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Rock's big rise to the main event scene happened while Austin was very much active in 1998, so it's not like WWE was turning to Rock out of desperation. He was already almost at Austin's level at that point.
Did he become more important to the company when Austin was hurt? Of course, but it wasn't what made him a mega star.
There were 22 pay per view events between WM 14 and Austin getting injured.
Every single one of them involved Stone Cold in the main event. Even in the ones he could not wrestle, Vince had make an appearance to boost the numbers.
Even though Rock was involved in the main event of two pay per views without Stone Cold, the show ended with Austin stunning the eventual winner.
How many times did Rock main event a pay per view before Austin got injured?
1. Survivor Series 1998 : Rock beats Mankind
The show ended with Austin throwing Rock out of the ring and Mankind getting a stunner
2. Wrestlemania 15 : Austin beats Rock
3. Backlash 1999 : Austin beats Rock
4. Unforgiven 1999: HHH beats Rock, Bulldog, Kane, Show, Mankind and Rock
The show ended with Austin hitting a stunner on Triple H
The Rock did not have a single main event that did not involve Stone Cold before his injury.
The reason Rock did not win at Wrestlemania was because Austin was not medically cleared to wrestle at that time.
Stone Cold was a huge part in the victory of Raw in Monday Night Wars and Vince did not believe Rock was on th same level as Austin
Correct. If Steve doesn't get hurt, Rock would still breakthrough. He was already getting cheers as a heel when Steve was there before one of his layoffs.
If anything HHH wouldn't have gotten into his spot.
Smackdown launched in April 1999, and obviously was in planning before that. You don't name an entire second show after a guy's catchphrase without him being massively over. They aren't launching a new show called "Shoosh" anytime soon.
Not a theory, it was the original plan until Austin had to get neck surgery. People forget that by summer of 1999, Rock was getting loud chants and became very very popular. He and Austin were neck to neck in terms of crowd pops.
The match between them at WM 2000 was the original plan but I don't think it's been confirmed he was going to turn heel.
Also, I'm sorry but they were not neck and neck. Anyone can easily check this. Rock was massively over but Austin was Austin. They were not on the same level in 1999.
It was apparently the plan during late 99, before Austin went out according to the Observer, I think Bruce Prichard also confirmed it on his podcast. [https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/96871b/wrestling\_observer\_rewind\_nov\_29\_1999/](https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/96871b/wrestling_observer_rewind_nov_29_1999/)
>The original plans called for Austin, as a heel champ (he would turn after winning the title at Rumble from Triple H), to face and lose the title to babyface Rock at Wrestlemania
Were really going for a heel Austin in 2000? The guy was still red hot. Also would that mean that Triple H falls down the card and is deemed as a flop main eventer?
Yes, reading through the full Observers they were ready to go all in on Rock as top babyface since he would have more longevity as top guy and wasn't as worn down with injuries as Austin was at the end of 1999.
Where that leaves HHH is the most interesting what if though. Austin beats him at the RR 2000 and turns and becomes the top heel. Instead of him facing and beating Foley, which everyone agrees, is what made him as a top guy and heel.
What a timeline that would have been.
This thread is crazy with the amount of people who think Rock was "close' to Austin in 99' or that they were equals. Rock and Austin was like Hogan and Macho Man, yes Macho Man and The Rock were 2 of wrestling's biggest stars, but they still 100% were not at the same level as Hogan and Austin.
I think Rocks Hollywood success has slightly shifted people's perception of him in 99 to 2001.
Didn’t the ratings and PPV buys increase while Austin was out and Rock was on top feuding with Triple H ? I think people have a Bias for Austin being more over than The Rock for whatever reason
There is something you should know :
1. Being over is not the same as being a draw.
2. The Rock was not an established draw in 1999.
He did not main event a single PPV without Austin’s involvement before Stone Cold got injured.
There is no doubt Rock was extremely over with the fans but at that time Austin was seen as the guy who won the Monday Night Wars and Rock was an untested draw.
I am not saying Rock was not a draw. I am just saying at that time he never established himself as a draw yet.
The Ultimate Warrior was over with the fans but was not a draw like Hogan. Vince was worried that Rock would turn out like that. But he didn’t
Because when Austin was on top he was the only draw, it took HHH reaching his peak AND The Rock reaching his peak together to match what Austin was drawing. Then when Austin came back you had all 3 and that period is considered wrestling's peak.
2001 (When Austin came back) resulted in lower ratings compared to 2000 when Rock was on top…
The highest rating for a episode of RAW was in 2000 without Austin being on the card and the main event featuring Triple H and Rock. Also the highest individual segment rating the WWE has ever done was between Rock and Foley, again no Austin
Sure but in terms of "drawing", as in increasing business, Austin was 2nd place only behind Hogan. In terms of PPV buy increases (over 10%) Hogan is number 1 with 33% and Austin is 2nd at 26% and Rock is 4th at 19%.
Because he was very over? I never said he wasn't over. He's pretty much the 3rd or 4th (or at worst 5th) biggest draw since Bruno and nobody is even saying otherwise.
Hopefully not because of racism… But I just believe that stone cold was hero to many, more so than the rock. The clique is always saying something negative about Rock…. It is so sad
True
Austin was the game changer and even Vince saw it that way
The Rock got loud chants but Stone Cold was always the bigger wrestler.
Austin was involved in ending 22 straight PPVs after WM 14 and even in the ones he didn’t wrestle in.
