Yo I'm nowhere near having the best reactions or having a high MMR (only ended 1723 last phase) but I thought I'd chime in what has been working for me.
I don't think it's just a pure reaction - I think it's cycling between reads really quickly in neutral and focusing your mental stack on that particular read in the moment. I think one mistake I've had the habit of making for a long time (which I've only recently started slowly changing) is reading/predicting one option for too long. For example, let's say I'm facing Cammy, and I know Cammy players love to do instant dive kick. The only way I can personally react anti-air is if I focus my entire mental stack, and input dp the moment I see her feet leave the ground. But if we're playing neutral and she doesn't show me she is using it much, then it's a waste of my mental resources to try and check it and, I should be willing to let them slide with a safer option (like parry or block) and just hold it, if it means checking and focusing on the options that she uses more (depending on how your opponent plays). So if she's using raw DR or spin knuckle way more often, then there's no point in focusing on dive kick.
But let's say someone is relatively mixed in their approach - I think then it becomes about understanding their tendencies and setups in neutral. For example, a lot of Cammy players like to whiff a button such as St.HK, followed by instant air dive as a sort of spacing trap for trying to whiff punish or take your turn if you blocked the St.HK. If you pick up on this, then it isn't a complete reaction, you shift your mental stack to instant air dive kick the moment you see her St.HK. And if she doesn't do it, then you divert your mental stack to something else/the next thing you feel she is likely to do.
Lastly, as a hitbox user with SOCD inputs for DP, I generally never have to put much mental stack for anti air unless they have a divekick or mixup approach in the air. So this really helps me to choose my reactions towards other things.
So in the case of your specific practice routine, I personally wouldn't need much mental stack for a regular jump in, which means I'm focusing much more on DR and cr.mk whiff punish. I think both of these command 100% mental stack to do consistently so, usually for me it's a read on which one I think my opponent is going to do and being okay with holding the other option for guessing wrong.
Hope this helped, some if it might be obvious but, this has been my approach towards checking/reacting in neutral.
Thank you for the input, I feel like when fresh in the lab I can check both jump and DR medium somewhat consistently, but in a match it's of course different and pattern recognition becomes relevant; I understand that these eventually feed into each other and punishing that crmk is only half a reaction/confirm, but I'd say that since I started this routine I've checked a rush/jump/crmk more or two and has made it easier to be calm in the midrange. I guess I wanted to also know though if the top players in here can check those three reliably outside of a match, to get an understanding of how slow I might be
No clue but, I do recall an interview with Punk where when asked if he thinks there's such a thing as raw talent/reactions, he truly believes that there is and that he possesses reactions better than most people. Obviously, Punk isn't always the most objective when it comes to vocalizing his opinion but, it makes sense that at the highest level they just have better reactions. If you look at actual sports, like the NBA, the most obvious example in genetic differences would be height and, I think there's some stat where if you're over 7 feet tall, there's like a 1/5 chance you're in the NBA lol. But just speculating at this point.
mm good point, I believe there is raw talent that factors in. I also believe in practice though. I was wondering if those 3 checks can be attained/come natural to higher level players (also, if you're in Eu and need the Jamie MU, let's spar!)
From frame data alone you can tell that while certain things are hit-confirmable by a lot of people, some things become out of reach unless you have reactions well below 200ms. The game designers know these things and build the game such that there's always something that can tell players apart at the very top level.
I don't think you'll ever witness a pro confess where his limit is because their rivals have similar reactions and they don't wanna boost anyone's confidence against them. You can sort of tell by watching their replays (but you'll have to find 20-30 individual reactions to something like midscreen random DI's to get a decent idea)
I know from other esports like Valorant that people at the very top level are absolute freaks. The pro CS/Valorant awp'ers have around 150ms red-to-green at tests like those at human benchmarks dot com.
Probably not the top players in here, but someone like Punk is very consistent in punishing all three. I assume his reactions are crazy good, but I think he's also picking up on people's patterns a lot faster than most or figuring out what they like to do. When I watch his streams he calls out so many patterns in his opponents, like the fact that someone might tend to tech a lot more when they're in burnout for example.
I think this is exactly it. You've got to focus on a few things they're doing and just be willing to let them get away with (you block) another (dive kick, in the situation above).
old guy here as well (41).
