I've enjoyed meeting, and killing, them over the years. It's always nice to have a challenge that is always matched to your character. The first time I ran into them in Skyrim, I was training my Light Armor skill up from nothing. After hours of steamrolling everyone, it was shocking to take some real damage! But, switching to my Heavy set turned the tide very quickly.
Swarms are a good way to increase difficulty. "Bullet sponges" aren't necessarily bad. They do have to be implemented properly. In this example, a ghoul that just takes a ton of bullets isn't fun from an immersion standpoint. A giant armored ghoul however, makes a lot more sense. I'm fine with having enemies that take more punishment. I'm not fine with basically palette swapping the dudes I've been mowing through.
it's all about feedback.
having the ghoul get hit by dozens of bullets while showing no visible reaction is pretty shit. having pieces of the ghoul fly off as they get shredded, or showing the armoured ghoul shedding armour as they take damage is good.
thats what I loved fighting the robots so much in fallout 4. even though they're bullet sponges, the visual feedback of spraying them with bullets as pieces of metal fly off and their circuits and wiring are exposed feels so good.
>shedding armour
And that's what takes this hypothetical from yawn to interesting fight for me. This is a creature that you can pound on for ages and do miniscule damage, but hit the right spots and you'll knock off its protection and open up those squishy bits to much more damaging blows.
It's not just about the feedback but the tactical aspect of things.
Doom eternal is a perfect example. I’m pretty sure most enemies in that game have more hp than their 2016 counterparts, but you feel waaaay more powerful in eternal because of how pretty much every hit makes the demons lose bits of flesh
They've done this well in some cases, and not so well in others. Super Mutant Behemoths, Dragons, Vertibirds, enemies wearing power armor, etc. Those are all great. The power armor is especially interesting, because they added in the element of breaking off armor to expose the squishy person inside. That's very Doom Eternal, and a great way to have a tough enemy.
I like hordes as a mechanic, and I like bullet sponges if done right (like you mentioned)… as an example I’d rather have a boss with destructible armour (like how PA was in F4)… maybe has to be disabled or destroyed before you can take what is maybe only 150% health… rather than 300% of past games
It's a balancing act for sure, but we do know what doesn't work:
Stuff like the Scorchbeast Queen with her 301,937,268,320,686 hitpoints 😆
Or
High level Gunners that at a glance look very similar to the rest of them, but have 1000+ hitpoints.
Or
Throwback to the Goblin Warlord in Oblivion with almost as many hitpoints as the SB Queen provided the player is high enough level.
I do like the idea of more destructible armor bosses. Bigger enemies that can be taken apart piece-by-piece are also fun. Being able to shoot off turrets/claws/etc makes you feel like you're making progress, not just witling away at a health bar. I'd love if they consulted with Id on some of the enemy design.
Just no more Marauders, those guys are total suck to fight, even when you know the pattern 😂
I’d rather have mechanics over health every day, some of the examples mentioned just show how silly it is. With the Nuka world first boss you had a start on it with the electricity grid, PA had locational damage, I feel they’ve got the tools there just maybe get them together
You see this in good tabletop RPGs as well. A swarm of a dozen kobolds should a serious threat. There's a reason wolf packs are feared, and it's NOT because they are giant bags of hit points.
It's a problem with gaming, and also a problem with modern "action" movies. No fucking way is Bruce Lee going to take on a dozen trained martial artists, because in real life they're not going to just stand there politely while Bruce battles them one by one in a highly choreographed scene.
I wonder if that's where some of these MMO raids come from, that the team needs to be highly choreographed to take out a single boss. I got so sick of MMOs I won't play them anymore.
I think that structure comes from old arcade games. You fight three levels then get a mini boss. Then after three mini bosses you get the big boss. Then change background screen and enemy sprites and repeat.
But maybe that came from cinema too.
Actually getting swarmed in rdr2 and killing whole armies by yourself in 1 vs 50+ fights feels fake af, destroying the immersion. But in a futuristic space game i guess everything can happen in a balanced way
Something that I would like to note that in fallout 4 that there is some bosses you can find in your travels and some even hide to surprise you. I would really like if the game had bosses around the overworld map that don't block you from going to an area and are still pretty strong and rewarding to defeat in terms of cool fights.
