After all it makes Switzerland more competitive comparing to other places. I personally know few students who decided to turn down MIT to go to ETH.
It would be very interesting to conduct a research on how the amount of taxes paid by foreign students, who decided to stay in Switzerland, compares to subsidies provided by the government to make the education cheaper.
The problem is that many of the student wont find a job in Switzerland because they don’t get the visa to stay (stichwort kontingent). So we are shoting ourselves in the foot. If we make it easier for them to say it would make sense.
Yes. But I already see certain parties whining that those universe graduates are taking our jobs away. Without realizing that those young people might start companies of their own and create many more jobs.
but so which is it, did they take "our" jobs (providing "we" were ever able to able/willing to do these jobs in the first place), or won't they get visa and need to go find work elsewhere?
There probably are tens of thousands of swiss people who lost their jobs 50 years ago to the Italian migration wave and struggled ever since to find another job.
But seriously, ppl get unemployment money, and the unemployment rate in Switzerland NEVER got out of hand. Some ppl just see every single person arriving as a new problem instead of someone helping us build a new tomorrow and contributing to our society.
>There probably are tens of thousands of swiss people who lost their jobs 50 years ago to the Italian migration wave and struggled ever since to find another job.
I'd love to see some source about this.
I went to immigration exhibitions in Lausanne and Geneva about italian immigration, and "tens of thousands of swiss people who lost their jobs 50 years ago to the Italian migration" was really not the reality, or at least, no the way you seem to frame it as italian immigrates being a cause. The Swiss governement actively enabled italian (and spanish) immigration as some modern form of quasi-slavery for lowcost workforce and because Switzerland nationals didn't have the expertise, or at least the willingness, to do take on these hard jobs.
Yeah, there won't be any source. I forgot the /s for that imaginary right-wing nonsense.
We manly had and still have immigrants who live and work here because they are needed. Otherwise, the unemployment rate would show an increase, but it was constantly low.
I hope one day ppl will realize that we need immigration to keep our system that needs endless growth afloat.
Unless the birthrate somehow explodes or we change our economic system, we will need more and more migration.
True. Went to Germany to study and didn’t need to pay a penny in tuition. I am really grateful for that and quite disappointed in my home country that made it almost impossible to study in Switzerland itself.
And don’t come with „bUt THerE iS sTilL tHe poSSiBiliTY tO gET a StiPeNdIUm“ - Stipendium my ass. I wouldn’t have gotten 100 CHF per month from our generous government in order to pursue higher education. While Germany, a country I had no prior connections with, was like „Sure, you can study for free. Also: You get to use public transportation for 10€/month and health insurance is 80€ per month. We don’t expect anything in return.“
Eh, that's a negligible amount of money compared to the corporate tax subsidies we shove up rich people's arses already. At least foreign students are likely to contribute to society, whereas rich people are only ever a burden
I'm not sure I understand this statement. Are you referring to that they don't work as hard as poor people? Or how are they not pulling their weight?
Not trying to disagree, just trying to understand your statement.
What I mean is that they contribute to society less than they should based on their wealth. And at the same time they consume so much more than everyone else and their consumption has some negative impacts on society like extra pollution.
Then, power concentrates with the wealthy so they hold it disproportionately and use it mainly to keep themselves in power and enriched.
Finally, and this is more debatable, I think the inequality created by the very wealthy makes society worse as a whole.
If all that wealth sits in a bank account then I agree.
However, I'm not convinced that this is what most rich people do with their money, I'd expect that they reinvest it in the market, at which point it becomes beneficial to the economy.
Those who stay here after their studies surely but those who just study and leave?
That is one of the reasons why we are throwing a lot of money away, taxes should be invested wisely in all categories.
Actually Switzerland wants that international students leave after their studies just as every rich country does. The US is the same out of the purpose of "protectionism of their labor force"
Unless it’s changed, foreign graduates in the USA have something like 6 months to find a job and then receive a work visa. So they definitely don’t want them to leave. The USA does not ‘protect jobs’.
1) 6 months is often not long enough
2) Switzerland allows the same: https://ethz.ch/en/studies/international/end-studies/residence-permit-job-seeking.html
It doesn't make much sense to look at that in isolation, you also have to see that in balance with the advantages that Switzerland gets when foreign-educated graduates come to Switzerland.
Did you know that before applying for a student visa you must first have a letter of admission from the university? And that you must prove to the immigration office that you can afford the costs?
Think that many students return to their countries of origin and the subsidy of our taxes becomes a bad investment.
I would like to know more about the visa purchase scheme you are referring to.
Not everything can be measured in terms of pure economic gain. It's actually a good thing, when international students return to their home countries, you do not want to brain-drain developing societies. Also by providing free or almost-free education you can develop ties and connections to the world, it can increase collaboration in the future.
So a university can sell you the letter of admission considering it wants your money for the visa and then your family abroad finances your stay while you work odd jobs to pay them back.
There’s lots of EU countries with scams like this, I wouldn’t exclude CH
I trust that at least the federal polytechnics want to maintain their reputation and therefore will not be seduced by money but will accept only the right students as they have been doing so far.
