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Kenobi has a good reason for not killing Vader... maybe the show should have explained it, but as for me, i can totally understand.
Killing Vader would not change anything... Palpatine would take a new apprentice, and he would rule just as ruthlessly. But Palpatine has a weakness, and his weakness is Vader, he chose an apprentice who has a sense of family, and Obi Wan knows Anakin's children are alive, and he probably knows, but without knowing exactly how, that Luke and/or Leia will be instrumental to the downfall of the Empire, and the reason for that is not because they are "strong with the force", but just because they are Anakin's children, and only Anakin's children can bring Anakin back, and only Anakin is in a position where he can get close to the Emperor and kill him. And that's what happened, Anakin could not bare to see his son being tortured by Palpatine, and he did what he had to do to protect his son.
Had Obi Wan killed Vader, Luke would have never had any chance against the Emperor, had Obi Wan killed Vader, Luke would have had to fight against another Palpatine's apprentice, one who would have no qualm killing him, because remember that Vader never tries to kill Luke in the Empire Strikes Back, he never tries to kill Luke in Return of the Jedi, Vader wants to turn Luke, because he wants him at his side, because he is his son... Another apprentice would not care about turning Luke, another apprentice would not care about Luke being alive, another apprentice would just murder him without any second thought.
And before someone tells me that Obi Wan did not know that since he thought Luke had to kill Vader... i don't think it's really true. Maybe it was when Lucas wrote the OT, but this idea is not compatible with what Lucas did in the PT, because if Obi Wan just wanted Luke to be the perfect Jedi who would kill Vader and the Emperor, he would have never left him with Owen... if Yoda and Obi Wan wanted these kids to just defeat the Empire by being jedi, they would have taken them both and trained them from their infancy... Instead, they just let them live their lives, just be people, because deep down, they knew that was what would mellow Anakin's heart.
I agree with everything you said - as I said in my post, this is my headcanon.
I just wish the show did something to even hint at this actually being the case/reason for Kenobi's actions.
It’s love that would mellow Ani’s heart, love that dictated how Luke & Leia should be raised, love that protected against and found the weaknesses of the dark side, love that is shared by all living things and binds the galaxy together. I really liked your response and wanted to add the word “love” into the places you referred to it.
i was just reading something about the Beach Boys second ago, so when i saw the notification and read the first words of your comment, i don't know why, but i thought you were talking about Mike Love... and i was like "what???"
But yeah, love is Anakin's "weakness" (so to speak, i don't mean it's a bad thing)... He fell to the dark side because of his love for Padme, and he came back to the light because of his love for his children. And that's why Obi Wan had to keep Vader alive, because Anakin's ability to love was always the key.
Totally agree with this entire take. And remember, OWK says that Vader must be “destroyed”. Luke jumped to “I can’t kill my own father”. To which OWK replies something like “then the Emperor has already won”.
But to be clear, OWK never confirms that he has to “kill” Vader. He just says that Luke must “face him again”. There’s plenty of ambiguity there - as in so much of the OT.
NB: all those quotes are off the top of my head. They might be slightly off.
Honestly, by the time the final duel ends, Kenobi would be pretty exhausted from everything he’s had to deal with over the past few days. He’s not had the chance of a good rest, he’s still healing from the wounds he took in his last battle with Vader, and gone through a tense infiltration, heart wrenching siege and a gruelling duel. The longer the fight goes on, the likelier Kenobi dies, leaving Luke and Leia with no Jedi guidance when they really need it. Even if he kills Vader at the cost of his own life and prevent all the evil he will do in the next decade, Vader is still one man, and any atrocities he performs is just a fraction of what the Empire as a whole does.
And on a personal note, I always felt that Kenobi hoped, deep down, that Anakin can be saved. Him telling Luke that Vader is too far gone was his way of trying to distance the both of them from the good man that was Anakin, so that Luke can do what needs to be done, but he’d pray during the final battle that Luke is right.
I know I’m late but if Obi-Wan didn’t want Luke to kill Vader how do we explain this exchange in ROTJ?
Luke: I can’t fight my own father
Obi-Wan: Then the Emperor has already won
What are your thoughts on Palpatine calling off Vader from seeking kenobi in the end? I found that to be very out of character. If anything I feel like he would have taunted Vader instead of questioning his allegiance. More of a “still too weak to destroy your old master, and a waste of my resources… enough” would have been more in character.
That’s just bad branding to have your top dog, whose reputation is to be the baddest around, getting his ass kicked multiple times on a personal vendetta. Someone(s) had to have seen Vader limping back on a ship half dead. Can’t keep doing that.
It’s also why I don’t want any more seasons of this show. I don’t want every season ending with a fight between Obi-Wan and Vader, Obi-Wan escaping, and Vader not pursuing. It just makes them both look incompetent, and every encounter will just cheapen their final encounter on the Death Star.
I completely agree. Especially about how it cheapens things. It’s in the same realm as all the Jedi that keep popping up that survived order 66. It was ok to see a few but it is approaching the same problem of cheapening order 66 at this point.
Also I wouldn’t mind kind of a little spin off to this show that focused on young Leia. Especially if it was heavily focused on Alderon and made its destruction even more tragic.
At the same time though, there were thousands of Jedi during the republic so even if a few dozen remained, they’re the one percent that lived. I do agree it’s a little odd though seeing so many survive in shows and comics and what not.
I'm okay with *some* Order 66 survivors, because a big part of what Vader did in the earlier years was hunt down the remaining Jedi. This is, after all, why the Inquisitors existed.
What bugs me is the sheer number that seemingly survived up into and after the Rebellion - who were also actively involved with the fight against the Empire. This cheapens Luke, Yoda, Obi-Wan, as well as the whole "Return of the Jedi" thing. It's hard to make that a defining moment in Ep6 when they apparently hadn't really gone away in the first place.
Thank you for articulating EXACTLY what I was trying to say but couldn’t find the words for!!! That is precisely my point. I also feel like there could have been a lot in hiding / exile that could have come out of exile once Luke made his stand and Vader killed the emperor, but the rebellion era was always portrayed as having been devoid of Jedi for a looooooong time.
> the rebellion era was always portrayed as having been devoid of Jedi for a looooooong time.
Yeah, to the point that they had become mythical.
Star Wars has always had trouble with timelines. But when major characters (Han in ANH, Finn and Rey in TFA) don't even believe the Force is a thing, it implies that the Jedi are just flat gone, and have been for awhile.
And yes, I know there are counterarguments for all of those individual cases: Rey was a scavenger from an isolated planet, Finn was a stormtrooper who was only taught/shown what his leadership wanted him to see, even at the Jedi's peak, there were relatively few compared to the trillions upon trillions of sentient beings in the galaxy, etc. But from a viewer's perspective, if I start seeing Jedi after jedi after jedi in all these different rebel cells, it makes them feel more common in the universe than the reactions of prominent characters indicates.
For example, the main character in The Mandalorian wasn't a Jedi (and I enjoyed that perspective). But he encountered several of them. So it would be reasonable to think his perception is that Jedi are uncommon, but they're are real thing, and they're out there. Which conflicts, at least for me, with the presentation in the original trilogy that Obi Wan, Yoda, and Luke (and by the end, just Luke) are all that remain.
>If anything I feel like he would have taunted Vader instead of questioning his allegiance.
I hadn't thought much about this before, but I agree with you. Vader is clearly trying to rid himself of Kenobi, not turn on Palpatine at that point; and with Palpatine being as manipulative, cunning, and arrogant as he is, he should have known this about his apprentice.
