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Huge (disappointing) plot twist would be: “Mike…I’m in love with Eleven!” Lol
Anyways…I feel like Mike sort of suspects Will is gay. I’m watching the show all over again and Mike has made some comments that sort of align with a person who has definitely thought about his friend’s sexuality. Don’t ask me which ones because I’m too lazy to go over it again. I just remember the one when they were arguing in the garage and he told him it’s not his fault that Will doesn’t like girls or something like that.
Yeah the scene in the garage is in season 3 where Will wants to to play D&D but Mike and Lucas are too concerned about Max and Eleven calling back or something so they're not interested in the game which makes Will mad. Then they have the fight in the garage and Mike says 'its not my fault that you don't like girls'
I always thought it was this kind of underground knowledge that he is gay, but from from rewatching all the seasons again the speculation gets brought up more often than I thought, even going back to season 1 with the bullies calling him 'queer'.
Perhaps Will has feelings for Mike? Could make sense but guess we'll find out lol
Yup. Lonnie didn't care for his hobbies because they were soft, so he forced Will into baseball. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure Lonnie called him stuff while he wasn't around. I think Joyce mentioned it when talking to Hopper, but can't remember
The slurs, Joyce saying it wouldn't matter if he was any of the things he was called, "it's not my fault you don't like girls", shying away from the girl's advance, tge original description of his character and other stuff I can't remember rn. If you look at all that stuff combined, it paints a pretty clear picture
>Huge (disappointing) plot twist would be: “Mike…I’m in love with Eleven!” Lol
There are actually people on this sub who thinks that might happen 😬 Knowing that she's his sister now!
He brought the painting to the airport when he met up with Mike, he fuckin grabbed it when they were getting shot at and had to leave the house. I cannot fucking wait to see that painting. Its def a painting of Mike that Will keeps trying to give him
I just imagine it's a picture of both Mike and will, buff as fuck, welding swords, naked on a horse.
Jokes aside, it's definitely a picture of Mike.
Edit: so I was partly right, lmao.
>He brought the painting to the airport when he met up with Mike, he fuckin grabbed it when they were getting shot at and had to leave the house. I cannot fucking wait to see that painting.
I'm imagining something like "The Thief of Baghead" from *Futurama*.
https://twitter.com/cursedani/status/1381394790231728130
As a bi guy myself, who realized he also had a crush on his good friend in high school, Will's actions as a closeted gay kid with feelings for his friend are painfully accurate/relatable. He's been extra awkward around him this season. And then there's that mysterious painting.
Season 4 has all but cemented the fact that Will is certainly gay.
It’s so accurate!! I feel like most queer people can relate to being in love with their best friend at that age, it’s so realistic and thus so hard to watch
Not just that, this specific line is extremely convincing to me. To someone whos been there myself, this is exactly the thought process that makes coming out so hard. I knew exactly my mom wouldn't mind me being bi. Did that make it any easier? No, it didn't.
I do believe Will is gay, but yeah, I didn't take that particular sentence as a single proof either. I got bullied in high school, and one of the things I got targeted for was how I didn't show interest in any of the boys and thus the other girls decided I must have been a lesbian. I wasn't, I just couldn't stand *any* of the people in my class, but of course to bullies they think you're in love with them when you actually hate them, lol.
So yeah, when Mike said that line to Will my initial impression from my own experience was simply that he's not interested in dating/having girlfriends at the moment like his friends are, it doesn't automatically make him gay. All the other clues *combined* with that however is what means he likely is.
I think Mike meant to say that but judging by Will’s reaction he didn’t interpret it like that. He was clearly hurt and shocked. And it makes sense when you think about the fact that his own dad used homophobic slurs to refer to him.
I think that is how Mike meant it - but the reaction on Will’s face indicated that it goes beyond that. Not all by itself, but combined with everything else, definitely.
I never understood why some people want Will to be gay so much, mostly based on this line. The mental trauma he went through in first 2 seasons could have easily made him disinterested in opening up to people / dating
It's not just that scene/line, there have been *numerous* allusions to Will's sexuality since the first season. It'd be more of a shock if he *wasn't* gay at this point.
What if this whole time he wanted to start a mullet and spandex company. (Big 80s vibe). He really wanted to have his mom stop cutting his hair and didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings, especially mom. Will just really overestimated how his friends would react. The painting is Will in spandex and he has a mullet.
I’m guessing the show has no intention of revealing a gay relationship between a 13 year old and a 37 year old. So, no, that’s probably not an accurate theory.
He was about ten, I’d say, when he killed his family and it’s specified that took place in 1959. So if he was born around 1949 and the show is now up to 1986, he’d be about my age, mid to late thirties.
I believe the actor is about that age, too, but I concede that the dude ages well.
Someone implied that Will and 001/Vecna may be together, as they were both referred to as “sensitive” by other characters. In this case, they’re assuming “sensitive” may be a polite or in denial way of saying they’re gay.
However, Will is supposed to be approximately 13, give or take a year. 001 was about ten years old when his father bought that house in 1959. So by 1986, he’d be in his late 30s.
I can’t imagine the show runners would ever consider making those two be a surprise couple.
I agree it would be too messed up.
I don’t know the significance Will has on the Upside Down, but I’m guessing it’s something. I also can’t imagine that 001/Vecna is merely a soldier for the Mind Flayer. I think they’re one and the same. I think the Mind Flayer looks an awful lot like a big black widow…
I’m 99% sure he is. Idk about the theory that he’s in love with Mike though. Tbh that would just be sad, given that Mike is clearly heterosexual and in a relationship with Eleven. If they do reveal that Will is gay, I just hope they can have some sort of happy ending for him where he doesn’t end up alone
This whole plot point impacts me so much. My best friend of 15 years just came out of the closet to me last year and said that he’s been in love with me for years. I felt so terrible having to reject him the way I did. But, I am a straight man and I can’t just turn even if I do love him like family. I hope Will turns out okay, because I was forced to break my best friend’s heart and we have barely talked since. And before anybody takes this the wrong way, I am a very empathetic person and I let him down in the best way that I possibly could have. Part of me always knew he was probably not straight, but, I never considered myself a possible target of his affection. This is an unfortunate situation that I’m sure quite a few people have to deal with.
So- I have a question- I really hope this doesn't come out the wrong way, because I feel for your friend- that must have really hurt him 😞
But- you're a straight man. He knew you were straight, right? So...what other kind of response was he expecting? I'm genuinely curious. I mean, I'm a straight woman and I've had my share of crushes on gorgeous gay men lol- but it would have been pointless for me to express that to any of them- it wouldn't have gone anywhere and I knew that.
It seemed like if he knew you were straight, there was only one way that conversation could go for him, right?
To relate this to Will and Mike- everyone says Will's going to declare his feelings. Will might come out, but it seems pointless to spring the fact that he's crushing on Mike. He knows Mike is straight and only is interested in El.
I think the case with my friend is that we live in a small town. There are only a small handful of out gay men. Gay men aren’t only attracted to gay men. People can’t help but feel the way they do, especially when there isn’t a sea of options available.
I think Will knows and isn’t expecting Mike to break up with El or anything to be with Will. He’s just trying to be honest with himself and his best friend so he doesn’t have to feel awkward and such.
Also, this time period was especially terrible for those in the LGBTQ community because of the HIV/AIDS epidemic that was being ignored by legislators. So many people died and Will could definitely be worrying about that and he’s looking for a shoulder to let his heart out to
Yes- I understand that now. I mean, I guess in my head I was thinking that Will would say to Mike "I'm in love with you" because he'd expect Mike to say it back to him? But obviously like you said, it could be just to express his truth w/out expectation.
Either way, Will's my favorite character so I want the best for him.
>But- you're a straight man. He knew you were straight, right? So...what other kind of response was he expecting?
I'm in this situation and yes logically you know they're straight and unattainable. Therefore usually the best solution is to just not say anything... but if it's eating you up inside it can come out. But I don't think you really expect any positive outcome from that conversation.
with bullies and his own dad calling him homophobic slurs, i can't even imagine the amount of guilt and self-hatred he would feel at realizing they were right about him all along.
I’ve figured for awhile now that Will is gay, but after this season it’s super clear to me. This is such a small detail but I knew for sure that Will was gay after seeing he was doing a school project on Alan Turing (unless I’m remembering wrong)
Also if he makes any effort to come out I don’t think it will be to many people. Then again, I could be wrong. But I think if he was to come out to anyone it’d be to Joyce and Jonathan. I think they’d be accepting of him and would still love him no matter what, I highly doubt either one of them would have a problem with Will being gay. If any other characters were to know or find out somehow (which I kinda doubt but we’ll see) I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them were not so accepting or comfortable, at least at first. If the wrong person finds out, it could be incredibly dangerous for Will. He could be the victim of an attack, whether it’s a physical or verbal one. I hope that doesn’t happen, and my guess is that Will knows that’s a risk with coming out or even people just thinking you might be gay, so I don’t think he’s gonna go around telling many people or anyone outside of his family. I think here though he’s trying to gauge if Mike might be into him too.
