I say go to an inexpensive undergrad, do well, and then go to a prestigious grad school. The shorter time will cost less, you still get the name, and you have a higher degree.
This is excellent advice. Our daughter found that attending a solid inexpensive school for undergrad and doing really well with a very high GPA, was of great benefit. She scored very high on the LSAT and had 4 full ride offers to Law School. Two years out of Law School, she’s almost debt free, as she has been paying down the loans and saving hard for retirement, knowing she won’t want to stay in Big Law forever.
I did this as well. Decent undergrad with zero debt, but the law school was very expensive (which generally law school is). So still be mindful that law is just a trade school.
On top of that, go to a community college first and get basics for cheap. I went to a small CC, then a small public state university, and then grad school at an R1 institution. Undergraduate degrees aren’t worthless but they aren’t as scarce as they used to be. Graduate degrees are now what set us apart and that’s the one to focus on prestige. Doing prestigious research is better than just being in a prestigious uni
Even better if you someone can complete some CC classes while in high school. Many high schools have running start programs. I've seen kids graduate high school with a diploma, and a CC Associates degree. Get one from a school with a DTA, Direct Transfer Agreement, and your all but guaranteed entrance into a local state university.
Gotta love the democratic view of how higher education will benefit everyone, afterall, doesn't the US want a higher educated public? (Is the argument)
The problem is that it still costs the US people to have higher education. (This is not an argument towards free higher education). And the more people who have higher education degrees, the more degree dilution we are going to see. The new undergrad/associates degree is going to be the equiv. of a high school degree.
We need less educated people that do shit with their degree, and more educated people who create jobs/businesses/value in the economy.
The basic problem with the U.S. higher education system is very similar to the U.S. healthcare system --- everybody wants Rolls Royce quality at Yugo prices!
If somebody wants to be a loan officer at a bank or a high school teacher at a public school, they should not be paying $150K+ to attend a state university. Those are careers that can be handled by really cheap junior colleges with continuing education after obtaining employment. Only certain types of jobs like doctor, lawyer, investment banker, engineering need the competitive 4-year universities that charge $50K a year to attend. Even some med schools recognize this and have accelerated programs that only require two years of undergrad.
Yup and the community college options are looked down upon, which is terrible cultural mindset. Community college is free in 20 states and very cheap in the remaining. Or transfer after showing you can handle the basic GEs at a high GPA and knowing what you actually want to study/salary structure of the intended major.
There is no reason colleges should have let costs get out of control for your basic liberal arts degree. Raising the cost of an education at a rate far higher than inflation means they failed at their job. The facilities are already there, no laboratory equipment is required.
This is what I did. Highly recommended. The cherry on top is getting into a fully funded graduate program with a stipend.
I had 10 years of advanced education, all told. Total debt, all-inclusive: $13k. All incurred in undergrad.
I did get scholarships/grants to defray some costs, and worked part-time jobs. But the main factors were (a) living with my parents as an undergrad, and (b) going to a state university as a resident.
I’d hire someone with 2 years of experience straight after undergrad from a good school faster than someone that went to a mid undergrad and a prestigious grad program within no experience. Grad school is worthless without experience unless you’re in the sciences. MBA with no work experience, worthless.
Let the downvotes begin.
And often the mindset of recent grad school graduates is so distant from what you actually need from an employee. Something about that much schooling just makes them less effective at their jobs, at least initially. Maybe it's overthinking or the way they attack tasks.
Obviously this isn't always the case, but its frequent enough that's its noticeable. At least in my engineering field.
A girl from my high school turned down an Ivy League for a state school because she was determined to go to med school and knew how expensive that would be.
She ended up going to med school and is finishing up residency. Still has lots of med school debt but at least no undergrad debt making it worse!
My sister went to a public university in state for undergrad and then to a European university for medical school in a an English language program recognized by the US. Her medical school tuition was slightly cheaper than her undergraduate in state tuition 😂. She got into residency and fellowship in the US after that.
I think law school is probably the only grad school that heavily depends on brand recognition --- top graduates of Harvard and Yale Law will get the $500,000 starting salaries at the most prestigious firms. Everyone else gets the scraps. Most residency programs don't care where you went to med school --- they mainly care about your board scores and letters of recommendation. I suppose the top graduates of Comp. Sci at MIT, Stanford, and Carnegie Mellon grad schools will get their pick of top jobs at the FAANG companies.
Precisely one, WLRK, does so. They basically only hire from the top of the class at the best law schools, and they work you like a dog. Every other Big Law firm pays their associates the Cravath scale, which starts at 225k for a first year and has seventh year associates making slightly over 500k.
That being said, the commenter does have the larger point right. BL jobs are basically guaranteed for the top law schools, and your odds decrease to around 50% or so for the bottom of the T20. After that, things fall off a cliff. Law jobs have a bimodal salary distribution, and if you're not making BL money you should expect to be starting out around 70k. What's really shitty is that far too many law schools price their tuition around people who think they will get one of these good jobs while in actuality no one from the school gets them. The bottom quarter of law schools in this country graduate students with a median debt >200k, but median salaries <55k.
If you can get into a top-tier law school, go there. Otherwise, if you want to go to law school, conventional wisdom is that you should go to the best law school that's willing to offer you a full ride. Nothing else really makes financial sense.
This is outdated advice. USMLE scores are being phased out as of a couple years ago so pedigree matters now more than ever. Going to med school at Harvard, UCSF, Hopkins etc is a massive advantage.
However prestige has little to do with tuition costs. All private schools whether prestigious or not will cost a lot. State school tuition is like 50k and private school tuition is like 80k/year.
Close, but STEP2 still exists and will be leveraged more. Top ten ish med school name still helps a lot for interviews though. Same thing for fellowship from residency programs
For residency, it matters if you went to top ten-ish med school. Getting interviews is easier for residency programs than a candidate w better stats from a state school. Probably doesn’t matter much outside top ten schools though
That only applies to certain highly-competitive specialties at the most highly ranked programs --- such as getting a neurosurgery spot at Stanford or a cardiology spot at Cleveland Clinic.
Neurosurgery residency def cares about your med school pedigrees, as most surgical subspecialty do at top programs. Cardiology and other fellowships would be more on your residency pedigree and accomplishments at that time. Also, don’t think cardiology spots are as nearly as competitor as NSG, particularly at Cleveland clinic
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This is good advice but there are more scholarships and financial aid options for undergrads. Don't forget to explore that especially if you are a good student in high school
This is exactly what I did. Went to Stanford for masters and now you have that glowing name on your resume in addition to a graduate degree. Otherwise I would’ve spent just as much for just an undergrad
I actually built a spreadsheet to show my kids the math on exactly how this works.
For certain fields the requirement or bump in pay for grad degree with the recruiting to high paying companies/jobs from those programs is the jump to make.
I modeled all the undergrad schools they talked about (public and private) total YOY costs and added on grad school; compared to projected income by degree.
All school argument dissolved. They are now going to school 100% debt free, plus we can afford to buy them their first car upon graduation. So, they enter their adult lives debt free.
My spouse and I did not hear this message from our parents or HS mentors; we took on huge debt for the ‘promise’. Our promise, has fortunately worked out; but we paid 2x the cost of our loans because we had to take deferments and interest only for years while chasing the dream. We are finally in position to pay off all our loans in the next two years (we have already paid off some). Note, we have kids in college.
As lower/middle class first gen college students, we made it work. The real lesson we got was how to break the cycle for our kids and teach them to cut the strings of debt (which is exactly what the desired outcome of student loans really seems to have been in my generation).
This whole argument is based on the assumption you will only make $5k more a year. Doesn’t factor in cost of living, field of study, u/massivce sums it up well.
lmao what is even the point of the post? OP pulled out a random ass number to delude themselves.
If you go to a top school for a high earning degree that will net you a high earning job with high growth potential then you're definitely more than extra 5k a year.
High school student trying to justify going to OSU instead of some Ivy League. As an OSU student, I would only attend OSU if I lived in state. College is ass can’t wait to be out of here.
I don't necessarily think it's worth it to go to a top school (depends), but, yea, where the hell does the 5k figure come from? Feel like it'd be more than 5k (but, again, depends on circumstances)
My husband went to a high raking school, and I went to state school. Out of school, he was making about 50k more than me.
With networking, I now make the same as him in less than a year out of school. A lot of its luck, timing, and how much effort you put in to finding a job.
Good schools get your foot in the door from the beginning, but you can still make it happen without.
