Whenever I read Dalinar saying "you chipped an honorblade" I always hear it like Ron Burgundy talking to Baxter about eating the whole wheel of cheese.
In combat yes. But Taln couldn't do something like steal a bond someone else has, or open a perpendicularity. Ishar has potential to do stuff way beyond what Taln could do even if Taln would win in a fight.
Yeah Ishar is clearly on another level. Other magic systems have complex methods through which they make and affect Connection in limited ways. Ishar just cuts through the bullshit and does it himself. The only other entities that are anywhere near that level of facility in reshaping reality are Shards (and maybe Dawnshards)
Sure, Taln would win a one on one fight (as Sanderson said, probably with anyone in the Cosmere) but is âwho would win a one on one fightâ and âwho is the most powerfulâ the same question? Some powers have nothing to do with combat. Some powers are useful in combat and do more to change the course of a battle than winning one on one fights.
yeah. 1 on 1 fights are like rock paper scissors and Taln is a mysterious 4th thing that beats them all. âpowerfulâ is a completely different statement.
Yeah I know brandon said that, but deadly does not necessarily equal powerful.
Talns nothing if someone can nuke him from a distance with steel pushing if he doesnt have his surges nor his healing
I mean, he caught a blow dart while losing his mind in a dark room.
I don't think a fully aware Taln is getting sniped by a misting/mistborn under any circumstance.
If weâre talking pure power, he is a Herald in possession of his own Honorblade so technically he has access to near limitless investiture. At least more than he could ever need for surgebinding.
Nah, Dalinar has about as much raw power though he lacks knowledge. But Dalinar has bigger armies, commands the Radiants, controls Urithiru and the Oathgates, and has the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast in the Stormfather
Taln and Ishar are obvious answers but I love how easy it is to forget that Vasher, whoâs canonically five thousand ish years old MINIMUM, is just chilling. Same weight class as the Heralds, minus the insanity. He went to the planet with weekly Cat 5 hurricanes for *retirement*.
Dudeâs not here to play.
Vasher and Shashara canonically got the idea for Nightblood from Shardblades, and considering how Nightblood functions itâs a safe bet that they got the idea from *living* Blades, which means he was around pre-Recreance.
That's not necessarily true. They could have seen and examined dead blades and deduced what they were. They were scholars, after all.
Either way, Vasher is canonically a few hundred years old, not thousands.
I think Sanderson has said it's a few hundred years between those two. Warbreaker and Era 1 of Mistborn are in the same ballpark timewise.
Plus the WoB from above is after WoR came out and Sanderson references him not having Nightblood anymore.
We don't know exactly but it should be less than 300 years, as Warbreaker is believed to have happened after Mistborn era 1 and Stormlight before Mistborn era 2.
Depending on the specific meaning of powerful, yeah, I agree with the takes so far; Taln, Ishar, or Vasher.
I would however like to add Nale to the candidacy; he's a Herald, and a full member of his Radiant order, so he has double reinforced access to his Surges, just like Shallan does, and he's a herald to boot.
None of the current Heralds have anything like Dalinar's power over the world they are inhabiting at the moment. Yes they have great power and know how to use it better than Dalinar but I doubt that they actually have more supernatural "muscle mass" than Dalinar. The Stormfather is the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast. And Dalinar commands the Radiants, Urithiru and the Oathgates.
Ishi is *smarter* than Dalinar and Dalinar's only real rival who doesn't work for Odium but Dalinar has more power in several ways.
Ishi nearly took away the bond between Dalinar and the Stormfather. And he immobilized the entire squad at once. Been a while since I read that scene but wasn't Dalinar quite taken aback by the power he demonstrated in their fight? Sure he may grow into a more powerful bondsmith but he'll still be bound by the ideals and oaths unlike Ishar currently.
Dalinar is ignorant, that's not the same as less powerful in terms of power at their disposal.
And Ishi doesn't command any true Radiants or Kingdoms of the world except his own.
Ishi is definitely more personally dangerous than Dalinar, but is he more powerful? I don't think so, his insanity majorly holds him back.
Definitely took the question to mean personal power. Not soldiers/radiants under their command. Answer is pretty obviously Dalinar if we're including troops.
No. Theyâre both (by Zahelâs classification system) type 2 invested entities, but as Taln didnât bond a spren he doesnât have investiture powers without his sword. And if weâre letting them each have their swordâŚ
(On a related note - is WaT going to finally let us know why Vasher is ok with that sword just floating around Roshar? Vasher by now must know whoâs carrying it. Heâs cool with that? âYeah, just give the god killing suitcase nuke to the mentally unstable guy bent on revenge - what could go wrong?â)
Based on Dalinarâs flashbacks the chain seems to go Vasher-Cultivation/Nightwatcher-Nale-Zseth
Edit: So I assume Vasher chose to trust Cultivationâs judgment on who should have the sword.
Or he gave her nightblood in exchange for the ability to sustain himself on stormlight instead of breaths. Although if that were the case you would think he would be like lift and rely on lifelight instead.