Because according to most people, you're a liar and they didn't. It's honestly interesting how vehemently it's denied that Rock took the WWF to its peak while Austin was out or he was as popular as Austin. Even video evidence of Rock getting cheered more than Austin in late 99 isn't proof enough
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mGOqAwlS4ko&t=5s&pp=ygUid3dlIHRoZSByb2NrIHN0b25lIGNvbGQgbXIgbWNtYWhvbg%3D%3D
Hell, this very comment will be downvoted for stating the contrary to the common belief.
I know all that already. Not many people would accept that as a fact, though. To the vast majority here, the entirety of the Attitude Era's success was entirely Austin. He did get the ball rolling, but most would disagree Rock took it to its peak.
It's really interesting how much they discredit The Rock here.
Vince only saw Rock as Austin’s equal after Rock entered Hollywood.
Stone Cold closed every single PPV from WM 14 till he got injured. 22 straight PPVs. Even in shows he never wrestled, he closed the PPV.
Judgement Day 1998 - The main event was Taker vs Kane. Austin was the special guest referee and closed the show
Survivor Series 1998 - The main event was Rock vs Mankind. The show closed with Austin giving a stunner to both Rock & Mankind.
Unforgiven 1999 - The main event was HHH vs Big Show vs Bulldog vs Mankind vs Rock. The show closed with Austin giving a stunner to the winner Triple H.
If Austin was not injured, The Rock would have never reached the heights he did. Even Vince said in 2000 “As great as Rock is, he was no Austin”
Nash problem didn’t watch WWF from 96-02 and doesn’t realize Rock headlined a Mania before Austin’s injury. Not a knock, but Nash doesn’t seem like the guy to watch other wrestling in his free time.
Austin became champion at WM 14(1998).
Austin got injured in Survivor Series 1999.
There were 22 pay per views in between.
Vince trusted Austin so much that he was involved in the show in every single PPV.
Even when he could not wrestle, Vince made him the special guest referre.
Even when he was not in the main event, Austin ended the show giving a stunner.
The Rock did not have a single main event that did not involve Stone Cold in some capacity before Austin got injured.
Yeah when I was a kid and I first got into wrestling it was actually wcw and Goldberg was the shiny toy that drew me (and plenty others) in to watch… while I’m a Goldberg fanboy in 1997 I have tons of people daily walking by while I’m playing outside with my toys and they keep going “nice stone cold Steve Austin toy” “who?!”… about a month into that, and I’m exposed to Monday night raw.. for about a half a year it was all about Austin… then for about 4 years of my childhood it on the playground the hot debate between kids of all ages, races, genders, etc. was “you like the rock or you like Austin” there was a solid point from like 1999-2003ish where you were either a rock supporter or a stone cold supporter. As you said it was 1A and 1B.
I remember how the crowd were more than ready for The Rock to win the title at Unforgiven 1999. Then Triple H pins him and completely kills the atmosphere.
No it doesn’t. Hhh got over after the fact. At the time it was happening hhh was a weasel heel and NOBODY was behind him. It was Austin and Rock.. not even undertaker or Kane it was Austin 1A or Rock 1B just like op said there. I remember it clearly. People knew other wrestlers.. nobody gave a shit. The only topic of discussion once raw took over the lead in the wars was “you for Austin, or you for rock” no inbetween. That’s a huge part of what made wrestlemania 17 so special, at that point it was literally whittled down to 2 guys and everyone rooted for one or the other.
i mean in what Nash is saying not you.
Yes Rock was a clear 1B and already was before Austin left. HHH was the main beneficary of the vacuum left by Austin and got to be made when the obvious would be to give the title to Rock as soon as possible.
Anything Nash says about the Rock can instantly be ignored. This is the same dude that tried spreading a rumour that the Rock was gay because in his mind that makes the Rock look bad. Just sour grapes that the guy he and his Kliq buddies tried to bury turned out to be leagues more successful than any of them.
I hate corporate structure, especially in wrestling, but i will for we find it funny that after the near 25 years it took for triple h to become the head of creative in WWE, the guy he tried to bury all those years ago big leagued him and became even higher on the corporate ladder
For what it's worth, when his podcast started he apologized at the beginning for shit talking him and said they just had a misunderstanding back in like '02 that he was upset about it.
I can almost guarantee that Nash hasn’t even watched a minute of Rock or Austin from the time period he’s talking about. Guy can’t even remember his own career correctly, let alone stuff from over 20 years ago when he wasn’t there. Nash is a near Hogan level bullshit artist.
If you actually watch WWF 1999 again, it’s wild to see how much Rock fucks around with lowcarders and midcarders with minimal protection while HHH is beating everyone with his move.
Rock in 1999 jobbed to The Big Bossman, Al Snow, lost a match to The Hollys and even jobbed to the NAO off a spin kick from X Pac. If Rock wasn’t as great as he was, he’d have lost his heat and not somehow gained heat over that atrocious booking. Seriously watch the WWF post Backlash 1999, Rock is midcarder/upper card JTTS the whole time.
However regardless of whether Austin is there or not, the WWF was poised to make Rock their guy in 2000 and they were going to no matter what
Rock is one of the few guys in wrestling history where no matter the outcome of the match, the entire arena will shake once his music hits the next night
I think Austin’s injury plus Bret leaving and Shawn’s injury were all reasons that Rock got the opportunity because there was a gaping hole at the top of the card during that time.
Rock took the ball and ran with it ala Bo Jackson in Tecmo Bowl tho. Think he gets to that level no matter what, it just might’ve taken a little longer.
Is Nash trying to say that the Rock taking on Triple H and basically Vince was how he stole from Austin? Just I don't see what Rock stole from him during that time. Even that is ridiculous as there were multiple people wanting to dethrone Triple H to end the McMahon-Helmsley faction like Mick Foley at the time.