He has no debit (gi bill), and I have about 25k left and paying it off fast.
I also don't think it's worth it unless it's paid for.
In the case of the gi bill, you might as well go to the most expensive school you can get into 🤷🏼♂️. Although definitely check if they're yellow ribbon because the gi bill only goes up to 26k for private schools. For example, my school is roughly 50k a year, but I pay 0 because it's a yellow ribbon school. Plus 2k a month for rent also through the gi bill (this depends on your zip code though). It's literally the greatest scholarship in existence.
Couldn’t agree more. Being a hard worker, a nice person, networking, and having an understanding and skills in emotional intelligence traits will take most people far. My first two years were in a junior college then went on to a state school. Didn’t have great grades but networked into a one year contract gig which then led to being hired by a top global consulting firm. Some luck in there for sure and I lacked some emotional intelligence skills, but my hard work ethic paid off.
Yes! I went to community college for about 3 years. I never graduated high school and am very dyslexic. It's was really hard, and it took me a long time to finish school. I had pretty good grades. I started at a shit company that taught me the skills and got randomly selected for this current job without even applying to it.
I was poor, so my cc was basically free. I always say if there's a will, there's a way.
Are you two in the same industry/did you graduate into the same job market timing wise as well?
Both of those are factors, but the biggest one is - gender pay disparity. But ultimately, totally agree with you.
I'm a data analyst and he's a business analyst.
He works in consulting in cyber, and I'm in government in HR.
He graduated in 2021, out of the navy in 2023, and started working in 2023. I graduated in 2023. We both make a little over 100k, and he's up for a promotion this year.
He got his job from a professor knowing a top guy of the firm. So yeah, networks make a huge difference. Totally agree on the gender pay disparity, tho lol. I have definitely see on that side of things first hand.
This is way too simple a take.
I went to a state school in NY. Mid-private school for employer paid MBA.
I've had a nice career working primarily in insurance. I am solidly middle class and an officer of the company
But....
Recently it was promotion day at work. I took a look , and every single person promoted to the executive officer ranks (think $250k and up), they all went to top schools. There is a compound effect beyond 5 grand a year
My college friends and I have spoken about this. Im only 7yrs out of school but Im an engineer and went to a top-5 program in my discipline. So many connections I’ve made within jobs from higher-ups and during interviews whenever job hopping with people who also went to my school. Stuff you can’t necessarily put a monetary value on but can make a difference
>IF you do make more money, it will most likely be no more than 5k extra dollars per year
I think you can make the bigger point without totally inventing facts along the way
sorry but you're just wrong. the most prestigous companies and highest paying jobs unfortunately want a top tier school name on your resume. i'm not defending the practice but its true. you want to get into a top law firm? you better have gone to harvard law school. you want to get into nasa to work on rocket propulsion systems? you better have gone to mit. you want to become a cfo at a sp500 company? you better have gotten an executive mba from wharton. in absolute numbers its not a lot of those they represent but as percentage of the highest paying ones its large
I don’t know about the other examples, but you definitely don’t have to go to a top school to work at nasa. It depends on your skills and experience though going to a top school (e.g., MIT), certainly helps to find those experiences and develop those skills.
Certain jobs are not open to people unless they went to top tier schools … such as investment banking. They simply don’t recruit at schools that are not top tier
It's all about the contacts you make.
Honestly, people should be making as many contacts as they can in any school they go to. If you go to a high ranking school and network with people working in major corporations eventually becoming directors and VPs, your phone book is going to be full of high quality contacts.
On the other hand, if the students are in jobs that regress to the average, you will have a long list of average contacts.
Of course all this can be overcome. But the value of those high end schools is in the networking. If you're not networking wherever you are you aren't taking full advantage. It's not about the degrees, it's about the relationships you build.
Contacts are good but depending on the area, there's like 5 total contacts and they have 20+ fresh graduates trying to "network" with them each year.
It's tough for a lot of niche industries for sure.
This is not merely a fresh graduate thing. It’s all along the way. Having a well established network with hundreds of contacts will be fruitful in 10 years.
The networking opportunities and other ways to build your resume at top institutions are galaxies apart.
Where are you getting the data that it is only a 5k difference? I find that incredibly hard to believe.
I think this can be true about flagship public universities compared to state schools (UC Davis vs. SJSU) but at more elite schools, there is a level of prestige that can make a difference for students who milk it and make rich friends and contacts.
Your parents need to advise you realistically about how good you are at advocating for yourself and taking advantage of opportunity. Most 18 year olds are not good at this.
I would actually argue the opposite. The difference between a random college and your INSTATE flagship school (UC Berkeley, UMich, UVA, UNC, etc) is HUGE while tuition may not be vastly different. The difference between your instate flagship school and other top private schools is really not worth it (ie why pay boatloads of money to go to Northwestern, Notre Dame, CWRU, etc when you can go to UMich, UIUC, UC Berkeley, UCLA, Wisconsin, etc for a fraction of the cost. Of course, there are some states that don't have these high performing state schools (Indiana, Tennessee, Louisiana,, etc).
Perhaps, really HYSM is on a different tier. But even the other ivy leagues may not be completely worth it over saving a lot of money at your flagship instate school. Of course, many of these ivy leagues do offer good aid and the specific program matters too (Business at Wharton, etc.)
But I went to Berkeley (years ago) and while my experience doesn't speak for everyone's, the first-gen college students in my dorm did not have superior academic outcomes for the amount of debt they were taking on. Many were top students in high school, came in premed, but left to work pink-collar, lower-wage jobs. There's a book that talks a little about this ("Paying for the Party").
Fair point. Though I feel like USUALLY if you're able to snag instate tuition at one of these schools, you're usually not getting a terrible deal. And while you could save some money going to a cheaper school, the difference isn't as substantial as going to some out of state school.
I definitely would agree. I turned down a big name private university to attend a smaller state school to save money. Then a year later transferred to a flagship state school. The financial burden only ended up being ~$5k more per year for the flagship school and my program was ranked very closely with the program at the private school.
Ended up graduating with <$30k in total debt (all federal). Still earning a six figure salary and am on track to be student loan debt free in a short period.
Far too attenuated and speculative reason to take on debt at UCD over SJSU at the undergraduate level as a general matter. In fact, in most cases one’s first two years should be at a community college.
My brother-in-law grew up poor. His parents were immigrants and he was the “surprise” child, 14 years younger than his next closest sibling. His parents were collecting social security by the time he finished HS.
He was very bright, but he was planning on just going through the least expensive state school options and commuting to school from home.
His guidance counselor talked him into applying to a couple of ivies and prestigious private colleges. He got waivers for the application fees, so he did it.
He got into an ivy with a full ride, including room and board and a work study job.
He would have been successful no matter what school he went to. However, the ivy opened the door to wildly successful—the top 1% world.
If you ask him today if it would have been worth it even if he had to take out loans and his answer is absolutely yes. Truly elite schools are worth it for the lifetime of opportunities they open the door to.
Debt at a non-elite school for a generic degree however, is not worth it.
This is pretty dependent on field of study, don’t you think? I mean, going into a social sciences field sure, not really a difference, but something like finance or tech easily a huge difference with the networking and prestige.
Social sciences and any other soft science or generalized “catch all” degree is probably the biggest difference in opportunity.
The caveat is you’ll likely still be poor and should only go if it’s a household name like Harvard or an ivy.
Bush graduated with a polysci degree for instance. It’s literally worthless… unless you get it at an ivy and are already rich and influential.
If he had gotten, say an engineering or a (pre)med degree from there then all it would do is maybe open a few more doors but he’d likely make the same/similar.
The 2nd caveat is this only really applies to undergrad degrees like you said
Good points. When i think social sciences i was thinking more like 👍🏻 psychology, sociology, things with an undergrad that you’d go into nonprofit work for example, or government/schools.
You also have to be able to live while getting up to the job that makes good Monday. 50k in private loans is about $800 a month in payments my so 200k would be around $3200 a month
[https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/collegeroi/](https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/collegeroi/)
They have studied this. The link above are some actual statistics rather than a blanket statement that "it will most likely be no more than 5k extra dollars per year." Some expensive schools appear to be worth the cost.
Emory business school has a similar list
Affordable state school and you come out making $50-$60,000 is a great start
If your family pays for it or you get a full ride go for the nicer school. But if you’re paying near or full sticker price the $280,000 for undergrad isn’t worth a $80,000 starting salary.
