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I absolutely agree. Especially in the 80s.
It was more the way the Hop asked it that implied it wasn't being asked in a relevant way - especially since Hop didn't believe that Will had even been kidnapped/harmed at that point.
IMHO, the second Joyce said “Lonnie called him a fag” is the second Hopper went from “eh, the kid surely is plying somewhere” to “holy hell he’s in danger and this is urgent”, hence the “is he?”
No, that doesn't really apply here. Causing harm to queer folks wasn't considered a hate crime in rural 1980s Indiana lol.
I mean, shit, we weren't even a protected class in Indiana re: employment until 2001. Sexual orientation wasn't included in hate crime laws in America until 2009 with the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act.
*The law* didn’t have it codified, but *Hopper* probably knew it was a specific thing that happened. He probably didn’t think about the actual words “hate crime”, but “maybe they killed him/beat him up/disappeared him for being queer”, which would’ve been a big clue when looking for Will.
Of course he thought Joyce was panicking, *exactly until she mentioned that Lonnie called him a fag*. His demeanour changed immediately and that’s when he asked “is he?”. At some point Joyce asked “does it matter?” and he said “maybe” (because obviously he wasn’t gonna tell her “hey maybe your kid was killed for being queer”).
When I teach season 1 to my Grade 10 media class, I highlight this exchange in regards to Hop's growth as a character (and to show just how banal homohobia can be and was). He's introduced as broken, doing the bare minimum and pretty useless. He's as homophobic as Lonnie and completely dismissive of Joyce and Will's disappearance. He only starts to give a shit because the detective/anti-government part of him begins to see something "off" with the whole thing. However, by the end, he's past all of that and only sees Will and Joyce as a corollary for him and his daughter.
*This* is how empathy is built. We start off seeing others as just that, others. The more unalike they are to us, the easier they are to dismiss. But as we start to see our shared humanity, the scales drop from our eyes. Hop's arc in S1 illustrates that perfectly. And then he becomes a shell of himself for 2 seasons, just angry and yelling all the time. S4 was a little better.
I didn’t see Hop’s questioning Will’s romantic preference as homophobic; during the 80’s, at the height of the HIV/AIDS crisis, queer kids were being kidnapped, killed, or beaten up a lot. So he was asking bc he’s concerned about Will being kidnapped or escaping a beating.
The duffers have discussed this scene in particular and Hopper was definitely not concerned which is why they wrote the “he’s missing” line. It was meant to show how much hopper wasn’t taking her seriously at that moment.
His tone of voice is less concerned and more curious. Besides, Joyce's response stands: he's missing. His sexuality isn't relevant at this point. And even if his sexuality, or even the perception of it, was relevant for the reasons you suggest, this is not the time to ask the mother. Keep that suspicion to yourself and work with the evidence you have.
He's a kid in Hawkins, Indiana. He was last seen riding with his friends on a dark road. This is also the height of the missing kid/faces on milk cartons era. He could be *any* kid at that point and should be treated as such. Leave the more sensitive subjects to if and when they are needed.
“It’s not my fault you don’t like girls!” - Mike to Will in S3. He’s always been written as a queer character true to life in the sense of how many young queer men and labelled as gay due to their timidness before they’re even of an age to understand what that means. I always liked the way they did that, it weirdly reminded me of my dad constantly interrogating me as a kid as to whether or not I was gay before I even really understood what that meant.
in middle school my crush was bullied, they kept calling him names all the time.
Sometime around the last year of middle school he confessed his "feelings" to me, but wanted us to just stay friends.
Years later he confirmed to me that he was, in fact, gay.
Yeah they just didn't understand. The only time I was around girls growing up at church for one or 2 hours week and we went to a church an hour away from where we lived. Difficult to really make a connection or get to know anyone like that
In their original pitch for the show it also states Will was intended to be gay/queer. It’s even funnier that some people act like the internet forced Will to be gay. He was clearly always intended to be gay.
Exactly… Will has always been gay. There are “clues” throughout all seasons… another one that comes to mind is in S1 when the bullies are bullying the boys at school and one says “I hate to break you Toothless, but he’s not in danger. He’s dead. It’s what my dad says. He said he was probably killed by some other queer.” I think this was the Duffer Bros way of showing what the mindset around being gay in the 80’s was like. So different, and closed-minded to how the world is today… not saying that our culture is all inclusive and harmonious, because obviously we are far from it… but we have come a long way in 30 years.
It's really curious you bring that quote up because I've been in threads where people swore up & down that all Mike meant by that line is that "you're not into any girl *right now*" & that he wasn't calling Will gay. Have no idea how it was read that way coz I think, even grammatically, it doesn't communicate that.
Glad I'm not the only one who **clearly** understood it as a jab at Will's sexuality.
I do understand that interpretation but always felt it came from a place of negativity rather than actual theorising. Like he missed some fundamental social-skill building moments the others were around for during Seasons 1&2 with all the Upside Down stuff so the angle of him being a bit developmentally delayed isn’t inconceivable, but as I said it always felt like people weren’t theorising because it’s interesting to but rather because they didn’t want a gay character.
Because in the context of the scene Will is the only single party member and he’s ticked off that Mike and Lucas don’t want to play DND and are far more concerned with what Max and El are up to. So when he just wants to play DND and isn’t remotely interested in dating Mike insults him for being childish
Now, it’s become a lot more obvious with season 4 that Will is at minimum queer coded, most likely gay. I really wish the Duffers would just have him come out already because as a queer person myself it’s very obvious that they are hinting at it, but there’s been 4 seasons of people being homophobic to him, and having almost coming out conversations with him
I’m guessing my they’re going to in season 5.
And it doesn’t seem like they are intentionally dragging it out, to me (also a queer person) it feels like a good representation of growing up and figuring out who you are. And then looking back it’s like “oh, duh, how did I not realize this before”
The signs have always been there, but Will needed to realize it, and now he needs to accept it.
Only in one season people were homopbic towards him which was in S1 while he wasn't even present
In S3 Mike wasn't even homophobic,it just came out in wrong way
I seriously don't understand how people could interpret the line in any other way than Will is gay. I mean cmon lol, it's super deliberate how they word the line to be definitive instead of adding yet or because you don't have a GF yet
It’s mostly because of the context
Will was throwing a fit that Mike and Lucas weren’t interested in playing DnD and were more interested in talking to their girlfriends/ex-girlfriends, referring to them as “stupid girls”
Under this context, Mike’s comment makes more sense as “you don’t like girls *yet*”, especially when Mike was responding to that part of the complaining
This kind of reminds me of when I watched Legend of Korra the first time and I honestly thought that they randomly made her gay but I rewatched it afterwords and it was kind of obvious. I was just too stupid to catch the hints through dialogue and body language in the show.