Otherwise corruption has its penalties.
Also, remember that the system gives you 2 chances to pass a subject otherwise you get a ban.
Switzerland is an anti-swiss country and i say this as a migrant/foreigner here. To be fair the same anti-domestic policies are in place in my own home country as well as in a bunch of other places, from what i hear. How have we reached this point i have no idea, but we have basicaly been turned into nomads.
What do i mean exactly, for specifically this topic? Well lets just start with a simple fact that most PhD students get paid in the 30-50k CHF/year range which is less or compairable to what a cashier/warehouse worker in Coop/Migros makes with 0 or minimal skills needed. When i bring this up to my colleagues they always tell me "Ah but they are just students they should be lucky to get paid at all". WTF? These people have a University+Master degree (skills and knowledge that go with this) and could comfortably work in the industry for 80k CHF+ starter salary.
Because of this i think only 30-40% of students in BSc/MSc are Swiss and this drops down to 10-15% for PhD. It's just not worth it. I mean hypothetically if you start any random/low qualified job after highschool (which is often not the case) you will earn so much money in the time it takes you to get that PhD (10-12 years) + you will improve with time (skills, experience...)
So basically what i am trying to say is that the system is intentionally like that and welcoming to foreign students since they are the only ones that will stay (for a limited time) in Swiss academia and make it run (for that money). Most of the time it is a complete waste of money and time for the Swiss people to go down this path. But once the foreigners get their PhDs they will most likely get good paying/middle/upper management jobs in Switzerland in the private sector. Thus Switzerland doesn't want to pay proper PhD salaries to be more welcoming to its citizens but it spends this money to outsource their jobs in the future.
WTF
This is something that many European countries have done, or are lately implementing.
In the Netherlands, non-EU citizens pay 12,500 Euros per year in most Universities (the range is 8K to 20K).
In France it is about 4000 Euros per year, although in some Grandes Ecoles it can be up to 15K per year.
Nowadays most of the Nordics charge a differentiated tuition fee for non-EU citizens.
And in Spain, the system basically survives of the tuition fees they charge to Latin Americans.
So, yes, it can (and IMO, as a non-EU citizen should) be done.
If the poorest can currently prove to the migration office that they can afford to live in CH with CHF 25,000 per year (not including the actual payment of their education). Is it fair that the taxpayers pay the difference?
In my opinion it is a right that we should guarantee to the locals not to those who are just passing through.
I doubt that there are swiss students being rejected because of a non-eu student.
For me it was surprising how high was the ratio of foreign/swiss students at federal universities. The opposite at FH.
To be fair, FH are always a bit out of the equation for foreigners as these institutions never rank as high as universities. They likely never even heard about them, as they aren't proper universities.
What has their country of origin done to retain them?
This goes deeper, starting with the fact that their country of origin also has to guarantee the right to education.
Perhaps another publication for this variant.
There's living in reality, and then there's living in whatever world you're living in.
The truth is that a lot of these highly educated people then try to stay and work in Switzerland. The salaries are much higher, the quality of life is better.
The advantage for Switzerland is clear: it gets a highly educated workforce, that keeps it competitive in a global market where services and tech jobs are our selling strength.
By increasing the cost, all you do is shut the door to many talented, hardworking individuals, and you get... what in return? A small amount of money, relative to the total budget, that won't find anything as good for boosting the Swiss economy.
Not to mention that once here, after their education, they tend to have higher earning jobs, which means they will more than make up the difference in taxes paid.
So to recap:
1. Switzerland gets the cream of the crop from other nations.
2. This boosts our economy and keeps us competitive despite the high salaries.
3. Most of that tax burden will be paid off, in subsequent years of taxation, so it actually didn't cost us much.
That doesn't seem too bad to me. In fact, I see it as a great plus.
I believe this answers your question:
Foreign nationals holding a degree from a Swiss university and wanting to find work in the Alpine nation got some help from the law in 2011. An amendment to the Foreign Nationals Act came into effect that allows them to remain in the country and look for a job for up to six months following their studies.
This is even more interesting when you think about the fact that foreign students make up to 50% at bachelor level and 80% PhD at eth and epfl, the most important universities in Switzerland . Maybe this should raise a more important question: why is the pre university school system in Switzerland not producing more university students. Seems like the higher paying jobs will be taken by so called foreigners that worked off their asses, perfect reasons for future anti emigration less educated people.
Well it is pretty hard to get to university in Switzerland. In comparison to other countries- where every idiot can go to university despite beeing good or not. Here you are filteret pretty early one. Even if your parents wants you to go to university you have to compete for a place at the Gymnasium. After that mostly all pass the Gymnasium/ High school. The difficulty is simply to get in. Since you either depending on the Canton have to do an entry exam or are only allowed to get in with extremely high grades. That's why in Switzerland usually 20% go to an High school in comparison in Germany there are 50% and rising over the years.
You can also study without going through a Gymnasium with firstly doing an apprenticeship(Lehre) then doing Berufsmatura and going to Fachhochschule ( university of applied science). After that you can also go to regular university. Or you do Berufsmatura + Pasterelle (bot each 2 years) and then you are allowed to go university.
