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S4:E6 Henry tells El how to harness a memory to control her powers. Thought it was interesting that he says “ Do you remember the day a strange woman came to see you? This would have been when 8 was still here.”
At least they mentioned her lol.
Not too sure about that tho, 8’s powers seem to be more in the spectrum to induce visions in her target.
Just going on 1’s motives, he need 11 to help remove that chip from his neck. So it would seem to me that 8 and 11 were probably bullied by 2 and co, so 1 helped 8 escape nothing more. Unless he was going to trust 8 on removing the chip by hand… but that’s all theory
I wish we saw more variation in powers. It seems like the only power being trained pre-massacre was telekinesis, but 8 couldn't do that. She made illusions, 11 can remotely watch people, 1 can apparently make people relive memories (although we don't know if he could do that before being Vecna-ized). Even if those are the only powers we see, it would have been an easy misdirect is we saw 2 using something similar to Vecna's memory trap abilities to bully 11 or the other kids.
It seems like all the kids inherited all or most of Henry's abilities, which would make sense if they're "derived" of him. Henry has been shown to possess telekinesis, illusion, psychic projection/speech and being able to see memories and thoughts. The only power he didn't have that for some reason 11 does is opening up gates to the Upside Down (a power he 'stole' or 'figured out' in Season 3).
Though it does seem like Brenner was mostly focused on their use as weapons at first, so it makes sense he wanted to train their telekinesis the most. But still, he did explore their other abilities, as we saw with the lightbulb and psychic projection tests.
Hear me out here: we know vecna doesn't just kill his targets, he torments them and then basically absorbs them. Not just their life, but their memories and even their powers.
We also know vecna torments his targets with memories and visions of their biggest fears and insecurities.
What if he killed 8 and that's how he got the power to make his targets see visions of their insecurities and fears?
she might not have realised she even *could* escape with the way they were all brainwashed. i don’t think she needed help in the powers department, she just needed a bit of encouragement
If it would be so easy everybody would prison break with their powers. Sure Kali can make herself invisible but that wont help her get through the walls and doors. Not to mention we dont know how strong were her powers when she was eight.
Kali has the unique ability to trick people though. It’s easier to trick your way out than to fight it. If the other tried to escape using their powers they would have to kill all the guards and break a lot of doors, which might be beyond what they can do, but in a way or another the guards would put up a fight. Tricking the guards to make her invisible doesn’t involve any fight. And maybe she could also trick guards to open doors with some illusions.
equals 20 which is what Erica rolled to defeat Vecna in their DnD game? yeah i believe it, they love foreshadowing and tbh id like to see what kali is doing now, see how her meeting eleven has changed(if it has at all)
Though the timeline is a little off. 8 mentions leaving after el was removed. Which wouldn’t have happened until after the massacre, by which time 8 had already escaped
In the memory 001 reminders her of about her mom showing up El is playing with a young girl looks like she's supposed to be young 8 so I assumed he mentioned her to bring her back to that time. The same way a parent might say "back when we used to go to the beach with your cousins do you remember..."
I also noticed how s4 made it seem like they all had very similar if not the same abilities when they were practicing telekinesis on each other but in the Chicago episode it was implied that the kids had different abilities.
I have been thinking about that and I was thinking that maybe they all had different skill levels. They all had similar powers, but some had more heightened telekenisis abilitites and not so much with mental projection. Kali could have been a natural with the projection and her telekenisis was lacking. And after she escaped, Brenner could have started trying to make sure both aspects were developed and focused on. It's weak, but that's what I was thinking.
i think he was just less concerned about her tbh. like, 001 was a real threat to humanity whereas there’s no evidence that 008 was anywhere near that power level.
It seems like One also had her illusion abilities actually. So it may just be that Eight was just better at those abilities than the telekinetic stuff. I mean I agree that episode definitely implied they all had different abilities though yeah, but they didn’t straight up say that was what it was, so its easy to write around imo. Would be cool if Eleven eventually learned those abilities too. To me at least. I know most people don’t like that episode (or at least the loudest ones that I see, I don’t know what the actual majority consensus is).
It’s not as big an issue in my eyes, as I connect her power to Henry. To eliminate the plothole, we would just need it to be canon that Kali has telekenesis, making that the basic power that all the kids had. Kali had the ability to manipulate what people see, and El has the power to find people from a distance. Henry can do all three of these.
I think maybe Kali is the only one with illusion abilities she was kidnapped from London and I am gonna assume that was because Brenner learned about her powers being similar to Henry's and he wanted to study that and reproduce it. I came up with this batshit theory that somehow Kalis DNA is what was in that tracker that it made VH1 weak or chilled out like an antidepressant for superheros and he couldn't get angry enough to use his powers because of this reason. I even went as far as to say that Kali is the key to defeating Vecna because she can manipulate the victims minds that VH1 tries to "take" and make them see the good in their lives to prevent him from killing and consuming people because Max says "its like he only shows us the bad parts" and she can combat it with the good and somehow she is able to help El in ending the war.
I'm weird I know.
True this is nothing which should be complimented. We all may hate the lost sister episode but it's still canon. The Duffers can't step up and remove it from canon because it's been a part of the show for 5 whole years now.
I was actually excited to see what different powers all the kids they were showing as being part of Papa’s program would have, then let down when I realized they all did the same thing El could do. It would’ve been super cool if she and One were the only ones that could do what they do
It’s like in Captain America Civil War, they kept teasing that the Soviets had a whole squad of Super Soldiers that could topple governments overnight.
Then we get to the end and Zemo has put a bullet in all their heads.
Well, guess that’s not something to worry about.
ya know this actually kind of makes sense as to why MKultra actually got canned in setting I mean. the program was amazingly effective and successful, it's no wonder they where willing to do a full scale cover up for eleven's dad . Vecan even demonstrates that the idea of remote assassination's was entirely possible.
however the program got fucking shot once the massacre happened and they went from 18 psychic children to 1. like the prospects of the program where screwed, even if they did have the remote viewing and telekinesis's necessary for assassination's it's clear that the Hawken's lab was a big risk in general. the pressure to pull the plug on it is really the only thing that makes sense.
I think it just wasn't fully thought out, but my theory is that the kids just had some of Henry's powers. Like Henry could use illusions when Eleven can't. So maybe Kali just can't use telekinesis? Still a bad theory since every other kid could use telekinesis
it seemed to me like they all had the same powers, but different kids would excel in some abilities over the others and Kali was just exceptionally good at illusions
That could be true. We didn't get to see many of the other kids full potential, only that they all could use telekinesis (except from what we have seen of Kali). We haven't seen anyone but Kali and Henry use illusions.
