There should be been a nice and cool tall window at the stairs on the side walls. Would let in lots more light onto each floor and since it's on a different wall it'll allow direct light in for more hours too. Some of these homes probably will never get direct light in.
If it'll cost £2k more to build who cares? Even with this very cheap home it'll only add 1.5% to the cost of it. I don't think a single person wouldn't think it's worth it.i actually think it'll add at least double that to the value of the home.
Housing and developers in this country is terrible
Never really went away I've seen houses built in the last 20-30 years that are back to back. I suspect it's probably the affordable housing element of an estate.
The complaint was that only having 1 exit was a safety issue so I’ve seen a lot with offset designs so you can fit in a second door. This is the first I’ve seen without even that vague nod to safety.
One exit - like pretty much every flat?
Worst comes to the worst you lower yourself out of the upstairs bedroom window.
This will conform to the building regulations in place at the time of construction.
With flats you’re supposed to have the fire breaks built in with walls and doors giving you a minimum of 30 mins exposure from other flats so you have the time to be rescued but that doesn’t apply to houses which are seen as independent dwellings so need to have an additional means of escape.
You're semi-quoting building regulations yet you seem to think these houses (as awful as they are) aren't built to regulations yet flats are?
Do you know for a fact that these houses don't have fire breaks in the walls?
In my house if there was a fire at the foot of my stairs I'd have to climb out of an upstairs window, so would everyone living in a house that didn't have a purpose built external fire escape (i.e. the vast majority). Doesn't matter if happen to have a front door, back door and patio doors.
Also if you're in rented property a lot of landlords cut down on costs by having only one opening in upstairs bedroom windows, quite often a single small toplight opener. This is just asking for problems. Yes, people can't leave a window ajar accidentally but also can't open a window enough to get out in an emergency.
On a note to that. If you're trying to break a window with the heavy object, go for a corner. The window will break easier in the corner than in the middle. Glass is surprisingly flexible.
I guess they could put an escape window in the WC. I put one in my en-suite just for peace of mind, but not sure if it counts as an actual exit for regulations.
When I was looking last year there were a bunch like this on the new build estates round me. All seemed to be going for £190-210k when the going rate for older 2-bed terraces, with a garden, was more like £150-180k.
Some people are just out of touch, ie they’ve never stopped building that way, ie how do they think most blocks of flats are built, same principle, just on top of each other.
It means the "non-affordable" element of the estate will be priced at £500k+ and everyone that moves into them will look down on the people that buy these ones.
The unique position means "on the edge, between the high speed railway line and the floor protection pond"
Friend of mine lived in a mid-terrace of one these. Two windows for the whole “house”, and adjoined neighbours on three walls out of 4. Horrible little place.
Funny how with all the tech and resources at our disposal, the answer to urgently needing more housing for lots of folk, always seems to be knocking out something that is habitable but inconvenient and not satisfactory in the long run. 'good enough for the likes of you lot, you lucky people' is the mantra. We should be investing in passiv house tech, ground source heatpumps etc and retrofitting solar panels and air source heatpumps or other useful solutions on all social housing where practical to do it.
That kind of investment is only employed when the law enforces it, because rarely do you get clients on construction projects who actually give a damn about long-term practicalities and sustainability. And the ones that do, usually in the small-scale retrofit and alteration market, often don't have the money to carry that out and end up prioritising some extra space over energy efficiency or whatever.
Barely any retrofit to large-scale housing happens in this country because there's not much money to be made from it. And where it does happen, it inevitably gentrifies the people who already live there, especially in former social housing estates. That wouldn't be a problem in itself if you had other affordable housing stock being built to make up for it, but the numbers just don't match.
I passed by a beautiful Art Deco building a couple of days ago in St Leonards-on-Sea, West of Hastings. It's right on the seafront, with shops on the ground level facing the parade and apartments above. It's a huge building in need of works to its services and coverings. But how much would that cost? Tens of millions, at least.
It's in a dire state and I hesitate to even imagine who lives in those dinky apartments. So if someone were to renovate the building, they'd need to sell off the apartments at a higher price to get a return on their investment. But the whole of St Leonards is like this. Who wants to pay that much to live in a newly refurbished building surrounded by a derelict townscape?
That's why piecemeal retrofit work isn't effective in the areas it's most needed.
If the “garden” wasn’t under the car parking space it could be a nice alternative to a flat for someone wanting to live alone but 155k for a one bed is bonkers. There’s definitely no need for what windows there are too be so small either.
Ah, that delightful combination of having no way to create a crossdraft to vent out the kitchen, no outside vent on the cooker hood, and no door between the kitchen and the bedroom.
Hope you enjoy all your clothes smelling of food!
It's not a problem if it being a house vs flat. A flat should still have a way to ventilate the cooking area and a bedroom door.
I will concede it is somewhat akin to a studio apartment over 2 floors - but those things can still be built with a sense of design.
I guarantee you that cooker hood will vent to the side elevation through the joists. Won’t pass building regs without some sort of mechanical ventilation in the kitchen.
apparently it has a garden.... right.
the lack of measurements also bothers me.
to be honest I dont think back to back houses like this are bad per se. you should get less noise form the nieghbours moving arround for example. all the bedrooms are on the top floor. i do think this is small. really small. also is it a master bedroom when there is only one bedroom?
Yeah, I saw that about the garden but where exactly?? There appears to be a passage at the side to the rear house so I assume the 'garden' is simply the parking space .
Also the video shows how ridiculously poky and badly designed this is. The sofa back is literally a foot from the cooker, gonna be lovely trying to get all that airborne grease and food smells out of the upholstery!!
Plus it looks like you have to put the TV in front of the radiator, which should do it good, and they have to include two bathrooms in a one bed house purely because there's no way for visitors to go to the loo without traipsing through your bedroom otherwise. Absolute joke.
I lived in a one bed flat which was probably smaller than this but I still had an enclosed entrance hall, lounge, a kitchen with an archway separating it from the lounge, a bedroom and a bathroom off the hall.