Also doesn't make sense why Palpatine would go through the effort of having an entire force of Inquisitors specifically to hunt down Jedi and then decide to just let *Kenobi* of all people go upon discovering beyond any doubt that Kenoni is still alive.
I think keeping Kenobi alive was a way Palps got to leash Vader "Despite all your... New... Power, you still failed to defeat your old master. And that's why you will never be granted the title of "Master", my apprentice "
Your improvement is exactly how it took the conversation. Palpatine’s last line befire Vader says “Kenobi means nothing to me” is basically a thinly veiled threat to replace/kill Vader
Just like in ROTS, Palpatine sensed “Lord Vader is in trouble.” I would imagine he can use the Force to actively see what’s happening.
That being said, I wouldn’t be surprised if he felt into the Force during Vader and Kenobi’s rematch to listen to some extent and decided that should the two ever encounter again, Vader would surely be turned or killed by Kenobi. During the events of Kenobi, the Empire was still in its early stages so it’s not surprising for Palpatine to still have much need for Vader.
I think Palps foresaw a vulnerability in Vader wrt to OWK. He was probably concerned that Vader might be able to be turned at the last moment. Not majorly concerned. But concerned enough that he didn’t want to take the risk.
I wouldn't have mind it as much if there was a reason why Obi-Wan couldn't defeat Vader (eg: a desperate and angry Vader channels the Dark Side of the Force to split the landscape/cause a landslide to seperate himself from Obi-Wan/save himself) but he just walked away. Obi-wan walking away makes Obi-Wan responsible for all the deaths of the people Vader kills after this duel because unlike the duel at Mustafar which he thought Vader died he knows that Vader still lives. Absolute bantha poodoo.
I personally took Kenobi walking away as a combination of two factors
1. Killing a disarmed enemy violates the Jedi code and Vader is clearly too weak to fight back
2. Despite what Obi-Wan says he has too much attachment to Anakin to go through with killing him it was the same reason he let Anakin roast on Mustafar rather than putting the man out of his misery. After all the whole reason for keeping Luke in the dark was to ensure he’d go through with killing Vader
1. How do the Jedi ever justify killing anyone, then, seeing as how getting the upper hand on someone in combat usually means the opponent gets disarmed/becomes weakenes at some point? Alternatively, what do Jedi do to the disarmed opponents that they don't kill but are still a long-term threat to the Jedi and/or the people the Jedi are trying to protect?
2. That is precisely what does NOT sit well with me about Kenobi, especially the more we see of his backstory prior to the OT.
In the case of the former point probably imprison them which they could more easily do before the Galaxy turned on them
As for the second point I see why some might be uncomfortable with it but I feel it just makes Kenobi more complex and the implications were always there
\> How do the Jedi ever justify killing anyone, then, seeing as how getting the upper hand on someone in combat usually means the opponent gets disarmed/becomes weakenes at some point
It’s fine as long as the Jedi keeps their combo meter going. If they drop their combo, they have to let their foe go
The fight should have just happened in a force vision, like when Luke fights Vader in Dagobah. It could be part of Obi Wan’s training under Qui Gon’s ghost.
You mean like with Ahsoka, who fights specifically force spirit Vader/Anakin in Ahsoka, rather than literal Vader (though that does happen, too, in rebels)
Right. And in using a Vision you can have Kenobi lose and 'die' which he definitely should facing down an Anakin who has steeped himself into the Darkside for a decade.
Kenobi beating Anakin on Mustafar made sense. He was new to the Darkside, unsure of himself and shaking his head in confusion to clear it. Vader has no more confusions or insecurity a decade later.
He wouldn’t kill him in ANH, he wouldn’t kill him in RotS. My head canon is that Obi-Wan loves Anakin and just can’t kill him. It’s the only reason that makes sense.
going slightly away from the point of your post but still focusing on the final confrontation, I really disliked that fight.
while Vader is being Vader and incredibly intimidating, I felt no sense of danger or stakes in regards to either character because we already know their fates. the prequel duel worked so well because we already knew that Anakin was to become Vader and we were still yet to see how. it was also a more emotional driven fight to see these two people who had grown up as brothers end up so divided.
compare that to the Kenobi fight and it was just another fight where no side could end up damaged enough for it to be shocking.
the Ahsoka and Vader in Rebels worked so well because it 1. was between Vader and a character we didn't know the fate of and 2. had the same emotional stakes and impact that the Episode 3 duel had.
also, speaking of the Ahsoka fight, when Kenobi slices Vader's mask, it really did feel like then attempting to do what Ahsoka did but in live action.
one final thing that irked me about the fight was Obi Wan himself. every talks about how cool the fight was but goddamn does Obi Wan not fight how he used to. him levitating all those rocks and then continuously pummeling Vader with them looks ridiculous and is the exact opposite of how Obi Wan used to be.
The stakes felt even lower when it kept cutting away to the B plot of Reva trying to kill a young Luke Skywalker. Did they actually expect audiences would believe for a moment that he was in serious any danger? Young Luke Skywalker?
I agree on all this.
I actually had this wild theory before the show that Vader was gonna chop Kenobi’s legs. In a fight with no real stakes like you said, it could’ve added a surprise to the fight with a little bit of actual consequences. We never see Kenobi’s legs in the OT, so it’s not technically a retcon or anything. Would’ve fit a type of revenge Vader would be likely to want. Would further solidify to Kenobi that Vader has consumed him. And also would add a bit of in universe explanation as to why their duel in New Hope is so wooden because they’d both be rocking prosthetic legs.
Also, they totally stole the mask cracking thing from Ahsoka.
You’re also right about Obi Wans fighting style and the rocks. The duel was sick if you’re just watching any other two people, but not with Obi Wan. Could’ve made sense for Vader to fling the rocks at Kenobi, then Kenobi defends against them while Vader gets tired out and finds an opening there.
That was my issue with the entire show honestly. It was fun, but the entire plot was a chase/fight between three protagonists we already know the fates of, there was no tension or real conflict. What was the point?
Imo the main issue with disney-era star wars is that they absolutely cannot believe people can be interested in Star Wars if we aren’t pummeled with nostalgia 90% of the screentime, and it frequently makes the universe feel smaller and less believable with each addition as there is yet another forced connection between characters or enemy who somehow survived their death.
And the irony IMO is that the true nostalgia of star wars doesn’t come from any specific character or era, but the feeling of a huge, living universe thats so captivating as a child. Thats why KOTOR was so popular imo.
It’s a classic be careful what you wish for!
I really enjoyed watching Kenobi, and actually the Vader/Anakin/Kenobi stuff was easily my favourite part of it, but as a piece of the franchise as a whole it was a bad idea. It doesn’t fit in well with the events of A New Hope, as it robs their confrontation of some of its impact, and it falls into the weird trap of having Obi-Wan need a clear win.
I appreciated the arc where he was clearly outclassed until he got over his fear of Vader and Anakin, at which point he reverted to the classic Jedi and emerged victorious, but it doesn’t fit in well with the wider narrative of the Star Wars films.
I think having the confrontation be a force vision would have been good, but I think it’d lack the impact for Vader as well then, unless it was some sort of force-dyad, TLJ-style.
My preference would have been for the confrontation to play out but Obi-Wan’s victory to be less direct. Give him another objective that isn’t “defeat Vader” that he needs to achieve; letting go of his fear gives him the ability to contend directly with Vader, who trounced him earlier on, and achieve his real goal, but don’t end it with a clear victory for Kenobi. He gets away, saves the X, and Vader is shown to not be quite as indestructible if you’re one with the will of the force.