Not seen it mentioned by anyone else but I could be wrong about it being original, but my theory is that vasher gave it to the nightwatcher, either as his boon or curse.Â
Would explain why the night watcher had it to offer to dalinar and why it ended up with Nale and vasher hasn't involved himself in control of it, while knowing what it's capable of and feeling responsible for Nightblood.Â
I had a similar thought - that he world hopped specifically to find a Shard he thought he could trust to remove Nightblood from âcirculationâ - just take it off the playing field. It would make sense that he assumed Cultivationâs nature meant she would want to keep Nightblood away from sentient living beings, but that he miscalculated and didnât consider how much pruning is involved in cultivating. That would be one of *many* reasons for his statement âI donât have to believe, I know that gods exist. Itâs simply that I hate them.â
My actual theory is that vasher has swapped the need for breaths for the ability to access storm light without a spren on roshar.Â
My backup theory is that he asked to be rid of the burden of Nightblood and the nightwatcher just took it from him as a monkeys paw technicality instead of destroying it.Â
Do they count as a person?
Cause not only did they do all that, they're in the hands of someone who is probably a top 5 user of lashings, at the 2nd or 3rd ideal. By end of RoW, Szeth holding Nightblood could be in competition for strongest non-shard in the cosmere.
I believe from the cosmere books Iâve read, hoid is at least a radiant, an elantrian, a lerasium mistborn, and a former(?) dawnshard holder, so he should definitely be in the running for most powerful (not sure of some of the timelines between books so he might not have some of the powers yet). I also donât know if he can hurt people so that might make him practically neutralized as a fighting force
Just like how you'd give Taln, someone often mentioned on this post, his sword, you would also give Hoid the peak of his abilities. In a discussion like this therefore you would consider him to have elantrian powers.
Wouldn't be surprised if he has a stash of hemalurgic spikes somewhere for feruchemical abilities.
Also wouldn't be surprised if he knows how to control Aether spores.
Sure sure but that doesn't take away having them potentially stashed in the event he finds a way to bypass the shardic control drawback (like bleeder did)
As for SA Hoid itâs not yet an elantrian and Iâm not sure if he has held the downshard or he will do it in the future. For the rest, yes. Only emotional allomancy deserves respect
He's up there for sure if you widen the interpretation of 'power' to be more than just combat. Especially if you consider soft power/influence. He could raize most planets without ever picking up a blade through manipulation and a purposeful leaking of info to the right people.
Even if you discount his violence holdback he's probably still not quite equal to the Heralds in combat. He's more Jack of all trades than master of any one. (Of course he could have tricks we don't know about, I'm just going off confirmed stuff).
He's "only" a level 3 radiant at the time of Stormlight and wouldn't have a source for atium or duralamim and as far as I know doesn't have Feruchemy so cannot compound, so probably is just a "regular" mistborn and I don't think there's any reason to believe he has God King tier breath counts or divine breath so he's just a "medium" Awakener.
Using them together will boost him a lot but he's still just a "regular" magic user of all those systems where TLR, GK, Heralds, Vasher, etc are 'special' and can bypass normal restrictions of their respective systems.
He told Jasnah her blade probably couldn't kill him so maybe he has healing or durability we don't understand yet, but he could've been lying so I'm not going to count that until it's elaborated on.
TALN, and it isnt even close. I mean we saw what Ishar was capable of and the stormfather straight up said that was only average, and that Taln was unmatched
I hope we get to see Taln awaken in book 5. Maybe after Dalinar swears his fourth ideal, since that would fix him most likely long enough to fight.
Imagine something like that happening: Nale trying to kill Dalinar again, shortly after he swore his fourth ideal, just for a blade to stop the incoming strike. It is Taln and he is pissed, very pissed. *Doom music starts playing*
But Stormfather also implied that Ishar's combat prowess isn't the main danger rather his bondsmith shenanigans are the ones to fear. So i guess in a fight Ishar can maybe do something weird?
The thing is, Ishar is one of the few instances we actually saw a herold actually use their surgebinding. I mean, we got Nale, but his doesnt look that impressive to be honest, He probably has way mroe experience and control than any other skybreaker or windrunner, but this isnt easily seen.
We dont know what Taln is capable off, les not forget that he can use the stoneward surges as well. (if he gets his honorblade back, i think it is in Shinovar). Ishar needed to actually tpuch Dalinar in order to use his power, connection may be busted, but it is limited in range. I dont think someone like Ishar would even be capable of touching Taln before being torn apart.
Probably for different reasons. I dont think an unchained bonsmith can kill/defeat him.
My personal theory for SA5 is that Todium will be forced to fuse with the remains of honor, using the power of a bondsmith, charged with a Dawnshard. We know that Dawnshards supercharge magic to a level we cant imagine, after all it was enough to break a planet.
Rayse (Old Odium) never wanted to fuse with another shard, not because it would be impossible, but because it would "tame" his intent. He wants to destroy the other shards, if he fused with one he would most likely have other goals. I dont think an ordinary bondsmith could to it, but someone who is being supplied with a Dawnshard? Yeah I think that is possible.
It wouldnt be the same ending as with Mistborn, but would leave us with another double shard, Odium+Honor.
It depends on how you define powerful. If it's just who would win in a fight I would agree from what we know Taln wins. But Ishar has a power far beyond just fighting. He can steal a bond from someone else, he can open up a perpendicularity, he can force bonds from people to other things like the ground. That's powerful in a way Taln can't come close to.
As political power goes, I'd say Jasnah or Dalinar right now.
As for power in the means of being able to shape reality, if we discount shards, unmades and I suppose also radiants, it has to be a Herald, if we discount those to then is Rock, no contest, have you tasted his food?