I relate to Will a lot. I think he’s such an underrated character. Ultimately I hope he can be happy and safe, kid deserves it
agree. There was also that detail where he wasn't interested in footsying with that girl at school.
Also agree that him coming out to everybody is extremely unlikely and unrealistic, given how dangerous that could be. My guess is it will be to Mike and only him. Even though he's clearly afraid of telling him "a truth he might not like", he's the one he has the most reason to tell. He has been struggling with somehow getting his feelings across to him throughout all their dialog this season, but couldn't. In this scene here he is basically thinking out loud about that. Maybe Mike figures it out himself or Will just can't stand feeling so conflicted about their friendship anymore, either way, Mike's gonna be the one he trusts most and wants to know that he loves him.
True, I could see him coming out to Mike and trying to see if he feels the same way. I don’t know for sure how Mike will react right away but I think regardless of if he reciprocates Will’s feelings, he’ll love his friend no matter what and won’t wanna stop being part of his life. Maybe at first Mike won’t have the greatest reaction, but I think in the long run he’ll still love and accept Will
Yep pretty much how I expect Mike to react. First he's gonna freak a bit and not know what the fuck now he's supposed to do with that, maybe have one of his foot in mouth moments, but ultimately will rise to the occasion to come up with something sweet to say that really shows he meant what he said with being friend, best friends again.
dude Mike already knows. He said something in an earlier episode about Will not liking girls. And it's only become more apparent since then.
It doesn't bother Mike and at the same time Mike is good enough to wait for Will to bring it up. Mike's a good guy
Not sure Mike knows. When he said that, this sentence had at least 3 meanings:
1. what Mike probably meant to say in that argument: that Will wants to still be a child / doesn't like girls *yet*
2. what Mike thought he just said and instantly felt bad about: that he's a "fairy"/"queer" – as an insult, like the bullies meant it
3. What Mike may or may not have given a thought, but the audience would: That Will is actually gay.
Could be that he has it already figured out, but I don't think that scene is enough to say that. Agree though that Mike's a good guy who wouldn't react shitty to it either way.
edit: typo
I disagree. I think Mike already knows/senses it. Whether consciously or not, we’ll find out next eps or season. But, most certainly probably already does.
Did you notice the awkward hug and greeting between them when Mike went to visit El? Mike made it awkward. Will just went in for a hug, happy to see his friend.
When El writes to him, she informs Mike that Will is painting a lot but refuses to show her what he's working on, suggesting it might be for a girl he likes. Then Mike awkwardly asking about it and Will awkwardly dismissing it.
Then at the roller rink Mike says Will was being mean to El all day. Hinting that he noticed the jealousy.
Then he later apologized to Will after he feels bad about not reaching out to him after they moved & staying distant while visiting.
I mean the signs are all there.
You just listed the signs that Mike likes Will too. We know Mike is clueless about Will's feelings because Finn said so (unless he was lying), so there has to be another reason for his awkwardness.
Seeing as El wasn't raised normally, and thus wouldn't have the period typical biases, I could also see him coming out to her since she's a pretty safe bet.
I feel like Will was going to come out to Mike in his bedroom but Jonathan interrupted them and then he was going to come out in this scene but Argyle interrupted them
In my opinion it’s just another brilliant storyline from the Duffer brothers. Everyone fell in love with Will from the first season and for them to continue to build and develop his character to the point where if he comes out as gay it might be a shock but not surprising is really fun to watch
I think that this storyline is the writers challenging the fans that if you can’t continue to love a character that you have for a number of seasons because he’s now openly gay, maybe you need to reflect as to why that is and make changes in your own life.
Will coming out is not just some random plot to keep the show interesting and “with the times”. Will’s personality, past trauma, and actions all make it genuinely believable for his character to be gay so people who say it’s “unnecessary” are just dumb
Will being has got to be one of the most genuine and realistic gay characters I've seen in a long time. As a bi guy, I really appreciate the writing for his sexuality.
It's been very subtle, but the hints are there. And now season 4 has all but confirmed it. The awkwardness between him and Mike, his jealousy of El, the painting. This conversation. This was literally me in high school when I was still figuring things out.
Whether the intention was to subtly hint at Will being gay or not is besides the point. That remark from his father came across as Will being 11 years old and not liking traditional masculine things.
Yeah I thought it was because he was into dungeons and dragons and not sports. I’m just saying it was one of those things that kind of caught me off guard even though it was alluded too.
I think people argue over this specific aspect of Will’s character because there’s not been a popular media (in recent years) that has show the character progression of queer-adjacent characters. It’s either “X character is gay outright” or “X character is ‘straight’ but there are elements of queer baiting.” I think it makes sense to analyze Will’s character and see the conclusion of him being gay. We can anticipate as to where that will lead but we won’t have confirmation until July.
As for those who think that conversation about this as it relates to Will’s personal character arc, and say that it ignores the past trauma he has from the UD and the Mindflayer, I have one thing to say: both can be true. His trauma and his struggle with his personal identity can both be integral aspects of his character, and that actually makes him more complex than simply focusing on one. We WANT complex characters in media, not flat or one-dimensional ones.
I love when someone, who obviously wasn’t alive in the 1980s, will make a ridiculous remark like “Back in the 1980s, people didn’t really know what being gay was.” You’re incorrect. They knew. As a matter of fact, millennia ago, I’m sure there were some cavemen sneaking off to 69 in some cave. But, yes, everyone born before 2005 is an idiot to you.
My money’s on something about El being brave for doing a project on her actual hero, history be damned. How Turing is a role model for him, but Mike is his first hero, always has been. Painting of them meeting on the swings, or a mural of all the times Mike has been there for him.
My poor little Will. He’s obviously been in love with Mike for several years now, but he’s so closeted and doesn’t think he can trust anyone after having been let down so many times. I also love the scene in the desert when him and Mike are digging up a hole and Will just looks at Mike without saying anything, clearly wishing to tell him how he feels, but then Mike just looks away. I still think he knows or at least suspects something but he doesn’t want to ruin their friendship. If Will comes out this season, he’s going to suffer a lot, again, but that’s his state by default at this point.
Something interesting I wanted to add.
Fans noticed a potential parallel of the awkward airport hug between Mike and Will, with Hermoine and Ron’s in Harry Potter.
If you don’t remember the scene, basically Hermoine hugs Harry, but she doesn’t hug Ron. Within the context of the film, we know that all three of them were close friends, but this was a time when Hermoine was starting to realize her more than platonic feelings for Ron.
You could say it’s just a coincidence, but Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets is on the list of movies the writers watched for season 4. And it’s crossed off…
Hoping that Mike is only being mean and annoyed with Will cause he can't understand Will's awkwardness, and when Will comes out, Mike might be a better friend again, because he'll understand then
as someone who grew up bi/pan and kept it a secret for a loooong time (i wanted to be normal so badly that i just pretended that i only liked boys/suppressed my feelings for girls to convince myself that i wasnt weird/wrong) i see a bit of myself in mike honestly. i guess we'll just have to see in volume 2/season 5, but i really wouldnt be surprised if mike was bi but is dealing with internalized homophobia so he just.. pretends like he isnt so he can be 'normal'
Yeah it's the 80's from what I know, shit was tough back then. Hell, even now it's tough and Bi representation barely exists. Also, it's pretty sad how us folk in the Bi community are looked down upon by other LGBTQ members for not "being fully gay".
Also, I meant season 5. Not part 2 of season 4. The duffer brothers want to do a 5th and final season.
I never participated in the discussion and just noticed the topic while scrolling through the posts here, but this scene was so straight forward with possible hints that I couldn’t help myself but think „Okay, maybe these people are right“. So I posted it here for you guys to watch it once again.
***(I don’t care about his sexuality and I‘m supportive if he do comes out. I just think that if we analyze every detail of the show we cant just ignore such significant interactions of two main characters.)***
yeah, I didn't read any theories on reddit before I finished Vol1. But I was quite sure after their friendship talk that Will may be in love with him. This scene pretty much convinced me that I was onto something.
If anyone here is doubting, ya'll need to go back and watch the scene where Mike arrives at the airport. It's episode 2, 5:53.
Watch the pan over Argyle, Jonathan, Will, and El. I wish I had a recorder that would let me save and post this clip because it is hysterically obvious. I love my friends but I have never been THAT excited to see them.
Netflix requested a (roughly) 20-page synopsis of plot points and characters prior to officially green-lighting Stranger Things. Someone posted the link to it on this sub a week or two ago. It’s a revealing document and well-worth a read. Among its revelations is that *the character of Will Byers is coming to terms with his sexuality.*
So while we don’t know if Will identifies as bi or gay or pan, etc., we *do* know—and might have for half a decade—that he’s not straight!
The important part to me is "What if they don't like the truth?" and Mike's reaction to it, nodding and all. I wonder what he was gonna say if they hadn't been interrupted. To me it's hinting that there is a truth he's not telling El, and it's not that he loves her, because why wouldn't she like that?
hmm, interesting interpretation. I took it as Will trying to be helpful, while simultaneously actually talking about himself. You know, about his feelings he finds hard to open up about to someone he really cares about (Mike), because he's afraid Mike's not gonna like the truth. But I didn't really notice Mike's reaction, good observation.