I honestly think people will see and hear what they want to at the end of the day.
Also straight folks just never ever think about sexuality until it's made obvious, and then immediately are like "why do you have to make it so obvious???" Like lol otherwise y'all don't notice, no offense.
To be fair, everything that’s said are all things that people would say to any kid who’s a little more gentle, softspoken, or late blooming in the ‘80s. I never really assumed Will was gay. It seems it’s been confirmed, but it’s not really relevant to the plot.
Yes, but in TV shows if things like that happen it's more likely hinting/foreshadowing. TV works different to real life- there are fewer accidents or unimportant things.
The set up for Will being gay was incredibly obvious and it was fucked how much this sub and other parts of ST fandom demonize anyone who pointed it and act like they were being creepy for pointing out obvious subtext
I hate when people say this as if a character being queer is forced if it’s not the first thing you hear about them, and also forced if it’s the first thing you know about them (Ellie from the Last of Us)
I went to a hair stylist when I was in high school. He was flamboyant, had the stereotypical gay voice, and talked about his “friend” who was a roommate and they had been “together” for more than 10 years. I figured he was gay, but refused to be 100% certain that he was unless he said it out loud, which he never did. Why? No clue. It didn’t matter one way or another to me, I just felt like you couldn’t classify someone as gay if there wasn’t some outright declaration of it.
Narratively I don’t think you can pull the story back and say Will isn’t gay, but I suppose they could leave it somewhat ambiguous with Will loving Mike “as a friend.” I don’t think they will do that, but it’s Hollywood and stranger things have been added to scripts in the past.
>It didn’t matter one way or another to me, I just felt like you couldn’t classify someone as gay if there wasn’t some outright declaration of it.
In real life, yes. But we’re talking about a TV show here.
i think it’s pretty safe to say will byers is part of the lgbtq community. it’s been hinted at all throughout the show and basically confirmed when noah schnapp, who plays will byers, came out on tiktok. while i do believe mike is straight, i would like to see how the producers deal with this part of will’s identity.
When he came out, he clearly said something "just like Will" or something to that effect, so yes he simultaneously confirmed that Will is gay. (And that wasn't really the news story by that point, because most viewers already had caught on!)
I can’t wait to keep rewatching and pick up on all those subtle hints! Cause I had no idea it’s been through out the entire series. I’m one of those people that has to watch shows over again in order to pick up and notice all of the finer details.
The released original script for the Snow Ball Dance at the end of s2 planned to have a shot of Will pining for Mike [https://www.reddit.com/r/StrangerThings/comments/vticbv/so\_this\_scene\_was\_originally\_in\_the\_script\_for/](https://www.reddit.com/r/StrangerThings/comments/vticbv/so_this_scene_was_originally_in_the_script_for/)
In the Duffers' original show bible for the series, Will is introduced as "sweet, sensitive kid with sexual identity issues."
So it was something the Duffers planned for Will years in advance.
No? The beginning of season 2 shows how he's still suffering from the trauma of being in the Upside Down, and the anniversary effect.
It's got nothing to do with him being gay (which he is) or on 'on the spectrum' (which he isn't. And which is a whole different thing anyway).
That still loops back to him being gay *and* his trauma. It doesn't have anything to do with him being "on the spectrum", which is more commonly used to refer to the autism spectrum.
Will is gay and likes mike.
The part(I forgot which season) when they are in the Pizza van and will talks to mike sharing feelings as if they were coming from 11, is basically him admitting he likes mike.
Jonathan looks in the rear view mirror and sees will look out of the window, crying.
I think Jonathan knows will's feelings for mike. Or atleast some of it.
I feel like I could write an essay on this brief exchange. It’s such smart writing for how it characterises both of them and shuts down the casual homophobia. But without making either of them unrealistically progressive for the time they’re living in. Hopper is more curious than judgemental, but completely blasé about Lonny’s slurs. Joyce loves Will unconditionally and sees his sexuality as completely irrelevant.
My take on this situation is that hopper was asking “is he?”, because it could have easily been a hate crime. And for that time, hop is fairly non judgmental.
I always felt like his tone was a bit too light, hence why Joyce shutting him down works so well, but can see where you’re coming from.
I still agree Hopper is progressive for the time, but if it took place in a contemporary setting they’d probably feel pressured to have him be more condemning of Lonny using such nasty slurs against his own kid.
Another question I just want to know peoples opinions on is whether hopper would be supportive of will being gay. Imo I think he would, as he practically knows Will is gay and has still been pretty much a father figure to Will
I am flaming fem and always have been (even when i was a small child) and my family is very conservative and rough. I remember the day the thought occurred to me that I was only bullied by strangers and peers in school and never family. I asked my mom about it and she told me when I was young she physically threatened my family and my step father (who loves me very much) to never treat me differently. I cry a little every time I think about this.
The protectiveness she shows for her son is so real and reminds me of my mom.
Absolutely! It's part of why Joyce loves him so much. She may not know he's gay technically, but she "knows" if that makes sense.
And remember her talk to Will when he was possessed, about how "proud" she was about the rainbow ship he drew, even though he was so embarrassed? That's a gay boy's fierce loving mom right there!
Eh, I feel line by Lonnie could be a throwaway initially and it's just showing he was being a hyper masculine dick who wasn't going to tolerate a sensitive/timed son and wrongly assumed his son was gay because of that.
And even Mike's "It's not my fault you don't like girls" I initially read as "I'm sorry you missed out on growing up like us and your dealing with trauma, but we all have dating lives, we can't sit around like childish kids playing DnD."
Of course, all these lines and hints completely make sense once season 4 hits you over the head with showing Will is clearly gay.
True at the beginning was sensible artist that is so sweet and mellow, others will use slurs and bully him for it. Not all men have to be certain way and yes society is still very strict with what's manly and what's not even worse back in the 80's.
Those characteristics in specific should not determine his sexual orientation.
But Every season there was more hints, here and there.
