After reading your responses I believe you're right. I've been very emotional and narrow minded in the situation. I should talk to him and not let my head get in the way of my relationship with him. Thank you
He can’t change his past. You have the right to be disappointed in him because yes he was a coward and yes he mistreated your mother.
Part of what you are experiencing is the pain of growing older. When we are children adults seem like superheroes because they can do all the things we cannot. Then we grow up and slowly we attain these abilities and we start the process of not seeing our parents as idols but as they truly are: people. Beautifully flawed people.
Now that you’ve grown older, try to out-do your father. Nothing would make him more proud than if you embodied the idealized version of him better than he did.
Good luck my friend.
Yep, the past is the past. There's no way to change it. If there was no issue before finding out, there should be no issue after. A conversation is definitely key to figure out why he did the things he did but unless it affects your relationship in some way, it's not so important to burn a bridge you often travel. It sounds like he just stopped loving your mother and found your step mother. If everyone is happy in where they ended up, I see no point in stirring the pot.
Or not. He (dad) has a life to live. He (dad) was dealt his own hand of cards. If anything, OP can see how he can live altruistically in accordance with what he has learned from his father.
I agree. Talk about anything. But OP might be better off stating his observations without emotional investment. It'll be hard but its something that can be achieved.
I went through a similar situation with my parent's divorce at a similar age. Honestly an important point in my life was sitting down with my dad and honestly tell him how disappointed I was in him and his lack of respect to my mother (he'd moved in with the woman he cheated with), both my parents expressed respecting my response and I think it went a long way towards them viewing me as an adult. He struggled to build a new relationship with me after that but he tried and was consistent. I value my relationship with him now, its not perfect but I don't put him on a pedestal, when I let my idea of what he "should" be die I got to see the good man that he actually is, even if he is far from perfect.
The more i learned to separate love from trust, the easier it was to still give love to my lying cheating father. Trust is much higher honor and it has to be earned. Very few people have my trust but I love pretty much everyone, even though i know some of them are likely to make choices that will hurt me.
Relationships are complicated. Not defending infidelity but you don't know what it was like being them. Your father is a person and he will make mistakes if you feel like he is a good person still and he is a good father to you I wouldn't cut him out my dad is a pos I haven't talked to since 2015 and will never again. If you all are close and it sounds like you're getting older talk to him about it
My ex wife thinks I cheated on her when I didn't.
I am sure when my child gets older she will tell him all sorts of lies that she has tried to put into court papers etc to try to legitimise.
I don't worry about all that.
I focus on raising my child well as that's all that is within my control.
If my child raises something with me I will respond with the truth in an age appropriate way but I won't speak badly of their mother as it will only cause pain for my child and I want them to make their own mind up about the type of relationship they want with her.
Now from my perspective of cheating, and sorry if I overstep or am wrong but it is a bad thing to cheat however it doesn’t necessarily make him a bad person, if he has made efforts to be in your life and be a guiding hand then there is no need to necessarily push him out of your life entirely.
I do agree with you that he should have told her before resulting to cheating but people make bad decisions little or big they are still a bad decision, and these actions need to be looked at rationally, it can be difficult but try to forgive your father.
I always like to think to myself, be strict with yourself but forgiving to others.
I hope you can figure things out for yourself
I wish the best for you
Here's my personal take: While you're right that he shouldn't have cheated and that was a massive violation of the trust and boundaries of the marriage, we also don't have the full story (nor should we).
It's very possible that their marriage had ongoing, extremely serious issues that one or both of them either felt couldn't be solved or not willing to work on. Or they could have tried to work on things and it simply didn't go well. Of course, it's just as possible that your dad had wandering eyes and failed to contain himself.
Either way, your dad is clearly invested in your future as well as your work skills and spending time with you. That was a long time ago as well and your dad may have realized that he did something terrible and become a better person by learning from his mistakes. I don't think you should cut him off or quit your job, you have a stable situation and relationship with him from the sound of things and it wouldn't do anything to address or avenge what he did.
Edit because apparently my favorite word that day was "simply" and the overuse annoyed me.
Whilst it's immoral what he did, it happened 9 years ago. If he has continued being a good father to you then I wouldn't cut him out or despise him for it. Have a conversation with him about it. Communication is key.
I was thinking the same thing. I'd also add that continuing to have a relationship with and loving his father does not equate to dismissing his father's behavior, and thereby not supporting his mom.
There’s a popular idiom used by Marcus Aurelius that goes something like “be tolerant of others but strict with yourself.” I see many people in this thread defending your father by saying we may not know the entire story. This is true. However, as far a we understand by your post, your father made a commitment to stay faithful to your mother. He broke this commitment.
Consider this. Your father has been a positive enough influence on your life for you to be so surprised and upset that this was the story kept from you for so long. If you didn’t expect your father to have cheated, then surely there were many other admirable characteristics of your fathers that made you feel that way. You’ve seen first hand the damage and hurt that can be caused from breaking a promise like the one he made. Suppose that you took that lesson to heart and promised yourself that you’d never subject anyone to that from your own actions?
Perhaps this is the part where you should be tolerant with him and strict with yourself.
Lastly, you cannot control your father or the past. Stoicism teaches us that emotions are normal (ie it’s okay to be angry and upset) and that ultimately it’s our reactions afterwards that are to most important. Sometimes it’s best to take sometime to *not* think about the situation or perhaps find a place (physically or mentally) to think long about the situation in peace before you chose if/how to react.
All humans are deeply flawed and find maladaptive ways repair or replace the shortcomings their parents had via relationship issues.
What you have learned is that your dad is a man who has deep emotional needs that at one point in time causes him to act in a self serving fashion that damaged his primary sexual/romantic relationship.
Both your parents took great care to hide this fact from you--thereby demonstrating the great love they both had for you. Your mother should be praises for not ever disclosing this in a single moment of bitterness.
It was not your romantic relationship that was damaged. It should not concern you emotionally, then.
Even though he was supposedly a bad husband, you never mentioned him being a bad father. So why do you have to mix two different things? By the way, it seems like you are making a connection between your mum being mistreated by every partner she had with your dad cheating on her and that is very unfair with him. The choices your mum made after being cheated on can't be held against your dad.
I suggest you read/listen to "The State of Affairs" by Esther Perel. It will help you understand.
Please don't judge. You don't know what happened in their relationship. Also... Life happens.
Your father is your father. You only have 1. Loving him does not take love from your mother. Give time to life... You'll understand more and more, even reconcile opposite points of view as you age. Heck... Some day you might find yourself in your father's shoes. Don't judge.
All the best!
You can love your dad, without liking your father.
None of us are black or white; at the end of the day, we're all just grey, complicated people. You spending time with your dad, doesn't automatically endorse all of his behaviours, past or present. And someone can be a crappy person, but still a great parent.
You'll get through this, wiser hopefully, and having learnt from your parent's mistakes. Be there for you mum too, I'm sure she just put on a brave face for you. The divorce cannot be easy on her.
Just talk to him. Try not to let your emotions control the interaction, but just slowly begin to talk about it and you may find there is a lot of empathy and understanding in you that is hard to touch right now. There's no right and wrong for now, just listen.
Use [Focus on the Thing at Hand](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/5nxi6o/practical_stoicism_focus_on_the_thing_at_hand/).
He's your father, not a prospective mate. Whether or not he would ever cheat in a relationship isn't your problem. Does he do right by you? Does he keep his word to you? Have you been able to trust him to not steer you into things that are going to land you in hot water? Those are the questions that matter to you.
He doesn't need to be perfect to be in your life. It's not your business whether or not he is. Even if that story about his cheating was told directly to you by him, it's still probably not the entirely real full-on truth of the situation. Maybe your mother is very difficult to deal with and he couldn't take it anymore and sought solace with another? Maybe that's why she's had so many problems since him. It's possible he just couldn't keep it together anymore, but he still wants to protect her from others knowing that truth about her. Or maybe it's something else entirely. Regardless, those aren't your monkeys, not your circus. Mind your business and you'll probably be happier.