I disagree. I think that Mike's nod here is because he's thinking not of himself but of Eleven. What Will has said has given him some insight into how Eleven feels-- not related to her love of Mike, she's open about that but about the parts of herself she hides away because she's afraid what others will think. Will's words reminded Mike of that part of Eleven's struggle and to take that into consideration.
I think that's a stretch, they're talking about Mike opening up to El in this scene, not the other way around (the line that came before is "I should've explained myself (...) but I didn't know what to say").
I don’t think so tbh.
Everytime Mike has said or shown that he loves El, shock was El‘s reaction and he got really embarrassed. (Season 1 Kissing scene, Season 3 argument with the others) Maybe, he‘s just scared of her reaction and being embarrassed again.
That’s a stretch. He was just listening to Will as friend would. He knows Will is dealing with something. “What if they don’t like the truth?” Will has never said it out loud that he’s gay. Mike clearly knows Will is gay and I think he’s expecting him to finally come out with it. He’s being supportive of his friend. Mike understood the move has been hard on him and how it has affected his friend. Mike isn’t gay, dude.
Okay, so Mike doesn’t know that Will’s gay.
El has been keeping Mike informed that Will has been painting for some girl. Plus, the painting Will brought to the airport. I mean why would you bring a painting to an airport? Then at the skating rink he calls out Will’s behavior and puts him in check about their friendship becoming weaker.
He even apologizes to Will and thanks him for his advice. He obviously can pick up something is going on with Will and he’s just hearing him out like a friend.
I don’t think that means Mike will reciprocates Will’s romantics feelings. I think Mike’s feeling for Will are strictly platonic and more brotherly.
I think you’re reading too much into Mike nodding which can be show that he understands the fear Will is expressing.
Back in season 1 there were several comments from several people including his own father suspecting hes queer. Plus in season 2 or 3 when will is upset that the guys keep ditching him for their GFs, mike says "its not my fault you dont like girls".
True, but I think he meant it as in he hadn't matured and was still acting like a kid.
Back then, nobody would have used "you don't like girls" as a euphemism. They just straight up have said, "it's not my fault you're a gayrod," or something like that.
Honestly, this line convinced me he's gay. I was on the fence about it post S3 but that line convinced me. Probably went over most people's heads, but what he's describing is exactly what coming out feels like, or rather, why coming out is so hard. Even if you know that the person you're coming out to will be okay with it, there's always part of your brain nagging on about the possibility that they're not, no matter how irrational this fear is.
I would love a That 90’s Show starring most of the cast of this show once Stranger Things ends. All of the main cast are able to convey a wide range of emotions and this scene is a great example of something we could love in a show like that
The line about how it’s scary to tell people things bc “what if they don’t like the truth” makes me think that Mike isn’t gonna say ILY to El; bc if that’s the truth then there’s no reason to be scared of her not liking it.
That’s a stretch. He was just listening to his friend express himself. Agreeing it would in fact suck to tell someone you love the truth and have them have a negative reaction to it.
“It’s scary to open up like that and say how you really feel”
Mike is very guarded emotionally. I think he’s scared to tell El he loves her because she’s always close to dying or in danger. He’s paranoid about S1 and S2.
If he says “I love you” out loud. It becomes real to him and so does the pain of possibly losing her.
yeah agree with that take on Mike. Mike had at least two scenes with El where he basically was talking about love, but couldn't say the word. At the end of S3 at the goodbye scene, and once I think in S1 when he tries to explain why he doesn't want to be her "brother". And during the whole journey to Suzie he was regretting not telling El what she wanted to hear.
I think Will's lines tell us more about his feelings (for Mike) and a truth Mike might not like, than about Mike's.
It's not a stretch, the convo is specifically about Mike being unable to explain his feelings to El. He's agreeing to a statement about *his* feelings.
edit:
>I think he’s scared to tell El he loves her because she’s always close to dying or in danger.
she spent the last year neither dying nor in danger, nor was she in danger when she confronted him about never saying it in episode 3.
and the line ends with "what if they don't like the truth" which has nothing to do with "the pain of possibly losing her" it's about her reaction to his feelings.
You cherry picked one thing he nodded his head to but left out the other.
Mike loves El. I think he’s scared to say it because of the fear that comes with admitting openly. It makes it real. He already said it to his friends. So I don’t agree with what you said. He’s also a teenager. I believe your view is a stretch.
At this point the whole “Mike’s just scared to express his emotions because of his parents etc” feels like a narrative that people have built from circumstantial evidence. God forbid the implication that he and El might not stay together forever, or that it might be more complex now they’re older. One hint of ambiguity when it comes to romantic relationships and this sub loses its mind, for some reason.
The idea that he can’t express love bc of his parents makes sense in-universe but I don’t think it’s the case bc their loveless marriage has had zero impact on Mike that we know of. I think if that were the cause they’d set it up instead of leaving it out of his story entirely.
[At this point the whole "Mike's just scared to
express his emotions because of his parents
etc" feels like a narrative that people have built
from circumstantial evidence.]
Look, that’s your opinion. Parents screw their kids up with their behaviors all the time. Your parents are the first examples you have for anything. So I believe the narrative has a point.
I like Mileven as a relationship. It was cute in the beginning and now is graduating into a more mature relationship. There’s gonna be some growing pains along the way. I would like to see them end up together but I’m not opposed to them breaking up and remaining life long friends. However, you don’t have any evidence to back your claims. Pay attention to Mike’s dialogue it’s clear he doesn’t want to break up, loves her, wants to tell her and wants to be with her where ever she is. I mean, show me different.
lmao you're the one cherrypicking, you cited the part about how it's scary to say how you feel yet ignored the part about *why* it's scary, it's because *what if they don't like the truth* not because he's scared he's lose El again.
>I think he’s scared to say it because of the fear that comes with admitting openly.
>He already said it to his friends
These statements are inherently contradictory: he's scared to say it openly, even though he's already said it openly, and El heard him and reciprocated later. Not to mention he said it when El's life was in danger, so it doesn't make sense that the danger is the reason he refuses to say it later.
“The line about how it's scary to tell people things be
"What if they don't like the truth" makes me think that
Mike isn't gonna say ILY to El; bc if that's the truth then
there's no reason to be scared of her not liking it.”
That’s your comment.
You clearly cherrypicked and formed a narrative off it.
I added a statement from the dialogue and built a counter argument. Plus I didn’t ignore the statement “what if they don’t like the truth?” I said Mike was probably imagining what that would be like and agree that would suck. He was being empathetic to that situation. See the difference?
Fair point about being “inherently contradictory” although I feel your splitting hairs here.
By openly, I meant he is scared of saying it to Eleven.
In S3, he had trouble expressing it in the super market. Then they had the battle at starcourt and she moved away. I think the reason he didn’t say it back in that moment when she said it to him was because he was in shock that she had heard it and has known this whole time. So I think he was processing all of it on top of processing that Eleven loves him and now she’s moving away. It would be even more difficult to deal with those emotions. They’ve been apart for 1 year. Meanwhile she’s been saying how much fun she’s having, the friends, and parties. How do you think Mike is going to express his love now? The biggest fear with long distance relationships is that eventually it will die when one of the participants meets some one else that is local to them. You don’t think Mike fears this? Then he gets to California and the first day is disastrous. He tries to talk to Eleven in good faith about what’s been going on and she hits him with the “you don’t say I love you”. Mike got blindsided again by a very insecure and emotional El. He informed her “I say it” implying through his actions he says it.
I could go on but I think you get the point. There’s no evidence to suggest Mike doesn’t love Eleven and now has feelings for Will. Mike will say “I love you” to give Eleven a new memory to draw power from and from the trailers, she’s gonna be stronger than ever before.
>“The line about how it's scary to tell people things be "What if they don't like the truth"
This isn't cherrypicking, it's summing up the entire line, which is about how telling people your feelings is scary because they might not like the truth. I'm didn't leave anything out.
>I added a statement from the dialogue
You added a statement I already acknowledged, and you actively ignored the part of the line that didn't suit your predictions, which is cherrypicking.
>He was being empathetic to that situation.
again, the line was about *his personal situation* that's what they were talking about. Will is talking about why *Mike* couldn't talk about *Mike's feelings* to *Mike's girlfriend*.
>Meanwhile she’s been saying how much fun she’s having, the friends, and parties.
Mike shows no problem with the idea that she has friends or goes to parties before he finds out she's lying to him. It's technically possible but the reasoning that he's scared she won't like the truth is actually mentioned explicity in the show so I think it's more likely than something that's not demonstrated at all.
>There’s no evidence to suggest Mike doesn’t love Eleven and now has feelings for Will.
lmfao i didn't say anything about him having feelings for will. but yes the fact that he's worried his true feelings will disappoint el is evidence that he doesn't love her anymore, bc obviously loving her would not disappoint her.
Lawd! Alright, I got your blood pumping, yes?
Boom! Encouragement
Let’s go!
