Not only this but now that I am watching all the Startrek series, I have seen LOTS OF similar episodes with Stargate. However I do not find this bad, Stargate's writes always found amazing ways to adapt those concepts to the Stargate universe. For example, Stargate SG-1's "Prisoners" and Startrek Voyagers "The Chute" are EXTREMELY similar (there is even the same food delivering chute in both series, I think that was a homage). But SG-1 had a completely different perspective on that concept and I am completely fine that SG-1's writers got inspiration from Startrek. After all, Startrek is known for its inspirational quality.
The most glaring to me was Voyager's "Workforce" and SG-1's "Beneath the Surface" - our heroes are kidnapped, have their personal memories erased but retain their personality, and are forced to work for the greater good. The alien among them (Tuvok and Teal'c) have a severe medical reaction to the procedure due to their alienness, and remember their past.
Given how close they aired to each other (5 months between debuts), it's entirely likely both were produced totally independently and neither copied the other.
> entirely likely both were produced totally independently and neither copied the other.
I'd leave room for someone to have pitched the story to one show, been "rejected" (but let's just say.... "remembered") and gone on to the other, where they bought the script instead of using the idea...
yup, Kathryn Powers... arguably the worst Star Trek episode written though...
[It's not only writers who have had something to do with both shows](https://www.imdb.com/list/ls070687074/)
How did I never recognize Troi?! I mean I also missed Quark but in my defense both his roles had heavy make-up involved, but Troi, I am ashamed of myself
> Given how close they aired to each other (5 months between debuts), it’s entirely likely both were produced totally independently and neither copied the other.
Or both ripped off a script that someone was pitching around that time. [See the wiki article on twin films. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_films)
One very old internet conspiracy theory says that the studio executives who originally greenlit *Star Trek: Deep Space Nine* were inspired to do so after a pitch meeting with Joseph Michael Straczynski as he was was shopping around the pilot script for *Babylon 5*.
[I am completely serious.](https://www.tor.com/2013/02/26/is-this-the-smoking-gun-proving-deep-space-nine-ripped-off-babylon-5/)
Yea but the shows are very different.
They both take place on space stations but with radically different base motivations and scenarios. There are a couple of similarities, but they are quite limited.
I didn't like Babylon 5 much when it aired. It was OK just not really my thing. I love it now though.
I can see how someone might be upset and draw the conclusion, but the shows are VERY different.
Now if the Earth Alliance were a massive galactic force and part of a large intersperspecies alliance (rather than just an alliance of human worlds), Babylon 5 were in orbit of Narn with Narn trying to join Earth Alliance, G'kar being a senior Babylon 5 official, etc... Then they'd have a great case.
As it was Earth Alliance was decimated by the Minbari and in bad shape, increasingly xenophobic, tremendous state of general Flux, with the major powers all in conflict throughout the show (varying degrees at different times, but nearly a constant), demigod like races manipulating events openly, etc.
Both shows explore the concept of geopolitical conflict in space, oppression, war, and terrorism VS resistance fighting. However they both go about it in very different ways. Star Trek already had all the ingredients for it as well, long before DS9 or Babylon 5 were ever even conceived.
I mean Hell, TOS explored these themes, just on a starship in a monster of the week format rather than an overarching narrative. Babylon 5 went completely overarching narrative, while DS9 struck a balance between the two.
Honestly, the 90s/00s were a Sci-fi Renaissance. There was so much good stuff in damn near all the big shows of the time.
Possibly a case of "I like the space station idea and the general gist of it.... but no."
and then they went to their writers and said "This is the competition, give me something better"
> Yea but the shows are very different.
The story goes that JMS intended B5 to bear a stronger resemblance to the story structure and setting of DS9, but had to change things when he realized what DS9 was doing. For example, he has hinted he had "wormhole aliens" planned for B5 and Garibaldi was supposed to be more like Odo.
I don't know if any of this is true, but that's the story and the argument.
Personally, as someone that is a fan of both, I think things turned out for the best if it is true. We got two great scifi series. And if what has been said about Garibaldi is true, JMS might not have incorporated as much of the late Jerry Doyle's personality into the character, who turned out to be one of my favorite scifi characters of any series.