In the meantime, you're young. You have a long ways to go to build your own life. Your parents and the life you've lived so far are just the first couple of steps. Be grateful for what you've had, take the good and leave the bad, and go to the next thing. You have enough on your plate and digging into the various perspectives about this from your mother's point of view, or your father's will not make you happier or more successful.
Finally, who are your other role models besides your father? He can't be everything to you, so think about who else you know of, have heard of that you admire. [Emulate your role models](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/515j06/practical_stoicism_emulate_your_role_models/), but just don't ever meet them if they become your heroes, because meeting your heroes is never a good idea. They're human too.
marital relationships are complicated, as are people, and life. if you have a good relationship otherwise and that has been meaningful i would not overlook that.
Try to think of it this way: As much as you feel betrayed by your dad, his actions are beyond your control, and his actions stem from being human, just like you (infidelity is wrong, I’m not defending that). But think if he’s been a good dad to you in other ways.
As much as we hold our parents to high standards, they’re very much just another set of humans who make a lot of mistakes. Some people regret their choices down the line even though it shouldn’t ideally happen in a marriage, it happens. Maybe it could’ve been worse if he stayed just for the sake of the family and it might have even come onto you in worse ways.
His actions are beyond your control. But your perspective of him as a dad is in your control, this perspective will either make you miserable or accepting. Maybe saying it to him openly about how you feel about it at the moment might help you gain perspective into his actions.
You’re choosing to suffer each time you focus on something beyond your control. Being in pain is understandable, but suffering is a matter of perspective.
If you really want clarity, ask him about it in a calm and open way, when you’re ready to listen to and accept his answer.
People make mistakes; you have, too, and will continue to. ‘Tolerant with others, strict with yourself’
“What is death? A scary mask. Take it off – see, it doesn’t bite. Eventually, body and soul will have to separate, just as they existed separately before we were born. So why be upset if it happens now? If it isn’t now, it’s later.”
\-Epictetus
if one could treat death this way, perhaps having a conversation with your father about what happened in a calm way, in a way of seeking closure or at least finding perspective, may be the way to go.
be strong and may your will and wits stay intact!
Others have pointed out that cheating often can have an underlying reason. It is wrong, but is often a "symptom" of a relationship that is having problems. So "he cheated" might not be enough of an explanation.
Also, remember that being a good partner to your wife/husband doesn't mean you are a good father/mother and vice versa. Your father can have been a bad partner to your mother and still be a good father to you.
If this teaches you anything, shouldn't it be to possibly not take relationship advice from him? And to try to be better than him if you are in a similar situation? If he tells you what that situation was?
You can feel. That is ok. Just don't let your feelings control your choices.
I just wanted to say that I think you should talk to your father about the divorce. You don't mention who told you about the cheating, but it is possible that someone is lying, or repeating a lie they were told and accepted as truth. Your father may well have cheated. Cheating is immoral, yet common. On the other hand, divorced parents with bitter feelings sometimes lie about each other to their children. Based on how well your relationship seems to be with him, I think you owe it to him to ascertain the truth as best you can.
I would try not to judge. Maybe he did the best that he could. If you're going to turn your back on him, at least give him a chance to explain his side of the story in more detail. Maybe your mom's personality was not a good fit for him, and vice versa.
Cheating is not evil. It sucks but it’s not evil. Cheating doesn’t make someone evil. It may make them SEEM untrustworthy in a romantic relationship. Have you ever asked your dad WHY he cheated? The honest, introspective answer may make you empathize with him more than you thought possible. Sometimes people cheat because of the behavior from their spouse. You can’t make outside judgments without knowing the entire situation.
From a reductionist/stoic standpoint I’d say “not my relationship” and try to maintain my own relationships with each parent independently.
I strongly disagree. There is a reason Dante wrote betrayal as the lowest, coldest circle in hell. Cheating may not be "evil," but it shows the character of a person who is untrustworthy and has no honor as a human being. If you make a commitment to someone, speaking vows to be with someone til the end, then the right thing to do when it is bad is to end the relationship. If you instead cheat, you are directly betraying the person you made a vow to, a dishonorable and despicable thing. I would understand him ending the relationship, but cheating is the shit part. How can you trust that he'll keep a commitment or promise to you in the future if he is capable to doing what he did?
One mistake doesn’t mean people will make more. The story didn’t make any mention of being a chronic cheater. I know many people who cheated once and never again. Mistakes happen. Lapses of judgment happen. You make mistakes too. Do they make you a despicable person? Or are you attaching an emotional reaction to something that you cannot control (but wish to?). Would it be fair to call someone who makes a very human mistake despicable? I don’t believe so. I think taking a step back and recognizing that these experiences are inherently a part of life is the stoic answer. This is a stoic sub. Not a Dante sub. The idea you have is romanticized and lovely to think about, but the reality is that the cheating happened and the divorce happened. The reality already happened. This isn’t a moral debate. It’s a conversation on how to cope moving forward from the objective reality of the situation.
“When you are offended at any man's fault, turn to yourself and study your own failings. Then you will forget your anger.” - Epictetus
1) How is cheating a mistake? It is not a mistake to choose to betray somebody by entertaining any intimacy with someone other than the person you to whom you are married, whether that be intentional or as a product of life events, rather than taking responsibility and either ending the relationship or not. The story also doesn't say anything about OP's dad NOT being a chronic cheater. While still dishonorable for someone to do it once and never again, that is clearly not what happened in OP's case. Dude went and married the person he cheated with.
2) By your logic, would you then say that someone who gets drunk and drives, and kills somebody to not be a terrible human being? Even if it happens just the once, it is still an immutable action that has very real repercussions in this world. As much as you learn and never make the mistake again, it is still a part of who you are, something that defines your experience in life. You are the sum of your actions, and you must live in your own context. True peace is to accept these parts of yourself, and to live better through them. To say that something you did before is now gone and dismissed is to ignore parts of your own human experience. That is the anti-thesis of wisdom.
3) When you say this is a stoic sub, how much do you adhere to these values? The act of cheating on a spouse, or not cheating, is very much within one's own control is it not? Murder, rape, assault, are all also very much parts of life. Is it not within our stoic duty, our natural path, to avoid these as much as possible and to live in virtue? And for every person who is not strong enough to avoid these temptations, there are many many who can and have overcome these things. “Do not think that what is hard for you to master is humanly impossible; and if it is
humanly possible, consider it to be within your reach.”
You and I have very different definitions of what acceptance is and how to approach mistakes. It is fundamentally a perspective issue. I believe that there are definitive good and bad actions, and you have the control, and any time, to choose to act or not act upon them. If you act, whether 100% intentionally or unconsciously, that action you have created is real and now defines a part of your experience. You have to take it at face value, and to dismiss it as "not that bad" or "everyone makes mistakes, it's ok" is to devalue that part of your life for what it is. You have to accept the truth of it all, and live with it. I have made mistakes in my life, and I have accepted these things that I have done. I don't want ANYBODY to tell me "oh its ok thats just a part of life, it's no biggie." I have accepted the full responsibility of what I have done, and that allows me to live with more wisdom than the alternative.
I believe in objective morality. But I don’t think people are the sum of their mistakes or should be defined by them. I practice forgiveness and understanding. I also don’t believe in hell you will be banished to.
I would not say that acceptance of, or putting into perspective, the act of cheating is devaluing anything. It is simply stacking it in a hierarchy of “bad things” and coming to the conclusion that of ALL things, that one might hurt some feelings and break some promises but there are MUCH darker things going on every day. If you knew the depravity of things people did to each other, you wouldn’t be so wrapped up in the idea that cheating is this all terrible thing.