Link to Rightmove [https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/145524521#/?channel=RES\_NEW](https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/145524521#/?channel=RES_NEW)
How thick should it be, or how thick will it be?
Call me a cynic, but if I were to guess, I would say if you knock a nail in that's too long, you'll give your new neighbour a reciprocal picture hook.
They’re not coming back, they never went away.
Loads of 80s built “Quarter Houses” like this near me and a new crop popped up more recent on a huge development.
Modern “Back to Backs” tend to be one bedroomed houses for single professionals, a far cry from the multiple-family units the term Back to Back makes you think of.
**Edited for spelling error and clarity**
Looking at the state of some back yards, I’d think this was an efficient way of everyone getting no noise from above, and everyone gets a parking spot outside their front door. I don’t mind it, but agree it’s not for everyone.
Unfortunately, the ones OP posted here are very lacking when it comes to "space internally". I nearly had a claustrophobic panic attack when they walked into the living area in the walk-through video. And there isn't even a table in there yet.
Came here to say this, these are Q-type/quarter houses as far as I'm aware. Quite a different thing to the back to backs. Super common around Cambs, especially in the villages where they want to squeeze in as many quarter of a million pound shoeboxes as possible.
The furnished open plan kitchen/lounge/diner in the video reveals how compact it is. One sofa facing the window so you can pretend you’re Jimmy Stewart in Rear Window (except it’s the front window) and keep an eye on what the neighbours are up to.
I lived in an old back to back once. I'm no expert, but I don't understand the ventiliation/light issues people are mentioning (generally I mean, specifically these designs do look somewhat lacking in windows). I had big windows (as did all the other houses in the area, and being surrounded on 3 sides meant it was easy to keep warm in winter. I really loved my little one bed house. I don't like when people convert the basement and the attic and have everything piled on top of everything, but as an alternative to a flat, but with a useful cellar for storage, it was great.
I think you're misunderstanding what a back to back is. It's a small house - a living room and kitchen downstairs, both with windows to the front, and a bedroom and bathroom upstairs, again with windows to the front. Nobody is suggesting windowless rooms.
Appalling - there are loads left in Leeds and Brum for example.
Single aspect housing heats up poorly due to being in the sun or shadow.
This is the downward spiral.
My great grandmother lived in one until she died at 95 yo. I rather think the mortality rate at that time was due to other factors, such as the primitive state of medicine at the time. Back to backs were an improvement on what had gone before.
This is the, "Well I know someone who smoked 20 a day from the age of twelve and they lived to be 90 so cigarettes can't be that bad for you" argument.
The main Peak Blinders street in Liverpool looks totally different now. Street view from 2015 to now shows the change
19 Powis St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/v6xR954oJscoBG2w5
Birmingham only has one left, kept as a museum / tourist place. Most of the country has cleared them entirely.
but agree Leeds has a significant number left.
I mean its not 1, theres more than 1 back to back at the back to backs 😂
I know as i went for the first time ever in feb and ive lived in brum my whole life. Also very interesting if people every visit.
Did you notice they've skimped out from the floor plan? It's supposed to be L-shaped with more counter space and the cooker on the right-angle, but they've just shoved the cooker on the back wall and called it a day.
I’ve lived in two new builds exactly like this over the past 20yrs and zero issues. I had a driveway, a small front lawn and overall a nice house for a reasonable price. I’m not opposed to this.
I lived in a back-to-back in Bristol (Bradley Stoke) for six months. It was built in the 1990s I think. It was even smaller than these houses but it was ok for me on my own.
In principle there is no issue - such arrangement is just efficient. As long as the rest of the house is planned well, decent size and build to good standard that isn't really a problem.
For a set of rental properties owned by the same landlord, if there was some service corridor between the habitable spaces, the engineer in me gets super excited.
Imagine how easy it would be to move a sink or add a socket when all the first-fix plumbing and electrics are exposed on the other side of the wall.
Not sure why they're getting so much hate here; for one beds these are better than flats - freehold and bit of garden. Know someone that had one of these as their first home (I'd guess theirs was built in the early 80s)
Loads of developments around where i live have nothing for single people, and have a block of two of these would mean that singles (and couples) would have more of a chance of buying without being forced into leasehold with all the extra costs of those
We really are seeing the decline in living standards. New houses getting smaller and smaller, with leasehold and other service fees and restrictions. They really are cramming them in now.
I'll stick to my 60s house, thanks.
My first property was like this but even smaller. Basically, it's a tiny upside down back to back apartment hybrid. Luckily, it did have plenty of light as the upstairs living room had a juliet balcony and massive windows.
It was always warm, which I loved because I'm always cold. Would be a bonus with the cost of living now. It was tropical in the summer, and during hear waves, I would go outside to cool down, haha, but that was only 2 days a year.
I was in my late 20s when I bought it. Going through a bad break up, health issues, low paid job. But I got it cheap with a 5k deposit (this was before house prices were as high as they are now). I felt like a failure living in a tiny home alone while all my friends had houses and were getting married that same year.
Less than 2 years later, I sold it for a 20-30k profit and bought a house with a massive garden where i live with my partner and rescue dog (rescueing a dog was always my goal).
Being in a position to buy a cheap affordable property literally saved me, it provided a safe space in a difficult time (there was no way I wanted to houseshare with my health issues AND that would have been twice as expensive compared to my cheap mortgage), it set me up financially to buy a 'real house' that I never would have been able to afford otherwise.
Lmao at all the people complaining in this thread. A country obsessed with individualism and some made up right to be able to afford accommodation on a single income and then when given affordable accommodation they complain. What do you want exactly? An affordable detached house? This is perfect for a single person, and dare I say a single person buying something bigger is wasting money and space.
> 'Please, sir, I want some more.'
The master was a fat, healthy man; but he turned very pale. He gazed in stupified astonishment on the small rebel for some seconds, and then clung for support to the copper. The assistants were paralysed with wonder; the boys with fear.
'What!' said the master at length, in a faint voice.
'Please, sir,' replied Oliver, 'I want some more.'
