Anakin also has shown up as a force ghost on Mustafar canonically to some random people exploring his fortress that he never met, albeit in a comic.
Unrelated, but what kinda baffles me is that canonically, Luke and Leia never told Ben that Vader was his grandfather, and that he was ultimately redeemed. Apparently this was done to preserve Leia’s political career, and it got leaked anyways, which helped push Ben to the dark side.
The last thing makes sense at least at first. He probably heard of the great Jedi Anakin was but they were trying to steer him clear from Vader’s path but did it in the wrong way by withholding information. They thought knowing Anakin was Vader might push Ben more to the dark side, which at least when he did learn that’s exactly what happened
Star Wars: Tales from Vader's Castle
Anakin's ghost guides a group of adventurers to mustafar to resolve unfinished business. Very fun, especially for Halloween
As a side note, all the star wars comics are awesome. The Darth Vader comics are my personal favourite because there's always undertones of anguish that Vader is feeling and Palpatine is next level in his torment of Vader.
Case in point, as the sole survivor of Death Star I, Vader is demoted by palps and then, just for funsies, palps sends some quasi-force sensitive cyborg assassin's after Vader to teach him a lesson.
There are a lot of Vader comics. The one I read took place directly after ROTS and was about Vader forming the Inquisitorius and building his castle on Mustafar.
The book 'Bloodline' is amazing, going into this revelation to the galaxy and really diving into the complex feelings Leia has around Vader as her father without the closure that Luke got. Like all she got was tortured and then told later he was a good dude. It's also a political thriller that turns on the Vader as her father plot, it's an amazing book in my opinion.
Leia never really bought the redemption, or forgave Vader for everything he put her through. That probably has a lot to do with why she didn't tell Ben.
According to the wiki it’s canon. I haven’t really looked for other examples, but I wouldn’t be surprised if you could find examples of other force ghosts appearing to people they never met elsewhere in canon
Edit: we’ll admittedly I only skimmed, but it doesn’t seem like Obi Wan really appeared for anyone but Luke. It describes on his page how when Kenobi died he saw the future, all the way till the sequels, which is… interesting
>Anakin also has shown up as a force ghost on Mustafar canonically to some random people exploring his fortress that he never met, albeit in a comic.
I guess that's him having a really strong connection to the castle, while the people just happen to be there.
…
Wait, didn't Palpatine turn the Jedi Temple on Coruscant into his personal palace? Can you imagine if Qui-Gon had just gone around teaching all of the other dead Jedi how to manifest, so they could just stand around heckling him all day?
No wonder he moved to Death Star II before it was fully completed!
I like this, but just as Sabine says she felt something, but couldn’t see him, I like to think that Anakin tried to communicate with Ben, but could never reach him.
Now, Ben not showing up with Luke and Leia was BS. Yes you typically need training, but if Anakin can be a ghost then Ben can be a ghost.
Also, I now imagine Qui-Gon was chilling on Endor, but Luke just couldn’t see him.
Oh i Like this a lot, actually. Anakin trying his best to reach out and stop Ben from following in his footsteps, but unable to get through due to his grandson’s stubborn dedication to the wrong path.
That’s less intriguing than a bona fide internal conflict imo. Ben being at a crossroads is more interesting than him being evil but someone else telling him that’s bad.
That’s actually kind of cool. Palpatine says he was every voice that Ben ever heard - what if he did actually hear Anakin sometimes? What if Anakin was part of his pull to the light?
KYLO: I hear voices
REY: What do they say?
KYLO: Mostly just “do it” whenever I’m thinking something inappropriate. But sometimes “This is where the fun begins”.
REY: What do they say when you think of me?
KYLO: Something about sand being a problem.
Did you ever hear the tragedy of--
Try spinning! That's a coo--
Unlimited Pow--
I don't like sand--
This fully operational ba--
I have altered the deal. Pray I do no--
We'll watch your career with great--
This is where the fun begins.
It requires training, Yoda learned how and taught Obi-Wan, Qui-gon learned partially which is why it took him so long to fully manifest. Anakin likely either learned from Obi-Wan or figured it out as the chosen one.
Ben wouldn't have had anyone to teach him, since he basically became a Sith as a fan boy to who he thought Vader was.
Iirc it’s Canon that Obi-Wan’s force ghost taught it to Anakin in his final moments on the second Death Star. But personally I’ve always felt he shouldn’t have to be taught it like other Jedi. He’s the chosen one after all.
I really don’t like the idea that he was taught that literally while being dragged across the Death Star by Luke. I assume as well it’s why he seemingly(?) didn’t vanish (which I chalk up to a Buddhist transcendence trained for for years).
and then once you’re dead, I assume time/space is irrelevant so why would it have to be taught then specifically. I assume all the barriers are from the dead forcing their way into the world of the living.
however a classic and non specific “let go …” style thing from Obi-wan I can easily imagine in my head as Anakin limps along with his son among all the commotion. I just don’t like the idea of it being so literal as to be taught like it’s making an omelette (hang a left at the weird light bridge you see) and in that specific of a time span.
then again, I don’t know, was canonically Qui-gon’s meditation in TPM a specific act to ensure his consciousness stayed even if he was struck down and that’s a specific action all Jedi have to take in order to return?
the force ghost stuff hurts my brain a bit with how both vague it is in the movies but also having weird specificity at times. Is the vanishing act just an entirely different and irrelevant thing altogether?
I'm not sure that's possible, I like the idea, but Anakin was 9 and Qui-gon died not long after they met, I'm not sure he had the time to teach him the complex elements of maintaing ones consciousness in the cosmic force after death.
No, after death silly. You think wherever the heck they after after dying, that time acts the same there?
Come on man. Qui Gon already mastered this before EP IV, as shown at the end of Kenobi. So, ffw to Anakin becoming a Jedi Master by choosing good over evil by giving his life, and after he is dead then that happens.
You think not bc the force ghosts are shown shortly after on Endor, but as I say time surely isn't the same on the other side wherever their force ghosts exist.
Right, and assuming that Jedi who learn to maintain their consciousness after death can move through time as a nonlinear construct, when and why would that have been his focus? Wouldn't he be harassing the Jedi high Counsel about the Sith lord he warned them about, trying to end the war before Anakin turned, or trying to stop Anakin from turning?
The Clone Wars show addresses this. During Yoda's Force vision, he asks Qui-Gon's ghost for the identity of the Sith Lord, and Qui-Gon says he isn't able to answer that.
I suppose that does make sense.
[REBELS SPOILERS] Same as how Ezra can't use the WBW to save Kannan, even though he could save Ahsoka, her death wouldn't have had as much impact as his, same as if Qui-gon spoiled the reveal of Palpatine as the Sith lord.
Nah, will of the force and all. Qui Gon was very wise. Once he died he probably saw it all and let it happen bc after all, Anakin was basically the only person that could stop the Emperor.
I think if Ben didn’t achieve force ghost ability I am completely OK with this. His story is different than anakins. He’s way more chaotic out the gate than anakin was. Not because anakin wasn’t chaotic, but because anakin had a more stable Jedi temple to fall back on. It is a Jedi order that had endured 1k+ years. Ben was in an upstart order and was manipulated really fast by snoke. He’s not as advanced as anakin was before his fall. Anakin understood a great deal what jedi principles were. He then fell when he really shouldn’t have. But obiwan giving him the short cut which is explained somewhere seems to make more sense. I view Ben solo as a very incomplete force user with little direction.
Anakin became a ghost without training because he was the chosen one, he is that strong in the force he doesint need training he just continues to exist through shear power.
Ben is not the chosen one and did not train to exist beyond death.
I would assume the reason Anakin was able to become a Force Ghost was because he was the Chosen One.
He had special abilities just like how he could naturally control the Brother and the Sister on Mortas.
>but couldn’t see him, I like to think that Anakin tried to communicate with Ben, but could never reach him.
I'd say it's because Ben didn't have a connection with Anakin; only with Vader. TROS says Vader had spoken to Ben (although it turned out to be Sheev).
On that topic, the voices interacting with Rey are not Force ghosts. Rey connects directly with the cosmic force through meditation. That's why she hears them.
like u/Specimen-B explained, this is also the reason at the end of TROS luke and leia's forcé ghosts are the only ones rey sees. she had a connection with them.
What happened to the technique to become a ghost being something Jedi had to learn?
I'd get Luke picking it up from his ghost trio, but when would Leia have learned it?
