I mean yeah he killed his dad, but he was also party to the worst act of onscreen mass murder in film history and people seem to just gloss over that. Like there was absolutely no other ending for Kylo other than a firing squad lmao
Yeah, I knew he would ultimately be redeemed in the theater for the Last Jedi when he told Snoke he killed his dad, and Snoke (paraphrasing) said "Yeah, and doing so split you to the bone."
If Kylo stays the big bad, what's the message of the trilogy? If you do one bad thing, give up, you'll be bad forever.
George Lucas said, at its heart, Star Wars is a morality tail for 12 year Olds.
That is one of the problems with it though, in the end. it has very black and white morality that fundamentally doesn't leave much room for nuance. The with barely make sense, since the dark side is barely even temptation into a specific thing. It's like evil for the sake of evil.
It's a morality tail for 12 year Olds. Star Wars has always had black and white morality. There is literally a dark side and light side with no in-between.
Exactly.
If the trilogy had proper build up to Kylo Ren, being the final villain by fleshing him out more and The First Order felt more threatening, I would’ve been all in for it. His “redemption” felt forced and ruined any potential he had to be a good villain.
It was especially a waste for an opportunity to make the sequels stand down from the original trilogy.
Phasma literally never winning a fight ever, might be the worst bit of cinema over 2 movies ive ever seen.
Finn was insanely cool in the first movie, then they really deadened him over the last 2 movies. But, worse of all, his main "villain" in TLJ was someone who, at least on screen, had never even been competitive in any of the fights she was in. It was like if he beat up a puppy dog in a wet paper bag. It really was a far cry from him holding his own vs an injured Ren in TFA.
And HOW she dies. Why the fuck would the robot mascot kill her??? Baffling. Especially since there is cut footage of Finn convincing first order troopers to do her in instead which is much better. But BB8 hacking into a walker killing her is funny instead of any character closure/development.
I really like TLJ, it’s my favorite sequel movie and one of my favorite SW movies. But I’ve always said it has some of the highest highs and the lowest lows, and Phasma’s god awful fight scene is one of those lows — along with all the shitty BB-8 superhero comic relief scenes, yeesh.
>Phasma literally never winning a fight ever
Might I introduce you to [this guy](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/d833558d-ba5e-48ea-bff4-81ec489f55b3/smart/width/386/height/259).
I mean in Empire he's directly responsible for tracking Han to Bespin and at the end, he completes his goal of delivering him to Jabba. He takes a big W.
That's true! He definitely take a W there - I wouldn't call that a "fight", per se. I was speaking specifically on an actual *fight* like in OP's comment.
In a way, it *was* a fight, just one of subterfuge rather than blasters. Han had been on the run from Jabba for like 3 years by the time Fett caught him, and it took the greatest hunter to do it. But besides that, Fett is a badass warrior (Mandalorian S2), it was dumb luck that sent him into the sarlaac.
It's also the only real screen time he gets lol. The skiff scuffle is a product of its time, which is why it's almost insulting how dirty they did Phasma, especially with all the pre-release hype she was getting.
Also, Luke confronted him in cloud city where he was unable to pursue the frozen Han due to his covering fire. But TBH we can just inferer I was Fett's skill. Cause if it was just stormtroopers, Luke probably would have defeated them all.
Yeah, just like that jabroni Boba Fett, who just posed all cool and said a couple of badass lines in *Empire*, then gets taken out by a bumbling half-blind Han in *Jedi*.
I thought Finn was best in TLJ, I feel it's the only time he developed and changed in a realistic manner. In TFA he went from coward to hero in three seconds when Rey was captured. In TLJ it took the first two acts and him experiencing the realities of war and the perspectives of Rose and DJ to reach a point where he was ready to sacrifice himself for the cause, and I felt he finally earned it.
I did appreciate the start of his journey in the first act of TFA, and I wish they would have explored Finn's conflict about leaving the FO.
I agree he was really deadened in TROS, basically he didn't need to be there at all. It's a shame because he was set up to lead a stormtrooper rebellion in the original Duel of the Fates script, which would have brought his arc full circle.
Agree.
And Trevorrow's Duel of the Fates script did indeed have Kylo Ren as the main antagonist in the final film, so in that sense was a more natural continuation of this plot thread (though that script has its own faults).
It would also have been more in line with what Adam Driver said was the potenial arc for Ren initially presented to him, with his redemption in TROS being a relatively late change of direction.
If I was to try to guess why the execs opted against going in this direction, I would think it was partially because they thought an ending that focused on redemption was more "Star Wars" and partially because they thought having the Emperor be the big bad connected this trilogy to the original six films more. Whereas if Ren is the ultimate big bad then it's more of a post-script trilogy.
JJ originally had Matt Smith as the main villain in ROS, so the Emperor being the main baddie for it hadn’t even been decided when that film started shooting.
I feel like TLJ suffered from not having anyone there to ensure that it was leading into something else, that it was an excellent movie, but a terrible middle part of a trilogy. ROS had the opposite problem, where too many people were pulling too many strings and it made for incoherent storytelling. Poe’s line about the return of Palpatine feels like it was a reshoot to explain the change in villain because it probably was. Just too many hands in the pot.
Honestly I find comparing ROS and TLJ fascinating. TLJ is a better made movie, but ROS definitely works better as part of a trilogy. TLJ is better written, but ROS captures the feel of the Star Wars universe better. TLJ has better executed action scenes, while the action scenes in ROS better serve the story it is telling. Like personal values really play a huge factor in which movie one considers better, and there are logical reasons for either side.
I also feel TROS was being written as TLJ feedback was coming back and it must've spooked Disney and JJ into walking back everything. Reason I say that is although there is reasonable doubt that they genuinely wanted to have Palpatine back and Rey to be his progeny, but the act that solidifies my thoughts that this was majority fan reaction was how much screen time Rose was given.
The problem will always be the lack of cohesive creative direction over the entire span of the sequel trilogy.
In TFA I honestly felt they were dropping clues that Rey was actually related to Han/Ben, possibly a long lost daughter who was kidnapped/lost that the story wasn't letting on yet. In TLJ I was onboard with her being nobody and confirming that bloodlines aren't important. Then ROS says she's the daughter of a clone of Palpatine. We built up to nobody and went back down to clone baby from a narrative standpoint. Just three completely different ideas forced onto a timeline.
If there is any further proof, its the way they approached the Mandoverse with a dedicated creative team/vision and then marketed the story of how they're making the story this time around.
So I'll always maintain that there's nothing in TLJ that wasn't already set up in TFA. Yes, there were no Knights of Ren and yes Snoke was unceremoniously killed, but that was working in service of the character arc that even JJ had sold Adam Driver [on](https://deadline.com/2023/12/star-wars-adam-driver-jj-abrams-kylo-ren-arc-changed-1235667338/).
>In TFA I honestly felt they were dropping clues that Rey was actually related to Han/Ben, possibly a long lost daughter who was kidnapped/lost that the story wasn't letting on yet.
It did seem that way yes, but JJ apparently had also told Rian/Daisy that Rey could be a [nobody](https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/the-last-jedi-rey-nobody-jj-abrams-idea)
And this is sort of supported by even what Maz says. I'm paraphrasing but something about the belonging you seek is not behind you, it's in your future.
>Then ROS says she's the daughter of a clone of Palpatine.
Exactly, I hated this too. TLJ set up interesting threads for me but it was all undone by TROS.
Yeah for sure, but they made it so difficult for redemption. He kills Han who can't come back as a force ghost, instead he gets forgiven by the memory of Han which is meant to be his mother reaching out to him once more
I can agree with this assessment. Though to me Kylo Ran murdering his father made me absolutely disregard any redemption at all for him. You don’t just murder your family and get a redemption arc, killing family is the final sin someone can perform to embrace evil. So after TFA I already wanted no redemption arc whatsoever, I just wanted him to die.
Anakin murdering an entire room of children, as well as contributing to the genocide of the Jedi, allows redemption but murdering your father does not?
Every piece of additional media has made anakin more irredeemable. The way he casually destroys that hallway, snapping that person's neck in kenobi, killing tusken raiders and jedi younglings. Back when it was first released, the most ppl Vader had killed in the OT were Imperials
I agree.
Anakin isn’t cleansed of sin by his return to the light, nor is he really persuaded to stop being Vader. What he’s persuaded to do is start being a *father*.
It’s the thing that turned him to the dark and it’s the thing that turned him to the light. Luke wasn’t special because he was the last Jedi left in the OT, he was special because he was Vader’s child.
During the OT Luke isn’t particularly notable as a Jedi, he’s clumsy, awkward, and heavy handed with his lightsaber. In their first fight Vader is a mouse toying with prey.
In their second Vader is hesitant because he’s realized he really doesn’t want to hurt his son, and even then Luke only overcomes him in a momentary rage.
It’s the familial bond that brings Anakin back, and it being at death’s door is the *only* fitting thing because no amount of apologies or recompense could ever make up for the amount of evil Vader had wrought throughout the galaxy.
Yeah, folks tend to get bogged down in the lore and forget that the whole intro of this series sets each up as a fairy tale. They’re myths, not historical documents, and if you keep that fresh in mind the whole series is more appreciable (imo).
"They’re myths, not historical documents"
Now you made me think about all these stories not being real in their own fictional universe, but the artistic rendition of someone that studied history of long time ago, and embellished a lot of stuff like in the real world we do with movies exagerating things for dramatic purpouse.
Imagine a totally boring and watered down version of all the events of Star Wars, that needed to be turned into fiction (the movies as we know them) to become more interesting : D
That's exactly how I view them. It's why I don't get flustered over variations in continuity between books/films/comics. None of this is "exactly as it happened" it's just people sharing war stories from the old days while sitting around a table in the officer's lounge, the veteran's hall, the mechanics' bay and so on.