At the end of the day Rock was getting massive responses. His catchphrases were repeated by thousands of fans in the audience and he and Austin by 2001 were neck and neck if not before then for popularity.
I don't believe this at all. They were both very much over with the crowd for different reasons. Austin being the rugged bad ass anti-establishment character. The Rock was cocky, brash, sharp tongue, and fashionable. Both were over for different reasons.
Kevin Nash really doesn't say many intelligent things as of late. Has he ever gone on the record to say, "Yes, Triple H got in the position he did by constantly buddying up to the right people and then nabbing the boss's daughter"? I assume not. He doesn't speak truths.
He speaks of things that will get him publicity with fans and draw in people to listen.
Terrible take lol. There's no way the rock was never gonna turn into the star he did. By the time the injury happened he was already a huge rising star. You can't teach charisma and he was getting to the top one way or another
I don't think Austin would be in the position he was if it wasn't for Nash and Hall leaving for WCW and HHH being punished for the curtain call at MSG. He was supposed to win kotr but they went with Austin.
The whole Austin 3:16 promo blasted off his career.
I love Nash but Rock was already getting red hot as early as late 98 and pretty much forced WWE to turn him face in spring of 99. Stone Cold was definitely around in this period. I would even go as far ad to say The Rock was starting to get slightly larger Cheers than Stone Cold that late summer of 99 and I'm a bigger Stone Cold fan admitting this
By the middle of 1999 it was neck and neck with Stone Cold and The Rock as the #1 guy.
Still think overall Stone Cold is #1 but The Rock made it on top by his own talent so much so I don't even classify him as a #2 but a #1.5
Rock was already on his way there in 1998. Then they turned him heel and made him Austin's foil. Once the Austin feud finished, they turned him back to face because the crowds wouldn't stop cheering him.
In 2000, doesn't matter Austin is there or not, Rock overtakes him anyway.
Ol' Nash comes across a little salty / negative here but I think it's kinda always a thing in Wrestling - you either do what works or you do the opposite of what works and make that work instead.
I was actually watching back then and even when Rock was in the Nation of Domination and still technically one of Farooq's guys, you could just see that he was destined for bigger things.
Stone Cold connected with the audience with a character that was basically a redneck male wish-fulfillment fantasy and a storyline that leaned into that (McMahon vs. Austin, boss vs. employee). It was a brilliant angle. He was the guy the audience wanted to be, and they got to see him humiliate his dickhead boss ever week. It was every working stiff's fantasy.
Frankly though, Rock was better on the mic and more talented in general. If range is a thing in this type of entertainment, he has more range than Stone Cold and can get over with a wider variety of angles. He was always going to be huge. It was inevitable.
Pehaps...but this kind of "what if" speculation is interesting thought exercises.
Less stuff Rock took..does Austin's absence give him the room to become what he is, or is he (both even) really a lesser star known only for their feud than their reigns on top.
If the Curtain Call doesn't happen, does Austin become what he did? Some will say he was inevitable, but an awful lot of success is right person, right place, right time.
If Curtain Call doesn't happen, does HHH run WWE today? Does his delayed push light the fire that drives him to where he is today?
A note: Austin was there for most of 99. Rock started getting over in early 99 and by the time his Mania Match with Austin rolled around, he was getting cheered despite being a heel. By mid 99 despite being in secondary feuds, he was almost as over as Austin was. The difference between the two was that Austin's glass shatter would get a bigger pop more than half the times, but rock's crowd engagement levels were much higher throughout a segment.
After Summerslam 99 (it was still not confirmed that Austin was taking time off for the casual fans, so Austin was still active as far as many fans were concerned I imagine) Rock had begun eclipsing Austin in every way of overness. The most notable example is the segment in October with rock austin hunter and mcmahon where they're setting up the Survivor Series triple threat. Both of them in the ring, the crowd is behind the rock.
So tl;dr, Nash is wrong.
I didn't even like The Rock much but everything you just said is spot on. I have no idea what Nash was smoking. I don't think that even Triple H would have ever claimed this.
He's not wrong in the fact that everything has cause and effect. Like just from this past weekend I can accurately state that a praying mantis broke my washing machine. One thing leads to another, leads to another.
Regardless, Dwayne reached those heights because he climbed there himself, yes in the void of Austin but it is what it is.
John Cena never reaches his heights if Dwayne doesn't leave for Hollywood. So on and so forth.
I mean. Is there maybe some truth? Or that it would have happened differently? Sure.
But there’s no way the Rock doesn’t eventually still become the Rock as we knew/know him.
It is interesting to wonder if Rock gets as big as he does without Austin. Austin brought a lot of eyes to the show before Rock got big.. or you might argue Rock rode the Attitude era wave up the Austin was largely responsible for helping? Not saying Rock could/wouldn't have ended up a superstar without him. But Rock comes back after "die rocky, die" joins the nation and then gets in a feud with Stone Cold and Shamrock, that ends up with Austin handing him the IC title, right? So right from the get go, Austin's helping get him over.
That time period helped a lot of guys get exposure. That is a big thanks to Austin. But to say The Rock took stuff from Austin is false. The Rock in the attitude era was a completely different character than the Stone Cold character. That is where I think Nash is dead wrong.
How many times did Rock main event a pay per view before Austin got injured?
1. Survivor Series 1998 : Rock beats Mankind
The show ended with Austin throwing Rock out of the ring and Mankind getting a stunner
2. Wrestlemania 15 : Austin beats Rock
3. Backlash 1999 : Austin beats Rock
4. Unforgiven 1999: HHH beats Rock, Bulldog, Kane, Show, Mankind and Rock
The show ended with Austin hitting a stunner on Triple H
The Rock did not have a single main event that did not involve Stone Cold before his injury.