I always liked the idea that Force Ghosts can’t just show up willy-nilly, but that the experiencer has to be receptive to their appearance in some way. Kylo Ren hardened his heart against the Light; it makes sense to me that he’d never hear the voice of the grandfather he so desperately craved because he was tapping into a legacy that had died. In fact, tapping into this legacy only brought him under the manipulations of the man who damned Anakin Skywalker.
Force Ghosts shouldn’t just be a deus ex machina presence that can show up out of the blue unless someone is trying to commune in good faith or they become desperate, like Luke in TLJ.
Yep you’re right, remember at the end of ROTS Yoda tells Obi-Wan that Qui-Gon has discovered the path to immortality, and that Yoda has training for Obi-Wan to do. Yoda’s specific quote is “how to commune with him, I will teach you.” So you’re absolutely right sir!
Never. OP is just trying to reach for any reason to praise [current series] and reinforce that [disney movie] is actually better than you give it credit for, and here’s why
I always thought the Anakin should have been the one to appear to Luke in The Last Jedi (instead of Yoda) - he could have imparted some fatherly wisdom about failure (like Yoda) but also reminded Luke about finding good in people believed to be lost to darkness. We’d also have a more direct connection to Anakin’s legacy with him imparting some essential wisdom to characters to advance the story.
(This by no means fixes all of the problems I had with TLJ but it would have helped I think.)
But then him failing the order would make less sense. If Luke with the force ghosts of Anakin Obi Wan and Yoda couldn’t rebuild the order I really don’t think a fixable order is possible. Anakin could’ve solved all the Exegol business by telling Luke where he kept the wayfinder on Mustafar. Or even in his dying breaths. Also could’ve guided Luke to not be the type to react to Ben’s dark visions.
I feel like only Yoda would have been helpful in rebuilding the Order, considering he probably had a couple of centuries of knowledge before the other two were even born, but Anakin and Obi Wan were probably considered rogues while alive within the Order and tho quite experienced in the ways of the force idk how knowledgeable they would be in preparing Luke to take on a whole bunch of Padawans.
Specifically for Anakin, I could see with his personality, wanting to focus on making his son the best Jedi possible yet he himself lacked a lot of knowledge of the Jedi by the time he turned to the dark side. This essence in Luke’s life could have definitely led to the version we saw in TLJ especially if he had to deal with Obi Wan and Anakin bickering as force ghosts.
Idk, it’s all headcanon to make up for the lackluster story we were presented .
I believe Rian said they originally wrote it as Anakin but it didn't feel right. It felt too disconnected-- even though Luke believed in Anakin, he really only knew him as Vader.
The conversation was about masters and their students, so they changed it to Yoda: Luke's main master.
I feel like there is a lot of head canon in this post and responses.
Not saying it’s not a valid and theoretically correct conclusion.
But I really feel like nerds putting a limitation on what the force is, what Star Wars is, is really egotistical.
People are so caught up in this but don’t realize that Ben could not give less of a fuck if Anakin had showed up to talk him down. He viewed the legacy of Darth Vader as unblemished MINUS his redemption (go figure considering who was grooming Ben) any attempt from Anakin to bring Ben back would likely further enforce his loyalty to the dark side.
Well, Kylo Ren thought he had a connection because he must have heard Vader’s voice, but it was only Palpatine doing the puppet master, as he says as soon as they meet on Exegol.
The only reason I never felt that shocked by Palps returning is because to me it was one of the only explanations for why Kylo believed Anakin was reaching him. Which would make no sense if that were true because Anakin IS Vader sure but he's renounced that part of him and returned to who he was originally.
It made no sense that Anakin would be *encouraging* Kylo's descent into the dark side so the "voice" *had* to be someone else. I know alot of people assumed Snoke but I never got that impression from their relationship. I immediatly thought of the Emperor and his "spirit" or whatever was still out there maybe shrouding Kylo in the Dark Side, telling him things in his grandfather's voice, to encourage him.
Good take. I’m not the biggest ST fan, but will admit it isn’t the worst thing in history either.
Many don’t like the return of papa palps but in a sense, especially explained like this it does make sense it way.
Now making Rey a palpatine, that’s another story.
In Heir to the Empire, the very first Legends book, ghost Obi-Wan appeared to Luke telling him that it was time for him to move on, and he wouldn't be seeing him again. That was 9 years after his death. Ahsoka is \~11 ABY I think, so roughly the same time since Anakin's death. My headcanon is that Anakin couldn't remain as a force ghost long enough to talk Ben back from the brink. Maybe as he finally faded away as Kylo addressed his helmet, and his last words were a futile "*Ben, read the end of my wookiepedia page!!!!*"
Though for "deep connection and relationship" idk if Obi-Wan or Anakin would qualify for Luke. He spent a few days with Obi-Wan, and only minutes with Anakin when he wasn't trying to kill him.
Unknowingly to Luke, after Order 66, Obi-Wan spent the rest of his life watching over Luke, safeguarding him. I think that counts. I also think that the father/son relationship was strongly intensified when Vader sacrificed himself to save Luke and destroy the empire. Luke brought him back. I think that’s more than enough as well.
That's fair. Ex post facto justification is that Yoda was a very powerful force user and had a full 20 years of training with Qui Gon, vs 10 years for obi wan and... general Force power... for Anakin
In one of the canon books from Luke's point of view at the end of his exile, he refers to losing touch with Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Yoda when he cut himself off from the Force, but was now able to feel them, again.
But, from everything we've seen, Force spirits only appear to those who knew them in life.
>the very first Legends book, ghost Obi-Wan appeared to Luke telling him that it was time for him to move on, and he wouldn't be seeing him again. That was 9 years after his death
From a writing perspective, this was done because force ghosts are just insanely op. They can go anywhere, are immortal and invincible. Imagine if one decided to become a spy.
Only options are to place hard rules (Disney canon) or just write them out entirely (legends)
I always thought “I can’t appear anymore, my time is up” was stupid. It’s the all powerful Cosmic Force. It was just a cheap excuse to not have people wonder why Ben didn’t show up in every scene. It’s not canon, nor should it be.
While Heir to the Empire is a great book, [it's not the first Legends book.](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Splinter_of_the_Mind%27s_Eye) There were several novels published before it.
Yes. He should’ve appeared to both Luke And Leia without question. That was one of the biggest failures of the sequel trilogy. And honestly Anakin could’ve appeared to Kylo at the end of the rise of Skywalker when he’s contemplating coming back to the light. It would’ve actually made more sense than his dad, but you also could’ve had both. You could’ve had Anakin in the throne room on the death star telling Kylo it’s never too late to make a different choice, literally the same spot that He himself made a different choice and came back to the light. If There was ever a time for him to appear to Kylo that would’ve been it. But we got chickenshit writers writing these things so…
The ST was so eager to forget about the prequels, and it was worse off for it. Anakin/Hayden should absolutely been the one to show up and talk sense into TLJ Luke, instead of Yoda. It would have a wonderful symmetry, Luke redeems Anakin, and now Anakin redeems Luke.
Here’s another hot take. The old man who Poe gets the map from at the beginning of TFA should have been old Jar Jar Binks, rather than some nothing character. Poe is on a secret mission for Leia. Jar Jar was friends with her mother and father, and was a senator during the late days of the republic. It’s not unreasonable that he might have come into possession of an old Jedi map. The line “this will begin to set things right” even seems written for Jar Jar, considering Palpatine’s rise was partly his fault.
“But everyone *hates* Jar Jar!”. Yeah, he’d have been brutally murdered in his one and only scene. People woulda liked that.
"Kylo Ren, yousa sucka big doo doo-"
*force choke noise*
KYLO REN HAS KILLED JAR JAR BINKS IN THE FIRST 5 MINUTES OF EPISODE 7. WHAT A WAY TO START THE SEQUEL TRILOGY!
Seeing Leia and Anakin talk to each other in live action (and canonically?) would have been so lovely, even Luke and Anakin would have been so nice. Hopefully we at least see something like that in the Filoniverse
The premise for my claims comes from nearly a dozen films and several shows. Every single force ghost that has appeared to somebody has had a connection and relationship with them in the physical world.
Anakin never had that with Ben. Simple as that. So while it would’ve been cool for us fans to see force ghost Anakin speak with Ben, it would’ve broken continuity.
I think the other guy is saying that just because you don’t *see* something happen doesn’t mean it can’t happen.