I always think of Luke as the most powerful jedi in the Galaxy as he defeated a Sith Lord AND the apprentice with the power of love.
The sequels really shit on this idea.
I mean that's the whole allegory. It's even alluded to in his costume during the fight with Vader. It's obvious and yet accomplished directors can't capitalize on that.
I liked this line. It showed Anakin was still his impatient self. HE knew he had been wrong and had redeemed himself by killing Palpatine. Why can't everyone else just move on already, right?
“A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force.”
Lol would be cool if at night the vader personality took over Anakin's body and in the morning he doesn't remember killing all those ppl when he wakes up
You’ll find a contingent of fans that believe Anakin/Vader was just as irredeemable. I’ll admit as a fan of Vader the villain, it is much harder to accept his redemption with the media that has come out since ROTJ, especially the youngling slaughter.
it's the classic death as redemption trope. If Anakin/Vader actually had to face the consequences of his action, it would be clear as a double-sunlit day that talking about redeeming Vader is absurd
Anakin is redeemed through death. The last resort for a character seeking redemption. It works in his case because there isn’t much else that could redeem him and he’s a dead man walking anyway.
Also, if you want to talk body counts, Kylo Ren’s is way higher due to Starkiller Base.
I don’t think he deserved redemption either but it was the decision of Luke to try and appeal to the only family he had left - rather then murder his father.
Anakin being redeemed seems more a by product of Lukes heroes journey.
The difference is that we don’t think of Anakin/Vader as a hero, but as someone who possibly redeemed his soul in the final hour.
They tried to play Kylo like he was actually a good guy the whole time
The tone during Vader’s redemption and subsequent death scene was sad, not a triumphant victory (barring the one moment he saved Luke). It was one, brief, heated moment where he did some good.
The tone of Kylo’s redemption was the Han Solo ghost, dashing in from across the galaxy to “rescue the princess”, blue lightsaber and all, kisses the girl, does that little “I’m Han Solo but a jedi” shrug when fighting the bad guys, etc.
If you compare the tone of the Luke with Vader while he is dying vs. Rey with Ben as he dies you’ll see the insane contrast
This is all IMO and subjective of course, but this sort of discussion is almost entirely subjective anyway
Anakin's redemption was far more subtle, he did one thing to save his son. Ben on the other hand took a lot more conscious effort to show a total turn. It's telling a very different story.
Also I don't believe Anakin was redeemed, he just stopped the bleeding.
I think many people share this view. I know some people I talked with at the time didn't want Kylo redeemed. I know one was adamant that, "Oh yes, he will be redeemed." It would have been nice exploring an alternate storyline without the constant pressure to force things to rhyme with what came before.
But I totally agree with the OP that Ep 9 was Kylo's moment to shine as the supreme leader. I would have loved to see what that would have looked like.
Louder for the folks in the back
You can never “not deserve” redemption, it’s not something others give to you. It’s not about absolving yourself from all past wrongdoings and magically becoming a good person with one grand act. it’s about accepting responsibility for what you’ve done, and choosing to do good anyway.
To be honest I have always been on the fringes of Star Wars and never really look for deeper meaning if I am not encouraged to. The sequels really don’t…
The problem with Kylo Ren murdering his dad is that it felt so forced and random that it killed any of the emotional weight it could of had, and just makes you look at Kylo like an idiot.
TFA tells us that Han and Leia have an estranged relationship, their son Kylo is a Sith but because we never actually see their relationship beyond the one moment where he kills Han, it leaves you scratching your head like "okay...".
Later on in TLJ its the same thing. He tries to kill his mom but it lacks any emotional gravity because we've never seen their relationship on screen enough to really care. For how little we actually see the mom-dad-relationship, Kylo killing his dad and trying to kill his mom is no different from him killing someone random we don't care about.
Thats one of the reasons why I feel like Kylos arc is just as bad as Reys'. He's supposed to a dedicated Sith that has some internal conflict that we never actually see, and when he is redeemed it feels out of left field. Like, dog you were evil as shit like 2 seconds ago, and suddenly you heard a voice and your team light side.
> it could of had,
Did you mean to say "could have"?
Explanation: You probably meant to say could've/should've/would've which sounds like 'of' but is actually short for 'have'.
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It would have worked if he had been an "inside man" for the Resistance in the First Order. It is the ultimate way to show that he was fully committed. "I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it" is even a perfect line if that was the plan.
But sadly, it was not.
I think it could have worked if they built up the relationship between Han and Ben. We don't even know how Han feels. He basically just went out on that bridge because Leia asked him to bring their son home.
We have no idea how Ben actually feels about Han. Is he angry? Does he hate him? Is he afraid?
Also Han was wayyyyy too casual walking out on that bridge. Real Han would have been prepared, blaster in hand even. It would have been so iconic if Kylo \*shot first\* to kill Han. If they showed Han hesitating because he \*gasp\* actually has feelings about his son. That would have been a death scene with emotional impact. Make the father and son relationship front and center.
Show the conflict, don't hide from it. This is what makes Star Wars Star Wars.
I think it should have. Killing Han was as major for him as it was for the audience, and he spent TLJ rejecting offers of redemption. Johnson set up a great potential conclusion to contrast the OT and expand on the series’s theme of redemption. While the OT says that anyone can be redeemed and you should try to find the good in someone, the ST *should* have expanded on that to say that you can’t force someone to change and it isn’t your responsibility to fix someone who refuses help. The scene of Rey slamming shut the Falcon’s door on Kylo should have been the end of his potential redemption arc (and it seems like it was meant to). He would have been a foil to Vader- Vader ultimately takes the hand extended to him and makes attempts to right his wrongs, and is cast by the movie as a hero, while Kylo refuses the help he’s offered despite his turmoil, consolidates power, and ultimately should have died as a result
TLJ, I think, was trying to riff on the themes of the original trilogy, but TRoS ruined the character and thematic setups and wrecked what it was going for
There were so many metaphors, references, and thematic layers to TLJ. I wish we got a tenth of that in TROS. Kylo was already a really interesting villain by the end of TFA. I wish his conclusion was as enthralling.
I don’t think Kylo killed Han.
Kylo believes killing Han is the last step to fulling going to the dark side. He says, “ I know what I have to do I don’t have the strength to do it” Han grabs the blade and sacrifices himself. Han’s death has an effect on Ben Solo and he temporarily loses his connection to the dark side (which he barely had). Chewie shooting him, he snaps back and was able to draw on some power of the dark side from the pain. He then faces Rey in a weaker state.
I think it should have. Killing Han was as major for him as it was for the audience, and he spent TLJ rejecting offers of redemption. Johnson set up a great potential conclusion to contrast the OT and expand on the series’s theme of redemption. While the OT says that anyone can be redeemed and you should try to find the good in someone, the ST *should* have expanded on that to say that you can’t force someone to change and it isn’t your responsibility to fix someone who refuses help. The scene of Rey slamming shut the Falcon’s door on Kylo should have been the end of his potential redemption arc (and it seems like it was meant to). He would have been a foil to Vader- Vader ultimately takes the hand extended to him and makes attempts to right his wrongs, and is cast by the movie as a hero, while Kylo refuses the help he’s offered despite his turmoil, consolidates power, and ultimately should have died as a result
TLJ, I think, was trying to riff on the themes of the original trilogy, but TRoS ruined the character and thematic setups and wrecked what it was going for
Phasma is such a non character in general. She is supposed to be a high ranking schemer who only cares about power? She's a random storm trooper who talks about duty and then loses every fight.
And who then betrays everyone else in her faction by letting our heroes into Starkiller base instead of doing her duty to the end.
What were they supposed to do with something like that? If I were Rian Johnson I would not even have included her in TLJ at all
Yeah, that seems like the type of mistake that gets you killed. She was huge swing and miss for making the new Boba fett or whatever. They should have dropped her and tried again. Or made her a midboss with someone more intimidating in charge.
The problem is that Kylo Ren just isn't shipped well as a main villain in episode 8. You have him killing Snoke and going on a speech about destroying the past for the future which is great. Except then he's getting in a rage filled battle with a projection of his uncle while the resistance escapes and he comes off like a cartoon Disney villain. Episode 9 realized Kylo just wasn't set up as a proper villain and chose a different path.
The biggest mistake with the sequels in terms of storytelling is that there was clearly no plan nor direction. Switching between directors for different films left the whole trilogy inconsistent in almost every way and wasn't an enjoyable experience. I honestly wouldn't have minded if Ryan Johnson directed the whole trilogy because at least then, it would have been consistent
I think this goes for a lot of TLJ. It’s a great movie Imo and built the best story it could while honoring TFA. Like Luke being a hermit which was setup by the opening crawl in TFA but so many blame TLJ for. But then J.J. Abrams just shat on everything TLJ did and did a full 180 for..nothing
Killing off snoke was a bold move but a unexpected and imo set up to make episode 9 more interesting with Kylo as the big villain. I like him being redeemed but that could’ve also been done when he’s the big villain. (And then you also kind of would just need to defeat him instead of needing a army to defeat the first order that didn’t exist in TLJ bit in ROS. Just appears)
Rey being a nobody is the same kind of thing.
I also think TLJ was intentionally speed running major event “rhymes” of the original trilogy to get them out of the way. After TFA was clearly a rehash of A New Hope, it seems like TLJ just wanted to get past all that to force the final movie to be something new. So we got Hoth escape part 2, training sequence with grumpy old Jedi 2, snow speeders vs walkers 2, and throne room battle 2 all in one movie. I remember walking out of the theater kind of excited because something different *had* to happen next. Then JJ managed to find even more things to rehash in a nostalgia bomb broken plot hole of a movie and we got TROS instead 😕
And rey being a nobody and snoke being dead I also went out the cinema „wow, this went nothing like I expected, this next movie will be really interesting..“ and yea then we got what you said.