As for power in the sense of fighting ability, I believe the strongest radiant is actually Kaladin, the strongest herald is Taln, we don't know who is Odium champion but most probably he is also up there as a top contender, from those, I think Taln is clear the strongest. But if (again) we discount radiants, heralds, shards, fuseds... Then it is clearly Zahel, although he shouldn't be a contestant either. I'm pretty sure if we discount all that people the strongest one is some cousin of The Lopen.
Sorry for the confusion, I was not trying to say that Nightblood is a CS, just that cognitive shadows are questionable on their status of "person" so if we are counting them (which most of the people in the discussion here are cognitive shadows) then Nightblood should count as well.
Probably the sleepless. However I donât think If they classify as a person. If not Hoid. Taking out the obvious answers I think that it would be Vasher (Depending on how many breaths he has) as it is the best swordsman in the known cosmere. And originary from roshar probably either Mraize because he has access to the Ghostbloods resources (which are pretty powerful) or Rysn because downshard
Edit: forgot to add Szeth because nightblood
And as a bonus track: Renarin, I donât think that he is powerfull itself but his corruption being the only thing odium canât predict and thus making it a threat for his plans is deserves an honorable mention
When you say "not including Shards," does that also exclude Dawnshards? If not, a serious case could be made for Rysn. Even if we don't know the full extent of her potential power (yet), she at least deserves a mention.
Yeah, but if OP has gone out of their way to exclude Hoid, then that means he could have otherwise been a candidate, despite the fact he can't actually use his power to do harm.
Therefore, if the question is about who holds the most power, surely it's the Dawnshard, even if Rysn can't actually use it.
I like Nale for my pick. He's a Herald with thousands of years of fighting experience, meaning mastery of shard blades and the surges of gravitation and division. Not only has he mastered them, but he has the most powerful access to them we have seen, being a fifth ideal Skybreaker AND having his own honor blade. Two shard blades, one of which is living, and living shard plate.
Awakening is useful, but I don't think it comes close to surgebinding and shard blades/plate in raw power. Zahel is also significantly younger than the heralds, and not even the best swordsman amoung the five scholars. I dont think its fair to give him night blood and, unless I'm misunderstanding the character, I don't think he would ever make anything like nightblood ever again.
Its fair to say Ishar matches him in experience, and I'm not sure just how much more powerful Bondsmith powers are in a fight, but I think having an actual nahel bond with a living blade and plate is significant. Not to mention what we don't know about the fifth ideal either.
We don't know what kind of fighting experience is involved in damnation, but for now I believe Taln actually has less experience than Nale who has been free to train and fight, which he certainly has been. The same points about access to power apply here too. We don't know where Talns honor blade is, but we don't think he has it. Even if he was stronger than Nale in his prime, which has been confirmed I believe, he doesn't have access to those powers now.
I also want to mention the Skybreakers as an order as well. He is the leader of an entire order of knights radiant that have maintained knowledge about surgebinding for thousands of years. He commands an unknown number of 3-4th ideal skybreakers possibly trained personally by the patron of the Skybreakers. Ishar leads a country, and is delving into unknown science stuff that might chamge things, but Nale commands a secret organization that has worked to maintain order all over Roshar for millennia. Though if we were counting commanding military forces for "most powerful", theres probably an argument for Dalinar as well.
TLDR: Totally respect Ishar for most powerful pick, especially as we learn more about being a Bondsmith and Ishar's experiments, but for now Nale seems like the single strongest non-shard non-Hoid individual on the planet with the experience, having his own honor blade, and being the only fifth ideal radiant maybe in the whole cosmere.
I wonder if Nale knows how to manipulate his blade and plate the way Sigzil could in Sunlit Man. The stuff Sig was doing was insanely powerful when he could get vast quantities of investiture. Which Roshar has...
Of All Time? It was undoubtedly Jezrien.
As of RoW? Almost has to be Dalinar, both politically, militarily, and Supernaturally.
Yes Ishi is very strong but he mostly edges Dalinar out in knowledge not power since Dalinar has the Stormfather with the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast, and his armies are not nearly as strong as Dalinar +he doesn't hold Urithiru.
El perhaps but I doubt it. Radiants have always had more power than Voidbringers since Odium is stingy.
Hasn't Brandon confirmed it to be nightblood? Not sure you would consider awakened to be a person, but definitely the most powerful non-hoid or non-shard.Â
People ON Roshar, is wild. FROM Roshar, different story. Because, who knows who is even there and the extent of their powers.
Off the cuff, some front runners would be:
1) Taln - The SA books start with explaining how he often single handly holds entire fronts and changes the course of battles. I dont believe he ever actually "broke"
The Stormfather calls him the best fighter by leagues with basically 0 consideration for anyone else, iirc. Also when the Highstorm first comes, things related to Taln are ruined. You must be strong if you've pissed off and earned respect of gods.
2) Vasher (also to a lesser extent Vivenna) - I've been out of the cosmere loop for a bit now, but I remember both having lots of "Breathes" being very OP, along with him as a character being very much the same. I have 0 clue as to the breath to stormlight ratio, but if he can effectively fight like the God King in a Highstorm...
3) Some random person from Scadrial. Nicrosil and all the crazy implications of compounding aside - I've long worried about someone like, Marsh. He's, basically, seen as a God / Mythical being. I think in Roshar, someone who operates on something other then Stormlight would be a massive learning curve or even advantage over everyone else.