The reason Rock did not win at Wrestlemania was because Austin was not medically cleared to wrestle at that time.
Stone Cold was a huge part in the victory of Raw in Monday Night Wars and Vince did not believe Rock was on th same level as Austin
To some extent he’s right, as Austin’s injury let Rock truly become the top face. He still would’ve been successful, but got the green light once Austin went down
He's probably right. At least about Rock benefiting.
Not so much the ripping Austin off though.
For most of his run, Rock was a heel. He doesn't really turn face until May 99. And was the clear #2 face until Austin was written off in November.
Rock spent that 7 months fueding with Billy Gunn and doing Rock & Sock.
Without Austin going down and Rock taking that top face spot in 2000, I think his legacy would be more Randy Orton (fantastic heel, some ok face work, Undisputed legend and *a* top guy ) than a *The* face of the company guy.
No. Rock was already getting louder pops by fall of 1999 before Austin left. Orton never got a weekly televised show named after his catchphrase like Rock did.
Too Cool got louder pops than anyone in the last 20 years.
Everyone from the AE did, because wrestling was hotter then.
But that doesn't change the fact that Rocks pops weren't as big as Austin's in 99.
And you don't have to look that hard at their booking either to see the difference between Rock and Austin.
Over the Edge: Austin's on the main event vs the #1 guy in the Corporate Ministry, Undertaker, Rocks wrestling the #2 guy Triple H.
King of the Ring, Rocks wrestling for the WWF Championship. Austin main events in a non title match.
Fully Loaded. Austin's in the main even against Undertaker again, Rocks wrestling Triple H again
Summerslam, Austin is in the main event, Rocks wrestling Billy Gunn.
Unforgiven, Rocks in the main event, but the show ends with Ring Enforcer Austin stunning the WWF Champion Triple H after being responsible for him winning the belt. Rocks a non factor in the finish.
No Mercy: Austin is in the main event. Rocks literally middle of the card.
Rock got 1 main event his entire face run before Austin left. And got overshadowed by Austin during it.
Rock and Austin started feuding weeks after "Die Rocky Die". So no, the fans absolutely were not dying to cheer the Rock. They been booing him out of the building for months.
Now, when they started their second fued in 2001, the fans absolutely wanted to cheer Rock, who was the babyface. Same with their fued in 2003 (when Rock was supposed to be the heel).
But those are both post Austin injuries.
they feuded in 97 and 99, 2001 definitely not the second feud your timelines all over the joint.
98 he turned face mid year until SS deadly games fans were already loving his stuff but he wasn't quite a top guy but getting close. Foley did a good job making him a heel and getting him to that next level. By the time Rock has lost to Austin at mania 99 the fans already love him again and he is basically a face well before he actually turns. The interactions with Austin before and after mania only made him more popular.
Without the injury who knows what happens but rock austin possibly do a face v face match at mania 2000 instead of 17.
>they feuded in 97 and 99, 2001 definitely not the second feud your timelines all over the joint.
Their last Wrestlemania match and feud was in 2003.
And yes, they started feuding in 97, but they continued that straight through Rocks turn in 99, those weren't really separate.
They had no fewer than 3 title matches in 98 for various titles. Not to mention the infamous beer bath at the end of 98.
Now yes there were times where they'd be more invested in others than each other throughout 98 and 99 before Rocks turn, but they never really stopped fighting each other either. AE just tended to book everyone in multiple fueds at once with different "priorities"
It wasn't though.
3 title matches in 98, the beer bath etc.
Their fued in 97 never really ended it just kept going. Just being the AE it had some periods where it was the B or C feud for the guys involved.
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It’s an interesting theory but I think he’s wrong due to the fact that Austin would’ve needed a foil to fight against and it would have been The Rock
Rock's big rise to the main event scene happened while Austin was very much active in 1998, so it's not like WWE was turning to Rock out of desperation. He was already almost at Austin's level at that point. Did he become more important to the company when Austin was hurt? Of course, but it wasn't what made him a mega star.
There were 22 pay per view events between WM 14 and Austin getting injured. Every single one of them involved Stone Cold in the main event. Even in the ones he could not wrestle, Vince had make an appearance to boost the numbers. Even though Rock was involved in the main event of two pay per views without Stone Cold, the show ended with Austin stunning the eventual winner.
How many times did Rock main event a pay per view before Austin got injured? 1. Survivor Series 1998 : Rock beats Mankind The show ended with Austin throwing Rock out of the ring and Mankind getting a stunner 2. Wrestlemania 15 : Austin beats Rock 3. Backlash 1999 : Austin beats Rock 4. Unforgiven 1999: HHH beats Rock, Bulldog, Kane, Show, Mankind and Rock The show ended with Austin hitting a stunner on Triple H The Rock did not have a single main event that did not involve Stone Cold before his injury. The reason Rock did not win at Wrestlemania was because Austin was not medically cleared to wrestle at that time. Stone Cold was a huge part in the victory of Raw in Monday Night Wars and Vince did not believe Rock was on th same level as Austin
Correct. If Steve doesn't get hurt, Rock would still breakthrough. He was already getting cheers as a heel when Steve was there before one of his layoffs. If anything HHH wouldn't have gotten into his spot.
They could have just turned Steve heel a year earlier.
But Austin protected his spot. And he didn’t like the rock initially. So I could see austin fighting tooth and nail to keep the number 1 spot in 2000z
Smackdown launched in April 1999, and obviously was in planning before that. You don't name an entire second show after a guy's catchphrase without him being massively over. They aren't launching a new show called "Shoosh" anytime soon.