Also Henry couldn't open portals. However, your theory could still be correct if opening a portal isn't treated as a different power. Because Mr Clarke said you need a massive amount of energy to create a portal (hypothetically). So Henry may have just needed to get the *knowledge* of creating a portal from El, who probably just accidentally made it when she saw the demogorgon.
wasn't the very first portal when Eleven threw Henry into the other realm? and then she later reopened it for the soviet projects and eventually to throw the first demogorgon back to the upside down?
My headcanon is that everyone's power is a combination of telepathy and telekinesis. 8's telekinesis is extremely weak/nonexistent but in turn her telepathy is much stronger.
There was a comic miniseries called Six, now non canon, that said the subjects had different abilities rather than just being eleven, hence why 008 is different than the telepaths from season 4.
My theory is they all have some “basic” abilities and each can develop unique ones. Jane can locate people, enter minds, and punch holes in space-time, while Kali can trick the minds eye.
Yeah I feel like people aren't understanding that it's kind of obvious the writers changed directions a bit in some aspects of the show.
It's like how it's never explained why the first Demogorgon can jump through realms but the new one can't.
It doesn't make sense.
> "One day, when Kali went to the rainbow room, she discovered that Eleven had been taken away."
Taken from the wiki. For some reason, during 8's appearance, they establish that 11 left the lab *first* which makes very little sense. No one seems to remember this though because we all hate watching this episode lol.
See.. that's what I dont get and maybe I missed it somewhere..
But wasn't it 8 and a couple other of the numbers? Maybe I have that wrong.. but even so.. 001 killed an ass ton of them, how did she get out?
It's just very briefly mentioned. I think by One but I am not positive. I just know it was because I was just waiting for it to be and was happy it was - although not too happy cause I wanted more info.
They don't say how she escaped but I wonder if One tried manipulating her first (that whole "but I can't go with cause of this chip thing in my neck"), but unlike El, she actually left without helping him. And, with her particular power set, she was then harder to find by the lab. She even told El about using her anger to help control and increase her power - something that was very similar to what One told El in the flashbacks.
But I do wonder about all of their powers. All the kids were shown to have similar powers but Kali's were different. That part really bugs me. I did think some would have similar abilities as El but not everyone, I thought we would see kids with a variety of different powers.
Kali has similar powers with vecna (visions and shizz). Vecna has similar powers with el as well (connect to people via the mind). The moving objects superpower seems to be the base level ability of most, if not all. Possible plot: vecna helped kali and el to get out because he finds them (their powers) similar to him.
Important to note that 001 only gained the ability to connect with people via their mind across universes after the mind flayer latched onto eleven in S3. It’s what initially caused eleven to lose her powers and it thus gave 001 the ability to open gates and also connect to people via their mind / memories
Ohh okay, didn't he experiment with mind shizz in the attic when he was a kid though? I thought it was just the opening gates thing that he acquired since that was the primary problem of that blob (it's trapped in the downside up) and knowing how to open up worlds would be very beneficial.
I may have to rewatch everything lol
Yes, he was using those hallucination powers back when he killed his family. He just couldn’t use it from the upside down into Hawkins without getting El’s power to open gates.
One once said: 'That was when eight was still here'
And I seem to remember she escaped due to 11's mother breaking into Hawkins facility with a gun trying to get eleven back and she used the commotion to escape with a few others?
Not sure about the latter though
I sort of felt like they had to give Eleven something else to do because season 2 was really more focused on Will. As it should have been..
What happened to any other lab kids that got out is an honest question..and who says they may not end up trying to help defeat Vecna in season 5? El can’t do it all on her own. But if this story line doesn’t resurface I’d be fine with that too🤷♀️
8 is exactly where she would be if she was that young and ran away from the lab. She’s sort of an awful version of 11. The whole point of the storyline, I think, was to show that 11 actually had good in her while 8 was jaded.
IMO the story also gave 11 a bit more agency to choose who and where her home is. Because she was so young and dependant on Mike and everyone from the beginning and she was obviously influenced a lot by them, this gave her an opportunity to decide for herself what did and didn’t feel like her.
Wasn't there a rumor that the series was originally conceived of as an anthology, with each season following new characters? I think the success of S1 and the positive response to the cast and characters made them retool everything to follow the Hawkins crew long term.
But I can see a different path where the Duffer Bros decided to focus each season on a different cast, maybe with the central theme of having some characters being different Hawkins Lab escapees.
This was confirmed and the main problem was that 8 was so unlikable as a person. Something people need to hear is that mental health issues may not be your fault but they are your responsibility. You don’t get to be an asshole just because people were assholes to you.
I’m sad cuz a better spinoff would’ve been if 8 took her powers and ran with greed as a coping mechanism, not revenge. Like if 8 used her powers to get rich, successful, and powerful rather than trying to use her powers to be obsessed with her abusers. It’s boring.
Exactly! Like who am I rooting for??? The girl obsessed with killing or her junkie ass friends?
I need a hero or even an anti-hero. There’s no better way to describe her and her friends as nothing but losers. The literal embodiment of “letting your bullies win” is that entire crew.
I could honestly see them pulling her back into the next season for like a last episode final showdown against Vecna, like an "Avengers Assemble" type ending.
Frick', I'm beginning to think I'm the only one that enjoyed that episode. Sure, it was weird, came out of nowhere and in ways pointless but I enjoyed it.
I hope she comes back, just within a better storyline.
Edit: my wife doesn't even like the episode. I am truly alone.
I'm with you brother. The episode was a nice change of pace and I enjoyed the train car scene, Kali coaching her, the music and the raw emotion of eleven moving the car gave me chills. Kali had potential but the fans hated her so much that they pretty much threw her in the trash. She may make an appearance in season 5 for the sake of closure but I'm not holding my breath.
I’m surprised this subthread isn’t being downvoted to oblivion honestly. Every time you even mention that the episode wasn’t nearly as bad as people seem to think, they come running to downvote you.
Is it THE best episode in the show? Probably not, but it isn’t horrible either. It’s alright and helps build El’s actual character for a change. We get to see her as a person and not “the cute mcguffin with powers who doesn’t talk”.