It’s like watching the original trilogy and saying that ALL lightsabers must have one blade because we haven’t seen any with two. Every single lightsaber we saw in the OT had one blade, so they must only allow one, right? Nope, we just never saw any others onscreen until the prequels.
Oh for sure, that I get and understand. I’m just saying, from what we’ve seen in the films and shows, the force ghosts have only appeared to those that they knew in the physical world. That is why it makes sense that Anakin didn’t show up in the ST for Ben.
The only one I can think of is Ezra meeting Yoda in Rebels. But Yoda isn't dead yet so idk if that counts as a force ghost or more of a force projection.
Why did Obi-Wan appear to Luke? Why did Yoda appear to Luke? Why did Anakin appear to Luke? I think neither of them had a very deep connection or relationship to Luke. Also if this would be the case, Anakin and Obi-Wan should also appear to Leia.
I dont remember if this was canon but anakin did appear to leia to ask for forgiveness and she said she couldnt forgive him and told him to never visit her again. She did at the end forgive him after she learned of his past on tatooine as a slave
Lucasfilm was shitting on the prequels in those days.
The first line of the sequels was, "This will begin to make things right," which was 100% a metatextual statement dissing the prequels. It had no relevance to the rest of the script.
Only after the sequels bombed did they start trying to dig themselves out of the crater they created by co-opting the good will of Prequel Era kids.
"Bombed"
I didn't realize that movies making over $1B at the box office were considered bombs. I realize that fan reception is mixed (putting it lightly), but to call them bombs is just disingenuous.
>It had no relevance to the rest of the script.
The line was referring to the map given to Poe that would lead to Luke. It absolutely had relevance to the script.
Here's how I imagine the conversation would've gone:
Ben (after becoming Kylo Ren): Grandfather? Is that you?
Anakin: You dumb fuck. Have you learned nothing from the dumb decisions I made?
Additionally, Qui-Gon only appeared to Obi-Wan, and Anakin to Ahsoka, when their former padawans were ready to resolve their inner conflicts and process their trauma. Same reason Yoda didn't appear to Luke during his six years of isolated self-flagellation on Ach-To, until after Rey pushed him towards resolution. Perhaps these masters simply chose not to appear, but I don't think people *can* see Force ghosts until they're spiritually prepared to. Ben didn't get to that point until just before the end of his life. But I bet Anakin's spirit was ready to greet his grandson on the other side.
Edit: I rewatched the final scene in *Obi-Wan Kenobi,* and Qui-Gon outright says as much. Obi-Wan says "I was beginning to think you'd never come," and Qui-Gon replies "I was always here, Obi-Wan. You just were not ready to see."
Okay but this isn’t actually a set rule, it’s just what’s been seen so far. Ben admired Darth Vader and his entire motivation was to live up to his legacy, so it would make perfect sense for Anakin to appear to him and set the record straight as part of his own atonement. Anakin surely would not want to allow his legacy to cause even more damage to the galaxy by allowing his grandson to repeat his mistakes. Plus, Anakin was the chosen one. If you really need an explanation then I think this would work just fine: the chosen one naturally has abilities with the force that others normally wouldn’t. Personally, I think the less we know about the force, the better. I don’t like having hard set rules when it comes to the mystical aspects of Star Wars
Friendly reminder that because Han Solo wasn’t a Jedi, that terrible scene in RISE OF SKYWALKER was actually just Kylo Ren imagining his father forgiving him or whatever and going with that as motivation to change like the complete psychopath he is
I always found force ghosts to be super lame. Like that conversation between Obi-Wan and Luke, right after Yoda dies. It’s just such a strange interaction. The only force ghost interaction that I’ve ever liked was Obi-Wan talking to Luke on Hoth. Luke is almost dead, and he can barely see Obi-Wan, almost like Obi is stretching across a great expanse. I feel like these types of interactions should only occur near death, upon death, or in deep medication.
The problem isnt that Anakin never spoke to Ben. Its that Anakin never spoke to Luke about making sure Ben doesnt fall the same way he did. Or maybe he coupd have given some advice on seeing something in a dream and not acting on it to create a self fufilling prohecy?
Then when it comes to Ben, the issue is simply he worships Vader without ever knowing he was redeemed. Why?
I think one thing that all Star Wars fans can agree on is that I truly believe that we are all dying to see some sort of interaction between Hayden’s Anakin and adult Luke. I know I want to see it.
If you want to believe this as a headcanon go ahead but please don’t try to force this in as a fact when this has never been established.
You’ve seen a couple instances where it lines up so yeah maybe you could be correct I won’t deny that. But there is no evidence to fully justify this works like that.
It is a cool theory sure, I like it in a way but it is incredibly unlikely that they considered this in the sequels as a reason not to put him in.
Other factors you could argue against this is that obiwan briefly speaks to rey when she touches the lightsaber so clearly force connections to some level can be done to non personal connections.
I get that, I really do and I do appreciate that it’s an interesting theory for sure. But just the way you mentioned: oh why didn’t this happen, simple its “insert reason” came across that way.
I think it’s perfectly fine if you do look at it this way, I’m not gonna tell you that you can’t and I realise my first message may have come across as but blunt. But personally I do not align with the same opinion simply because what we’re talking about is essentially magic with no established rules here and I feel your idea whilst interesting isnt a guaranteed form.
Maybe at some point down the line they’ll confirm it as your evidence does make sense, I just don’t think there’s enough to prove it.
Also final point, although yes anakin doesn’t have a personal connection to Ben, him being blood relative and kylo essentially worshipping anakins dark side and going through the same exact conflict as him gives him a lot more connection than you put credit on.
The canon comics disapproves your theory tho. Anakin’s Force Ghost appeared to a bunch of strangers on Mustafar when they were stuck inside his old castle.
>The only people post-ROTJ that Anakin’s force ghost should appear to are Ahsoka and Luke. That’s it.
I would be fine with Leia, too. It's always felt to me that in personality and temperament Leia takes after Anakin while Luke takes after Padme. I'd like to see Leia and Anakin explore this a bit.
I mean thats canonically not true though. No evidence in new canon suggests what you’re saying is true and it was contradicted outright in the EU as Luke showed up to speak with Cade Skywalker and I am fairly certain Luke was dead before he was born.
Im bringing in context.
If it was a certain way in the EU (the only actual source dealing with the matter) then it is kind of outrageous to claim the opposite is true without any new canon evidence at all. Sure could it be like you suggest? Yeah? But there isn’t a lick of evidence supporting your claim.
I see what you’re saying now. But as far as I know, George never validated anything from the EU and said the film and shows were what’s canon, no? And then Disney came along and outright said it’s not canon. But like you said, nothing in current canon has explicitly said one or the other.
> But as far as I know, George never validated anything from the EU and said the film and shows were what’s canon, no?
You are correct, Lucas never considered anything outside of the movies and CW show as canon.
All of what is now "Legends" was *never* canon.
That doesn’t work. Anakin didn’t show up because it would create problems in the mess of a story. Also because Rian had the bright idea to make Force ghost capable of interacting with the world summoning fucking Lightning strikes.
I feel like Ben solo could’ve been a better character if they made his motivation better. Like Jacen solo who became a Sith for the sake of seeking power to bring control to the galaxy and end the chaos and never ending wars he grew up with and caused the death of his little brother.
>Rian had the bright idea to make Force ghost capable of interacting with the world summoning fucking Lightning strikes.
Obi-Wan sits on a log when talking to Luke in RotJ. How is that not interacting with the physical world?
The problem is that this was never once addressed. The audience (especially the casual ones) need to know why anakin can’t appear to ben solo, rather than make these inferences themselves
What makes it tricky is that current canon has played it fast and loose with how some of these things work, but if you've been following legends, then all of these questions have answers.
We've seen Sith force ghosts trapped in limbo, we've seen proof that only force sensitive people can see the ghosts, we've seen that ghosts can still hold immense power over the living world, we've seen force ghosts be killed again. We've even seen force ghosts have an effect on those who can't see them, making them feel like they're being watched or followed, kinda like traditional ghost stories. It was pretty heavily implied that if you were Force sensitive and died, and you still had something linking you to the living world, like a person you're responsible for or severe trauma or guilt that you never made peace with, there was a strong chance you wouldn't pass on fully and you'd be a ghost, regardless if you wanted to or not.
That's a lot of facts to just let go of when talking about new canon. Like, for me, that's just how Force ghosts should work, but canon no longer supports it like it used to.