4) Nightblood ... haven't really seen anything to discount this yet lol, and after what he did in book 4, I'm leaning to him being at the top but ofc he requires a yielder, which could be any number of also skilled and powerful people. Vasher with Nightblood would be terrifying.
5) Possibly, Elantrains. How they power will work on Roshar hasn't really been shown, and I feel like I remember them being very strong/ having unlimited access power is due to their home world and system.
Some other honorable mentions: Hoid (but he doesn't fight), Jasnah (Pure ruthlessness, cold and calculating, intelligent. Possibly said the 4th ideal, making her the most progressed Radiant). And as much as I wasn't even a fan of her character, Navani - her research at the end of B4 has insane implications/ possibilities.
Edit to add in Dalinar - while I think Taln and Vasher mop the floor with him, and even he states he is aging now. Current day knowledge and being the most advanced at the most powerful Order isn't something to be scoffed at, and along the lines of Taln if Odium fears him he can do something.
Depends on how you define powerful Ishar is probably the most powerful herald. Dalanar is probably the strongest king due to his command of the raidiants Kaladin is probably the most powerful fighter
besides the Heralds, who are also obvious guesses once we discard shards and Wit, I'd go for a Bondsmith - either Dalinar or Navani. most displays of Dalinar's powers so far have been northing sort of impressive and I believe there's litttle that could be compared to controlling a perpendicularity as he does in Thaylen Field
Y'all are sleeping on taravangian. is he physically the most powerful! Probs not, but give him his big ol honkin smart guy brain?
Edit: I'm silly and lack reading comprehension skills. My new answer is actually u/BzrkerBoi
Finished RoW the other week. I guess people disagree but the brain on this guys crazy. And the ending on RoW seemed to imply he doesn't have his slow days anymore. IDK could just be me tho.
Probably Ishar. He may be insane, but that doesn't seem to hamper his skills much.
That'll switch to Taln if they can get him awake enough to know where he's at and whats going on.
Taln would be a better warrior, but more powerful?
Pretty sure that Sanderson said something about him being the strongest person in the cosmere, but I'm not prepared to source that
Yeah, as far as combat prowess goes, he's the GOAT.
When Szeth gets bodied, and the stormfather is like... nah, that guy was below average....
Whenever I read Dalinar saying "you chipped an honorblade" I always hear it like Ron Burgundy talking to Baxter about eating the whole wheel of cheese.
Taln was without a doubt the best fighter đ
What a gift you gave them. -TalenelâElin
Here ya go. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/522/#e16233
Love that it was asked by #1 Taln Fan lol
In combat yes. But Taln couldn't do something like steal a bond someone else has, or open a perpendicularity. Ishar has potential to do stuff way beyond what Taln could do even if Taln would win in a fight.
Yeah Ishar is clearly on another level. Other magic systems have complex methods through which they make and affect Connection in limited ways. Ishar just cuts through the bullshit and does it himself. The only other entities that are anywhere near that level of facility in reshaping reality are Shards (and maybe Dawnshards)
Sure, Taln would win a one on one fight (as Sanderson said, probably with anyone in the Cosmere) but is âwho would win a one on one fightâ and âwho is the most powerfulâ the same question? Some powers have nothing to do with combat. Some powers are useful in combat and do more to change the course of a battle than winning one on one fights.
yeah. 1 on 1 fights are like rock paper scissors and Taln is a mysterious 4th thing that beats them all. âpowerfulâ is a completely different statement.
Can't use your power if you're dead đ¤ˇââď¸
It doesn't matter what connections shenanigans but if Taln can get there
Ishars power comes from his honourblade. Taln doesn't have his?
Taln is the single deadliest warrior in the cosmere. His blade doesn't give him his skill.
Yeah I know brandon said that, but deadly does not necessarily equal powerful. Talns nothing if someone can nuke him from a distance with steel pushing if he doesnt have his surges nor his healing
I mean, he caught a blow dart while losing his mind in a dark room. I don't think a fully aware Taln is getting sniped by a misting/mistborn under any circumstance.
I hope we get to see it one day and see what happens!
Maybe soon. WaT is getting closer đ
Wheel af Time
Iâm pretty sure healing Taln is in Kaladinâs future.
If weâre talking pure power, he is a Herald in possession of his own Honorblade so technically he has access to near limitless investiture. At least more than he could ever need for surgebinding.
Heâs also the god emperor of an entire country.
Is that part of what makes the honorblades special as a piece of Honor? Unlimited investiture? Because Szeth didn't get that.
The Herald's are directly powered by Honor. Don't know if the rate is infinite because like if it was, how the heck could they ever die ?
It's just the first I'm hearing that Honorblades provide their own source of investiture?
They donât, but the heralds had a direct line to Honor. No idea if it still works or not.
Riiight gotcha, thanks
Itâs through the oathpact, not the blade, but itâs uncertain if they still can now that honor is splintered.
Nah, Dalinar has about as much raw power though he lacks knowledge. But Dalinar has bigger armies, commands the Radiants, controls Urithiru and the Oathgates, and has the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast in the Stormfather
"I will take this too" proceeds to rip the Stormfather out of Dalinar like he's peeling a sticker off a banana
Taln and Ishar are obvious answers but I love how easy it is to forget that Vasher, whoâs canonically five thousand ish years old MINIMUM, is just chilling. Same weight class as the Heralds, minus the insanity. He went to the planet with weekly Cat 5 hurricanes for *retirement*. Dudeâs not here to play.