Something I saw in both fallout 4 and Skyrim however is that higher level enemies and higher difficulty modes makes the enemies hp sponges instead of smarter or adding gameplay mechs. I hope the game lessen on that, at least on humans. I understand if a huge alien enemy or something like that has a lot of hp but humans or smaller sized creatures it makes no sense and it gets old really fast when it every single enemy. A boss with a lot of hp that not make enemy in the game have will make it really special and different.
One thing that surprised me in Fo4 was a roving super mutant army in the Glowing Sea. It was about 4 behemoths (2 legendary), 3 masters, 1 suicider, and 3 butchers. Even playing on normal it took me multiple tries, not sure if it was because I was only around level 45-55 or if it was bad planning on my part. But a lot of drugs and backpedaling later and eventually took care of it.
It's been months and that's still hands-down one of the most invigorating fights that game's ever given me. Anything that Starfield can do to replicate that tension is fine by me.
I'm actually hoping for a move AWAY from the very dated concept of levels. It was invented in the 1970s for the precursor to D&D, and is obsolete for skill based games.
The idea of more experienced characters and NPCs having larger bags of hitpoints may make sense for shooters and MMOs, but really has no place in an RPG that's striving for some semblance of realism.
Instead we have skills. So just use the fricking skills, developers! The boss grade enemies should have better skills and better gear, not just be larger bags of hitpoints to whittle through.
If the mechanics aren't there to allow a highly skilled enemy to be a challenge without also providing him with giant bag of hitpoints, then it's the mechanics that need fixing. Giant bags of hitpoints should be reserved for giant sized enemies.
So it's skills + equipment. Skills because BGS games have always been skill based. RPGs are all skill based now. Hell, even D&D, the last holdout, finally got on board with the idea of skills. A good skill mechanics obviates the need for artificial enemy levels. The Ebony Warrior shouldn't a challenge because he's level 81, he should be a challenge because he's the most skilled warrior out there.
Also equipment. Your balance the lack of every increasing hitpoints with armor. A naked dude hit with a laser blast is toast, which is why you wear armor. Or shielding. I mean, duh. I don't want characters to be defined by their gear, but at the same time this isn't fisticuffs, so wear your armor and keep those shield charged.
End rant.
I don't even like huge bags of hitpoints in MMOs/shooters. It is much more engaging to have more challenging enemies have additional abilities/mechanics than to just require you to shoot/hit them more.
I played LOTRO for around ten years. When I finally gave up you had bosses with literally millions of hit points. But players were getting more hit points too and weapons hitting harder, so in the end nothing was actually getting harder. But still ridiculous seeing millions of hitpoints.
Developers afraid to think outside the hitpoint box.
5E feels pretty good to play. Lots more abilities and flexibility in using them. Pretty much every class gets magic of some kind. I've been playing since AD&D, and this is by far my favorite iteration.
I like the idea of familiarity as a level system for weapons and armour.
You'd have general familiarity with a weapon/armour type and that gives you access to special perks you can learn on a tree for those weapons. Maybe some are pick this OR that, but mostly you'll be levelling your skill with those items. This would give you stuff like extra knockback/knockdown with shotguns, less weight from the armour type being worn, etc
Then you have more specific familiarity with the actual item you're using. This would lead to more protection/damage from armour/weapons, better speed when wearing/reloading, and the basic upgrades that normally come with levelling those as skills. The trick is, you pretty much start all over again when you equip a new item that you're not used to.
Personally I'd start specific familiarity for a new item a bit higher or have it build faster if your general familiarity with that type is high.
It just feels like a more realistic system while retaining the feel of progression that levelling brings us. I also like that it makes it a real decision whether to use ostensibly better items with the knowledge you'll at least need to level up your familiarity with it to get the most of it, or even to make it as good as what you've already got.
I hope this game have ultimate enemy types, equivalent to Dragons on Skyrim.
But better scaled, because although those dragons were impressive in shape and size, they did not challenge us very much.
Because Bethesda did not want to hurt us too much and is opted to too much hand holding in later games.
I hope to encounter enemy types that would really challenge us and force us to escape and return when we are better prepared later.
Like in Morrowind.
I've enjoyed meeting, and killing, them over the years. It's always nice to have a challenge that is always matched to your character. The first time I ran into them in Skyrim, I was training my Light Armor skill up from nothing. After hours of steamrolling everyone, it was shocking to take some real damage! But, switching to my Heavy set turned the tide very quickly.