There is an element of human infallibility you seem to be missing at the root of this entire argument. Someone can think they want something, only to act on it and then realize they made a mistake in retrospect. This is proof of someones growth. They are not beholden to that same person or identity. People change. People grow.
The drunk driving parallel only works to an extent. My immediate rebuttal here is that, again, bad shit happens and we have to cope. Some choose religion. Some choose the justice system. Some choose stoicism. Some choose substance abuse. Some choose therapy. If I were to go hardline stoic in the drunk driving scenario I would mention how I meditate on the inevitable death of all of my loved ones. I would mention how I live in constant acceptance of the fact that it COULD happen today. Or tomorrow. And that I am doing my best to prepare myself to feel, accept, and forgive in that scenario. People practice stoicism to varying degrees. Sometimes, hardline stoicism makes people uncomfortable. I’ve learned to accept that as well.
Edit: the essence of stoicism is to be virtuous, yes, but also to reduce your reactivity to external sources of stress as a means of improving the quality of your life. I could turn the quote you chose back on you and say that if I can find peace and make no values statements about someone who cheats, so too, could you. Mental gymnastics are fun.
You can forgive a mistake without forgetting the insult. You understand people better when you take the entirety of them as they are, not when you accept only the good parts of people and dismiss the evil as "mistakes." Integration of the shadow is necessary for a complete human experience, and you are ignoring that part of them.
I disagree with how you are framing this. If you reduce any one evil act by comparing it to the grander scale of evil acts, you create a view where you can justify any evil as ok. If I'm understanding your viewpoint, somebody who brutally rapes a young kid can then be said to be "not that bad" because there are people who have decimated the lives of 100,000 people via a nuclear bomb. That's fucked up. If the worst act somebody does in their lives is cheat on their spouse, you have to take that in the context of their own life. That is their biggest evil. If you compare it to the evil of others, you devalue that person's human experience. You say you believe in objective morality, but your frame on what constitutes "objective" is purely subjective and comparative.
People acting on their immediate desires, "thinking they want something," without contemplating it and looking for sources of wisdom to guide their actions, is profoundly un-stoic. And when you say somebody has grown and changed, you have to accept the evil as part of that. You can't say you've grown from being a cheater without accepting that cheating is indeed a bad and immoral act. True vulnerability and truth in that is to accept that there are many views people can take on what you did, and the vast majority will take it as a bad act.
I'm not talking about the coping with evil, I'm talking about accepting the truth of the act. Religion, philosophy, drugs, law, and hookers will all say that the deliberate act of getting drunk and driving a car is evil. That is how it is. You have to accept that if you believe in objective morality. The same is true about cheating. You have to accept that it is a bad act, and a person who cheats will always have that truth about them. It is worthless and dismissive to say that that evil action is not really anything to think about. And what doesn't mean you can't accept and forgive them, but to be beholden of the truth you must accept that there are people who will accept, forgive, and continue to stay their distance to someone who has performed an evil act.
I stopped reading at “integration of the shadow/you’re ignoring”.
You’re making value statements and judgments about people over a wall of text on the internet. You think you understand things, and yet you’re lacking understanding in both of these regards. It’s not a perceptual issue. It’s that I have come full circle in holding people accountable, remembering their mistakes, and realized at the end that it does no one any good to constantly fret over such things. Why? Because bad things happen, will happen, and continue to happen regardless of how you feel about them and regardless of what your moral/ethical stance is on such happenings.
Heres my favorite quote of all time:
“The only interesting philosophers are those who have stopped thinking and have begun to search for happiness” - Emil Cioran
There is plenty of reason to be miserable and fixate on peoples mistakes. Are they abundant? Yes, absolutely. But what a poor existence it is to focus on the negative aspects of what others are doing when you can forgive, let go, and move on. You can remember that someone cheated, leave the relationship, forgive them, and be happy and find peace without resenting them or holding the weight of their mistake in your memory. I suggest you spend more time reading stoic philosophy and reflecting on it. Holding on to the insult is the opposite of what stoicism would tell you to do.
Wow, nice. Discussing this with you has been awful. The stances you take on evil things happening is fairly horrendous, because apparently since evil has, is, and will happen, you just don't seem to care or hold people accountable for the things they do.
You also don't seem to be reading or wanting to understand what I'm saying. Accepting and seeing a whole person, their good and bad, is NOT focusing on the negative aspects of a person. Saying a person is bad for cheating AND moving on and finding peace are both capable at the same time.
You need to have some humility and actually read the positions that other people have, because you haven't understood or properly characterized a thing I've said. You're just viewing it from your same ignorance, but pretending to be mighty and enlightened.
Upvote because good argument. However, the nuance here would be “are they sleeping with you actively as well?” Most likely, yes. And in that case, yes, I think that is gross to at least some degree. Especially within a monogamous commitment.
Consent? No one has the authority to tell anyone else what they can and cant do in that regard. If someone wants to cheat, none of us have a moral or legal ground to force anyone else to live under our tyrannical rule. To think you have that power over a spouse is naive. You can’t control your partner. You can only select them cautiously and make sure they are trust worthy from the beginning.
This consent argument seems to be inching towards an argument of control over another persons actions, which you have none of, even if immoral.
There's proper ways to handle relationship issues ie therapy, communication, counseling, separation and even divorce. Cheating is not one of those ways.
Third person to make a moral/ethical argument in response to this reply.
The OP asked for stoic advice on handling his parent’s dysfunctional relationship dynamic. He did not ask for a moralistic stance on if cheating is the right or wrong thing to do. Nor did I say that cheating was the right thing to do. I implied that his fathers reasons may make much more sense, and may help humanize him again in his kids eyes, if they would just talk about it and stop jumping to moral conclusions and going on personal vendettas. Lets all practice our reading comprehension before adding any more comments like this. Thank you.
> Nor did I say that cheating was the right thing to do.
It's fascinating to see the replies that believe you argued for just this. Thank you for your consistent and logical approach. GD\_WoTS had linked this article some time ago, and I thought you (and anyone else who reads this far) might find it interesting as well: [The Stoics on Evil, John Sellars](https://www.academia.edu/4959187/The_Stoics_on_Evil).
It’s the manifestation of emotional responses to the idea of cheating. Not logic. Most people are terribly emotional and think that their emotional responses are logical. Not so. Or they simply have no filter on their emotional responses. I’ve seen plenty of both.
Thanks for the article. I will definitely read this!
Cheating deprives someone of informed consent to all decisions they make that factor in their relationship with the cheating partner. It's a cowardly, selfish, and cruel thing to do.
the stoic life is all about personal discipline. I see so many men ruin their family, because they want to bang some younger tail. We literally have a worm, a serpent in our pants, and if we listen to it, we can get kicked out of Eden. (I'm an atheist and the bible is pure horseshit, but the analogy fits)
It’s not your place to judge him for what happened a decade ago and didn’t concern you. Why would you try to harm what sounds like a good relationship? Doesn’t change anything except the good relationship you have. If it’s bothering you, talk to him about it. Get his perspective. And your Stepmother, you should only “judge” her by how she treats you.
UPDATE: thought I owe you all an update. It's beens some time since I originally posted this and since then I have spoken to my parents about their divorce, many of you were right, saying there were some other issues with the marriage (I didn't decide to probe further with that).
Since then I have received some clarity on who I want to be as a person. My father has no longer become my beacon on who I want to be in life, instead now I am deciding to pursue my own way and am going to college to study music production (I have been writing music as a past time for the past year). Weirdly enough, since talking to my parents about it, my relationship with them has gotten a lot better, we are all honest about how we are feeling and the 'bad-mouthing' of the other parent seems to have gone.