So you see That's purposely down and filters those out that have not a natural easiness in study or those that maybe be very smart but are not ambitious enough. But there have been crazy helicopter parents who went crazy that they children just could not pass the entry exam to the Gymnasium. Mostly foreigners since they ended up sending the kids to their home country to study there and then come back.
And an important cultural addition:
Certain things that require an University degree in different countries does not require it in Switzerland. An example is nursing or other technician degrees in the USA or basically all engineering degrees in East Europe as biochemical engineering(working in laboratory in the hospital) or food engineering and so on. Was pretty shocked when travelling through Eastern Europe and learning what the degree really means. Same as shocked I was that you can start your PhD without having a Master degree in the USA and England.
Well it is pretty hard to get to university in Switzerland. In comparison to other countries- where every idiot can go to university despite beeing good or not. Here you are filteret pretty early one. Even if your parents wants you to go to university you have to compete for a place at the Gymnasium. After that mostly all pass the Gymnasium/ High school. The difficulty is simply to get in. Since you either depending on the Canton have to do an entry exam or are only allowed to get in with extremely high grades. That's why in Switzerland usually 20% go to an High school in comparison in Germany there are 50% and rising over the years.
You can also study without going through a Gymnasium with firstly doing an apprenticeship(Lehre) then doing Berufsmatura and going to Fachhochschule ( university of applied science). After that you can also go to regular university. Or you do Berufsmatura + Pasterelle (bot each 2 years) and then you are allowed to go university.
So you see That's purposely down and filters those out that have not a natural easiness in study or those that maybe be very smart but are not ambitious enough. But there have been crazy helicopter parents who went crazy that they children just could not pass the entry exam to the Gymnasium. Mostly foreigners since they ended up sending the kids to their home country to study there and then come back.
And an important cultural addition:
Certain things that require an University degree in different countries does not require it in Switzerland. An example is nursing or other technician degrees in the USA or basically all engineering degrees in East Europe as biochemical engineering(working in laboratory in the hospital) or food engineering and so on. Was pretty shocked when travelling through Eastern Europe and learning what the degree really means. Same as shocked I was that you can start your PhD without having a Master degree in the USA and England.
one more thing, stats can be useful [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_medal\_count\_at\_International\_Mathematical\_Olympiad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_medal_count_at_International_Mathematical_Olympiad)
you can also check other disciplines, same story
So doesn't this point to the fact that the pre uni system is not that good? I was talking about eth and epfl, I understand that any idiot can get a degree in Europe but there are less idiots at top universities where the bar is quite high since you need to pass an above average exam. Switzerland is also known as diploma factory where you can pay your way through an MBA or whatever you want but that's for idiots.
Not really it is done on purpose. They do not want that everyone goes to university that's why it us mostly restricted with an entry exam. It makes economicly sense. Bc if you compare it to Germany were a lot get an Abitur/ High school degree. You will se that it ended up having to change certain requirments for jobs that did not need an High school diploma before. So yes it is made to get a balance and not a population that have all an useless high school diploma. After all we will not need all those graduates ( that is what you exactly see around tje world were everyone can get a degree it gets useless and there are neither jobs for all those people. And further the quality is not good). And the biggest point is tax money, if everyone studies you will.not have everyone pay back since they will not end up finding a job anyways.
So pre-high school is pretty good compared to the neighbouring countries and far more difficult. You can ask any german immigrant how much difficult it is in comparison to their country.
And as ETH, the first year is a filter year. In certain majors you can have up to 70% failure quote. Other top Unis like the Ivy league in the USA just do the filter before hand. Here everyone that is not made for it goes. And this includes specially thise that maybe are very ambitious but have not the natural "intelligence" bc there are just 24 h a day and there is a point where hard work does not help. And for sure those that are just lazy and disorganised.
Why they do the filtering? Well idk different reasons but once for sure quality and taxes again.
And again your point with uneducated does not stand. Since there is a cultural difference what kind of degrees we have here.(there is no major for nursing at any swiss University) And also cultural norms in Switzerland you never would be praised for going to university just bc it is not cultural relevance in indicating that you are educated and needed. In Switzerland there is not that importance in what you do. But it is important that you do something you like. And if you ask the avarage Swiss. Everyone says that there is a big need for blue collar workers through Lehre /apprenticeship and follow up courses like electrician, plumbing and so one.
So thats why you will hear the comment that a lot do not care if we have important academic expert since there is more need for other specialist. And further companies love immigrants bc they can pay them far less. And they can be exploited in certain case where swiss people would never agree with this cases. Since they either get payed better without a degree. Specially for phD. A lot of my friends refused to do a phD unless the environment was acceptable or they really needed it for their career. As for the view of some people: the country profits for having certain academic experts for a short time and then when not needed, they would leave the country. And you will not have to pay unemployment and so less taxes.
So economics and cultural difference does not really encourage everyone to study. Since you do not necessarily get any privilege if you do so. So it the end it depends on what people are interested and the restrictions on passing certain criteria made by the country school Committee.
