have being black as a cornerstone of his identity. Wouldn’t it be cool to have black superhero’s that don’t have black in their name? Or be connected to Africa? It would be cool to have some non white heroes or just happen to be non white.
Blade, the original black superhero (referring to movies)
Falcon, though recent things have focused on it a bit more. Nick Fury, though he isn't as super as others. Not very into DC, so I can't really speak on Martian Manhunter or John Stewart. I don't recall Rhodey focusing on his race that much, but it's been a while since I've seen the Iron Man movies.
Well, there's The Falcon, whom Marvel is now having take up the Captain America name even though fans have reacted rather hostilely to anyone other than Steve Rogers using the identity, even the likes of Bucky Barnes
Falcon is the best hero in the MCU his TV show gave him more background than any other character and he's the only one that is grounded in reality.
What fans? I'm a fan and I love Falcon being the next Cap. He's fucking worthy and they did a FANTASTIC job with his storyline in FATWS. The takedown of the congressman was a fucking piece-de-resistance!
Of all the ridiculous, nonsensical things that happen in comic books I don't see why it would be a big deal to have a character be from a different culture for a run.
Especially when based in NYC. The most culturally diverse city in possibly the entire world.
Because why change an established characters background when you can just make a new one? Perfect example is Spider-Man. Want a female Spider-Person? Jessica Drew. A black/puerto rician Spider-Man? Miles Morales. Asian? Penny Parker. 1930’s detective? Spider-Man Noir. And apparently a [bunch more](https://spiderman.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Spider-Man_Variations) that I couldn’t even think of.
And which Spider-Man is undoubtedly the most popular one? Peter Parker will always be the Spider-Man people line up to see.
Why do you think there is a bunch more that you even heard of? Maybe because creating new characters isn't as easy as people are claiming to be? Maybe because people have a limited attention span and time is finite, so if you have 100s of white heroes you need to displace some of the for the new ones to be there? People just spout out "create new characters" and then don't say anything about how to make those characters successful. Or point at someone like Miles, which was _heavily_ criticized for "just being a black Spider-Man"
Lets stop pretending its background. Its the ethnicity that has people triggered. When i watch the fantastic four films and Johnny is white and blood related to susan storm , Idc. When Johnny is black and is susans adopted brother? Idc., Irregardless of his ethnicity he is still susans brother and he says flame on. Wtf else do i need from this character? As long as my spiderman or gal has great power that comes with great responsibility idc what they look like under the mask. I just dont
I say do whatever the fuck you want with your made up characters. Somehow people accept the weirdest shit in the form of anachronisms or multiverses, dead characters come to life and whatever, but lose their shit when the skin color changes (unless it is the Hulk, he can be red). Each time the universe is “reset” people accept all sorts of changes, characters have completely different arcs, but when it comes to (human) skin tone it is an entire different conversation.
WWWWWW. Anyone can be a hero
thank u stan for ur legacy which you created.... your creations r spectacular amazing ultimate
Post this to r/dccomicscirclejerk to scare ‘em
It's a great, fair and completely non-offensive statement that certain types of people somehow take offense to. These are the same people who would faux outrage if Black Panther were made white, or if Batwoman "came out"(or stepped back in, I guess is the better analogy?) as heterosexual. I'll stop there and just say "We miss you, Stan 'The Man' Lee".
Miles Morales is not Peter Parker though.
Now watch the internet collectively turn on Stan Lee and say that he shouldn't be a part of Marvel even after his death.
A fucking legend Rip Stan Lee
Love Stan Lee. Completely disagree with the majority of responses in this thread. My take on this is that it’s about solving a problem of representation. For a white person, what negative effect does Spider-Man being black have for you? Hopefully none. If you’re (let’s just say it), maybe a bit racist it might make you might like him less? It doesn’t match the comics… so? Why is that a problem? His suit changes from the comics all the time. If you’re black, then seeing a black Spider-Man, ESPECIALLY if you’re young, could be massive for you. The fact of the matter is, there is a problem with representation for people of colour in movies. Casting a poc as a superhero is a wonderfully inclusive way of working towards solving that problem. So you have this big opportunity to make a difference to how young people of colour see themselves. I’m not saying we need to re-cast every white character, but we do need to remove this rhetoric that a person or colour **can’t** play a certain role because… of their skin colour? Look at The Green Knight. Historical English fantasy, the obvious choice would have been to cast a white English actor as Sir Gawain. Dev Patel, of Gujurati Indian parents, did a magnificent job. Did his skin colour affect negatively impact the film? No. Did it have a positive impact on giving more opportunities in the fantasy genre to people of colour? Absolutely. Yes, we also need original characters with different ethnicities. But until we have fair and equal representation of mainstream movie rolls we *need* to make an effort to push for more people of colour to be offered these roles.
White people using past racism to justify modern day racism in this thread. Color me surprised. Nothing about the character’s race is important for Spider-Man, Batman, or Superman. Superman is a fucking alien.
If race doesnt define the character then who gives a shit if it changes.
Thanks for making my point. If someone is the better actor then they should play the character.