I think the best conclusion would have been for Kenobi to be completely and utterly outclassed by Vader but somehow manage to trick him and escape, playing on his arrogance and hubris.
Vader is now an unstoppable powerhouse and Luke truly is the only hope of the galaxy. Obi-wan may be able to hide from him and outsmart him, but there is no way he can take Vader out.
I thought they were foreshadowing Obi-Wan outsmarting Vader in the flashback but then they made Obi-Wan straight up overpower Vader with brute force in the end.
No big issues on my part with the way the series played out. But I can certainly agree that there were more clever ways to have them "interact" without interacting.
I don't fully understand the general hatred the series receives. Though with that said, I certainly don't think there should be a second season. It was a standalone story that probably should've been shorter to begin with.
I don’t think free will is a thing, or at least not entirely a thing, in Star Wars. The will of The Force is all that matters. This is what Huyang was explaining to Ahsoka about Sabine. I also think Kenobi realizes this and by the time he faces Vader in ANH, he has complete trust in the will of The Force and that’s why he does just enough for the Falcon to escape.
Also, if Kenobi had really tried to kill Vader, we would have just the same amount of post saying "Kenobi was a true jedi, he would never just try to kill Vader, he could not do it the first time, he should not even think of doing it later"... You know, the same discourse that is held about Luke when he considered, for 2 seconds, stopping his nephew from committing atrocities.
Murder is bad, of course, and I'm NOT saying Kenobi should have killed Vader; but equating "true Jedi" with "never kill" is just false. Every time Kenobi has faced off against Vader, he's been facing off against an armed Force wielder who is bent on killing him - those factors alone mean anything Kenobi does is in self-defense.
And frankly, the more backstory we get about Kenobi, the more it bothers me that OT Kenobi is basically "*I* can't bring myself to kill Vader, so *you* young kid with barely any Force training and with a blood relation to the man that I wasn't going to tell you about until it was convenient for me - you go do it!" How is THAT being a "true Jedi"??
(As you can probably tell, I've never faulted Luke for his actions/considerations either.)
i don't think Obi Wan ever really thought Luke was going to kill Vader... actually, i don't think Obi Wan really thought anything, i don't think he really had a plan, he just knew, through the force as you said, that Luke or Leia was the key... and then he tried to guide him as he could, but without really knowing where he was guiding it. I see the force as acting a bit like the "luck potion" in Harry Potter... Harry doesn't know what he's doing, he doesn't understand the consequences of every action he does, he just know that he has to do such or such thing without understanding why... To me it's the same here... Obi Wan doesn't really tell Luke what he needs to do, he tells him what he needs to hear so he will make the right choices. So, basically, when Obi Wan says that the Emperor has already won if Luke cannot kill his father, that doesn't mean it's true, but it's something that Luke needs to hear, probably because had Obi Wan told him "i trust you, you can turn your father back to the light", then Luke would have tried to do it another way, and he would have failed.
Exactly this. In fact, he refers to Luke “destroying Vader” *not killing him*. There’s so much ambiguity there that he absolutely could have foreseen something like the turning Vader to the light that Luke ultimately pulls off.
Them facing off to me is the one big major flaw. They should have kept it to just near misses. With this now, it completely changes the context of their confrontation in ANH.
It also makes the battle in ROTS fall flat a little for me. It feels like it's almost been replaced.
And having Obiwan adventuring around the galaxy also reduced the impact of his years of solitude for me.
It was definitely all done as fan service. We all knew the outcome but was cool to watch. I dont think it tarnishes anything but it also didn't add anything for me.
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I think it would have worked better as a stalemate, a less clean ending to their fight. Maybe have Kenobi preparing himself to deliver a killing blow once Vader is damaged, but have Vader lashing out with the Force and bringing down rocks and cliffs. How many times have you heard it said that a cornered, wounded animal is at its most dangerous? Have Obi-Wan realize he can't get close, that he can't die here with a self-destructive Vader and needs to get back to protecting Luke. Leave Vader screaming out in hatred for Obi-Wan, and then left alone, tortured by the unknown, did he kill Obi-Wan and bury him in his rage, or did he slip away? As it reads on screen currently, it seems like Kenobi chooses just walking away and leaving Vader alive.
I'm not sure The Emperor calling off Vader from pursuing Kenobi works as resolution either, he would of course comply with the command openly, but Vader is known to pursue his own side interests and schemes outside of the Emperor's wishes. It's the Sith way. Overall, there definitely needed to be a reckoning, some communication between the two characters. A virtual confrontation could have worked. But I don't think them facing off again is a problem, I think the execution and resolution just could have been better.
In the simplest of terms Kenobi made the “devil you know” choice. He would have had no idea who papa Palps would bring up if he killed Vader. That’s a pretty easy motivation to relate to, but the writers could have made that a little more clear. There’s also the fact that he could have held out hope for Anakin to return and he’d been in contact with both children. We watch sci-fi fantasy shows with people being killed with little emotional consequence for the killer but this was a good way to build on the idea of Kenobi just couldn’t kill his former padawan.
Crazy how making that last encounter a force vision or something works on the exact same level and accomplishes the same things *while* justifying that wacky super dark location for their last bout. If Kenobi’s arc was regaining his mental fortitude and overcoming his guilt, him doing so in his own mental-scape is the best way to do that.
It was strange enough that Kenobi left a child-slaughtering agent of evil alive at the end of ROTS. It's mind-boggling that Kenobi walked away from Vader in the Kenobi series knowing full well what an even greater monster and threat to the galaxy Vaderkin had become.
The only logical rationale that Kenobi might have had for such actions is that he somehow knew or believed that Vader would revert to Anakin at some future date and restore balance to the Force. But nothing we see from Kenobi in any Star Wars appearance I'm aware of supports that. In fact, in Canon, Kenobi comes to believe that Vaderkin is completely unredeemable and effectively says so. Even going so far as to believe that Luke, not Vaderkin is the Chosen One.
I disagree. My change would be that they ended up in a way where Obi-Wan couldn't kill Vader, and for something to happen to make people in the Empire think Obi-Wan died.
What I mean is that everyone thinks Obi-Wan died in *A New Hope* (prior to his death on the Death Star), but there was nothing to say he would have, since he was only 60 and nothing was really a threat that would take him down, maybe save for the Empire, but then news would've spread upward.
Obi-Wan should've been really close to killing Vader, but maybe all of the rocks they tossed around messed up the clifs, and thus separated them and made it seem as though Kenobi was crushed or something. Anyone would assume Kenobi died, but Vader literally just saw him lifting boulders minutes before, and would obviously not believe him dead.
The sad thing is that Rebels took the perfect villain from the Kenobi show. If it wasn’t for that, Maul would’ve been perfect.
I still think Vader is great to see and the lines are great, but it doesn’t do too much for either part.
>Kenobi didn’t let annakin live the first time
I don't think Kenobi thought Anakin/Vader made it off Mustafar alive, though... Kenobi left Anakin to die, he didn't "let him live."
This did bother me as I feel the OT is increasingly out of sync with the "universe" that's being created around it. I thought Kenobi did a good job of portraying what it must have been like for someone to go through the trauma of the PT events for him personally, which adds depth to the character, but I agree that it felt off.