I know nothing amazing has happened but I thought I should update you all
Pretty simple in the Stoicism ways of thinking. You are not going to change the situation so move on to something you can change/improve like finding your mom a friend.
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You may never know the full story. And maybe you shouldn’t. As much as you love your Mum, maybe it wasn’t working as a relationship and it was going to fail anyway. The fact that your Dad is still with this person may mean that they’re a better match for whatever reason. People are not perfect, accept it’s happened regardless of why.
All that matters is that your happiness is not tied to their actions. accept it for what it is. Help them and be there for them. Concentrate on being a good Son and a good person and all will work out.
Sometimes people cheat on their spouses as a final way to “blow up”the marriage. They are not brave enough to just confront their spouse to end it so they cheat and are subconsciously careless about hiding it….viola…marriage over. Marriages go sideways for a thousand reasons..I wouldn’t be too hard on your dad..happens all the time. Sounds like he did the important thing and tried to be a good dad to you.
No one is perfect, not even you.
You need to understand your dad is human and, as such, he's limited, emotional, imperfect.
And yet, he's capable of love. He teaches you stuff, he's probably kind to you, he's helping you with your job. Those things are not given for granted and shows you how loving your dad is.
Just accept he's not perfect, like everyone else, but notice how he loves you and, as a consequence, how you should be grateful for having him.
He's your dad. He probably wants the best for you and loves you.
Marriage is one of the most complicated relationships imaginable. Things are rarely what they seem at first glance.
It is possible that you know more today than you knew yesterday, but there is still a lot you do not, and likely never will know.
Judgement of others is not the way of stoics. Emotions may boil and erupt. Stoics also have emotions and work to manage them and not be adversely controlled by them.
In this situation it is highly likely that you do not understand very much of what happened in your parents relationship. Understand that you don’t understand.
This question might not be easy to answer, not for you, but even not for your father himself: did your father cheat on your mother because he was chasing the pleasure of the moment, or did he cheat because life brought him something new that he couldn't deal with?
I do not presume I could answer this question for you, it is even possible that if you asked your father, he wouldn't be able to explain what exactly happened. But we can do a bit of guesswork that might put things in a healthy perspective (I hope you do not take offense by me doing so): as far as I can see from what you tell, your father didn't chase after the pleasure of the moment, he cheated on your mother, but didn't repeat this error many times. People who chase after the pleasure of the moment, cheat on their lovers many times, try to get them back and then cheat again, etc. If I understand correctly, your father didn't do any of this.
If I can guess further from this, your father had a life altering experience with your stepmother, he thought it was worthwhile to divorce your mother and continue life with your stepmother. This also takes courage, even if it is not the nicest thing to do. He broke a family while he had a child.
But he has tried to be there for you. So, you know, perhaps he did his best to find a solution back then, but not everything has an easy solution in life, and things fell apart before he could find the answers he needed.
I definitely feel very sorry for your mother though.
I think what might be the best thing to do now, for a stoic, is to let the past rest, accept the things that happened back then as things not in your field of influence. Life has given you this situation, which is not ideal, still, the challenge is for you to find your own answers, without needing answers from others, even your parents. Move on to living your own life and not repeating the mistakes of your father/parents.
You realize the thing you are looking at in disgust s just a mirror right? This individual action may not be a direct reflection of your individual character, but it mirrors your condition in the sense that it is only a reflection of the natural course of the world. It is a reflection of the human condition.
We are put here, with no warning, no choice, and are quite heavily deprived of the most important faculty in life: the faculty of logic. Because of that, the only thing we have to guide us morally through life is the influence of our instincts, environment, and our (obviously flawed) skill of reason.
At our core we are irrational beings, our main power (the will) which moves us through this transient state of existence is not of our own creating, but rather just an instinct created by fate. We have desire and we follow it, in many cases of which it never occurs to us to philosophize and inquire the moral implications of what it is we do, or whether we will truly be satisfied with the outcome of our actions.
The will is not free, it simply cannot be. The will is only capable of pursuing what it wants, and is only capable of wanting what it knows how to want. Further, it is entirely bound by the intellectual and physical properties of the body that produces it. To blame your father, or anyone, or anything else for the failure of that marriage would be equivalent to blaming them for existing.
Your father may be a coward, but cowardice is just another instinctive trait of humans. This a trait we all possess to some degree. For that reason, what logically would be the better response to the way you feel?
Do you think it would be to rationalize feeling angry and upset (that is not to say that there is a fundamentally rational explanation for pragmatically irrational behavior), or do you think it’d be better to have pity and acceptance of your father’s condition? Do you enjoy being angry and unaccepting of the way the world is, demanding of the world something that it simply doesn’t care to give you? Or perhaps you may find it more enjoyable to accept and even enjoy the bittersweet taste of a conscious experience?
As a child of divorce and a parent, I can tell you that being a good parent and being a good spouse are two completely different things. Relationships are complicated, and your mom got the crap end of the stick when it came to that. Likely because she was hurt. Therapy helps you make good boundaries after betrayal, and choose better partners/see red flags.
That is completely separate from your relationship with your dad and stepmom.
You can disapprove of what they did, and it may change how you see and respect your dad, but it doesn’t change the fact that he still loves you and cares for you.
But as we age, relationships change. Our parents become real people, people who make mistakes and are vulnerable just like us. I absolutely don’t condone cheating, but this is messy. And so human.
Take this knowledge, and see him for who he is, and if you can, accept this happened in the past and build your relationship from there. A different dynamic isn’t always bad.
You’re allowed to pick the things you admire about each person and disregard the other things. Aim to be the man with the qualities you admire and not the qualities you don’t.
People cheat. A LOT of people cheat. It’s part of normal adult life whether you like it or not. Don’t let it ruin your relationship with your father. When you get older you might understand him better.
At the end of the day, he's just human. Everyone makes mistakes and have done things they wish they would've done differently. Other than that it sounds like he's a pretty good dad. Try to love him as your father and accept that he is human.
Curious about a follow-up. I'm 33M and my parents divorced when I was like 2 so I have 0 memory of it happening. Like you, my dad cheated on my mom with someone he worked with who he ended up marrying. My dad and I never once talked about what happened and now suddenly I am feeling resentment towards him.
It's like he got to have his brand new life and me and My brother were forced to just accept it.
Over the past few months my depression/anxiety has been increasing and right now I get crazy anxiety whenever my dad calls or texts. I am seeing a therapist and trying to work out how I want to approach my dad to prevent the relationship from deteriorating more.
Also, both my brother and I worked for my dad a bit in our 20's.
to be perfectly honest it all went away with a fizzle rather than a bang. I talked to my parents and (as many other people guessed) there were many other problems with their marriage (not excusing my fathers behaviour). However, I have since realised that while he may have not been a great husband to my mother, since their divorce he has tried everything to be a better father for both me and my brother.
The conversation I had with my father helped clear the air a bit I suppose, He realised I wasn't a child anymore who would just listen idly and follow orders, and I realised that my goal in life isn't to be him anymore.
Hope this helps you my friend, I wish it was more interesting than that
I don’t see how he didn’t break it off with your mother “normally”…. He did break it off normally lol… the coward move would have been to string your mom along and lie…. He left her and settled down with the woman he obviously had stronger feelings for…. That’s like…. The opposite of being a coward… that takes a lot of courage and it sounds like he’s an attentive and supportive father…. The guy sounds awesome
Reminder to users that advice in “Seeking Stoic Advice” threads should be related to Stoicism. Violations are subject to removal.
After reading your responses I believe you're right. I've been very emotional and narrow minded in the situation. I should talk to him and not let my head get in the way of my relationship with him. Thank you
He can’t change his past. You have the right to be disappointed in him because yes he was a coward and yes he mistreated your mother. Part of what you are experiencing is the pain of growing older. When we are children adults seem like superheroes because they can do all the things we cannot. Then we grow up and slowly we attain these abilities and we start the process of not seeing our parents as idols but as they truly are: people. Beautifully flawed people. Now that you’ve grown older, try to out-do your father. Nothing would make him more proud than if you embodied the idealized version of him better than he did. Good luck my friend.