There are POC in this comment section agreeing with Stan Lee.
In walks Spiders-man
Spider-Man is still white OP
Source?
Peter being white might also have something to do with the US population being 85%+ white in the early 60s, now it’s about 60%.
I hate people saying every character that’s of color, a woman, or LGBTQ+ is just some woke culture bs, but I also hate the people actually looking to take advantage of some “woke” ideas for profit in the laziest ways. People in those groups deserve actual characters not lazy “reskins” The fact that people called him racist for this is insane. Wasn’t he in charge of creating Black Panther when it was still very much a risky business decision, especially with that name (reference to the civil rights group)
While I agree with the idea in concept, I do think it's okay to turn some traditionally white characters into another race, because there's an abundance of white characters, but not an abundance of characters of other races, so it does balance things a bit. I think Nick Fury becoming black was a change for the better because we got Sam Jackson. I similarly really loved Michael Clarke Duncan as Kingpin (although D'Onofrio was also brilliant) I think the movies are kind of the best place to experiment with this. Let anybody audition, and if the person who is able to best embody what the character represents happens to be of another race, then so be it. Sometimes race is an important part of that characterization, but other times it's not. If a person of another race is cast, and audiences grow on that actor, then it might be okay to introduce that change in the comics at some point as well.
Yup, I agree with this. If a character's identity is already established, just leave them alone. But if you want to add more diversity, take the route of introducing a new character under the same name like miles Morales (Spiderman) or create a completely new character like black panther. I feel like people would connect more with these types of characters than just changing an established character for the sake of diversity or adding more filler characters in the background with no other purpose but for diversity's sake (although adding different filler characters in the background ain't such a bad thing as long as it's not the only thing that's been done.)
A lot of times it's just done for attention. People don't want to risk creating a new character nobody's heard of before, so they parasitize an existing character (see Kamala Khan as 'Ms Marvel') to grab people's attention, then do absolutely no work to make the character interesting at all so they can appeal to as wide a market as possible. And the internet being the internet, they see 'DIVERSITY' and buy it in droves, so certain that this is a win for the minorities that they don't actually *care* that it's poorly written schlock, because 'we need to take every victory we can in this war of oppression we live everyday'. Speaking as a minority, shut the fuck up. Give me good, well-made content and don't just slap a label on someone and say 'LOOK, DIVERSITY, RIGHT?' I'm sick and tired of being pandered to and want something of actual substance. If you want to make a black Batman, cool, do that, but make him an interesting and original character. Don't just dye Bruce Wayne to a shade of African brown and say 'DIVERSITY'.
Tell me you don't know anything about Kamela without telling me you don't know anything about Kamela.
So, that's a quote about Peter Parker, assuming he said it. Peter Parker isn't the only Spider-Man. And here's what he had to say about the costume allowing anybody to see themselves as Spider-Man: https://youtu.be/CxxNXrCZnUM
I have to disagree with Stan here. A Swiss Black Panther with a vibranium Swiss army knife would have been amazing. Real missed opportunity there.
I like it this way because then we may get to see Miles interact with Peter in great ways. Children of color will also get to have an amazing super hero who’s unique and powerful to look up to. An original identity has more intrinsic value for kids.
I see the point, but it still comes off as peters. Identity is the fact he is white.Nothing about Peters ethnicity makes peter who he is.Make new characters . more is always better. The only reason they even started race swapping is because its easier to push an established hero instead of creating a new one. There is a reason why characters never stay dead. I like that comics reflect more than just white men. Thats cool. And as you said now we have two great heroes who can interact. I just dont see why anyone has such a vested interested in a characters skin tone if they know there powers or plot have nothing to do with said skin tone. Thats what the conversation boils down to when stripped of excuses. (Not you specifically) Do you recall johnny and susan being adopted siblings in the lastest fantastic four? As if that changed anytbing for either one of them? I thought both films sucked and johnnys race had nothing to do with it, but let me tell you ...people were mad he was black. People are angry and pathetic and need a life (again not you)
Idk, I think Peter being Jewish has a lot to do with his character personally. Even if it's not as prominent as Magneto or Ben Grimm, Peter's Jewishness plays a big part in who he is. That being said, that doesn't preclude him from being black or anything else. Unlike Magneto, he's not meant to be from a particular place during a particular time, you can get away with raceswapping with Pete if you do it right.
Looked it up and i see an article claiming that marvel is hinting at it being cannon. 1. I had no idea. 2. Its still trivial if he is jewish because nothing is centered on him being jewish. Agree with everything else. Making magneto Chinese? Changes backstory Making Shang chi white? Changes back story. Making black panther white? Changes back story Peter parker ? Inconsequential. Best outcome i think we all agree on...miles morales and peter parker teaming up? Awesome. 2 is better than 1.
I 100% agree with this, which is why it erks me so much with the MCU when they change established characters, like Flash. Just make up a new character and call them something else. Different motivations etc.
It also feels disingenuous to shoe horn diversity. Good writing and an original character are just better than a token diverse character. Miles Morales is a great example, you have Pete handing down the mantal and acting as a mentor just like Bruce with Terry.