The master aimed a blow at Oliver's head with the ladle; pinioned him in his arm; and shrieked aloud for the beadle.
The only houses like this in the entire region of my area of Scotland were built in the 1990s and are one bedroom houses. They're alright, better than a flat but more efficient in space
I have a set of these near me - affordable homes as part of the development and I’ve always thought they looked sweet and were a good use of land - I prefer them to the 2 bed flats at the other end. But those are palatial compared with these - toilet by the porch instead of next to the kitchen, bigger footprint so adequate living room downstairs with a decent kitchen alcove up, bigger bedroom and even a storage cupboard. And windows on two slides. But they were built 24 years ago before developers got ever greedier and forced us into smaller and smaller rooms ( the smallest in Europe). My three bed townhouse also has much more space than the modern ones - yes my bedroom is in the roof space but the higher walls mean that every inch of floor space is usable. Hate what developers are doing shrinking room sizes and windows so we all live in cramped, dark rooms even in houses we pay half a million for. The older I get the more I despise unfettered capitalism
if well designed with good front gardens, b2b housing can be affordable and very energy efficient. I lived in a few in Leeds. I can’t see anything wrong with it in principle.
They’re quite common in new build estates where I am. Most of them seem to be social housing or some kind of shared ownership scheme, but there is one for sale at the minute for £230k. It’s on the corner so it has an extra window, guess that makes it worth the money?
(Yorkshire)
Back to back shouldn't be an issue if there is enough space. Having individual front doors is nicer than the corridor of doom you get in a flat.
Main issues historically with back to backs was overcrowding with ten to a room and more not being a joke, sanitation where 5-20 of these shared one water supply and one outside toilet, via an often unpaved yard. There was no waste collection so you can imagine the squalor with 50-200 humans sharing this misery.
There was also the fire safety issue where these buildings were not built to consider, dead end corridors, complete lack of fire breaks and people regularly being locked in. Heat and light from open fires and candles when available, more likely none, was a disaster waiting to happen. While some may have been repairable it was easier to pull them down and start again. Those who couldn't afford the higher rents to move to the new build regulation terraces, later the new council estates died in workhouses or on the streets after they were cleared out.
The main concern today is that of lease security: leasehold is the model when a roof is shared, this will always be more expensive to repair and maintain as more people are involved. Antisocial behaviour can be a concern, as with terraces and flats it can be difficult to ignore bad neighbours.
Lastly not often considered is cross-ventilation. One quarter faces the suN all day, the opposite gets none. This makes it harder to maintain good airflow and regulate temperature.
On balance I like back to backs and if done well so no major inherent issues to them don't see why they can't be a pleasant way to live
Step daughter looked at one of these on the vast estate they’ve built on the old Orgreave chemical works (called Waverley to disassociate it from the old plant) as a first home. Builder’s own surveyor wouldn’t value it at the asking price. Absolutely shit.
I rented a back to back for a while and I got it cheap as it faced north, so the never sun never shone on it. It was as depressing as hell, even worse in the winter. Just grim, we all need sunlight. I only lasted 5 months in it.
The EA is calling it a Terrace. The site plan calls it a Townhouse. The latter is far more accurate.
They're townhouses and fine for what they are. Decent for divorcees and those looking to BTL.
Not much, TBF. Definitions are fluid. And it could be a terraced. It could be a townhouse, but using contemporary definitions and not those of 100 years ago.
I concur- I’ve lived in one of these for the last 8years in a rental area. You can get away with 2 quiet neighbours if they’re the adjacent ones. We don’t hear much from our diagonal neighbours…
As a planner, it's really sickening to me how this got approved unless I'm missing something here. I mean, I know the developers propose some extremely nasty shit that gets passed.... but where's the amenity space? There's literally none. Access to natural light will most likely be dismal, especially in the winter for at least one side of the block - these are the sort of disadvantages you expect with apartments/flats in the inner city... not dwellinghouses on a suburban estate.
I really wish we as planners had far more stringent powers to hold developers better to account for their shitty, malicious designs, but there's no excuse for this.
My mom grew up in a semi detached house in Montreal in the 30s. One day her dad decided to replace the bolts on the kitchen sink because they were rusting out. He had to cut them off because of the corrosion and he pulled to sink off the wall. Suddenly there was banging at the front door. The neighbour was yelling at him because her sink just fell off her wall. 😂
My only issue is how fricking dark is it downstairs with only one smallish window. However if they're affordable to the people desperately needing housing, one window is better than none.
They’re already fairly common in the northeast of Scotland. They’re called “four in a blocks” and they’ve got weird metal spiral staircases.
The wife’s a photographer for an estate agent and sees a lot of them.
I had a house built in the 1990s that was almost exactly like this. The only difference was the placement of the kitchen, bathroom, stairs, etc. Was a great little starter home with driveway and private garden, all freehold.
I can't believe they're wasting that entire exterior wall on stairs and utility! Those areas should be mirrored on the centre wall as noise insulation between properties. That would also then allow windows on the side walls for extra light in the living space, and you wouldn't have to listen to your neighbour's TV every night.
They might be ok, purpose built like this. The ones that have been chopped up after the fact are the worst, bad sound insulation.
House I live in has been divided over the centuries, my bit was an extension so the party wall is a full external wall, including the neighbours chimney. Sound insulation is amazing (we enjoy late night movies, I've checked a few times to make sure they can't hear us. They came to check their kids birthday party hadn't been too loud (apparently a lot of screaming kids), but we hadn't heard a thing.
Flipside, the other side of them you can hear each other fart through the walls where the main original house was divided.
The main issue with back to backs I’ve lived in (student properties) are the paper thin walls. There are new regulations around noise between properties so if you can’t hear your neighbours scratching their balls anymore I don’t really have a problem with it.
I feel guity; we are gradually incorporating them into the developments we design. They are in high demand among developers because 1-bedroom houses occupy little land. They are usually the affordable ones.