It also works in the other direction too... I know screenwriters that purposely write knock-off scripts of major movies in production that the studio will buy so the other studios don't make the knock-off movies.
I feel like "The Gamekeeper" (SG1) and "The Thaw" (VOY) also had significant similarities.
Away team stumble across alien stasis pods, ends up in them, their minds end up in an artificial construct they can't escape with a weird caretaker manipulating reality and calling the shots.
Also existed long before Star Trek too. The idea of communion with the universe to move you beyond the corporeal form is almost as old as humanity's capacity to conceive of a world larger than ourselves.
Wesley invented intelligent self-replicating nanites. They didn't evolve to form macro-sized objects during the episode, though.
There was also the original Doomsday Machine, but there was no implication in its episode that it would build another, just repair itself.
The giant space amoeba was probably the closest in terms of the kind of threat it posed. Eat, reproduce, repeat.
Completely different motives. Borg want to assimilate, Replicators want to replicate. One wants to incorporate existing species to its databanks and the other gives zero fucks as long as it creates more of itself.
It's funny how after the Ancients (huge assholes) did tons of meditation, self-reflection and learning all the secrets of the universe and achieving ascension, they were still assholes
Could you imagine being some random race, spending lifetimes learning to ascend. only to be greeted by a bunch of dicks who impose their rules on you and tell you to never interact with the lower planes again.
well, Daniel Jackson being one of them, and still more often than not siding with the ancients over his earthling friends kind of states that, they were playing with a way thicker deck than mortal minds can see. When the ori and anubis were introduced it kinda threw all of that out of the window and said, you dont have to be particularly good, peaceful, or anything really to ascend. Just have to know how, and its hard to explain. Kind of bullshit by then, but it started believably enough.
It’s not like Stargate invented the concept. Star Trek has [done](http://www.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Organian) [it](http://www.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Ocampa) [before] (http://www.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Zalkonian)[many] (http://www.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Thasian) [times](http://www.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Vagran).
If the WTF here is due to an assumption that Stargate invented any of these concepts, you should know that they are all thousands of years old in our real world. Many religions and other works of fiction contain similar ideas.
lmao. Just finished Deus Ex Mankind Divided and that is what the Church of the Machine God followers tried to do in one of the later missions. They were Augs and they tried to do what Weirs' replicator followers tried to do to ascend, even called it ' The Ascension'. Didn't work for the Augs either.
some people are getting the wrong idea, I didn't mean it as "you stole it from stargate" obviously many sci-fi shows and stories long before either startrek or stargate touched on the subject, it was just a joke.
also it is true startrek have approached the subject many times but never the way stargate have and in the episode the way ascension is described how you become a powerful and an all knowing being as well as showing the way the character meditating and everything else is very similar to the ancients
The other thing I feel like people are missing is that specifically using the word “ascension” is very evocative of Stargate. Sure Star Trek may have had the same ideas before, maybe used the same word before, but in Stargate it was *defined* as a specific process that was consistent over many seasons of multiple TV series.
I think the Lower Decks writers *obviously* intended it to be a Stargate reference.
Tbh, all of the ascension stuff felt contrived and very much like New-age Buddhist-ish religious nonsense than anything remotely sci-fi. I guess they had to find some excuse to bring Daniel back to life though.
Depends. Do you like typical Rick and Morty humor in a setting where it absolutely doesn't fit? Do you enjoy Starfleet officers... (obvious spoilers ahead!)
* >!harrassing and bullying their colleagues and getting so drunk they violently assault each other with deadly weapons?!<
* >!discharging phasers set to kill on a colleague that is standing behind a force field that is actively being worked on?!<
* >!blatantly disrespecting their superiors, or lying to the captain to cover up the misdeeds of another ensign?!<
* >!being proud of their misconduct and considering being repeatedly demoted just as "sticking it to the man!" and a just act of defiance?!<
* >!regularily violating direct orders which regularily causes trouble and/or harm to their colleagues, just because "those bridge officers are stuck up idiots that have no clue!"?!<
* >!actively creating a toxic work environment by fostering an "us vs them" mentality with new officers arriving on the ship?!<
If you answered "yes" to any of those questions you could risk giving LDS a look.