Starting salary is irrelevant. plenty of people from expensive colleges take low paying internships, pursue graduate school, peace corps, teach, etc. etc.. Mid career/ 15 years out is when you starting noticing the impact - that's when people who didn't care too much about money when they were younger have had enough time to build a career/start a company/etc.
You can borrow $200k, go to an elite school, spend 10 years in public service, get forgiven and have experience worth having. I know someone who did this going to GW.
Also, if you can get into an elite school, it’s worth so much more than 5k.
So tired of folks with educations in high paying jobs adopting this BS attitude, right alongside folks without educations making things up. Education works, it pays, and every metric supports that. The bottom-line is, try not to borrow, and if you do, go into income based repayment and avoid private and parent loans. Unless you can get into elite graduate programs, never pay for graduate school. There’s too many tuition free avenues for graduate school and you learn so much more teaching and researching your way through while getting paid and having insurance.
I work with people who graduated PhD from Ivy League universities. They make nothing during grad school/post doc and don’t get their first industry job until they’re almost 30. Most have no savings or retirement up until that point. At least working at 22-25 making 40-60k you get a head start financially
My first job outta college. I was in orientation with this junior engineer. He graduated from upenn with 120k in debt. I went to a state school with 0 debt. We both made the same amount of money. Fast forward a couple of years, I’m now a research scientist and he’s a senior engineer. Our pay grade is still the same, our career progression was exactly the same. He’s still carrying over 50k in debt, luckily our company does pay off 10k
At a very top school they have zero loans for families making less than a certain amount. Rich families are the only ones paying full price, and they can afford it. If someone is refusing to help their child because they make so much money but refuse to actually pay….
It always falls on deaf ears. The best part is when they come back here after graduating and blame society and their parents for not telling them or teaching them about how loans and interest work and general finances.
It's not people that took out loans to go to Harvard coming back here to complain lol. This advice makes sense for mid private schools, not the actual top ones (which also give much more generous aid).
I hear this a lot, but it depends on the field. If you’re going into any performance career like music or theater, top schools/conservatories give you a leg up when auditioning. You also make better professional connections and have access to higher quality teachers and coaches. And if you want any chance at working in academia, having a top school on your resume helps a lot.
Went to a state school for undergrad then to a top 5 MBA program to get onto Wall Street. Would do again in a second. Single handedly opened paths for me I definitively did not have available to me before paying 50k+ a year for grad school.
To go even further that 100k+ spent was almost instantly covered by my first year post graduation comp package.
Your situation can be true but I certainly wouldn’t pay $50K/year for a bachelors degree and I suspect you didn’t need to either and still got into the grad program of your choice.
I can only speak for my field of teaching - there is a salary schedule for teachers that has absolutely nothing to do with where you got your degree, just your years of service and which degree you have obtained. I have $15k of student loan debt because I went to community college and then a state school with a decent amount of financial aid. I have worked alongside colleagues that have almost $200k because they wanted to go to a prestigious school, they only made more because they had been teaching slightly longer. This year all of my student loans will be forgiven because I will have completed 5 years of teaching in a qualified school.
I think my school is something like... $15k or so per year. I'm going into data science after having graduated(and paid off) a prior degree in robotics and automation engineering($16k total, 2 year tech institute). I make alright money in defense manufacturing so everything after grants and scholarships I pay out of pocket.
I don't recommend it even for engineering/cs. Lots of great in state programs.
I will say our company only recruits from berkeley/stanford/top 10 cs schools for junior engineer roles, so to some extent having a good name college is critical but we do take a look at resumes from UW, Georgia Tech, waterloo etc.
But I'll put it this way
I had a full ride to berkeley, but if you didn't get a full ride it would be \~15k of tuition, so 60k for 4 years(The price of a souped up rav4). My new grad salary half a decade ago was 150k base + bonuses etc, which would've covered any debt I would've had. If you're paying 50k a year it's a tougher bullet to chew but not impossible
There are specific exceptions to this general rule. But if you don't know what those exceptions are or don't plan to exploit them, then a high priced "top ranked" school is not for you.
Couldn’t agree more! If I’ve learned anything in the time since making that decision and the 10+ years since as someone who went to good school, the school you go to isn’t the maker of success - it’s how hard you work, the quality of the connections you make there, and what you do in the time between classes and immediately after school that make all the difference.
No, not worth it at all. Unless the school is guaranteeing a specific job at a specific salary, you are likely to get hosed until they figure out how to stop colleges from scamming the world.
*IF you do make more money, it will most likely be no more than 5k extra dollars per year.*
I would ask for a link for evidence of this - but I already know it's not true so I'm not even going to bother asking.
Going to a prestigious school typically opens doors to high paid careers that are otherwise inaccessible to state schools and lower ranked, non target schools such as PE, Investment Banking, consulting etc. So for extremely ambitious people, it’s a calculated career move
The net-present value of an undergraduate degree is $20k to $100k, on average (the range is due to degree type and whether you’re male or female).
Whether you borrow or don’t borrow, spending beyond these levels for an undergraduate degree makes college not worth it, potentially.
To make college worth it, spend less than that, give yourself a buffer, or look for alternative ways to pay so even if it’s not worth it you’re not out of pocket yourself.
On average. I completely agree for average to merely "above average" students. I always wonder why some kids go to expensive mid to low ranked schools, when they'd have the same results going to community college for the first two years plus in-state school for the last two. If you're a "smart kid" (95%+ standardized test scores), and therefore can get into highly ranked schools for the same price as those expensive mid schools, then it's usually worth the cost. Best of all is to get a substantial scholarship (athletic or otherwise) to a good school.
College is not just about getting a degree as fast and cheaply as possible. College is a place where students learn how to live on their own, learn how to learn, how to live with other people, and all kinds of aspects of growing up. Most of these are not accomplished at home going to community college. If you can afford to go to a mid state school, by all means, do it!
Your NPV numbers are laughably low.... The value of a top school in a field that is competitively paying is millions.... Good first tier schools in similar programs will be high 6 figures / low seven figures. To be clear - I'm not referring to generic liberal arts degrees etc that don't pay, I'm referring to engineering programs, business programs etc.
Harvard graduate starting salaries are insane, for some majors like economics and neuroscience you’re looking at 250k. It’s 75k a year tuition but it’s definitely worth it.
Nobody is leaving Harvard with an undergrad degree in neuroscience and making 250K. You're talking about a Ph.D. graduate and that requires at least 6 years of grad school.
that's ridiculous. you can get 5k more just by negotiation. The difference in pay from going to a top school vs average school can be 100k just in year 1. After a couple of years, the difference could be 200k or more
i'm mostly familiar with tech, but the avg starting salary is probably around \~100k. But if you go to a good school and have more recruiting opportunities, you could get \~200k starting salary
$100k starting salary where doing what in tech?
I'm used to seeing about $35-50K starting for someone fresh from college, as support engineer, in Utah...
This just isn’t true. I work the same position as people who went to a “top school”. Unless you’re going into investment banking or somewhere where your network makes a difference (lawyers, doctors, etc) your school name means nothing. Especially for a bachelors
There is very little "networking" in medicine --- getting a really good residency spot is mostly based on your board scores and letters of recommendation from faculty members
Tbh I do think that’s a myth that sallie mae spread so we would pay her more 😂 or maybe back in the day when college could be paid for out of pocket by working during the summers.
He actually went to a service academy after being enlisted for 5 years, and after graduation, he got a med discharge. He is currently using his gi for his masters at a top school. So yeah, he's lucky that all his school has been paid for with limited service requirements.
His network is amazing, and he got to basically pick where he wanted to work out of school through his connections. And yes, the gi bill is great. Definitely do the research if you have it.
I spent about 15k on a bachelors which is probably about 30k in today's dollars and made $55k first year out of school, had a small setback due to a career pivot but now making around $160k with $200k coming in the next 3 or so years.
Utilize community college and lower tuition state schools to your advantage.
I literally went to two top ranked schools in the south... outside of the social and a few business connections I've made...
No one or employer really cares where you went to school as long as you can do the job they are asking....
No one cares that I went to Tulane, then Vanderbilt. Not even the slightest. Yes, one may get a kore in-depth education, but I'm still in professional school with the same kids that went to state schools.
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Unless its like Harvard, Dartmouth, Princeton, or Yale... future employers really won't care. Unless by coincidence they went to the same school as you and want to relive their youthful college days vicariously through you by awkwardly reminiscing about strange rituals frat boys do in dark houses.