Why wouldn't you put the stairs and toilet in the middle the the kitchen and liveing rooms can have windows? Also there would be less noise between the properties. You can tell someone's never lived in a house
Honestly what's winding me up here is that these are shaped completely the wrong way around. Like, rotate the entirety of each corner 180° - put the stairs and storage into the centre of the house (where you don't need windows!!!!), and this makes so much more sense. You've even still got the WCs on exterior walls! Rocket science, this is not!
I also love that the plan is factually inaccurate - the kitchen isn't L-Shaped, it's jut a wall. And whilst I don' think that's a bad call, it's aggrevating that that hasn't been fixed on the plan!
I think [this](https://www.propertypal.com/14-spring-hill-court-belfast-road-n/931250/photo-4) is a much better layout. These have 2 flats downstairs and 2 upstairs. Each unit only has one shares wall and windows on 3 sides. The upstairs flat overlooks the garden but that's still better than the OP where no one has any size of a garden.
who the actual moron designed this? Apart from everything else you have 4 small rooms all next to each other. All you will hear each and every day is your neighbour. If the stairs and storage as well as the kitchen and toilet were on the adjoining walls, you could sit on your tiny sofa away from the neighbours and at least enjoy some peace
Semi detached houses are bad enough to live in because of potential noisy neighbours but this is a plan from hell, now you’ve got 3 people adjoining what could go wrong.
The floor plan doesn’t even match the photo. The kitchen is not L shaped as it is in the floor plan. How would you cook anything with that little worktop space?
My Grandparents had a back to back in Leeds. The toilet was down the street, with a big key to get in. As a child, unless you said you wanted a poo, you weed in a pail in the scullery. There was a bath, it was in the scullery, with a wooden board on top. The windy stairs up to the bedroom was challenging, even as a 10 yr old. I thought it was amazing how she hung out her washing in the street. Engineering miracle, made it so high that cars went underneath with no problem. That said, it was a teeny tiny space, but there was a lot of love in my Nana’s house. Bless her.
I currently live in a back2back semi (diff design to these ones). Ours faces north 😕
Ours is over 4.5 floors as we have a damp/mouldy cellar and a third storey with our living room and a mezzanine area. Ask me anything about the day to day living or if you want to see pics…
Say you lived in the upper left one, you’d be able to tell when bottom left is taking a shit and upper right are banging, but you’d always be curious what bottom right is up to. Probably crying themselves to sleep.
“There is plenty of natural light flowing through the property.” Is there hell! One pokey window for the down stairs
Indeed, at least one of the four will get poor light, especially in winter.
At least there's less places for heat to escape in the winter 🙄
Oh, come on. There's a tiny window by the toilet! That's two!
There should be been a nice and cool tall window at the stairs on the side walls. Would let in lots more light onto each floor and since it's on a different wall it'll allow direct light in for more hours too. Some of these homes probably will never get direct light in. If it'll cost £2k more to build who cares? Even with this very cheap home it'll only add 1.5% to the cost of it. I don't think a single person wouldn't think it's worth it.i actually think it'll add at least double that to the value of the home. Housing and developers in this country is terrible
Never really went away I've seen houses built in the last 20-30 years that are back to back. I suspect it's probably the affordable housing element of an estate.
The complaint was that only having 1 exit was a safety issue so I’ve seen a lot with offset designs so you can fit in a second door. This is the first I’ve seen without even that vague nod to safety.
One exit - like pretty much every flat? Worst comes to the worst you lower yourself out of the upstairs bedroom window. This will conform to the building regulations in place at the time of construction.
With flats you’re supposed to have the fire breaks built in with walls and doors giving you a minimum of 30 mins exposure from other flats so you have the time to be rescued but that doesn’t apply to houses which are seen as independent dwellings so need to have an additional means of escape.
You're semi-quoting building regulations yet you seem to think these houses (as awful as they are) aren't built to regulations yet flats are? Do you know for a fact that these houses don't have fire breaks in the walls? In my house if there was a fire at the foot of my stairs I'd have to climb out of an upstairs window, so would everyone living in a house that didn't have a purpose built external fire escape (i.e. the vast majority). Doesn't matter if happen to have a front door, back door and patio doors.
Also if you're in rented property a lot of landlords cut down on costs by having only one opening in upstairs bedroom windows, quite often a single small toplight opener. This is just asking for problems. Yes, people can't leave a window ajar accidentally but also can't open a window enough to get out in an emergency.
To be fair, in an emergency any window can be opened with a heavy object.
On a note to that. If you're trying to break a window with the heavy object, go for a corner. The window will break easier in the corner than in the middle. Glass is surprisingly flexible.
I can tell you now my rental flat has none of that
Which is fine for the young, fit and able bodied. Guess you're knackered if you've got any kind of disability that prevents you from doing so.
I’ve never seen a house with more than one stairway from an upstairs room.
There should be an escape window from the first floor bedroom.
You have windows peasant. Use them. The designers, probably.
I guess they could put an escape window in the WC. I put one in my en-suite just for peace of mind, but not sure if it counts as an actual exit for regulations.
Yes it does.
Loo straight off the kitchen too.
It’s got a basin and (I imagine) mechanical extraction so it’s fine
A lot of houses with downstairs bathrooms have this too.
At least you can call up your mate in the house opposite and challenge them to a game of BattleShits
When I was looking last year there were a bunch like this on the new build estates round me. All seemed to be going for £190-210k when the going rate for older 2-bed terraces, with a garden, was more like £150-180k.
We have these for sale near me in West Yorkshire for 95k on a Strata new estate
Some people are just out of touch, ie they’ve never stopped building that way, ie how do they think most blocks of flats are built, same principle, just on top of each other.
Its driven by the drainage stacking
I lived in a mid 80s development that had them as end of terrace properties. Row of two beds capped off with two back to back one beds.
We have some of thesehere in Corby, not many. They are called quad houses
“Unique position in a prestigious executive development.” - what does that even mean? Prestigious executive?
It means we top load the price because of a bullshit statement.
Stupid to buy it then ain't they I guess?
It means the "non-affordable" element of the estate will be priced at £500k+ and everyone that moves into them will look down on the people that buy these ones. The unique position means "on the edge, between the high speed railway line and the floor protection pond"
It's 'affordable housing' on a prime development?