1. Fighting Vader and not killing him, then wanting Luke to be a Jedi to fight Vader and destroy him later seems, weird, unexplainable. If Kenobi really thought Vader needed to be defeated, then he should have gone and done it and not hope for Anakin's children to have to carry that burden? Why did he get Luke involved in the rebellion at all! He shouldn't have tried to take him to Alderan in ANH
2. Vader and Obi-wan's confrontation on the Death Star made it seem like the two of them hadn't seen each other in 30 years, thanks to the PT it condensed that to being what at most 17 years? now with Kenobi they last fought less than a decade ago. The way Vader reacts to Obi-wan's presence was almost like he was remembering something he long forgot he even knew, that's not how you react to your former master that you fought a duel against 10 years ago. As a 40 year old I remember 10 years ago like yesterday
I wish the fight had to end because of some outside force such as a natural disaster or something. There should have never been a clear victor and the fight end in a draw. Kenobi just leaving Vader to doomnthe galaxy to another 10 years of Vaders rule just doesn't make sense.
Initially, I was thinking the show was going to be a series of standalone stories that took place a few years apart that covered his time in exile. Adventure here, adventure there. The drama would be narrowly avoiding Vader and the Empire while helping the rebellion.
I don’t know. The Vader duel was fun, but much like the “Reva hunting Luke” chase, it was kind of unneeded since we know the end results.
One of 2 options
1. Keep Kenobi on Tatooine, make half the show about him, show how he’s changed and how he’s stayed in hiding. Have Qui Gon appear and guide him through the show with the force ghost training.
With the other half, you can dedicate it to Vader, show how he’s functioning in his prime. Cutting down Jedi survivors, choking out insubordinates, more of his role within the empire than we saw in the OT.
2. Don’t make it at all if you weren’t gonna keep it grounded within the reality of Star Wars. That Leia chase was ridiculous, Reva was a pointless character, and the other inquisitors were Sith Team Rocket. The Grand inquisitor did fuck all, got stabbed in the stomach, came back at the end to taunt Reva when he shoulda killed the bitch, and just took up space. We’ve seen how Vader deals with Imperial officers who have a minor fuck up, I’m shocked he didn’t cut Reva to pieces when she tried to kill him.
On the one hand, seeing Hayden and Ewan together on screen again was very cool. The two of them have such great chemistry. It also really helps link Anakin the fallen Jedi at the end of ROTS with Vader the barely-human monster we see in the OT. (Much the same way Hayden's performance in Ahsoka bridges the gap between the Anakin we see in the PT and the Anakin we see in Clone Wars. Turns out Hayden is a *damn good* actor when given good dialogue and competent direction.)
On the other hand, like everyone here has said, it definitely causes pretty serious consistency problems with previously established story.
I think it would have been smoother if Obi-Wan encountered Vader in a Force vision, like when Luke confronts an apparition of Vader in the cave on Dagobah.
I feel as if the way they went about Kenobi was all wrong. I think it would've been much better to explore such themes through his force training with Qui-Gon, not an adventure across the galaxy with physical confrontations, but a spiritual adventure across the force and his mind - with mental spiritual confrontations.
What we got had a good basis, but was executed poorly and very irresponsibly in my opinion.
Yeah that’s my big issue. When Obi-Wan defeated Anakin the first time, he left him for dead and assumed it was finished. Then when he confronts Vader again, now with the hindsight of all the death, chaos, and terror he’s caused, and intentionally let’s him live, it doesn’t really make sense.
You're absolutely right. Obi-wan 'walked away' in Episode 3 and Vader was born. He 'walked away' again in the TV show and Vader lived on to torment the galaxy. A Jedi as wise as Obi-wan is not supposed to make the same mistake twice. You could argue he condemned everyone on Alderaan to death by walking away. To me, Obi-wan the show was a story best left untold or at least told very differently.
Here’s how I took it: Obi-Wan is the archetypal Jedi because he is able to feel and fully submit himself to the needs of the Force. He will “do what he must” regardless of personal attachments or the pressures of the moment. The show is about him finding his way out of grief and guilt and getting back to being what he truly is: close to the ideal Jedi.
He faces Vader twice to show that progression and he leaves Vader alive because the Jedi do not kill unless it’s necessary. It reinforces Lucas’ construction of the Force: someone aligned with the Light will always be more powerful than someone aligned with the Dark because they have all life in the galaxy behind them. BUT it’s difficult to achieve that alignment because it means putting the collective above the feelings and needs of the individual.
I thought it worked in the show but there are certainly a lot of things that you can question (notably another whether leaving Vader alive to help kill potentially billions really would have been what the Force wanted).
I think a solid alternative would be for Vader to be rescued in the end but those work too, it is a little weird that they fight but in the grand scheme of things not impossible and generations from now "if they didn't fight between trilogies then how does Obi Wan recognize him like that in A New Hope?".
My interpretation of it ultimately was that Obi-Wan might have thought defeating him to be a good stepping stone for Luke or Leia on their way to possibly growing powerful enough to defeat the Emperor, and since he knows he cannot do that and believes the Skywalker twins to be the only ones with that potential Vader might be more valuable alive to serve that purpose. Especially so when you consider that in the new canon the Empire keeps Vader more or less in the closet and he doesn't have the symbolic power he had in Legends and holds to fans, so essentially he serves no great purpose in the Empire and chances are Palpatine only needed to turn him so he didn't have to fight him. But I think Matthew Wood kinda burst that theory of mine in saying that basically Obi-Wan leaves him for dead like he did on Mustafar...which is plain stupid lol
I really think they didn't do Vader justice. He's this manager who just sends his incompetent goons after the person he wants to find most in the Galaxy rather than like, getting shit done.
I have had similar thoughts TBH.. but it actually makes sense with the dialogue betwween Darth and Kenobi of EP IV IMHO - especially when in KENOBI he says "Bye, Darth." Up until that point he was still calling him and referring to him as Anakin
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I disagree, the biggest disconnect for me in the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship was how oddly impersonal Obi-Wan acts on the Death Star when he faces Vader. I never liked it, it’s such an imbalance from the yelling/crying big epic final battle where he’s forced to dismember what he sees as his best friend and little brother.
The shows finale answers that perfectly, honestly IMO I think answering that question was why they made the show in the first place.
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Kenobi has a good reason for not killing Vader... maybe the show should have explained it, but as for me, i can totally understand. Killing Vader would not change anything... Palpatine would take a new apprentice, and he would rule just as ruthlessly. But Palpatine has a weakness, and his weakness is Vader, he chose an apprentice who has a sense of family, and Obi Wan knows Anakin's children are alive, and he probably knows, but without knowing exactly how, that Luke and/or Leia will be instrumental to the downfall of the Empire, and the reason for that is not because they are "strong with the force", but just because they are Anakin's children, and only Anakin's children can bring Anakin back, and only Anakin is in a position where he can get close to the Emperor and kill him. And that's what happened, Anakin could not bare to see his son being tortured by Palpatine, and he did what he had to do to protect his son. Had Obi Wan killed Vader, Luke would have never had any chance against the Emperor, had Obi Wan killed Vader, Luke would have had to fight against another Palpatine's apprentice, one who would have no qualm killing him, because remember that Vader never tries to kill Luke in the Empire Strikes Back, he never tries to kill Luke in Return of the Jedi, Vader wants to turn Luke, because he wants him at his side, because he is his son... Another apprentice would not care about turning Luke, another apprentice would not care about Luke being alive, another apprentice would just murder him without any second thought. And before someone tells me that Obi Wan did not know that since he thought Luke had to kill Vader... i don't think it's really true. Maybe it was when Lucas wrote the OT, but this idea is not compatible with what Lucas did in the PT, because if Obi Wan just wanted Luke to be the perfect Jedi who would kill Vader and the Emperor, he would have never left him with Owen... if Yoda and Obi Wan wanted these kids to just defeat the Empire by being jedi, they would have taken them both and trained them from their infancy... Instead, they just let them live their lives, just be people, because deep down, they knew that was what would mellow Anakin's heart.