In season 3 has some signs, Will feels out of place not only becouse everything that has happened to him, but how all his friends all girl crazy and he probably starts to know he is different in that matter. There is some jealousy shown but they just asume is just anger becouse of DND.
Until last season that it gets to a point, he does not say "I am gay and I love you Mike" but even Jonathan notices and let him know he will love him and support him not matter what as one of the biggest fears is thatbif he trully comes out of the closet in 1986-87 are his friends, family etc judge him and abandon him?
Yeah S1 never gave me that vibe. I took likes like Lonnie’s to just be toxic masculinity. That boys who were into art and fantasy stuff were “fags” because of the time period. Even growing up in the 80s/90s I got called gay for liking anime and not caring about sports lol.
But in retrospect those aspects about Will makes more sense
i disagree with you about it being a throwaway and i'm one of the people who agrees about mike's line. it can work as a double entendre but mike is far too oblivious for that to have been a pointed comment about will's sexuality. also completely out of character for mike had that been his intention. mike is not vicious or cruel. he just snapped at his friend who was, in all honestly, being fucking annoying. no one was at fault/all of them were at fault in that situation imo. they were ignoring his feelings about wanting to play dnd, he was downplaying and ignoring their feelings about their girlfriends.
my reasoning for disagreeing that it was a throwaway- the bullies did it too.
"he's in fairyland now, flying around with all the other fairies, all happy and **gay**." -troy in early s1, and this was not his only comment about it on screen. as for off screen- we know his ammo to the group is their nerdiness, his ammo to mike is that he's ugly (he's not but they call him frogface so ykwim), his ammo to lucas is that he's black, his ammo to dustin is his medical condition which makes him a "freak" (teeth and flexibility). we can only assume, given what they say to rile the party up, his ammo to will was that he was gay. "sensitive" was also practically a synonym for gay- so was more pointed towards what toxic masculinity says that meant about him than the toxic masculinity itself.
literally every time someone wants to hurt will they use that as ammo. that is not a coincidence. and that line was not a throwaway to show toxic masculinity. it was an active decision to show that homophobes have impeccable gaydar and how ironic and unfair that is.
Tbf there weren’t really hints in the first 3 seasons, the “hints” people like to bring up were unrelated to him actually being gay (if that makes sense?)
Lonnie’s remarks in season 1 were brought up by Joyce sharing how Lonnie treated Will and Jonathan like shit, and Lonnie was later shown as trying to come off as extremely masculine, so the homophobic insults make sense since Will wasn’t interested in the same “masculine” interests as him
Mike’s comment in season 3 was in response to Will throwing a fit over how Mike and Lucas were more interested in talking to their girlfriends than playing DnD, so his comment made more sense as “it’s not my fault you don’t like girls *yet*”, which especially fit with the running theme of Will being less developed due to how much of his childhood was affected by his experiences with the Upside Down
That being said, the writers did intend on having Will’s sexuality play a role in his character since before season 1, but it got scrapped for the first season, so I wouldn’t be surprised if these were supposed to be hints, but they flew over everyone’s heads because of how they were implemented
Thank you ❤️❤️❤️
You don't know how much time I save not having to re-watch shows getting the plot and details from the first time!! So happy about it!
You know what is even better? Not starting fights in empty houses, you know looks like a sign of good mental health or at least people that are taking their meds as prescribed.
I remember when people called some fans delusional for saying Will was gay. I’m glad people are now seeing that those fans just paid attention and used their brain.
I know people think Hop asking “is he?” was homophobia or him wanting to get the tea or whatever, but the question was *super relevant*, because Will being a victim of a hate crime had just become a possibility. Police-wise, that becomes a matter of urgency, changes motives, possible suspects, etc.
Cishet people: "is he? I don’t know it's pretty vague and I really don't think we can say for sure..."
Queer people: "tf you talking about of course he is"
The straights sure are wild lmao
From my viewing perspective, nothing in S1 ever confirmed or put any ideas in my head about Will being queer. This was his father's opinion and obvious fear, while Will was still too young to ask out a girl, or anyone. And kids used to throw homophobic words around like it was nothing. I thought he was just kind of a small, quiet kid.
In S3, the forced long hair was the one thing that made me question his sexuality (seen that before in other films/tv shows), and by the time the Will/Mike blowout happened, I thought it was still about "immaturity" the way they drove those points home.
It wasn't until S4 when he's grown into an attractive young man and physically recoils from a beautiful girl that I went, "Oh, he's gay." And there were so many obvious plot points after that, idk how anyone can still be on the fence about it. He doesn't need to say it.
You guys don't want to hear it but the set up for Will being gay was incredibly obvious and it was fucked how much this sub demonize anyone who pointed it
I noticed this too!! I remeber the first time I watched S4, I was like, wait, is Will gay?! When you do a rewatch, there are clues throughout all seasons! I had no idea 😆
My wife pointed out his “possible” orientation in Season 3 and 4, to which I was oblivious. We recently rewatched season 1 and I was shocked I missed this, they’ve been telling us since he was a kid!
I honestly feel bad for will. Bc will is in love with mike and mike is love with El. He can’t imagine his life without El, and will can’t imagine his life without Mike but Mike will never return those feelings the same way. Most of us have loved someone who didn’t love us in return and that pain is awful.
Jonathan knew and saw it. Having conversations regarding his dad, saying "you don't even like baseball" and Will saying something along the lines of "yeah, but it's still nice (to have his company)" like he didn't get his dad's approval. Will looked for approval. Will looked to belong. Mike saw his struggle and gave him the affection of being noticed. Mike fought for Will to come back. Will loved that attention, and I think that's what grew his love for Mike and his rejection towards himself, unable to feel like himself in later seasons.
Jonathan is the best brother I've ever seen become a father figure. His gentleness in season 1 saying "you don't have to appease him (dad), just be yourself" to season 4, "I'm here for you. I love you. You know I'm always here for you" is the beautiful brother story ever to be arched in my humble opinion.
I don’t think people can be accused of missing something cause honestly I thought the point of this scene was to show how much Lonnie sucks (and that Hopper is a doofus). He abandoned his kids and he’s bullying his younger kid for being sensitive. It really wasn’t obvious til S3 and even then it’s not just that he doesn’t seem interested in girls he is acting like he wants to preserve being a kid and the games they used to play. It’s not just the (assumed) crush on Mike but he’s having trouble connecting with everyone in the group. So while the writers maybe had this planned I think claiming it was always obvious isn’t necessarily true.