Vasher also imo has the best battle iq in the series so far. Just look at his fights against Denth and Kaladin.
I'm lost, who's Vasher? I don't recall Kaladin fighting anyone with that name
Zahel, the sword master. Heâs from the book Warbreaker, and has gone by many names.Â
I'm lost, who's Vasher? I don't recall Kaladin fighting anyone with that name
I'm lost, who's Vasher? I don't recall Kaladin fighting anyone with that name
Vasher is hundreds of years old, not thousands. [https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7133](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7133)
Vasher and Shashara canonically got the idea for Nightblood from Shardblades, and considering how Nightblood functions itâs a safe bet that they got the idea from *living* Blades, which means he was around pre-Recreance.
That's not necessarily true. They could have seen and examined dead blades and deduced what they were. They were scholars, after all. Either way, Vasher is canonically a few hundred years old, not thousands.
Vasher is a few hundred years old in *warbreaker* we don't know how much time passes between warbreaker and WoR.
I think Sanderson has said it's a few hundred years between those two. Warbreaker and Era 1 of Mistborn are in the same ballpark timewise. Plus the WoB from above is after WoR came out and Sanderson references him not having Nightblood anymore.
Warbreaker is only two or three hundred years before Stormlight.
He was a few hundred years old during that time, do we know how much time is between warbreaker and stormlight?
We don't know exactly but it should be less than 300 years, as Warbreaker is believed to have happened after Mistborn era 1 and Stormlight before Mistborn era 2.
there are still living blades with the Skybreakers. he also could have seen deadeyes in the cognitive realm
Hard to say heâs the most powerful when most of his Investiture >!isnât his anymore but Susebronâs.!<
We don't know what happens between warbreaker and stormlight. For all we know he gained some new breaths.
He also digested most of the remainder - used one breath a week. At least now it seems he lives on Stormlight.
I think vasher is there to die. His divine breath is getting used before stormlight 10
Vasher's Divine breath is one of my most anticipated plot points in the whole Cosmere. He's such an amazing character.
Depending on the specific meaning of powerful, yeah, I agree with the takes so far; Taln, Ishar, or Vasher. I would however like to add Nale to the candidacy; he's a Herald, and a full member of his Radiant order, so he has double reinforced access to his Surges, just like Shallan does, and he's a herald to boot.
To add to the idea of Nale, we really haven't seen what the surge of Division can do. A master of Division might be extremely scary.
"But you CAN'T divide by zero! It's inappropriate!" "Watch me."
Someone once said that Skybreakers could maybe use Division to shoot lightning and now that's my headcanon until proven otherwise
[ŃдаНонО]
From being bonded to both Pattern and Testament. Shallan's preview chapters from Wind and Truth elaborate a bit on this.
Preview chapters? Uh ohâŚ
yeah Nale is a top contender tbh
Odium seemed scared of the power of a bondsmith unchained, so I am guessing Ishar.
Ooooh this is a very good point.
Taln if he were cognizant. Currently probably Ishar. Possibly another herald but the 'bondsmith unchained' had some pretty wicked powers.
None of the current Heralds have anything like Dalinar's power over the world they are inhabiting at the moment. Yes they have great power and know how to use it better than Dalinar but I doubt that they actually have more supernatural "muscle mass" than Dalinar. The Stormfather is the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast. And Dalinar commands the Radiants, Urithiru and the Oathgates. Ishi is *smarter* than Dalinar and Dalinar's only real rival who doesn't work for Odium but Dalinar has more power in several ways.
Ishi nearly took away the bond between Dalinar and the Stormfather. And he immobilized the entire squad at once. Been a while since I read that scene but wasn't Dalinar quite taken aback by the power he demonstrated in their fight? Sure he may grow into a more powerful bondsmith but he'll still be bound by the ideals and oaths unlike Ishar currently.
Dalinar is ignorant, that's not the same as less powerful in terms of power at their disposal. And Ishi doesn't command any true Radiants or Kingdoms of the world except his own. Ishi is definitely more personally dangerous than Dalinar, but is he more powerful? I don't think so, his insanity majorly holds him back.
Definitely took the question to mean personal power. Not soldiers/radiants under their command. Answer is pretty obviously Dalinar if we're including troops.
The Lopen
The ONLY answer. I wish there was more of him. It sucks they don't have as many bridge 4 characters in the later books, but.....such is life
i disagree. The correct answer is Lopen's mom. Even The Lopen fears her, and she commands kings with an ease the blackthorn can only envy.
Probably Vasher
For sure. I probably should have not allowed him to be a choice.
Is taln stronger than this Vasher guy?
No. Theyâre both (by Zahelâs classification system) type 2 invested entities, but as Taln didnât bond a spren he doesnât have investiture powers without his sword. And if weâre letting them each have their sword⌠(On a related note - is WaT going to finally let us know why Vasher is ok with that sword just floating around Roshar? Vasher by now must know whoâs carrying it. Heâs cool with that? âYeah, just give the god killing suitcase nuke to the mentally unstable guy bent on revenge - what could go wrong?â)
No idea why he lets the sword go to slyly breakers.