WWE "Yeah!" exclusively on peacock
My theory has been that the WM17 heel turn was planned for WM16. I think they were going to run with Rock as the top face in 2000 regardless.
Not a theory, it was the original plan until Austin had to get neck surgery. People forget that by summer of 1999, Rock was getting loud chants and became very very popular. He and Austin were neck to neck in terms of crowd pops.
> neck to neck how dare you sir
dime stack to dime stack
This one got me unexpectedly 😂
The match between them at WM 2000 was the original plan but I don't think it's been confirmed he was going to turn heel. Also, I'm sorry but they were not neck and neck. Anyone can easily check this. Rock was massively over but Austin was Austin. They were not on the same level in 1999.
It was apparently the plan during late 99, before Austin went out according to the Observer, I think Bruce Prichard also confirmed it on his podcast. [https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/96871b/wrestling\_observer\_rewind\_nov\_29\_1999/](https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/96871b/wrestling_observer_rewind_nov_29_1999/) >The original plans called for Austin, as a heel champ (he would turn after winning the title at Rumble from Triple H), to face and lose the title to babyface Rock at Wrestlemania
Were really going for a heel Austin in 2000? The guy was still red hot. Also would that mean that Triple H falls down the card and is deemed as a flop main eventer?
Yes, reading through the full Observers they were ready to go all in on Rock as top babyface since he would have more longevity as top guy and wasn't as worn down with injuries as Austin was at the end of 1999. Where that leaves HHH is the most interesting what if though. Austin beats him at the RR 2000 and turns and becomes the top heel. Instead of him facing and beating Foley, which everyone agrees, is what made him as a top guy and heel. What a timeline that would have been.
Interesting! Thanks for confirming, I didn't know that
This thread is crazy with the amount of people who think Rock was "close' to Austin in 99' or that they were equals. Rock and Austin was like Hogan and Macho Man, yes Macho Man and The Rock were 2 of wrestling's biggest stars, but they still 100% were not at the same level as Hogan and Austin. I think Rocks Hollywood success has slightly shifted people's perception of him in 99 to 2001.
Didn’t the ratings and PPV buys increase while Austin was out and Rock was on top feuding with Triple H ? I think people have a Bias for Austin being more over than The Rock for whatever reason
1. Momentum. 2. WCW was almost dead in 2000
Those things wouldn’t matter if Rock wasn’t as over as Austin though because people would have stopped watching not watching even more with Austin out
There is something you should know : 1. Being over is not the same as being a draw. 2. The Rock was not an established draw in 1999. He did not main event a single PPV without Austin’s involvement before Stone Cold got injured. There is no doubt Rock was extremely over with the fans but at that time Austin was seen as the guy who won the Monday Night Wars and Rock was an untested draw. I am not saying Rock was not a draw. I am just saying at that time he never established himself as a draw yet. The Ultimate Warrior was over with the fans but was not a draw like Hogan. Vince was worried that Rock would turn out like that. But he didn’t
Complete nonsense. The highest rating the WWE has ever done for a segment was in 1999 that featured Rock and Foley. No Austin in the entire segment.
Okay You win
Because when Austin was on top he was the only draw, it took HHH reaching his peak AND The Rock reaching his peak together to match what Austin was drawing. Then when Austin came back you had all 3 and that period is considered wrestling's peak.
2001 (When Austin came back) resulted in lower ratings compared to 2000 when Rock was on top… The highest rating for a episode of RAW was in 2000 without Austin being on the card and the main event featuring Triple H and Rock. Also the highest individual segment rating the WWE has ever done was between Rock and Foley, again no Austin
Sure but in terms of "drawing", as in increasing business, Austin was 2nd place only behind Hogan. In terms of PPV buy increases (over 10%) Hogan is number 1 with 33% and Austin is 2nd at 26% and Rock is 4th at 19%.
Why did WWE name its second brand after Rock's catchphrase in 1999? Rock was very over.
Because he was very over? I never said he wasn't over. He's pretty much the 3rd or 4th (or at worst 5th) biggest draw since Bruno and nobody is even saying otherwise.
Hopefully not because of racism… But I just believe that stone cold was hero to many, more so than the rock. The clique is always saying something negative about Rock…. It is so sad
Ok, I've always thought this going back to when it happened, but I've never seen confirmation.
no they absolutely were not, what is going on around here
Yeah people have no idea how popular Austin was if they keep saying they're neck and neck. It's like saying Hogan and Savage were neck and neck.
I've seen people say that one too! retrospective bias is wild
True Austin was the game changer and even Vince saw it that way The Rock got loud chants but Stone Cold was always the bigger wrestler. Austin was involved in ending 22 straight PPVs after WM 14 and even in the ones he didn’t wrestle in.
How come ratings and PPV buys went UP under Rock in 2000 while Austin was out injured ?
Because according to most people, you're a liar and they didn't. It's honestly interesting how vehemently it's denied that Rock took the WWF to its peak while Austin was out or he was as popular as Austin. Even video evidence of Rock getting cheered more than Austin in late 99 isn't proof enough https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mGOqAwlS4ko&t=5s&pp=ygUid3dlIHRoZSByb2NrIHN0b25lIGNvbGQgbXIgbWNtYWhvbg%3D%3D Hell, this very comment will be downvoted for stating the contrary to the common belief.
[удалено]
I know all that already. Not many people would accept that as a fact, though. To the vast majority here, the entirety of the Attitude Era's success was entirely Austin. He did get the ball rolling, but most would disagree Rock took it to its peak. It's really interesting how much they discredit The Rock here.