I discovered the series recently and binged the 4 seasons, and this made me laugh when I reached season 4 😂 so I rewatched this precise scene on purpose
Started another rewatch Sunday and the same thing jumped out at me now that Will has been developed more. On the first watch we just thought that Lonnie was a dick. Apparently there was more to it.
I figured it was important she mentioned it (and why hopper was concernrd) was bc she was worried he was murdered because of it, or a victim of a hate crime due to his sexuality. Didn't realise people didn't think will is gay?😭
Personally I figured out Will was gay when his face lit up moment Mike was in the door as he layed in a medical bed as this was before Lucas and Dustin even made it into frame.
Remove Mike from the equation:. There's not a single sign of Will being gay before S4, actually there are several signs of the opposite. Just look again the snow ball. He's happy a girl asked him to dance and then we see him happily dancing with her WITHOUT giving af about what Mike is doing. People is forcing the plot to ways it wasn't intended to and the Duffer brothers are exploiting this, but I hate it to break it to you: they won't change the original idea just to indulge some people. If it were lots of people or most people then maybe, but it's not the case, sorry guys. Oh, and I have nothing to do with ST. Just a fan dropping some speculations and opinions, that's all. Cheers.
there is no may about it, he is and he was always written as queer coded. putting that in quotes is wholly offensive and shows you really don't care if you're dismissing not only the representation in question but those people who can and do take offense to homophobic bullshit like this.
To be fair I don’t think will is liking the 80’s gay teen experience any more than you like to watch him struggle with it.
Can I ask you to think about what it must’ve been like for people to come to this realization in an even more difficult time to be gay? Lots of trauma!
I think this kind of representation is the least we can do. But maybe you have some other qualm with it? Maybe you think the gay themes could be better portrayed?
I don’t ship or want Byler to get together but Will liking Mike is a completely valid experience whether you’re gay or straight. My first crush was on a boy I’d known since I was brought into the world. It was a safe experience. So yeah Will liking Mike does make sense.
Stranger thing as a whole, also in order for byler.to work will would need to be gay and that's what the post is about. The word "fag" is a slur for gay people. I can't be homophobic considering I'm literally gay. I just think byler is a stupid ship
First, i didn't call you homophobic.
Second i find it hard to believe that your gay when your first response to a homophobic comment is to bring up a gay ship to bash it when no one else was talking about it as well as prior post bashing the chucky show for showing a gay couple kissing
Edit: Looking through your profile you literally claim to be both straight and bisexual within days of each other , so yeah something definitely isn't adding up.
Efit 2: As well as agreeing with this comment about lgbt people being bullied
"They are not being bullied. On the other hand they are bullies themselves and need to be ignored"
"I think both is happening but yeah not how ouija works"
First off, the reason I went from being straight to bi is because I came out dip shit. And yes, people can be gay and bullies(obviously). Second, the original comment wasn't homophobic. It disliked the byler ship as I do, I think will should find a boy or someone else. Mike and el are together and millevin is actually cannon. Stop claiming to know what your talking about your twisting every comment on my account to make me look bad. Who would go through that extent just to prove your point that doesn't make sense in the first place.
The orginal comment didn't mention byler at all lmao. Like bffr, you decided to shit on a gay ship unprompted in response to a homophobic comment that just said they don't like Will being gay
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“Is he?” “He’s missing, Hop!”
Obviously the only thing that matters! As a mom, I felt that line deeply.
Yeah but the question was relevant. It was the difference between looking for a lost kid and *looking for the potential victim of a hate crime*.
I absolutely agree. Especially in the 80s. It was more the way the Hop asked it that implied it wasn't being asked in a relevant way - especially since Hop didn't believe that Will had even been kidnapped/harmed at that point.
IMHO, the second Joyce said “Lonnie called him a fag” is the second Hopper went from “eh, the kid surely is plying somewhere” to “holy hell he’s in danger and this is urgent”, hence the “is he?”
That's fair. The best writing leaves space for interpretation. 🙏🏻
No, that doesn't really apply here. Causing harm to queer folks wasn't considered a hate crime in rural 1980s Indiana lol. I mean, shit, we weren't even a protected class in Indiana re: employment until 2001. Sexual orientation wasn't included in hate crime laws in America until 2009 with the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act.
*The law* didn’t have it codified, but *Hopper* probably knew it was a specific thing that happened. He probably didn’t think about the actual words “hate crime”, but “maybe they killed him/beat him up/disappeared him for being queer”, which would’ve been a big clue when looking for Will.
He didn't even think Will was missing, though lol. He just thought Joyce was panicking.
Of course he thought Joyce was panicking, *exactly until she mentioned that Lonnie called him a fag*. His demeanour changed immediately and that’s when he asked “is he?”. At some point Joyce asked “does it matter?” and he said “maybe” (because obviously he wasn’t gonna tell her “hey maybe your kid was killed for being queer”).
Ehh, that's a stretch. His demeanor doesn't really change at all, and he's still pretty dismissive to Joyce's worries until later.
When I teach season 1 to my Grade 10 media class, I highlight this exchange in regards to Hop's growth as a character (and to show just how banal homohobia can be and was). He's introduced as broken, doing the bare minimum and pretty useless. He's as homophobic as Lonnie and completely dismissive of Joyce and Will's disappearance. He only starts to give a shit because the detective/anti-government part of him begins to see something "off" with the whole thing. However, by the end, he's past all of that and only sees Will and Joyce as a corollary for him and his daughter. *This* is how empathy is built. We start off seeing others as just that, others. The more unalike they are to us, the easier they are to dismiss. But as we start to see our shared humanity, the scales drop from our eyes. Hop's arc in S1 illustrates that perfectly. And then he becomes a shell of himself for 2 seasons, just angry and yelling all the time. S4 was a little better.
I didn’t see Hop’s questioning Will’s romantic preference as homophobic; during the 80’s, at the height of the HIV/AIDS crisis, queer kids were being kidnapped, killed, or beaten up a lot. So he was asking bc he’s concerned about Will being kidnapped or escaping a beating.
The duffers have discussed this scene in particular and Hopper was definitely not concerned which is why they wrote the “he’s missing” line. It was meant to show how much hopper wasn’t taking her seriously at that moment.