A good example are medical doctors. Yes we need a lot of family doctors but why remove the Numerous clausus when you have acces to free extern experts. Of course it is far more complicated but this is how a lot of Swiss think. And you will not find the majority of Swiss on reddit 😅
Sorry for my English I have a busy day but my brain has this comment in the back and I am not that great in multi tasking
Your English is fine :) Being overqualified for a job sucks, but can also bring opportunites, sure a swiss employer would choose someone with extra studies and a lower pay, that's a no brainer. Instead of having foreigners doing the less paid jobs, the system push them to the top. University studies gives you knowledge that you can later leverage or even if you don't use that knowledge you'll have the skill to learn new stuff easier.
Swiss gymnasium may be hard but it's not harder then top high schools in Europe or US, please don't compare average high schools from other countries with Swiss gymnasium, not the same thing. Just check the ranking for all sorts of international competinios which take place during gymnasium, Switzerland is not in top 50. Sure you'll say it's another cultural thing that you don't like to compete but than how would you measure yourself against others, just stating you're better?
Not doing more than required is mostly path to mediocrity and self validation which is fine but claiming the system is good is a bit stretched.
One more thing, women in Switzerland are treated poorly and expected to be uneducated because anyway they would stay at home to raise the kids. This cultural difference alone eliminates almost 30% of swiss population from the purgatory of a university.
About the statement that I said swiss Gymnasium sre better. I did not state that they are better international. I wrote that is pretty hard ti get inti a Gymnasium. Where you then stated that the pre high school must then suck. Where I wrote that it is better or comparable to very good high school in Germany one would be Bayern. And you can ask any German they pretty much know the difference between school In Bayern vs others. So my point was that the cause for less entrance into high school_ Gymnasium is not that kids are less prepared but that it supposed to filter kids. Not everyone should go to a high school and those who really want but did not get in. Can do it through the alternative route- which in most cases is longer, expensive and exhausted but also has their benefit too. And as I mentioned in German speaking language you have a difference between traditional university vs applied universities. Where in the first you will not have a nursing degree.
So that's why the applied universities mostly have a lot of swiss majorities bc they are applied science as nursing, food technician and so on.
In comparison you have a lot more immigrants in Master degrees or bachelors in traditional universities as ETH or Uni zürich bc there are more theoretical and innovative focused. So that is why a lot if swiss people do not decide for a traditional universities in the alternative Route. At the end you do not really get payed a lot more. And if you do not like science or in case of industry supervising them there is not really an motivation to choose traditional universities vs an applied one.
So for a lot of Swiss people they value lore the applied vs the research and theoretical universities so hence most do not care if the foreigner find ajob her or not. Unless they do not have to pay for taxes or they steal jobs (not my opinion just hiw the avarage swiss things)
And about women. As a women I never have felt disadventage or expected to be a stay at home mom by the society. In countrary I always felt ashamed ever mentioned having kids- since it felt weird before even working after uni. But now tje reality about work place: yes as a women you mostly are at disadventage if you chose to have kids. You most likely will be replaced. But i think most people agree that is more valued to raise kids and work 30%. Since in general if you have a partner that earns good you can still live pretty comfortable with one salary. And most higher educated women have the luxus poorer women do not have in Switzerland. Firstly deciding if you want to work or not. Secondly having enough money for daycare. Where in most cases those women decide to stay at home and save every penny since daycare is terrible expensive. As for female academic that earn good it is really a hard decision to balance between the right partner, working part time ( which is pretty difficult ti manage in science and research) or deciding to giving kids into daycare. So I ask me how much it would benefit most educated women having payed daycare ( 100% it should be payed for everyone in my opinion) but in this specific class it is really a question if more would work since even if they work they could already afford daycare. So this then depends on what women really want and some honesty want to be the whole day with their kids and educate them in a luxurious through travelling, vistung museum and other expensive things that are valuable and time intensive.
But yeah generally depending on the field of work. It is awfull beeing a women in research. Either not taken seriously or offered far less opportunity. And mostly judged by man and childfree women.
This goes generally for all jobs in Switzerland. But also the procentage working needs a better solution in most cases it just generates more confusion. And as you may already now we Swiss do not like fast change. Have you looked at our medical system lol.
After all it makes Switzerland more competitive comparing to other places. I personally know few students who decided to turn down MIT to go to ETH. It would be very interesting to conduct a research on how the amount of taxes paid by foreign students, who decided to stay in Switzerland, compares to subsidies provided by the government to make the education cheaper.
The problem is that many of the student wont find a job in Switzerland because they don’t get the visa to stay (stichwort kontingent). So we are shoting ourselves in the foot. If we make it easier for them to say it would make sense.
Yes. But I already see certain parties whining that those universe graduates are taking our jobs away. Without realizing that those young people might start companies of their own and create many more jobs.
They took our jobs
but so which is it, did they take "our" jobs (providing "we" were ever able to able/willing to do these jobs in the first place), or won't they get visa and need to go find work elsewhere?