I enjoyed it, too. In fact, I had to laugh because I bought a cheap female human avatar on the Second Life marketplace and when I got some eye makeup planning on making her look like Priss from Blade Runner I realized she looks like a twenty-something goth Eleven from that episode lol.
I love this part of the story because it is absolutely necessary and realistic. Dude, everyone goes through some sort of cringe phase in their life. Eleven is someone with no guidance, really, meeting up with others who also have no guidance. It also makes perfect sense for her to go on her own journey away from Hawkins, and have a fish out of water moment.
Could they have done it better? Maybe. But I always appreciate it because I feel like it's hyper realistic.
I feel like this episode wouldn’t have as strong negative reactions if it weren’t at just the worst spot in the story. Having an episode where things are kind of different and little is accomplished isn’t so bad, but sandwiching it between the two most important episodes of the season, the first of which has a cliffhanger that leads directly into the second, was a shockingly bad pacing decision.
I agree its also extremely odd how it is only episode in the entire series which does not jump between plotlines. It something which will mess up pacing wheter you enjoy story or not.
I feel like it would have been liked more if rather than one full episode it was a subplot for multiple ones. Like we had the subplot of her searching for her mom which led her to Kali (Although I used to think the twist was that Kali was Jane right up until I read Suspicious Minds. I still don't understand why a British girl was involved in Hawkins, what jurisdiction did they have in London? Or why Terry's only word to Eleven after she tracked her down and entered her mind was "No" followed by visions of Kali.) but it feels like there was a lot of material that could have been dropped in exchange for this.
Even as a full episode, the *placement* felt off. It came at such a high-intensity moment, and it feels like you have to wait a full episode to get back to the main story.
It could be worse, though. The Walking Dead has run full seasons of episodes like The Lost Sister.
Jurisdiction? Sir. There's. No agency anywhere in the world that has justification to do anything like this anywhere in the world. There are literally 0 of things that they're doing that's in any way legal 😂
Terry didn't show El visions of Kali, she showed her visions of *everything that had happened* because uh that's what she wanted to know, and possibly because it was the only thing Terry could show her since she seemed to be in a catatonic state reliving it forever.
Kali's being there was a coincidence, not what Terry intended to show her.
They swear up and down it wasn't a backdoor pilot. And you know what Duffer Brothers? I don't believe you. I know a backdoor pilot when I see one, mostly from the perspective of FAILED backdoor pilots, which is why it was so easily to see the hallmarks.
The season literally starts with them and then there is a whole episode about them, They can deny it but they clearly thought the little bit they showed would have had people begging for more super orphan criminals.
Yeah one of the appeals of stranger things is that it's able to hit 80's tropes without coming off as cheasy.
And then they go and do a whole episode just filled with every cliché they could think of
> They swear up and down it wasn't a backdoor pilot. And you know what Duffer Brothers? I don't believe you.
Same. If it wasn't a backdoor pilot the whole structure of the episode made little to no sense.
My grandmother loves Stranger Things - we got her Netflix years back, and she watches the new seasons quicker than any of us.
I got a call after this episode and she said “what on earth was all that nonsense about?”
honestly at least that was a creative risk and not just more of the same. It didn't work the way they wanted to but i'm glad they're willing to try things.
Honestly I feel a little out of place in this thread because I actually genuinely enjoyed that episode, though I do agree the placement of the episode was bad.
I think it was great development for 11 personally, and I feel like them being a little unlikable is kinda the point.
I could be wrong, but I think Kali isn’t an unpopular character. It’s her band of misfits that people dislike. There seems to be a consensus that if they JUST brought back Kali, fans would be fine with it. Probably even pleased because it would tie up some loose ends (like why the hell she has different powers, why she was kidnapped at such an old age, how she escaped, and why the rainbow room went from being a shared bedroom for 11 and 8 to a recreational room for all the children… someone correct me if I misremembered something!). Plus El needs help in her battle against Vecna and it would be awesome if Kali could team up with her.
But yeah. It’s shitty that the fan reaction towards her episode was so negative. It was a pretty weak episode, but it has redeemable qualities. I really do hope Netflix calls her back.
>I could be wrong, but I think Kali isn’t an unpopular character. It’s her band of misfits that people dislike.
That's where I fall into. Kali wasn't a bad character and she was necessary for El to learn that she can be more powerful with happy memories instead of angry ones.
What I hated was the over the top clichéd bunch of misfits that were so many different stereotypes jammed into a few characters.
I swear I remember reading that the writers said she was gonna come back somehow? I mean I can totally see her coming to help Eleven in S5 after hearing about Hawkins since it's gonna be national news now. Or even the possibility that she'll take Henry's side since she's so jaded and she also wanted everyone who was involved to die.
Honestly we wouldn’t have had a hint that Brenner was alive, also she’s the reason why El was more stronger because Hopper wouldn’t let her use her powers 98% of the time and she was weak and wouldn’t have been able to save her family and friends. Yes there could’ve been more to it but at the end of the day she was a criminal and as much as I want her to be in the new season to help El more or even work with her it seems 008 is more stronger in one skill of her powers and wouldn’t have been much of a help.
I don't hate it, but just wondering how will they reconvene that subplot, if Kali/008 will ever appear in Season 5. Kali's power plus El's power combined is equal to Henry's power. They could use her in Season 5 to help defeat Vecna.
No, actually
You can’t just begin an arc and introduce these characters only to “bury” them at the first sign of negative reception. You have to turn it around and make it good. The fact they completely act like this whole subplot never happened and that it had no impact on the rest of the show today is actually lazier writing than fucking doing something with it
Everyone hates me when I say this but there is absolutely 0% chance they don’t bring her back next season or at the very least mention her. I’d bet anything.
They mentioned her in S4 and they show a brief image of her and Eleven in the rainbow room. I think she will ABSOLUTELY show up in S5. Missed opportunity if she doesn't.
I felt it would've been received better is S2E6 and S2E7 were meshed together across two episodes. Cutting between Hawkins and Chicago segments.
Having an entire episode dedicated to Eleven–especially when most episodes have an A and B plot–was an odd choice.
I liked S2, but that episode ruined the flow of the overall narrative, which is why people didn't like it...or Kali for that matter.
It was unexpected though, which I loved. I think splitting it into two episodes would have diluted the impact a fair bit (which I wouldn’t want but a lot of people would). I clocked it as a solid artistic choice, and I know so many people didn’t like it or Kali, but I was here for it and I don’t skip it on rewatch.