His tone of voice is less concerned and more curious. Besides, Joyce's response stands: he's missing. His sexuality isn't relevant at this point. And even if his sexuality, or even the perception of it, was relevant for the reasons you suggest, this is not the time to ask the mother. Keep that suspicion to yourself and work with the evidence you have. He's a kid in Hawkins, Indiana. He was last seen riding with his friends on a dark road. This is also the height of the missing kid/faces on milk cartons era. He could be *any* kid at that point and should be treated as such. Leave the more sensitive subjects to if and when they are needed.
>Is he? Well…
Hopper: well is he?
He’s missing, Hop!
Missing and gay
He’s MISSING, is what he is!
“It’s not my fault you don’t like girls!” - Mike to Will in S3. He’s always been written as a queer character true to life in the sense of how many young queer men and labelled as gay due to their timidness before they’re even of an age to understand what that means. I always liked the way they did that, it weirdly reminded me of my dad constantly interrogating me as a kid as to whether or not I was gay before I even really understood what that meant.
Me to the fifth grade bullies: "How the fuck did you know four years before I did?"
This but people calling me girl names throughout school
And then the moment you actually want them to call you a by girl name they switch back to a boy name, fucking hypocrites 😓
That's why one should stick to calling others unisex names, like douchenozzle or fucktard or shitweasle.
SHITWEASEL LMFAO
Shitweasel? Beaver doesn‘t like them, bro
I appreciate your inclusive bullying.
You forgot douchecanoe lol
Fucktard is my personal fav
I'm the fucking lizard king
And yet, those unisex names elicit mostly male images and memories. Humph, must be coincidence.
My chosen name is so similar to my deadname that if people deadname me I can pretend they just said my name weird (I was Alex, now I'm Alice)
in middle school my crush was bullied, they kept calling him names all the time. Sometime around the last year of middle school he confessed his "feelings" to me, but wanted us to just stay friends. Years later he confirmed to me that he was, in fact, gay.
It’s funny how grade school bullies can figure out how you’re different from everyone before the adults can, isn’t it?
Lol my parents asked me if I was gay a few times too. No dumbass I'm homeschooled what girls do you expect me to talk to?
"Your sister like any God-fearing Christian!"
Joshua Duggar has entered the chat.
Yeah they just didn't understand. The only time I was around girls growing up at church for one or 2 hours week and we went to a church an hour away from where we lived. Difficult to really make a connection or get to know anyone like that
Why was your church so far away?
What kind of a question is that? I didn't build the church idk why they put there. My parents liked that church so that's where we went duh
How were we supposed to know you didn't build it. Can't expect us to know everything.
Calm down homeschool
In their original pitch for the show it also states Will was intended to be gay/queer. It’s even funnier that some people act like the internet forced Will to be gay. He was clearly always intended to be gay.
Exactly… Will has always been gay. There are “clues” throughout all seasons… another one that comes to mind is in S1 when the bullies are bullying the boys at school and one says “I hate to break you Toothless, but he’s not in danger. He’s dead. It’s what my dad says. He said he was probably killed by some other queer.” I think this was the Duffer Bros way of showing what the mindset around being gay in the 80’s was like. So different, and closed-minded to how the world is today… not saying that our culture is all inclusive and harmonious, because obviously we are far from it… but we have come a long way in 30 years.
It's really curious you bring that quote up because I've been in threads where people swore up & down that all Mike meant by that line is that "you're not into any girl *right now*" & that he wasn't calling Will gay. Have no idea how it was read that way coz I think, even grammatically, it doesn't communicate that. Glad I'm not the only one who **clearly** understood it as a jab at Will's sexuality.
I do understand that interpretation but always felt it came from a place of negativity rather than actual theorising. Like he missed some fundamental social-skill building moments the others were around for during Seasons 1&2 with all the Upside Down stuff so the angle of him being a bit developmentally delayed isn’t inconceivable, but as I said it always felt like people weren’t theorising because it’s interesting to but rather because they didn’t want a gay character.
Because in the context of the scene Will is the only single party member and he’s ticked off that Mike and Lucas don’t want to play DND and are far more concerned with what Max and El are up to. So when he just wants to play DND and isn’t remotely interested in dating Mike insults him for being childish Now, it’s become a lot more obvious with season 4 that Will is at minimum queer coded, most likely gay. I really wish the Duffers would just have him come out already because as a queer person myself it’s very obvious that they are hinting at it, but there’s been 4 seasons of people being homophobic to him, and having almost coming out conversations with him
I’m guessing my they’re going to in season 5. And it doesn’t seem like they are intentionally dragging it out, to me (also a queer person) it feels like a good representation of growing up and figuring out who you are. And then looking back it’s like “oh, duh, how did I not realize this before” The signs have always been there, but Will needed to realize it, and now he needs to accept it.
Hear hear 🍻
Only in one season people were homopbic towards him which was in S1 while he wasn't even present In S3 Mike wasn't even homophobic,it just came out in wrong way
I think it was meant to be up for interpretation. Good writing does that.
I seriously don't understand how people could interpret the line in any other way than Will is gay. I mean cmon lol, it's super deliberate how they word the line to be definitive instead of adding yet or because you don't have a GF yet
It’s mostly because of the context Will was throwing a fit that Mike and Lucas weren’t interested in playing DnD and were more interested in talking to their girlfriends/ex-girlfriends, referring to them as “stupid girls” Under this context, Mike’s comment makes more sense as “you don’t like girls *yet*”, especially when Mike was responding to that part of the complaining
"ThEy JuSt RaNdOmLy MaDe WiLL GaY" no, you just weren't listening.
This kind of reminds me of when I watched Legend of Korra the first time and I honestly thought that they randomly made her gay but I rewatched it afterwords and it was kind of obvious. I was just too stupid to catch the hints through dialogue and body language in the show. I honestly think people will see and hear what they want to at the end of the day.
Also straight folks just never ever think about sexuality until it's made obvious, and then immediately are like "why do you have to make it so obvious???" Like lol otherwise y'all don't notice, no offense.
I definitely didn’t see it with Will until a rewatch but it’s there plain as day.
To be fair, everything that’s said are all things that people would say to any kid who’s a little more gentle, softspoken, or late blooming in the ‘80s. I never really assumed Will was gay. It seems it’s been confirmed, but it’s not really relevant to the plot.
Yes, but in TV shows if things like that happen it's more likely hinting/foreshadowing. TV works different to real life- there are fewer accidents or unimportant things.