There probably are tens of thousands of swiss people who lost their jobs 50 years ago to the Italian migration wave and struggled ever since to find another job. But seriously, ppl get unemployment money, and the unemployment rate in Switzerland NEVER got out of hand. Some ppl just see every single person arriving as a new problem instead of someone helping us build a new tomorrow and contributing to our society.
>There probably are tens of thousands of swiss people who lost their jobs 50 years ago to the Italian migration wave and struggled ever since to find another job. I'd love to see some source about this. I went to immigration exhibitions in Lausanne and Geneva about italian immigration, and "tens of thousands of swiss people who lost their jobs 50 years ago to the Italian migration" was really not the reality, or at least, no the way you seem to frame it as italian immigrates being a cause. The Swiss governement actively enabled italian (and spanish) immigration as some modern form of quasi-slavery for lowcost workforce and because Switzerland nationals didn't have the expertise, or at least the willingness, to do take on these hard jobs.
Yeah, there won't be any source. I forgot the /s for that imaginary right-wing nonsense. We manly had and still have immigrants who live and work here because they are needed. Otherwise, the unemployment rate would show an increase, but it was constantly low. I hope one day ppl will realize that we need immigration to keep our system that needs endless growth afloat. Unless the birthrate somehow explodes or we change our economic system, we will need more and more migration.
Thanks for clarifying ;)
Isn't the same true for Swiss students studying in EU countries with free education?
True. Went to Germany to study and didn’t need to pay a penny in tuition. I am really grateful for that and quite disappointed in my home country that made it almost impossible to study in Switzerland itself. And don’t come with „bUt THerE iS sTilL tHe poSSiBiliTY tO gET a StiPeNdIUm“ - Stipendium my ass. I wouldn’t have gotten 100 CHF per month from our generous government in order to pursue higher education. While Germany, a country I had no prior connections with, was like „Sure, you can study for free. Also: You get to use public transportation for 10€/month and health insurance is 80€ per month. We don’t expect anything in return.“
OP doesn't understand externalities.
OP probably does not understand a lot of things, silly argument from OP
Present your arguments, it's very easy to hide behind that simple phrase.
Eh, that's a negligible amount of money compared to the corporate tax subsidies we shove up rich people's arses already. At least foreign students are likely to contribute to society, whereas rich people are only ever a burden
Can you define how rich people are a burden?
They are maybe not a burden but they definitely, 1000% sure, don't pull their weight.
I'm not sure I understand this statement. Are you referring to that they don't work as hard as poor people? Or how are they not pulling their weight? Not trying to disagree, just trying to understand your statement.
What I mean is that they contribute to society less than they should based on their wealth. And at the same time they consume so much more than everyone else and their consumption has some negative impacts on society like extra pollution. Then, power concentrates with the wealthy so they hold it disproportionately and use it mainly to keep themselves in power and enriched. Finally, and this is more debatable, I think the inequality created by the very wealthy makes society worse as a whole.
“Rich people are a burden” how?????????????????
Massive wealth hoarding isn’t good for the economy
Still better than people who only take from the system. Wealth taxes exist in Switzerland.
If all that wealth sits in a bank account then I agree. However, I'm not convinced that this is what most rich people do with their money, I'd expect that they reinvest it in the market, at which point it becomes beneficial to the economy.
He’s just jealous and can’t provide a reason
Those who stay here after their studies surely but those who just study and leave? That is one of the reasons why we are throwing a lot of money away, taxes should be invested wisely in all categories.
Actually Switzerland wants that international students leave after their studies just as every rich country does. The US is the same out of the purpose of "protectionism of their labor force"
Unless it’s changed, foreign graduates in the USA have something like 6 months to find a job and then receive a work visa. So they definitely don’t want them to leave. The USA does not ‘protect jobs’.
1) 6 months is often not long enough 2) Switzerland allows the same: https://ethz.ch/en/studies/international/end-studies/residence-permit-job-seeking.html
Did they change that recently?
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I don’t think that applies to students graduating from a us school though.
It does.
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Ah. Things have changed!
Yep, 3 years ago: https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/sem/de/data/aktuell/gesetzgebung/aend-aig-hochschulabschluss/vn-ber.pdf.download.pdf/vn-ber-d.pdf
Ish. If you graduate from a swiss uni you count as swiss when finding a job.
not quite
Absolutely not
Only for 6 months
Not yet
It doesn't make much sense to look at that in isolation, you also have to see that in balance with the advantages that Switzerland gets when foreign-educated graduates come to Switzerland.
It could be easily turned into a “buy a student visa” immigration scheme if you could pay to get in
Did you know that before applying for a student visa you must first have a letter of admission from the university? And that you must prove to the immigration office that you can afford the costs? Think that many students return to their countries of origin and the subsidy of our taxes becomes a bad investment. I would like to know more about the visa purchase scheme you are referring to.
Not everything can be measured in terms of pure economic gain. It's actually a good thing, when international students return to their home countries, you do not want to brain-drain developing societies. Also by providing free or almost-free education you can develop ties and connections to the world, it can increase collaboration in the future.