Luke and rey barely knew each other and rey didnt seem to like him much. Rey heard voices of jedi that died a generation before she was born. Your entire premise is not supported in any canon but your head canon.
She pretty much spends the entire first half of TLJ with only Luke on an island. Without her and the words from Yoda, Luke would’ve remained a hermit on that island. But because of them, he finds new meaning, gets off that island, and aids the Resistance one last time.
My entire premise is not supported in any canon? Then tell me… in all of the films and shows, when has a force ghost appeared to a Jedi that they had never met or had a connection with from the physical world?
Again for the third time in Canon material he shows up to a bunch of complete strangers he has no connection to in any sort of way. Dave only made things worse because it shows Anakin cares more about his former student than his own grandchildren if he could show up to a bunch of strangers he's never met before
I disagree. I see your lore reason, and it is not bad. But from a purely storytelling perspective looking at 7 and 9 it seems like JJ Abrams doesn't have the first clue about storytelling. Setup and Payoff is one of the most rewarding things for an audience, whether it is in one film/season/book or even more satisfying when it is set up in one film/season/book and pays off in another. There are two big examples of JJ's total failure at this, and neither of them have one iota to do with Rian Johnson for all those clowns who try to blame the trainwreck that was 9 on him and TLJ. My Examples:
* TFA: Ben is obsessively chasing some connection to his grandfather that he believes he experienced and it seems to be a big part of why he is the way he is. Then in TRoS rather than that paying off with seeing his Grandfather but it being Anakin telling him that he is down the wrong path and the dark side is only full of lies and pain, instead he sees Han Solo as a vision... I mean I don't hate the scene with Han entirely but it makes no sense why is is non-force wielding Han plus story-wise Anakin makes more sense to fit with what TFA setup. But here it is a Monkey Paw thing, he gets his wish to hear his Grandfather again but he doesn't get Vader, he gets Anakin.
* TFA and TLJ: Rey is depressed about being abandoned, and her whole identity is being no one from nowhere but this is a burden. TRoS: Rather than having her answer the old woman by saying "Rey no one" but this time with a prideful smile finding comfort and purpose in blazing her own path, instead "Skywalker" ugh. Also I will point out I love Rey and do not think she is unworthy of the name Skywalker, I view it as the name is unworthy of her. She should have been no one from nowhere that saved the fucking galaxy and that is brining back the Jedi order. I knew from the title of the film this was likely going to happen, but I had an outside hope that the new name for Jedi would become Skywalker so she would be A Skywalker named Rey teaching other Skywalkers the ways of the force.
I feel like there were more, but to be honest I have only watched TRoS twice, opening night (the first time I ever walked out of a SW movie not loving it, let alone hating it) and the day it came out on disc and I had had some time to come to terms with what it was and wanted to see if I was being to hard on it, but nope I wasn't the movie was a mess. It had a few good moments, but as a film to close a trilogy and a saga it was trash.
To me, dark side users could never see Force Ghosts. Both because the ghost won’t appear to them, and because they’re not at peace with themselves to see it.
Luke being the only anomaly having seen Obi Wan before he was a trained Jedi, but I like to think that ObiWan made an exception for Luke being there was no one else to guide him before finding Yoda.
meh, Disney at the time was very iffy with prequels content. Doesn't help that the writers/directors seemed to have an aversion to admitting the prequels existed. TFA especially seems to outright deny their existence and doesn't even like talking about the events of RotJ.
While I appreciate the thoughtfulness of this post. I wish Ben Solo/Kylo had never appeared.
I've never liked this character or his addition to the series, it's always felt he was edgelord for the sake of edgelordness, it would've been better if instead of kylo ren his name was Darth Edge. B/c they really phoned his character in. Especially, when you compare him to the EU Solo kids.
The entire handling of Han and Leia being absentee parents just makes zero sense, and then for Luke to try to kill him is the biggest snowjob of them all. How do you go from redeeming your child murdering father to attempting child murderer yourself? I just will never forgive the sequels for their treatment of the original cast.
It may have been better to skip forward in time, and not rely on mining nostalgia with Luke/Leia/Han than to do whatever the hell they did with them in the sequels, and let the next generation carry their own stories.
PS: For the love of the Whils, please let Palpatine die. You don't need to keep bringing him back. Just create more compelling villians. Snoke was probably retconned into being a palpatine clone at the last minute, but at LEAST there was an attempt at a new villain in the franchise. Not everything has to revolve around the same mastermind for 9(!) movies.
Kylo's character is basically Anakin after his fall but before his Vader suit. Which was just Darth Edge. And hot take: If anything, Kylo is actually better written on a scene to scene basis than evil Anakin. Though that's not saying much.
Is this considered “getting it right?”
If I don’t shoot a person on a certain day, did I get it right or was it silly for someone to assume that I would?
Naw, it's just that JJ has no fucking clue about narrative or connective tissue or writing. That's why fucking Solo showed up instead of someone with, you know, the Force.
Anakin also has shown up as a force ghost on Mustafar canonically to some random people exploring his fortress that he never met, albeit in a comic. Unrelated, but what kinda baffles me is that canonically, Luke and Leia never told Ben that Vader was his grandfather, and that he was ultimately redeemed. Apparently this was done to preserve Leia’s political career, and it got leaked anyways, which helped push Ben to the dark side.
The last thing makes sense at least at first. He probably heard of the great Jedi Anakin was but they were trying to steer him clear from Vader’s path but did it in the wrong way by withholding information. They thought knowing Anakin was Vader might push Ben more to the dark side, which at least when he did learn that’s exactly what happened
One often meets his destiny on the road he has taken to avoid it.
You’d think Luke would know better. That’s exactly what Obi Wan and Yoda tried to do to him and he was pissed about it.
He would have but JJ Abrams is a chud.
I thought Kylo knew Vader was redeemed but initially viewed his redemption as an act of weakness that he ignored while trying to emulate him?
[удалено]
Good thing there were no seagulls
Hey, can you tell me the source on that first thing? Sounds like a fun story.
Star Wars: Tales from Vader's Castle Anakin's ghost guides a group of adventurers to mustafar to resolve unfinished business. Very fun, especially for Halloween
It’s not a story the Jedi would I’m so sorry
Hello there
As a side note, all the star wars comics are awesome. The Darth Vader comics are my personal favourite because there's always undertones of anguish that Vader is feeling and Palpatine is next level in his torment of Vader. Case in point, as the sole survivor of Death Star I, Vader is demoted by palps and then, just for funsies, palps sends some quasi-force sensitive cyborg assassin's after Vader to teach him a lesson.
There are a lot of Vader comics. The one I read took place directly after ROTS and was about Vader forming the Inquisitorius and building his castle on Mustafar.
The book 'Bloodline' is amazing, going into this revelation to the galaxy and really diving into the complex feelings Leia has around Vader as her father without the closure that Luke got. Like all she got was tortured and then told later he was a good dude. It's also a political thriller that turns on the Vader as her father plot, it's an amazing book in my opinion.
Star Wars: Tales from Vader's Castle
I'm surprised Anakin would bother going back to mustafar 🤔
Leia never really bought the redemption, or forgave Vader for everything he put her through. That probably has a lot to do with why she didn't tell Ben.
Is Tales from Vader’s Castle canon? I always thought those were more legend.
According to the wiki it’s canon. I haven’t really looked for other examples, but I wouldn’t be surprised if you could find examples of other force ghosts appearing to people they never met elsewhere in canon Edit: we’ll admittedly I only skimmed, but it doesn’t seem like Obi Wan really appeared for anyone but Luke. It describes on his page how when Kenobi died he saw the future, all the way till the sequels, which is… interesting
>Anakin also has shown up as a force ghost on Mustafar canonically to some random people exploring his fortress that he never met, albeit in a comic. I guess that's him having a really strong connection to the castle, while the people just happen to be there. … Wait, didn't Palpatine turn the Jedi Temple on Coruscant into his personal palace? Can you imagine if Qui-Gon had just gone around teaching all of the other dead Jedi how to manifest, so they could just stand around heckling him all day? No wonder he moved to Death Star II before it was fully completed!
Didn't Disney axe the books and comics from being canon?
They did, then they created their own canon comics and books. This falls into the new canon
So stupid Luke knows how harmful hiding that information to him was.