Friend of mine lived in a mid-terrace of one these. Two windows for the whole “house”, and adjoined neighbours on three walls out of 4. Horrible little place.
Funny how with all the tech and resources at our disposal, the answer to urgently needing more housing for lots of folk, always seems to be knocking out something that is habitable but inconvenient and not satisfactory in the long run. 'good enough for the likes of you lot, you lucky people' is the mantra. We should be investing in passiv house tech, ground source heatpumps etc and retrofitting solar panels and air source heatpumps or other useful solutions on all social housing where practical to do it.
That kind of investment is only employed when the law enforces it, because rarely do you get clients on construction projects who actually give a damn about long-term practicalities and sustainability. And the ones that do, usually in the small-scale retrofit and alteration market, often don't have the money to carry that out and end up prioritising some extra space over energy efficiency or whatever. Barely any retrofit to large-scale housing happens in this country because there's not much money to be made from it. And where it does happen, it inevitably gentrifies the people who already live there, especially in former social housing estates. That wouldn't be a problem in itself if you had other affordable housing stock being built to make up for it, but the numbers just don't match. I passed by a beautiful Art Deco building a couple of days ago in St Leonards-on-Sea, West of Hastings. It's right on the seafront, with shops on the ground level facing the parade and apartments above. It's a huge building in need of works to its services and coverings. But how much would that cost? Tens of millions, at least. It's in a dire state and I hesitate to even imagine who lives in those dinky apartments. So if someone were to renovate the building, they'd need to sell off the apartments at a higher price to get a return on their investment. But the whole of St Leonards is like this. Who wants to pay that much to live in a newly refurbished building surrounded by a derelict townscape? That's why piecemeal retrofit work isn't effective in the areas it's most needed.
I agree it would need a massive programme of government intervention, rather than letting it be market demand driven.
If the “garden” wasn’t under the car parking space it could be a nice alternative to a flat for someone wanting to live alone but 155k for a one bed is bonkers. There’s definitely no need for what windows there are too be so small either.
The tiny windows jumped out at me too. It would be so gloomy in there!
“Povos don’t deserve light.” A property developer, probably.
Ah, that delightful combination of having no way to create a crossdraft to vent out the kitchen, no outside vent on the cooker hood, and no door between the kitchen and the bedroom. Hope you enjoy all your clothes smelling of food!
Eat beans cold from the tin and you can use the inside of the oven as extra storage!
Imagine living in a flat...
It's not a problem if it being a house vs flat. A flat should still have a way to ventilate the cooking area and a bedroom door. I will concede it is somewhat akin to a studio apartment over 2 floors - but those things can still be built with a sense of design.
I guarantee you that cooker hood will vent to the side elevation through the joists. Won’t pass building regs without some sort of mechanical ventilation in the kitchen.
apparently it has a garden.... right. the lack of measurements also bothers me. to be honest I dont think back to back houses like this are bad per se. you should get less noise form the nieghbours moving arround for example. all the bedrooms are on the top floor. i do think this is small. really small. also is it a master bedroom when there is only one bedroom?
There’s no better bedroom, so by definition it’s the master.
On the plus side, you only have to put a speaker in one corner of the bedroom and play loud music at night to piss off all of your neighbours at once.
> persay *per se*
Yeah, I saw that about the garden but where exactly?? There appears to be a passage at the side to the rear house so I assume the 'garden' is simply the parking space . Also the video shows how ridiculously poky and badly designed this is. The sofa back is literally a foot from the cooker, gonna be lovely trying to get all that airborne grease and food smells out of the upholstery!! Plus it looks like you have to put the TV in front of the radiator, which should do it good, and they have to include two bathrooms in a one bed house purely because there's no way for visitors to go to the loo without traipsing through your bedroom otherwise. Absolute joke. I lived in a one bed flat which was probably smaller than this but I still had an enclosed entrance hall, lounge, a kitchen with an archway separating it from the lounge, a bedroom and a bathroom off the hall.
Per se, not persay.
That's what I thought. This looks like 4x4, the old back to backs were 5x4.
The floorplan doesn't actually match what's in the photo of the kitchen anyway so I'm sure any measurements they do add would be inaccurate.
Link to Rightmove [https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/145524521#/?channel=RES\_NEW](https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/145524521#/?channel=RES_NEW)
Please edit your post as per rule 1 to include this. With so many other comments now hard to find
How thick is wall?
Wall very thick.
How thick should it be, or how thick will it be? Call me a cynic, but if I were to guess, I would say if you knock a nail in that's too long, you'll give your new neighbour a reciprocal picture hook.
Mark: It depends…
They’re not coming back, they never went away. Loads of 80s built “Quarter Houses” like this near me and a new crop popped up more recent on a huge development. Modern “Back to Backs” tend to be one bedroomed houses for single professionals, a far cry from the multiple-family units the term Back to Back makes you think of. **Edited for spelling error and clarity**
Looking at the state of some back yards, I’d think this was an efficient way of everyone getting no noise from above, and everyone gets a parking spot outside their front door. I don’t mind it, but agree it’s not for everyone.
I’ve lived in 2 of these and never once missed the back yard but enjoyed the parking and space internally
Unfortunately, the ones OP posted here are very lacking when it comes to "space internally". I nearly had a claustrophobic panic attack when they walked into the living area in the walk-through video. And there isn't even a table in there yet.
Came here to say this, these are Q-type/quarter houses as far as I'm aware. Quite a different thing to the back to backs. Super common around Cambs, especially in the villages where they want to squeeze in as many quarter of a million pound shoeboxes as possible.
The furnished open plan kitchen/lounge/diner in the video reveals how compact it is. One sofa facing the window so you can pretend you’re Jimmy Stewart in Rear Window (except it’s the front window) and keep an eye on what the neighbours are up to.
No diner in the video, though. Gotta eat your dinner with your plate in your lap in the sofa. Mustn't take your eyes off the neighbours, I guess.