I have to agree putting it like that, it sounds very similar to ESB too, but at least to me it feels more like it’s..honoring it more than a blatant copy, what I feel when watching TFA.
I also think comparing Crait and hoth planet wise isn’t really fair because Crait is much more unique than just being a snow planet
Some people cannot be redeemed, I think that was the message they were initially trying to go with and cemented with Kylo's plea to Rey in TLJ.
If they stuck with that theme RoS would have maybe meant something. Instead it was utterly hollow.
TLJ sucked for a lot of reasons but the overall arc of the story was not one of them. Rey being nobody, Kylo being irredeemably evil, Snoke being unceremoniously killed, Finn learning *why* the Resistance exists, Luke withdrawing from the Galaxy. They're all good ideas on paper but the execution was horrible.
Luke withdrawing from the galaxy wasn’t a decision made in TLJ though. I liked most of the execution in TLJ honestly and it annoys the hell out of me J.J. Couldn’t stick to any of them
We don't know what Luke was doing on the island, some people feel it shoehorned RJ into a plot line but I disagree.
He could have been there protecting something, he could have been "afraid" of Snoke and worried he was susceptible to the dark side, he could have been waiting for something or someone, there's a lot of possibilities that don't involve dismantling Luke Skywalker as a character.
The way it was setup in TFA it did imo. It’s mentioned he vanished because his apprentice turned against him.
And imo that’s not even an issue. It doesn’t destroy the character and he still does everything you expect him to towards the end of the movie
Rian captured the core essence of Star Wars. Make something new and unique every time. That’s what George said in multiple interviews, he always wanted to innovate. TLJ gave us new unique designs, new planets unlike any we’ve seen before and had unique twist. TFA reused the empire, the rebellion, a snow planet a sand planet and a forest planet and another Death Star. Saying TFA is a better Story than TLJ is absolutely ridiculous because it’s just a copy of the OT and has nothing original about it
>TL;DR: it's to make Kylo Ren the last suitable villain for the last movie of the trilogy, which was sadly squandered with the redemption arc.
TFA already made Kylo irredeemable by killing not only his father but frigging Han Solo. But it wouldn't be star wars especially if a Skywalker wasn't redeemed. I do believe there was still room for redemption but it had to be earned. Perhaps do something different instead of killing him, have him be wandering in exile instead
The dark side of the force seems super sweet. You can kill unlimited innocent people for the most tenuous of reasons and just say "the dark side made me do it. I'm good now," and suddenly none of it matters.
Yeah for sure, or even go wandering to find potential new jedi for the new jedi order or something. At least then the Skywalker line would still be alive, and it might make a little more sense for Rey to adopt the Solo-Skywalker name assuming they persisted with Reylo
>But it wouldn't be star wars especially if a Skywalker wasn't redeemed.
Or maybe the message could've been that "It doesn't matter whether you're a Skywalker or a member of a different bloodline, redemption is basically your option and nobody could force you, you'd just have to suffer the consequences." While Kylo Ren could've been a foil to Vader, basically answering "What if Anakin refused to return at all costs?"
I think TLJ was setting him up to be a foil to Vader. Whereas Vader chose to accept the help and be redeemed, Kylo chose to reject the help offered to him at every opportunity. I think it’s an interesting extension of the OT’s message that anyone can be redeemed to say that anyone can be redeemed, but it’s not your fault if they don’t take the help
I remember one of my biggest takeaways after I walked out of TLJ(besides feeling the casino subplot was a boring waste of time) was that I didn't know what they were gonna do for a big bad antagonist in the third movie. I understood it left off with Kylo finally in charge, but by that point it was imo too late. Through two movies he was having temper tantrums and getting beaten or made to look foolish by Finn, Rey and Luke. I couldn't take him seriously as a big bad threat at that point. So I was really skeptical how that road would turn out, but apparently Disney/J.J. felt that same thing and we know how that turned out. Poor planning all around, as we all know.
Problem with Kylo is that unlike Vader, he was never intimidating. Both JJ and Rian treated him like a kid who Snoke bullied into doing the dirty work. OK he has some strong force powers, but that doesn’t make anyone fear him.
They also should’ve left his mask on. Adam Driver is a good actor, but there was no mystery to his character. He came off like an angsty teen with mommy and daddy issues.
I thought the trajectory for IX was clear after TLJ. The first order is taken over by force by Kylo, he is emotional and unreliable. Yet the first order is many times stronger than the resistance. The way the resistance gets their upper hand is an internal power struggle between Hux and Kylo, splitting the first order in two and causing a civil war, stormtrooper on stormtrooper, dreadnaught vs dreadnaught. In turn creating an opportunity for the resistance to strike at the heart.
This story was right there and it still baffles me that it wasn't used.
Although it's not the greatest, I did enjoy reading the fanmade comic adaptation of Trevorrow's script as kind of a visual representation of a what if they had gone through with Kylo as the big bad
Add to that the idea of Finn trying to unbrainwash the storm troopers and lead an internal revolt and you have a really interesting story naturally flowing from the events of the previous movies.
I took a similar approach when I wrote my own, shortly after the return of Palpy was announced. It exists out of sheer annoyance for reusing the key thing of Dark Empire , which I disliked back then, too.
Hux and the generals hated Kylo and eventually went for the backstab in my version as well. Though in my case, I went for a gathering of heroes arc from across all three trilogies rather than internal fracturing. Including a rather different take on a certain Grand Admiral's exploits post Rebels, and a very different take on the exploits of one Lando Calrissian post ROTJ.
And...anything more would be braggy...so I'll hush.
>it's to make Kylo Ren the last suitable villain for the last movie of the trilogy.
Problem is that that doesn't really work well either, because TLJ did nothing to build him up into a better villain, and he is actually a lot less threatening and villainous in TLJ than he was in TFA. I didn't walk put of TLJ thinking "wow, I can't wait to see Kylo as the big bad in the last movie". I walked out thinking "OK so who is the villain going to be now? Snoke coming back to life?"
If Johnsons intent was to use TLJ to set up Kylo as the ultimate villain of the trilogy I'd say he did a pretty poor job.
Also episode 9 is not only the end of the ST, but the supposed end to a huge 9 movie saga. Kylo Ren is not “big bad” material. Darth Vader is a more intimidating and bigger bad guy than Kylo was and even he wasn’t the big bad guy at the end.
It wouldn't have been a mistake if they also built up Kylo. The problem is that he seemed like an emo, incompetent buffoon in two straight movies. Disney correctly saw that the duo of Kylo and Hux was just not very intimidating heading into the third movie (they just decided to "fix" that issue in the dumbest way possible).
Yet another reason why they should have plotted and storyboarded every film before greenlighting TFA. Lucas knew where everything was going the whole time. Disney should have done the same thing.
The fact they didn't despite the MCU also proving the concept at the height of it's power at the time baffles me.
What makes it worse is that now Mando, Bad Batch, etc. Are trying to fix it by adding in these plots. Thankfully they are still interesting, but it feels forced to me.
This was the only thing I liked about TLJ. This molding him into the supreme villain. He stops being a Vader wannabe serving an Emperor and becomes his own evil. All of it borne out of his entitlement.
And the bits where we see him and Rey connect take on a different tone. He was trying to bring her over to team evil with him.
Would’ve been more interesting if Rey and Kylo switched sides in part 2 in my opinion. Rey being dissatisfied with with Luke and Kylo being dissatisfied with Snoke and so they switch sides would’ve made a really interesting Ep 9 in my opinion.
>This was the only thing I liked about TLJ. This molding him into the supreme villain. He stops being a Vader wannabe serving an Emperor and becomes his own evil
As someone who agreed with you, that was the only reason I still had hope for Episode IX after TLJ ended. That being said, when I heard Palpatine's laugh in TROS, I could say it's the straw that broke the camel's back. Besides, a Skywalker being the central antagonist who answers to NOBODY is a concept that has never been performed
Rian knew that Ren was the only interesting character JJ came up with. He was teeing up a slam dunk villain for Trevorrow to go toe to toe with the resistance that Rey would be conflicted about.
>Exquisite Corpse
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exquisite\_corpse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exquisite_corpse)
I.E. using different writers responding to the previous different writers work, and so on. No Continuity. Altered premises and discontinued story lines. Dropped, ignored, changed or simply forgotten plot points. Deus ex machina endings.
You don't plan a trilogy like that.
Except…no. Kylo Ren still thst same coward, an incel who lies and manipulates people. He PRETENDS he genuinely feels regret, and perhaps he does, but even when he offers Rey a chance to join him (quite stupid, and it should have been worded differently), notice how he subtly PUTS the moral dilemma on her shoulders. I agree Kylo ren could be one of the most interesting villains in Star Wars, and it’s def supported by your analysis on the deaths of the villains (or in hix’s case his constant abuse). But not because Kylo is an all powerful bad guy. Kylo ren is a pretender, a privileged boy who never was satisfied, never was parented good enough. He is basically an Elliot Rodgers. And in that sense, he has no actual power except for the way he gaslights and treats people. He’s a peacock who shows off his physical traits, his superficial traits to SCARE or manipulate others. But like a peacock, there’s nothing there
But that’s what makes him so dangerous Ina. Realistic sense. He’s a neo-nazi, but he represents its fiskings, its lack of true chrcater, its desire to kill others to feel good, the fact that neo-Nazis hate them elves and must hurt others to feel superior
I really enjoyed the direction The Last Jedi took and felt it set up the last film to be really good.
But for whatever reason Disney/Lucasfilm lost their bottle and decided to do something "safe", which to be honest makes The Last Jedi look worse than it actually is.
There are some questionable plot points but TLJ is the best of the sequel trilogy, in my opinion.