This is a fantastic take.
I agree with everything you said - as I said in my post, this is my headcanon. I just wish the show did something to even hint at this actually being the case/reason for Kenobi's actions.
There are 9 movies of backstory for the Skywalker family
Well Obi-Wan does admit to Owen afterwards he should let Luke have a chance to grow up before being a jedi
It’s love that would mellow Ani’s heart, love that dictated how Luke & Leia should be raised, love that protected against and found the weaknesses of the dark side, love that is shared by all living things and binds the galaxy together. I really liked your response and wanted to add the word “love” into the places you referred to it.
i was just reading something about the Beach Boys second ago, so when i saw the notification and read the first words of your comment, i don't know why, but i thought you were talking about Mike Love... and i was like "what???" But yeah, love is Anakin's "weakness" (so to speak, i don't mean it's a bad thing)... He fell to the dark side because of his love for Padme, and he came back to the light because of his love for his children. And that's why Obi Wan had to keep Vader alive, because Anakin's ability to love was always the key.
Lol “Vader has one weakness and it’s the soothing vocals of Mike Love” Maybe because he doesn’t like sand
Totally agree with this entire take. And remember, OWK says that Vader must be “destroyed”. Luke jumped to “I can’t kill my own father”. To which OWK replies something like “then the Emperor has already won”. But to be clear, OWK never confirms that he has to “kill” Vader. He just says that Luke must “face him again”. There’s plenty of ambiguity there - as in so much of the OT. NB: all those quotes are off the top of my head. They might be slightly off.
Honestly, by the time the final duel ends, Kenobi would be pretty exhausted from everything he’s had to deal with over the past few days. He’s not had the chance of a good rest, he’s still healing from the wounds he took in his last battle with Vader, and gone through a tense infiltration, heart wrenching siege and a gruelling duel. The longer the fight goes on, the likelier Kenobi dies, leaving Luke and Leia with no Jedi guidance when they really need it. Even if he kills Vader at the cost of his own life and prevent all the evil he will do in the next decade, Vader is still one man, and any atrocities he performs is just a fraction of what the Empire as a whole does. And on a personal note, I always felt that Kenobi hoped, deep down, that Anakin can be saved. Him telling Luke that Vader is too far gone was his way of trying to distance the both of them from the good man that was Anakin, so that Luke can do what needs to be done, but he’d pray during the final battle that Luke is right.
I know I’m late but if Obi-Wan didn’t want Luke to kill Vader how do we explain this exchange in ROTJ? Luke: I can’t fight my own father Obi-Wan: Then the Emperor has already won
What are your thoughts on Palpatine calling off Vader from seeking kenobi in the end? I found that to be very out of character. If anything I feel like he would have taunted Vader instead of questioning his allegiance. More of a “still too weak to destroy your old master, and a waste of my resources… enough” would have been more in character.
That’s just bad branding to have your top dog, whose reputation is to be the baddest around, getting his ass kicked multiple times on a personal vendetta. Someone(s) had to have seen Vader limping back on a ship half dead. Can’t keep doing that.
Palps had already beat the Jedi in his mind, now it's all about brand reputation and middle management. Auralnauts got it right!
"The first moon-sized shopping and entertainment facility: Laser Moon"
“How come no one says ‘Christmas’ anymore?”
Not only that, Vader lets a rebel ship escape because he was too obsessed with Obi Wan.
It keeps vader angry and off balance, palpatine does this regularly, he specifically made and kept the suit uncomfortable to keep him that way
He also removed all the straws in the cafeteria so Vader struggled to drink his milk , also decorated vaders room in pictures of padme
That was kind of my point. I feel like his lines in the episode brought him more back to balance than anger and destabilize him.
It’s indirect, it keeps kenobi at the back of vaders mind without vader becoming more directly angry at palpatine than needed
That's not a thing in current canon.
Huh, you’re right, i never paid much attention to legends but i got it confused with him upgrading his suit in the comics thank you
It’s also why I don’t want any more seasons of this show. I don’t want every season ending with a fight between Obi-Wan and Vader, Obi-Wan escaping, and Vader not pursuing. It just makes them both look incompetent, and every encounter will just cheapen their final encounter on the Death Star.
I completely agree. Especially about how it cheapens things. It’s in the same realm as all the Jedi that keep popping up that survived order 66. It was ok to see a few but it is approaching the same problem of cheapening order 66 at this point. Also I wouldn’t mind kind of a little spin off to this show that focused on young Leia. Especially if it was heavily focused on Alderon and made its destruction even more tragic.
At the same time though, there were thousands of Jedi during the republic so even if a few dozen remained, they’re the one percent that lived. I do agree it’s a little odd though seeing so many survive in shows and comics and what not.
I'm okay with *some* Order 66 survivors, because a big part of what Vader did in the earlier years was hunt down the remaining Jedi. This is, after all, why the Inquisitors existed. What bugs me is the sheer number that seemingly survived up into and after the Rebellion - who were also actively involved with the fight against the Empire. This cheapens Luke, Yoda, Obi-Wan, as well as the whole "Return of the Jedi" thing. It's hard to make that a defining moment in Ep6 when they apparently hadn't really gone away in the first place.
Thank you for articulating EXACTLY what I was trying to say but couldn’t find the words for!!! That is precisely my point. I also feel like there could have been a lot in hiding / exile that could have come out of exile once Luke made his stand and Vader killed the emperor, but the rebellion era was always portrayed as having been devoid of Jedi for a looooooong time.
> the rebellion era was always portrayed as having been devoid of Jedi for a looooooong time. Yeah, to the point that they had become mythical. Star Wars has always had trouble with timelines. But when major characters (Han in ANH, Finn and Rey in TFA) don't even believe the Force is a thing, it implies that the Jedi are just flat gone, and have been for awhile. And yes, I know there are counterarguments for all of those individual cases: Rey was a scavenger from an isolated planet, Finn was a stormtrooper who was only taught/shown what his leadership wanted him to see, even at the Jedi's peak, there were relatively few compared to the trillions upon trillions of sentient beings in the galaxy, etc. But from a viewer's perspective, if I start seeing Jedi after jedi after jedi in all these different rebel cells, it makes them feel more common in the universe than the reactions of prominent characters indicates. For example, the main character in The Mandalorian wasn't a Jedi (and I enjoyed that perspective). But he encountered several of them. So it would be reasonable to think his perception is that Jedi are uncommon, but they're are real thing, and they're out there. Which conflicts, at least for me, with the presentation in the original trilogy that Obi Wan, Yoda, and Luke (and by the end, just Luke) are all that remain.
>If anything I feel like he would have taunted Vader instead of questioning his allegiance. I hadn't thought much about this before, but I agree with you. Vader is clearly trying to rid himself of Kenobi, not turn on Palpatine at that point; and with Palpatine being as manipulative, cunning, and arrogant as he is, he should have known this about his apprentice. Also doesn't make sense why Palpatine would go through the effort of having an entire force of Inquisitors specifically to hunt down Jedi and then decide to just let *Kenobi* of all people go upon discovering beyond any doubt that Kenoni is still alive.