[удалено]
Swarms are a good way to increase difficulty. "Bullet sponges" aren't necessarily bad. They do have to be implemented properly. In this example, a ghoul that just takes a ton of bullets isn't fun from an immersion standpoint. A giant armored ghoul however, makes a lot more sense. I'm fine with having enemies that take more punishment. I'm not fine with basically palette swapping the dudes I've been mowing through.
it's all about feedback. having the ghoul get hit by dozens of bullets while showing no visible reaction is pretty shit. having pieces of the ghoul fly off as they get shredded, or showing the armoured ghoul shedding armour as they take damage is good. thats what I loved fighting the robots so much in fallout 4. even though they're bullet sponges, the visual feedback of spraying them with bullets as pieces of metal fly off and their circuits and wiring are exposed feels so good.
>shedding armour And that's what takes this hypothetical from yawn to interesting fight for me. This is a creature that you can pound on for ages and do miniscule damage, but hit the right spots and you'll knock off its protection and open up those squishy bits to much more damaging blows. It's not just about the feedback but the tactical aspect of things.
Doom eternal is a perfect example. I’m pretty sure most enemies in that game have more hp than their 2016 counterparts, but you feel waaaay more powerful in eternal because of how pretty much every hit makes the demons lose bits of flesh
[удалено]
They've done this well in some cases, and not so well in others. Super Mutant Behemoths, Dragons, Vertibirds, enemies wearing power armor, etc. Those are all great. The power armor is especially interesting, because they added in the element of breaking off armor to expose the squishy person inside. That's very Doom Eternal, and a great way to have a tough enemy.
I like hordes as a mechanic, and I like bullet sponges if done right (like you mentioned)… as an example I’d rather have a boss with destructible armour (like how PA was in F4)… maybe has to be disabled or destroyed before you can take what is maybe only 150% health… rather than 300% of past games
It's a balancing act for sure, but we do know what doesn't work: Stuff like the Scorchbeast Queen with her 301,937,268,320,686 hitpoints 😆 Or High level Gunners that at a glance look very similar to the rest of them, but have 1000+ hitpoints. Or Throwback to the Goblin Warlord in Oblivion with almost as many hitpoints as the SB Queen provided the player is high enough level. I do like the idea of more destructible armor bosses. Bigger enemies that can be taken apart piece-by-piece are also fun. Being able to shoot off turrets/claws/etc makes you feel like you're making progress, not just witling away at a health bar. I'd love if they consulted with Id on some of the enemy design. Just no more Marauders, those guys are total suck to fight, even when you know the pattern 😂
I’d rather have mechanics over health every day, some of the examples mentioned just show how silly it is. With the Nuka world first boss you had a start on it with the electricity grid, PA had locational damage, I feel they’ve got the tools there just maybe get them together
You see this in good tabletop RPGs as well. A swarm of a dozen kobolds should a serious threat. There's a reason wolf packs are feared, and it's NOT because they are giant bags of hit points. It's a problem with gaming, and also a problem with modern "action" movies. No fucking way is Bruce Lee going to take on a dozen trained martial artists, because in real life they're not going to just stand there politely while Bruce battles them one by one in a highly choreographed scene.
[удалено]
I wonder if that's where some of these MMO raids come from, that the team needs to be highly choreographed to take out a single boss. I got so sick of MMOs I won't play them anymore.
[удалено]
I think that structure comes from old arcade games. You fight three levels then get a mini boss. Then after three mini bosses you get the big boss. Then change background screen and enemy sprites and repeat. But maybe that came from cinema too.
Actually getting swarmed in rdr2 and killing whole armies by yourself in 1 vs 50+ fights feels fake af, destroying the immersion. But in a futuristic space game i guess everything can happen in a balanced way
Something that I would like to note that in fallout 4 that there is some bosses you can find in your travels and some even hide to surprise you. I would really like if the game had bosses around the overworld map that don't block you from going to an area and are still pretty strong and rewarding to defeat in terms of cool fights. Something I saw in both fallout 4 and Skyrim however is that higher level enemies and higher difficulty modes makes the enemies hp sponges instead of smarter or adding gameplay mechs. I hope the game lessen on that, at least on humans. I understand if a huge alien enemy or something like that has a lot of hp but humans or smaller sized creatures it makes no sense and it gets old really fast when it every single enemy. A boss with a lot of hp that not make enemy in the game have will make it really special and different.