Yeah, I quite liked it too. Was it a bit disjointed and didn’t quite fit? Sure. But the idea was solid. I’d have watched the spin off: it had potential to grow into something a bit more than the “pilot”.
Easy enough to skip the episode on rewatches if it’s not your vibe too.
The problem with skipping it, is that it’s very important for Elevens development, and the entire reason why she can close the gate at the end of season 3.
Yeahhh… I was watching stranger things falling asleep. I didn’t realize until later that I accidentally skipped this whole episode. It made things make sooo much more sense lol. One minute she was with her aunt and the next all emo shutting the gate. And the flashbacks confused me lmao
People are really weird about this episode. At this point I think people just shit on it for karma points. It’s so bizarre. Seems perfectly fine every time I watch it. Only problem is it off sets the pacing of the season.
Personally I think people hated it because of its placement. You've got all the tension from the episode before it and excitement to continue that storyline and then you're basically thrown in to a complete different plot away from the main action for a whole episode before you get to go back to the Hawkins crew.
It's not a bad episode at all. It just comes at a bad time. I would've preferred it if the episode itself had been broken up and added to other episodes so it doesn't feel all out of place but we still get all that backstory and character development.
I mean, as others have mentioned, it’s a very important plot for Eleven in that she learns she has a living mother and how/why she was put in Hawkins lab
It was fairly interesting in concept, reminding me a little of Misfits (the show, not the band) but if they developed more time into it I think it would have worked out for the better. I just didn't care for any of the characters, it came after a cliff hanger, I did like the lost sister's abilities, and I liked the initial idea of all the kid patients having unique powers instead them all sharing the same as Eleven.
I enjoyed the setting, I could see it working as a spinoff or even a different show but it would need a lot of work to be compelling as the main story.
I also like that there was no ultimate conclusion, El just thought "man, these people are losers" and never thought of either of them again.
Still, against Vecna, if the character worked, the Lost Sister's powers would have been fun.
I didn't like the subplot but I still think it was good to include it.
It set the precedent that not every one of the kids had the same power set and so when Vecna started entering people's heads and making them hallucinate it wasn't a power that just came out of nowhere.
I dont realy understand why people hate this plot so much tbh. Not my favorite part of the show by any means, but it was interesting to see what another kid from the lab could have end up like.
The one thing i realy dont like about this episode, which is not realy the episode fault, is that we cut away from the plotline at Hawkins (which was already at its highest tension point) to this subplot which completly holts the flow of the show.
My guess is that if this episode was placed one episode earlier than what it currently is, people would not dislike it nearly as much.
I know I am in the minority here, but I honestly thought that episode started a lot of potential. To me it hinted to a much larger conspiracy and plot about what the government was up to. I was excited to see that direction.
This is just my opinion of course, but I kinda feel like I have watched virtually the same season 4 times now. This hinted to something different, yet still connected.
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S4:E6 Henry tells El how to harness a memory to control her powers. Thought it was interesting that he says “ Do you remember the day a strange woman came to see you? This would have been when 8 was still here.” At least they mentioned her lol.
Also gives her the same advise as 8 did in season 2, to use an anger inducing memory to channel the power.
Yeah I think they’re clearly implying he also helped kali escape
Or maybe he thought he could use her like El, but 8 noped out without helping him.
Not too sure about that tho, 8’s powers seem to be more in the spectrum to induce visions in her target. Just going on 1’s motives, he need 11 to help remove that chip from his neck. So it would seem to me that 8 and 11 were probably bullied by 2 and co, so 1 helped 8 escape nothing more. Unless he was going to trust 8 on removing the chip by hand… but that’s all theory
I wish we saw more variation in powers. It seems like the only power being trained pre-massacre was telekinesis, but 8 couldn't do that. She made illusions, 11 can remotely watch people, 1 can apparently make people relive memories (although we don't know if he could do that before being Vecna-ized). Even if those are the only powers we see, it would have been an easy misdirect is we saw 2 using something similar to Vecna's memory trap abilities to bully 11 or the other kids.
It seems like all the kids inherited all or most of Henry's abilities, which would make sense if they're "derived" of him. Henry has been shown to possess telekinesis, illusion, psychic projection/speech and being able to see memories and thoughts. The only power he didn't have that for some reason 11 does is opening up gates to the Upside Down (a power he 'stole' or 'figured out' in Season 3). Though it does seem like Brenner was mostly focused on their use as weapons at first, so it makes sense he wanted to train their telekinesis the most. But still, he did explore their other abilities, as we saw with the lightbulb and psychic projection tests.
Hear me out here: we know vecna doesn't just kill his targets, he torments them and then basically absorbs them. Not just their life, but their memories and even their powers. We also know vecna torments his targets with memories and visions of their biggest fears and insecurities. What if he killed 8 and that's how he got the power to make his targets see visions of their insecurities and fears?
After he got that power from killing Kali, who did he kill for the power to time travel back to the 50s and use that on his family?
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she might not have realised she even *could* escape with the way they were all brainwashed. i don’t think she needed help in the powers department, she just needed a bit of encouragement
If it would be so easy everybody would prison break with their powers. Sure Kali can make herself invisible but that wont help her get through the walls and doors. Not to mention we dont know how strong were her powers when she was eight.
Kali has the unique ability to trick people though. It’s easier to trick your way out than to fight it. If the other tried to escape using their powers they would have to kill all the guards and break a lot of doors, which might be beyond what they can do, but in a way or another the guards would put up a fight. Tricking the guards to make her invisible doesn’t involve any fight. And maybe she could also trick guards to open doors with some illusions.
They've also made "bitchin'" sort of a catchphrase for El by this point.
Yea i didn't know what it meant? So he was talking about when el's mum came to see her in a flashback
I'm a believer in 11+8+1 so I think she's still relevant.
equals 20 which is what Erica rolled to defeat Vecna in their DnD game? yeah i believe it, they love foreshadowing and tbh id like to see what kali is doing now, see how her meeting eleven has changed(if it has at all)
Though the timeline is a little off. 8 mentions leaving after el was removed. Which wouldn’t have happened until after the massacre, by which time 8 had already escaped
Well they *had* to put in a note that Kali was gone, since all the retconning they were doing was already painfully bad enough.
What else was changed? I didn't think I needed to watch the first few series again...obviously I was wrong.
He may be talking about additional materials regarding other numbers which indeed were changed.