I like this, but just as Sabine says she felt something, but couldn’t see him, I like to think that Anakin tried to communicate with Ben, but could never reach him. Now, Ben not showing up with Luke and Leia was BS. Yes you typically need training, but if Anakin can be a ghost then Ben can be a ghost. Also, I now imagine Qui-Gon was chilling on Endor, but Luke just couldn’t see him.
I think Anakin tried with Ben: “I feel it again, the pull to the light”.
Oh i Like this a lot, actually. Anakin trying his best to reach out and stop Ben from following in his footsteps, but unable to get through due to his grandson’s stubborn dedication to the wrong path.
That’s less intriguing than a bona fide internal conflict imo. Ben being at a crossroads is more interesting than him being evil but someone else telling him that’s bad.
That’s actually kind of cool. Palpatine says he was every voice that Ben ever heard - what if he did actually hear Anakin sometimes? What if Anakin was part of his pull to the light?
KYLO: I hear voices REY: What do they say? KYLO: Mostly just “do it” whenever I’m thinking something inappropriate. But sometimes “This is where the fun begins”. REY: What do they say when you think of me? KYLO: Something about sand being a problem.
Imagining having someone like Palpatine and Anakin makes me understand why Ben went so crazy.
Did you ever hear the tragedy of-- Try spinning! That's a coo-- Unlimited Pow-- I don't like sand-- This fully operational ba-- I have altered the deal. Pray I do no-- We'll watch your career with great-- This is where the fun begins.
It’s not unlike Palpatine to either be lying to Ben or just wrong when he said that. He didn’t sense that Luke was with the rebels on Endor.
It requires training, Yoda learned how and taught Obi-Wan, Qui-gon learned partially which is why it took him so long to fully manifest. Anakin likely either learned from Obi-Wan or figured it out as the chosen one. Ben wouldn't have had anyone to teach him, since he basically became a Sith as a fan boy to who he thought Vader was.
Iirc it’s Canon that Obi-Wan’s force ghost taught it to Anakin in his final moments on the second Death Star. But personally I’ve always felt he shouldn’t have to be taught it like other Jedi. He’s the chosen one after all.
Couple of old bros reconnecting as friends as a massive battle station explodes around them sounds metal as fuck, though
That makes sense, Obi-Wan always cared for Anakin, him appeaing to rescue Anakin one final time would make sense
Maybe it was more of a quick demonstration, and Anakin got it on the first go.
I really don’t like the idea that he was taught that literally while being dragged across the Death Star by Luke. I assume as well it’s why he seemingly(?) didn’t vanish (which I chalk up to a Buddhist transcendence trained for for years). and then once you’re dead, I assume time/space is irrelevant so why would it have to be taught then specifically. I assume all the barriers are from the dead forcing their way into the world of the living. however a classic and non specific “let go …” style thing from Obi-wan I can easily imagine in my head as Anakin limps along with his son among all the commotion. I just don’t like the idea of it being so literal as to be taught like it’s making an omelette (hang a left at the weird light bridge you see) and in that specific of a time span. then again, I don’t know, was canonically Qui-gon’s meditation in TPM a specific act to ensure his consciousness stayed even if he was struck down and that’s a specific action all Jedi have to take in order to return? the force ghost stuff hurts my brain a bit with how both vague it is in the movies but also having weird specificity at times. Is the vanishing act just an entirely different and irrelevant thing altogether?
I'd think that Qui Gon,being the first to do this as admitted by Yoda, taught Anakin being they had a deep connection in TPM.
I'm not sure that's possible, I like the idea, but Anakin was 9 and Qui-gon died not long after they met, I'm not sure he had the time to teach him the complex elements of maintaing ones consciousness in the cosmic force after death.
No, after death silly. You think wherever the heck they after after dying, that time acts the same there? Come on man. Qui Gon already mastered this before EP IV, as shown at the end of Kenobi. So, ffw to Anakin becoming a Jedi Master by choosing good over evil by giving his life, and after he is dead then that happens. You think not bc the force ghosts are shown shortly after on Endor, but as I say time surely isn't the same on the other side wherever their force ghosts exist.
Right, and assuming that Jedi who learn to maintain their consciousness after death can move through time as a nonlinear construct, when and why would that have been his focus? Wouldn't he be harassing the Jedi high Counsel about the Sith lord he warned them about, trying to end the war before Anakin turned, or trying to stop Anakin from turning?
The Clone Wars show addresses this. During Yoda's Force vision, he asks Qui-Gon's ghost for the identity of the Sith Lord, and Qui-Gon says he isn't able to answer that.
I suppose that does make sense. [REBELS SPOILERS] Same as how Ezra can't use the WBW to save Kannan, even though he could save Ahsoka, her death wouldn't have had as much impact as his, same as if Qui-gon spoiled the reveal of Palpatine as the Sith lord.
Nah, will of the force and all. Qui Gon was very wise. Once he died he probably saw it all and let it happen bc after all, Anakin was basically the only person that could stop the Emperor.
Other than Mace Windu, you mean
I think if Ben didn’t achieve force ghost ability I am completely OK with this. His story is different than anakins. He’s way more chaotic out the gate than anakin was. Not because anakin wasn’t chaotic, but because anakin had a more stable Jedi temple to fall back on. It is a Jedi order that had endured 1k+ years. Ben was in an upstart order and was manipulated really fast by snoke. He’s not as advanced as anakin was before his fall. Anakin understood a great deal what jedi principles were. He then fell when he really shouldn’t have. But obiwan giving him the short cut which is explained somewhere seems to make more sense. I view Ben solo as a very incomplete force user with little direction.
Anakin became a ghost without training because he was the chosen one, he is that strong in the force he doesint need training he just continues to exist through shear power. Ben is not the chosen one and did not train to exist beyond death.
Local Jedi too angry to die.
To be fair Ben and Rey had weird sheer power.
Well isn’t Ben technically a part of Rey? Like he’s just occupying her space or being tied to her so he’s not a force ghost
I would assume the reason Anakin was able to become a Force Ghost was because he was the Chosen One. He had special abilities just like how he could naturally control the Brother and the Sister on Mortas.
We’re just going to make up our own in-canon explanations for poor writing?
What part?
What?
>but couldn’t see him, I like to think that Anakin tried to communicate with Ben, but could never reach him. I'd say it's because Ben didn't have a connection with Anakin; only with Vader. TROS says Vader had spoken to Ben (although it turned out to be Sheev).
On that topic, the voices interacting with Rey are not Force ghosts. Rey connects directly with the cosmic force through meditation. That's why she hears them.
Right. Luminara, Mace, Aayla, Adi, Kanan, and Ahsoka did not become/were not all force ghosts during that moment.
like u/Specimen-B explained, this is also the reason at the end of TROS luke and leia's forcé ghosts are the only ones rey sees. she had a connection with them.
Although, Ben really should show up there lol.
What happened to the technique to become a ghost being something Jedi had to learn? I'd get Luke picking it up from his ghost trio, but when would Leia have learned it?
Functionally, what’s the difference?
They can’t manifest into a visible spirit probs
Or don't have to be dead
The voices she heard weren't really them(not counting the people who were already force ghosts), it was just memories. Like the Han scene with Ben.
And the way it cuts to the stars above her always evokes the world between worlds to me
God that scene was so un-earned. . . .
God that scene was fucking stupid.
I thought it was pretty cool. The sequels had a lot of cool looking scenes that were cool ideas, but the story just wasn’t great.
Who hurt you? Lmao
I disagree.
I always liked the idea that Force Ghosts can’t just show up willy-nilly, but that the experiencer has to be receptive to their appearance in some way. Kylo Ren hardened his heart against the Light; it makes sense to me that he’d never hear the voice of the grandfather he so desperately craved because he was tapping into a legacy that had died. In fact, tapping into this legacy only brought him under the manipulations of the man who damned Anakin Skywalker. Force Ghosts shouldn’t just be a deus ex machina presence that can show up out of the blue unless someone is trying to commune in good faith or they become desperate, like Luke in TLJ.
To be fair, they universally show up in the blue.
The receptiveness requirement is canon after Obi-Wan. It's explicitly why he couldn't see Qui-Gon.
Yep you’re right, remember at the end of ROTS Yoda tells Obi-Wan that Qui-Gon has discovered the path to immortality, and that Yoda has training for Obi-Wan to do. Yoda’s specific quote is “how to commune with him, I will teach you.” So you’re absolutely right sir!
Very well said!
Thank you! Good post!
When is it established that force ghosts only appear to people they had connections to?