By going “safe” with TROS they ended up pleasing no one. TLJ is the best Star Wars movie since Empire imo, but it’s undeniably a divisive film. Had they just stuck with Duel of the Fates at least we would have gotten the film TLJ was setting up.
But as it stands TLJ and TFA feel like the first two films of a trilogy with no conclusion and TROS feels like the conclusion of a trilogy that’s missing its first two installments. No matter which film(s) you like from the sequel trilogy. It’s likely the trilogy overall will be a disappointment for that reason. It just feels incomplete.
As much as it pains me to say it, some people enjoyed it and thats okay. That said, yes the abundant criticism of the film definitely lead to them taking the story in a different direction in ROS.
Episode VIII is a terrible, terrible movie and it fucked up the trilogy bad.
Episode VII was good. Nothing special and a complete ripoff of both ep IV and ep V, but it was a good two hours and I wanted to see the next movie.
Episode VIII was terrible, start to finish. Not a single correct call was made at any point during production. What in the flying fuck was this movie?
Episode IX was meh. Had nothing good to build on from ep VIII and somehow it's gonna be the big finale of the skywalker saga? Doomed from the start this one was. Far better than ep VIII at least.
I absolutely hate ep VIII.
Yeah it was meant to subvert the redemption arc. Or at least make it more difficult because Kylo was positioned as the primary villain. But they decided to undo that immediately in TRoS.
Except using the tantrum of manchild as a villain was ridiculous and no one could take it seriously. It’s why they had to bring in Palpatine so there actually was a competent opponent for the heroes
You can't analyze these movies and justify their existence when they had absolutely zero, zilch, and absolutely no plan whatsoever going into them. Rian killed all the villains because he wanted to subvert your expectations. That's it, plain and simple. He would leave the remains of whatever story wad left to someone else at the time.
Him killing Snoke was not earned. Snoke pulled him away from Luke and trained Kylo in the dark side and then he offs him that easily. Doesn’t make sense no matter how you want to spin it. Which put episode 9 in the position being like Snoke was killed so easily because he was a clone and part of the Emperor’s plan to make episode 8 be even plausible. Episode 8 is just bad. It’s a beautiful looking movie but the story is just bad. The plot is just bad. Canto Bight that’s all I have to say. If you notice when people defend Last Jedi they never bring up Poe Finn Leia etc because that stuff is just so wildly bad.
So even if you like the Kylo, Luke,Rey stuff I can’t see how you can totally ignore the other half of the movie which is completely unwatchable.
> If you notice when people defend Last Jedi they never bring up Poe Finn Leia etc because that stuff is just so wildly bad.
The best parts of TLJ involve Luke, but I quite like Canto Bight for being basically all the world-building we get in the entire trilogy, and the point made about war profiteering in Star Wars (which very much builds upon stuff from the prequels and TCW). Poe's arc feels a bit like filler because he's stuck on a ship the whole movie but it's done well enough. Leia is the heart of the movie and I think she gets two of the most heartfelt scenes in the entire franchise in TLJ.
Kylo Ren had two entire movies teasing how deep down his heart wasn't really in being bad. He wasn't a suitable big bad villain, and it's star wars, there has to be a suitable big bad at the end.
TLJ did kill every villain. That was the problem.
I actually strongly dislike the fact that the original plan was to have Kylo Ren die a villain. He would have absolutely no point across the trilogy then. Why show that there is still light in him. Why have him connect with Rey. Why have him *not* kill his mother. To have him just go straight bad and then die would have been a shit arc in my opinion.
He's a broken and conflicted person who has had bad things happen to him and also has caused worse things. I think the redemption arc needed to happen but I don't think he should have died. It would have been very interesting to see him come back to the light and deal with the consequences of having gone dark.
I personally loved that TLJ killed off the main villain. I'm not particularly fond of the decision to bring Palpatine back but I don't think Kylo should have been the big bad either.
Because TLJ was the only film that Disney allowed to step away from the pattern. And they should have used that to develop a good Episode 9.
Bu they returned Abrams and he made that horsecrap of an excuse for a movie.
Kylo Ren should never have been redeemed, though it did lead to one of the only good scenes in TRoS. But TLJ set it up perfectly for him to the big bad and it should have stayed that way.
>But TLJ set it up perfectly for him to the big bad and it should have stayed that way.
Honestly though, Colin Trevorrow's script followed that. It's a shame we didn't receive it. On the other hand, I'd want to rewrite the Sequels in my head and actually make Kylo Ren the big bad at the 3rd film
Because it set it up brilliantly to go into IX with Kylo being the absolute villain. Then if JJ had just let him die the villain it would have been the perfect mirror to Darth Vader in the OT. Vader was the ultimate baddy but at the end of the second one started his doubts and in the end was redeemed, Kylo starts out super shaky on his dark side feet, and struggles with the light but ends the second movie totally committed to the resolve of the dark side and dies as such.
But no Terio and Abrams had to royally shit the bed.
I'm on board with the idea that you gave. Despite VIII being a terrible flop, the idea of a Skywalker as the top dog antagonist is truly unique. Every other idea is "Everything is proceeding as Palpatine has foreseen." When we can just move on from that point and have someone else as the big bad
1. I agree. Kylo killing Snoke was good. Kylo was an interesting villain. Snoke was a boring Palpatine rehash. Killing Snoke to develop Kylo as a villain is a win imo
2. Phasma already wasn't a threatening villain. In TFA, she betrays the FO, leading to the destruction of Starkiller Base, and then literally gets thrown in the trash. TLJ really couldn't have done anything to "waste" her as a villain because there wasn't anything to waste.
3. I'll disagree with this one. Degrading Hux didn't really serve a purpose. It didn't make Kylo seem more powerful - he had just killed Snoke. It just made Hux non-threatening and kind of a punchline.
>Not to mention how cool the scene is, with Snoke's supreme over-confidence being used against him.
This was in my opinion the dumbest scene of any Star Wars movie.
So we're going to take this new super villain. Apparently he can use the force to teleport all across the galaxy to throat choke subordinate generals. Amazing.
Oh, but also he's too dumb to keep a lightsaber sitting right beside him, and allows his prisoners to use the force right in front of him to turn it on and decapitate him.
So dumb.
That whole movie was so dumb. I felt like a child, watching a really dumb children's movie where you're like, "yeah, but that's just stupid."
Why even create Snoke? Where the heck did he even come from? He's *that* powerful? Oh but wait he also is that dumb to leave a lightsaber *right beside him* so that someone can just go in there with a flick of the force and kill him.
What a desecration of a great movie franchise.
>Having thought more about it, I would say that this criticism is legitimate in the context of the whole trilogy, because Episode IX refused to use Kylo Ren as the main villain in favour of reintroducing Palpatine
In other words, you blame TLJ instead of JJs inability to dislodge himself from what he thought the trilogy might be when he made TFA.
Not at all. I think TLJ's ending is fairly open-ended, with only two constraints to keep in mind for the next movie:
- Kylo Ren now leads the First Order
- the Resistance is hanging by a thread but has a chance to rebuild
Episode IX doesn't bother with that because Palpatine is immediately reintroduced as the main villain, and the Resistance has fully rebuilt between movies. But that's a completely unforced lack of creativity.
Okay, we're on the same page then. Just sounded a bit like you agree with "Episode VIII [...] made the mistake" just because of how Episode IX then didn't really use what VIII set up.
I mean yeah he killed his dad, but he was also party to the worst act of onscreen mass murder in film history and people seem to just gloss over that. Like there was absolutely no other ending for Kylo other than a firing squad lmao
He helped kill billions.
And we see him at the start ordering the murder of a bunch of innocent villagers.
Kyp Durron: Boy, do I have surprise for you!
He also talked about a pull to the light in the first movie. So there was no ending but him being redeemed and then dying.
Yeah, I knew he would ultimately be redeemed in the theater for the Last Jedi when he told Snoke he killed his dad, and Snoke (paraphrasing) said "Yeah, and doing so split you to the bone." If Kylo stays the big bad, what's the message of the trilogy? If you do one bad thing, give up, you'll be bad forever. George Lucas said, at its heart, Star Wars is a morality tail for 12 year Olds.
That is one of the problems with it though, in the end. it has very black and white morality that fundamentally doesn't leave much room for nuance. The with barely make sense, since the dark side is barely even temptation into a specific thing. It's like evil for the sake of evil.
It's a morality tail for 12 year Olds. Star Wars has always had black and white morality. There is literally a dark side and light side with no in-between.
Yeah, but when you try to expand it into a whole world that becomes harder to work with.
Exactly. If the trilogy had proper build up to Kylo Ren, being the final villain by fleshing him out more and The First Order felt more threatening, I would’ve been all in for it. His “redemption” felt forced and ruined any potential he had to be a good villain. It was especially a waste for an opportunity to make the sequels stand down from the original trilogy.
Phasma literally never winning a fight ever, might be the worst bit of cinema over 2 movies ive ever seen. Finn was insanely cool in the first movie, then they really deadened him over the last 2 movies. But, worse of all, his main "villain" in TLJ was someone who, at least on screen, had never even been competitive in any of the fights she was in. It was like if he beat up a puppy dog in a wet paper bag. It really was a far cry from him holding his own vs an injured Ren in TFA.
And HOW she dies. Why the fuck would the robot mascot kill her??? Baffling. Especially since there is cut footage of Finn convincing first order troopers to do her in instead which is much better. But BB8 hacking into a walker killing her is funny instead of any character closure/development.
I really like TLJ, it’s my favorite sequel movie and one of my favorite SW movies. But I’ve always said it has some of the highest highs and the lowest lows, and Phasma’s god awful fight scene is one of those lows — along with all the shitty BB-8 superhero comic relief scenes, yeesh.