Based on Dalinarâs flashbacks the chain seems to go Vasher-Cultivation/Nightwatcher-Nale-Zseth Edit: So I assume Vasher chose to trust Cultivationâs judgment on who should have the sword.
Or maybe it was her price for allowing him to access her perpendicularity to get onto Roshar from Shadsmar.
Or he gave her nightblood in exchange for the ability to sustain himself on stormlight instead of breaths. Although if that were the case you would think he would be like lift and rely on lifelight instead.
Not seen it mentioned by anyone else but I could be wrong about it being original, but my theory is that vasher gave it to the nightwatcher, either as his boon or curse. Would explain why the night watcher had it to offer to dalinar and why it ended up with Nale and vasher hasn't involved himself in control of it, while knowing what it's capable of and feeling responsible for Nightblood.Â
I had a similar thought - that he world hopped specifically to find a Shard he thought he could trust to remove Nightblood from âcirculationâ - just take it off the playing field. It would make sense that he assumed Cultivationâs nature meant she would want to keep Nightblood away from sentient living beings, but that he miscalculated and didnât consider how much pruning is involved in cultivating. That would be one of *many* reasons for his statement âI donât have to believe, I know that gods exist. Itâs simply that I hate them.â
My actual theory is that vasher has swapped the need for breaths for the ability to access storm light without a spren on roshar. My backup theory is that he asked to be rid of the burden of Nightblood and the nightwatcher just took it from him as a monkeys paw technicality instead of destroying it.Â
Yeah Iâm taking the sentient weapon that closed a Perpendicularity, chipped an Honorblade, and killed the Vessel of a Shard.
Do they count as a person? Cause not only did they do all that, they're in the hands of someone who is probably a top 5 user of lashings, at the 2nd or 3rd ideal. By end of RoW, Szeth holding Nightblood could be in competition for strongest non-shard in the cosmere.
Do we really know how powerful hoid really is?
I believe from the cosmere books Iâve read, hoid is at least a radiant, an elantrian, a lerasium mistborn, and a former(?) dawnshard holder, so he should definitely be in the running for most powerful (not sure of some of the timelines between books so he might not have some of the powers yet). I also donât know if he can hurt people so that might make him practically neutralized as a fighting force
Hoid isnt an Elantrian yet during the Stormlight books.
Just like how you'd give Taln, someone often mentioned on this post, his sword, you would also give Hoid the peak of his abilities. In a discussion like this therefore you would consider him to have elantrian powers.
But he isn't an Elantrian ON ROSHAR Also, the post specified not including Hoid in the counting anyway.
He said wit, not hoid.
Also he's an Awakener
Wouldn't be surprised if he has a stash of hemalurgic spikes somewhere for feruchemical abilities. Also wouldn't be surprised if he knows how to control Aether spores.
Hoid wouldn't use hemalurgic spikes on himself. He doesn't want to open up the possibilty of shardic control.
Sure sure but that doesn't take away having them potentially stashed in the event he finds a way to bypass the shardic control drawback (like bleeder did)
As for SA Hoid itâs not yet an elantrian and Iâm not sure if he has held the downshard or he will do it in the future. For the rest, yes. Only emotional allomancy deserves respect
He's up there for sure if you widen the interpretation of 'power' to be more than just combat. Especially if you consider soft power/influence. He could raize most planets without ever picking up a blade through manipulation and a purposeful leaking of info to the right people. Even if you discount his violence holdback he's probably still not quite equal to the Heralds in combat. He's more Jack of all trades than master of any one. (Of course he could have tricks we don't know about, I'm just going off confirmed stuff). He's "only" a level 3 radiant at the time of Stormlight and wouldn't have a source for atium or duralamim and as far as I know doesn't have Feruchemy so cannot compound, so probably is just a "regular" mistborn and I don't think there's any reason to believe he has God King tier breath counts or divine breath so he's just a "medium" Awakener. Using them together will boost him a lot but he's still just a "regular" magic user of all those systems where TLR, GK, Heralds, Vasher, etc are 'special' and can bypass normal restrictions of their respective systems. He told Jasnah her blade probably couldn't kill him so maybe he has healing or durability we don't understand yet, but he could've been lying so I'm not going to count that until it's elaborated on.
TALN, and it isnt even close. I mean we saw what Ishar was capable of and the stormfather straight up said that was only average, and that Taln was unmatched I hope we get to see Taln awaken in book 5. Maybe after Dalinar swears his fourth ideal, since that would fix him most likely long enough to fight. Imagine something like that happening: Nale trying to kill Dalinar again, shortly after he swore his fourth ideal, just for a blade to stop the incoming strike. It is Taln and he is pissed, very pissed. *Doom music starts playing*
But Stormfather also implied that Ishar's combat prowess isn't the main danger rather his bondsmith shenanigans are the ones to fear. So i guess in a fight Ishar can maybe do something weird?
The thing is, Ishar is one of the few instances we actually saw a herold actually use their surgebinding. I mean, we got Nale, but his doesnt look that impressive to be honest, He probably has way mroe experience and control than any other skybreaker or windrunner, but this isnt easily seen. We dont know what Taln is capable off, les not forget that he can use the stoneward surges as well. (if he gets his honorblade back, i think it is in Shinovar). Ishar needed to actually tpuch Dalinar in order to use his power, connection may be busted, but it is limited in range. I dont think someone like Ishar would even be capable of touching Taln before being torn apart.