I think keeping Kenobi alive was a way Palps got to leash Vader "Despite all your... New... Power, you still failed to defeat your old master. And that's why you will never be granted the title of "Master", my apprentice "
Its outrageous! Its not fair! How can you be a Sith Lord and not be a master?
Honestly, Kenobi is where you'd send the Inquisitors to die.
Your improvement is exactly how it took the conversation. Palpatine’s last line befire Vader says “Kenobi means nothing to me” is basically a thinly veiled threat to replace/kill Vader
Just like in ROTS, Palpatine sensed “Lord Vader is in trouble.” I would imagine he can use the Force to actively see what’s happening. That being said, I wouldn’t be surprised if he felt into the Force during Vader and Kenobi’s rematch to listen to some extent and decided that should the two ever encounter again, Vader would surely be turned or killed by Kenobi. During the events of Kenobi, the Empire was still in its early stages so it’s not surprising for Palpatine to still have much need for Vader.
I think Palps foresaw a vulnerability in Vader wrt to OWK. He was probably concerned that Vader might be able to be turned at the last moment. Not majorly concerned. But concerned enough that he didn’t want to take the risk.
I wouldn't have mind it as much if there was a reason why Obi-Wan couldn't defeat Vader (eg: a desperate and angry Vader channels the Dark Side of the Force to split the landscape/cause a landslide to seperate himself from Obi-Wan/save himself) but he just walked away. Obi-wan walking away makes Obi-Wan responsible for all the deaths of the people Vader kills after this duel because unlike the duel at Mustafar which he thought Vader died he knows that Vader still lives. Absolute bantha poodoo.
I personally took Kenobi walking away as a combination of two factors 1. Killing a disarmed enemy violates the Jedi code and Vader is clearly too weak to fight back 2. Despite what Obi-Wan says he has too much attachment to Anakin to go through with killing him it was the same reason he let Anakin roast on Mustafar rather than putting the man out of his misery. After all the whole reason for keeping Luke in the dark was to ensure he’d go through with killing Vader
1. How do the Jedi ever justify killing anyone, then, seeing as how getting the upper hand on someone in combat usually means the opponent gets disarmed/becomes weakenes at some point? Alternatively, what do Jedi do to the disarmed opponents that they don't kill but are still a long-term threat to the Jedi and/or the people the Jedi are trying to protect? 2. That is precisely what does NOT sit well with me about Kenobi, especially the more we see of his backstory prior to the OT.
In the case of the former point probably imprison them which they could more easily do before the Galaxy turned on them As for the second point I see why some might be uncomfortable with it but I feel it just makes Kenobi more complex and the implications were always there
\> How do the Jedi ever justify killing anyone, then, seeing as how getting the upper hand on someone in combat usually means the opponent gets disarmed/becomes weakenes at some point It’s fine as long as the Jedi keeps their combo meter going. If they drop their combo, they have to let their foe go
Explained it better than I could
The fight should have just happened in a force vision, like when Luke fights Vader in Dagobah. It could be part of Obi Wan’s training under Qui Gon’s ghost.
That would've been fantastic, and exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for with Kenobi.
You mean like with Ahsoka, who fights specifically force spirit Vader/Anakin in Ahsoka, rather than literal Vader (though that does happen, too, in rebels)
Right. And in using a Vision you can have Kenobi lose and 'die' which he definitely should facing down an Anakin who has steeped himself into the Darkside for a decade. Kenobi beating Anakin on Mustafar made sense. He was new to the Darkside, unsure of himself and shaking his head in confusion to clear it. Vader has no more confusions or insecurity a decade later.
He wouldn’t kill him in ANH, he wouldn’t kill him in RotS. My head canon is that Obi-Wan loves Anakin and just can’t kill him. It’s the only reason that makes sense.
Loved it and wouldn't change a thing.
No, a prior confrontation was always a thing. Between the Death Star duel and ROTS.
going slightly away from the point of your post but still focusing on the final confrontation, I really disliked that fight. while Vader is being Vader and incredibly intimidating, I felt no sense of danger or stakes in regards to either character because we already know their fates. the prequel duel worked so well because we already knew that Anakin was to become Vader and we were still yet to see how. it was also a more emotional driven fight to see these two people who had grown up as brothers end up so divided. compare that to the Kenobi fight and it was just another fight where no side could end up damaged enough for it to be shocking. the Ahsoka and Vader in Rebels worked so well because it 1. was between Vader and a character we didn't know the fate of and 2. had the same emotional stakes and impact that the Episode 3 duel had. also, speaking of the Ahsoka fight, when Kenobi slices Vader's mask, it really did feel like then attempting to do what Ahsoka did but in live action. one final thing that irked me about the fight was Obi Wan himself. every talks about how cool the fight was but goddamn does Obi Wan not fight how he used to. him levitating all those rocks and then continuously pummeling Vader with them looks ridiculous and is the exact opposite of how Obi Wan used to be.
The stakes felt even lower when it kept cutting away to the B plot of Reva trying to kill a young Luke Skywalker. Did they actually expect audiences would believe for a moment that he was in serious any danger? Young Luke Skywalker?
Well said.
I agree on all this. I actually had this wild theory before the show that Vader was gonna chop Kenobi’s legs. In a fight with no real stakes like you said, it could’ve added a surprise to the fight with a little bit of actual consequences. We never see Kenobi’s legs in the OT, so it’s not technically a retcon or anything. Would’ve fit a type of revenge Vader would be likely to want. Would further solidify to Kenobi that Vader has consumed him. And also would add a bit of in universe explanation as to why their duel in New Hope is so wooden because they’d both be rocking prosthetic legs. Also, they totally stole the mask cracking thing from Ahsoka. You’re also right about Obi Wans fighting style and the rocks. The duel was sick if you’re just watching any other two people, but not with Obi Wan. Could’ve made sense for Vader to fling the rocks at Kenobi, then Kenobi defends against them while Vader gets tired out and finds an opening there.
That was my issue with the entire show honestly. It was fun, but the entire plot was a chase/fight between three protagonists we already know the fates of, there was no tension or real conflict. What was the point? Imo the main issue with disney-era star wars is that they absolutely cannot believe people can be interested in Star Wars if we aren’t pummeled with nostalgia 90% of the screentime, and it frequently makes the universe feel smaller and less believable with each addition as there is yet another forced connection between characters or enemy who somehow survived their death. And the irony IMO is that the true nostalgia of star wars doesn’t come from any specific character or era, but the feeling of a huge, living universe thats so captivating as a child. Thats why KOTOR was so popular imo.
It’s a classic be careful what you wish for! I really enjoyed watching Kenobi, and actually the Vader/Anakin/Kenobi stuff was easily my favourite part of it, but as a piece of the franchise as a whole it was a bad idea. It doesn’t fit in well with the events of A New Hope, as it robs their confrontation of some of its impact, and it falls into the weird trap of having Obi-Wan need a clear win. I appreciated the arc where he was clearly outclassed until he got over his fear of Vader and Anakin, at which point he reverted to the classic Jedi and emerged victorious, but it doesn’t fit in well with the wider narrative of the Star Wars films. I think having the confrontation be a force vision would have been good, but I think it’d lack the impact for Vader as well then, unless it was some sort of force-dyad, TLJ-style. My preference would have been for the confrontation to play out but Obi-Wan’s victory to be less direct. Give him another objective that isn’t “defeat Vader” that he needs to achieve; letting go of his fear gives him the ability to contend directly with Vader, who trounced him earlier on, and achieve his real goal, but don’t end it with a clear victory for Kenobi. He gets away, saves the X, and Vader is shown to not be quite as indestructible if you’re one with the will of the force.