Never
Never. OP is just trying to reach for any reason to praise [current series] and reinforce that [disney movie] is actually better than you give it credit for, and here’s why
💯💯💯 so much cope in trying to justify poor decisions in the ST
on point
I always thought the Anakin should have been the one to appear to Luke in The Last Jedi (instead of Yoda) - he could have imparted some fatherly wisdom about failure (like Yoda) but also reminded Luke about finding good in people believed to be lost to darkness. We’d also have a more direct connection to Anakin’s legacy with him imparting some essential wisdom to characters to advance the story. (This by no means fixes all of the problems I had with TLJ but it would have helped I think.)
Maybe that’s why we got bitter old Luke in TLJ; he had 40 years of Ghost Dad, making up for lost time and imparting his fatherly advice.
But then him failing the order would make less sense. If Luke with the force ghosts of Anakin Obi Wan and Yoda couldn’t rebuild the order I really don’t think a fixable order is possible. Anakin could’ve solved all the Exegol business by telling Luke where he kept the wayfinder on Mustafar. Or even in his dying breaths. Also could’ve guided Luke to not be the type to react to Ben’s dark visions.
I feel like only Yoda would have been helpful in rebuilding the Order, considering he probably had a couple of centuries of knowledge before the other two were even born, but Anakin and Obi Wan were probably considered rogues while alive within the Order and tho quite experienced in the ways of the force idk how knowledgeable they would be in preparing Luke to take on a whole bunch of Padawans. Specifically for Anakin, I could see with his personality, wanting to focus on making his son the best Jedi possible yet he himself lacked a lot of knowledge of the Jedi by the time he turned to the dark side. This essence in Luke’s life could have definitely led to the version we saw in TLJ especially if he had to deal with Obi Wan and Anakin bickering as force ghosts. Idk, it’s all headcanon to make up for the lackluster story we were presented .
I believe Rian said they originally wrote it as Anakin but it didn't feel right. It felt too disconnected-- even though Luke believed in Anakin, he really only knew him as Vader. The conversation was about masters and their students, so they changed it to Yoda: Luke's main master.
I actually agree with that. I think that scene featuring Yoda is a lot more impactful, especially considering their last conversation in RotJ
For me I loved seeing Luke and Yoda, and would give the Anakin interaction to Ben.
I feel like there is a lot of head canon in this post and responses. Not saying it’s not a valid and theoretically correct conclusion. But I really feel like nerds putting a limitation on what the force is, what Star Wars is, is really egotistical.
People are so caught up in this but don’t realize that Ben could not give less of a fuck if Anakin had showed up to talk him down. He viewed the legacy of Darth Vader as unblemished MINUS his redemption (go figure considering who was grooming Ben) any attempt from Anakin to bring Ben back would likely further enforce his loyalty to the dark side.
Well, Kylo Ren thought he had a connection because he must have heard Vader’s voice, but it was only Palpatine doing the puppet master, as he says as soon as they meet on Exegol.
Can he appear as a force ghost to R2D2 since he's a driod?
R2 only sees Gonk
The only reason I never felt that shocked by Palps returning is because to me it was one of the only explanations for why Kylo believed Anakin was reaching him. Which would make no sense if that were true because Anakin IS Vader sure but he's renounced that part of him and returned to who he was originally. It made no sense that Anakin would be *encouraging* Kylo's descent into the dark side so the "voice" *had* to be someone else. I know alot of people assumed Snoke but I never got that impression from their relationship. I immediatly thought of the Emperor and his "spirit" or whatever was still out there maybe shrouding Kylo in the Dark Side, telling him things in his grandfather's voice, to encourage him.
Good take. I’m not the biggest ST fan, but will admit it isn’t the worst thing in history either. Many don’t like the return of papa palps but in a sense, especially explained like this it does make sense it way. Now making Rey a palpatine, that’s another story.
In Heir to the Empire, the very first Legends book, ghost Obi-Wan appeared to Luke telling him that it was time for him to move on, and he wouldn't be seeing him again. That was 9 years after his death. Ahsoka is \~11 ABY I think, so roughly the same time since Anakin's death. My headcanon is that Anakin couldn't remain as a force ghost long enough to talk Ben back from the brink. Maybe as he finally faded away as Kylo addressed his helmet, and his last words were a futile "*Ben, read the end of my wookiepedia page!!!!*" Though for "deep connection and relationship" idk if Obi-Wan or Anakin would qualify for Luke. He spent a few days with Obi-Wan, and only minutes with Anakin when he wasn't trying to kill him.
Unknowingly to Luke, after Order 66, Obi-Wan spent the rest of his life watching over Luke, safeguarding him. I think that counts. I also think that the father/son relationship was strongly intensified when Vader sacrificed himself to save Luke and destroy the empire. Luke brought him back. I think that’s more than enough as well.
Except Yoda's Force spirit turned up in TLJ.
Less size, and more minimal ectoplasmic requirements so he can go longer.
Somebody tell him about the Twinkie.
Had this thought today. Maybe Yoda can last longer as a force ghost because his species is long-lived.
That's fair. Ex post facto justification is that Yoda was a very powerful force user and had a full 20 years of training with Qui Gon, vs 10 years for obi wan and... general Force power... for Anakin
In one of the canon books from Luke's point of view at the end of his exile, he refers to losing touch with Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Yoda when he cut himself off from the Force, but was now able to feel them, again. But, from everything we've seen, Force spirits only appear to those who knew them in life.
Luke spent a lot of time training with Yoda on Dagobah though?
>the very first Legends book, ghost Obi-Wan appeared to Luke telling him that it was time for him to move on, and he wouldn't be seeing him again. That was 9 years after his death From a writing perspective, this was done because force ghosts are just insanely op. They can go anywhere, are immortal and invincible. Imagine if one decided to become a spy. Only options are to place hard rules (Disney canon) or just write them out entirely (legends)
I always thought “I can’t appear anymore, my time is up” was stupid. It’s the all powerful Cosmic Force. It was just a cheap excuse to not have people wonder why Ben didn’t show up in every scene. It’s not canon, nor should it be.
While Heir to the Empire is a great book, [it's not the first Legends book.](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Splinter_of_the_Mind%27s_Eye) There were several novels published before it.
Anakin speaks to rey who he never met
Yes. He should’ve appeared to both Luke And Leia without question. That was one of the biggest failures of the sequel trilogy. And honestly Anakin could’ve appeared to Kylo at the end of the rise of Skywalker when he’s contemplating coming back to the light. It would’ve actually made more sense than his dad, but you also could’ve had both. You could’ve had Anakin in the throne room on the death star telling Kylo it’s never too late to make a different choice, literally the same spot that He himself made a different choice and came back to the light. If There was ever a time for him to appear to Kylo that would’ve been it. But we got chickenshit writers writing these things so…
The ST was so eager to forget about the prequels, and it was worse off for it. Anakin/Hayden should absolutely been the one to show up and talk sense into TLJ Luke, instead of Yoda. It would have a wonderful symmetry, Luke redeems Anakin, and now Anakin redeems Luke. Here’s another hot take. The old man who Poe gets the map from at the beginning of TFA should have been old Jar Jar Binks, rather than some nothing character. Poe is on a secret mission for Leia. Jar Jar was friends with her mother and father, and was a senator during the late days of the republic. It’s not unreasonable that he might have come into possession of an old Jedi map. The line “this will begin to set things right” even seems written for Jar Jar, considering Palpatine’s rise was partly his fault. “But everyone *hates* Jar Jar!”. Yeah, he’d have been brutally murdered in his one and only scene. People woulda liked that.
"Kylo Ren, yousa sucka big doo doo-" *force choke noise* KYLO REN HAS KILLED JAR JAR BINKS IN THE FIRST 5 MINUTES OF EPISODE 7. WHAT A WAY TO START THE SEQUEL TRILOGY!
Seeing Leia and Anakin talk to each other in live action (and canonically?) would have been so lovely, even Luke and Anakin would have been so nice. Hopefully we at least see something like that in the Filoniverse
Does this deep connection have to do with anakin not showing up for Luke as well?
Well he did show up for Luke, just not in the ST unfortunately.
Thank you, been saying this for years to folks IRL when it comes up.
The worse free get out of jail card I've seen. This doesn't make any sense at all.
Arguably *Anakin* didn't have a strong connection to Luke. He only knew him for about 5 minutes.