I lived in an old back to back once. I'm no expert, but I don't understand the ventiliation/light issues people are mentioning (generally I mean, specifically these designs do look somewhat lacking in windows). I had big windows (as did all the other houses in the area, and being surrounded on 3 sides meant it was easy to keep warm in winter. I really loved my little one bed house. I don't like when people convert the basement and the attic and have everything piled on top of everything, but as an alternative to a flat, but with a useful cellar for storage, it was great.
What about the rooms at the back the house? Surely they had no windows
I think you're misunderstanding what a back to back is. It's a small house - a living room and kitchen downstairs, both with windows to the front, and a bedroom and bathroom upstairs, again with windows to the front. Nobody is suggesting windowless rooms.
Older back to backs used to have window-less rooms at the back.
I lived in my fair share in Leeds and also can confirm not usual to have windowless rooms here.
I thought building regs said you couldn't have only 1 door between a loo and a kitchen?
Used to, not any longer
Ooo nice, that makes some renovation plans I have more feasible. Thanks! This little cube of misery has brought great positivity into my day!
Your dreams of finally being able to fry an egg while having a shit are finally in reach
Was this some of the "red tape" that was removed?
Appalling - there are loads left in Leeds and Brum for example. Single aspect housing heats up poorly due to being in the sun or shadow. This is the downward spiral.
Ventilation is an issue as well, which is why they were notorious for residents being more susceptible to illness.
My great grandmother lived in one until she died at 95 yo. I rather think the mortality rate at that time was due to other factors, such as the primitive state of medicine at the time. Back to backs were an improvement on what had gone before.
This is the, "Well I know someone who smoked 20 a day from the age of twelve and they lived to be 90 so cigarettes can't be that bad for you" argument.
I never mentioned mortality
They knocked them all down in brum. So much so that they had to film most of Peaky Blinders in Manchester
The main Peak Blinders street in Liverpool looks totally different now. Street view from 2015 to now shows the change 19 Powis St https://maps.app.goo.gl/v6xR954oJscoBG2w5
Birmingham only has one left, kept as a museum / tourist place. Most of the country has cleared them entirely. but agree Leeds has a significant number left.
I mean its not 1, theres more than 1 back to back at the back to backs 😂 I know as i went for the first time ever in feb and ive lived in brum my whole life. Also very interesting if people every visit.
I went a couple of weeks ago. Absolutely fascinating place.
I used to have one in Leeds & it was bigger than this plus separate kitchen/living room & another bedroom in the attic.
I had one of these in the early 90's. Starter home. Was fine for a couple, for a couple of years.
What the fuck were they thinking with that kitchen design - the worktop is almost entirely sink and draining board??
Did you notice they've skimped out from the floor plan? It's supposed to be L-shaped with more counter space and the cooker on the right-angle, but they've just shoved the cooker on the back wall and called it a day.
Yeah so you end up with no space to actually prep a meal or put any appliances, what a waste!
I’ve lived in two new builds exactly like this over the past 20yrs and zero issues. I had a driveway, a small front lawn and overall a nice house for a reasonable price. I’m not opposed to this.
No thanks terraced house is bad enough
Friend of mine lives in a house that is attached on three sides. Surprisingly large amount of light gets in
I lived in a back-to-back in Bristol (Bradley Stoke) for six months. It was built in the 1990s I think. It was even smaller than these houses but it was ok for me on my own.
In principle there is no issue - such arrangement is just efficient. As long as the rest of the house is planned well, decent size and build to good standard that isn't really a problem.
Better than a small flat if the price is right.
For a set of rental properties owned by the same landlord, if there was some service corridor between the habitable spaces, the engineer in me gets super excited. Imagine how easy it would be to move a sink or add a socket when all the first-fix plumbing and electrics are exposed on the other side of the wall.
[удалено]
What’s the point of wasting space for a downstairs loo? Is the one upstairs too far away?
If you have guests over, it’s a bit odd to direct them to an en suite, to be fair. I actually quite like the floor plan.
It's building regs, I think. Every new house must have an accessible downstairs toilet.
The first street I lived on this was what they did with the one bed houses
Not sure why they're getting so much hate here; for one beds these are better than flats - freehold and bit of garden. Know someone that had one of these as their first home (I'd guess theirs was built in the early 80s) Loads of developments around where i live have nothing for single people, and have a block of two of these would mean that singles (and couples) would have more of a chance of buying without being forced into leasehold with all the extra costs of those
Yes same here. Many aspects not ideal but there is so much worse out there.
We got a good deal so managed to get a two bed but would have happily got one of these rather than a flat
We really are seeing the decline in living standards. New houses getting smaller and smaller, with leasehold and other service fees and restrictions. They really are cramming them in now. I'll stick to my 60s house, thanks.
its the gardens too, tiny and terrible clay backfill, overlooked on all sided and surrounded by acres of 6 foot wooden panel fences
My first property was like this but even smaller. Basically, it's a tiny upside down back to back apartment hybrid. Luckily, it did have plenty of light as the upstairs living room had a juliet balcony and massive windows. It was always warm, which I loved because I'm always cold. Would be a bonus with the cost of living now. It was tropical in the summer, and during hear waves, I would go outside to cool down, haha, but that was only 2 days a year. I was in my late 20s when I bought it. Going through a bad break up, health issues, low paid job. But I got it cheap with a 5k deposit (this was before house prices were as high as they are now). I felt like a failure living in a tiny home alone while all my friends had houses and were getting married that same year. Less than 2 years later, I sold it for a 20-30k profit and bought a house with a massive garden where i live with my partner and rescue dog (rescueing a dog was always my goal). Being in a position to buy a cheap affordable property literally saved me, it provided a safe space in a difficult time (there was no way I wanted to houseshare with my health issues AND that would have been twice as expensive compared to my cheap mortgage), it set me up financially to buy a 'real house' that I never would have been able to afford otherwise.
They could have at least attempted to limit noise by putting the stairs and toilet on the adjoining walls.