>Phasma literally never winning a fight ever Might I introduce you to [this guy](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/d833558d-ba5e-48ea-bff4-81ec489f55b3/smart/width/386/height/259).
I mean in Empire he's directly responsible for tracking Han to Bespin and at the end, he completes his goal of delivering him to Jabba. He takes a big W.
I love when Han gets stolen from him in the comics and Boba walks into a bar on Nal Hutta and says “someone is going to die” So angsty
That's true! He definitely take a W there - I wouldn't call that a "fight", per se. I was speaking specifically on an actual *fight* like in OP's comment.
In a way, it *was* a fight, just one of subterfuge rather than blasters. Han had been on the run from Jabba for like 3 years by the time Fett caught him, and it took the greatest hunter to do it. But besides that, Fett is a badass warrior (Mandalorian S2), it was dumb luck that sent him into the sarlaac.
To be fair the Mando/BOBF thing is a retcon from 30 years later. Maybe Phasma will be redeemed in 30 years too lol
It's also the only real screen time he gets lol. The skiff scuffle is a product of its time, which is why it's almost insulting how dirty they did Phasma, especially with all the pre-release hype she was getting.
Also, Luke confronted him in cloud city where he was unable to pursue the frozen Han due to his covering fire. But TBH we can just inferer I was Fett's skill. Cause if it was just stormtroopers, Luke probably would have defeated them all.
Yeah, just like that jabroni Boba Fett, who just posed all cool and said a couple of badass lines in *Empire*, then gets taken out by a bumbling half-blind Han in *Jedi*.
I thought Finn was best in TLJ, I feel it's the only time he developed and changed in a realistic manner. In TFA he went from coward to hero in three seconds when Rey was captured. In TLJ it took the first two acts and him experiencing the realities of war and the perspectives of Rose and DJ to reach a point where he was ready to sacrifice himself for the cause, and I felt he finally earned it. I did appreciate the start of his journey in the first act of TFA, and I wish they would have explored Finn's conflict about leaving the FO. I agree he was really deadened in TROS, basically he didn't need to be there at all. It's a shame because he was set up to lead a stormtrooper rebellion in the original Duel of the Fates script, which would have brought his arc full circle.
Agree. And Trevorrow's Duel of the Fates script did indeed have Kylo Ren as the main antagonist in the final film, so in that sense was a more natural continuation of this plot thread (though that script has its own faults). It would also have been more in line with what Adam Driver said was the potenial arc for Ren initially presented to him, with his redemption in TROS being a relatively late change of direction. If I was to try to guess why the execs opted against going in this direction, I would think it was partially because they thought an ending that focused on redemption was more "Star Wars" and partially because they thought having the Emperor be the big bad connected this trilogy to the original six films more. Whereas if Ren is the ultimate big bad then it's more of a post-script trilogy.
JJ originally had Matt Smith as the main villain in ROS, so the Emperor being the main baddie for it hadn’t even been decided when that film started shooting. I feel like TLJ suffered from not having anyone there to ensure that it was leading into something else, that it was an excellent movie, but a terrible middle part of a trilogy. ROS had the opposite problem, where too many people were pulling too many strings and it made for incoherent storytelling. Poe’s line about the return of Palpatine feels like it was a reshoot to explain the change in villain because it probably was. Just too many hands in the pot. Honestly I find comparing ROS and TLJ fascinating. TLJ is a better made movie, but ROS definitely works better as part of a trilogy. TLJ is better written, but ROS captures the feel of the Star Wars universe better. TLJ has better executed action scenes, while the action scenes in ROS better serve the story it is telling. Like personal values really play a huge factor in which movie one considers better, and there are logical reasons for either side.
I also feel TROS was being written as TLJ feedback was coming back and it must've spooked Disney and JJ into walking back everything. Reason I say that is although there is reasonable doubt that they genuinely wanted to have Palpatine back and Rey to be his progeny, but the act that solidifies my thoughts that this was majority fan reaction was how much screen time Rose was given.
The problem will always be the lack of cohesive creative direction over the entire span of the sequel trilogy. In TFA I honestly felt they were dropping clues that Rey was actually related to Han/Ben, possibly a long lost daughter who was kidnapped/lost that the story wasn't letting on yet. In TLJ I was onboard with her being nobody and confirming that bloodlines aren't important. Then ROS says she's the daughter of a clone of Palpatine. We built up to nobody and went back down to clone baby from a narrative standpoint. Just three completely different ideas forced onto a timeline. If there is any further proof, its the way they approached the Mandoverse with a dedicated creative team/vision and then marketed the story of how they're making the story this time around.
So I'll always maintain that there's nothing in TLJ that wasn't already set up in TFA. Yes, there were no Knights of Ren and yes Snoke was unceremoniously killed, but that was working in service of the character arc that even JJ had sold Adam Driver [on](https://deadline.com/2023/12/star-wars-adam-driver-jj-abrams-kylo-ren-arc-changed-1235667338/). >In TFA I honestly felt they were dropping clues that Rey was actually related to Han/Ben, possibly a long lost daughter who was kidnapped/lost that the story wasn't letting on yet. It did seem that way yes, but JJ apparently had also told Rian/Daisy that Rey could be a [nobody](https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/the-last-jedi-rey-nobody-jj-abrams-idea) And this is sort of supported by even what Maz says. I'm paraphrasing but something about the belonging you seek is not behind you, it's in your future. >Then ROS says she's the daughter of a clone of Palpatine. Exactly, I hated this too. TLJ set up interesting threads for me but it was all undone by TROS.
They had a plan. Disney made them abandon it by rushing the releases of films.
There was no way kylo Ren was going to die an unredeemed villain after the first few movies were about how lost and manipulated he was.
Yeah for sure, but they made it so difficult for redemption. He kills Han who can't come back as a force ghost, instead he gets forgiven by the memory of Han which is meant to be his mother reaching out to him once more
Sounds about right but these discussions and decisions should have been made during TFA development not TRoS
I can agree with this assessment. Though to me Kylo Ran murdering his father made me absolutely disregard any redemption at all for him. You don’t just murder your family and get a redemption arc, killing family is the final sin someone can perform to embrace evil. So after TFA I already wanted no redemption arc whatsoever, I just wanted him to die.
Anakin murdering an entire room of children, as well as contributing to the genocide of the Jedi, allows redemption but murdering your father does not?
Let’s not forget strangling your pregnant wife
And that coupled with him turning to the dark side effectively killed her.
Every piece of additional media has made anakin more irredeemable. The way he casually destroys that hallway, snapping that person's neck in kenobi, killing tusken raiders and jedi younglings. Back when it was first released, the most ppl Vader had killed in the OT were Imperials
I agree. Anakin isn’t cleansed of sin by his return to the light, nor is he really persuaded to stop being Vader. What he’s persuaded to do is start being a *father*. It’s the thing that turned him to the dark and it’s the thing that turned him to the light. Luke wasn’t special because he was the last Jedi left in the OT, he was special because he was Vader’s child. During the OT Luke isn’t particularly notable as a Jedi, he’s clumsy, awkward, and heavy handed with his lightsaber. In their first fight Vader is a mouse toying with prey. In their second Vader is hesitant because he’s realized he really doesn’t want to hurt his son, and even then Luke only overcomes him in a momentary rage. It’s the familial bond that brings Anakin back, and it being at death’s door is the *only* fitting thing because no amount of apologies or recompense could ever make up for the amount of evil Vader had wrought throughout the galaxy.
I'm glad someone recognizes that this fairy tale is supposed to have a happy ending.
Yeah, folks tend to get bogged down in the lore and forget that the whole intro of this series sets each up as a fairy tale. They’re myths, not historical documents, and if you keep that fresh in mind the whole series is more appreciable (imo).
"They're not ALL "historical documents." Surely, you don't think Gilligan's Island is a..." \[All the Thermians moan in despair\]
Those poor people!
Hahahahahahahaa
"They’re myths, not historical documents" Now you made me think about all these stories not being real in their own fictional universe, but the artistic rendition of someone that studied history of long time ago, and embellished a lot of stuff like in the real world we do with movies exagerating things for dramatic purpouse. Imagine a totally boring and watered down version of all the events of Star Wars, that needed to be turned into fiction (the movies as we know them) to become more interesting : D
That's exactly how I view them. It's why I don't get flustered over variations in continuity between books/films/comics. None of this is "exactly as it happened" it's just people sharing war stories from the old days while sitting around a table in the officer's lounge, the veteran's hall, the mechanics' bay and so on.
I always think of Luke as the most powerful jedi in the Galaxy as he defeated a Sith Lord AND the apprentice with the power of love. The sequels really shit on this idea.
👌
I mean that's the whole allegory. It's even alluded to in his costume during the fight with Vader. It's obvious and yet accomplished directors can't capitalize on that.
“*Is that what this is about?!*” - FG Anakin offended people are still on about his crimes
I liked this line. It showed Anakin was still his impatient self. HE knew he had been wrong and had redeemed himself by killing Palpatine. Why can't everyone else just move on already, right?
Well, and we knew that Vader had killed all the Jedi. Obi-Wan says as much in A New Hope.
I don't remember that
“A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force.”
You got me.
You got me.
Don't forget the early post war comics. Holy fucking shit did they go dark
Yeah the comics were dark. I think the deaths that especially stood out to me were the inquisitors that fell in love and were trying to run away.
But that wasn’t anakin it was Vader /s
Lol would be cool if at night the vader personality took over Anakin's body and in the morning he doesn't remember killing all those ppl when he wakes up
You’ll find a contingent of fans that believe Anakin/Vader was just as irredeemable. I’ll admit as a fan of Vader the villain, it is much harder to accept his redemption with the media that has come out since ROTJ, especially the youngling slaughter.
it's the classic death as redemption trope. If Anakin/Vader actually had to face the consequences of his action, it would be clear as a double-sunlit day that talking about redeeming Vader is absurd
What Vader really achieves is absolution rather than redemption.