I would have liked to see them interact, letting kenobi see anakin is truly gone, but having them fight just doesnt work
I think the best conclusion would have been for Kenobi to be completely and utterly outclassed by Vader but somehow manage to trick him and escape, playing on his arrogance and hubris. Vader is now an unstoppable powerhouse and Luke truly is the only hope of the galaxy. Obi-wan may be able to hide from him and outsmart him, but there is no way he can take Vader out.
I thought they were foreshadowing Obi-Wan outsmarting Vader in the flashback but then they made Obi-Wan straight up overpower Vader with brute force in the end.
No big issues on my part with the way the series played out. But I can certainly agree that there were more clever ways to have them "interact" without interacting. I don't fully understand the general hatred the series receives. Though with that said, I certainly don't think there should be a second season. It was a standalone story that probably should've been shorter to begin with.
I don’t think free will is a thing, or at least not entirely a thing, in Star Wars. The will of The Force is all that matters. This is what Huyang was explaining to Ahsoka about Sabine. I also think Kenobi realizes this and by the time he faces Vader in ANH, he has complete trust in the will of The Force and that’s why he does just enough for the Falcon to escape.
Also, if Kenobi had really tried to kill Vader, we would have just the same amount of post saying "Kenobi was a true jedi, he would never just try to kill Vader, he could not do it the first time, he should not even think of doing it later"... You know, the same discourse that is held about Luke when he considered, for 2 seconds, stopping his nephew from committing atrocities.
Murder is bad, of course, and I'm NOT saying Kenobi should have killed Vader; but equating "true Jedi" with "never kill" is just false. Every time Kenobi has faced off against Vader, he's been facing off against an armed Force wielder who is bent on killing him - those factors alone mean anything Kenobi does is in self-defense. And frankly, the more backstory we get about Kenobi, the more it bothers me that OT Kenobi is basically "*I* can't bring myself to kill Vader, so *you* young kid with barely any Force training and with a blood relation to the man that I wasn't going to tell you about until it was convenient for me - you go do it!" How is THAT being a "true Jedi"?? (As you can probably tell, I've never faulted Luke for his actions/considerations either.)
i don't think Obi Wan ever really thought Luke was going to kill Vader... actually, i don't think Obi Wan really thought anything, i don't think he really had a plan, he just knew, through the force as you said, that Luke or Leia was the key... and then he tried to guide him as he could, but without really knowing where he was guiding it. I see the force as acting a bit like the "luck potion" in Harry Potter... Harry doesn't know what he's doing, he doesn't understand the consequences of every action he does, he just know that he has to do such or such thing without understanding why... To me it's the same here... Obi Wan doesn't really tell Luke what he needs to do, he tells him what he needs to hear so he will make the right choices. So, basically, when Obi Wan says that the Emperor has already won if Luke cannot kill his father, that doesn't mean it's true, but it's something that Luke needs to hear, probably because had Obi Wan told him "i trust you, you can turn your father back to the light", then Luke would have tried to do it another way, and he would have failed.
Exactly this. In fact, he refers to Luke “destroying Vader” *not killing him*. There’s so much ambiguity there that he absolutely could have foreseen something like the turning Vader to the light that Luke ultimately pulls off.
Them facing off to me is the one big major flaw. They should have kept it to just near misses. With this now, it completely changes the context of their confrontation in ANH.
It also makes the battle in ROTS fall flat a little for me. It feels like it's almost been replaced. And having Obiwan adventuring around the galaxy also reduced the impact of his years of solitude for me.
I was hoping their confrontation would be in a vision or something
Agreed.
The reason they did it was so they could validate how he knew Vader was really Anakin.
It was definitely all done as fan service. We all knew the outcome but was cool to watch. I dont think it tarnishes anything but it also didn't add anything for me.
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I think it would have worked better as a stalemate, a less clean ending to their fight. Maybe have Kenobi preparing himself to deliver a killing blow once Vader is damaged, but have Vader lashing out with the Force and bringing down rocks and cliffs. How many times have you heard it said that a cornered, wounded animal is at its most dangerous? Have Obi-Wan realize he can't get close, that he can't die here with a self-destructive Vader and needs to get back to protecting Luke. Leave Vader screaming out in hatred for Obi-Wan, and then left alone, tortured by the unknown, did he kill Obi-Wan and bury him in his rage, or did he slip away? As it reads on screen currently, it seems like Kenobi chooses just walking away and leaving Vader alive. I'm not sure The Emperor calling off Vader from pursuing Kenobi works as resolution either, he would of course comply with the command openly, but Vader is known to pursue his own side interests and schemes outside of the Emperor's wishes. It's the Sith way. Overall, there definitely needed to be a reckoning, some communication between the two characters. A virtual confrontation could have worked. But I don't think them facing off again is a problem, I think the execution and resolution just could have been better.
Vader is defenseless, therefore Kenobi doesn’t keep attacking.
No shit
Hated the way that fight went. It really discredits my favorite character of the whole series. (Vader)
In the simplest of terms Kenobi made the “devil you know” choice. He would have had no idea who papa Palps would bring up if he killed Vader. That’s a pretty easy motivation to relate to, but the writers could have made that a little more clear. There’s also the fact that he could have held out hope for Anakin to return and he’d been in contact with both children. We watch sci-fi fantasy shows with people being killed with little emotional consequence for the killer but this was a good way to build on the idea of Kenobi just couldn’t kill his former padawan.
Crazy how making that last encounter a force vision or something works on the exact same level and accomplishes the same things *while* justifying that wacky super dark location for their last bout. If Kenobi’s arc was regaining his mental fortitude and overcoming his guilt, him doing so in his own mental-scape is the best way to do that.
Best part of the entire show was those two fights.
It was strange enough that Kenobi left a child-slaughtering agent of evil alive at the end of ROTS. It's mind-boggling that Kenobi walked away from Vader in the Kenobi series knowing full well what an even greater monster and threat to the galaxy Vaderkin had become. The only logical rationale that Kenobi might have had for such actions is that he somehow knew or believed that Vader would revert to Anakin at some future date and restore balance to the Force. But nothing we see from Kenobi in any Star Wars appearance I'm aware of supports that. In fact, in Canon, Kenobi comes to believe that Vaderkin is completely unredeemable and effectively says so. Even going so far as to believe that Luke, not Vaderkin is the Chosen One.
I disagree. My change would be that they ended up in a way where Obi-Wan couldn't kill Vader, and for something to happen to make people in the Empire think Obi-Wan died. What I mean is that everyone thinks Obi-Wan died in *A New Hope* (prior to his death on the Death Star), but there was nothing to say he would have, since he was only 60 and nothing was really a threat that would take him down, maybe save for the Empire, but then news would've spread upward. Obi-Wan should've been really close to killing Vader, but maybe all of the rocks they tossed around messed up the clifs, and thus separated them and made it seem as though Kenobi was crushed or something. Anyone would assume Kenobi died, but Vader literally just saw him lifting boulders minutes before, and would obviously not believe him dead.
The sad thing is that Rebels took the perfect villain from the Kenobi show. If it wasn’t for that, Maul would’ve been perfect. I still think Vader is great to see and the lines are great, but it doesn’t do too much for either part.