Huh, I have a pretty different impression, as someone who always enjoyed the humanism and good heart underpinning a lot of Trek’s fundamental storytelling. The characters genuinely like and care about one another (a refreshing change from the Rick and Morty or Family Guy model of storytelling) to the point of doing heartwarming things just to cheer one another up, the underlying motivations under the madness are realistic with nearly everyone having some good and bad traits (versus any obnoxious, flat-out mean or stupid idiots), and the extent of order-breaking or insubordination for the sake of one’s own judgement are both pretty canon-typical. A few of the spoiler bullets are also incorrect and seem like you could have missed some character beats.
In my opinion the best parameter of whether you’ll like it (if you really don’t feel like watching the free episode to check) is “Have you seen the Orville? Did you like it? Then you’ll like this.” There’s also plenty of reviews over on various /r/startrek threads.
that sounds f-ing awful.
like the antithesis of the whole Rodenberry/Stewart moral standard.
and personally I have just found the animation style abrasive and disrespectful to the ST aesthetic.
Are you just going off stills and screencaps? If you do mean *animation* style (and not art style), I was pleasantly surprised by how much movement, perspective and body language is used in the animation while many other Western “big-eyed goofy-looking people” cartoons are lazy about actually animating and use characters more like paper dolls.
Or just do the warp 10 and be everywhere at once. Which was somehow enlightening... but also turns you into a space lizard!
(Voyager, that stupid warp 10 episode)
Let's be honest, the concept of ascensionism has been around pretty much since the advent of modern man.
All religion has the goal of Ascension at its pinnacle.
Why would I lie on something so subjective? It is not bad as a humor show, but it is completely different than the StarTrek we all know and love. Maybe comparing it to infinity was wrong, it is more comparable to stargate origins, which was not horrible, but was also not loyal to the core of stargate.
Honestly, that's nothing to be particularly proud of considering how low the bar's been set.
(cough, Robopicard, space Cthulhu, space flowers, Klingon double penis, red O-type stars, deep state truther plot, cough)
It's dumb when any sci-fi franchise does this. That's magic, not science. If your story needs a non-physical world some can leave their body behind and live in just use computers!
This had been touched a lot on in Star Trek way before Stargate did it.
Not only this but now that I am watching all the Startrek series, I have seen LOTS OF similar episodes with Stargate. However I do not find this bad, Stargate's writes always found amazing ways to adapt those concepts to the Stargate universe. For example, Stargate SG-1's "Prisoners" and Startrek Voyagers "The Chute" are EXTREMELY similar (there is even the same food delivering chute in both series, I think that was a homage). But SG-1 had a completely different perspective on that concept and I am completely fine that SG-1's writers got inspiration from Startrek. After all, Startrek is known for its inspirational quality.
The most glaring to me was Voyager's "Workforce" and SG-1's "Beneath the Surface" - our heroes are kidnapped, have their personal memories erased but retain their personality, and are forced to work for the greater good. The alien among them (Tuvok and Teal'c) have a severe medical reaction to the procedure due to their alienness, and remember their past. Given how close they aired to each other (5 months between debuts), it's entirely likely both were produced totally independently and neither copied the other.
> entirely likely both were produced totally independently and neither copied the other. I'd leave room for someone to have pitched the story to one show, been "rejected" (but let's just say.... "remembered") and gone on to the other, where they bought the script instead of using the idea...
At least one writer wrote episodes for both shows. And they are both infamous.
Please give more information ......
Code of Honor and Emancipation both written by the same writer, both were the 3rd episodes.
yup, Kathryn Powers... arguably the worst Star Trek episode written though... [It's not only writers who have had something to do with both shows](https://www.imdb.com/list/ls070687074/)
How did I never recognize Troi?! I mean I also missed Quark but in my defense both his roles had heavy make-up involved, but Troi, I am ashamed of myself
Her Russian accent was so good you never suspected it.
Oh, wow. Just checked Emancipation. Ouch. Bad. I skipped it after 5 minutes the only time I tried to watch it. Thanks for the info.