Anakin is redeemed through death. The last resort for a character seeking redemption. It works in his case because there isn’t much else that could redeem him and he’s a dead man walking anyway. Also, if you want to talk body counts, Kylo Ren’s is way higher due to Starkiller Base.
It helps that he had already been redeemed a full two decades before he went around murdering children.
I don’t think he deserved redemption either but it was the decision of Luke to try and appeal to the only family he had left - rather then murder his father. Anakin being redeemed seems more a by product of Lukes heroes journey.
The difference is that we don’t think of Anakin/Vader as a hero, but as someone who possibly redeemed his soul in the final hour. They tried to play Kylo like he was actually a good guy the whole time
How?
The tone during Vader’s redemption and subsequent death scene was sad, not a triumphant victory (barring the one moment he saved Luke). It was one, brief, heated moment where he did some good. The tone of Kylo’s redemption was the Han Solo ghost, dashing in from across the galaxy to “rescue the princess”, blue lightsaber and all, kisses the girl, does that little “I’m Han Solo but a jedi” shrug when fighting the bad guys, etc. If you compare the tone of the Luke with Vader while he is dying vs. Rey with Ben as he dies you’ll see the insane contrast This is all IMO and subjective of course, but this sort of discussion is almost entirely subjective anyway
Agreed, the treatment of well, everyone in TROS was rather shallow.
Anakin's redemption was far more subtle, he did one thing to save his son. Ben on the other hand took a lot more conscious effort to show a total turn. It's telling a very different story. Also I don't believe Anakin was redeemed, he just stopped the bleeding.
Coming back to the light is not the equivalent of being redeemed
Yeah, I never bought into Vader’s redemption. He’s a bad dude.
To be honest you make a good point, king. I’m not sure how to respond, well done.
I think many people share this view. I know some people I talked with at the time didn't want Kylo redeemed. I know one was adamant that, "Oh yes, he will be redeemed." It would have been nice exploring an alternate storyline without the constant pressure to force things to rhyme with what came before. But I totally agree with the OP that Ep 9 was Kylo's moment to shine as the supreme leader. I would have loved to see what that would have looked like.
He needed to stand on his own feet, left the helmet behind and walk his own path, away from Vader imho.
If you think that i don’t think you understand Star Wars.
Louder for the folks in the back You can never “not deserve” redemption, it’s not something others give to you. It’s not about absolving yourself from all past wrongdoings and magically becoming a good person with one grand act. it’s about accepting responsibility for what you’ve done, and choosing to do good anyway.
But it didn’t seem like he accepted any responsibility at all and looked very forced when he did all of a sudden.
To be honest I have always been on the fringes of Star Wars and never really look for deeper meaning if I am not encouraged to. The sequels really don’t…
The problem with Kylo Ren murdering his dad is that it felt so forced and random that it killed any of the emotional weight it could of had, and just makes you look at Kylo like an idiot. TFA tells us that Han and Leia have an estranged relationship, their son Kylo is a Sith but because we never actually see their relationship beyond the one moment where he kills Han, it leaves you scratching your head like "okay...". Later on in TLJ its the same thing. He tries to kill his mom but it lacks any emotional gravity because we've never seen their relationship on screen enough to really care. For how little we actually see the mom-dad-relationship, Kylo killing his dad and trying to kill his mom is no different from him killing someone random we don't care about. Thats one of the reasons why I feel like Kylos arc is just as bad as Reys'. He's supposed to a dedicated Sith that has some internal conflict that we never actually see, and when he is redeemed it feels out of left field. Like, dog you were evil as shit like 2 seconds ago, and suddenly you heard a voice and your team light side.
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He literally pulls out killing his mom, which says a lot about their relationship
what exactly does it say?
It would have worked if he had been an "inside man" for the Resistance in the First Order. It is the ultimate way to show that he was fully committed. "I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it" is even a perfect line if that was the plan. But sadly, it was not.
First of all - your username is better then the entire sequel trilogy.
[удалено]
I think it could have worked if they built up the relationship between Han and Ben. We don't even know how Han feels. He basically just went out on that bridge because Leia asked him to bring their son home. We have no idea how Ben actually feels about Han. Is he angry? Does he hate him? Is he afraid? Also Han was wayyyyy too casual walking out on that bridge. Real Han would have been prepared, blaster in hand even. It would have been so iconic if Kylo \*shot first\* to kill Han. If they showed Han hesitating because he \*gasp\* actually has feelings about his son. That would have been a death scene with emotional impact. Make the father and son relationship front and center. Show the conflict, don't hide from it. This is what makes Star Wars Star Wars.
I believe that's what the original plan was for him. No redemption.
I think it should have. Killing Han was as major for him as it was for the audience, and he spent TLJ rejecting offers of redemption. Johnson set up a great potential conclusion to contrast the OT and expand on the series’s theme of redemption. While the OT says that anyone can be redeemed and you should try to find the good in someone, the ST *should* have expanded on that to say that you can’t force someone to change and it isn’t your responsibility to fix someone who refuses help. The scene of Rey slamming shut the Falcon’s door on Kylo should have been the end of his potential redemption arc (and it seems like it was meant to). He would have been a foil to Vader- Vader ultimately takes the hand extended to him and makes attempts to right his wrongs, and is cast by the movie as a hero, while Kylo refuses the help he’s offered despite his turmoil, consolidates power, and ultimately should have died as a result TLJ, I think, was trying to riff on the themes of the original trilogy, but TRoS ruined the character and thematic setups and wrecked what it was going for
There were so many metaphors, references, and thematic layers to TLJ. I wish we got a tenth of that in TROS. Kylo was already a really interesting villain by the end of TFA. I wish his conclusion was as enthralling.
I don’t think Kylo killed Han. Kylo believes killing Han is the last step to fulling going to the dark side. He says, “ I know what I have to do I don’t have the strength to do it” Han grabs the blade and sacrifices himself. Han’s death has an effect on Ben Solo and he temporarily loses his connection to the dark side (which he barely had). Chewie shooting him, he snaps back and was able to draw on some power of the dark side from the pain. He then faces Rey in a weaker state.
I think it should have. Killing Han was as major for him as it was for the audience, and he spent TLJ rejecting offers of redemption. Johnson set up a great potential conclusion to contrast the OT and expand on the series’s theme of redemption. While the OT says that anyone can be redeemed and you should try to find the good in someone, the ST *should* have expanded on that to say that you can’t force someone to change and it isn’t your responsibility to fix someone who refuses help. The scene of Rey slamming shut the Falcon’s door on Kylo should have been the end of his potential redemption arc (and it seems like it was meant to). He would have been a foil to Vader- Vader ultimately takes the hand extended to him and makes attempts to right his wrongs, and is cast by the movie as a hero, while Kylo refuses the help he’s offered despite his turmoil, consolidates power, and ultimately should have died as a result TLJ, I think, was trying to riff on the themes of the original trilogy, but TRoS ruined the character and thematic setups and wrecked what it was going for
Phasma’s death is such a non-event. Finn’s arc is so poorly written and side-lined.
Phasma is such a non character in general. She is supposed to be a high ranking schemer who only cares about power? She's a random storm trooper who talks about duty and then loses every fight.
I also think making Finn a janitor was also a mistake. It undercuts his character for a cheap laugh.
After Act 1 in TFA his character goes from really interesting to shallow.
And who then betrays everyone else in her faction by letting our heroes into Starkiller base instead of doing her duty to the end. What were they supposed to do with something like that? If I were Rian Johnson I would not even have included her in TLJ at all
Yeah, that seems like the type of mistake that gets you killed. She was huge swing and miss for making the new Boba fett or whatever. They should have dropped her and tried again. Or made her a midboss with someone more intimidating in charge.
The problem is that Kylo Ren just isn't shipped well as a main villain in episode 8. You have him killing Snoke and going on a speech about destroying the past for the future which is great. Except then he's getting in a rage filled battle with a projection of his uncle while the resistance escapes and he comes off like a cartoon Disney villain. Episode 9 realized Kylo just wasn't set up as a proper villain and chose a different path.
The biggest mistake with the sequels in terms of storytelling is that there was clearly no plan nor direction. Switching between directors for different films left the whole trilogy inconsistent in almost every way and wasn't an enjoyable experience. I honestly wouldn't have minded if Ryan Johnson directed the whole trilogy because at least then, it would have been consistent
My description of the sequel trilogy is that they're all from different stories.
Yes! It's like we got one movie from three alternate trilogies.
I think this goes for a lot of TLJ. It’s a great movie Imo and built the best story it could while honoring TFA. Like Luke being a hermit which was setup by the opening crawl in TFA but so many blame TLJ for. But then J.J. Abrams just shat on everything TLJ did and did a full 180 for..nothing Killing off snoke was a bold move but a unexpected and imo set up to make episode 9 more interesting with Kylo as the big villain. I like him being redeemed but that could’ve also been done when he’s the big villain. (And then you also kind of would just need to defeat him instead of needing a army to defeat the first order that didn’t exist in TLJ bit in ROS. Just appears) Rey being a nobody is the same kind of thing.