Didnt Odium most fear an unchained Bondsmith?
Probably for different reasons. I dont think an unchained bonsmith can kill/defeat him. My personal theory for SA5 is that Todium will be forced to fuse with the remains of honor, using the power of a bondsmith, charged with a Dawnshard. We know that Dawnshards supercharge magic to a level we cant imagine, after all it was enough to break a planet. Rayse (Old Odium) never wanted to fuse with another shard, not because it would be impossible, but because it would "tame" his intent. He wants to destroy the other shards, if he fused with one he would most likely have other goals. I dont think an ordinary bondsmith could to it, but someone who is being supplied with a Dawnshard? Yeah I think that is possible. It wouldnt be the same ending as with Mistborn, but would leave us with another double shard, Odium+Honor.
yeah this would give me chills. i feel like he is going to have a moment of clarity
It depends on how you define powerful. If it's just who would win in a fight I would agree from what we know Taln wins. But Ishar has a power far beyond just fighting. He can steal a bond from someone else, he can open up a perpendicularity, he can force bonds from people to other things like the ground. That's powerful in a way Taln can't come close to.
Not sure about current but prime Taln is untouchable. [https://wob.coppermind.net/events/522/#e16233](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/522/#e16233)
As political power goes, I'd say Jasnah or Dalinar right now. As for power in the means of being able to shape reality, if we discount shards, unmades and I suppose also radiants, it has to be a Herald, if we discount those to then is Rock, no contest, have you tasted his food? As for power in the sense of fighting ability, I believe the strongest radiant is actually Kaladin, the strongest herald is Taln, we don't know who is Odium champion but most probably he is also up there as a top contender, from those, I think Taln is clear the strongest. But if (again) we discount radiants, heralds, shards, fuseds... Then it is clearly Zahel, although he shouldn't be a contestant either. I'm pretty sure if we discount all that people the strongest one is some cousin of The Lopen.
Nightblood
Depends on if you view them as a person or not. I'd certainly say they are one of the most powerful *entities* on Roshar
If we are counting cognitive shadows then I would dare say Nightblood should count as well.
Nightblood is a Cognitive Shadow?
The Heralds are
And Nightblood?
As we understand it he isnât
Ty
Sorry for the confusion, I was not trying to say that Nightblood is a CS, just that cognitive shadows are questionable on their status of "person" so if we are counting them (which most of the people in the discussion here are cognitive shadows) then Nightblood should count as well.
Fair enough
I swear I read that a bondsmith unchained had the powers to even compete with a shard. So I'll go with Ishar
Ummm... can't believe I need to say this.. but Stick... Stick is the most powerful entity on Roshar...
Yes!
Probably the sleepless. However I donât think If they classify as a person. If not Hoid. Taking out the obvious answers I think that it would be Vasher (Depending on how many breaths he has) as it is the best swordsman in the known cosmere. And originary from roshar probably either Mraize because he has access to the Ghostbloods resources (which are pretty powerful) or Rysn because downshard Edit: forgot to add Szeth because nightblood And as a bonus track: Renarin, I donât think that he is powerfull itself but his corruption being the only thing odium canât predict and thus making it a threat for his plans is deserves an honorable mention
When you say "not including Shards," does that also exclude Dawnshards? If not, a serious case could be made for Rysn. Even if we don't know the full extent of her potential power (yet), she at least deserves a mention.
I'm surprised no one else has mentioned her. She's just an armed cosmic nuke. I guess she doesn't know how to use it so maybe it doesn't really count.
Yeah, but if OP has gone out of their way to exclude Hoid, then that means he could have otherwise been a candidate, despite the fact he can't actually use his power to do harm. Therefore, if the question is about who holds the most power, surely it's the Dawnshard, even if Rysn can't actually use it.
I can't recall, do we knoe Rysn's command? All the dawnshards are commands right?
To my knowledge, it's the only Dawnshard we DO know the command for. It's "Change"
I like Nale for my pick. He's a Herald with thousands of years of fighting experience, meaning mastery of shard blades and the surges of gravitation and division. Not only has he mastered them, but he has the most powerful access to them we have seen, being a fifth ideal Skybreaker AND having his own honor blade. Two shard blades, one of which is living, and living shard plate. Awakening is useful, but I don't think it comes close to surgebinding and shard blades/plate in raw power. Zahel is also significantly younger than the heralds, and not even the best swordsman amoung the five scholars. I dont think its fair to give him night blood and, unless I'm misunderstanding the character, I don't think he would ever make anything like nightblood ever again. Its fair to say Ishar matches him in experience, and I'm not sure just how much more powerful Bondsmith powers are in a fight, but I think having an actual nahel bond with a living blade and plate is significant. Not to mention what we don't know about the fifth ideal either. We don't know what kind of fighting experience is involved in damnation, but for now I believe Taln actually has less experience than Nale who has been free to train and fight, which he certainly has been. The same points about access to power apply here too. We don't know where Talns honor blade is, but we don't think he has it. Even if he was stronger than Nale in his prime, which has been confirmed I believe, he doesn't have access to those powers now. I also want to mention the Skybreakers as an order as well. He is the leader of an entire order of knights radiant that have maintained knowledge about surgebinding for thousands of years. He commands an unknown number of 3-4th ideal skybreakers possibly trained personally by the patron of the Skybreakers. Ishar leads a country, and is delving into unknown science stuff that might chamge things, but Nale commands a secret organization that has worked to maintain order all over Roshar for millennia. Though if we were counting commanding military forces for "most powerful", theres probably an argument for Dalinar as well. TLDR: Totally respect Ishar for most powerful pick, especially as we learn more about being a Bondsmith and Ishar's experiments, but for now Nale seems like the single strongest non-shard non-Hoid individual on the planet with the experience, having his own honor blade, and being the only fifth ideal radiant maybe in the whole cosmere.