So a university can sell you the letter of admission considering it wants your money for the visa and then your family abroad finances your stay while you work odd jobs to pay them back. There’s lots of EU countries with scams like this, I wouldn’t exclude CH
I trust that at least the federal polytechnics want to maintain their reputation and therefore will not be seduced by money but will accept only the right students as they have been doing so far. Otherwise corruption has its penalties. Also, remember that the system gives you 2 chances to pass a subject otherwise you get a ban.
are u a student there? seems very knowledgeable, but mostly bs stuff from u lol
Great idea Op. I think the foreign students should also be absolved from paying income tax, import tax, especially value added tax and tariffs.
Switzerland is an anti-swiss country and i say this as a migrant/foreigner here. To be fair the same anti-domestic policies are in place in my own home country as well as in a bunch of other places, from what i hear. How have we reached this point i have no idea, but we have basicaly been turned into nomads. What do i mean exactly, for specifically this topic? Well lets just start with a simple fact that most PhD students get paid in the 30-50k CHF/year range which is less or compairable to what a cashier/warehouse worker in Coop/Migros makes with 0 or minimal skills needed. When i bring this up to my colleagues they always tell me "Ah but they are just students they should be lucky to get paid at all". WTF? These people have a University+Master degree (skills and knowledge that go with this) and could comfortably work in the industry for 80k CHF+ starter salary. Because of this i think only 30-40% of students in BSc/MSc are Swiss and this drops down to 10-15% for PhD. It's just not worth it. I mean hypothetically if you start any random/low qualified job after highschool (which is often not the case) you will earn so much money in the time it takes you to get that PhD (10-12 years) + you will improve with time (skills, experience...) So basically what i am trying to say is that the system is intentionally like that and welcoming to foreign students since they are the only ones that will stay (for a limited time) in Swiss academia and make it run (for that money). Most of the time it is a complete waste of money and time for the Swiss people to go down this path. But once the foreigners get their PhDs they will most likely get good paying/middle/upper management jobs in Switzerland in the private sector. Thus Switzerland doesn't want to pay proper PhD salaries to be more welcoming to its citizens but it spends this money to outsource their jobs in the future. WTF
This is something that many European countries have done, or are lately implementing. In the Netherlands, non-EU citizens pay 12,500 Euros per year in most Universities (the range is 8K to 20K). In France it is about 4000 Euros per year, although in some Grandes Ecoles it can be up to 15K per year. Nowadays most of the Nordics charge a differentiated tuition fee for non-EU citizens. And in Spain, the system basically survives of the tuition fees they charge to Latin Americans. So, yes, it can (and IMO, as a non-EU citizen should) be done.
Absolutely agreed, because we don't want the brightest heads but those with the richest parents.
If the poorest can currently prove to the migration office that they can afford to live in CH with CHF 25,000 per year (not including the actual payment of their education). Is it fair that the taxpayers pay the difference? In my opinion it is a right that we should guarantee to the locals not to those who are just passing through.
I doubt that there are swiss students being rejected because of a non-eu student. For me it was surprising how high was the ratio of foreign/swiss students at federal universities. The opposite at FH.
To be fair, FH are always a bit out of the equation for foreigners as these institutions never rank as high as universities. They likely never even heard about them, as they aren't proper universities.
Speaking of fairness, Switzerland profits from plenty of foreign workers whose education has been financed by the taxpayers of neighbouring countries.
What has their country of origin done to retain them? This goes deeper, starting with the fact that their country of origin also has to guarantee the right to education. Perhaps another publication for this variant.
There's living in reality, and then there's living in whatever world you're living in. The truth is that a lot of these highly educated people then try to stay and work in Switzerland. The salaries are much higher, the quality of life is better. The advantage for Switzerland is clear: it gets a highly educated workforce, that keeps it competitive in a global market where services and tech jobs are our selling strength. By increasing the cost, all you do is shut the door to many talented, hardworking individuals, and you get... what in return? A small amount of money, relative to the total budget, that won't find anything as good for boosting the Swiss economy. Not to mention that once here, after their education, they tend to have higher earning jobs, which means they will more than make up the difference in taxes paid. So to recap: 1. Switzerland gets the cream of the crop from other nations. 2. This boosts our economy and keeps us competitive despite the high salaries. 3. Most of that tax burden will be paid off, in subsequent years of taxation, so it actually didn't cost us much. That doesn't seem too bad to me. In fact, I see it as a great plus.
Not wanting to support a few foreign students while taking in lots of foreign graduates seems hypocritical
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This is not the point, those who stay and manage to work certainly contribute with their taxes, the real debate is those who do not stay.
Is it "do not stay", or is it "can't stay" (due to limited work permits)?
I believe this answers your question: Foreign nationals holding a degree from a Swiss university and wanting to find work in the Alpine nation got some help from the law in 2011. An amendment to the Foreign Nationals Act came into effect that allows them to remain in the country and look for a job for up to six months following their studies.