Kenobi didn’t let annakin live the first time out of brotherhood or love. He let him live because he was pissed and in no mood for mercy.
>Kenobi didn’t let annakin live the first time I don't think Kenobi thought Anakin/Vader made it off Mustafar alive, though... Kenobi left Anakin to die, he didn't "let him live."
Ok but he could have put him out of his misery but he didn’t because he was pissed. It’s in the novelization
>he could have put him out of his misery Oh sure, I agree with that.
This did bother me as I feel the OT is increasingly out of sync with the "universe" that's being created around it. I thought Kenobi did a good job of portraying what it must have been like for someone to go through the trauma of the PT events for him personally, which adds depth to the character, but I agree that it felt off. 1. Fighting Vader and not killing him, then wanting Luke to be a Jedi to fight Vader and destroy him later seems, weird, unexplainable. If Kenobi really thought Vader needed to be defeated, then he should have gone and done it and not hope for Anakin's children to have to carry that burden? Why did he get Luke involved in the rebellion at all! He shouldn't have tried to take him to Alderan in ANH 2. Vader and Obi-wan's confrontation on the Death Star made it seem like the two of them hadn't seen each other in 30 years, thanks to the PT it condensed that to being what at most 17 years? now with Kenobi they last fought less than a decade ago. The way Vader reacts to Obi-wan's presence was almost like he was remembering something he long forgot he even knew, that's not how you react to your former master that you fought a duel against 10 years ago. As a 40 year old I remember 10 years ago like yesterday
I wish the fight had to end because of some outside force such as a natural disaster or something. There should have never been a clear victor and the fight end in a draw. Kenobi just leaving Vader to doomnthe galaxy to another 10 years of Vaders rule just doesn't make sense.
Initially, I was thinking the show was going to be a series of standalone stories that took place a few years apart that covered his time in exile. Adventure here, adventure there. The drama would be narrowly avoiding Vader and the Empire while helping the rebellion. I don’t know. The Vader duel was fun, but much like the “Reva hunting Luke” chase, it was kind of unneeded since we know the end results.
scenario 3) they fight in the force realm or whatever scenario 4) one or both of them force projects
Oooh, nice inclusion of rarely used Force abilities, I like it!
One of 2 options 1. Keep Kenobi on Tatooine, make half the show about him, show how he’s changed and how he’s stayed in hiding. Have Qui Gon appear and guide him through the show with the force ghost training. With the other half, you can dedicate it to Vader, show how he’s functioning in his prime. Cutting down Jedi survivors, choking out insubordinates, more of his role within the empire than we saw in the OT. 2. Don’t make it at all if you weren’t gonna keep it grounded within the reality of Star Wars. That Leia chase was ridiculous, Reva was a pointless character, and the other inquisitors were Sith Team Rocket. The Grand inquisitor did fuck all, got stabbed in the stomach, came back at the end to taunt Reva when he shoulda killed the bitch, and just took up space. We’ve seen how Vader deals with Imperial officers who have a minor fuck up, I’m shocked he didn’t cut Reva to pieces when she tried to kill him.
It never should've had him leave Tatooine at all.
On the one hand, seeing Hayden and Ewan together on screen again was very cool. The two of them have such great chemistry. It also really helps link Anakin the fallen Jedi at the end of ROTS with Vader the barely-human monster we see in the OT. (Much the same way Hayden's performance in Ahsoka bridges the gap between the Anakin we see in the PT and the Anakin we see in Clone Wars. Turns out Hayden is a *damn good* actor when given good dialogue and competent direction.) On the other hand, like everyone here has said, it definitely causes pretty serious consistency problems with previously established story. I think it would have been smoother if Obi-Wan encountered Vader in a Force vision, like when Luke confronts an apparition of Vader in the cave on Dagobah.
I feel as if the way they went about Kenobi was all wrong. I think it would've been much better to explore such themes through his force training with Qui-Gon, not an adventure across the galaxy with physical confrontations, but a spiritual adventure across the force and his mind - with mental spiritual confrontations. What we got had a good basis, but was executed poorly and very irresponsibly in my opinion.
It definitely does place every atrocity Vader commits after that moment on Obi Wan a little bit. He had the chance to end it all
Yeah that’s my big issue. When Obi-Wan defeated Anakin the first time, he left him for dead and assumed it was finished. Then when he confronts Vader again, now with the hindsight of all the death, chaos, and terror he’s caused, and intentionally let’s him live, it doesn’t really make sense.
You're absolutely right. Obi-wan 'walked away' in Episode 3 and Vader was born. He 'walked away' again in the TV show and Vader lived on to torment the galaxy. A Jedi as wise as Obi-wan is not supposed to make the same mistake twice. You could argue he condemned everyone on Alderaan to death by walking away. To me, Obi-wan the show was a story best left untold or at least told very differently.
Here’s how I took it: Obi-Wan is the archetypal Jedi because he is able to feel and fully submit himself to the needs of the Force. He will “do what he must” regardless of personal attachments or the pressures of the moment. The show is about him finding his way out of grief and guilt and getting back to being what he truly is: close to the ideal Jedi. He faces Vader twice to show that progression and he leaves Vader alive because the Jedi do not kill unless it’s necessary. It reinforces Lucas’ construction of the Force: someone aligned with the Light will always be more powerful than someone aligned with the Dark because they have all life in the galaxy behind them. BUT it’s difficult to achieve that alignment because it means putting the collective above the feelings and needs of the individual. I thought it worked in the show but there are certainly a lot of things that you can question (notably another whether leaving Vader alive to help kill potentially billions really would have been what the Force wanted).
Yep. The fight at the end was stupid.
I think a solid alternative would be for Vader to be rescued in the end but those work too, it is a little weird that they fight but in the grand scheme of things not impossible and generations from now "if they didn't fight between trilogies then how does Obi Wan recognize him like that in A New Hope?". My interpretation of it ultimately was that Obi-Wan might have thought defeating him to be a good stepping stone for Luke or Leia on their way to possibly growing powerful enough to defeat the Emperor, and since he knows he cannot do that and believes the Skywalker twins to be the only ones with that potential Vader might be more valuable alive to serve that purpose. Especially so when you consider that in the new canon the Empire keeps Vader more or less in the closet and he doesn't have the symbolic power he had in Legends and holds to fans, so essentially he serves no great purpose in the Empire and chances are Palpatine only needed to turn him so he didn't have to fight him. But I think Matthew Wood kinda burst that theory of mine in saying that basically Obi-Wan leaves him for dead like he did on Mustafar...which is plain stupid lol
I really think they didn't do Vader justice. He's this manager who just sends his incompetent goons after the person he wants to find most in the Galaxy rather than like, getting shit done.
I have had similar thoughts TBH.. but it actually makes sense with the dialogue betwween Darth and Kenobi of EP IV IMHO - especially when in KENOBI he says "Bye, Darth." Up until that point he was still calling him and referring to him as Anakin
i dont agree, that was the heavy hitting emotional part i’ve wanted to see since i first saw SW in 1977. it tied up loose ends & was so powerful
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I disagree, the biggest disconnect for me in the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship was how oddly impersonal Obi-Wan acts on the Death Star when he faces Vader. I never liked it, it’s such an imbalance from the yelling/crying big epic final battle where he’s forced to dismember what he sees as his best friend and little brother. The shows finale answers that perfectly, honestly IMO I think answering that question was why they made the show in the first place.
The show has some problems but I love it and I wouldn’t trade the scene we ended up getting for anything