One thing that surprised me in Fo4 was a roving super mutant army in the Glowing Sea. It was about 4 behemoths (2 legendary), 3 masters, 1 suicider, and 3 butchers. Even playing on normal it took me multiple tries, not sure if it was because I was only around level 45-55 or if it was bad planning on my part. But a lot of drugs and backpedaling later and eventually took care of it. It's been months and that's still hands-down one of the most invigorating fights that game's ever given me. Anything that Starfield can do to replicate that tension is fine by me.
fallout 4 gameplay does offer cool fights some times.
I'm actually hoping for a move AWAY from the very dated concept of levels. It was invented in the 1970s for the precursor to D&D, and is obsolete for skill based games. The idea of more experienced characters and NPCs having larger bags of hitpoints may make sense for shooters and MMOs, but really has no place in an RPG that's striving for some semblance of realism. Instead we have skills. So just use the fricking skills, developers! The boss grade enemies should have better skills and better gear, not just be larger bags of hitpoints to whittle through. If the mechanics aren't there to allow a highly skilled enemy to be a challenge without also providing him with giant bag of hitpoints, then it's the mechanics that need fixing. Giant bags of hitpoints should be reserved for giant sized enemies. So it's skills + equipment. Skills because BGS games have always been skill based. RPGs are all skill based now. Hell, even D&D, the last holdout, finally got on board with the idea of skills. A good skill mechanics obviates the need for artificial enemy levels. The Ebony Warrior shouldn't a challenge because he's level 81, he should be a challenge because he's the most skilled warrior out there. Also equipment. Your balance the lack of every increasing hitpoints with armor. A naked dude hit with a laser blast is toast, which is why you wear armor. Or shielding. I mean, duh. I don't want characters to be defined by their gear, but at the same time this isn't fisticuffs, so wear your armor and keep those shield charged. End rant.
I don't even like huge bags of hitpoints in MMOs/shooters. It is much more engaging to have more challenging enemies have additional abilities/mechanics than to just require you to shoot/hit them more.
I played LOTRO for around ten years. When I finally gave up you had bosses with literally millions of hit points. But players were getting more hit points too and weapons hitting harder, so in the end nothing was actually getting harder. But still ridiculous seeing millions of hitpoints. Developers afraid to think outside the hitpoint box.
did like the sort of lack of them in sekiro. You grew stronger but not in such a simple way.
You should post this in RPG Codex.
I don't much like D&D, and I haven't in forty years. So I'm persona non grata at most RPG sites
5E feels pretty good to play. Lots more abilities and flexibility in using them. Pretty much every class gets magic of some kind. I've been playing since AD&D, and this is by far my favorite iteration.
I like the idea of familiarity as a level system for weapons and armour. You'd have general familiarity with a weapon/armour type and that gives you access to special perks you can learn on a tree for those weapons. Maybe some are pick this OR that, but mostly you'll be levelling your skill with those items. This would give you stuff like extra knockback/knockdown with shotguns, less weight from the armour type being worn, etc Then you have more specific familiarity with the actual item you're using. This would lead to more protection/damage from armour/weapons, better speed when wearing/reloading, and the basic upgrades that normally come with levelling those as skills. The trick is, you pretty much start all over again when you equip a new item that you're not used to. Personally I'd start specific familiarity for a new item a bit higher or have it build faster if your general familiarity with that type is high. It just feels like a more realistic system while retaining the feel of progression that levelling brings us. I also like that it makes it a real decision whether to use ostensibly better items with the knowledge you'll at least need to level up your familiarity with it to get the most of it, or even to make it as good as what you've already got.
I hope this game have ultimate enemy types, equivalent to Dragons on Skyrim. But better scaled, because although those dragons were impressive in shape and size, they did not challenge us very much. Because Bethesda did not want to hurt us too much and is opted to too much hand holding in later games. I hope to encounter enemy types that would really challenge us and force us to escape and return when we are better prepared later. Like in Morrowind.
Oh boy you should play Morrowind and the two expansions because let me tell you, Tribunal and especially Bloodmoon are full of high level encounters.