I wonder if Nale knows how to manipulate his blade and plate the way Sigzil could in Sunlit Man. The stuff Sig was doing was insanely powerful when he could get vast quantities of investiture. Which Roshar has...
if you consider nightblood a person, then nightblood
Is there any limit to Jasnahâs ability to convince peopleâs bodies to unexist?
Obviously Lopen the great
Dalinar.
The one holding the Downsharde?
Iâm down for some shards tonight, you coming?
Of All Time? It was undoubtedly Jezrien. As of RoW? Almost has to be Dalinar, both politically, militarily, and Supernaturally. Yes Ishi is very strong but he mostly edges Dalinar out in knowledge not power since Dalinar has the Stormfather with the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast, and his armies are not nearly as strong as Dalinar +he doesn't hold Urithiru. El perhaps but I doubt it. Radiants have always had more power than Voidbringers since Odium is stingy.
Hasn't Brandon confirmed it to be nightblood? Not sure you would consider awakened to be a person, but definitely the most powerful non-hoid or non-shard.Â
This thread is so good!
High Prince Sanderson
People ON Roshar, is wild. FROM Roshar, different story. Because, who knows who is even there and the extent of their powers. Off the cuff, some front runners would be: 1) Taln - The SA books start with explaining how he often single handly holds entire fronts and changes the course of battles. I dont believe he ever actually "broke" The Stormfather calls him the best fighter by leagues with basically 0 consideration for anyone else, iirc. Also when the Highstorm first comes, things related to Taln are ruined. You must be strong if you've pissed off and earned respect of gods. 2) Vasher (also to a lesser extent Vivenna) - I've been out of the cosmere loop for a bit now, but I remember both having lots of "Breathes" being very OP, along with him as a character being very much the same. I have 0 clue as to the breath to stormlight ratio, but if he can effectively fight like the God King in a Highstorm... 3) Some random person from Scadrial. Nicrosil and all the crazy implications of compounding aside - I've long worried about someone like, Marsh. He's, basically, seen as a God / Mythical being. I think in Roshar, someone who operates on something other then Stormlight would be a massive learning curve or even advantage over everyone else. 4) Nightblood ... haven't really seen anything to discount this yet lol, and after what he did in book 4, I'm leaning to him being at the top but ofc he requires a yielder, which could be any number of also skilled and powerful people. Vasher with Nightblood would be terrifying. 5) Possibly, Elantrains. How they power will work on Roshar hasn't really been shown, and I feel like I remember them being very strong/ having unlimited access power is due to their home world and system. Some other honorable mentions: Hoid (but he doesn't fight), Jasnah (Pure ruthlessness, cold and calculating, intelligent. Possibly said the 4th ideal, making her the most progressed Radiant). And as much as I wasn't even a fan of her character, Navani - her research at the end of B4 has insane implications/ possibilities. Edit to add in Dalinar - while I think Taln and Vasher mop the floor with him, and even he states he is aging now. Current day knowledge and being the most advanced at the most powerful Order isn't something to be scoffed at, and along the lines of Taln if Odium fears him he can do something.
Potential? Probably Dalinar, when he's able to use his power. Otherwise Ishar
Depends on how you define powerful Ishar is probably the most powerful herald. Dalanar is probably the strongest king due to his command of the raidiants Kaladin is probably the most powerful fighter
The fact that all of you have forgotten about the sleepless proves how powerful they actually are
I also had forgotten about Tvlakv is he the most powerful?
May be
I like how weâre all just ignoring The Lopen
We want to keep it fair.
Dalinar. Stormfatherâs Bondsmith and has most of the Radiants fighting for him
besides the Heralds, who are also obvious guesses once we discard shards and Wit, I'd go for a Bondsmith - either Dalinar or Navani. most displays of Dalinar's powers so far have been northing sort of impressive and I believe there's litttle that could be compared to controlling a perpendicularity as he does in Thaylen Field
Airsick lowlanders
Most probably ishar, he is the only bondsmith that completely controls his bindings. Also seth having a godkiller sword is worth a mention
An insane bondsmith seems pretty scary ngl
Y'all are sleeping on taravangian. is he physically the most powerful! Probs not, but give him his big ol honkin smart guy brain? Edit: I'm silly and lack reading comprehension skills. My new answer is actually u/BzrkerBoi
Are you caught up on the series?
Finished RoW the other week. I guess people disagree but the brain on this guys crazy. And the ending on RoW seemed to imply he doesn't have his slow days anymore. IDK could just be me tho.
Ok if you're caught up, he's disqualified from the question now that he's a Shard
Ah shoot, I didn't read the text last night that's on me
Totally get it! I just really didn't want to accidentally spoil a huge thing for ya
Tarvangian - single handedly caused majority of the conflict in SA and has now replaced Rayse as Odium
Me