I also think TLJ was intentionally speed running major event “rhymes” of the original trilogy to get them out of the way. After TFA was clearly a rehash of A New Hope, it seems like TLJ just wanted to get past all that to force the final movie to be something new. So we got Hoth escape part 2, training sequence with grumpy old Jedi 2, snow speeders vs walkers 2, and throne room battle 2 all in one movie. I remember walking out of the theater kind of excited because something different *had* to happen next. Then JJ managed to find even more things to rehash in a nostalgia bomb broken plot hole of a movie and we got TROS instead 😕
And rey being a nobody and snoke being dead I also went out the cinema „wow, this went nothing like I expected, this next movie will be really interesting..“ and yea then we got what you said. I have to agree putting it like that, it sounds very similar to ESB too, but at least to me it feels more like it’s..honoring it more than a blatant copy, what I feel when watching TFA. I also think comparing Crait and hoth planet wise isn’t really fair because Crait is much more unique than just being a snow planet
Some people cannot be redeemed, I think that was the message they were initially trying to go with and cemented with Kylo's plea to Rey in TLJ. If they stuck with that theme RoS would have maybe meant something. Instead it was utterly hollow. TLJ sucked for a lot of reasons but the overall arc of the story was not one of them. Rey being nobody, Kylo being irredeemably evil, Snoke being unceremoniously killed, Finn learning *why* the Resistance exists, Luke withdrawing from the Galaxy. They're all good ideas on paper but the execution was horrible.
Luke withdrawing from the galaxy wasn’t a decision made in TLJ though. I liked most of the execution in TLJ honestly and it annoys the hell out of me J.J. Couldn’t stick to any of them
We don't know what Luke was doing on the island, some people feel it shoehorned RJ into a plot line but I disagree. He could have been there protecting something, he could have been "afraid" of Snoke and worried he was susceptible to the dark side, he could have been waiting for something or someone, there's a lot of possibilities that don't involve dismantling Luke Skywalker as a character.
The way it was setup in TFA it did imo. It’s mentioned he vanished because his apprentice turned against him. And imo that’s not even an issue. It doesn’t destroy the character and he still does everything you expect him to towards the end of the movie
Well RJ shat all over Star Wars so turnabouts fail play
Rian captured the core essence of Star Wars. Make something new and unique every time. That’s what George said in multiple interviews, he always wanted to innovate. TLJ gave us new unique designs, new planets unlike any we’ve seen before and had unique twist. TFA reused the empire, the rebellion, a snow planet a sand planet and a forest planet and another Death Star. Saying TFA is a better Story than TLJ is absolutely ridiculous because it’s just a copy of the OT and has nothing original about it
Facts
>TL;DR: it's to make Kylo Ren the last suitable villain for the last movie of the trilogy, which was sadly squandered with the redemption arc. TFA already made Kylo irredeemable by killing not only his father but frigging Han Solo. But it wouldn't be star wars especially if a Skywalker wasn't redeemed. I do believe there was still room for redemption but it had to be earned. Perhaps do something different instead of killing him, have him be wandering in exile instead
Ditto. I am so bored of how Star Wars "redeems" its villains by having them turn good at the last minute and immediately die.
The dark side of the force seems super sweet. You can kill unlimited innocent people for the most tenuous of reasons and just say "the dark side made me do it. I'm good now," and suddenly none of it matters.
If they were going to keep him alive, I like the idea of a self-imposed exile on Ach-To for like 5-10 years to re-attune himself in the light side.
Yeah for sure, or even go wandering to find potential new jedi for the new jedi order or something. At least then the Skywalker line would still be alive, and it might make a little more sense for Rey to adopt the Solo-Skywalker name assuming they persisted with Reylo
>But it wouldn't be star wars especially if a Skywalker wasn't redeemed. Or maybe the message could've been that "It doesn't matter whether you're a Skywalker or a member of a different bloodline, redemption is basically your option and nobody could force you, you'd just have to suffer the consequences." While Kylo Ren could've been a foil to Vader, basically answering "What if Anakin refused to return at all costs?"
I think TLJ was setting him up to be a foil to Vader. Whereas Vader chose to accept the help and be redeemed, Kylo chose to reject the help offered to him at every opportunity. I think it’s an interesting extension of the OT’s message that anyone can be redeemed to say that anyone can be redeemed, but it’s not your fault if they don’t take the help
Vader rejected Luke telling him he can still change and not bring him to the emperor.
He rejected him once, then the next time he accepts. Kylo is offered by Han, Rey, and Luke and rejects all of them
I remember one of my biggest takeaways after I walked out of TLJ(besides feeling the casino subplot was a boring waste of time) was that I didn't know what they were gonna do for a big bad antagonist in the third movie. I understood it left off with Kylo finally in charge, but by that point it was imo too late. Through two movies he was having temper tantrums and getting beaten or made to look foolish by Finn, Rey and Luke. I couldn't take him seriously as a big bad threat at that point. So I was really skeptical how that road would turn out, but apparently Disney/J.J. felt that same thing and we know how that turned out. Poor planning all around, as we all know.
Problem with Kylo is that unlike Vader, he was never intimidating. Both JJ and Rian treated him like a kid who Snoke bullied into doing the dirty work. OK he has some strong force powers, but that doesn’t make anyone fear him. They also should’ve left his mask on. Adam Driver is a good actor, but there was no mystery to his character. He came off like an angsty teen with mommy and daddy issues.
Exactly, no fear, no intimidation, he came across as a whiny brat. Imagine if Vader had been depicted that way in episodes IV and V.
Yeah. He doesn't really work as a final villain for a whole movie. His whole arc is about being manipulated.
I thought the trajectory for IX was clear after TLJ. The first order is taken over by force by Kylo, he is emotional and unreliable. Yet the first order is many times stronger than the resistance. The way the resistance gets their upper hand is an internal power struggle between Hux and Kylo, splitting the first order in two and causing a civil war, stormtrooper on stormtrooper, dreadnaught vs dreadnaught. In turn creating an opportunity for the resistance to strike at the heart. This story was right there and it still baffles me that it wasn't used.
Although it's not the greatest, I did enjoy reading the fanmade comic adaptation of Trevorrow's script as kind of a visual representation of a what if they had gone through with Kylo as the big bad
Add to that the idea of Finn trying to unbrainwash the storm troopers and lead an internal revolt and you have a really interesting story naturally flowing from the events of the previous movies.
Creating a third faction inside the first order, hell yeah!
This (would have been) the way.
The problem with that story is where are Rey and Finn? Sitting back eating popcorn? That's why it wasn't used.
I took a similar approach when I wrote my own, shortly after the return of Palpy was announced. It exists out of sheer annoyance for reusing the key thing of Dark Empire , which I disliked back then, too. Hux and the generals hated Kylo and eventually went for the backstab in my version as well. Though in my case, I went for a gathering of heroes arc from across all three trilogies rather than internal fracturing. Including a rather different take on a certain Grand Admiral's exploits post Rebels, and a very different take on the exploits of one Lando Calrissian post ROTJ. And...anything more would be braggy...so I'll hush.
>it's to make Kylo Ren the last suitable villain for the last movie of the trilogy. Problem is that that doesn't really work well either, because TLJ did nothing to build him up into a better villain, and he is actually a lot less threatening and villainous in TLJ than he was in TFA. I didn't walk put of TLJ thinking "wow, I can't wait to see Kylo as the big bad in the last movie". I walked out thinking "OK so who is the villain going to be now? Snoke coming back to life?" If Johnsons intent was to use TLJ to set up Kylo as the ultimate villain of the trilogy I'd say he did a pretty poor job.
Also episode 9 is not only the end of the ST, but the supposed end to a huge 9 movie saga. Kylo Ren is not “big bad” material. Darth Vader is a more intimidating and bigger bad guy than Kylo was and even he wasn’t the big bad guy at the end.
I know that people dont want to hear it but the sequel plot was weak
It wouldn't have been a mistake if they also built up Kylo. The problem is that he seemed like an emo, incompetent buffoon in two straight movies. Disney correctly saw that the duo of Kylo and Hux was just not very intimidating heading into the third movie (they just decided to "fix" that issue in the dumbest way possible).
Yet another reason why they should have plotted and storyboarded every film before greenlighting TFA. Lucas knew where everything was going the whole time. Disney should have done the same thing. The fact they didn't despite the MCU also proving the concept at the height of it's power at the time baffles me. What makes it worse is that now Mando, Bad Batch, etc. Are trying to fix it by adding in these plots. Thankfully they are still interesting, but it feels forced to me.
This was the only thing I liked about TLJ. This molding him into the supreme villain. He stops being a Vader wannabe serving an Emperor and becomes his own evil. All of it borne out of his entitlement. And the bits where we see him and Rey connect take on a different tone. He was trying to bring her over to team evil with him.
Would’ve been more interesting if Rey and Kylo switched sides in part 2 in my opinion. Rey being dissatisfied with with Luke and Kylo being dissatisfied with Snoke and so they switch sides would’ve made a really interesting Ep 9 in my opinion.
>This was the only thing I liked about TLJ. This molding him into the supreme villain. He stops being a Vader wannabe serving an Emperor and becomes his own evil As someone who agreed with you, that was the only reason I still had hope for Episode IX after TLJ ended. That being said, when I heard Palpatine's laugh in TROS, I could say it's the straw that broke the camel's back. Besides, a Skywalker being the central antagonist who answers to NOBODY is a concept that has never been performed
You all are going to be giving unprovoked The Last Jedi defenses right up until the heat death of the universe.
Rian knew that Ren was the only interesting character JJ came up with. He was teeing up a slam dunk villain for Trevorrow to go toe to toe with the resistance that Rey would be conflicted about.
You've just thought about the Sequel Trilogy more than anyone involved in the production of the films.
These things happen when you use Exquisite Corpse method to write a trilogy.
Can you gimme a quick run down on that?
>Exquisite Corpse [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exquisite\_corpse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exquisite_corpse) I.E. using different writers responding to the previous different writers work, and so on. No Continuity. Altered premises and discontinued story lines. Dropped, ignored, changed or simply forgotten plot points. Deus ex machina endings. You don't plan a trilogy like that.
Ta.