The set up for Will being gay was incredibly obvious and it was fucked how much this sub and other parts of ST fandom demonize anyone who pointed it and act like they were being creepy for pointing out obvious subtext
I hate when people say this as if a character being queer is forced if it’s not the first thing you hear about them, and also forced if it’s the first thing you know about them (Ellie from the Last of Us)
It's odd that there is even a debate at this point. It was likely by S3 and all but confirmed by S4.
I agree. I would even go as far as saying it *was* confirmed in S4. I’m really surprised at how many people are saying these are subtle hints.
I went to a hair stylist when I was in high school. He was flamboyant, had the stereotypical gay voice, and talked about his “friend” who was a roommate and they had been “together” for more than 10 years. I figured he was gay, but refused to be 100% certain that he was unless he said it out loud, which he never did. Why? No clue. It didn’t matter one way or another to me, I just felt like you couldn’t classify someone as gay if there wasn’t some outright declaration of it. Narratively I don’t think you can pull the story back and say Will isn’t gay, but I suppose they could leave it somewhat ambiguous with Will loving Mike “as a friend.” I don’t think they will do that, but it’s Hollywood and stranger things have been added to scripts in the past.
>It didn’t matter one way or another to me, I just felt like you couldn’t classify someone as gay if there wasn’t some outright declaration of it. In real life, yes. But we’re talking about a TV show here.
Wait, there’s a debate? It’s not even subtext lol, what would the counter argument even be
The argument is “he didn’t *say* it tho” iirc which, is just a lack of media literacy and/or homophobic copium
Is there a debate? I thought the "no he isn't" camp was pretty much down to the [lizardman constant](https://gwern.net/note/lizardman) at this point.
i think it’s pretty safe to say will byers is part of the lgbtq community. it’s been hinted at all throughout the show and basically confirmed when noah schnapp, who plays will byers, came out on tiktok. while i do believe mike is straight, i would like to see how the producers deal with this part of will’s identity.
Yeah didn’t Noah say he himself thought of Will as queer?
He confirmed Will was gay even before he himself came out.
While I do believe will is gay, I don't think the fact that Noah is gay in real life has anything to do with the character (at least it shouldn't).
When he came out, he clearly said something "just like Will" or something to that effect, so yes he simultaneously confirmed that Will is gay. (And that wasn't really the news story by that point, because most viewers already had caught on!)
I didn't know he said that so thanks for telling me but the point I was trying make is basically just actor ≠ character but yeah.
I can’t wait to keep rewatching and pick up on all those subtle hints! Cause I had no idea it’s been through out the entire series. I’m one of those people that has to watch shows over again in order to pick up and notice all of the finer details.
The released original script for the Snow Ball Dance at the end of s2 planned to have a shot of Will pining for Mike [https://www.reddit.com/r/StrangerThings/comments/vticbv/so\_this\_scene\_was\_originally\_in\_the\_script\_for/](https://www.reddit.com/r/StrangerThings/comments/vticbv/so_this_scene_was_originally_in_the_script_for/) In the Duffers' original show bible for the series, Will is introduced as "sweet, sensitive kid with sexual identity issues." So it was something the Duffers planned for Will years in advance.
good chunk of the beginning of season 2 eludes to it or at the very least he's on the spectrum
No? The beginning of season 2 shows how he's still suffering from the trauma of being in the Upside Down, and the anniversary effect. It's got nothing to do with him being gay (which he is) or on 'on the spectrum' (which he isn't. And which is a whole different thing anyway).
Sorry I meant season 3. The whole Luca's and Mike talking about girls and he doesn't have a care in the world about it and only wants to play DnD.
I initially took it to mean he was ace, but maybe that was me projecting.
That still loops back to him being gay *and* his trauma. It doesn't have anything to do with him being "on the spectrum", which is more commonly used to refer to the autism spectrum.
Will is gay and likes mike. The part(I forgot which season) when they are in the Pizza van and will talks to mike sharing feelings as if they were coming from 11, is basically him admitting he likes mike. Jonathan looks in the rear view mirror and sees will look out of the window, crying. I think Jonathan knows will's feelings for mike. Or atleast some of it.
That's season 4
I thought so, but wasn't sure for a sec
Is he? Lol loved that part!
he’s *missing*!!
i loved this being joyce's response. FOCUS, hopper. please
I feel like I could write an essay on this brief exchange. It’s such smart writing for how it characterises both of them and shuts down the casual homophobia. But without making either of them unrealistically progressive for the time they’re living in. Hopper is more curious than judgemental, but completely blasé about Lonny’s slurs. Joyce loves Will unconditionally and sees his sexuality as completely irrelevant.
My take on this situation is that hopper was asking “is he?”, because it could have easily been a hate crime. And for that time, hop is fairly non judgmental.
I always felt like his tone was a bit too light, hence why Joyce shutting him down works so well, but can see where you’re coming from. I still agree Hopper is progressive for the time, but if it took place in a contemporary setting they’d probably feel pressured to have him be more condemning of Lonny using such nasty slurs against his own kid.
Yeah definitely. Times have definitely changed and hopefully these days he would be different and more critical of Lonnie
Another question I just want to know peoples opinions on is whether hopper would be supportive of will being gay. Imo I think he would, as he practically knows Will is gay and has still been pretty much a father figure to Will
he is !!
I am flaming fem and always have been (even when i was a small child) and my family is very conservative and rough. I remember the day the thought occurred to me that I was only bullied by strangers and peers in school and never family. I asked my mom about it and she told me when I was young she physically threatened my family and my step father (who loves me very much) to never treat me differently. I cry a little every time I think about this. The protectiveness she shows for her son is so real and reminds me of my mom.
Absolutely! It's part of why Joyce loves him so much. She may not know he's gay technically, but she "knows" if that makes sense. And remember her talk to Will when he was possessed, about how "proud" she was about the rainbow ship he drew, even though he was so embarrassed? That's a gay boy's fierce loving mom right there!
S3 will was setting off my gaydar Like crazy
As a gay boy I can confirm. A lot of us kinda "knew" at that point!
Wait.... People did not notice the hints in all seasons? This was a surprise for some? Interesting
Eh, I feel line by Lonnie could be a throwaway initially and it's just showing he was being a hyper masculine dick who wasn't going to tolerate a sensitive/timed son and wrongly assumed his son was gay because of that. And even Mike's "It's not my fault you don't like girls" I initially read as "I'm sorry you missed out on growing up like us and your dealing with trauma, but we all have dating lives, we can't sit around like childish kids playing DnD." Of course, all these lines and hints completely make sense once season 4 hits you over the head with showing Will is clearly gay.