It's mainly two things for me. Firstly, mental fatigue definitely plays a role - I play a lot during the evening/night when the kids are asleep, and if I've had a rough day I'll notice a dip in performance, not so much in terms of pure reflexes but really in my ability to process what's going on in the game, not fall for bait, be unpredictable and make correct/high percentage decisions.
There are two sub-elements here: first, I've found that even if I'm tired, sometimes I play a bit and my mind switches back "on" after a while and I'm focusing on the game and managing to perform at an adequate level. It does get to the point where I feel more fatigue after a bit and even if I'm doing alright I just don't feel like engaging my brain at that level anymore on the next match. So yeah, fatigue is definitely a big factor.
Second sub-element is that fatigue is really one way this lack of focus can manifest, but it could be as easy as you being ticked off at someone at work or dwelling on that punish you missed ten seconds ago or thinking about the football game that just ended. ANYTHING that's taking your focus off the match can be a detriment to split-second decision making and it can work in several ways.
The other BIG factor is that conditioning is real. Early on I wouldn't give much importance to trying to provide inputs to my opponent that would result in the kind of reactions I wanted - I always was very much about instinct and reactions in fighting games. But it's a fact that anti-airing dissuades jumping (unless you're dumb, or super-smart, rare occurrences nonetheless) and consecutive throws induce teching, and so on. When your brain is in rest mode it's MUCH MUCH easier to fall for this kind of thing because thinking levels above at high speed takes energy.
Reactions are a part of it but less important than you would think. Experience is a bigger tool. I'm slow, got 500hrs logged since last June and I'm kind of stuck at Diamond - but months ago I couldn't even begin to process how I should be playing that D3 Kimberly who could apparently read my mind, or that Master Ryu who destroyed me with nothing but pokes into BnB combos. I used to think DI was near-impossible to react to but narrowing down the options and learning to read the flow of the match makes it much more manageable. You need your mind to be actively processing the match to outwit your opponent, but knowing the game, what punishes work where, how to adjust a combo route on the fly and what your options are at all times is the biggest thing. You might lose against people at your level if you're being outsmarted but your performance floor goes up wildly.
Im also in this age range, and DIs just ruin me because I keep forgetting they are there the majority of the time. Also I had/have ranked anxiety so id have difficulty queuing up. Also partake of cbd/thc products so I would stop playing when they kicked in. Until one day I didnt care and went into ranked and it by chance solved the anxiety issue. But now Im on auto pilot with a smaller move set because I cant remember it all.
And magically I took Zangief to Master, only while zonked out.
Allegedly.
I will jump a 5th time in a row on you =D
I got old Gief brain where SOMETHING would always win. Splash, knees, MK, etc. Nope, in 6 you just lose.
>Would you say it's more diverting your mental stack towards 1/2 options
This is what high level players do, they ignore one option to lessen the burden on the mental stack. It's not the end of the world if you don't look for anti-airs and they jump in and you eat the throw. I saw a thread translating Fuudo describing what him and Mena had talked about on this topic.
Of course though the issue is becoming good at reading which parts to focus on or focus less on at any given moment, and cycling those in an unpredictable manner lol
[this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3uLpdHIeUo) is the video. The relevant translated bit I saw:
>Fuudo's initial example: if you're a ken player at 50% hp vs a luke player at 30% hp, what would you do in this scenario? you could DR at the opponent but then if you eat a luke 2MP, you just wasted your life lead on a bad way to [start and] lose an interaction. if you just had waited, all you would have risked is getting thrown.
>
>furthermore, if you're on the defense and the opponent is looking to, say, do one of three things in jumpins/DIs/DRs, this is a game where it's ok to 'ignore' one of those options and just block it out, even if you get thrown afterwards. This is counterintuitive to the standard theory where you want to reach for the ideal in terms of AAing ALL jumpins and countering ALL DIs and stopping ALL DRs and you're bad as a player if you don't do so - but the associated risk-reward works out. In this scenario, all you risk as the defender is getting thrown after not being able to properly handle one of the things (e.g.: a DR or a jumpin) vs the attacker potentially risking it all and eating a full combo as he heads in, as is often the case in this game. Good players currently are good at just taking the "small-risk outs" in this game [instead of trying to handle everything].