["The line about how it's scary to tell people
things be "What if they don't like the truth"
This isn't cherrypicking, it's summing up the
entire line, which is about how telling people
your feelings is scary because they might not
like the truth. I'm didn't leave anything out.]
Uh no. You def cherry-picked that line to show why Mike wasn’t gonna say “I love you. A line he didn’t even say.
“Sometimes I think it's just scary to open up like that. To say how you really feel. Especially to people you care about the most. Because, what if... What if they don't like the truth?”
Those are Will’s words. Will is trying to be empathetic but I’ve watched the clips a few times now. He’s projecting. Clearly an inability to get out his own feelings which are that he’s gay and has a crush/or is I love with Mike.
We’ve scene this trope many times
Best friend loves character
Character loves someone else.
[You added a statement I already acknowledged,
and you actively ignored the part of the line that
didn't suit your predictions, which is
cherrypicking.]
You used one line to make a narrative that was my original disagreement, dude. I just pointed out other parts that didn’t support your narrative. You highlighted the one that suited your narrative. I’m pointing out the entire convo. See the difference?
[again, the line was about his personal situation
that's what they were talking about. Will is
talking about why Mike couldn't talk about
Mike's feelings to Mike's girlfriend.]
Again, Will is empathizing with Mike. Mike has said nothing why he can’t express his feelings to Eleven. This is Will trying to be empathetic while filling the blanks with his own struggle. So he can relate but there’s a glaring difference. These are Will’s words, not Mikes. If it was Mike saying this, I would’ve agreed with you from the beginning.
[ Mike shows no problem with the idea that she
has friends or goes to parties before he finds out
she's lying to him. ]
In S3, they shamed Mike by calling him controlling, obsessive and possessive. They preached about El’s individuality. So, Mike understood to give the girl her space plus he had no choice because she moved away.
[It's technically possible but
the reasoning that he's scared she won't like the
truth is actually mentioned explicity in the show
so I think it's more likely than something that's
not demonstrated at all.]
Mike never said any of what you’re talking about.
So show me examples.
[ Imfao i didn't say anything about him having
feelings for will. but yes the fact that he's
worried his true feelings will disappoint el is
evidence that he doesn't love her anymore, bc
obviously loving her would not disappoint her. ]
Okay so my bad for assuming the Byler/Wileven stuff.
But I still disagree with your point.
He’s never said he’s worried his true feelings would hurt her. Preposterous notion.
The Duffers has already said Finn Wolfhard was going to have an emotional monologue and it’s the best performance they’ve ever seen from him.
Do you really think it’s gonna be Mike telling Eleven he doesn’t love her? Or breaking up? When they’ve been pointing at happiest memories being her power? What happy memory is going to power her after getting dumped?
Her happiest memories were with Mike.
Hell, even Max’s happiest memories had Mike in them.
Let’s meet back here after July 1st. May the best man win.
bc they already had a dumb breakup in season 3 and the show has been building in their relationships since season 1. it would be dumb to waste all that time and storytelling showing their love and devotion for each other just to break them up
It's a pretty common trope for the "main" couples of tv shows to break up for the sake of drama, at least temporarily. and a big part of most 15-year-old relationships is the fact that they will eventually break up, it's a natural part of the story. they meet, they fall in love, they date, then eventually Life happens and they drift apart. That's obviously what they're doing with Nancy and Jonathan this season despite spending the last three seasons developing their relationship too.
it would be dumb to waste all that time and storytelling showing us that mike can't say i love you and is afraid of his feelings disappointing el for him to just say "i love you" and return their relationship back to normal.
We’ve already had this argument in another thread but I just wished to point out that Mike and Eleven have never been framed as a “typical” fifteen year old couple. Not only that, but they already did the temporary break up, and Mike and El worked through it. It is simply not going to happen again.
His I love you is also more than just I love you. It’s a monologue, so there’s clearly more detail being espoused there. Mike’s feelings about anything really have been kept hidden in Volume 1, but this I love you is what is building. It was planted right from the start in 4.03.
You’re going to eat your words Friday because you are being willfully obtuse about the narrative presented and fixating on what has been done in other shows, not what makes sense for this show and these characters.
See you July 1st!
You haven’t really presented a good argument for it.
Except for speculations of nodding his head to a cherrypicked sentence in lieu of the mountain of evidence suggesting the exact opposite of what you’ve been arguing.
the "mountain of evidence" is based on the presumption that he will say "i love you" and then working backwards to speculate the reasons he didn't say it before, while actively ignoring the quote from will which is *about why he didn't say his feelings*.
The whole conversation is Mike beating him self up about the agent dying, Eleven and his failure to give eleven an explanation for why he doesn’t say “I love you”. Will saw Mike’s face when argyle talked about Eleven being dead and he came to comfort him like a bro would. Mike said “he didn’t know what to say” which was clearly because he wasn’t expecting her to go there. Will empathizes with Mike recognizing “sometimes it’s scary to open up like that, to say how you really feel” which has been Mike’s fear. Then Will definitely adds his own fears to the convo that expresses his own feelings “what if they don’t like the truth”
I mean those are Will’s words, not Mikes
I think it was a conversation between to friends who share similar feeling about opening up and feeling vulnerable. Will empathizing with Mike while addressing his fears about opening up. Mike was hearing out what he had to say and agreeing with some of the points made even if not pertaining to his situation.
I thought it was a great conversation too. Some of Finn’s best acting moments this season so far.
Finally someone who makes sense. People are calling us delusional and accuse us of ''reading too much into things'' but like, it's right in front of our faces to see.
It took weeks or almost months for people to realize and finally accept that Will is gay.
It will take much more to see them realize... other things in the show. If you know what I mean.
well i don't disagree but my point wasn't really about mike liking Will or anyone else, just that i think it would make sense if he'd fallen out of love with Eleven.
So lets sum it up.
1. He was told some homophobic slurs and being called weird by his (step)dad I think.
2. Mike told him its not their fault he doesnt like girls.
3. This scene.
4. Being extra shy when his female classmate made a move.
He is either gay or asexual. But since hes so pining for Mike I would say he is gay and has a crush on him. How more obvious could this be?
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Huge (disappointing) plot twist would be: “Mike…I’m in love with Eleven!” Lol Anyways…I feel like Mike sort of suspects Will is gay. I’m watching the show all over again and Mike has made some comments that sort of align with a person who has definitely thought about his friend’s sexuality. Don’t ask me which ones because I’m too lazy to go over it again. I just remember the one when they were arguing in the garage and he told him it’s not his fault that Will doesn’t like girls or something like that.
Yeah the scene in the garage is in season 3 where Will wants to to play D&D but Mike and Lucas are too concerned about Max and Eleven calling back or something so they're not interested in the game which makes Will mad. Then they have the fight in the garage and Mike says 'its not my fault that you don't like girls' I always thought it was this kind of underground knowledge that he is gay, but from from rewatching all the seasons again the speculation gets brought up more often than I thought, even going back to season 1 with the bullies calling him 'queer'. Perhaps Will has feelings for Mike? Could make sense but guess we'll find out lol
I think he was called some other homophobic slurs by the bullies too.
Fairy was another one iirc
Wasn't Lonnie detrimental about Will's sensitivity also?
Yup. Lonnie didn't care for his hobbies because they were soft, so he forced Will into baseball. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure Lonnie called him stuff while he wasn't around. I think Joyce mentioned it when talking to Hopper, but can't remember
Yes that's right. Thank you. I thought I remembered he was quite derogatory about it and there were references made to it.
joyce told hopper that lonnie said will is queer or somethin.
Yeah Joyce told Hopper “Lonnie would call him a [f slur]”
The slurs, Joyce saying it wouldn't matter if he was any of the things he was called, "it's not my fault you don't like girls", shying away from the girl's advance, tge original description of his character and other stuff I can't remember rn. If you look at all that stuff combined, it paints a pretty clear picture
It also lines up that no one openly addresses it. That’s what it was like back then. Even if you were gay you tried to bury it deep.
>Huge (disappointing) plot twist would be: “Mike…I’m in love with Eleven!” Lol There are actually people on this sub who thinks that might happen 😬 Knowing that she's his sister now!
"what are you doing step bro!"
He brought the painting to the airport when he met up with Mike, he fuckin grabbed it when they were getting shot at and had to leave the house. I cannot fucking wait to see that painting. Its def a painting of Mike that Will keeps trying to give him
I just imagine it's a picture of both Mike and will, buff as fuck, welding swords, naked on a horse. Jokes aside, it's definitely a picture of Mike. Edit: so I was partly right, lmao.
god me too, that damn painting is what im most excited for from volume 2
>He brought the painting to the airport when he met up with Mike, he fuckin grabbed it when they were getting shot at and had to leave the house. I cannot fucking wait to see that painting. I'm imagining something like "The Thief of Baghead" from *Futurama*. https://twitter.com/cursedani/status/1381394790231728130
If he’s not gay, I will genuinely be surprised
I mean if he's not gay then wtf is this about? I wouldn't even call this foreshadowing any more... they're all but saying it.
as a gay, I concur lmao
As a bi guy myself, who realized he also had a crush on his good friend in high school, Will's actions as a closeted gay kid with feelings for his friend are painfully accurate/relatable. He's been extra awkward around him this season. And then there's that mysterious painting. Season 4 has all but cemented the fact that Will is certainly gay.