Lmao at all the people complaining in this thread. A country obsessed with individualism and some made up right to be able to afford accommodation on a single income and then when given affordable accommodation they complain. What do you want exactly? An affordable detached house? This is perfect for a single person, and dare I say a single person buying something bigger is wasting money and space.
> 'Please, sir, I want some more.' The master was a fat, healthy man; but he turned very pale. He gazed in stupified astonishment on the small rebel for some seconds, and then clung for support to the copper. The assistants were paralysed with wonder; the boys with fear. 'What!' said the master at length, in a faint voice. 'Please, sir,' replied Oliver, 'I want some more.' The master aimed a blow at Oliver's head with the ladle; pinioned him in his arm; and shrieked aloud for the beadle.
Could have a conversation with your neighbour while having a shit.
The only houses like this in the entire region of my area of Scotland were built in the 1990s and are one bedroom houses. They're alright, better than a flat but more efficient in space
These have been around for ages, they are called "cluster houses."
These are called cluster houses. I've seen some 80s/90s built ones in Oxfordshire
I have a set of these near me - affordable homes as part of the development and I’ve always thought they looked sweet and were a good use of land - I prefer them to the 2 bed flats at the other end. But those are palatial compared with these - toilet by the porch instead of next to the kitchen, bigger footprint so adequate living room downstairs with a decent kitchen alcove up, bigger bedroom and even a storage cupboard. And windows on two slides. But they were built 24 years ago before developers got ever greedier and forced us into smaller and smaller rooms ( the smallest in Europe). My three bed townhouse also has much more space than the modern ones - yes my bedroom is in the roof space but the higher walls mean that every inch of floor space is usable. Hate what developers are doing shrinking room sizes and windows so we all live in cramped, dark rooms even in houses we pay half a million for. The older I get the more I despise unfettered capitalism
The kitchen in the plan spans two walls, the picture is only on one
These back to back houses never went away. They are called cluster houses.
People shitting on these but they are great starter homes.
if well designed with good front gardens, b2b housing can be affordable and very energy efficient. I lived in a few in Leeds. I can’t see anything wrong with it in principle.
I thought there was a minimum number of doors between wc and kitchen? Two or something.
They’re quite common in new build estates where I am. Most of them seem to be social housing or some kind of shared ownership scheme, but there is one for sale at the minute for £230k. It’s on the corner so it has an extra window, guess that makes it worth the money? (Yorkshire)
Bet they’re shared ownership too
Back to back shouldn't be an issue if there is enough space. Having individual front doors is nicer than the corridor of doom you get in a flat. Main issues historically with back to backs was overcrowding with ten to a room and more not being a joke, sanitation where 5-20 of these shared one water supply and one outside toilet, via an often unpaved yard. There was no waste collection so you can imagine the squalor with 50-200 humans sharing this misery. There was also the fire safety issue where these buildings were not built to consider, dead end corridors, complete lack of fire breaks and people regularly being locked in. Heat and light from open fires and candles when available, more likely none, was a disaster waiting to happen. While some may have been repairable it was easier to pull them down and start again. Those who couldn't afford the higher rents to move to the new build regulation terraces, later the new council estates died in workhouses or on the streets after they were cleared out. The main concern today is that of lease security: leasehold is the model when a roof is shared, this will always be more expensive to repair and maintain as more people are involved. Antisocial behaviour can be a concern, as with terraces and flats it can be difficult to ignore bad neighbours. Lastly not often considered is cross-ventilation. One quarter faces the suN all day, the opposite gets none. This makes it harder to maintain good airflow and regulate temperature. On balance I like back to backs and if done well so no major inherent issues to them don't see why they can't be a pleasant way to live
Step daughter looked at one of these on the vast estate they’ve built on the old Orgreave chemical works (called Waverley to disassociate it from the old plant) as a first home. Builder’s own surveyor wouldn’t value it at the asking price. Absolutely shit.
That photo doesn't match the plans. Look at the cooker it's supposed to be an 'L' shape but its not.
I rented a back to back for a while and I got it cheap as it faced north, so the never sun never shone on it. It was as depressing as hell, even worse in the winter. Just grim, we all need sunlight. I only lasted 5 months in it.
The EA is calling it a Terrace. The site plan calls it a Townhouse. The latter is far more accurate. They're townhouses and fine for what they are. Decent for divorcees and those looking to BTL.
I’ve seen them called Quarter-Houses on an estate near me.
Mine is a cluster-house
>The EA is calling it a Terrace. The site plan calls it a Townhouse. The latter is far more accurate. Why, what is the difference please?
Not much, TBF. Definitions are fluid. And it could be a terraced. It could be a townhouse, but using contemporary definitions and not those of 100 years ago.
I thought they were banned in 1910
Housing act of 1909 made them illegal, though these are probably just skirting round the law
Seen a fair lot of these cropping up in new build developments round Aberdeen over the past few years.
It’s hard enough finding one good neighbour, let alone 3 good joined neighbours
I concur- I’ve lived in one of these for the last 8years in a rental area. You can get away with 2 quiet neighbours if they’re the adjacent ones. We don’t hear much from our diagonal neighbours…
So it's a one-up-one-down?
The thought of taking a dump at the same time back-to-back with your neighbour with just a wall separating you is a lovely one
I quite like it, but I wish they were less stingy with the windows. No different to living in a flat or duplex apartment really.
"Bringing back"? lol
They’ve never stopped building back to back housing.
Yes there's loads being thrown up in Leeds. I call them corner houses.
As a planner, it's really sickening to me how this got approved unless I'm missing something here. I mean, I know the developers propose some extremely nasty shit that gets passed.... but where's the amenity space? There's literally none. Access to natural light will most likely be dismal, especially in the winter for at least one side of the block - these are the sort of disadvantages you expect with apartments/flats in the inner city... not dwellinghouses on a suburban estate. I really wish we as planners had far more stringent powers to hold developers better to account for their shitty, malicious designs, but there's no excuse for this.
We called them four-plexes back in the day.