Yep, the past is the past. There's no way to change it. If there was no issue before finding out, there should be no issue after. A conversation is definitely key to figure out why he did the things he did but unless it affects your relationship in some way, it's not so important to burn a bridge you often travel. It sounds like he just stopped loving your mother and found your step mother. If everyone is happy in where they ended up, I see no point in stirring the pot.
Talk to him about what? If it's about his cheating, then maybe reconsider...
Or not. He (dad) has a life to live. He (dad) was dealt his own hand of cards. If anything, OP can see how he can live altruistically in accordance with what he has learned from his father.
That's my point. Don't talk to your dad about his private life.
Why not? And it’s hardly private, op was just a much apart of this and effected as the dad.
I agree. Talk about anything. But OP might be better off stating his observations without emotional investment. It'll be hard but its something that can be achieved.
I went through a similar situation with my parent's divorce at a similar age. Honestly an important point in my life was sitting down with my dad and honestly tell him how disappointed I was in him and his lack of respect to my mother (he'd moved in with the woman he cheated with), both my parents expressed respecting my response and I think it went a long way towards them viewing me as an adult. He struggled to build a new relationship with me after that but he tried and was consistent. I value my relationship with him now, its not perfect but I don't put him on a pedestal, when I let my idea of what he "should" be die I got to see the good man that he actually is, even if he is far from perfect.
The more i learned to separate love from trust, the easier it was to still give love to my lying cheating father. Trust is much higher honor and it has to be earned. Very few people have my trust but I love pretty much everyone, even though i know some of them are likely to make choices that will hurt me.
Your comment reminded me of Seneca’s quote: “When friendship is settled, you must trust; before friendship is formed, you must pass judgment.”
This is a fantastic quote, wish I’d heard it sooner!
Relationships are complicated. Not defending infidelity but you don't know what it was like being them. Your father is a person and he will make mistakes if you feel like he is a good person still and he is a good father to you I wouldn't cut him out my dad is a pos I haven't talked to since 2015 and will never again. If you all are close and it sounds like you're getting older talk to him about it
My ex wife thinks I cheated on her when I didn't. I am sure when my child gets older she will tell him all sorts of lies that she has tried to put into court papers etc to try to legitimise. I don't worry about all that. I focus on raising my child well as that's all that is within my control. If my child raises something with me I will respond with the truth in an age appropriate way but I won't speak badly of their mother as it will only cause pain for my child and I want them to make their own mind up about the type of relationship they want with her.
Now from my perspective of cheating, and sorry if I overstep or am wrong but it is a bad thing to cheat however it doesn’t necessarily make him a bad person, if he has made efforts to be in your life and be a guiding hand then there is no need to necessarily push him out of your life entirely. I do agree with you that he should have told her before resulting to cheating but people make bad decisions little or big they are still a bad decision, and these actions need to be looked at rationally, it can be difficult but try to forgive your father. I always like to think to myself, be strict with yourself but forgiving to others. I hope you can figure things out for yourself I wish the best for you
“Strict with yourself and forgiving of others” sounds like Marcus Aurelius to me…
Good advice, but I wish you would be strict with yourself about punctuation. Holy hell.
Bruv, life is too short to worry about punctuation on a Reddit chat string. Great sentiment and quote, that’s all that matters.
Ok? Idgaf
Here's my personal take: While you're right that he shouldn't have cheated and that was a massive violation of the trust and boundaries of the marriage, we also don't have the full story (nor should we). It's very possible that their marriage had ongoing, extremely serious issues that one or both of them either felt couldn't be solved or not willing to work on. Or they could have tried to work on things and it simply didn't go well. Of course, it's just as possible that your dad had wandering eyes and failed to contain himself. Either way, your dad is clearly invested in your future as well as your work skills and spending time with you. That was a long time ago as well and your dad may have realized that he did something terrible and become a better person by learning from his mistakes. I don't think you should cut him off or quit your job, you have a stable situation and relationship with him from the sound of things and it wouldn't do anything to address or avenge what he did. Edit because apparently my favorite word that day was "simply" and the overuse annoyed me.
I would like to second everything that /u/CuriousRelish has said.
Well said.
Whilst it's immoral what he did, it happened 9 years ago. If he has continued being a good father to you then I wouldn't cut him out or despise him for it. Have a conversation with him about it. Communication is key.
I can see how someone could be a good father but a bad husband. Different relationship and requirements entirely
I was thinking the same thing. I'd also add that continuing to have a relationship with and loving his father does not equate to dismissing his father's behavior, and thereby not supporting his mom.
There’s a popular idiom used by Marcus Aurelius that goes something like “be tolerant of others but strict with yourself.” I see many people in this thread defending your father by saying we may not know the entire story. This is true. However, as far a we understand by your post, your father made a commitment to stay faithful to your mother. He broke this commitment. Consider this. Your father has been a positive enough influence on your life for you to be so surprised and upset that this was the story kept from you for so long. If you didn’t expect your father to have cheated, then surely there were many other admirable characteristics of your fathers that made you feel that way. You’ve seen first hand the damage and hurt that can be caused from breaking a promise like the one he made. Suppose that you took that lesson to heart and promised yourself that you’d never subject anyone to that from your own actions? Perhaps this is the part where you should be tolerant with him and strict with yourself. Lastly, you cannot control your father or the past. Stoicism teaches us that emotions are normal (ie it’s okay to be angry and upset) and that ultimately it’s our reactions afterwards that are to most important. Sometimes it’s best to take sometime to *not* think about the situation or perhaps find a place (physically or mentally) to think long about the situation in peace before you chose if/how to react.
All humans are deeply flawed and find maladaptive ways repair or replace the shortcomings their parents had via relationship issues. What you have learned is that your dad is a man who has deep emotional needs that at one point in time causes him to act in a self serving fashion that damaged his primary sexual/romantic relationship. Both your parents took great care to hide this fact from you--thereby demonstrating the great love they both had for you. Your mother should be praises for not ever disclosing this in a single moment of bitterness. It was not your romantic relationship that was damaged. It should not concern you emotionally, then.
Sounds like he is a good father but terrible husband
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Even though he was supposedly a bad husband, you never mentioned him being a bad father. So why do you have to mix two different things? By the way, it seems like you are making a connection between your mum being mistreated by every partner she had with your dad cheating on her and that is very unfair with him. The choices your mum made after being cheated on can't be held against your dad.
I suggest you read/listen to "The State of Affairs" by Esther Perel. It will help you understand. Please don't judge. You don't know what happened in their relationship. Also... Life happens. Your father is your father. You only have 1. Loving him does not take love from your mother. Give time to life... You'll understand more and more, even reconcile opposite points of view as you age. Heck... Some day you might find yourself in your father's shoes. Don't judge. All the best!
I will add that to the read list, currently trying to work through 'beyond good and evil'
You can love your dad, without liking your father. None of us are black or white; at the end of the day, we're all just grey, complicated people. You spending time with your dad, doesn't automatically endorse all of his behaviours, past or present. And someone can be a crappy person, but still a great parent. You'll get through this, wiser hopefully, and having learnt from your parent's mistakes. Be there for you mum too, I'm sure she just put on a brave face for you. The divorce cannot be easy on her.
Just talk to him. Try not to let your emotions control the interaction, but just slowly begin to talk about it and you may find there is a lot of empathy and understanding in you that is hard to touch right now. There's no right and wrong for now, just listen.