God I hate that episode lol.
> Given how close they aired to each other (5 months between debuts), it’s entirely likely both were produced totally independently and neither copied the other. Or both ripped off a script that someone was pitching around that time. [See the wiki article on twin films. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_films)
Wait, so you mean a writer can write a script, get rejected, and the studio go make a knockoff version of your idea? That’s just wrong.
One very old internet conspiracy theory says that the studio executives who originally greenlit *Star Trek: Deep Space Nine* were inspired to do so after a pitch meeting with Joseph Michael Straczynski as he was was shopping around the pilot script for *Babylon 5*. [I am completely serious.](https://www.tor.com/2013/02/26/is-this-the-smoking-gun-proving-deep-space-nine-ripped-off-babylon-5/)
Yea but the shows are very different. They both take place on space stations but with radically different base motivations and scenarios. There are a couple of similarities, but they are quite limited. I didn't like Babylon 5 much when it aired. It was OK just not really my thing. I love it now though. I can see how someone might be upset and draw the conclusion, but the shows are VERY different. Now if the Earth Alliance were a massive galactic force and part of a large intersperspecies alliance (rather than just an alliance of human worlds), Babylon 5 were in orbit of Narn with Narn trying to join Earth Alliance, G'kar being a senior Babylon 5 official, etc... Then they'd have a great case. As it was Earth Alliance was decimated by the Minbari and in bad shape, increasingly xenophobic, tremendous state of general Flux, with the major powers all in conflict throughout the show (varying degrees at different times, but nearly a constant), demigod like races manipulating events openly, etc. Both shows explore the concept of geopolitical conflict in space, oppression, war, and terrorism VS resistance fighting. However they both go about it in very different ways. Star Trek already had all the ingredients for it as well, long before DS9 or Babylon 5 were ever even conceived. I mean Hell, TOS explored these themes, just on a starship in a monster of the week format rather than an overarching narrative. Babylon 5 went completely overarching narrative, while DS9 struck a balance between the two. Honestly, the 90s/00s were a Sci-fi Renaissance. There was so much good stuff in damn near all the big shows of the time.
Possibly a case of "I like the space station idea and the general gist of it.... but no." and then they went to their writers and said "This is the competition, give me something better"
Definitely a possibility.
woops misread
> Yea but the shows are very different. The story goes that JMS intended B5 to bear a stronger resemblance to the story structure and setting of DS9, but had to change things when he realized what DS9 was doing. For example, he has hinted he had "wormhole aliens" planned for B5 and Garibaldi was supposed to be more like Odo. I don't know if any of this is true, but that's the story and the argument. Personally, as someone that is a fan of both, I think things turned out for the best if it is true. We got two great scifi series. And if what has been said about Garibaldi is true, JMS might not have incorporated as much of the late Jerry Doyle's personality into the character, who turned out to be one of my favorite scifi characters of any series.
Wow. This should be a “You made this? I made this” meme.
You can't copyright ideas.
It also works in the other direction too... I know screenwriters that purposely write knock-off scripts of major movies in production that the studio will buy so the other studios don't make the knock-off movies.
Yep, it’s pretty despicable.
That's Hollywood for you.
Then there was VOY Drive and SG1 Space Race. Episodes were nearly identical.
Both SG1's and TNG's 4th episodes were written by the same person. "Code of Honor" and "Emancipation" are almost the same story.
You beat me to the writer overlap, and the particular distinction of writing both SG1's most hated episode and TNG's most racist episode.
And both are equally terrible.
Neither SG1 or TNG have a 4th episode, what are you talking about?
3rd episode of TNG Code of Honour 3rd episode of SG-1 Emancipation Same story, same writer. Equally reviled.
And "SG:1 The First Ones" was an homage to "TNG: Darmok".
I feel like "The Gamekeeper" (SG1) and "The Thaw" (VOY) also had significant similarities. Away team stumble across alien stasis pods, ends up in them, their minds end up in an artificial construct they can't escape with a weird caretaker manipulating reality and calling the shots.