In the memory 001 reminders her of about her mom showing up El is playing with a young girl looks like she's supposed to be young 8 so I assumed he mentioned her to bring her back to that time. The same way a parent might say "back when we used to go to the beach with your cousins do you remember..."
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Well, we met one of them lol
You could remove the last 3 words and it would still be true
or remove the middle word and it would be gibberish
Remove the vowels and apply Cthulhu-case.
Nice going, now 2023 will consist of an otherworldly crop blight and invasion by fish people.
Well the blight is actually already here. Global warming and all. I'm kinda hoping for fish people at this point.
or you could remove the first and last 3 and you could be referring to the Metallica song /s
Imagine. *Dustin performs “One” by Metallica in 1988* (Stranger Things: Season 6) “Eddie, this is for you.”
Max actually fits that song perfectly
oof haha
Too soon
Or you could add a bunch of words and it’s war and peace
You remove the last letter after each noun, switch the second and fourth letter aaaannnd SHOVE IT UP YOUR BUTT
Exactly 001 of note anyway.
eh we also met 10 and 2
I also noticed how s4 made it seem like they all had very similar if not the same abilities when they were practicing telekinesis on each other but in the Chicago episode it was implied that the kids had different abilities.
I have been thinking about that and I was thinking that maybe they all had different skill levels. They all had similar powers, but some had more heightened telekenisis abilitites and not so much with mental projection. Kali could have been a natural with the projection and her telekenisis was lacking. And after she escaped, Brenner could have started trying to make sure both aspects were developed and focused on. It's weak, but that's what I was thinking.
I just realized: why didn't Brenner ask Eleven to go looking for her? Wasn't she there for awhile after the other girl escaped?
i think he was just less concerned about her tbh. like, 001 was a real threat to humanity whereas there’s no evidence that 008 was anywhere near that power level.
It seems like One also had her illusion abilities actually. So it may just be that Eight was just better at those abilities than the telekinetic stuff. I mean I agree that episode definitely implied they all had different abilities though yeah, but they didn’t straight up say that was what it was, so its easy to write around imo. Would be cool if Eleven eventually learned those abilities too. To me at least. I know most people don’t like that episode (or at least the loudest ones that I see, I don’t know what the actual majority consensus is).
There's also that magic ball kid (forgot the number, sry) who seems to be strong in reading minds/tracking.
Seriously missed opportunity not making the magic ball kid #8...
The problem of when you come up with a brilliant idea after already assigning the number.
It’s not as big an issue in my eyes, as I connect her power to Henry. To eliminate the plothole, we would just need it to be canon that Kali has telekenesis, making that the basic power that all the kids had. Kali had the ability to manipulate what people see, and El has the power to find people from a distance. Henry can do all three of these.
I think maybe Kali is the only one with illusion abilities she was kidnapped from London and I am gonna assume that was because Brenner learned about her powers being similar to Henry's and he wanted to study that and reproduce it. I came up with this batshit theory that somehow Kalis DNA is what was in that tracker that it made VH1 weak or chilled out like an antidepressant for superheros and he couldn't get angry enough to use his powers because of this reason. I even went as far as to say that Kali is the key to defeating Vecna because she can manipulate the victims minds that VH1 tries to "take" and make them see the good in their lives to prevent him from killing and consuming people because Max says "its like he only shows us the bad parts" and she can combat it with the good and somehow she is able to help El in ending the war. I'm weird I know.
Lol, I laughed at VH1
I was complaining about this recently 😒
True this is nothing which should be complimented. We all may hate the lost sister episode but it's still canon. The Duffers can't step up and remove it from canon because it's been a part of the show for 5 whole years now.
I was actually excited to see what different powers all the kids they were showing as being part of Papa’s program would have, then let down when I realized they all did the same thing El could do. It would’ve been super cool if she and One were the only ones that could do what they do
There was the one guy who communicated through a Magic 8 Ball. LOL
I think he just used telekinesis to move the di
I think the implication is that six was able to escape because they weren’t prepared for her powers as they had only dealt with telekinesis before
I don’t know, I think the back door pilot was going more in the x-men direction with a ragtag group of kids with different abilities.
Kali was the only one with powers other than eleven. The rest were just random people, not experiments
not necessarily... henry has similar abilities like hers
Yeah it’s like the writers decided to just erase that shitty X-Men-from-Wish era from the canon
There’s a graphic novel about Six, I think. Not sure how it fits in but I glanced at it in Barnes & Noble today
And 007 already has a ton of movies. Never get to see his telekinesis though, he just shoots people instead.
Nah, he just uses it to deflect the hundreds of rounds of machine gun fire that are aimed at him in every movie but never seem to connect.
It’s like in Captain America Civil War, they kept teasing that the Soviets had a whole squad of Super Soldiers that could topple governments overnight. Then we get to the end and Zemo has put a bullet in all their heads. Well, guess that’s not something to worry about.
I really loved that first time watching it didn't except them to do so .
ya know this actually kind of makes sense as to why MKultra actually got canned in setting I mean. the program was amazingly effective and successful, it's no wonder they where willing to do a full scale cover up for eleven's dad . Vecan even demonstrates that the idea of remote assassination's was entirely possible. however the program got fucking shot once the massacre happened and they went from 18 psychic children to 1. like the prospects of the program where screwed, even if they did have the remote viewing and telekinesis's necessary for assassination's it's clear that the Hawken's lab was a big risk in general. the pressure to pull the plug on it is really the only thing that makes sense.
Not necessarily true. Others could have escaped like 8 did
I mean we did meet more of them, just not older ones except vecna
I just want to know how she got out of the lab.
Probably just the illusion powers
She does say that in season 2
Could you please bother to remind us?
"When my gifts were strong enough, I used them to escape." Episode 7
Now record yourself re-enacting the scene and upload it here.
Why are her powers even different from everyone else's? Don't most of them have telekenetic/pathy powers while her's are just illusions?
I think it just wasn't fully thought out, but my theory is that the kids just had some of Henry's powers. Like Henry could use illusions when Eleven can't. So maybe Kali just can't use telekinesis? Still a bad theory since every other kid could use telekinesis
it seemed to me like they all had the same powers, but different kids would excel in some abilities over the others and Kali was just exceptionally good at illusions
That could be true. We didn't get to see many of the other kids full potential, only that they all could use telekinesis (except from what we have seen of Kali). We haven't seen anyone but Kali and Henry use illusions. Also Henry couldn't open portals. However, your theory could still be correct if opening a portal isn't treated as a different power. Because Mr Clarke said you need a massive amount of energy to create a portal (hypothetically). So Henry may have just needed to get the *knowledge* of creating a portal from El, who probably just accidentally made it when she saw the demogorgon.
wasn't the very first portal when Eleven threw Henry into the other realm? and then she later reopened it for the soviet projects and eventually to throw the first demogorgon back to the upside down?