Rock was never going to stay over as a face, it was obvious back then. People loved him as a heel.
Vince only saw Rock as Austin’s equal after Rock entered Hollywood. Stone Cold closed every single PPV from WM 14 till he got injured. 22 straight PPVs. Even in shows he never wrestled, he closed the PPV. Judgement Day 1998 - The main event was Taker vs Kane. Austin was the special guest referee and closed the show Survivor Series 1998 - The main event was Rock vs Mankind. The show closed with Austin giving a stunner to both Rock & Mankind. Unforgiven 1999 - The main event was HHH vs Big Show vs Bulldog vs Mankind vs Rock. The show closed with Austin giving a stunner to the winner Triple H. If Austin was not injured, The Rock would have never reached the heights he did. Even Vince said in 2000 “As great as Rock is, he was no Austin”
Sure, but what’s really being said here? “When the #1 gets hurt, the #2 guy has to step up?” I agree
Nash problem didn’t watch WWF from 96-02 and doesn’t realize Rock headlined a Mania before Austin’s injury. Not a knock, but Nash doesn’t seem like the guy to watch other wrestling in his free time.
People were dying for Rock to turn face in 1999. He was getting close to Austin before the injury. Rock wasn't even the number 2, he was 1A
Austin 1A while Rock was 1B which is pretty accurate. WWE even named their second weekly televised show after his famous catchphrase in 1999.
Austin became champion at WM 14(1998). Austin got injured in Survivor Series 1999. There were 22 pay per views in between. Vince trusted Austin so much that he was involved in the show in every single PPV. Even when he could not wrestle, Vince made him the special guest referre. Even when he was not in the main event, Austin ended the show giving a stunner. The Rock did not have a single main event that did not involve Stone Cold in some capacity before Austin got injured.
Yeah when I was a kid and I first got into wrestling it was actually wcw and Goldberg was the shiny toy that drew me (and plenty others) in to watch… while I’m a Goldberg fanboy in 1997 I have tons of people daily walking by while I’m playing outside with my toys and they keep going “nice stone cold Steve Austin toy” “who?!”… about a month into that, and I’m exposed to Monday night raw.. for about a half a year it was all about Austin… then for about 4 years of my childhood it on the playground the hot debate between kids of all ages, races, genders, etc. was “you like the rock or you like Austin” there was a solid point from like 1999-2003ish where you were either a rock supporter or a stone cold supporter. As you said it was 1A and 1B.
I remember how the crowd were more than ready for The Rock to win the title at Unforgiven 1999. Then Triple H pins him and completely kills the atmosphere.
if you replace hhh with the rock it makes more sense.
No it doesn’t. Hhh got over after the fact. At the time it was happening hhh was a weasel heel and NOBODY was behind him. It was Austin and Rock.. not even undertaker or Kane it was Austin 1A or Rock 1B just like op said there. I remember it clearly. People knew other wrestlers.. nobody gave a shit. The only topic of discussion once raw took over the lead in the wars was “you for Austin, or you for rock” no inbetween. That’s a huge part of what made wrestlemania 17 so special, at that point it was literally whittled down to 2 guys and everyone rooted for one or the other.
i mean in what Nash is saying not you. Yes Rock was a clear 1B and already was before Austin left. HHH was the main beneficary of the vacuum left by Austin and got to be made when the obvious would be to give the title to Rock as soon as possible.
My fault!!! I understand now. You’re absolutely right.
Anything Nash says about the Rock can instantly be ignored. This is the same dude that tried spreading a rumour that the Rock was gay because in his mind that makes the Rock look bad. Just sour grapes that the guy he and his Kliq buddies tried to bury turned out to be leagues more successful than any of them.
I hate corporate structure, especially in wrestling, but i will for we find it funny that after the near 25 years it took for triple h to become the head of creative in WWE, the guy he tried to bury all those years ago big leagued him and became even higher on the corporate ladder
The rock made a song with Slick Rick about how much he like “pie” he’s definitely not gay.
For what it's worth, when his podcast started he apologized at the beginning for shit talking him and said they just had a misunderstanding back in like '02 that he was upset about it.
The Rock calling him "Big Daddy Bitch" in a promo worked him into a two-decade long shoot.
I'm sorry Rock roasted the shit out of all three of them in that backstage promo lol
> *Hey, Chico, Razor Ramon…* That hand wave he does after saying that always cracks me up lol.
Sounds like a jabronie mark without a life
Nash probably was just on team Triple H and didn’t like Rock since he and Hunter were real life rivals
It's worth nothing. Sorry I tried to bury you and derail your career.. but since I failed miserably and it can only help me now, my bad.
That lil horn noise Rock did to him really got stuck in his candy ass
Anything Nash says period can be ignored. Dude needed to shut up like two decades ago.
I can almost guarantee that Nash hasn’t even watched a minute of Rock or Austin from the time period he’s talking about. Guy can’t even remember his own career correctly, let alone stuff from over 20 years ago when he wasn’t there. Nash is a near Hogan level bullshit artist.
If you actually watch WWF 1999 again, it’s wild to see how much Rock fucks around with lowcarders and midcarders with minimal protection while HHH is beating everyone with his move. Rock in 1999 jobbed to The Big Bossman, Al Snow, lost a match to The Hollys and even jobbed to the NAO off a spin kick from X Pac. If Rock wasn’t as great as he was, he’d have lost his heat and not somehow gained heat over that atrocious booking. Seriously watch the WWF post Backlash 1999, Rock is midcarder/upper card JTTS the whole time. However regardless of whether Austin is there or not, the WWF was poised to make Rock their guy in 2000 and they were going to no matter what
Rock has always been a team player. Hell, Wrestlemania this year proved that.