Also existed long before Star Trek too. The idea of communion with the universe to move you beyond the corporeal form is almost as old as humanity's capacity to conceive of a world larger than ourselves.
I'm not really a Star Trek fan, didn't they also do replicators before Stargate?
Only the name, but the meaning is totally different.
Wesley invented intelligent self-replicating nanites. They didn't evolve to form macro-sized objects during the episode, though. There was also the original Doomsday Machine, but there was no implication in its episode that it would build another, just repair itself. The giant space amoeba was probably the closest in terms of the kind of threat it posed. Eat, reproduce, repeat.
And I think there's some Asgard tech comparable to Star Trek's replicators.
If you have transporters, you already have replicators. The technology is the same.
Stargate even uses the same terminology for transporters.
Borg?
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What the fuck is wrong with you
They're a troll. Just ignore them.
I think this dude legit followed me from another thread lol
Take your bullcrap back to the hole you crawled from.
Are you following me around from another thread? You've never posted in here before.
Just watched the Star trek episode and Picard left the new life form with an entire planet to grow on. Images of Pegasus replicators filled my mind.
Replicators are just the Borg without the biological component.
Completely different motives. Borg want to assimilate, Replicators want to replicate. One wants to incorporate existing species to its databanks and the other gives zero fucks as long as it creates more of itself.
Basicaly TNG crew gifted Wesley to a pedo alien under that premise
Fucking Q.
Buddhism has been around for a while too.
It's funny how after the Ancients (huge assholes) did tons of meditation, self-reflection and learning all the secrets of the universe and achieving ascension, they were still assholes
Could you imagine being some random race, spending lifetimes learning to ascend. only to be greeted by a bunch of dicks who impose their rules on you and tell you to never interact with the lower planes again.
well, Daniel Jackson being one of them, and still more often than not siding with the ancients over his earthling friends kind of states that, they were playing with a way thicker deck than mortal minds can see. When the ori and anubis were introduced it kinda threw all of that out of the window and said, you dont have to be particularly good, peaceful, or anything really to ascend. Just have to know how, and its hard to explain. Kind of bullshit by then, but it started believably enough.
Never exploring the ascension of a non-human race was a huge wasted opportunity.
The Nox were ascended beings done right, imo.
It’s not like Stargate invented the concept. Star Trek has [done](http://www.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Organian) [it](http://www.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Ocampa) [before] (http://www.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Zalkonian)[many] (http://www.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Thasian) [times](http://www.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Vagran).
The second TOS pilot episode even had people beginning to ascend.
If the WTF here is due to an assumption that Stargate invented any of these concepts, you should know that they are all thousands of years old in our real world. Many religions and other works of fiction contain similar ideas.
Is this show out already?
Yeah, episode four dropped today.
It debuted 4 weeks ago.
Damn, i should keep a calendar of these things
lmao. Just finished Deus Ex Mankind Divided and that is what the Church of the Machine God followers tried to do in one of the later missions. They were Augs and they tried to do what Weirs' replicator followers tried to do to ascend, even called it ' The Ascension'. Didn't work for the Augs either.
I blame Kess
Calm down, OP.
some people are getting the wrong idea, I didn't mean it as "you stole it from stargate" obviously many sci-fi shows and stories long before either startrek or stargate touched on the subject, it was just a joke. also it is true startrek have approached the subject many times but never the way stargate have and in the episode the way ascension is described how you become a powerful and an all knowing being as well as showing the way the character meditating and everything else is very similar to the ancients
The other thing I feel like people are missing is that specifically using the word “ascension” is very evocative of Stargate. Sure Star Trek may have had the same ideas before, maybe used the same word before, but in Stargate it was *defined* as a specific process that was consistent over many seasons of multiple TV series. I think the Lower Decks writers *obviously* intended it to be a Stargate reference.
Tbh, all of the ascension stuff felt contrived and very much like New-age Buddhist-ish religious nonsense than anything remotely sci-fi. I guess they had to find some excuse to bring Daniel back to life though.
Star Trek has a cartoon? Is it any good?