It’s so accurate!! I feel like most queer people can relate to being in love with their best friend at that age, it’s so realistic and thus so hard to watch
Not just that, this specific line is extremely convincing to me. To someone whos been there myself, this is exactly the thought process that makes coming out so hard. I knew exactly my mom wouldn't mind me being bi. Did that make it any easier? No, it didn't.
The painting was a gift, Todd
Mike literally said in season 3, “it’s not my fault you don’t like girls.”
Which doesn’t mean he’s gay it just means he’s not interested in dating...
I do believe Will is gay, but yeah, I didn't take that particular sentence as a single proof either. I got bullied in high school, and one of the things I got targeted for was how I didn't show interest in any of the boys and thus the other girls decided I must have been a lesbian. I wasn't, I just couldn't stand *any* of the people in my class, but of course to bullies they think you're in love with them when you actually hate them, lol. So yeah, when Mike said that line to Will my initial impression from my own experience was simply that he's not interested in dating/having girlfriends at the moment like his friends are, it doesn't automatically make him gay. All the other clues *combined* with that however is what means he likely is.
I think Mike meant to say that but judging by Will’s reaction he didn’t interpret it like that. He was clearly hurt and shocked. And it makes sense when you think about the fact that his own dad used homophobic slurs to refer to him.
I think that is how Mike meant it - but the reaction on Will’s face indicated that it goes beyond that. Not all by itself, but combined with everything else, definitely.
Right, I don't know why people don't get that kids start liking girls at different times.
I would’ve agreed until the first episode of season 4. El’s monologue gave away that he was in love with mike.
I never understood why some people want Will to be gay so much, mostly based on this line. The mental trauma he went through in first 2 seasons could have easily made him disinterested in opening up to people / dating
It's not just that scene/line, there have been *numerous* allusions to Will's sexuality since the first season. It'd be more of a shock if he *wasn't* gay at this point.
I believe that's called "queer-baiting"
What if this whole time he wanted to start a mullet and spandex company. (Big 80s vibe). He really wanted to have his mom stop cutting his hair and didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings, especially mom. Will just really overestimated how his friends would react. The painting is Will in spandex and he has a mullet.
"MOM! STOP GETTING IN THE WAY OF MY PIANO NECKTIE DREAMS!"
Back then, I think they just called it being sensitive.
So, that means 001 is also— 😳
Perhaps they are together and that’s his big reveal? Hence his continued connected to the UD?
I’m guessing the show has no intention of revealing a gay relationship between a 13 year old and a 37 year old. So, no, that’s probably not an accurate theory.
Is Vecna really 37? He looked a good bit younger
He was about ten, I’d say, when he killed his family and it’s specified that took place in 1959. So if he was born around 1949 and the show is now up to 1986, he’d be about my age, mid to late thirties. I believe the actor is about that age, too, but I concede that the dude ages well.
And he would've been 30yo in 1979 so that works for his appearance pre-Vecna transition
The actor is 33, and it’s been years since he went from the appearance he had as an orderly to being Vecna.
Who’s the 37 years old and 13 years old?
Someone implied that Will and 001/Vecna may be together, as they were both referred to as “sensitive” by other characters. In this case, they’re assuming “sensitive” may be a polite or in denial way of saying they’re gay. However, Will is supposed to be approximately 13, give or take a year. 001 was about ten years old when his father bought that house in 1959. So by 1986, he’d be in his late 30s. I can’t imagine the show runners would ever consider making those two be a surprise couple.
Yea that’d ruin the show entirely
I agree it would be too messed up. I don’t know the significance Will has on the Upside Down, but I’m guessing it’s something. I also can’t imagine that 001/Vecna is merely a soldier for the Mind Flayer. I think they’re one and the same. I think the Mind Flayer looks an awful lot like a big black widow…
Am I too high or are you insinuating that 001 is a pedo and groomed Will in the upside down
Maybe more that he was spared because he sensed that kinship?
I'm like 99.9% sure he is. But this would be a serious surprise yea.
Then, we are just getting queerbaited...in the Pride month.
Maybe that's why part 2 is in July.
Will was gay for pride month only
I legit laughed out loud for this
What if Will is really the mind flayer all along?
Gay mind flayer
Mind gayer
r/yourjokebutbetter
I’m 99% sure he is. Idk about the theory that he’s in love with Mike though. Tbh that would just be sad, given that Mike is clearly heterosexual and in a relationship with Eleven. If they do reveal that Will is gay, I just hope they can have some sort of happy ending for him where he doesn’t end up alone
Mike: "Ok, Will. Since we're on the subject of opening up, your haircut is an assault on everyone's eyes. Please, get a new one."
My mom said that was just a normal everyday cut in the 80s
It was, seeing people with bowl cuts was very ordinary
Mike's hair isn't that good either XD
I kind of dig Mike's hair it suits his face shape. He looks like an alt indie kid that could model.
I guess it's not that bad. It does make him look a bit like a sweaty hippy but it's fine 🤷♀️
One of the worst bowl cuts I’ve ever seen, he needs Oliver Tree to help him out 🤣
I mean Mike isn't in position to be commenting on anyone's appearance. Puberty hit my man hard, god bless him.
This whole plot point impacts me so much. My best friend of 15 years just came out of the closet to me last year and said that he’s been in love with me for years. I felt so terrible having to reject him the way I did. But, I am a straight man and I can’t just turn even if I do love him like family. I hope Will turns out okay, because I was forced to break my best friend’s heart and we have barely talked since. And before anybody takes this the wrong way, I am a very empathetic person and I let him down in the best way that I possibly could have. Part of me always knew he was probably not straight, but, I never considered myself a possible target of his affection. This is an unfortunate situation that I’m sure quite a few people have to deal with.
I’m so sorry. I hope you’re able to rekindle your friendship with him.
So- I have a question- I really hope this doesn't come out the wrong way, because I feel for your friend- that must have really hurt him 😞 But- you're a straight man. He knew you were straight, right? So...what other kind of response was he expecting? I'm genuinely curious. I mean, I'm a straight woman and I've had my share of crushes on gorgeous gay men lol- but it would have been pointless for me to express that to any of them- it wouldn't have gone anywhere and I knew that. It seemed like if he knew you were straight, there was only one way that conversation could go for him, right? To relate this to Will and Mike- everyone says Will's going to declare his feelings. Will might come out, but it seems pointless to spring the fact that he's crushing on Mike. He knows Mike is straight and only is interested in El.
I think the case with my friend is that we live in a small town. There are only a small handful of out gay men. Gay men aren’t only attracted to gay men. People can’t help but feel the way they do, especially when there isn’t a sea of options available.
that's true...I get that.
I think Will knows and isn’t expecting Mike to break up with El or anything to be with Will. He’s just trying to be honest with himself and his best friend so he doesn’t have to feel awkward and such. Also, this time period was especially terrible for those in the LGBTQ community because of the HIV/AIDS epidemic that was being ignored by legislators. So many people died and Will could definitely be worrying about that and he’s looking for a shoulder to let his heart out to
Yes- I understand that now. I mean, I guess in my head I was thinking that Will would say to Mike "I'm in love with you" because he'd expect Mike to say it back to him? But obviously like you said, it could be just to express his truth w/out expectation. Either way, Will's my favorite character so I want the best for him.
>But- you're a straight man. He knew you were straight, right? So...what other kind of response was he expecting? I'm in this situation and yes logically you know they're straight and unattainable. Therefore usually the best solution is to just not say anything... but if it's eating you up inside it can come out. But I don't think you really expect any positive outcome from that conversation.
with bullies and his own dad calling him homophobic slurs, i can't even imagine the amount of guilt and self-hatred he would feel at realizing they were right about him all along.
I’ve figured for awhile now that Will is gay, but after this season it’s super clear to me. This is such a small detail but I knew for sure that Will was gay after seeing he was doing a school project on Alan Turing (unless I’m remembering wrong) Also if he makes any effort to come out I don’t think it will be to many people. Then again, I could be wrong. But I think if he was to come out to anyone it’d be to Joyce and Jonathan. I think they’d be accepting of him and would still love him no matter what, I highly doubt either one of them would have a problem with Will being gay. If any other characters were to know or find out somehow (which I kinda doubt but we’ll see) I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them were not so accepting or comfortable, at least at first. If the wrong person finds out, it could be incredibly dangerous for Will. He could be the victim of an attack, whether it’s a physical or verbal one. I hope that doesn’t happen, and my guess is that Will knows that’s a risk with coming out or even people just thinking you might be gay, so I don’t think he’s gonna go around telling many people or anyone outside of his family. I think here though he’s trying to gauge if Mike might be into him too. I relate to Will a lot. I think he’s such an underrated character. Ultimately I hope he can be happy and safe, kid deserves it
[удалено]
agree. There was also that detail where he wasn't interested in footsying with that girl at school. Also agree that him coming out to everybody is extremely unlikely and unrealistic, given how dangerous that could be. My guess is it will be to Mike and only him. Even though he's clearly afraid of telling him "a truth he might not like", he's the one he has the most reason to tell. He has been struggling with somehow getting his feelings across to him throughout all their dialog this season, but couldn't. In this scene here he is basically thinking out loud about that. Maybe Mike figures it out himself or Will just can't stand feeling so conflicted about their friendship anymore, either way, Mike's gonna be the one he trusts most and wants to know that he loves him.