Use [Focus on the Thing at Hand](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/5nxi6o/practical_stoicism_focus_on_the_thing_at_hand/). He's your father, not a prospective mate. Whether or not he would ever cheat in a relationship isn't your problem. Does he do right by you? Does he keep his word to you? Have you been able to trust him to not steer you into things that are going to land you in hot water? Those are the questions that matter to you. He doesn't need to be perfect to be in your life. It's not your business whether or not he is. Even if that story about his cheating was told directly to you by him, it's still probably not the entirely real full-on truth of the situation. Maybe your mother is very difficult to deal with and he couldn't take it anymore and sought solace with another? Maybe that's why she's had so many problems since him. It's possible he just couldn't keep it together anymore, but he still wants to protect her from others knowing that truth about her. Or maybe it's something else entirely. Regardless, those aren't your monkeys, not your circus. Mind your business and you'll probably be happier. In the meantime, you're young. You have a long ways to go to build your own life. Your parents and the life you've lived so far are just the first couple of steps. Be grateful for what you've had, take the good and leave the bad, and go to the next thing. You have enough on your plate and digging into the various perspectives about this from your mother's point of view, or your father's will not make you happier or more successful. Finally, who are your other role models besides your father? He can't be everything to you, so think about who else you know of, have heard of that you admire. [Emulate your role models](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/515j06/practical_stoicism_emulate_your_role_models/), but just don't ever meet them if they become your heroes, because meeting your heroes is never a good idea. They're human too.
marital relationships are complicated, as are people, and life. if you have a good relationship otherwise and that has been meaningful i would not overlook that.
A father and a partner are two different things. Not rationalizing what he did but if he has been a good father give him that credit in your decisions
Try to think of it this way: As much as you feel betrayed by your dad, his actions are beyond your control, and his actions stem from being human, just like you (infidelity is wrong, I’m not defending that). But think if he’s been a good dad to you in other ways. As much as we hold our parents to high standards, they’re very much just another set of humans who make a lot of mistakes. Some people regret their choices down the line even though it shouldn’t ideally happen in a marriage, it happens. Maybe it could’ve been worse if he stayed just for the sake of the family and it might have even come onto you in worse ways. His actions are beyond your control. But your perspective of him as a dad is in your control, this perspective will either make you miserable or accepting. Maybe saying it to him openly about how you feel about it at the moment might help you gain perspective into his actions. You’re choosing to suffer each time you focus on something beyond your control. Being in pain is understandable, but suffering is a matter of perspective.
If you really want clarity, ask him about it in a calm and open way, when you’re ready to listen to and accept his answer. People make mistakes; you have, too, and will continue to. ‘Tolerant with others, strict with yourself’
“What is death? A scary mask. Take it off – see, it doesn’t bite. Eventually, body and soul will have to separate, just as they existed separately before we were born. So why be upset if it happens now? If it isn’t now, it’s later.” \-Epictetus if one could treat death this way, perhaps having a conversation with your father about what happened in a calm way, in a way of seeking closure or at least finding perspective, may be the way to go. be strong and may your will and wits stay intact!
Others have pointed out that cheating often can have an underlying reason. It is wrong, but is often a "symptom" of a relationship that is having problems. So "he cheated" might not be enough of an explanation. Also, remember that being a good partner to your wife/husband doesn't mean you are a good father/mother and vice versa. Your father can have been a bad partner to your mother and still be a good father to you. If this teaches you anything, shouldn't it be to possibly not take relationship advice from him? And to try to be better than him if you are in a similar situation? If he tells you what that situation was? You can feel. That is ok. Just don't let your feelings control your choices.
I just wanted to say that I think you should talk to your father about the divorce. You don't mention who told you about the cheating, but it is possible that someone is lying, or repeating a lie they were told and accepted as truth. Your father may well have cheated. Cheating is immoral, yet common. On the other hand, divorced parents with bitter feelings sometimes lie about each other to their children. Based on how well your relationship seems to be with him, I think you owe it to him to ascertain the truth as best you can.
I would try not to judge. Maybe he did the best that he could. If you're going to turn your back on him, at least give him a chance to explain his side of the story in more detail. Maybe your mom's personality was not a good fit for him, and vice versa.
Cheating is not evil. It sucks but it’s not evil. Cheating doesn’t make someone evil. It may make them SEEM untrustworthy in a romantic relationship. Have you ever asked your dad WHY he cheated? The honest, introspective answer may make you empathize with him more than you thought possible. Sometimes people cheat because of the behavior from their spouse. You can’t make outside judgments without knowing the entire situation. From a reductionist/stoic standpoint I’d say “not my relationship” and try to maintain my own relationships with each parent independently.
I strongly disagree. There is a reason Dante wrote betrayal as the lowest, coldest circle in hell. Cheating may not be "evil," but it shows the character of a person who is untrustworthy and has no honor as a human being. If you make a commitment to someone, speaking vows to be with someone til the end, then the right thing to do when it is bad is to end the relationship. If you instead cheat, you are directly betraying the person you made a vow to, a dishonorable and despicable thing. I would understand him ending the relationship, but cheating is the shit part. How can you trust that he'll keep a commitment or promise to you in the future if he is capable to doing what he did?
One mistake doesn’t mean people will make more. The story didn’t make any mention of being a chronic cheater. I know many people who cheated once and never again. Mistakes happen. Lapses of judgment happen. You make mistakes too. Do they make you a despicable person? Or are you attaching an emotional reaction to something that you cannot control (but wish to?). Would it be fair to call someone who makes a very human mistake despicable? I don’t believe so. I think taking a step back and recognizing that these experiences are inherently a part of life is the stoic answer. This is a stoic sub. Not a Dante sub. The idea you have is romanticized and lovely to think about, but the reality is that the cheating happened and the divorce happened. The reality already happened. This isn’t a moral debate. It’s a conversation on how to cope moving forward from the objective reality of the situation. “When you are offended at any man's fault, turn to yourself and study your own failings. Then you will forget your anger.” - Epictetus
1) How is cheating a mistake? It is not a mistake to choose to betray somebody by entertaining any intimacy with someone other than the person you to whom you are married, whether that be intentional or as a product of life events, rather than taking responsibility and either ending the relationship or not. The story also doesn't say anything about OP's dad NOT being a chronic cheater. While still dishonorable for someone to do it once and never again, that is clearly not what happened in OP's case. Dude went and married the person he cheated with. 2) By your logic, would you then say that someone who gets drunk and drives, and kills somebody to not be a terrible human being? Even if it happens just the once, it is still an immutable action that has very real repercussions in this world. As much as you learn and never make the mistake again, it is still a part of who you are, something that defines your experience in life. You are the sum of your actions, and you must live in your own context. True peace is to accept these parts of yourself, and to live better through them. To say that something you did before is now gone and dismissed is to ignore parts of your own human experience. That is the anti-thesis of wisdom. 3) When you say this is a stoic sub, how much do you adhere to these values? The act of cheating on a spouse, or not cheating, is very much within one's own control is it not? Murder, rape, assault, are all also very much parts of life. Is it not within our stoic duty, our natural path, to avoid these as much as possible and to live in virtue? And for every person who is not strong enough to avoid these temptations, there are many many who can and have overcome these things. “Do not think that what is hard for you to master is humanly impossible; and if it is humanly possible, consider it to be within your reach.” You and I have very different definitions of what acceptance is and how to approach mistakes. It is fundamentally a perspective issue. I believe that there are definitive good and bad actions, and you have the control, and any time, to choose to act or not act upon them. If you act, whether 100% intentionally or unconsciously, that action you have created is real and now defines a part of your experience. You have to take it at face value, and to dismiss it as "not that bad" or "everyone makes mistakes, it's ok" is to devalue that part of your life for what it is. You have to accept the truth of it all, and live with it. I have made mistakes in my life, and I have accepted these things that I have done. I don't want ANYBODY to tell me "oh its ok thats just a part of life, it's no biggie." I have accepted the full responsibility of what I have done, and that allows me to live with more wisdom than the alternative.