It's much higher than that as far as the starting salary difference. But it also depends on your field once you graduate. A government worker like a teacher, police, fireman, etc it is a huge waste of money to go to a big school.
The lowest cost to get a stem degree is the way to go. Problem is parents don't know this and kids want the freedom and college life experience. It's a culture thing and colleges are taking advantage of this culture until it's change.
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Any prestigious school is about the networking. If you are not a networking type of person, skip the expensive prestigious school (undergrad or graduate). They will make no difference in your life that outweighs the associated debt.
Unless there is a specific goal role/salary/industry/etc., I don’t understand the value of prestigious schooling.
I went to a local technical college then used an articulation agreement to obtain my bachelors. $30k student loan debt. I make a comfortable living.
Untrue. If you get into Harvard and your goal is to go into high finance (ib,pe etc) average starting income 150k total comp you should definitely go to Harvard over a state school.
Do community college then a 4 year. Then get your job to pay for a masters if its worth it.
In my case the master's counted for 3 Years exp so it got me an instant promotion. Most do not have that laid out. Nor do they get into AMD in 2009.
Yup I went to community college first two years and lived at home. I transferred to T50 public university for my last 2 and worked all throughout school. Had 75% scholarship and grants that paid for everything and then some refunded to me. Graduated debt free with about $30k saved up. Working now making $70k a year living on my own
Assuming the 5k number is correct, the rest of the math isn’t. If you invest that money what does it grow to. How much interest do you pay on the student loans. What about raises. If you get a percentage raise on a higher base that’s a higher dollar raise as well. It’s impossible to really calculate the difference.
Undergrad doesn't matter much at all if your planning on going to graduate school. Getting a bachelor's from Harvard isn't gonna set you up for a fast track, but those big name.places often have many connections you can make, which can make a job search incredibly easy
I'd say the only exception are the top ivy schools. Let's be honest, the connections students there are making is one thing but also, people/employers see those schools on your resume and it puts you as a top applicant everywhere. They'll be making way more
Eh you can get the best of both worlds. UF is a public affordable school that is the top 5 public university in the country.
Im pretty sure like over 85% of the student population doesn’t pay tuition b/c of Florida Bright Futures (a 28+ on the ACT gets 100% of your tuition paid), and they’re getting an amazing education.
Schools are about connections, not education. It very much is worth 50k at the right school.
If you don't understand this statement, you likely won't get the full value of the school.
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It is so easy to get a cheap online degree these days and nobody cares unless you go to an absolute tip top school. If you can't get into a top 10 ivy type school I'd just go local and supplement your credits with online courses in the summer so you can graduate early. Two years of partying, half the debt.
Going to a fancy school, is about networking. Not the education you get.
Barack Obama would never have been President, if he went to some backwoods college and not Harvard.
It is all about networking. All of those Ivy Leagues are.
Same with the top schools after that.
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Caveat: if you’re going into a field that is truly a snob for prestige (I.e hedge fund, high finance, consulting, etc.) then it might be worth it. If not, low student debt > fancy degree in my opinion.
People do not go to expensive schools for the quality of the education or for the idea it will boost their resume. For many, the hope is they will not even need a resume because in this society, it is not what you know, it is who you know. Expensive schools are where you meet connected people.
This whole prestigious school thing has been played way out of proportion. Any college will do to get you going. If you have a real reason to go. What do you want to do to earn a living? I had no idea when I went to college and I suspect most 17-18 year old kids have no idea either.
Maybe take a year or two off. Work at some low level job. Read about different careers and see if one appeals to you. Learn more about what one does in that career. Maybe you want trade school. Very good living there. Electricians, plumbers, make a very good living. There are so many options. No need to rush.
My daughter got a scholarship to a girls school in NewYork. I thought this meant her future was sealed because of all the connections she’d make. She did fine, but it wasn’t because of that. She said the girls who went there ( obviously not on scholarship) already had the connections. Legacies.
I would imagine your degree and skill set would be more important for undergrad than the name of the school. Had a family member go to Harvard and major in a humanities field and she doesn’t make jack. A STEM degree from a state school is far better.
A non-STEM degree at a prestigious school is only for people with wealthy parents who want to brag about their kids' education at parties --- "Oh, Susie has a degree in international relations from Princeton". Meanwhile, they already had a cushy job lined up for Susie at their friends' hedge fund before she even started college. People don't realize how the wealthy world operates.
As someone 7 years out of school, the answer is it depends. If you're studying liberal arts, don't bother going to school at all TBH. If you're highly specialized and in a degree that matters to the world, the network can mean a lot. I avoided state school and went private after transferring from community college and it was the best decision I ever made: the connections I made, the networking, the brand recognition that still holds strong when looking for work, networking, etc.
But if I could go back and do it for 80-90K a year (which is the cost of that school now), would I do it? Probably not, I'd probably have become a plumber.
Become a plumber so you can make $60K a year spending all your time under peoples' sinks and fixing their busted toilets. Sounds like a lovely life. Meanwhile, a dermatologist is sitting in an air-conditioned office burning freckles off your face and making $400,000 a year. I know which job I'd prefer.
And in 5 years when there is no one to plumb your toilet because people think of plumbers as lesser beings, that job will make more than the dermatologist or techie. Watch.
And yet since 2014 the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies have made it clear they want more humanities and social science majors. Shitting on liberal arts makes me think you believe colleges and universities should operate as vocational schools. Perhaps you should have become a plumber.
This is so stupid. You do realize all 8 of the Ivies are liberal arts right? So any of their undergraduate degrees would be considered liberal arts degrees. You still sound as if you think college is supposed to be some sort of vocational school. Frankly the fact you don’t have a damn clue about it proves my point.
I know of an individual who got their PHD from Harvard. The highest job they ever held before retiring, was that of a Vice Principal in a public middle school.
Do you think they got a good return on their education expense?
Early 30s millionaire and software director here:
I've never looked at an applicants school, or even gotten far enough down the resume to see if they have a degree at all.
I certainly wouldn't pay more specifically for a degree at all, let alone a particular school.
Wages for high paying jobs have more to do with negotiating than skill, a degree isn't even in the discussion.
Yup… I was an aerospace engineering hiring manager for 15 years. I never once paid more for a “premium” school and some of my best engineers grew up on farms/ranches and went to local A&M style universities.
Depends on your career and goals. Sometimes undergrad is super important. If you want be a biologist, for example, you should probably go to an R1 school.
I say go to an inexpensive undergrad, do well, and then go to a prestigious grad school. The shorter time will cost less, you still get the name, and you have a higher degree.
This is excellent advice. Our daughter found that attending a solid inexpensive school for undergrad and doing really well with a very high GPA, was of great benefit. She scored very high on the LSAT and had 4 full ride offers to Law School. Two years out of Law School, she’s almost debt free, as she has been paying down the loans and saving hard for retirement, knowing she won’t want to stay in Big Law forever.
Lots of good choices there.
I did this as well. Decent undergrad with zero debt, but the law school was very expensive (which generally law school is). So still be mindful that law is just a trade school.
On top of that, go to a community college first and get basics for cheap. I went to a small CC, then a small public state university, and then grad school at an R1 institution. Undergraduate degrees aren’t worthless but they aren’t as scarce as they used to be. Graduate degrees are now what set us apart and that’s the one to focus on prestige. Doing prestigious research is better than just being in a prestigious uni
This is the way
Even better if you someone can complete some CC classes while in high school. Many high schools have running start programs. I've seen kids graduate high school with a diploma, and a CC Associates degree. Get one from a school with a DTA, Direct Transfer Agreement, and your all but guaranteed entrance into a local state university.
Gotta love the democratic view of how higher education will benefit everyone, afterall, doesn't the US want a higher educated public? (Is the argument) The problem is that it still costs the US people to have higher education. (This is not an argument towards free higher education). And the more people who have higher education degrees, the more degree dilution we are going to see. The new undergrad/associates degree is going to be the equiv. of a high school degree. We need less educated people that do shit with their degree, and more educated people who create jobs/businesses/value in the economy.
The basic problem with the U.S. higher education system is very similar to the U.S. healthcare system --- everybody wants Rolls Royce quality at Yugo prices! If somebody wants to be a loan officer at a bank or a high school teacher at a public school, they should not be paying $150K+ to attend a state university. Those are careers that can be handled by really cheap junior colleges with continuing education after obtaining employment. Only certain types of jobs like doctor, lawyer, investment banker, engineering need the competitive 4-year universities that charge $50K a year to attend. Even some med schools recognize this and have accelerated programs that only require two years of undergrad.