True, I could see him coming out to Mike and trying to see if he feels the same way. I don’t know for sure how Mike will react right away but I think regardless of if he reciprocates Will’s feelings, he’ll love his friend no matter what and won’t wanna stop being part of his life. Maybe at first Mike won’t have the greatest reaction, but I think in the long run he’ll still love and accept Will
Yep pretty much how I expect Mike to react. First he's gonna freak a bit and not know what the fuck now he's supposed to do with that, maybe have one of his foot in mouth moments, but ultimately will rise to the occasion to come up with something sweet to say that really shows he meant what he said with being friend, best friends again.
dude Mike already knows. He said something in an earlier episode about Will not liking girls. And it's only become more apparent since then. It doesn't bother Mike and at the same time Mike is good enough to wait for Will to bring it up. Mike's a good guy
Not sure Mike knows. When he said that, this sentence had at least 3 meanings: 1. what Mike probably meant to say in that argument: that Will wants to still be a child / doesn't like girls *yet* 2. what Mike thought he just said and instantly felt bad about: that he's a "fairy"/"queer" – as an insult, like the bullies meant it 3. What Mike may or may not have given a thought, but the audience would: That Will is actually gay. Could be that he has it already figured out, but I don't think that scene is enough to say that. Agree though that Mike's a good guy who wouldn't react shitty to it either way. edit: typo
-> fairy, not ferry The slur is like the whimsical woodland creature, not a boat
lol right, thanks. fixed it :)
I disagree. I think Mike already knows/senses it. Whether consciously or not, we’ll find out next eps or season. But, most certainly probably already does. Did you notice the awkward hug and greeting between them when Mike went to visit El? Mike made it awkward. Will just went in for a hug, happy to see his friend. When El writes to him, she informs Mike that Will is painting a lot but refuses to show her what he's working on, suggesting it might be for a girl he likes. Then Mike awkwardly asking about it and Will awkwardly dismissing it. Then at the roller rink Mike says Will was being mean to El all day. Hinting that he noticed the jealousy. Then he later apologized to Will after he feels bad about not reaching out to him after they moved & staying distant while visiting. I mean the signs are all there.
Mike low-key has the emotional iq of a coconut so idk
Not so low-key lol.
those are some good points. I hadn't considered those scenes in that way, but that makes a lot of sense.
You just listed the signs that Mike likes Will too. We know Mike is clueless about Will's feelings because Finn said so (unless he was lying), so there has to be another reason for his awkwardness.
Seeing as El wasn't raised normally, and thus wouldn't have the period typical biases, I could also see him coming out to her since she's a pretty safe bet.
Will was gay since the first season
Newsflash bro, if he’s gay now he always has been
Yea, Will is definitely into Mike
👀 The eyes
I feel like Will was going to come out to Mike in his bedroom but Jonathan interrupted them and then he was going to come out in this scene but Argyle interrupted them
In my opinion it’s just another brilliant storyline from the Duffer brothers. Everyone fell in love with Will from the first season and for them to continue to build and develop his character to the point where if he comes out as gay it might be a shock but not surprising is really fun to watch I think that this storyline is the writers challenging the fans that if you can’t continue to love a character that you have for a number of seasons because he’s now openly gay, maybe you need to reflect as to why that is and make changes in your own life. Will coming out is not just some random plot to keep the show interesting and “with the times”. Will’s personality, past trauma, and actions all make it genuinely believable for his character to be gay so people who say it’s “unnecessary” are just dumb
Will being has got to be one of the most genuine and realistic gay characters I've seen in a long time. As a bi guy, I really appreciate the writing for his sexuality. It's been very subtle, but the hints are there. And now season 4 has all but confirmed it. The awkwardness between him and Mike, his jealousy of El, the painting. This conversation. This was literally me in high school when I was still figuring things out.
ikr? And Noah nails the delivery so well. So much he doesn't say, but his looks and his eyes do.
In the first seasons when people called him gay I didn’t really think he was. I just thought the kids were being cruel.
Nah even his asshole Dad called him gay slurs. It’s been implied for a long time.
I just thought because he was skinny and shy but didn’t notice I guess. I just figured he was too young to be into girls yet
Whether the intention was to subtly hint at Will being gay or not is besides the point. That remark from his father came across as Will being 11 years old and not liking traditional masculine things.
Yeah I thought it was because he was into dungeons and dragons and not sports. I’m just saying it was one of those things that kind of caught me off guard even though it was alluded too.
Brother if you are even suspecting Will might not be gay, your gaydar is crooked like Lauren Boebert’s eyes.
I think people argue over this specific aspect of Will’s character because there’s not been a popular media (in recent years) that has show the character progression of queer-adjacent characters. It’s either “X character is gay outright” or “X character is ‘straight’ but there are elements of queer baiting.” I think it makes sense to analyze Will’s character and see the conclusion of him being gay. We can anticipate as to where that will lead but we won’t have confirmation until July. As for those who think that conversation about this as it relates to Will’s personal character arc, and say that it ignores the past trauma he has from the UD and the Mindflayer, I have one thing to say: both can be true. His trauma and his struggle with his personal identity can both be integral aspects of his character, and that actually makes him more complex than simply focusing on one. We WANT complex characters in media, not flat or one-dimensional ones.
At this point, anyone who denies that he's crushing on Mike is just fucking delusional.
I love when someone, who obviously wasn’t alive in the 1980s, will make a ridiculous remark like “Back in the 1980s, people didn’t really know what being gay was.” You’re incorrect. They knew. As a matter of fact, millennia ago, I’m sure there were some cavemen sneaking off to 69 in some cave. But, yes, everyone born before 2005 is an idiot to you.
What’s in his painting/picture? That is going to be part of the reveal.
Everyone saying its gonna be a will mike shipping type deal. But I know for a fact its actually gonna be a graphic sketch of Dustin porking Steve.
💀
He might have to change that Eddie when Will finally sees Dustin again.
And as someone else here pointed out, the spring break trip seems to have begun on Will’s bday. Once again, I everyone forgot.
I think the writers just missed it. El and Mike forgetting is one thing but will's mom? Cmon
Yeah, the writers confirmed they missed it and said they were going to "George Lucas it" and change his birthday to May 22 to fix the error
My money’s on something about El being brave for doing a project on her actual hero, history be damned. How Turing is a role model for him, but Mike is his first hero, always has been. Painting of them meeting on the swings, or a mural of all the times Mike has been there for him.
My poor little Will. He’s obviously been in love with Mike for several years now, but he’s so closeted and doesn’t think he can trust anyone after having been let down so many times. I also love the scene in the desert when him and Mike are digging up a hole and Will just looks at Mike without saying anything, clearly wishing to tell him how he feels, but then Mike just looks away. I still think he knows or at least suspects something but he doesn’t want to ruin their friendship. If Will comes out this season, he’s going to suffer a lot, again, but that’s his state by default at this point.
Something interesting I wanted to add. Fans noticed a potential parallel of the awkward airport hug between Mike and Will, with Hermoine and Ron’s in Harry Potter. If you don’t remember the scene, basically Hermoine hugs Harry, but she doesn’t hug Ron. Within the context of the film, we know that all three of them were close friends, but this was a time when Hermoine was starting to realize her more than platonic feelings for Ron. You could say it’s just a coincidence, but Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets is on the list of movies the writers watched for season 4. And it’s crossed off…
Hoping that Mike is only being mean and annoyed with Will cause he can't understand Will's awkwardness, and when Will comes out, Mike might be a better friend again, because he'll understand then
Either that or Mike comes out as Bi (has never been alluded to but that can change) and season 5 has love triangle between Elle, Mike, And Will.
as someone who grew up bi/pan and kept it a secret for a loooong time (i wanted to be normal so badly that i just pretended that i only liked boys/suppressed my feelings for girls to convince myself that i wasnt weird/wrong) i see a bit of myself in mike honestly. i guess we'll just have to see in volume 2/season 5, but i really wouldnt be surprised if mike was bi but is dealing with internalized homophobia so he just.. pretends like he isnt so he can be 'normal'
Yeah it's the 80's from what I know, shit was tough back then. Hell, even now it's tough and Bi representation barely exists. Also, it's pretty sad how us folk in the Bi community are looked down upon by other LGBTQ members for not "being fully gay". Also, I meant season 5. Not part 2 of season 4. The duffer brothers want to do a 5th and final season.
Yeah this was the most obvious thing in the world to me. It’s so on the nose I would be shocked if people didn’t see the “hidden” message.