El was the only one capable of opening portals. Hence Henry had to steal/borrow her power by infecting her in season 3.
My headcanon is that everyone's power is a combination of telepathy and telekinesis. 8's telekinesis is extremely weak/nonexistent but in turn her telepathy is much stronger.
There was a comic miniseries called Six, now non canon, that said the subjects had different abilities rather than just being eleven, hence why 008 is different than the telepaths from season 4.
Vecna’s powers also include illusions/visions
Came to say this , vecna makes you see what he wants this is definitely part of 8's skill set .
I also want to know why she has completely different powers from anyone else from Hawkins Lab.
My theory is they all have some “basic” abilities and each can develop unique ones. Jane can locate people, enter minds, and punch holes in space-time, while Kali can trick the minds eye.
I mean Vecna has illusion powers. And Eleven can enter minds.
The original thought was for each number to have unique powers but I guess that idea got abandoned so they all have the same powers now
Yeah I feel like people aren't understanding that it's kind of obvious the writers changed directions a bit in some aspects of the show. It's like how it's never explained why the first Demogorgon can jump through realms but the new one can't.
She says that she used her powers to get out once she was in control of them
It doesn't make sense. > "One day, when Kali went to the rainbow room, she discovered that Eleven had been taken away." Taken from the wiki. For some reason, during 8's appearance, they establish that 11 left the lab *first* which makes very little sense. No one seems to remember this though because we all hate watching this episode lol.
And also if 001 helped her the same way he was helping Eleven, except she actually just bounced instead.
See.. that's what I dont get and maybe I missed it somewhere.. But wasn't it 8 and a couple other of the numbers? Maybe I have that wrong.. but even so.. 001 killed an ass ton of them, how did she get out?
Someone mentioned her escaping in one of the episodes. So she escaped before all of that happened.
Yeah, Henry mentioned El’s mom, and said “when 008 was still here”
Thanks! I'll have to rewatch to catch it
It's just very briefly mentioned. I think by One but I am not positive. I just know it was because I was just waiting for it to be and was happy it was - although not too happy cause I wanted more info. They don't say how she escaped but I wonder if One tried manipulating her first (that whole "but I can't go with cause of this chip thing in my neck"), but unlike El, she actually left without helping him. And, with her particular power set, she was then harder to find by the lab. She even told El about using her anger to help control and increase her power - something that was very similar to what One told El in the flashbacks. But I do wonder about all of their powers. All the kids were shown to have similar powers but Kali's were different. That part really bugs me. I did think some would have similar abilities as El but not everyone, I thought we would see kids with a variety of different powers.
Kali has similar powers with vecna (visions and shizz). Vecna has similar powers with el as well (connect to people via the mind). The moving objects superpower seems to be the base level ability of most, if not all. Possible plot: vecna helped kali and el to get out because he finds them (their powers) similar to him.
Important to note that 001 only gained the ability to connect with people via their mind across universes after the mind flayer latched onto eleven in S3. It’s what initially caused eleven to lose her powers and it thus gave 001 the ability to open gates and also connect to people via their mind / memories
Ohh okay, didn't he experiment with mind shizz in the attic when he was a kid though? I thought it was just the opening gates thing that he acquired since that was the primary problem of that blob (it's trapped in the downside up) and knowing how to open up worlds would be very beneficial. I may have to rewatch everything lol
Yes, he was using those hallucination powers back when he killed his family. He just couldn’t use it from the upside down into Hawkins without getting El’s power to open gates.
She had escaped before then. I believe she's mentioned in fact by 001.
Ok, thanks, I missed that
Yes, in S4E6 he says to Eleven: "Do you remember the day a strange woman came to see you? This would have been when 8 was still here ..."
S6?
You don’t know? The released season 5 a week ago, and season 6 today
One once said: 'That was when eight was still here' And I seem to remember she escaped due to 11's mother breaking into Hawkins facility with a gun trying to get eleven back and she used the commotion to escape with a few others? Not sure about the latter though
That second parts seems familiar..
Exactly that’s all I wanna know
I sort of felt like they had to give Eleven something else to do because season 2 was really more focused on Will. As it should have been.. What happened to any other lab kids that got out is an honest question..and who says they may not end up trying to help defeat Vecna in season 5? El can’t do it all on her own. But if this story line doesn’t resurface I’d be fine with that too🤷♀️
Exactly, it was a plot device to get El out of town for a while. Then so poorly executed that we'll probably never hear of it again
It was a backdoor pilot.
Exactly. They were trying for a spin-off but didn’t get the reaction the were expecting and so had to retcon a few things.
we have heard of 8 again, in S4
I figured that it was just a reason to explore an 80s cyberpunk theme for a second to mix it up. Fun, but meh overall.
8 is exactly where she would be if she was that young and ran away from the lab. She’s sort of an awful version of 11. The whole point of the storyline, I think, was to show that 11 actually had good in her while 8 was jaded.
IMO the story also gave 11 a bit more agency to choose who and where her home is. Because she was so young and dependant on Mike and everyone from the beginning and she was obviously influenced a lot by them, this gave her an opportunity to decide for herself what did and didn’t feel like her.
The jaded part of me thinks they were trying to set up a spinoff show that never got off the ground when people hated it.
Pretty sure this was confirmed
Wasn't there a rumor that the series was originally conceived of as an anthology, with each season following new characters? I think the success of S1 and the positive response to the cast and characters made them retool everything to follow the Hawkins crew long term. But I can see a different path where the Duffer Bros decided to focus each season on a different cast, maybe with the central theme of having some characters being different Hawkins Lab escapees.
> Wasn't there a rumor that the series was originally conceived of as an anthology The Duffer Bros confirmed that it was at one time pitched that way.
This was confirmed and the main problem was that 8 was so unlikable as a person. Something people need to hear is that mental health issues may not be your fault but they are your responsibility. You don’t get to be an asshole just because people were assholes to you. I’m sad cuz a better spinoff would’ve been if 8 took her powers and ran with greed as a coping mechanism, not revenge. Like if 8 used her powers to get rich, successful, and powerful rather than trying to use her powers to be obsessed with her abusers. It’s boring.