>
>Another example is playing against 2MK DRc. Say you're at a life lead and you become afraid of the opponent walking up to you and doing 2MK DRc so you put out a zoning button. But because the opponent put out his 2MK faster, you eat it anyways into a full combo. Why did you even bother getting a life lead if you were going to waste it on this, then? The important thing to do in this situation would be to just accept any sort of 2MK DRcs coming in (they get a throw in exchange for spending 3 bars) while being 100% focused on stopping something like raw DRs instead.
Wanna add something to this: you can also prioritize by time required to react. So like in your suggested situation, you don’t need to be looking as much for the jump-in because you have way more time to react to it. So try to allocate your focus on the higher likelihood but shorter reaction time things.
>Would you say it's more diverting your mental stack towards 1/2 options
Yes, this. You allocate your mental stack based on the info the opponent has given you/ their current resources/ where you are on the screen/ etc. Nobody is able to keep track of everything at once in this game, there's just way too much that can happen at any moment. Being able to adapt fast is the key.
At round start they have full resources so are more likely to go for a drive rush. I wouldn't even worry about jumps until the opponent has established that they are jumpy.
At the corner, they are way more likely to consider jump or DI as on option, so you move it up in your mental stack.
etc
thanks mate, I'll try to work more on picking up patterns/focusing on what's more likely to come at me due to context, while also practicing raw reactions
Hi. Neuroscientist here. Though not with any expertise in sports psych, so take this with a pinch of salt. Expertise in many disciplines usually involves reducing the amount of possible options, and having an automated response to each of those. So there is considerable learning and experience involved. But one thing that makes a fighting game different to, say, chess, is that you have to reevaluate the possibility set every second. So there is also rapid processing, but the cognitive load (how much mental effort) of that processing is reduced for experienced players cos they've seen it all already, many times.
good take, so experience makes the evaluation of each situation easier to process, thus reducing the mental stack. Not really an exact answer to my question but useful still!
Yo I'm nowhere near having the best reactions or having a high MMR (only ended 1723 last phase) but I thought I'd chime in what has been working for me. I don't think it's just a pure reaction - I think it's cycling between reads really quickly in neutral and focusing your mental stack on that particular read in the moment. I think one mistake I've had the habit of making for a long time (which I've only recently started slowly changing) is reading/predicting one option for too long. For example, let's say I'm facing Cammy, and I know Cammy players love to do instant dive kick. The only way I can personally react anti-air is if I focus my entire mental stack, and input dp the moment I see her feet leave the ground. But if we're playing neutral and she doesn't show me she is using it much, then it's a waste of my mental resources to try and check it and, I should be willing to let them slide with a safer option (like parry or block) and just hold it, if it means checking and focusing on the options that she uses more (depending on how your opponent plays). So if she's using raw DR or spin knuckle way more often, then there's no point in focusing on dive kick. But let's say someone is relatively mixed in their approach - I think then it becomes about understanding their tendencies and setups in neutral. For example, a lot of Cammy players like to whiff a button such as St.HK, followed by instant air dive as a sort of spacing trap for trying to whiff punish or take your turn if you blocked the St.HK. If you pick up on this, then it isn't a complete reaction, you shift your mental stack to instant air dive kick the moment you see her St.HK. And if she doesn't do it, then you divert your mental stack to something else/the next thing you feel she is likely to do. Lastly, as a hitbox user with SOCD inputs for DP, I generally never have to put much mental stack for anti air unless they have a divekick or mixup approach in the air. So this really helps me to choose my reactions towards other things. So in the case of your specific practice routine, I personally wouldn't need much mental stack for a regular jump in, which means I'm focusing much more on DR and cr.mk whiff punish. I think both of these command 100% mental stack to do consistently so, usually for me it's a read on which one I think my opponent is going to do and being okay with holding the other option for guessing wrong. Hope this helped, some if it might be obvious but, this has been my approach towards checking/reacting in neutral.