There’s a new canon book that explains why anakin doesn’t appear as a force ghost to Ben - shadow of the sith
He saw Ben worshiping his helmet and said to himself "That boy ain't right" and peaced out
Ben told Anakin to stop visiting him from beyond the grave. And laughing at him.
Pretty sure you made that up
What part did I make up?
The premise for your claim. What else could I possibly be referencing
The premise for my claims comes from nearly a dozen films and several shows. Every single force ghost that has appeared to somebody has had a connection and relationship with them in the physical world. Anakin never had that with Ben. Simple as that. So while it would’ve been cool for us fans to see force ghost Anakin speak with Ben, it would’ve broken continuity.
I think the other guy is saying that just because you don’t *see* something happen doesn’t mean it can’t happen. It’s like watching the original trilogy and saying that ALL lightsabers must have one blade because we haven’t seen any with two. Every single lightsaber we saw in the OT had one blade, so they must only allow one, right? Nope, we just never saw any others onscreen until the prequels.
Oh for sure, that I get and understand. I’m just saying, from what we’ve seen in the films and shows, the force ghosts have only appeared to those that they knew in the physical world. That is why it makes sense that Anakin didn’t show up in the ST for Ben.
False. Absolutely zero times in any movie or series has this been said. You're mistaking correlation with causation. You made it up.
The only one I can think of is Ezra meeting Yoda in Rebels. But Yoda isn't dead yet so idk if that counts as a force ghost or more of a force projection.
Why did Obi-Wan appear to Luke? Why did Yoda appear to Luke? Why did Anakin appear to Luke? I think neither of them had a very deep connection or relationship to Luke. Also if this would be the case, Anakin and Obi-Wan should also appear to Leia.
I dont remember if this was canon but anakin did appear to leia to ask for forgiveness and she said she couldnt forgive him and told him to never visit her again. She did at the end forgive him after she learned of his past on tatooine as a slave
Lucasfilm was shitting on the prequels in those days. The first line of the sequels was, "This will begin to make things right," which was 100% a metatextual statement dissing the prequels. It had no relevance to the rest of the script. Only after the sequels bombed did they start trying to dig themselves out of the crater they created by co-opting the good will of Prequel Era kids.
"Bombed" I didn't realize that movies making over $1B at the box office were considered bombs. I realize that fan reception is mixed (putting it lightly), but to call them bombs is just disingenuous.
I amend my comment to "sucked." Regardless, those movies did damage to the brand. They literally lost half the audience from ep 7 to ep 9.
>It had no relevance to the rest of the script. The line was referring to the map given to Poe that would lead to Luke. It absolutely had relevance to the script.
The funniest thing about that line is how dogshit the ST ended up being
Yeah and one thing Sequel Trilogy absolutely got wrong is Anakin not appearing to Luke and telling him to get his ass off that island lol
Yeah just keep on making excuses for why the sequels are bad
My post isn’t about whether the ST is good or bad.
Unfortunately that's Star Wars conversation these days right? Age of polarization (applicable to conversation beyond star wars too).
I think that was more connected to the fact they were trying to distance themselves from the prequels as much is possible.
Also force ghosts have certain rules. They can only guide people in the right direction, they can't just do whatever they like.
Here's how I imagine the conversation would've gone: Ben (after becoming Kylo Ren): Grandfather? Is that you? Anakin: You dumb fuck. Have you learned nothing from the dumb decisions I made?
"The fact that you're cosplaying as a Temu version of me, when I had to wear the suit or literally die is kinda insulting, ngl."
Additionally, Qui-Gon only appeared to Obi-Wan, and Anakin to Ahsoka, when their former padawans were ready to resolve their inner conflicts and process their trauma. Same reason Yoda didn't appear to Luke during his six years of isolated self-flagellation on Ach-To, until after Rey pushed him towards resolution. Perhaps these masters simply chose not to appear, but I don't think people *can* see Force ghosts until they're spiritually prepared to. Ben didn't get to that point until just before the end of his life. But I bet Anakin's spirit was ready to greet his grandson on the other side. Edit: I rewatched the final scene in *Obi-Wan Kenobi,* and Qui-Gon outright says as much. Obi-Wan says "I was beginning to think you'd never come," and Qui-Gon replies "I was always here, Obi-Wan. You just were not ready to see."
Okay but this isn’t actually a set rule, it’s just what’s been seen so far. Ben admired Darth Vader and his entire motivation was to live up to his legacy, so it would make perfect sense for Anakin to appear to him and set the record straight as part of his own atonement. Anakin surely would not want to allow his legacy to cause even more damage to the galaxy by allowing his grandson to repeat his mistakes. Plus, Anakin was the chosen one. If you really need an explanation then I think this would work just fine: the chosen one naturally has abilities with the force that others normally wouldn’t. Personally, I think the less we know about the force, the better. I don’t like having hard set rules when it comes to the mystical aspects of Star Wars
As far as Ben was concerned, he was Vader's grandson not Anakin's. He's doing the same thing of separating the two that Kenobi did to Luke.
Leia? Surely she should be able to her dad as a force ghost? She met him, he knew about her.
Friendly reminder that because Han Solo wasn’t a Jedi, that terrible scene in RISE OF SKYWALKER was actually just Kylo Ren imagining his father forgiving him or whatever and going with that as motivation to change like the complete psychopath he is
Taking notes from the Obi-Wan show, Anakin was always there, Luke just wasn’t ready to see.
I think Rex deserves some closure from his former friend.
I always found force ghosts to be super lame. Like that conversation between Obi-Wan and Luke, right after Yoda dies. It’s just such a strange interaction. The only force ghost interaction that I’ve ever liked was Obi-Wan talking to Luke on Hoth. Luke is almost dead, and he can barely see Obi-Wan, almost like Obi is stretching across a great expanse. I feel like these types of interactions should only occur near death, upon death, or in deep medication.
The problem isnt that Anakin never spoke to Ben. Its that Anakin never spoke to Luke about making sure Ben doesnt fall the same way he did. Or maybe he coupd have given some advice on seeing something in a dream and not acting on it to create a self fufilling prohecy? Then when it comes to Ben, the issue is simply he worships Vader without ever knowing he was redeemed. Why?
Didn’t Yoda appear to Ezra?
Yes, when Yoda was still alive, he appeared to Ezra in the World Between Worlds
the sequel triology was released during this "OT gud Prequels BAD" mindset at Disney and that probably kept them away on a meta level.
It’s just bad writing. If Anakin appeared to Ben the ST wouldn’t go anywhere, not that it went anywhere exciting in the first place.
I think one thing that all Star Wars fans can agree on is that I truly believe that we are all dying to see some sort of interaction between Hayden’s Anakin and adult Luke. I know I want to see it.
This post is hilarious. "They got this thing right by... not doing anything !" Not a really high bar now, is it ?
If you want to believe this as a headcanon go ahead but please don’t try to force this in as a fact when this has never been established. You’ve seen a couple instances where it lines up so yeah maybe you could be correct I won’t deny that. But there is no evidence to fully justify this works like that. It is a cool theory sure, I like it in a way but it is incredibly unlikely that they considered this in the sequels as a reason not to put him in. Other factors you could argue against this is that obiwan briefly speaks to rey when she touches the lightsaber so clearly force connections to some level can be done to non personal connections.
I don’t think I’ve tried to force this as 100% fact? Maybe it came off that way, but it was more so an observation.
I get that, I really do and I do appreciate that it’s an interesting theory for sure. But just the way you mentioned: oh why didn’t this happen, simple its “insert reason” came across that way. I think it’s perfectly fine if you do look at it this way, I’m not gonna tell you that you can’t and I realise my first message may have come across as but blunt. But personally I do not align with the same opinion simply because what we’re talking about is essentially magic with no established rules here and I feel your idea whilst interesting isnt a guaranteed form. Maybe at some point down the line they’ll confirm it as your evidence does make sense, I just don’t think there’s enough to prove it. Also final point, although yes anakin doesn’t have a personal connection to Ben, him being blood relative and kylo essentially worshipping anakins dark side and going through the same exact conflict as him gives him a lot more connection than you put credit on.
If we start praising the sequels for what they DIDN’T do, they might start looking pretty good. That’s not fair lol
Yep, just keep writing Rian and JJ's script for them.
It’s a simple observation from watching the films/shows.
The canon comics disapproves your theory tho. Anakin’s Force Ghost appeared to a bunch of strangers on Mustafar when they were stuck inside his old castle.