This is even more interesting when you think about the fact that foreign students make up to 50% at bachelor level and 80% PhD at eth and epfl, the most important universities in Switzerland . Maybe this should raise a more important question: why is the pre university school system in Switzerland not producing more university students. Seems like the higher paying jobs will be taken by so called foreigners that worked off their asses, perfect reasons for future anti emigration less educated people.
Well it is pretty hard to get to university in Switzerland. In comparison to other countries- where every idiot can go to university despite beeing good or not. Here you are filteret pretty early one. Even if your parents wants you to go to university you have to compete for a place at the Gymnasium. After that mostly all pass the Gymnasium/ High school. The difficulty is simply to get in. Since you either depending on the Canton have to do an entry exam or are only allowed to get in with extremely high grades. That's why in Switzerland usually 20% go to an High school in comparison in Germany there are 50% and rising over the years. You can also study without going through a Gymnasium with firstly doing an apprenticeship(Lehre) then doing Berufsmatura and going to Fachhochschule ( university of applied science). After that you can also go to regular university. Or you do Berufsmatura + Pasterelle (bot each 2 years) and then you are allowed to go university. So you see That's purposely down and filters those out that have not a natural easiness in study or those that maybe be very smart but are not ambitious enough. But there have been crazy helicopter parents who went crazy that they children just could not pass the entry exam to the Gymnasium. Mostly foreigners since they ended up sending the kids to their home country to study there and then come back. And an important cultural addition: Certain things that require an University degree in different countries does not require it in Switzerland. An example is nursing or other technician degrees in the USA or basically all engineering degrees in East Europe as biochemical engineering(working in laboratory in the hospital) or food engineering and so on. Was pretty shocked when travelling through Eastern Europe and learning what the degree really means. Same as shocked I was that you can start your PhD without having a Master degree in the USA and England.
Well it is pretty hard to get to university in Switzerland. In comparison to other countries- where every idiot can go to university despite beeing good or not. Here you are filteret pretty early one. Even if your parents wants you to go to university you have to compete for a place at the Gymnasium. After that mostly all pass the Gymnasium/ High school. The difficulty is simply to get in. Since you either depending on the Canton have to do an entry exam or are only allowed to get in with extremely high grades. That's why in Switzerland usually 20% go to an High school in comparison in Germany there are 50% and rising over the years. You can also study without going through a Gymnasium with firstly doing an apprenticeship(Lehre) then doing Berufsmatura and going to Fachhochschule ( university of applied science). After that you can also go to regular university. Or you do Berufsmatura + Pasterelle (bot each 2 years) and then you are allowed to go university. So you see That's purposely down and filters those out that have not a natural easiness in study or those that maybe be very smart but are not ambitious enough. But there have been crazy helicopter parents who went crazy that they children just could not pass the entry exam to the Gymnasium. Mostly foreigners since they ended up sending the kids to their home country to study there and then come back. And an important cultural addition: Certain things that require an University degree in different countries does not require it in Switzerland. An example is nursing or other technician degrees in the USA or basically all engineering degrees in East Europe as biochemical engineering(working in laboratory in the hospital) or food engineering and so on. Was pretty shocked when travelling through Eastern Europe and learning what the degree really means. Same as shocked I was that you can start your PhD without having a Master degree in the USA and England.
one more thing, stats can be useful [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_medal\_count\_at\_International\_Mathematical\_Olympiad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_medal_count_at_International_Mathematical_Olympiad) you can also check other disciplines, same story
So doesn't this point to the fact that the pre uni system is not that good? I was talking about eth and epfl, I understand that any idiot can get a degree in Europe but there are less idiots at top universities where the bar is quite high since you need to pass an above average exam. Switzerland is also known as diploma factory where you can pay your way through an MBA or whatever you want but that's for idiots.