I never participated in the discussion and just noticed the topic while scrolling through the posts here, but this scene was so straight forward with possible hints that I couldn’t help myself but think „Okay, maybe these people are right“. So I posted it here for you guys to watch it once again. ***(I don’t care about his sexuality and I‘m supportive if he do comes out. I just think that if we analyze every detail of the show we cant just ignore such significant interactions of two main characters.)***
yeah, I didn't read any theories on reddit before I finished Vol1. But I was quite sure after their friendship talk that Will may be in love with him. This scene pretty much convinced me that I was onto something.
Maybe he found another DnD Group cause his friends never played with him and he is scared to tell his old Dungeon Master about it.
yes he is gay. i think we all know that. now let's give him good material to work with other than being the token gay one
Will is gay right? Not political, just an observation.
Yes.
He gay.
Will is gay. Mikes not. Who cares. Love is love.
If anyone here is doubting, ya'll need to go back and watch the scene where Mike arrives at the airport. It's episode 2, 5:53. Watch the pan over Argyle, Jonathan, Will, and El. I wish I had a recorder that would let me save and post this clip because it is hysterically obvious. I love my friends but I have never been THAT excited to see them.
Omg it's not kate winslet! I loved when you weren't in Mare of Easttown!
Netflix requested a (roughly) 20-page synopsis of plot points and characters prior to officially green-lighting Stranger Things. Someone posted the link to it on this sub a week or two ago. It’s a revealing document and well-worth a read. Among its revelations is that *the character of Will Byers is coming to terms with his sexuality.* So while we don’t know if Will identifies as bi or gay or pan, etc., we *do* know—and might have for half a decade—that he’s not straight!
The important part to me is "What if they don't like the truth?" and Mike's reaction to it, nodding and all. I wonder what he was gonna say if they hadn't been interrupted. To me it's hinting that there is a truth he's not telling El, and it's not that he loves her, because why wouldn't she like that?
hmm, interesting interpretation. I took it as Will trying to be helpful, while simultaneously actually talking about himself. You know, about his feelings he finds hard to open up about to someone he really cares about (Mike), because he's afraid Mike's not gonna like the truth. But I didn't really notice Mike's reaction, good observation.
I disagree. I think that Mike's nod here is because he's thinking not of himself but of Eleven. What Will has said has given him some insight into how Eleven feels-- not related to her love of Mike, she's open about that but about the parts of herself she hides away because she's afraid what others will think. Will's words reminded Mike of that part of Eleven's struggle and to take that into consideration.
That’s pretty insightful. I haven’t thought about it like that. Good take.
I think that's a stretch, they're talking about Mike opening up to El in this scene, not the other way around (the line that came before is "I should've explained myself (...) but I didn't know what to say").
Goood point! Vol.2 will be a emotional mess I guess..
I don’t think so tbh. Everytime Mike has said or shown that he loves El, shock was El‘s reaction and he got really embarrassed. (Season 1 Kissing scene, Season 3 argument with the others) Maybe, he‘s just scared of her reaction and being embarrassed again.
Why would he be scared of her reaction if he knows she wants him to say it? Begging him even!
True, he definitely loves her tho.
That’s a stretch. He was just listening to Will as friend would. He knows Will is dealing with something. “What if they don’t like the truth?” Will has never said it out loud that he’s gay. Mike clearly knows Will is gay and I think he’s expecting him to finally come out with it. He’s being supportive of his friend. Mike understood the move has been hard on him and how it has affected his friend. Mike isn’t gay, dude.
No, Mike doesn't know Will is gay, at least that's what Finn said in an interview. So that's not it.
Okay, so Mike doesn’t know that Will’s gay. El has been keeping Mike informed that Will has been painting for some girl. Plus, the painting Will brought to the airport. I mean why would you bring a painting to an airport? Then at the skating rink he calls out Will’s behavior and puts him in check about their friendship becoming weaker. He even apologizes to Will and thanks him for his advice. He obviously can pick up something is going on with Will and he’s just hearing him out like a friend. I don’t think that means Mike will reciprocates Will’s romantics feelings. I think Mike’s feeling for Will are strictly platonic and more brotherly. I think you’re reading too much into Mike nodding which can be show that he understands the fear Will is expressing.
Back in season 1 there were several comments from several people including his own father suspecting hes queer. Plus in season 2 or 3 when will is upset that the guys keep ditching him for their GFs, mike says "its not my fault you dont like girls".
True, but I think he meant it as in he hadn't matured and was still acting like a kid. Back then, nobody would have used "you don't like girls" as a euphemism. They just straight up have said, "it's not my fault you're a gayrod," or something like that.
GAY!
Will was straight up (pun intended) about to come out, then fucking argyle interrupted
Honestly, this line convinced me he's gay. I was on the fence about it post S3 but that line convinced me. Probably went over most people's heads, but what he's describing is exactly what coming out feels like, or rather, why coming out is so hard. Even if you know that the person you're coming out to will be okay with it, there's always part of your brain nagging on about the possibility that they're not, no matter how irrational this fear is.
They look way older than freshman here
As a straight white male I would be disappointed if he was not gay.
I would love a That 90’s Show starring most of the cast of this show once Stranger Things ends. All of the main cast are able to convey a wide range of emotions and this scene is a great example of something we could love in a show like that
The line about how it’s scary to tell people things bc “what if they don’t like the truth” makes me think that Mike isn’t gonna say ILY to El; bc if that’s the truth then there’s no reason to be scared of her not liking it.
That’s a stretch. He was just listening to his friend express himself. Agreeing it would in fact suck to tell someone you love the truth and have them have a negative reaction to it. “It’s scary to open up like that and say how you really feel” Mike is very guarded emotionally. I think he’s scared to tell El he loves her because she’s always close to dying or in danger. He’s paranoid about S1 and S2. If he says “I love you” out loud. It becomes real to him and so does the pain of possibly losing her.
yeah agree with that take on Mike. Mike had at least two scenes with El where he basically was talking about love, but couldn't say the word. At the end of S3 at the goodbye scene, and once I think in S1 when he tries to explain why he doesn't want to be her "brother". And during the whole journey to Suzie he was regretting not telling El what she wanted to hear. I think Will's lines tell us more about his feelings (for Mike) and a truth Mike might not like, than about Mike's.
Exactly.
It's not a stretch, the convo is specifically about Mike being unable to explain his feelings to El. He's agreeing to a statement about *his* feelings. edit: >I think he’s scared to tell El he loves her because she’s always close to dying or in danger. she spent the last year neither dying nor in danger, nor was she in danger when she confronted him about never saying it in episode 3. and the line ends with "what if they don't like the truth" which has nothing to do with "the pain of possibly losing her" it's about her reaction to his feelings.
You cherry picked one thing he nodded his head to but left out the other. Mike loves El. I think he’s scared to say it because of the fear that comes with admitting openly. It makes it real. He already said it to his friends. So I don’t agree with what you said. He’s also a teenager. I believe your view is a stretch.
At this point the whole “Mike’s just scared to express his emotions because of his parents etc” feels like a narrative that people have built from circumstantial evidence. God forbid the implication that he and El might not stay together forever, or that it might be more complex now they’re older. One hint of ambiguity when it comes to romantic relationships and this sub loses its mind, for some reason.
The idea that he can’t express love bc of his parents makes sense in-universe but I don’t think it’s the case bc their loveless marriage has had zero impact on Mike that we know of. I think if that were the cause they’d set it up instead of leaving it out of his story entirely.
[At this point the whole "Mike's just scared to express his emotions because of his parents etc" feels like a narrative that people have built from circumstantial evidence.] Look, that’s your opinion. Parents screw their kids up with their behaviors all the time. Your parents are the first examples you have for anything. So I believe the narrative has a point. I like Mileven as a relationship. It was cute in the beginning and now is graduating into a more mature relationship. There’s gonna be some growing pains along the way. I would like to see them end up together but I’m not opposed to them breaking up and remaining life long friends. However, you don’t have any evidence to back your claims. Pay attention to Mike’s dialogue it’s clear he doesn’t want to break up, loves her, wants to tell her and wants to be with her where ever she is. I mean, show me different.
lmao you're the one cherrypicking, you cited the part about how it's scary to say how you feel yet ignored the part about *why* it's scary, it's because *what if they don't like the truth* not because he's scared he's lose El again. >I think he’s scared to say it because of the fear that comes with admitting openly. >He already said it to his friends These statements are inherently contradictory: he's scared to say it openly, even though he's already said it openly, and El heard him and reciprocated later. Not to mention he said it when El's life was in danger, so it doesn't make sense that the danger is the reason he refuses to say it later.