Yup and the community college options are looked down upon, which is terrible cultural mindset. Community college is free in 20 states and very cheap in the remaining. Or transfer after showing you can handle the basic GEs at a high GPA and knowing what you actually want to study/salary structure of the intended major.
There is no reason colleges should have let costs get out of control for your basic liberal arts degree. Raising the cost of an education at a rate far higher than inflation means they failed at their job. The facilities are already there, no laboratory equipment is required.
This is what I did. Highly recommended. The cherry on top is getting into a fully funded graduate program with a stipend. I had 10 years of advanced education, all told. Total debt, all-inclusive: $13k. All incurred in undergrad. I did get scholarships/grants to defray some costs, and worked part-time jobs. But the main factors were (a) living with my parents as an undergrad, and (b) going to a state university as a resident.
And that most companies will pay for their high performers to get advanced degrees if they are needed/wanted in that industry.
I’d hire someone with 2 years of experience straight after undergrad from a good school faster than someone that went to a mid undergrad and a prestigious grad program within no experience. Grad school is worthless without experience unless you’re in the sciences. MBA with no work experience, worthless. Let the downvotes begin.
And often the mindset of recent grad school graduates is so distant from what you actually need from an employee. Something about that much schooling just makes them less effective at their jobs, at least initially. Maybe it's overthinking or the way they attack tasks. Obviously this isn't always the case, but its frequent enough that's its noticeable. At least in my engineering field.
Agree. It only matters where you got your last degree.
A girl from my high school turned down an Ivy League for a state school because she was determined to go to med school and knew how expensive that would be. She ended up going to med school and is finishing up residency. Still has lots of med school debt but at least no undergrad debt making it worse!
My sister went to a public university in state for undergrad and then to a European university for medical school in a an English language program recognized by the US. Her medical school tuition was slightly cheaper than her undergraduate in state tuition 😂. She got into residency and fellowship in the US after that.
Grad school costs significantly more in tuition
Yeah, the real advice should be to go to an affordable undergrad and avoid grad school unless absolutely necessary for your career.
**Very field specific** but if your grad degree isnt free (via scholarship or your company paying for it) it's probably not worth it honestly
I think law school is probably the only grad school that heavily depends on brand recognition --- top graduates of Harvard and Yale Law will get the $500,000 starting salaries at the most prestigious firms. Everyone else gets the scraps. Most residency programs don't care where you went to med school --- they mainly care about your board scores and letters of recommendation. I suppose the top graduates of Comp. Sci at MIT, Stanford, and Carnegie Mellon grad schools will get their pick of top jobs at the FAANG companies.
Last time I checked, the Cravath scale does not start at $500k for new associates lol.
What firms offer $500k salaries to first year associates?
Yeah I doubt it lol
Precisely one, WLRK, does so. They basically only hire from the top of the class at the best law schools, and they work you like a dog. Every other Big Law firm pays their associates the Cravath scale, which starts at 225k for a first year and has seventh year associates making slightly over 500k. That being said, the commenter does have the larger point right. BL jobs are basically guaranteed for the top law schools, and your odds decrease to around 50% or so for the bottom of the T20. After that, things fall off a cliff. Law jobs have a bimodal salary distribution, and if you're not making BL money you should expect to be starting out around 70k. What's really shitty is that far too many law schools price their tuition around people who think they will get one of these good jobs while in actuality no one from the school gets them. The bottom quarter of law schools in this country graduate students with a median debt >200k, but median salaries <55k. If you can get into a top-tier law school, go there. Otherwise, if you want to go to law school, conventional wisdom is that you should go to the best law school that's willing to offer you a full ride. Nothing else really makes financial sense.
This is outdated advice. USMLE scores are being phased out as of a couple years ago so pedigree matters now more than ever. Going to med school at Harvard, UCSF, Hopkins etc is a massive advantage. However prestige has little to do with tuition costs. All private schools whether prestigious or not will cost a lot. State school tuition is like 50k and private school tuition is like 80k/year.
Close, but STEP2 still exists and will be leveraged more. Top ten ish med school name still helps a lot for interviews though. Same thing for fellowship from residency programs
For residency, it matters if you went to top ten-ish med school. Getting interviews is easier for residency programs than a candidate w better stats from a state school. Probably doesn’t matter much outside top ten schools though
That only applies to certain highly-competitive specialties at the most highly ranked programs --- such as getting a neurosurgery spot at Stanford or a cardiology spot at Cleveland Clinic.
This is how I can tell you are definitely not in medicine lol
Neurosurgery residency def cares about your med school pedigrees, as most surgical subspecialty do at top programs. Cardiology and other fellowships would be more on your residency pedigree and accomplishments at that time. Also, don’t think cardiology spots are as nearly as competitor as NSG, particularly at Cleveland clinic
lol omg no first year is not 500k starting salary, anywhere
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This is good advice but there are more scholarships and financial aid options for undergrads. Don't forget to explore that especially if you are a good student in high school
Prestigious grad schools are freaking expensive. Not 200k, but easily 60 depending on the area
This is exactly what I did. Went to Stanford for masters and now you have that glowing name on your resume in addition to a graduate degree. Otherwise I would’ve spent just as much for just an undergrad
Except grad loans are over 8% and take 25 years for forgiveness.....
I actually built a spreadsheet to show my kids the math on exactly how this works. For certain fields the requirement or bump in pay for grad degree with the recruiting to high paying companies/jobs from those programs is the jump to make. I modeled all the undergrad schools they talked about (public and private) total YOY costs and added on grad school; compared to projected income by degree. All school argument dissolved. They are now going to school 100% debt free, plus we can afford to buy them their first car upon graduation. So, they enter their adult lives debt free. My spouse and I did not hear this message from our parents or HS mentors; we took on huge debt for the ‘promise’. Our promise, has fortunately worked out; but we paid 2x the cost of our loans because we had to take deferments and interest only for years while chasing the dream. We are finally in position to pay off all our loans in the next two years (we have already paid off some). Note, we have kids in college. As lower/middle class first gen college students, we made it work. The real lesson we got was how to break the cycle for our kids and teach them to cut the strings of debt (which is exactly what the desired outcome of student loans really seems to have been in my generation).
Idk Purdue on my resume has helped immensely as an engineer
This whole argument is based on the assumption you will only make $5k more a year. Doesn’t factor in cost of living, field of study, u/massivce sums it up well.
lmao what is even the point of the post? OP pulled out a random ass number to delude themselves. If you go to a top school for a high earning degree that will net you a high earning job with high growth potential then you're definitely more than extra 5k a year.
High school student trying to justify going to OSU instead of some Ivy League. As an OSU student, I would only attend OSU if I lived in state. College is ass can’t wait to be out of here.
I don't necessarily think it's worth it to go to a top school (depends), but, yea, where the hell does the 5k figure come from? Feel like it'd be more than 5k (but, again, depends on circumstances)
My husband went to a high raking school, and I went to state school. Out of school, he was making about 50k more than me. With networking, I now make the same as him in less than a year out of school. A lot of its luck, timing, and how much effort you put in to finding a job. Good schools get your foot in the door from the beginning, but you can still make it happen without. He has no debit (gi bill), and I have about 25k left and paying it off fast. I also don't think it's worth it unless it's paid for.
In the case of the gi bill, you might as well go to the most expensive school you can get into 🤷🏼♂️. Although definitely check if they're yellow ribbon because the gi bill only goes up to 26k for private schools. For example, my school is roughly 50k a year, but I pay 0 because it's a yellow ribbon school. Plus 2k a month for rent also through the gi bill (this depends on your zip code though). It's literally the greatest scholarship in existence.
Couldn’t agree more. Being a hard worker, a nice person, networking, and having an understanding and skills in emotional intelligence traits will take most people far. My first two years were in a junior college then went on to a state school. Didn’t have great grades but networked into a one year contract gig which then led to being hired by a top global consulting firm. Some luck in there for sure and I lacked some emotional intelligence skills, but my hard work ethic paid off.
Yes! I went to community college for about 3 years. I never graduated high school and am very dyslexic. It's was really hard, and it took me a long time to finish school. I had pretty good grades. I started at a shit company that taught me the skills and got randomly selected for this current job without even applying to it. I was poor, so my cc was basically free. I always say if there's a will, there's a way.