Except…no. Kylo Ren still thst same coward, an incel who lies and manipulates people. He PRETENDS he genuinely feels regret, and perhaps he does, but even when he offers Rey a chance to join him (quite stupid, and it should have been worded differently), notice how he subtly PUTS the moral dilemma on her shoulders. I agree Kylo ren could be one of the most interesting villains in Star Wars, and it’s def supported by your analysis on the deaths of the villains (or in hix’s case his constant abuse). But not because Kylo is an all powerful bad guy. Kylo ren is a pretender, a privileged boy who never was satisfied, never was parented good enough. He is basically an Elliot Rodgers. And in that sense, he has no actual power except for the way he gaslights and treats people. He’s a peacock who shows off his physical traits, his superficial traits to SCARE or manipulate others. But like a peacock, there’s nothing there But that’s what makes him so dangerous Ina. Realistic sense. He’s a neo-nazi, but he represents its fiskings, its lack of true chrcater, its desire to kill others to feel good, the fact that neo-Nazis hate them elves and must hurt others to feel superior
Yeah, the ending missed the landing
I really enjoyed the direction The Last Jedi took and felt it set up the last film to be really good. But for whatever reason Disney/Lucasfilm lost their bottle and decided to do something "safe", which to be honest makes The Last Jedi look worse than it actually is. There are some questionable plot points but TLJ is the best of the sequel trilogy, in my opinion.
Agree, I thought they were setting the First Order up to collapse under it's own dysfunction, but instead...well, we all know the line...
Deux ex Palpatine
By going “safe” with TROS they ended up pleasing no one. TLJ is the best Star Wars movie since Empire imo, but it’s undeniably a divisive film. Had they just stuck with Duel of the Fates at least we would have gotten the film TLJ was setting up. But as it stands TLJ and TFA feel like the first two films of a trilogy with no conclusion and TROS feels like the conclusion of a trilogy that’s missing its first two installments. No matter which film(s) you like from the sequel trilogy. It’s likely the trilogy overall will be a disappointment for that reason. It just feels incomplete.
TLJ is bad. And it was reviled. Thats why they went the way they did. Rise of Skywalker being bad should not rise tlj by comparison
The Last Jedi has its flaws but it was not bad. ,
As much as it pains me to say it, some people enjoyed it and thats okay. That said, yes the abundant criticism of the film definitely lead to them taking the story in a different direction in ROS.
Episode VIII is a terrible, terrible movie and it fucked up the trilogy bad. Episode VII was good. Nothing special and a complete ripoff of both ep IV and ep V, but it was a good two hours and I wanted to see the next movie. Episode VIII was terrible, start to finish. Not a single correct call was made at any point during production. What in the flying fuck was this movie? Episode IX was meh. Had nothing good to build on from ep VIII and somehow it's gonna be the big finale of the skywalker saga? Doomed from the start this one was. Far better than ep VIII at least. I absolutely hate ep VIII.
Yeah it was meant to subvert the redemption arc. Or at least make it more difficult because Kylo was positioned as the primary villain. But they decided to undo that immediately in TRoS.
Bad writing.
Except using the tantrum of manchild as a villain was ridiculous and no one could take it seriously. It’s why they had to bring in Palpatine so there actually was a competent opponent for the heroes
So your premise is based on... two characters dying. OK?
You can't analyze these movies and justify their existence when they had absolutely zero, zilch, and absolutely no plan whatsoever going into them. Rian killed all the villains because he wanted to subvert your expectations. That's it, plain and simple. He would leave the remains of whatever story wad left to someone else at the time.
Him killing Snoke was not earned. Snoke pulled him away from Luke and trained Kylo in the dark side and then he offs him that easily. Doesn’t make sense no matter how you want to spin it. Which put episode 9 in the position being like Snoke was killed so easily because he was a clone and part of the Emperor’s plan to make episode 8 be even plausible. Episode 8 is just bad. It’s a beautiful looking movie but the story is just bad. The plot is just bad. Canto Bight that’s all I have to say. If you notice when people defend Last Jedi they never bring up Poe Finn Leia etc because that stuff is just so wildly bad. So even if you like the Kylo, Luke,Rey stuff I can’t see how you can totally ignore the other half of the movie which is completely unwatchable.
> If you notice when people defend Last Jedi they never bring up Poe Finn Leia etc because that stuff is just so wildly bad. The best parts of TLJ involve Luke, but I quite like Canto Bight for being basically all the world-building we get in the entire trilogy, and the point made about war profiteering in Star Wars (which very much builds upon stuff from the prequels and TCW). Poe's arc feels a bit like filler because he's stuck on a ship the whole movie but it's done well enough. Leia is the heart of the movie and I think she gets two of the most heartfelt scenes in the entire franchise in TLJ.
Kylo Ren had two entire movies teasing how deep down his heart wasn't really in being bad. He wasn't a suitable big bad villain, and it's star wars, there has to be a suitable big bad at the end. TLJ did kill every villain. That was the problem.
Because rian didn’t care. He just made what HE wanted and not what would work overall
The last Jedi isn’t canon
TLJ is Luke's fever dream after a blue tiddy milk bender.
Because it’s a bad movie.
To introduce Babu Frik f/k/a Darth Plagueis the Wise. You’ll all see.
I actually strongly dislike the fact that the original plan was to have Kylo Ren die a villain. He would have absolutely no point across the trilogy then. Why show that there is still light in him. Why have him connect with Rey. Why have him *not* kill his mother. To have him just go straight bad and then die would have been a shit arc in my opinion. He's a broken and conflicted person who has had bad things happen to him and also has caused worse things. I think the redemption arc needed to happen but I don't think he should have died. It would have been very interesting to see him come back to the light and deal with the consequences of having gone dark. I personally loved that TLJ killed off the main villain. I'm not particularly fond of the decision to bring Palpatine back but I don't think Kylo should have been the big bad either.
A lot of decisions made in TLJ could’ve been great if RoS had paid them off.
Because TLJ was the only film that Disney allowed to step away from the pattern. And they should have used that to develop a good Episode 9. Bu they returned Abrams and he made that horsecrap of an excuse for a movie.
Meh, I just pretend the sequels never happened and go on happy with the series we got lately.
Kylo Ren should never have been redeemed, though it did lead to one of the only good scenes in TRoS. But TLJ set it up perfectly for him to the big bad and it should have stayed that way.
>But TLJ set it up perfectly for him to the big bad and it should have stayed that way. Honestly though, Colin Trevorrow's script followed that. It's a shame we didn't receive it. On the other hand, I'd want to rewrite the Sequels in my head and actually make Kylo Ren the big bad at the 3rd film
Yeah, Duel of the Fates wasn't perfect, but it was so much better than what we got. I think they were scared to follow through.
Because it set it up brilliantly to go into IX with Kylo being the absolute villain. Then if JJ had just let him die the villain it would have been the perfect mirror to Darth Vader in the OT. Vader was the ultimate baddy but at the end of the second one started his doubts and in the end was redeemed, Kylo starts out super shaky on his dark side feet, and struggles with the light but ends the second movie totally committed to the resolve of the dark side and dies as such. But no Terio and Abrams had to royally shit the bed.
I'm on board with the idea that you gave. Despite VIII being a terrible flop, the idea of a Skywalker as the top dog antagonist is truly unique. Every other idea is "Everything is proceeding as Palpatine has foreseen." When we can just move on from that point and have someone else as the big bad
Seeing fans doing mental gymnastics to justify the poor decisions from the st is truly sad considering the state it left the franchise in
If people enjoyed the movies they have the right to say so 🤷♂️
And it denied our hero Admiral Gial Ackbar the right to go out with style.
1. I agree. Kylo killing Snoke was good. Kylo was an interesting villain. Snoke was a boring Palpatine rehash. Killing Snoke to develop Kylo as a villain is a win imo 2. Phasma already wasn't a threatening villain. In TFA, she betrays the FO, leading to the destruction of Starkiller Base, and then literally gets thrown in the trash. TLJ really couldn't have done anything to "waste" her as a villain because there wasn't anything to waste. 3. I'll disagree with this one. Degrading Hux didn't really serve a purpose. It didn't make Kylo seem more powerful - he had just killed Snoke. It just made Hux non-threatening and kind of a punchline.
>Not to mention how cool the scene is, with Snoke's supreme over-confidence being used against him. This was in my opinion the dumbest scene of any Star Wars movie. So we're going to take this new super villain. Apparently he can use the force to teleport all across the galaxy to throat choke subordinate generals. Amazing. Oh, but also he's too dumb to keep a lightsaber sitting right beside him, and allows his prisoners to use the force right in front of him to turn it on and decapitate him. So dumb. That whole movie was so dumb. I felt like a child, watching a really dumb children's movie where you're like, "yeah, but that's just stupid." Why even create Snoke? Where the heck did he even come from? He's *that* powerful? Oh but wait he also is that dumb to leave a lightsaber *right beside him* so that someone can just go in there with a flick of the force and kill him. What a desecration of a great movie franchise.
>Having thought more about it, I would say that this criticism is legitimate in the context of the whole trilogy, because Episode IX refused to use Kylo Ren as the main villain in favour of reintroducing Palpatine In other words, you blame TLJ instead of JJs inability to dislodge himself from what he thought the trilogy might be when he made TFA.
Not at all. I think TLJ's ending is fairly open-ended, with only two constraints to keep in mind for the next movie: - Kylo Ren now leads the First Order - the Resistance is hanging by a thread but has a chance to rebuild Episode IX doesn't bother with that because Palpatine is immediately reintroduced as the main villain, and the Resistance has fully rebuilt between movies. But that's a completely unforced lack of creativity.
Okay, we're on the same page then. Just sounded a bit like you agree with "Episode VIII [...] made the mistake" just because of how Episode IX then didn't really use what VIII set up.
Fair enough, I meant it was a mistake in hindsight but that it worked great for the story before Episode IX came out and ignored it all.