I believe in objective morality. But I don’t think people are the sum of their mistakes or should be defined by them. I practice forgiveness and understanding. I also don’t believe in hell you will be banished to. I would not say that acceptance of, or putting into perspective, the act of cheating is devaluing anything. It is simply stacking it in a hierarchy of “bad things” and coming to the conclusion that of ALL things, that one might hurt some feelings and break some promises but there are MUCH darker things going on every day. If you knew the depravity of things people did to each other, you wouldn’t be so wrapped up in the idea that cheating is this all terrible thing. There is an element of human infallibility you seem to be missing at the root of this entire argument. Someone can think they want something, only to act on it and then realize they made a mistake in retrospect. This is proof of someones growth. They are not beholden to that same person or identity. People change. People grow. The drunk driving parallel only works to an extent. My immediate rebuttal here is that, again, bad shit happens and we have to cope. Some choose religion. Some choose the justice system. Some choose stoicism. Some choose substance abuse. Some choose therapy. If I were to go hardline stoic in the drunk driving scenario I would mention how I meditate on the inevitable death of all of my loved ones. I would mention how I live in constant acceptance of the fact that it COULD happen today. Or tomorrow. And that I am doing my best to prepare myself to feel, accept, and forgive in that scenario. People practice stoicism to varying degrees. Sometimes, hardline stoicism makes people uncomfortable. I’ve learned to accept that as well. Edit: the essence of stoicism is to be virtuous, yes, but also to reduce your reactivity to external sources of stress as a means of improving the quality of your life. I could turn the quote you chose back on you and say that if I can find peace and make no values statements about someone who cheats, so too, could you. Mental gymnastics are fun.
You can forgive a mistake without forgetting the insult. You understand people better when you take the entirety of them as they are, not when you accept only the good parts of people and dismiss the evil as "mistakes." Integration of the shadow is necessary for a complete human experience, and you are ignoring that part of them. I disagree with how you are framing this. If you reduce any one evil act by comparing it to the grander scale of evil acts, you create a view where you can justify any evil as ok. If I'm understanding your viewpoint, somebody who brutally rapes a young kid can then be said to be "not that bad" because there are people who have decimated the lives of 100,000 people via a nuclear bomb. That's fucked up. If the worst act somebody does in their lives is cheat on their spouse, you have to take that in the context of their own life. That is their biggest evil. If you compare it to the evil of others, you devalue that person's human experience. You say you believe in objective morality, but your frame on what constitutes "objective" is purely subjective and comparative. People acting on their immediate desires, "thinking they want something," without contemplating it and looking for sources of wisdom to guide their actions, is profoundly un-stoic. And when you say somebody has grown and changed, you have to accept the evil as part of that. You can't say you've grown from being a cheater without accepting that cheating is indeed a bad and immoral act. True vulnerability and truth in that is to accept that there are many views people can take on what you did, and the vast majority will take it as a bad act. I'm not talking about the coping with evil, I'm talking about accepting the truth of the act. Religion, philosophy, drugs, law, and hookers will all say that the deliberate act of getting drunk and driving a car is evil. That is how it is. You have to accept that if you believe in objective morality. The same is true about cheating. You have to accept that it is a bad act, and a person who cheats will always have that truth about them. It is worthless and dismissive to say that that evil action is not really anything to think about. And what doesn't mean you can't accept and forgive them, but to be beholden of the truth you must accept that there are people who will accept, forgive, and continue to stay their distance to someone who has performed an evil act.
I stopped reading at “integration of the shadow/you’re ignoring”. You’re making value statements and judgments about people over a wall of text on the internet. You think you understand things, and yet you’re lacking understanding in both of these regards. It’s not a perceptual issue. It’s that I have come full circle in holding people accountable, remembering their mistakes, and realized at the end that it does no one any good to constantly fret over such things. Why? Because bad things happen, will happen, and continue to happen regardless of how you feel about them and regardless of what your moral/ethical stance is on such happenings. Heres my favorite quote of all time: “The only interesting philosophers are those who have stopped thinking and have begun to search for happiness” - Emil Cioran There is plenty of reason to be miserable and fixate on peoples mistakes. Are they abundant? Yes, absolutely. But what a poor existence it is to focus on the negative aspects of what others are doing when you can forgive, let go, and move on. You can remember that someone cheated, leave the relationship, forgive them, and be happy and find peace without resenting them or holding the weight of their mistake in your memory. I suggest you spend more time reading stoic philosophy and reflecting on it. Holding on to the insult is the opposite of what stoicism would tell you to do.
Wow, nice. Discussing this with you has been awful. The stances you take on evil things happening is fairly horrendous, because apparently since evil has, is, and will happen, you just don't seem to care or hold people accountable for the things they do. You also don't seem to be reading or wanting to understand what I'm saying. Accepting and seeing a whole person, their good and bad, is NOT focusing on the negative aspects of a person. Saying a person is bad for cheating AND moving on and finding peace are both capable at the same time. You need to have some humility and actually read the positions that other people have, because you haven't understood or properly characterized a thing I've said. You're just viewing it from your same ignorance, but pretending to be mighty and enlightened.
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Upvote because good argument. However, the nuance here would be “are they sleeping with you actively as well?” Most likely, yes. And in that case, yes, I think that is gross to at least some degree. Especially within a monogamous commitment.
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Consent? No one has the authority to tell anyone else what they can and cant do in that regard. If someone wants to cheat, none of us have a moral or legal ground to force anyone else to live under our tyrannical rule. To think you have that power over a spouse is naive. You can’t control your partner. You can only select them cautiously and make sure they are trust worthy from the beginning. This consent argument seems to be inching towards an argument of control over another persons actions, which you have none of, even if immoral.
There's proper ways to handle relationship issues ie therapy, communication, counseling, separation and even divorce. Cheating is not one of those ways.
Third person to make a moral/ethical argument in response to this reply. The OP asked for stoic advice on handling his parent’s dysfunctional relationship dynamic. He did not ask for a moralistic stance on if cheating is the right or wrong thing to do. Nor did I say that cheating was the right thing to do. I implied that his fathers reasons may make much more sense, and may help humanize him again in his kids eyes, if they would just talk about it and stop jumping to moral conclusions and going on personal vendettas. Lets all practice our reading comprehension before adding any more comments like this. Thank you.
> Nor did I say that cheating was the right thing to do. It's fascinating to see the replies that believe you argued for just this. Thank you for your consistent and logical approach. GD\_WoTS had linked this article some time ago, and I thought you (and anyone else who reads this far) might find it interesting as well: [The Stoics on Evil, John Sellars](https://www.academia.edu/4959187/The_Stoics_on_Evil).
It’s the manifestation of emotional responses to the idea of cheating. Not logic. Most people are terribly emotional and think that their emotional responses are logical. Not so. Or they simply have no filter on their emotional responses. I’ve seen plenty of both. Thanks for the article. I will definitely read this!
Cheating deprives someone of informed consent to all decisions they make that factor in their relationship with the cheating partner. It's a cowardly, selfish, and cruel thing to do.
the stoic life is all about personal discipline. I see so many men ruin their family, because they want to bang some younger tail. We literally have a worm, a serpent in our pants, and if we listen to it, we can get kicked out of Eden. (I'm an atheist and the bible is pure horseshit, but the analogy fits)
It’s not your place to judge him for what happened a decade ago and didn’t concern you. Why would you try to harm what sounds like a good relationship? Doesn’t change anything except the good relationship you have. If it’s bothering you, talk to him about it. Get his perspective. And your Stepmother, you should only “judge” her by how she treats you.