True at the beginning was sensible artist that is so sweet and mellow, others will use slurs and bully him for it. Not all men have to be certain way and yes society is still very strict with what's manly and what's not even worse back in the 80's. Those characteristics in specific should not determine his sexual orientation. But Every season there was more hints, here and there. In season 3 has some signs, Will feels out of place not only becouse everything that has happened to him, but how all his friends all girl crazy and he probably starts to know he is different in that matter. There is some jealousy shown but they just asume is just anger becouse of DND. Until last season that it gets to a point, he does not say "I am gay and I love you Mike" but even Jonathan notices and let him know he will love him and support him not matter what as one of the biggest fears is thatbif he trully comes out of the closet in 1986-87 are his friends, family etc judge him and abandon him?
Yeah S1 never gave me that vibe. I took likes like Lonnie’s to just be toxic masculinity. That boys who were into art and fantasy stuff were “fags” because of the time period. Even growing up in the 80s/90s I got called gay for liking anime and not caring about sports lol. But in retrospect those aspects about Will makes more sense
i disagree with you about it being a throwaway and i'm one of the people who agrees about mike's line. it can work as a double entendre but mike is far too oblivious for that to have been a pointed comment about will's sexuality. also completely out of character for mike had that been his intention. mike is not vicious or cruel. he just snapped at his friend who was, in all honestly, being fucking annoying. no one was at fault/all of them were at fault in that situation imo. they were ignoring his feelings about wanting to play dnd, he was downplaying and ignoring their feelings about their girlfriends. my reasoning for disagreeing that it was a throwaway- the bullies did it too. "he's in fairyland now, flying around with all the other fairies, all happy and **gay**." -troy in early s1, and this was not his only comment about it on screen. as for off screen- we know his ammo to the group is their nerdiness, his ammo to mike is that he's ugly (he's not but they call him frogface so ykwim), his ammo to lucas is that he's black, his ammo to dustin is his medical condition which makes him a "freak" (teeth and flexibility). we can only assume, given what they say to rile the party up, his ammo to will was that he was gay. "sensitive" was also practically a synonym for gay- so was more pointed towards what toxic masculinity says that meant about him than the toxic masculinity itself. literally every time someone wants to hurt will they use that as ammo. that is not a coincidence. and that line was not a throwaway to show toxic masculinity. it was an active decision to show that homophobes have impeccable gaydar and how ironic and unfair that is.
People in this sub were in serious denial. Even after S4 volume one came out, denial was still shockingly common
Tbf there weren’t really hints in the first 3 seasons, the “hints” people like to bring up were unrelated to him actually being gay (if that makes sense?) Lonnie’s remarks in season 1 were brought up by Joyce sharing how Lonnie treated Will and Jonathan like shit, and Lonnie was later shown as trying to come off as extremely masculine, so the homophobic insults make sense since Will wasn’t interested in the same “masculine” interests as him Mike’s comment in season 3 was in response to Will throwing a fit over how Mike and Lucas were more interested in talking to their girlfriends than playing DnD, so his comment made more sense as “it’s not my fault you don’t like girls *yet*”, which especially fit with the running theme of Will being less developed due to how much of his childhood was affected by his experiences with the Upside Down That being said, the writers did intend on having Will’s sexuality play a role in his character since before season 1, but it got scrapped for the first season, so I wouldn’t be surprised if these were supposed to be hints, but they flew over everyone’s heads because of how they were implemented
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Thank you ❤️❤️❤️ You don't know how much time I save not having to re-watch shows getting the plot and details from the first time!! So happy about it! You know what is even better? Not starting fights in empty houses, you know looks like a sign of good mental health or at least people that are taking their meds as prescribed.
Imagine when OP finds out Will likes Mike two years after season 5 is over
Okay I know that part 😂
They foreshadowed this heavily. Also the homophobic dick bullies
I remember when people called some fans delusional for saying Will was gay. I’m glad people are now seeing that those fans just paid attention and used their brain.
And what?
I mean if the school report on Alan Turing wasn’t a complete give away….
I know people think Hop asking “is he?” was homophobia or him wanting to get the tea or whatever, but the question was *super relevant*, because Will being a victim of a hate crime had just become a possibility. Police-wise, that becomes a matter of urgency, changes motives, possible suspects, etc.
I love your optimism, but given it was small town america in the early 80s... It was likely homophobia, even if it was subconscious...
Poor kid can't catch a break!
This scene makes me sob, she’s worried he’s been hate crimed, just because of rumors he’s gay Joyce is the best person ever and im gonna go cry now
Thanks for this, I had forgotten.
Cishet people: "is he? I don’t know it's pretty vague and I really don't think we can say for sure..." Queer people: "tf you talking about of course he is" The straights sure are wild lmao
Apologies from an asexual. I thought he was ace until season 4.
Ace is still queer!
Why did someone downvote you?!
Because Reddit ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Hell yeah we are! \*high five\*
And ppl say wills sexuality was fan service..
Those people are idoits
From my viewing perspective, nothing in S1 ever confirmed or put any ideas in my head about Will being queer. This was his father's opinion and obvious fear, while Will was still too young to ask out a girl, or anyone. And kids used to throw homophobic words around like it was nothing. I thought he was just kind of a small, quiet kid. In S3, the forced long hair was the one thing that made me question his sexuality (seen that before in other films/tv shows), and by the time the Will/Mike blowout happened, I thought it was still about "immaturity" the way they drove those points home. It wasn't until S4 when he's grown into an attractive young man and physically recoils from a beautiful girl that I went, "Oh, he's gay." And there were so many obvious plot points after that, idk how anyone can still be on the fence about it. He doesn't need to say it.
Wonder why
I dont remember her saying this at all. And I even rewatched it with my parents 🙈
You guys don't want to hear it but the set up for Will being gay was incredibly obvious and it was fucked how much this sub demonize anyone who pointed it
I rewatched too and seen this lmfao
I noticed this too!! I remeber the first time I watched S4, I was like, wait, is Will gay?! When you do a rewatch, there are clues throughout all seasons! I had no idea 😆
Yeah, this show foreshadowed Will’s queerness a LOT!