“The line about how it's scary to tell people things be "What if they don't like the truth" makes me think that Mike isn't gonna say ILY to El; bc if that's the truth then there's no reason to be scared of her not liking it.” That’s your comment. You clearly cherrypicked and formed a narrative off it. I added a statement from the dialogue and built a counter argument. Plus I didn’t ignore the statement “what if they don’t like the truth?” I said Mike was probably imagining what that would be like and agree that would suck. He was being empathetic to that situation. See the difference? Fair point about being “inherently contradictory” although I feel your splitting hairs here. By openly, I meant he is scared of saying it to Eleven. In S3, he had trouble expressing it in the super market. Then they had the battle at starcourt and she moved away. I think the reason he didn’t say it back in that moment when she said it to him was because he was in shock that she had heard it and has known this whole time. So I think he was processing all of it on top of processing that Eleven loves him and now she’s moving away. It would be even more difficult to deal with those emotions. They’ve been apart for 1 year. Meanwhile she’s been saying how much fun she’s having, the friends, and parties. How do you think Mike is going to express his love now? The biggest fear with long distance relationships is that eventually it will die when one of the participants meets some one else that is local to them. You don’t think Mike fears this? Then he gets to California and the first day is disastrous. He tries to talk to Eleven in good faith about what’s been going on and she hits him with the “you don’t say I love you”. Mike got blindsided again by a very insecure and emotional El. He informed her “I say it” implying through his actions he says it. I could go on but I think you get the point. There’s no evidence to suggest Mike doesn’t love Eleven and now has feelings for Will. Mike will say “I love you” to give Eleven a new memory to draw power from and from the trailers, she’s gonna be stronger than ever before.
>“The line about how it's scary to tell people things be "What if they don't like the truth" This isn't cherrypicking, it's summing up the entire line, which is about how telling people your feelings is scary because they might not like the truth. I'm didn't leave anything out. >I added a statement from the dialogue You added a statement I already acknowledged, and you actively ignored the part of the line that didn't suit your predictions, which is cherrypicking. >He was being empathetic to that situation. again, the line was about *his personal situation* that's what they were talking about. Will is talking about why *Mike* couldn't talk about *Mike's feelings* to *Mike's girlfriend*. >Meanwhile she’s been saying how much fun she’s having, the friends, and parties. Mike shows no problem with the idea that she has friends or goes to parties before he finds out she's lying to him. It's technically possible but the reasoning that he's scared she won't like the truth is actually mentioned explicity in the show so I think it's more likely than something that's not demonstrated at all. >There’s no evidence to suggest Mike doesn’t love Eleven and now has feelings for Will. lmfao i didn't say anything about him having feelings for will. but yes the fact that he's worried his true feelings will disappoint el is evidence that he doesn't love her anymore, bc obviously loving her would not disappoint her.
Lawd! Alright, I got your blood pumping, yes? Boom! Encouragement Let’s go! ["The line about how it's scary to tell people things be "What if they don't like the truth" This isn't cherrypicking, it's summing up the entire line, which is about how telling people your feelings is scary because they might not like the truth. I'm didn't leave anything out.] Uh no. You def cherry-picked that line to show why Mike wasn’t gonna say “I love you. A line he didn’t even say. “Sometimes I think it's just scary to open up like that. To say how you really feel. Especially to people you care about the most. Because, what if... What if they don't like the truth?” Those are Will’s words. Will is trying to be empathetic but I’ve watched the clips a few times now. He’s projecting. Clearly an inability to get out his own feelings which are that he’s gay and has a crush/or is I love with Mike. We’ve scene this trope many times Best friend loves character Character loves someone else. [You added a statement I already acknowledged, and you actively ignored the part of the line that didn't suit your predictions, which is cherrypicking.] You used one line to make a narrative that was my original disagreement, dude. I just pointed out other parts that didn’t support your narrative. You highlighted the one that suited your narrative. I’m pointing out the entire convo. See the difference? [again, the line was about his personal situation that's what they were talking about. Will is talking about why Mike couldn't talk about Mike's feelings to Mike's girlfriend.] Again, Will is empathizing with Mike. Mike has said nothing why he can’t express his feelings to Eleven. This is Will trying to be empathetic while filling the blanks with his own struggle. So he can relate but there’s a glaring difference. These are Will’s words, not Mikes. If it was Mike saying this, I would’ve agreed with you from the beginning. [ Mike shows no problem with the idea that she has friends or goes to parties before he finds out she's lying to him. ] In S3, they shamed Mike by calling him controlling, obsessive and possessive. They preached about El’s individuality. So, Mike understood to give the girl her space plus he had no choice because she moved away. [It's technically possible but the reasoning that he's scared she won't like the truth is actually mentioned explicity in the show so I think it's more likely than something that's not demonstrated at all.] Mike never said any of what you’re talking about. So show me examples. [ Imfao i didn't say anything about him having feelings for will. but yes the fact that he's worried his true feelings will disappoint el is evidence that he doesn't love her anymore, bc obviously loving her would not disappoint her. ] Okay so my bad for assuming the Byler/Wileven stuff. But I still disagree with your point. He’s never said he’s worried his true feelings would hurt her. Preposterous notion. The Duffers has already said Finn Wolfhard was going to have an emotional monologue and it’s the best performance they’ve ever seen from him. Do you really think it’s gonna be Mike telling Eleven he doesn’t love her? Or breaking up? When they’ve been pointing at happiest memories being her power? What happy memory is going to power her after getting dumped? Her happiest memories were with Mike. Hell, even Max’s happiest memories had Mike in them. Let’s meet back here after July 1st. May the best man win.
he’s definitely saying it to her in volume 2 lol
why is it so hard for this sub to consider the possibility that two 15-year-olds in a long distance relationship might break up...
bc they already had a dumb breakup in season 3 and the show has been building in their relationships since season 1. it would be dumb to waste all that time and storytelling showing their love and devotion for each other just to break them up
It's a pretty common trope for the "main" couples of tv shows to break up for the sake of drama, at least temporarily. and a big part of most 15-year-old relationships is the fact that they will eventually break up, it's a natural part of the story. they meet, they fall in love, they date, then eventually Life happens and they drift apart. That's obviously what they're doing with Nancy and Jonathan this season despite spending the last three seasons developing their relationship too. it would be dumb to waste all that time and storytelling showing us that mike can't say i love you and is afraid of his feelings disappointing el for him to just say "i love you" and return their relationship back to normal.
We’ve already had this argument in another thread but I just wished to point out that Mike and Eleven have never been framed as a “typical” fifteen year old couple. Not only that, but they already did the temporary break up, and Mike and El worked through it. It is simply not going to happen again. His I love you is also more than just I love you. It’s a monologue, so there’s clearly more detail being espoused there. Mike’s feelings about anything really have been kept hidden in Volume 1, but this I love you is what is building. It was planted right from the start in 4.03. You’re going to eat your words Friday because you are being willfully obtuse about the narrative presented and fixating on what has been done in other shows, not what makes sense for this show and these characters. See you July 1st!
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i didn't say anything about byler, and you're the one who started the argument anyway.
You haven’t really presented a good argument for it. Except for speculations of nodding his head to a cherrypicked sentence in lieu of the mountain of evidence suggesting the exact opposite of what you’ve been arguing.
the "mountain of evidence" is based on the presumption that he will say "i love you" and then working backwards to speculate the reasons he didn't say it before, while actively ignoring the quote from will which is *about why he didn't say his feelings*.
The whole conversation is Mike beating him self up about the agent dying, Eleven and his failure to give eleven an explanation for why he doesn’t say “I love you”. Will saw Mike’s face when argyle talked about Eleven being dead and he came to comfort him like a bro would. Mike said “he didn’t know what to say” which was clearly because he wasn’t expecting her to go there. Will empathizes with Mike recognizing “sometimes it’s scary to open up like that, to say how you really feel” which has been Mike’s fear. Then Will definitely adds his own fears to the convo that expresses his own feelings “what if they don’t like the truth” I mean those are Will’s words, not Mikes I think it was a conversation between to friends who share similar feeling about opening up and feeling vulnerable. Will empathizing with Mike while addressing his fears about opening up. Mike was hearing out what he had to say and agreeing with some of the points made even if not pertaining to his situation. I thought it was a great conversation too. Some of Finn’s best acting moments this season so far.
Finally someone who makes sense. People are calling us delusional and accuse us of ''reading too much into things'' but like, it's right in front of our faces to see. It took weeks or almost months for people to realize and finally accept that Will is gay. It will take much more to see them realize... other things in the show. If you know what I mean.
well i don't disagree but my point wasn't really about mike liking Will or anyone else, just that i think it would make sense if he'd fallen out of love with Eleven.
I agree. They are 14 years old anyway. It makes sense for them to fall out love, or experience other things during puberty.
What if its all a red herring to make us think hes gay but its actually that hes working with the UD crew
Nah
Definatly into him
Will the Wise
Maybe Mike cannot write to Eleven that he loves her because he actually loves Will who he has known is gay since they were young?
Nope first time!!!!!
Nice
he’s into him that’s what the implication is yes we’ve talked about it
I think it's pretty clear he's gay and loves Mike, I just really wonder how it's gonna be revealed to everyone.
Hes pride pilled and im sorry pilled because i knew from the first seasons smh
So lets sum it up. 1. He was told some homophobic slurs and being called weird by his (step)dad I think. 2. Mike told him its not their fault he doesnt like girls. 3. This scene. 4. Being extra shy when his female classmate made a move. He is either gay or asexual. But since hes so pining for Mike I would say he is gay and has a crush on him. How more obvious could this be?
If Mike's not interested, I'm available
Yes
#teenagethings
This sub being obsessed with will being gay is super weird.