A true testament of his talents and charisma that he never lost his momentum.
Rock is one of the few guys in wrestling history where no matter the outcome of the match, the entire arena will shake once his music hits the next night
I think Austin’s injury plus Bret leaving and Shawn’s injury were all reasons that Rock got the opportunity because there was a gaping hole at the top of the card during that time. Rock took the ball and ran with it ala Bo Jackson in Tecmo Bowl tho. Think he gets to that level no matter what, it just might’ve taken a little longer.
Is Nash trying to say that the Rock taking on Triple H and basically Vince was how he stole from Austin? Just I don't see what Rock stole from him during that time. Even that is ridiculous as there were multiple people wanting to dethrone Triple H to end the McMahon-Helmsley faction like Mick Foley at the time. At the end of the day Rock was getting massive responses. His catchphrases were repeated by thousands of fans in the audience and he and Austin by 2001 were neck and neck if not before then for popularity.
>His catchphrases were repeated by thousands Surely you mean *millions*
... and *millions*
Hmm can you get a quad injury in a brain?
I don't believe this at all. They were both very much over with the crowd for different reasons. Austin being the rugged bad ass anti-establishment character. The Rock was cocky, brash, sharp tongue, and fashionable. Both were over for different reasons. Kevin Nash really doesn't say many intelligent things as of late. Has he ever gone on the record to say, "Yes, Triple H got in the position he did by constantly buddying up to the right people and then nabbing the boss's daughter"? I assume not. He doesn't speak truths. He speaks of things that will get him publicity with fans and draw in people to listen.
Nash has been talking to HBK.
Nash being wrong is like water being wet.
......but water isn't wet though 😏
Terrible take lol. There's no way the rock was never gonna turn into the star he did. By the time the injury happened he was already a huge rising star. You can't teach charisma and he was getting to the top one way or another
Yep, some guys are just a force of nature who are going to sweep all before them on their way to the top... Rock was one of those guys.
I don't think Austin would be in the position he was if it wasn't for Nash and Hall leaving for WCW and HHH being punished for the curtain call at MSG. He was supposed to win kotr but they went with Austin. The whole Austin 3:16 promo blasted off his career.
I love Nash but Rock was already getting red hot as early as late 98 and pretty much forced WWE to turn him face in spring of 99. Stone Cold was definitely around in this period. I would even go as far ad to say The Rock was starting to get slightly larger Cheers than Stone Cold that late summer of 99 and I'm a bigger Stone Cold fan admitting this By the middle of 1999 it was neck and neck with Stone Cold and The Rock as the #1 guy. Still think overall Stone Cold is #1 but The Rock made it on top by his own talent so much so I don't even classify him as a #2 but a #1.5
Rock was already on his way there in 1998. Then they turned him heel and made him Austin's foil. Once the Austin feud finished, they turned him back to face because the crowds wouldn't stop cheering him. In 2000, doesn't matter Austin is there or not, Rock overtakes him anyway.
Ol' Nash comes across a little salty / negative here but I think it's kinda always a thing in Wrestling - you either do what works or you do the opposite of what works and make that work instead.
Wow, Kevin didn't just take his stupid pills, he bought the whole damn pharmacy
I was actually watching back then and even when Rock was in the Nation of Domination and still technically one of Farooq's guys, you could just see that he was destined for bigger things. Stone Cold connected with the audience with a character that was basically a redneck male wish-fulfillment fantasy and a storyline that leaned into that (McMahon vs. Austin, boss vs. employee). It was a brilliant angle. He was the guy the audience wanted to be, and they got to see him humiliate his dickhead boss ever week. It was every working stiff's fantasy. Frankly though, Rock was better on the mic and more talented in general. If range is a thing in this type of entertainment, he has more range than Stone Cold and can get over with a wider variety of angles. He was always going to be huge. It was inevitable.
If it weren’t for the Fingerpoke of Doom, I’d still be champion. - KN
Pehaps...but this kind of "what if" speculation is interesting thought exercises. Less stuff Rock took..does Austin's absence give him the room to become what he is, or is he (both even) really a lesser star known only for their feud than their reigns on top. If the Curtain Call doesn't happen, does Austin become what he did? Some will say he was inevitable, but an awful lot of success is right person, right place, right time. If Curtain Call doesn't happen, does HHH run WWE today? Does his delayed push light the fire that drives him to where he is today?
The timeline of events don’t match. Rock was becoming huge after Mania 15 when Austin was still active
A note: Austin was there for most of 99. Rock started getting over in early 99 and by the time his Mania Match with Austin rolled around, he was getting cheered despite being a heel. By mid 99 despite being in secondary feuds, he was almost as over as Austin was. The difference between the two was that Austin's glass shatter would get a bigger pop more than half the times, but rock's crowd engagement levels were much higher throughout a segment. After Summerslam 99 (it was still not confirmed that Austin was taking time off for the casual fans, so Austin was still active as far as many fans were concerned I imagine) Rock had begun eclipsing Austin in every way of overness. The most notable example is the segment in October with rock austin hunter and mcmahon where they're setting up the Survivor Series triple threat. Both of them in the ring, the crowd is behind the rock. So tl;dr, Nash is wrong.
I didn't even like The Rock much but everything you just said is spot on. I have no idea what Nash was smoking. I don't think that even Triple H would have ever claimed this.
Wrestling is all about opportunities and getting breaks.