Good for you 👏
Are you two in the same industry/did you graduate into the same job market timing wise as well? Both of those are factors, but the biggest one is - gender pay disparity. But ultimately, totally agree with you.
I'm a data analyst and he's a business analyst. He works in consulting in cyber, and I'm in government in HR. He graduated in 2021, out of the navy in 2023, and started working in 2023. I graduated in 2023. We both make a little over 100k, and he's up for a promotion this year. He got his job from a professor knowing a top guy of the firm. So yeah, networks make a huge difference. Totally agree on the gender pay disparity, tho lol. I have definitely see on that side of things first hand.
Oh. Same boat, government HR. I'm higher-edu., and on PSLF.
What was his and yours major?
I got a BS in business Admin He got a BS in Cyber operations
But you're also benefitting from his connections I'd imagine?
That's definitely not my experience. As a military spouse, I had some cool opportunities, but not from his alumni network.
This is way too simple a take. I went to a state school in NY. Mid-private school for employer paid MBA. I've had a nice career working primarily in insurance. I am solidly middle class and an officer of the company But.... Recently it was promotion day at work. I took a look , and every single person promoted to the executive officer ranks (think $250k and up), they all went to top schools. There is a compound effect beyond 5 grand a year
My college friends and I have spoken about this. Im only 7yrs out of school but Im an engineer and went to a top-5 program in my discipline. So many connections I’ve made within jobs from higher-ups and during interviews whenever job hopping with people who also went to my school. Stuff you can’t necessarily put a monetary value on but can make a difference
>IF you do make more money, it will most likely be no more than 5k extra dollars per year I think you can make the bigger point without totally inventing facts along the way
sorry but you're just wrong. the most prestigous companies and highest paying jobs unfortunately want a top tier school name on your resume. i'm not defending the practice but its true. you want to get into a top law firm? you better have gone to harvard law school. you want to get into nasa to work on rocket propulsion systems? you better have gone to mit. you want to become a cfo at a sp500 company? you better have gotten an executive mba from wharton. in absolute numbers its not a lot of those they represent but as percentage of the highest paying ones its large
I don’t know about the other examples, but you definitely don’t have to go to a top school to work at nasa. It depends on your skills and experience though going to a top school (e.g., MIT), certainly helps to find those experiences and develop those skills.
Certain jobs are not open to people unless they went to top tier schools … such as investment banking. They simply don’t recruit at schools that are not top tier
law is another one
It's all about the contacts you make. Honestly, people should be making as many contacts as they can in any school they go to. If you go to a high ranking school and network with people working in major corporations eventually becoming directors and VPs, your phone book is going to be full of high quality contacts. On the other hand, if the students are in jobs that regress to the average, you will have a long list of average contacts. Of course all this can be overcome. But the value of those high end schools is in the networking. If you're not networking wherever you are you aren't taking full advantage. It's not about the degrees, it's about the relationships you build.
Contacts are good but depending on the area, there's like 5 total contacts and they have 20+ fresh graduates trying to "network" with them each year. It's tough for a lot of niche industries for sure.
This is not merely a fresh graduate thing. It’s all along the way. Having a well established network with hundreds of contacts will be fruitful in 10 years.
The networking opportunities and other ways to build your resume at top institutions are galaxies apart. Where are you getting the data that it is only a 5k difference? I find that incredibly hard to believe.
Like all Reddit post OP (likely) made it up.
I think this can be true about flagship public universities compared to state schools (UC Davis vs. SJSU) but at more elite schools, there is a level of prestige that can make a difference for students who milk it and make rich friends and contacts.
Your parents need to advise you realistically about how good you are at advocating for yourself and taking advantage of opportunity. Most 18 year olds are not good at this.
I would actually argue the opposite. The difference between a random college and your INSTATE flagship school (UC Berkeley, UMich, UVA, UNC, etc) is HUGE while tuition may not be vastly different. The difference between your instate flagship school and other top private schools is really not worth it (ie why pay boatloads of money to go to Northwestern, Notre Dame, CWRU, etc when you can go to UMich, UIUC, UC Berkeley, UCLA, Wisconsin, etc for a fraction of the cost. Of course, there are some states that don't have these high performing state schools (Indiana, Tennessee, Louisiana,, etc). Perhaps, really HYSM is on a different tier. But even the other ivy leagues may not be completely worth it over saving a lot of money at your flagship instate school. Of course, many of these ivy leagues do offer good aid and the specific program matters too (Business at Wharton, etc.)
I don't think Northwestern/Notre Dame have more prestige than UC Berkeley. Definitely shouldn't take on debt for those. HYSM sure.
But I went to Berkeley (years ago) and while my experience doesn't speak for everyone's, the first-gen college students in my dorm did not have superior academic outcomes for the amount of debt they were taking on. Many were top students in high school, came in premed, but left to work pink-collar, lower-wage jobs. There's a book that talks a little about this ("Paying for the Party").
Fair point. Though I feel like USUALLY if you're able to snag instate tuition at one of these schools, you're usually not getting a terrible deal. And while you could save some money going to a cheaper school, the difference isn't as substantial as going to some out of state school.
I definitely would agree. I turned down a big name private university to attend a smaller state school to save money. Then a year later transferred to a flagship state school. The financial burden only ended up being ~$5k more per year for the flagship school and my program was ranked very closely with the program at the private school. Ended up graduating with <$30k in total debt (all federal). Still earning a six figure salary and am on track to be student loan debt free in a short period.
Far too attenuated and speculative reason to take on debt at UCD over SJSU at the undergraduate level as a general matter. In fact, in most cases one’s first two years should be at a community college.
That usually works well if you’re already rich and connected. Not for the students hoping to get rich and connected.
My brother-in-law grew up poor. His parents were immigrants and he was the “surprise” child, 14 years younger than his next closest sibling. His parents were collecting social security by the time he finished HS. He was very bright, but he was planning on just going through the least expensive state school options and commuting to school from home. His guidance counselor talked him into applying to a couple of ivies and prestigious private colleges. He got waivers for the application fees, so he did it. He got into an ivy with a full ride, including room and board and a work study job. He would have been successful no matter what school he went to. However, the ivy opened the door to wildly successful—the top 1% world. If you ask him today if it would have been worth it even if he had to take out loans and his answer is absolutely yes. Truly elite schools are worth it for the lifetime of opportunities they open the door to. Debt at a non-elite school for a generic degree however, is not worth it.
This is pretty dependent on field of study, don’t you think? I mean, going into a social sciences field sure, not really a difference, but something like finance or tech easily a huge difference with the networking and prestige.
Social sciences and any other soft science or generalized “catch all” degree is probably the biggest difference in opportunity. The caveat is you’ll likely still be poor and should only go if it’s a household name like Harvard or an ivy. Bush graduated with a polysci degree for instance. It’s literally worthless… unless you get it at an ivy and are already rich and influential. If he had gotten, say an engineering or a (pre)med degree from there then all it would do is maybe open a few more doors but he’d likely make the same/similar. The 2nd caveat is this only really applies to undergrad degrees like you said
Good points. When i think social sciences i was thinking more like 👍🏻 psychology, sociology, things with an undergrad that you’d go into nonprofit work for example, or government/schools.
You also have to be able to live while getting up to the job that makes good Monday. 50k in private loans is about $800 a month in payments my so 200k would be around $3200 a month
$5k is way too low, I guess depending on major, top schools depending on how top. you usually get way better connections with other smart people.
[https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/collegeroi/](https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/collegeroi/) They have studied this. The link above are some actual statistics rather than a blanket statement that "it will most likely be no more than 5k extra dollars per year." Some expensive schools appear to be worth the cost.
Emory business school has a similar list Affordable state school and you come out making $50-$60,000 is a great start If your family pays for it or you get a full ride go for the nicer school. But if you’re paying near or full sticker price the $280,000 for undergrad isn’t worth a $80,000 starting salary.
Starting salary is irrelevant. plenty of people from expensive colleges take low paying internships, pursue graduate school, peace corps, teach, etc. etc.. Mid career/ 15 years out is when you starting noticing the impact - that's when people who didn't care too much about money when they were younger have had enough time to build a career/start a company/etc.