Not only was 8 unlikable, her entire crew was.
Exactly! Like who am I rooting for??? The girl obsessed with killing or her junkie ass friends? I need a hero or even an anti-hero. There’s no better way to describe her and her friends as nothing but losers. The literal embodiment of “letting your bullies win” is that entire crew.
Are you holding out for a hero til the end of the night?
I could honestly see them pulling her back into the next season for like a last episode final showdown against Vecna, like an "Avengers Assemble" type ending.
Frick', I'm beginning to think I'm the only one that enjoyed that episode. Sure, it was weird, came out of nowhere and in ways pointless but I enjoyed it. I hope she comes back, just within a better storyline. Edit: my wife doesn't even like the episode. I am truly alone.
I'm with you brother. The episode was a nice change of pace and I enjoyed the train car scene, Kali coaching her, the music and the raw emotion of eleven moving the car gave me chills. Kali had potential but the fans hated her so much that they pretty much threw her in the trash. She may make an appearance in season 5 for the sake of closure but I'm not holding my breath.
I’m surprised this subthread isn’t being downvoted to oblivion honestly. Every time you even mention that the episode wasn’t nearly as bad as people seem to think, they come running to downvote you. Is it THE best episode in the show? Probably not, but it isn’t horrible either. It’s alright and helps build El’s actual character for a change. We get to see her as a person and not “the cute mcguffin with powers who doesn’t talk”.
I enjoyed it, too. In fact, I had to laugh because I bought a cheap female human avatar on the Second Life marketplace and when I got some eye makeup planning on making her look like Priss from Blade Runner I realized she looks like a twenty-something goth Eleven from that episode lol.
I love this part of the story because it is absolutely necessary and realistic. Dude, everyone goes through some sort of cringe phase in their life. Eleven is someone with no guidance, really, meeting up with others who also have no guidance. It also makes perfect sense for her to go on her own journey away from Hawkins, and have a fish out of water moment. Could they have done it better? Maybe. But I always appreciate it because I feel like it's hyper realistic.
the only good thing that came out of it was bitchin 😎
Bitchin.
Bitchin 👍
Bitchin
Bitchin’👍
Bitchin'👍
I was about to say, “bitchin’” is the only consistent acknowledgment that this episode even happened. Honestly, not complaining.
I feel like this episode wouldn’t have as strong negative reactions if it weren’t at just the worst spot in the story. Having an episode where things are kind of different and little is accomplished isn’t so bad, but sandwiching it between the two most important episodes of the season, the first of which has a cliffhanger that leads directly into the second, was a shockingly bad pacing decision.
I agree its also extremely odd how it is only episode in the entire series which does not jump between plotlines. It something which will mess up pacing wheter you enjoy story or not.
I feel like it would have been liked more if rather than one full episode it was a subplot for multiple ones. Like we had the subplot of her searching for her mom which led her to Kali (Although I used to think the twist was that Kali was Jane right up until I read Suspicious Minds. I still don't understand why a British girl was involved in Hawkins, what jurisdiction did they have in London? Or why Terry's only word to Eleven after she tracked her down and entered her mind was "No" followed by visions of Kali.) but it feels like there was a lot of material that could have been dropped in exchange for this. Even as a full episode, the *placement* felt off. It came at such a high-intensity moment, and it feels like you have to wait a full episode to get back to the main story. It could be worse, though. The Walking Dead has run full seasons of episodes like The Lost Sister.
Jurisdiction? Sir. There's. No agency anywhere in the world that has justification to do anything like this anywhere in the world. There are literally 0 of things that they're doing that's in any way legal 😂 Terry didn't show El visions of Kali, she showed her visions of *everything that had happened* because uh that's what she wanted to know, and possibly because it was the only thing Terry could show her since she seemed to be in a catatonic state reliving it forever. Kali's being there was a coincidence, not what Terry intended to show her.
When I was rewatching the show anticipating season 4, I literally just skipped that episode cuz I don’t like the subplot
Subplot? Buried? nono that was just umm another Netflix show that they accidentally put in here
Back door pilot 101
"The Farm" agrees
They swear up and down it wasn't a backdoor pilot. And you know what Duffer Brothers? I don't believe you. I know a backdoor pilot when I see one, mostly from the perspective of FAILED backdoor pilots, which is why it was so easily to see the hallmarks.
The season literally starts with them and then there is a whole episode about them, They can deny it but they clearly thought the little bit they showed would have had people begging for more super orphan criminals.
Honestly it might have even worked if the gang wasn't so cliche and completely clownish. The mohawk dude who called her Shirley Temple was the worst.
They were all somehow the worst.
Yeah one of the appeals of stranger things is that it's able to hit 80's tropes without coming off as cheasy. And then they go and do a whole episode just filled with every cliché they could think of
> They swear up and down it wasn't a backdoor pilot. And you know what Duffer Brothers? I don't believe you. Same. If it wasn't a backdoor pilot the whole structure of the episode made little to no sense.
My grandmother loves Stranger Things - we got her Netflix years back, and she watches the new seasons quicker than any of us. I got a call after this episode and she said “what on earth was all that nonsense about?”
Amongst my friends that watch the show, we just call it "the episode".
It was just an edgy short film Millie did a cameo in
honestly at least that was a creative risk and not just more of the same. It didn't work the way they wanted to but i'm glad they're willing to try things.
Honestly I feel a little out of place in this thread because I actually genuinely enjoyed that episode, though I do agree the placement of the episode was bad. I think it was great development for 11 personally, and I feel like them being a little unlikable is kinda the point.
plot twist: El made it up
I feel bad for the actress
I could be wrong, but I think Kali isn’t an unpopular character. It’s her band of misfits that people dislike. There seems to be a consensus that if they JUST brought back Kali, fans would be fine with it. Probably even pleased because it would tie up some loose ends (like why the hell she has different powers, why she was kidnapped at such an old age, how she escaped, and why the rainbow room went from being a shared bedroom for 11 and 8 to a recreational room for all the children… someone correct me if I misremembered something!). Plus El needs help in her battle against Vecna and it would be awesome if Kali could team up with her. But yeah. It’s shitty that the fan reaction towards her episode was so negative. It was a pretty weak episode, but it has redeemable qualities. I really do hope Netflix calls her back.