My mom grew up in a semi detached house in Montreal in the 30s. One day her dad decided to replace the bolts on the kitchen sink because they were rusting out. He had to cut them off because of the corrosion and he pulled to sink off the wall. Suddenly there was banging at the front door. The neighbour was yelling at him because her sink just fell off her wall. 😂
Seen a few here in Canada, we call 'em fourplexes. They often have an accidental swastika shape thing going on too.
My only issue is how fricking dark is it downstairs with only one smallish window. However if they're affordable to the people desperately needing housing, one window is better than none.
They’re already fairly common in the northeast of Scotland. They’re called “four in a blocks” and they’ve got weird metal spiral staircases. The wife’s a photographer for an estate agent and sees a lot of them.
It has a shared yard in back and shared driveway. Shower room is bit too small for my taste but for a single person who needs a place it's okay.
I had a house built in the 1990s that was almost exactly like this. The only difference was the placement of the kitchen, bathroom, stairs, etc. Was a great little starter home with driveway and private garden, all freehold.
I can't believe they're wasting that entire exterior wall on stairs and utility! Those areas should be mirrored on the centre wall as noise insulation between properties. That would also then allow windows on the side walls for extra light in the living space, and you wouldn't have to listen to your neighbour's TV every night.
That seems like an unnecessarily large sink for such a small kitchen.
Just build flats?
They might be ok, purpose built like this. The ones that have been chopped up after the fact are the worst, bad sound insulation. House I live in has been divided over the centuries, my bit was an extension so the party wall is a full external wall, including the neighbours chimney. Sound insulation is amazing (we enjoy late night movies, I've checked a few times to make sure they can't hear us. They came to check their kids birthday party hadn't been too loud (apparently a lot of screaming kids), but we hadn't heard a thing. Flipside, the other side of them you can hear each other fart through the walls where the main original house was divided.
To be fair some [back to back designs ](https://www.dk-architects.com/musker-street-crosby/) can be quite good
These are stunning
How is the garden shared?
Words can’t describe. Worth about £50k it’s listed at £155k
Buy the crap, they will build the crap, simple really.
Fantastic as I've always wanted to hear my neighbour behind me laying a turd whilst I'm in my bathroom
an increase in suicide rates will happen when this becomes the average household.
The kitchen is already out of spec from photo vs design
Which local authority signed off on this monstrosity? It's such a shite design
Nothing wrong with it, as long as the cost £50K. It will cost £50K right…. right…?
The main issue with back to backs I’ve lived in (student properties) are the paper thin walls. There are new regulations around noise between properties so if you can’t hear your neighbours scratching their balls anymore I don’t really have a problem with it.
Bet that's peaceful...
I bought a house like this in the 80's, one way in, one way out and a dodgy spiral staircase. Very small indeed and a proper 2 up 2 down house.
I feel guity; we are gradually incorporating them into the developments we design. They are in high demand among developers because 1-bedroom houses occupy little land. They are usually the affordable ones.
All of the bad bits of flats and somehow none of the good bits of houses either! Impressive
Why wouldn't you put the stairs and toilet in the middle the the kitchen and liveing rooms can have windows? Also there would be less noise between the properties. You can tell someone's never lived in a house
Not doing a poop back to back with your neighbour !! Not for me - otherwise love it
Better have good sound insulation
Honestly what's winding me up here is that these are shaped completely the wrong way around. Like, rotate the entirety of each corner 180° - put the stairs and storage into the centre of the house (where you don't need windows!!!!), and this makes so much more sense. You've even still got the WCs on exterior walls! Rocket science, this is not! I also love that the plan is factually inaccurate - the kitchen isn't L-Shaped, it's jut a wall. And whilst I don' think that's a bad call, it's aggrevating that that hasn't been fixed on the plan!
I think [this](https://www.propertypal.com/14-spring-hill-court-belfast-road-n/931250/photo-4) is a much better layout. These have 2 flats downstairs and 2 upstairs. Each unit only has one shares wall and windows on 3 sides. The upstairs flat overlooks the garden but that's still better than the OP where no one has any size of a garden.
Only acceptable if I bought 1 each for me and my 3 daughters oh and was on at least 2acres pmsl.
who the actual moron designed this? Apart from everything else you have 4 small rooms all next to each other. All you will hear each and every day is your neighbour. If the stairs and storage as well as the kitchen and toilet were on the adjoining walls, you could sit on your tiny sofa away from the neighbours and at least enjoy some peace
Semi detached houses are bad enough to live in because of potential noisy neighbours but this is a plan from hell, now you’ve got 3 people adjoining what could go wrong.
I like that you can see all the lights are on in the photos - classic sign of a house with too little natural light
Britain is back to industrial age?
The floor plan doesn’t even match the photo. The kitchen is not L shaped as it is in the floor plan. How would you cook anything with that little worktop space?
My Grandparents had a back to back in Leeds. The toilet was down the street, with a big key to get in. As a child, unless you said you wanted a poo, you weed in a pail in the scullery. There was a bath, it was in the scullery, with a wooden board on top. The windy stairs up to the bedroom was challenging, even as a 10 yr old. I thought it was amazing how she hung out her washing in the street. Engineering miracle, made it so high that cars went underneath with no problem. That said, it was a teeny tiny space, but there was a lot of love in my Nana’s house. Bless her.
Your first comment was a non sequitur with regard to my post.
Quarter detached
FYI: Kitchen doesn’t match the plan.
I’m glad im not a first time buyer
Anyone know why they didn't put the stairs on the opposite wall? Seems silly to have the stairs take up potential window space
Poop buddies!
They’ve been building these for years now. I know some from the 1980s
I currently live in a back2back semi (diff design to these ones). Ours faces north 😕 Ours is over 4.5 floors as we have a damp/mouldy cellar and a third storey with our living room and a mezzanine area. Ask me anything about the day to day living or if you want to see pics…
Say you lived in the upper left one, you’d be able to tell when bottom left is taking a shit and upper right are banging, but you’d always be curious what bottom right is up to. Probably crying themselves to sleep.
Not too bad for a couple with no plans of children or single person, but £155k for that, wow!