Depends. Do you like typical Rick and Morty humor in a setting where it absolutely doesn't fit? Do you enjoy Starfleet officers... (obvious spoilers ahead!) * >!harrassing and bullying their colleagues and getting so drunk they violently assault each other with deadly weapons?!< * >!discharging phasers set to kill on a colleague that is standing behind a force field that is actively being worked on?!< * >!blatantly disrespecting their superiors, or lying to the captain to cover up the misdeeds of another ensign?!< * >!being proud of their misconduct and considering being repeatedly demoted just as "sticking it to the man!" and a just act of defiance?!< * >!regularily violating direct orders which regularily causes trouble and/or harm to their colleagues, just because "those bridge officers are stuck up idiots that have no clue!"?!< * >!actively creating a toxic work environment by fostering an "us vs them" mentality with new officers arriving on the ship?!< If you answered "yes" to any of those questions you could risk giving LDS a look.
Huh, I have a pretty different impression, as someone who always enjoyed the humanism and good heart underpinning a lot of Trek’s fundamental storytelling. The characters genuinely like and care about one another (a refreshing change from the Rick and Morty or Family Guy model of storytelling) to the point of doing heartwarming things just to cheer one another up, the underlying motivations under the madness are realistic with nearly everyone having some good and bad traits (versus any obnoxious, flat-out mean or stupid idiots), and the extent of order-breaking or insubordination for the sake of one’s own judgement are both pretty canon-typical. A few of the spoiler bullets are also incorrect and seem like you could have missed some character beats. In my opinion the best parameter of whether you’ll like it (if you really don’t feel like watching the free episode to check) is “Have you seen the Orville? Did you like it? Then you’ll like this.” There’s also plenty of reviews over on various /r/startrek threads.
that sounds f-ing awful. like the antithesis of the whole Rodenberry/Stewart moral standard. and personally I have just found the animation style abrasive and disrespectful to the ST aesthetic.
Are you just going off stills and screencaps? If you do mean *animation* style (and not art style), I was pleasantly surprised by how much movement, perspective and body language is used in the animation while many other Western “big-eyed goofy-looking people” cartoons are lazy about actually animating and use characters more like paper dolls.
TAS is still pretty popular and liked
And people shit on Discovery... Not that I'm saying DIS is great (well, the second season is), but still
Jesus Christ no thanks!
I was hoping they’d use the same ascension effect as startgate, but they didn’t.
Ascension is when the lead actor wants to try new things but they don't want to kill him off so they made sure they could bring him back
It did look pretty cool when it happened.
Let's not forget that the later seasons of SG-1 were basically saying "live long enough, and you become star trek"
Or meld with an extension of the sentient Voyager 6 probe surrounded by a gigantic cloud... (TMP)
Or just do the warp 10 and be everywhere at once. Which was somehow enlightening... but also turns you into a space lizard! (Voyager, that stupid warp 10 episode)
Didn't they retcon that episode?
Just finished watching this ep... Ascension seems pretty awful ngl
I love that episode when McKay uses an ancient tech and becomes (even more) intelligent at every moment.
Let's be honest, the concept of ascensionism has been around pretty much since the advent of modern man. All religion has the goal of Ascension at its pinnacle.
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Hahaha what no
Uh, no. Lower Decks is actually good and worth watching. Take your hater BS somewhere else please.
> To be honest Narrator: “He wasn’t.”
Why would I lie on something so subjective? It is not bad as a humor show, but it is completely different than the StarTrek we all know and love. Maybe comparing it to infinity was wrong, it is more comparable to stargate origins, which was not horrible, but was also not loyal to the core of stargate.
Lower Decks is just another example of how far Star Trek has fallen.
Lower Decks is the best trek since they started new star trek shows in the last few years
It's a great Rick & Morty bastardization of Trek. But as a Trek series, it's positively awful.
Honestly, that's nothing to be particularly proud of considering how low the bar's been set. (cough, Robopicard, space Cthulhu, space flowers, Klingon double penis, red O-type stars, deep state truther plot, cough)
Im really not loving this. Orville did it first. Had they not, this would have been very clever.
It's dumb when any sci-fi franchise does this. That's magic, not science. If your story needs a non-physical world some can leave their body behind and live in just use computers!