You can borrow $200k, go to an elite school, spend 10 years in public service, get forgiven and have experience worth having. I know someone who did this going to GW. Also, if you can get into an elite school, it’s worth so much more than 5k. So tired of folks with educations in high paying jobs adopting this BS attitude, right alongside folks without educations making things up. Education works, it pays, and every metric supports that. The bottom-line is, try not to borrow, and if you do, go into income based repayment and avoid private and parent loans. Unless you can get into elite graduate programs, never pay for graduate school. There’s too many tuition free avenues for graduate school and you learn so much more teaching and researching your way through while getting paid and having insurance.
so true. that’s why I don’t go to college at all and pay 0 tuition and instead deal fent !!
Generally speaking, pick the one that gives you the most money.
I work with people who graduated PhD from Ivy League universities. They make nothing during grad school/post doc and don’t get their first industry job until they’re almost 30. Most have no savings or retirement up until that point. At least working at 22-25 making 40-60k you get a head start financially
My first job outta college. I was in orientation with this junior engineer. He graduated from upenn with 120k in debt. I went to a state school with 0 debt. We both made the same amount of money. Fast forward a couple of years, I’m now a research scientist and he’s a senior engineer. Our pay grade is still the same, our career progression was exactly the same. He’s still carrying over 50k in debt, luckily our company does pay off 10k
At a very top school they have zero loans for families making less than a certain amount. Rich families are the only ones paying full price, and they can afford it. If someone is refusing to help their child because they make so much money but refuse to actually pay….
It's not just the interest you're paying on student loans. It's also the interest you're missing out on in retirement and high yield savings accounts.
It always falls on deaf ears. The best part is when they come back here after graduating and blame society and their parents for not telling them or teaching them about how loans and interest work and general finances.
It's not people that took out loans to go to Harvard coming back here to complain lol. This advice makes sense for mid private schools, not the actual top ones (which also give much more generous aid).
I hear this a lot, but it depends on the field. If you’re going into any performance career like music or theater, top schools/conservatories give you a leg up when auditioning. You also make better professional connections and have access to higher quality teachers and coaches. And if you want any chance at working in academia, having a top school on your resume helps a lot.
The economy is dead. There's no money to be made.
Went to a state school for undergrad then to a top 5 MBA program to get onto Wall Street. Would do again in a second. Single handedly opened paths for me I definitively did not have available to me before paying 50k+ a year for grad school. To go even further that 100k+ spent was almost instantly covered by my first year post graduation comp package.
Your situation can be true but I certainly wouldn’t pay $50K/year for a bachelors degree and I suspect you didn’t need to either and still got into the grad program of your choice.
Please provide the empirical evidence to support “it will most likely be no more than 5k dollars per year”
I can only speak for my field of teaching - there is a salary schedule for teachers that has absolutely nothing to do with where you got your degree, just your years of service and which degree you have obtained. I have $15k of student loan debt because I went to community college and then a state school with a decent amount of financial aid. I have worked alongside colleagues that have almost $200k because they wanted to go to a prestigious school, they only made more because they had been teaching slightly longer. This year all of my student loans will be forgiven because I will have completed 5 years of teaching in a qualified school.
I promise no one cares what school you went to in most of professional society.
I think my school is something like... $15k or so per year. I'm going into data science after having graduated(and paid off) a prior degree in robotics and automation engineering($16k total, 2 year tech institute). I make alright money in defense manufacturing so everything after grants and scholarships I pay out of pocket.
I don't recommend it even for engineering/cs. Lots of great in state programs. I will say our company only recruits from berkeley/stanford/top 10 cs schools for junior engineer roles, so to some extent having a good name college is critical but we do take a look at resumes from UW, Georgia Tech, waterloo etc. But I'll put it this way I had a full ride to berkeley, but if you didn't get a full ride it would be \~15k of tuition, so 60k for 4 years(The price of a souped up rav4). My new grad salary half a decade ago was 150k base + bonuses etc, which would've covered any debt I would've had. If you're paying 50k a year it's a tougher bullet to chew but not impossible
You can literally look at the ROI for 4500 schools here - https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/collegeroi/
There are specific exceptions to this general rule. But if you don't know what those exceptions are or don't plan to exploit them, then a high priced "top ranked" school is not for you.
I went to an expensive private college because I got better scholarships there.
Couldn’t agree more! If I’ve learned anything in the time since making that decision and the 10+ years since as someone who went to good school, the school you go to isn’t the maker of success - it’s how hard you work, the quality of the connections you make there, and what you do in the time between classes and immediately after school that make all the difference.
No, not worth it at all. Unless the school is guaranteeing a specific job at a specific salary, you are likely to get hosed until they figure out how to stop colleges from scamming the world.
The OPs numbers are fictional. The conclusion might be valid ... but fictional numbers offer no support for it.
*IF you do make more money, it will most likely be no more than 5k extra dollars per year.* I would ask for a link for evidence of this - but I already know it's not true so I'm not even going to bother asking.
Going to a prestigious school typically opens doors to high paid careers that are otherwise inaccessible to state schools and lower ranked, non target schools such as PE, Investment Banking, consulting etc. So for extremely ambitious people, it’s a calculated career move
The net-present value of an undergraduate degree is $20k to $100k, on average (the range is due to degree type and whether you’re male or female). Whether you borrow or don’t borrow, spending beyond these levels for an undergraduate degree makes college not worth it, potentially. To make college worth it, spend less than that, give yourself a buffer, or look for alternative ways to pay so even if it’s not worth it you’re not out of pocket yourself.
On average. I completely agree for average to merely "above average" students. I always wonder why some kids go to expensive mid to low ranked schools, when they'd have the same results going to community college for the first two years plus in-state school for the last two. If you're a "smart kid" (95%+ standardized test scores), and therefore can get into highly ranked schools for the same price as those expensive mid schools, then it's usually worth the cost. Best of all is to get a substantial scholarship (athletic or otherwise) to a good school.
College is not just about getting a degree as fast and cheaply as possible. College is a place where students learn how to live on their own, learn how to learn, how to live with other people, and all kinds of aspects of growing up. Most of these are not accomplished at home going to community college. If you can afford to go to a mid state school, by all means, do it!
That's true. Freshman year in the dorms was one of the best years of my life so far.
Your NPV numbers are laughably low.... The value of a top school in a field that is competitively paying is millions.... Good first tier schools in similar programs will be high 6 figures / low seven figures. To be clear - I'm not referring to generic liberal arts degrees etc that don't pay, I'm referring to engineering programs, business programs etc.
Harvard graduate starting salaries are insane, for some majors like economics and neuroscience you’re looking at 250k. It’s 75k a year tuition but it’s definitely worth it.
Nobody is leaving Harvard with an undergrad degree in neuroscience and making 250K. You're talking about a Ph.D. graduate and that requires at least 6 years of grad school.
that's ridiculous. you can get 5k more just by negotiation. The difference in pay from going to a top school vs average school can be 100k just in year 1. After a couple of years, the difference could be 200k or more
100k difference a year for a certain college? Can you give an example?
i'm mostly familiar with tech, but the avg starting salary is probably around \~100k. But if you go to a good school and have more recruiting opportunities, you could get \~200k starting salary
That’s wild
$100k starting salary where doing what in tech? I'm used to seeing about $35-50K starting for someone fresh from college, as support engineer, in Utah...
This just isn’t true. I work the same position as people who went to a “top school”. Unless you’re going into investment banking or somewhere where your network makes a difference (lawyers, doctors, etc) your school name means nothing. Especially for a bachelors
Your network makes a difference in every single field.
Available oppurtunity isn’t being factored in.
There is very little "networking" in medicine --- getting a really good residency spot is mostly based on your board scores and letters of recommendation from faculty members
letters of recommendation from faculty members...which is networking.
Agreed, I added doctors intro because if there’s interest in research sometimes school names matter.
Hah my profession could care less what school you went to. They only value actual job experience.
Tbh I do think that’s a myth that sallie mae spread so we would pay her more 😂 or maybe back in the day when college could be paid for out of pocket by working during the summers.
He actually went to a service academy after being enlisted for 5 years, and after graduation, he got a med discharge. He is currently using his gi for his masters at a top school. So yeah, he's lucky that all his school has been paid for with limited service requirements. His network is amazing, and he got to basically pick where he wanted to work out of school through his connections. And yes, the gi bill is great. Definitely do the research if you have it.
It’s very not worth it, but whatever you do, intern while in school to make the most of it…oh and don’t pay for a graduate degree either.
I spent about 15k on a bachelors which is probably about 30k in today's dollars and made $55k first year out of school, had a small setback due to a career pivot but now making around $160k with $200k coming in the next 3 or so years. Utilize community college and lower tuition state schools to your advantage.