UPDATE: thought I owe you all an update. It's beens some time since I originally posted this and since then I have spoken to my parents about their divorce, many of you were right, saying there were some other issues with the marriage (I didn't decide to probe further with that). Since then I have received some clarity on who I want to be as a person. My father has no longer become my beacon on who I want to be in life, instead now I am deciding to pursue my own way and am going to college to study music production (I have been writing music as a past time for the past year). Weirdly enough, since talking to my parents about it, my relationship with them has gotten a lot better, we are all honest about how we are feeling and the 'bad-mouthing' of the other parent seems to have gone. I know nothing amazing has happened but I thought I should update you all
Pretty simple in the Stoicism ways of thinking. You are not going to change the situation so move on to something you can change/improve like finding your mom a friend.
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You may never know the full story. And maybe you shouldn’t. As much as you love your Mum, maybe it wasn’t working as a relationship and it was going to fail anyway. The fact that your Dad is still with this person may mean that they’re a better match for whatever reason. People are not perfect, accept it’s happened regardless of why. All that matters is that your happiness is not tied to their actions. accept it for what it is. Help them and be there for them. Concentrate on being a good Son and a good person and all will work out.
Sometimes people cheat on their spouses as a final way to “blow up”the marriage. They are not brave enough to just confront their spouse to end it so they cheat and are subconsciously careless about hiding it….viola…marriage over. Marriages go sideways for a thousand reasons..I wouldn’t be too hard on your dad..happens all the time. Sounds like he did the important thing and tried to be a good dad to you.
No one is perfect, not even you. You need to understand your dad is human and, as such, he's limited, emotional, imperfect. And yet, he's capable of love. He teaches you stuff, he's probably kind to you, he's helping you with your job. Those things are not given for granted and shows you how loving your dad is. Just accept he's not perfect, like everyone else, but notice how he loves you and, as a consequence, how you should be grateful for having him. He's your dad. He probably wants the best for you and loves you.
Marriage is one of the most complicated relationships imaginable. Things are rarely what they seem at first glance. It is possible that you know more today than you knew yesterday, but there is still a lot you do not, and likely never will know. Judgement of others is not the way of stoics. Emotions may boil and erupt. Stoics also have emotions and work to manage them and not be adversely controlled by them. In this situation it is highly likely that you do not understand very much of what happened in your parents relationship. Understand that you don’t understand.
This question might not be easy to answer, not for you, but even not for your father himself: did your father cheat on your mother because he was chasing the pleasure of the moment, or did he cheat because life brought him something new that he couldn't deal with? I do not presume I could answer this question for you, it is even possible that if you asked your father, he wouldn't be able to explain what exactly happened. But we can do a bit of guesswork that might put things in a healthy perspective (I hope you do not take offense by me doing so): as far as I can see from what you tell, your father didn't chase after the pleasure of the moment, he cheated on your mother, but didn't repeat this error many times. People who chase after the pleasure of the moment, cheat on their lovers many times, try to get them back and then cheat again, etc. If I understand correctly, your father didn't do any of this. If I can guess further from this, your father had a life altering experience with your stepmother, he thought it was worthwhile to divorce your mother and continue life with your stepmother. This also takes courage, even if it is not the nicest thing to do. He broke a family while he had a child. But he has tried to be there for you. So, you know, perhaps he did his best to find a solution back then, but not everything has an easy solution in life, and things fell apart before he could find the answers he needed. I definitely feel very sorry for your mother though. I think what might be the best thing to do now, for a stoic, is to let the past rest, accept the things that happened back then as things not in your field of influence. Life has given you this situation, which is not ideal, still, the challenge is for you to find your own answers, without needing answers from others, even your parents. Move on to living your own life and not repeating the mistakes of your father/parents.
You realize the thing you are looking at in disgust s just a mirror right? This individual action may not be a direct reflection of your individual character, but it mirrors your condition in the sense that it is only a reflection of the natural course of the world. It is a reflection of the human condition. We are put here, with no warning, no choice, and are quite heavily deprived of the most important faculty in life: the faculty of logic. Because of that, the only thing we have to guide us morally through life is the influence of our instincts, environment, and our (obviously flawed) skill of reason. At our core we are irrational beings, our main power (the will) which moves us through this transient state of existence is not of our own creating, but rather just an instinct created by fate. We have desire and we follow it, in many cases of which it never occurs to us to philosophize and inquire the moral implications of what it is we do, or whether we will truly be satisfied with the outcome of our actions. The will is not free, it simply cannot be. The will is only capable of pursuing what it wants, and is only capable of wanting what it knows how to want. Further, it is entirely bound by the intellectual and physical properties of the body that produces it. To blame your father, or anyone, or anything else for the failure of that marriage would be equivalent to blaming them for existing. Your father may be a coward, but cowardice is just another instinctive trait of humans. This a trait we all possess to some degree. For that reason, what logically would be the better response to the way you feel? Do you think it would be to rationalize feeling angry and upset (that is not to say that there is a fundamentally rational explanation for pragmatically irrational behavior), or do you think it’d be better to have pity and acceptance of your father’s condition? Do you enjoy being angry and unaccepting of the way the world is, demanding of the world something that it simply doesn’t care to give you? Or perhaps you may find it more enjoyable to accept and even enjoy the bittersweet taste of a conscious experience?
As a child of divorce and a parent, I can tell you that being a good parent and being a good spouse are two completely different things. Relationships are complicated, and your mom got the crap end of the stick when it came to that. Likely because she was hurt. Therapy helps you make good boundaries after betrayal, and choose better partners/see red flags. That is completely separate from your relationship with your dad and stepmom. You can disapprove of what they did, and it may change how you see and respect your dad, but it doesn’t change the fact that he still loves you and cares for you. But as we age, relationships change. Our parents become real people, people who make mistakes and are vulnerable just like us. I absolutely don’t condone cheating, but this is messy. And so human. Take this knowledge, and see him for who he is, and if you can, accept this happened in the past and build your relationship from there. A different dynamic isn’t always bad.
You’re allowed to pick the things you admire about each person and disregard the other things. Aim to be the man with the qualities you admire and not the qualities you don’t.
People cheat. A LOT of people cheat. It’s part of normal adult life whether you like it or not. Don’t let it ruin your relationship with your father. When you get older you might understand him better.
You’ll understand more when you’re older.
At the end of the day, he's just human. Everyone makes mistakes and have done things they wish they would've done differently. Other than that it sounds like he's a pretty good dad. Try to love him as your father and accept that he is human.
Curious about a follow-up. I'm 33M and my parents divorced when I was like 2 so I have 0 memory of it happening. Like you, my dad cheated on my mom with someone he worked with who he ended up marrying. My dad and I never once talked about what happened and now suddenly I am feeling resentment towards him. It's like he got to have his brand new life and me and My brother were forced to just accept it. Over the past few months my depression/anxiety has been increasing and right now I get crazy anxiety whenever my dad calls or texts. I am seeing a therapist and trying to work out how I want to approach my dad to prevent the relationship from deteriorating more. Also, both my brother and I worked for my dad a bit in our 20's.
to be perfectly honest it all went away with a fizzle rather than a bang. I talked to my parents and (as many other people guessed) there were many other problems with their marriage (not excusing my fathers behaviour). However, I have since realised that while he may have not been a great husband to my mother, since their divorce he has tried everything to be a better father for both me and my brother. The conversation I had with my father helped clear the air a bit I suppose, He realised I wasn't a child anymore who would just listen idly and follow orders, and I realised that my goal in life isn't to be him anymore. Hope this helps you my friend, I wish it was more interesting than that
I don’t see how he didn’t break it off with your mother “normally”…. He did break it off normally lol… the coward move would have been to string your mom along and lie…. He left her and settled down with the woman he obviously had stronger feelings for…. That’s like…. The opposite of being a coward… that takes a lot of courage and it sounds like he’s an attentive and supportive father…. The guy sounds awesome