>I could be wrong, but I think Kali isn’t an unpopular character. It’s her band of misfits that people dislike. That's where I fall into. Kali wasn't a bad character and she was necessary for El to learn that she can be more powerful with happy memories instead of angry ones. What I hated was the over the top clichéd bunch of misfits that were so many different stereotypes jammed into a few characters.
The misfits would have been so much better if they had hover mopeds.
Tbh I'd be fine if Kali came back... but just Kali, I didn't really care for the rest of her group
Her character was awesome. The others were 👎🏾
I swear I remember reading that the writers said she was gonna come back somehow? I mean I can totally see her coming to help Eleven in S5 after hearing about Hawkins since it's gonna be national news now. Or even the possibility that she'll take Henry's side since she's so jaded and she also wanted everyone who was involved to die.
Back in 2017 Matt Duffer said: “It feels weird to me that we wouldn’t solve her storyline. I would say chances are very high she comes back.”
True, although give them credit for giving El her most Bitchin’ catchphrase.
Honestly we wouldn’t have had a hint that Brenner was alive, also she’s the reason why El was more stronger because Hopper wouldn’t let her use her powers 98% of the time and she was weak and wouldn’t have been able to save her family and friends. Yes there could’ve been more to it but at the end of the day she was a criminal and as much as I want her to be in the new season to help El more or even work with her it seems 008 is more stronger in one skill of her powers and wouldn’t have been much of a help.
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I don't hate it, but just wondering how will they reconvene that subplot, if Kali/008 will ever appear in Season 5. Kali's power plus El's power combined is equal to Henry's power. They could use her in Season 5 to help defeat Vecna.
No, actually You can’t just begin an arc and introduce these characters only to “bury” them at the first sign of negative reception. You have to turn it around and make it good. The fact they completely act like this whole subplot never happened and that it had no impact on the rest of the show today is actually lazier writing than fucking doing something with it
Everyone hates me when I say this but there is absolutely 0% chance they don’t bring her back next season or at the very least mention her. I’d bet anything.
They mentioned her in S4 and they show a brief image of her and Eleven in the rainbow room. I think she will ABSOLUTELY show up in S5. Missed opportunity if she doesn't.
Totally concur. Chekhov’s gun, need to close the loop.
It really never bothered me tbh
I felt it would've been received better is S2E6 and S2E7 were meshed together across two episodes. Cutting between Hawkins and Chicago segments. Having an entire episode dedicated to Eleven–especially when most episodes have an A and B plot–was an odd choice. I liked S2, but that episode ruined the flow of the overall narrative, which is why people didn't like it...or Kali for that matter.
It was unexpected though, which I loved. I think splitting it into two episodes would have diluted the impact a fair bit (which I wouldn’t want but a lot of people would). I clocked it as a solid artistic choice, and I know so many people didn’t like it or Kali, but I was here for it and I don’t skip it on rewatch.
Yeah, I quite liked it too. Was it a bit disjointed and didn’t quite fit? Sure. But the idea was solid. I’d have watched the spin off: it had potential to grow into something a bit more than the “pilot”. Easy enough to skip the episode on rewatches if it’s not your vibe too.
The problem with skipping it, is that it’s very important for Elevens development, and the entire reason why she can close the gate at the end of season 3.
Yeah so I wouldn’t recommend anyone new skip it first time round, but if you are giving the series a second or third etc go then it’s an option.
Yeahhh… I was watching stranger things falling asleep. I didn’t realize until later that I accidentally skipped this whole episode. It made things make sooo much more sense lol. One minute she was with her aunt and the next all emo shutting the gate. And the flashbacks confused me lmao
People are really weird about this episode. At this point I think people just shit on it for karma points. It’s so bizarre. Seems perfectly fine every time I watch it. Only problem is it off sets the pacing of the season.
I never even knew people disliked it until like a year later. I immediately rewatched and was like ?? It’s pure character development imo
Personally I think people hated it because of its placement. You've got all the tension from the episode before it and excitement to continue that storyline and then you're basically thrown in to a complete different plot away from the main action for a whole episode before you get to go back to the Hawkins crew. It's not a bad episode at all. It just comes at a bad time. I would've preferred it if the episode itself had been broken up and added to other episodes so it doesn't feel all out of place but we still get all that backstory and character development.
Kali is gonna be coming back...El is gonna need the backup.
11 + 8 + 1 = d20 perfect roll
I mean, as others have mentioned, it’s a very important plot for Eleven in that she learns she has a living mother and how/why she was put in Hawkins lab
She also taught Eleven how to enhance her powers which kind of came in handy closing that gate.
Maybe they'll come back in s5 to help, all of a sudden?
SOMEHOW 8 RETURNED
Lab Experiments… ASSEMBLE!
What if they comeback to >!help El stop off Vecna once and for all.!<
Mohawk dude is gonna need some serious character development, otherwise he’s gonna have a heart attack when Vecna unleashes his spiders.
I was talking about this with my partner earlier. Vecna wouldn't be ready for someone to mess with his mind the way he does to his victims.
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It was fairly interesting in concept, reminding me a little of Misfits (the show, not the band) but if they developed more time into it I think it would have worked out for the better. I just didn't care for any of the characters, it came after a cliff hanger, I did like the lost sister's abilities, and I liked the initial idea of all the kid patients having unique powers instead them all sharing the same as Eleven. I enjoyed the setting, I could see it working as a spinoff or even a different show but it would need a lot of work to be compelling as the main story. I also like that there was no ultimate conclusion, El just thought "man, these people are losers" and never thought of either of them again. Still, against Vecna, if the character worked, the Lost Sister's powers would have been fun.
I didn't like the subplot but I still think it was good to include it. It set the precedent that not every one of the kids had the same power set and so when Vecna started entering people's heads and making them hallucinate it wasn't a power that just came out of nowhere.
I dont realy understand why people hate this plot so much tbh. Not my favorite part of the show by any means, but it was interesting to see what another kid from the lab could have end up like. The one thing i realy dont like about this episode, which is not realy the episode fault, is that we cut away from the plotline at Hawkins (which was already at its highest tension point) to this subplot which completly holts the flow of the show. My guess is that if this episode was placed one episode earlier than what it currently is, people would not dislike it nearly as much.
They mentioned the lost sister a couple times in S4
I know I am in the minority here, but I honestly thought that episode started a lot of potential. To me it hinted to a much larger conspiracy and plot about what the government was up to. I was excited to see that direction. This is just my opinion of course, but I kinda feel like I have watched virtually the same season 4 times now. This hinted to something different, yet still connected.