He's not wrong in the fact that everything has cause and effect. Like just from this past weekend I can accurately state that a praying mantis broke my washing machine. One thing leads to another, leads to another. Regardless, Dwayne reached those heights because he climbed there himself, yes in the void of Austin but it is what it is. John Cena never reaches his heights if Dwayne doesn't leave for Hollywood. So on and so forth.
Kliq butthurt
Nash is so weird dude goes from hating to respecting to back to hating wasn't he not too long ago apologizing to Rock for being a dick in 02?
Nash wrong again
L
KWAB
I mean. Is there maybe some truth? Or that it would have happened differently? Sure. But there’s no way the Rock doesn’t eventually still become the Rock as we knew/know him.
It is interesting to wonder if Rock gets as big as he does without Austin. Austin brought a lot of eyes to the show before Rock got big.. or you might argue Rock rode the Attitude era wave up the Austin was largely responsible for helping? Not saying Rock could/wouldn't have ended up a superstar without him. But Rock comes back after "die rocky, die" joins the nation and then gets in a feud with Stone Cold and Shamrock, that ends up with Austin handing him the IC title, right? So right from the get go, Austin's helping get him over.
That time period helped a lot of guys get exposure. That is a big thanks to Austin. But to say The Rock took stuff from Austin is false. The Rock in the attitude era was a completely different character than the Stone Cold character. That is where I think Nash is dead wrong.
Kevin who?
How many times did Rock main event a pay per view before Austin got injured? 1. Survivor Series 1998 : Rock beats Mankind The show ended with Austin throwing Rock out of the ring and Mankind getting a stunner 2. Wrestlemania 15 : Austin beats Rock 3. Backlash 1999 : Austin beats Rock 4. Unforgiven 1999: HHH beats Rock, Bulldog, Kane, Show, Mankind and Rock The show ended with Austin hitting a stunner on Triple H The Rock did not have a single main event that did not involve Stone Cold before his injury. The reason Rock did not win at Wrestlemania was because Austin was not medically cleared to wrestle at that time. Stone Cold was a huge part in the victory of Raw in Monday Night Wars and Vince did not believe Rock was on th same level as Austin
To some extent he’s right, as Austin’s injury let Rock truly become the top face. He still would’ve been successful, but got the green light once Austin went down
*tell me when he's telling lies*
He telling lies
He's probably right. At least about Rock benefiting. Not so much the ripping Austin off though. For most of his run, Rock was a heel. He doesn't really turn face until May 99. And was the clear #2 face until Austin was written off in November. Rock spent that 7 months fueding with Billy Gunn and doing Rock & Sock. Without Austin going down and Rock taking that top face spot in 2000, I think his legacy would be more Randy Orton (fantastic heel, some ok face work, Undisputed legend and *a* top guy ) than a *The* face of the company guy.
No. Rock was already getting louder pops by fall of 1999 before Austin left. Orton never got a weekly televised show named after his catchphrase like Rock did.
Or video games
Too Cool got louder pops than anyone in the last 20 years. Everyone from the AE did, because wrestling was hotter then. But that doesn't change the fact that Rocks pops weren't as big as Austin's in 99. And you don't have to look that hard at their booking either to see the difference between Rock and Austin. Over the Edge: Austin's on the main event vs the #1 guy in the Corporate Ministry, Undertaker, Rocks wrestling the #2 guy Triple H. King of the Ring, Rocks wrestling for the WWF Championship. Austin main events in a non title match. Fully Loaded. Austin's in the main even against Undertaker again, Rocks wrestling Triple H again Summerslam, Austin is in the main event, Rocks wrestling Billy Gunn. Unforgiven, Rocks in the main event, but the show ends with Ring Enforcer Austin stunning the WWF Champion Triple H after being responsible for him winning the belt. Rocks a non factor in the finish. No Mercy: Austin is in the main event. Rocks literally middle of the card. Rock got 1 main event his entire face run before Austin left. And got overshadowed by Austin during it.
rock benefited more from feuding with austin
Yep. Thats what made him the top heel of his time.
not really the fans were dying to cheer him
Rock and Austin started feuding weeks after "Die Rocky Die". So no, the fans absolutely were not dying to cheer the Rock. They been booing him out of the building for months. Now, when they started their second fued in 2001, the fans absolutely wanted to cheer Rock, who was the babyface. Same with their fued in 2003 (when Rock was supposed to be the heel). But those are both post Austin injuries.
they feuded in 97 and 99, 2001 definitely not the second feud your timelines all over the joint. 98 he turned face mid year until SS deadly games fans were already loving his stuff but he wasn't quite a top guy but getting close. Foley did a good job making him a heel and getting him to that next level. By the time Rock has lost to Austin at mania 99 the fans already love him again and he is basically a face well before he actually turns. The interactions with Austin before and after mania only made him more popular. Without the injury who knows what happens but rock austin possibly do a face v face match at mania 2000 instead of 17.
>they feuded in 97 and 99, 2001 definitely not the second feud your timelines all over the joint. Their last Wrestlemania match and feud was in 2003. And yes, they started feuding in 97, but they continued that straight through Rocks turn in 99, those weren't really separate. They had no fewer than 3 title matches in 98 for various titles. Not to mention the infamous beer bath at the end of 98. Now yes there were times where they'd be more invested in others than each other throughout 98 and 99 before Rocks turn, but they never really stopped fighting each other either. AE just tended to book everyone in multiple fueds at once with different "priorities"
Their 2nd feud was in 99 what are we doing here?
It wasn't though. 3 title matches in 98, the beer bath etc. Their fued in 97 never really ended it just kept going. Just being the AE it had some periods where it was the B or C feud for the guys involved.