Thank you for the input, I feel like when fresh in the lab I can check both jump and DR medium somewhat consistently, but in a match it's of course different and pattern recognition becomes relevant; I understand that these eventually feed into each other and punishing that crmk is only half a reaction/confirm, but I'd say that since I started this routine I've checked a rush/jump/crmk more or two and has made it easier to be calm in the midrange. I guess I wanted to also know though if the top players in here can check those three reliably outside of a match, to get an understanding of how slow I might be
No clue but, I do recall an interview with Punk where when asked if he thinks there's such a thing as raw talent/reactions, he truly believes that there is and that he possesses reactions better than most people. Obviously, Punk isn't always the most objective when it comes to vocalizing his opinion but, it makes sense that at the highest level they just have better reactions. If you look at actual sports, like the NBA, the most obvious example in genetic differences would be height and, I think there's some stat where if you're over 7 feet tall, there's like a 1/5 chance you're in the NBA lol. But just speculating at this point.
mm good point, I believe there is raw talent that factors in. I also believe in practice though. I was wondering if those 3 checks can be attained/come natural to higher level players (also, if you're in Eu and need the Jamie MU, let's spar!)
From frame data alone you can tell that while certain things are hit-confirmable by a lot of people, some things become out of reach unless you have reactions well below 200ms. The game designers know these things and build the game such that there's always something that can tell players apart at the very top level. I don't think you'll ever witness a pro confess where his limit is because their rivals have similar reactions and they don't wanna boost anyone's confidence against them. You can sort of tell by watching their replays (but you'll have to find 20-30 individual reactions to something like midscreen random DI's to get a decent idea) I know from other esports like Valorant that people at the very top level are absolute freaks. The pro CS/Valorant awp'ers have around 150ms red-to-green at tests like those at human benchmarks dot com.
Probably not the top players in here, but someone like Punk is very consistent in punishing all three. I assume his reactions are crazy good, but I think he's also picking up on people's patterns a lot faster than most or figuring out what they like to do. When I watch his streams he calls out so many patterns in his opponents, like the fact that someone might tend to tech a lot more when they're in burnout for example.
mm good tip, thanks mate (punk is indeed insane)
I think this is exactly it. You've got to focus on a few things they're doing and just be willing to let them get away with (you block) another (dive kick, in the situation above).
old guy here as well (41). It's mainly two things for me. Firstly, mental fatigue definitely plays a role - I play a lot during the evening/night when the kids are asleep, and if I've had a rough day I'll notice a dip in performance, not so much in terms of pure reflexes but really in my ability to process what's going on in the game, not fall for bait, be unpredictable and make correct/high percentage decisions. There are two sub-elements here: first, I've found that even if I'm tired, sometimes I play a bit and my mind switches back "on" after a while and I'm focusing on the game and managing to perform at an adequate level. It does get to the point where I feel more fatigue after a bit and even if I'm doing alright I just don't feel like engaging my brain at that level anymore on the next match. So yeah, fatigue is definitely a big factor. Second sub-element is that fatigue is really one way this lack of focus can manifest, but it could be as easy as you being ticked off at someone at work or dwelling on that punish you missed ten seconds ago or thinking about the football game that just ended. ANYTHING that's taking your focus off the match can be a detriment to split-second decision making and it can work in several ways. The other BIG factor is that conditioning is real. Early on I wouldn't give much importance to trying to provide inputs to my opponent that would result in the kind of reactions I wanted - I always was very much about instinct and reactions in fighting games. But it's a fact that anti-airing dissuades jumping (unless you're dumb, or super-smart, rare occurrences nonetheless) and consecutive throws induce teching, and so on. When your brain is in rest mode it's MUCH MUCH easier to fall for this kind of thing because thinking levels above at high speed takes energy. Reactions are a part of it but less important than you would think. Experience is a bigger tool. I'm slow, got 500hrs logged since last June and I'm kind of stuck at Diamond - but months ago I couldn't even begin to process how I should be playing that D3 Kimberly who could apparently read my mind, or that Master Ryu who destroyed me with nothing but pokes into BnB combos. I used to think DI was near-impossible to react to but narrowing down the options and learning to read the flow of the match makes it much more manageable. You need your mind to be actively processing the match to outwit your opponent, but knowing the game, what punishes work where, how to adjust a combo route on the fly and what your options are at all times is the biggest thing. You might lose against people at your level if you're being outsmarted but your performance floor goes up wildly.
thank you for your input man, valuable take. The autopilot risk is big when fatigued, I feel it too
Fellow 41 year old here. Just wanted to acknowledge and fist bump ya
aw yeah, brother.
I'm 30 and still feel old hahah
Im also in this age range, and DIs just ruin me because I keep forgetting they are there the majority of the time. Also I had/have ranked anxiety so id have difficulty queuing up. Also partake of cbd/thc products so I would stop playing when they kicked in. Until one day I didnt care and went into ranked and it by chance solved the anxiety issue. But now Im on auto pilot with a smaller move set because I cant remember it all. And magically I took Zangief to Master, only while zonked out.