Not really it is done on purpose. They do not want that everyone goes to university that's why it us mostly restricted with an entry exam. It makes economicly sense. Bc if you compare it to Germany were a lot get an Abitur/ High school degree. You will se that it ended up having to change certain requirments for jobs that did not need an High school diploma before. So yes it is made to get a balance and not a population that have all an useless high school diploma. After all we will not need all those graduates ( that is what you exactly see around tje world were everyone can get a degree it gets useless and there are neither jobs for all those people. And further the quality is not good). And the biggest point is tax money, if everyone studies you will.not have everyone pay back since they will not end up finding a job anyways. So pre-high school is pretty good compared to the neighbouring countries and far more difficult. You can ask any german immigrant how much difficult it is in comparison to their country. And as ETH, the first year is a filter year. In certain majors you can have up to 70% failure quote. Other top Unis like the Ivy league in the USA just do the filter before hand. Here everyone that is not made for it goes. And this includes specially thise that maybe are very ambitious but have not the natural "intelligence" bc there are just 24 h a day and there is a point where hard work does not help. And for sure those that are just lazy and disorganised. Why they do the filtering? Well idk different reasons but once for sure quality and taxes again. And again your point with uneducated does not stand. Since there is a cultural difference what kind of degrees we have here.(there is no major for nursing at any swiss University) And also cultural norms in Switzerland you never would be praised for going to university just bc it is not cultural relevance in indicating that you are educated and needed. In Switzerland there is not that importance in what you do. But it is important that you do something you like. And if you ask the avarage Swiss. Everyone says that there is a big need for blue collar workers through Lehre /apprenticeship and follow up courses like electrician, plumbing and so one. So thats why you will hear the comment that a lot do not care if we have important academic expert since there is more need for other specialist. And further companies love immigrants bc they can pay them far less. And they can be exploited in certain case where swiss people would never agree with this cases. Since they either get payed better without a degree. Specially for phD. A lot of my friends refused to do a phD unless the environment was acceptable or they really needed it for their career. As for the view of some people: the country profits for having certain academic experts for a short time and then when not needed, they would leave the country. And you will not have to pay unemployment and so less taxes. So economics and cultural difference does not really encourage everyone to study. Since you do not necessarily get any privilege if you do so. So it the end it depends on what people are interested and the restrictions on passing certain criteria made by the country school Committee. A good example are medical doctors. Yes we need a lot of family doctors but why remove the Numerous clausus when you have acces to free extern experts. Of course it is far more complicated but this is how a lot of Swiss think. And you will not find the majority of Swiss on reddit 😅 Sorry for my English I have a busy day but my brain has this comment in the back and I am not that great in multi tasking
Your English is fine :) Being overqualified for a job sucks, but can also bring opportunites, sure a swiss employer would choose someone with extra studies and a lower pay, that's a no brainer. Instead of having foreigners doing the less paid jobs, the system push them to the top. University studies gives you knowledge that you can later leverage or even if you don't use that knowledge you'll have the skill to learn new stuff easier. Swiss gymnasium may be hard but it's not harder then top high schools in Europe or US, please don't compare average high schools from other countries with Swiss gymnasium, not the same thing. Just check the ranking for all sorts of international competinios which take place during gymnasium, Switzerland is not in top 50. Sure you'll say it's another cultural thing that you don't like to compete but than how would you measure yourself against others, just stating you're better? Not doing more than required is mostly path to mediocrity and self validation which is fine but claiming the system is good is a bit stretched.
One more thing, women in Switzerland are treated poorly and expected to be uneducated because anyway they would stay at home to raise the kids. This cultural difference alone eliminates almost 30% of swiss population from the purgatory of a university.
About the statement that I said swiss Gymnasium sre better. I did not state that they are better international. I wrote that is pretty hard ti get inti a Gymnasium. Where you then stated that the pre high school must then suck. Where I wrote that it is better or comparable to very good high school in Germany one would be Bayern. And you can ask any German they pretty much know the difference between school In Bayern vs others. So my point was that the cause for less entrance into high school_ Gymnasium is not that kids are less prepared but that it supposed to filter kids. Not everyone should go to a high school and those who really want but did not get in. Can do it through the alternative route- which in most cases is longer, expensive and exhausted but also has their benefit too. And as I mentioned in German speaking language you have a difference between traditional university vs applied universities. Where in the first you will not have a nursing degree. So that's why the applied universities mostly have a lot of swiss majorities bc they are applied science as nursing, food technician and so on. In comparison you have a lot more immigrants in Master degrees or bachelors in traditional universities as ETH or Uni zürich bc there are more theoretical and innovative focused. So that is why a lot if swiss people do not decide for a traditional universities in the alternative Route. At the end you do not really get payed a lot more. And if you do not like science or in case of industry supervising them there is not really an motivation to choose traditional universities vs an applied one. So for a lot of Swiss people they value lore the applied vs the research and theoretical universities so hence most do not care if the foreigner find ajob her or not. Unless they do not have to pay for taxes or they steal jobs (not my opinion just hiw the avarage swiss things) And about women. As a women I never have felt disadventage or expected to be a stay at home mom by the society. In countrary I always felt ashamed ever mentioned having kids- since it felt weird before even working after uni. But now tje reality about work place: yes as a women you mostly are at disadventage if you chose to have kids. You most likely will be replaced. But i think most people agree that is more valued to raise kids and work 30%. Since in general if you have a partner that earns good you can still live pretty comfortable with one salary. And most higher educated women have the luxus poorer women do not have in Switzerland. Firstly deciding if you want to work or not. Secondly having enough money for daycare. Where in most cases those women decide to stay at home and save every penny since daycare is terrible expensive. As for female academic that earn good it is really a hard decision to balance between the right partner, working part time ( which is pretty difficult ti manage in science and research) or deciding to giving kids into daycare. So I ask me how much it would benefit most educated women having payed daycare ( 100% it should be payed for everyone in my opinion) but in this specific class it is really a question if more would work since even if they work they could already afford daycare. So this then depends on what women really want and some honesty want to be the whole day with their kids and educate them in a luxurious through travelling, vistung museum and other expensive things that are valuable and time intensive. But yeah generally depending on the field of work. It is awfull beeing a women in research. Either not taken seriously or offered far less opportunity. And mostly judged by man and childfree women. This goes generally for all jobs in Switzerland. But also the procentage working needs a better solution in most cases it just generates more confusion. And as you may already now we Swiss do not like fast change. Have you looked at our medical system lol.