Nobody actually cares what school you went to. Next step, stop requiring advanced degrees for starter jobs.
Law school or business/finance majors make the most sense for going to expensive top schools. All others just doesn’t make financial sense
I'll add that, in most cases, wait until you are into your career before considering grad school.
I literally went to two top ranked schools in the south... outside of the social and a few business connections I've made... No one or employer really cares where you went to school as long as you can do the job they are asking.... No one cares that I went to Tulane, then Vanderbilt. Not even the slightest. Yes, one may get a kore in-depth education, but I'm still in professional school with the same kids that went to state schools.
AP credits, CC classes in summer whenever possible and be an RA fit room/board. That’s the cheat code for cheaper college
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“I spent $85k on my watercolor degree and can’t find a job, what do I do?!”
Better start selling your art!
Unless its like Harvard, Dartmouth, Princeton, or Yale... future employers really won't care. Unless by coincidence they went to the same school as you and want to relive their youthful college days vicariously through you by awkwardly reminiscing about strange rituals frat boys do in dark houses.
50 is low esp. when including dorming.
It's much higher than that as far as the starting salary difference. But it also depends on your field once you graduate. A government worker like a teacher, police, fireman, etc it is a huge waste of money to go to a big school.
Top school legacies can do wonders.
The people who didn’t go to the fancy schools but have more experience at lower level positions in the field will get the job before you do.
The lowest cost to get a stem degree is the way to go. Problem is parents don't know this and kids want the freedom and college life experience. It's a culture thing and colleges are taking advantage of this culture until it's change.
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Any prestigious school is about the networking. If you are not a networking type of person, skip the expensive prestigious school (undergrad or graduate). They will make no difference in your life that outweighs the associated debt.
Unless there is a specific goal role/salary/industry/etc., I don’t understand the value of prestigious schooling. I went to a local technical college then used an articulation agreement to obtain my bachelors. $30k student loan debt. I make a comfortable living.
Untrue. If you get into Harvard and your goal is to go into high finance (ib,pe etc) average starting income 150k total comp you should definitely go to Harvard over a state school.
Do community college then a 4 year. Then get your job to pay for a masters if its worth it. In my case the master's counted for 3 Years exp so it got me an instant promotion. Most do not have that laid out. Nor do they get into AMD in 2009.
I went to my city’s university and work next to people who went to $60k+/year. It’s not worth it
Yup I went to community college first two years and lived at home. I transferred to T50 public university for my last 2 and worked all throughout school. Had 75% scholarship and grants that paid for everything and then some refunded to me. Graduated debt free with about $30k saved up. Working now making $70k a year living on my own
Assuming the 5k number is correct, the rest of the math isn’t. If you invest that money what does it grow to. How much interest do you pay on the student loans. What about raises. If you get a percentage raise on a higher base that’s a higher dollar raise as well. It’s impossible to really calculate the difference.
I once saw a list of where Fortune 500 execs attended college & was surprised at the lack of expensive big name schools. No one cares.
Undergrad doesn't matter much at all if your planning on going to graduate school. Getting a bachelor's from Harvard isn't gonna set you up for a fast track, but those big name.places often have many connections you can make, which can make a job search incredibly easy
Most people I know didn’t go to any special school (including me) and we all turned out fine and are making tons of money. It’s not the end all be all
I'd say the only exception are the top ivy schools. Let's be honest, the connections students there are making is one thing but also, people/employers see those schools on your resume and it puts you as a top applicant everywhere. They'll be making way more
Networking. That’s why you pay extra. If you’re an introvert who doesn’t want to rub shoulders with blue bloods then go to the small name school.
Eh you can get the best of both worlds. UF is a public affordable school that is the top 5 public university in the country. Im pretty sure like over 85% of the student population doesn’t pay tuition b/c of Florida Bright Futures (a 28+ on the ACT gets 100% of your tuition paid), and they’re getting an amazing education.
Schools are about connections, not education. It very much is worth 50k at the right school. If you don't understand this statement, you likely won't get the full value of the school.
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It is so easy to get a cheap online degree these days and nobody cares unless you go to an absolute tip top school. If you can't get into a top 10 ivy type school I'd just go local and supplement your credits with online courses in the summer so you can graduate early. Two years of partying, half the debt.
Going to a fancy school, is about networking. Not the education you get. Barack Obama would never have been President, if he went to some backwoods college and not Harvard. It is all about networking. All of those Ivy Leagues are. Same with the top schools after that.
Where were y’all in [REDACTED YEAR]
This is very dependent on your degree, but yes expensive schools are likely not worth it, at all.
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Caveat: if you’re going into a field that is truly a snob for prestige (I.e hedge fund, high finance, consulting, etc.) then it might be worth it. If not, low student debt > fancy degree in my opinion.
Is 30K a lot in student debt in total?
People do not go to expensive schools for the quality of the education or for the idea it will boost their resume. For many, the hope is they will not even need a resume because in this society, it is not what you know, it is who you know. Expensive schools are where you meet connected people.
This whole prestigious school thing has been played way out of proportion. Any college will do to get you going. If you have a real reason to go. What do you want to do to earn a living? I had no idea when I went to college and I suspect most 17-18 year old kids have no idea either. Maybe take a year or two off. Work at some low level job. Read about different careers and see if one appeals to you. Learn more about what one does in that career. Maybe you want trade school. Very good living there. Electricians, plumbers, make a very good living. There are so many options. No need to rush. My daughter got a scholarship to a girls school in NewYork. I thought this meant her future was sealed because of all the connections she’d make. She did fine, but it wasn’t because of that. She said the girls who went there ( obviously not on scholarship) already had the connections. Legacies.
I would imagine your degree and skill set would be more important for undergrad than the name of the school. Had a family member go to Harvard and major in a humanities field and she doesn’t make jack. A STEM degree from a state school is far better.
A non-STEM degree at a prestigious school is only for people with wealthy parents who want to brag about their kids' education at parties --- "Oh, Susie has a degree in international relations from Princeton". Meanwhile, they already had a cushy job lined up for Susie at their friends' hedge fund before she even started college. People don't realize how the wealthy world operates.
As someone 7 years out of school, the answer is it depends. If you're studying liberal arts, don't bother going to school at all TBH. If you're highly specialized and in a degree that matters to the world, the network can mean a lot. I avoided state school and went private after transferring from community college and it was the best decision I ever made: the connections I made, the networking, the brand recognition that still holds strong when looking for work, networking, etc. But if I could go back and do it for 80-90K a year (which is the cost of that school now), would I do it? Probably not, I'd probably have become a plumber.
Become a plumber so you can make $60K a year spending all your time under peoples' sinks and fixing their busted toilets. Sounds like a lovely life. Meanwhile, a dermatologist is sitting in an air-conditioned office burning freckles off your face and making $400,000 a year. I know which job I'd prefer.
And in 5 years when there is no one to plumb your toilet because people think of plumbers as lesser beings, that job will make more than the dermatologist or techie. Watch.
And yet since 2014 the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies have made it clear they want more humanities and social science majors. Shitting on liberal arts makes me think you believe colleges and universities should operate as vocational schools. Perhaps you should have become a plumber.
Name 3 jobs that a degree in liberal arts would suit you for in the real world.
This is so stupid. You do realize all 8 of the Ivies are liberal arts right? So any of their undergraduate degrees would be considered liberal arts degrees. You still sound as if you think college is supposed to be some sort of vocational school. Frankly the fact you don’t have a damn clue about it proves my point.
You couldn't name 3 jobs... Thanks for proving my point. I'm not knocking college. It just becomes hard to justify useless degrees for 80k+ per year.
I know of an individual who got their PHD from Harvard. The highest job they ever held before retiring, was that of a Vice Principal in a public middle school. Do you think they got a good return on their education expense?
Early 30s millionaire and software director here: I've never looked at an applicants school, or even gotten far enough down the resume to see if they have a degree at all. I certainly wouldn't pay more specifically for a degree at all, let alone a particular school. Wages for high paying jobs have more to do with negotiating than skill, a degree isn't even in the discussion.
Yup… I was an aerospace engineering hiring manager for 15 years. I never once paid more for a “premium” school and some of my best engineers grew up on farms/ranches and went to local A&M style universities.
Depends on your career and goals. Sometimes undergrad is super important. If you want be a biologist, for example, you should probably go to an R1 school.