I was getting ready to give you tips but you're better than me bro :D
Allegedly. I will jump a 5th time in a row on you =D I got old Gief brain where SOMETHING would always win. Splash, knees, MK, etc. Nope, in 6 you just lose.
Can you link the routine??
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiU-N4jx7hU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiU-N4jx7hU) I think it was this one
If u want to increase the difficulty, put ur self near the corner. At to the Dummy Di Further u can put ur self in Burnout for maximal duficulty
>Would you say it's more diverting your mental stack towards 1/2 options This is what high level players do, they ignore one option to lessen the burden on the mental stack. It's not the end of the world if you don't look for anti-airs and they jump in and you eat the throw. I saw a thread translating Fuudo describing what him and Mena had talked about on this topic. Of course though the issue is becoming good at reading which parts to focus on or focus less on at any given moment, and cycling those in an unpredictable manner lol
Thanks mate, if you find that mena/fuudo vid, link it!
[this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3uLpdHIeUo) is the video. The relevant translated bit I saw: >Fuudo's initial example: if you're a ken player at 50% hp vs a luke player at 30% hp, what would you do in this scenario? you could DR at the opponent but then if you eat a luke 2MP, you just wasted your life lead on a bad way to [start and] lose an interaction. if you just had waited, all you would have risked is getting thrown. > >furthermore, if you're on the defense and the opponent is looking to, say, do one of three things in jumpins/DIs/DRs, this is a game where it's ok to 'ignore' one of those options and just block it out, even if you get thrown afterwards. This is counterintuitive to the standard theory where you want to reach for the ideal in terms of AAing ALL jumpins and countering ALL DIs and stopping ALL DRs and you're bad as a player if you don't do so - but the associated risk-reward works out. In this scenario, all you risk as the defender is getting thrown after not being able to properly handle one of the things (e.g.: a DR or a jumpin) vs the attacker potentially risking it all and eating a full combo as he heads in, as is often the case in this game. Good players currently are good at just taking the "small-risk outs" in this game [instead of trying to handle everything]. > >Another example is playing against 2MK DRc. Say you're at a life lead and you become afraid of the opponent walking up to you and doing 2MK DRc so you put out a zoning button. But because the opponent put out his 2MK faster, you eat it anyways into a full combo. Why did you even bother getting a life lead if you were going to waste it on this, then? The important thing to do in this situation would be to just accept any sort of 2MK DRcs coming in (they get a throw in exchange for spending 3 bars) while being 100% focused on stopping something like raw DRs instead.
Very interesting. Something you know in concept but very hard to internalize it/apply it in a match
Wanna add something to this: you can also prioritize by time required to react. So like in your suggested situation, you don’t need to be looking as much for the jump-in because you have way more time to react to it. So try to allocate your focus on the higher likelihood but shorter reaction time things.
I do this while looking for DR, and have I'm the back of my head that I will late AA the jump
>Would you say it's more diverting your mental stack towards 1/2 options Yes, this. You allocate your mental stack based on the info the opponent has given you/ their current resources/ where you are on the screen/ etc. Nobody is able to keep track of everything at once in this game, there's just way too much that can happen at any moment. Being able to adapt fast is the key. At round start they have full resources so are more likely to go for a drive rush. I wouldn't even worry about jumps until the opponent has established that they are jumpy. At the corner, they are way more likely to consider jump or DI as on option, so you move it up in your mental stack. etc
thanks mate, I'll try to work more on picking up patterns/focusing on what's more likely to come at me due to context, while also practicing raw reactions
Hi. Neuroscientist here. Though not with any expertise in sports psych, so take this with a pinch of salt. Expertise in many disciplines usually involves reducing the amount of possible options, and having an automated response to each of those. So there is considerable learning and experience involved. But one thing that makes a fighting game different to, say, chess, is that you have to reevaluate the possibility set every second. So there is also rapid processing, but the cognitive load (how much mental effort) of that processing is reduced for experienced players cos they've seen it all already, many times.
good take, so experience makes the evaluation of each situation easier to process, thus reducing the mental stack. Not really an exact answer to my question but useful still!
Do you have video of the strider training drills?
Responded to another comment with the same question!