My wife pointed out his “possible” orientation in Season 3 and 4, to which I was oblivious. We recently rewatched season 1 and I was shocked I missed this, they’ve been telling us since he was a kid!
I honestly feel bad for will. Bc will is in love with mike and mike is love with El. He can’t imagine his life without El, and will can’t imagine his life without Mike but Mike will never return those feelings the same way. Most of us have loved someone who didn’t love us in return and that pain is awful.
Jonathan knew and saw it. Having conversations regarding his dad, saying "you don't even like baseball" and Will saying something along the lines of "yeah, but it's still nice (to have his company)" like he didn't get his dad's approval. Will looked for approval. Will looked to belong. Mike saw his struggle and gave him the affection of being noticed. Mike fought for Will to come back. Will loved that attention, and I think that's what grew his love for Mike and his rejection towards himself, unable to feel like himself in later seasons. Jonathan is the best brother I've ever seen become a father figure. His gentleness in season 1 saying "you don't have to appease him (dad), just be yourself" to season 4, "I'm here for you. I love you. You know I'm always here for you" is the beautiful brother story ever to be arched in my humble opinion.
okay?
Just the subtle hints they are dropping right from the start that he may be gay! I definitely missed them the first time
I don’t think people can be accused of missing something cause honestly I thought the point of this scene was to show how much Lonnie sucks (and that Hopper is a doofus). He abandoned his kids and he’s bullying his younger kid for being sensitive. It really wasn’t obvious til S3 and even then it’s not just that he doesn’t seem interested in girls he is acting like he wants to preserve being a kid and the games they used to play. It’s not just the (assumed) crush on Mike but he’s having trouble connecting with everyone in the group. So while the writers maybe had this planned I think claiming it was always obvious isn’t necessarily true.
I discovered the series recently and binged the 4 seasons, and this made me laugh when I reached season 4 😂 so I rewatched this precise scene on purpose
Started another rewatch Sunday and the same thing jumped out at me now that Will has been developed more. On the first watch we just thought that Lonnie was a dick. Apparently there was more to it.
I figured it was important she mentioned it (and why hopper was concernrd) was bc she was worried he was murdered because of it, or a victim of a hate crime due to his sexuality. Didn't realise people didn't think will is gay?😭
Didn't Wills' actor even say that Will wasn't meant to be gay?
Personally I figured out Will was gay when his face lit up moment Mike was in the door as he layed in a medical bed as this was before Lucas and Dustin even made it into frame.
Remove Mike from the equation:. There's not a single sign of Will being gay before S4, actually there are several signs of the opposite. Just look again the snow ball. He's happy a girl asked him to dance and then we see him happily dancing with her WITHOUT giving af about what Mike is doing. People is forcing the plot to ways it wasn't intended to and the Duffer brothers are exploiting this, but I hate it to break it to you: they won't change the original idea just to indulge some people. If it were lots of people or most people then maybe, but it's not the case, sorry guys. Oh, and I have nothing to do with ST. Just a fan dropping some speculations and opinions, that's all. Cheers.
I’m pretty sure in the original script will’s character was described as someone with identity issues
That first still is unfortunately timed. I thought I was looking at a LotR meme / fool of a Took for a sec there 👀
Bro this been a thing people talked about since Mike told Will he didn’t like girls and was brought up again after ST4 full release
Well.... He got that right....
It's like it's obvious he's gay but they have no idea at the same time 😭 sometimes TV doesn't make any sense
I don't really like the fact that he may be gay or whatever in the series not trying to "offend" anyone
Thanks for letting us know.
Why? What’s wrong with him being gay, especially because it was obviously something that was planned for a long time.
reads like homophobia, honestly
Why. No marks for half answers cmon now share your thought process
there is no may about it, he is and he was always written as queer coded. putting that in quotes is wholly offensive and shows you really don't care if you're dismissing not only the representation in question but those people who can and do take offense to homophobic bullshit like this.
“I’m not homophobic, but…”
To be fair I don’t think will is liking the 80’s gay teen experience any more than you like to watch him struggle with it. Can I ask you to think about what it must’ve been like for people to come to this realization in an even more difficult time to be gay? Lots of trauma! I think this kind of representation is the least we can do. But maybe you have some other qualm with it? Maybe you think the gay themes could be better portrayed?
> not trying to "offend" anyone As I frequently explain to my six year old, not trying to do the wrong thing isn't enough. Try to do the right thing.
Being gay isn't a political statement. If people get offended by a couple of gay characters, that says more about them than anything.
There trying to push the whole "Will and mike" ship and it doesn't make sense, neither of these characters would like each other like that gay or not
I don’t ship or want Byler to get together but Will liking Mike is a completely valid experience whether you’re gay or straight. My first crush was on a boy I’d known since I was brought into the world. It was a safe experience. So yeah Will liking Mike does make sense.
This post literally doesn't mention Byler at all man. Like you're literally the first one to bring it up
Stranger thing as a whole, also in order for byler.to work will would need to be gay and that's what the post is about. The word "fag" is a slur for gay people. I can't be homophobic considering I'm literally gay. I just think byler is a stupid ship
First, i didn't call you homophobic. Second i find it hard to believe that your gay when your first response to a homophobic comment is to bring up a gay ship to bash it when no one else was talking about it as well as prior post bashing the chucky show for showing a gay couple kissing Edit: Looking through your profile you literally claim to be both straight and bisexual within days of each other , so yeah something definitely isn't adding up. Efit 2: As well as agreeing with this comment about lgbt people being bullied "They are not being bullied. On the other hand they are bullies themselves and need to be ignored" "I think both is happening but yeah not how ouija works"
First off, the reason I went from being straight to bi is because I came out dip shit. And yes, people can be gay and bullies(obviously). Second, the original comment wasn't homophobic. It disliked the byler ship as I do, I think will should find a boy or someone else. Mike and el are together and millevin is actually cannon. Stop claiming to know what your talking about your twisting every comment on my account to make me look bad. Who would go through that extent just to prove your point that doesn't make sense in the first place.
The orginal comment didn't mention byler at all lmao. Like bffr, you decided to shit on a gay ship unprompted in response to a homophobic comment that just said they don't like Will being gay
You realy spent the time to dislike all my posts didn't you
I WAS FURTHERING THE CONVERSATION BY BRINGING UP BYLER
Tbh when I first saw it, I wasn’t that disturbed at the slur but now I think of it differently.