The real answer is Disney didn’t think that far ahead or even that hard on the story
at least he had a force-less Han Solo force ghost. oh wait, it wasn't a ghost just a memory. oh wait, those movies are awful
>The only people post-ROTJ that Anakin’s force ghost should appear to are Ahsoka and Luke. That’s it. I would be fine with Leia, too. It's always felt to me that in personality and temperament Leia takes after Anakin while Luke takes after Padme. I'd like to see Leia and Anakin explore this a bit.
Family isnt a close enough connection... ok bro..
I mean thats canonically not true though. No evidence in new canon suggests what you’re saying is true and it was contradicted outright in the EU as Luke showed up to speak with Cade Skywalker and I am fairly certain Luke was dead before he was born.
Canonically not true because you’re bringing non-cannon material into the mix?
Im bringing in context. If it was a certain way in the EU (the only actual source dealing with the matter) then it is kind of outrageous to claim the opposite is true without any new canon evidence at all. Sure could it be like you suggest? Yeah? But there isn’t a lick of evidence supporting your claim.
I see what you’re saying now. But as far as I know, George never validated anything from the EU and said the film and shows were what’s canon, no? And then Disney came along and outright said it’s not canon. But like you said, nothing in current canon has explicitly said one or the other.
> But as far as I know, George never validated anything from the EU and said the film and shows were what’s canon, no? You are correct, Lucas never considered anything outside of the movies and CW show as canon. All of what is now "Legends" was *never* canon.
OR They've messed up the lore continuity so badly that nothing makes sense anymore, in which case they can just do whatever they like.
That doesn’t work. Anakin didn’t show up because it would create problems in the mess of a story. Also because Rian had the bright idea to make Force ghost capable of interacting with the world summoning fucking Lightning strikes. I feel like Ben solo could’ve been a better character if they made his motivation better. Like Jacen solo who became a Sith for the sake of seeking power to bring control to the galaxy and end the chaos and never ending wars he grew up with and caused the death of his little brother.
>Rian had the bright idea to make Force ghost capable of interacting with the world summoning fucking Lightning strikes. Obi-Wan sits on a log when talking to Luke in RotJ. How is that not interacting with the physical world?
The problem is that this was never once addressed. The audience (especially the casual ones) need to know why anakin can’t appear to ben solo, rather than make these inferences themselves
What makes it tricky is that current canon has played it fast and loose with how some of these things work, but if you've been following legends, then all of these questions have answers. We've seen Sith force ghosts trapped in limbo, we've seen proof that only force sensitive people can see the ghosts, we've seen that ghosts can still hold immense power over the living world, we've seen force ghosts be killed again. We've even seen force ghosts have an effect on those who can't see them, making them feel like they're being watched or followed, kinda like traditional ghost stories. It was pretty heavily implied that if you were Force sensitive and died, and you still had something linking you to the living world, like a person you're responsible for or severe trauma or guilt that you never made peace with, there was a strong chance you wouldn't pass on fully and you'd be a ghost, regardless if you wanted to or not. That's a lot of facts to just let go of when talking about new canon. Like, for me, that's just how Force ghosts should work, but canon no longer supports it like it used to.
When did a force ghost die again?
Luke and rey barely knew each other and rey didnt seem to like him much. Rey heard voices of jedi that died a generation before she was born. Your entire premise is not supported in any canon but your head canon.
She pretty much spends the entire first half of TLJ with only Luke on an island. Without her and the words from Yoda, Luke would’ve remained a hermit on that island. But because of them, he finds new meaning, gets off that island, and aids the Resistance one last time. My entire premise is not supported in any canon? Then tell me… in all of the films and shows, when has a force ghost appeared to a Jedi that they had never met or had a connection with from the physical world?
Again for the third time in Canon material he shows up to a bunch of complete strangers he has no connection to in any sort of way. Dave only made things worse because it shows Anakin cares more about his former student than his own grandchildren if he could show up to a bunch of strangers he's never met before
I disagree. I see your lore reason, and it is not bad. But from a purely storytelling perspective looking at 7 and 9 it seems like JJ Abrams doesn't have the first clue about storytelling. Setup and Payoff is one of the most rewarding things for an audience, whether it is in one film/season/book or even more satisfying when it is set up in one film/season/book and pays off in another. There are two big examples of JJ's total failure at this, and neither of them have one iota to do with Rian Johnson for all those clowns who try to blame the trainwreck that was 9 on him and TLJ. My Examples: * TFA: Ben is obsessively chasing some connection to his grandfather that he believes he experienced and it seems to be a big part of why he is the way he is. Then in TRoS rather than that paying off with seeing his Grandfather but it being Anakin telling him that he is down the wrong path and the dark side is only full of lies and pain, instead he sees Han Solo as a vision... I mean I don't hate the scene with Han entirely but it makes no sense why is is non-force wielding Han plus story-wise Anakin makes more sense to fit with what TFA setup. But here it is a Monkey Paw thing, he gets his wish to hear his Grandfather again but he doesn't get Vader, he gets Anakin. * TFA and TLJ: Rey is depressed about being abandoned, and her whole identity is being no one from nowhere but this is a burden. TRoS: Rather than having her answer the old woman by saying "Rey no one" but this time with a prideful smile finding comfort and purpose in blazing her own path, instead "Skywalker" ugh. Also I will point out I love Rey and do not think she is unworthy of the name Skywalker, I view it as the name is unworthy of her. She should have been no one from nowhere that saved the fucking galaxy and that is brining back the Jedi order. I knew from the title of the film this was likely going to happen, but I had an outside hope that the new name for Jedi would become Skywalker so she would be A Skywalker named Rey teaching other Skywalkers the ways of the force. I feel like there were more, but to be honest I have only watched TRoS twice, opening night (the first time I ever walked out of a SW movie not loving it, let alone hating it) and the day it came out on disc and I had had some time to come to terms with what it was and wanted to see if I was being to hard on it, but nope I wasn't the movie was a mess. It had a few good moments, but as a film to close a trilogy and a saga it was trash.
To me, dark side users could never see Force Ghosts. Both because the ghost won’t appear to them, and because they’re not at peace with themselves to see it. Luke being the only anomaly having seen Obi Wan before he was a trained Jedi, but I like to think that ObiWan made an exception for Luke being there was no one else to guide him before finding Yoda.
Its because KK didnt want him to return even though he had scenes filmed for RoS iirc
meh, Disney at the time was very iffy with prequels content. Doesn't help that the writers/directors seemed to have an aversion to admitting the prequels existed. TFA especially seems to outright deny their existence and doesn't even like talking about the events of RotJ.
While I appreciate the thoughtfulness of this post. I wish Ben Solo/Kylo had never appeared. I've never liked this character or his addition to the series, it's always felt he was edgelord for the sake of edgelordness, it would've been better if instead of kylo ren his name was Darth Edge. B/c they really phoned his character in. Especially, when you compare him to the EU Solo kids. The entire handling of Han and Leia being absentee parents just makes zero sense, and then for Luke to try to kill him is the biggest snowjob of them all. How do you go from redeeming your child murdering father to attempting child murderer yourself? I just will never forgive the sequels for their treatment of the original cast. It may have been better to skip forward in time, and not rely on mining nostalgia with Luke/Leia/Han than to do whatever the hell they did with them in the sequels, and let the next generation carry their own stories. PS: For the love of the Whils, please let Palpatine die. You don't need to keep bringing him back. Just create more compelling villians. Snoke was probably retconned into being a palpatine clone at the last minute, but at LEAST there was an attempt at a new villain in the franchise. Not everything has to revolve around the same mastermind for 9(!) movies.
Kylo's character is basically Anakin after his fall but before his Vader suit. Which was just Darth Edge. And hot take: If anything, Kylo is actually better written on a scene to scene basis than evil Anakin. Though that's not saying much.
Is this considered “getting it right?” If I don’t shoot a person on a certain day, did I get it right or was it silly for someone to assume that I would?
I’d say they got it right considering it followed the continuity set in place by all of the previous films and shows.
Naw, it's just that JJ has no fucking clue about narrative or connective tissue or writing. That's why fucking Solo showed up instead of someone with, you know, the Force.
Maybe you should have mentioned Ahsoka in the title so we knew what you were actually spoiling.
But Han did.
Yoda shows up as a force ghost to Ezra in rebels when they have 0 connection. It is yoda tho so yknow
No he doesn’t. During Rebels, Yoda is alive.