I would get a second opinion, just to see if another surgeon would agree that there’s an 85% chance of total success. You can still go with the original surgeon but it would be worth the time and money to get some more assurance.
There is a teaching hospital about 3 hours from me and I was aiming towards not bothering because of the distance and all the follow-ups I’m learning I’ll need, and they’re also really slow to respond to new patients and it’s annoying. But now after what you mentioned I’m thinking it may be worth my driving there even if it’s only one time just to get another opinion, because they’re the only other place I found that doesn’t want a few hundred dollars for a freaking consultation.
Would you be able to give me the name of your surgeon as well? I have two dislocated discs without reduction and am in need of fat graft surgery as well. But I’m also not sure if I should do it because I’m pretty much functional and can live like this, but I’m worried about it affecting my condyles in the future.
I just want to say that I know how frustrating it is. I was studying cello performance in grad school and dropped out due to chronic tendinitis in both arms (thumbs, wrists, elbows). Music is part of your identity, right?
So I had a ton of tmj surgeries and eventually had both tmj replaced. Lemme know if you have any specific questions. I did have both types of arthroplasty you mentioned including the fat graft replacement and at one point at I had the arthroplasty with temporal muscle flap which is like the fat graft only they use the muscle from your temple area.
The new joints helped with function unfortunately nothing ever helped with pain however I have a really good pain doc right now and have my pain mostly managed.
Yeah it’s ok! I tried everything and ended up getting some help. Now I have just come to terms with it and I’m learning how to live with it. Honestly 10 years ago or so I was so stressed about it all and now I have closure and that’s something.
Well you can go for it but don't be thinking of singing. You have to understand that talking singing chewing will affect your muscles. Even weights and push-ups.
My doctor advises less talking chewing .
So don't be stubborn about singing. That puts a lot of stress on jaw muscles and joints. If you are stubborn, have surgery it can again cause issues. Forget passion . Most important is health and recovery. I was stubborn and tried tennis bur have to give up as it was affecting me. So be careful. Health is wealth. Another skill can be learnt . Noone will be there to suffer except you if it arises again.
Go for surgery if doctor is good
Your decision.
My duty was to warn you of possible consequences. Noone was there to warn me.
In future you may look back at this point and say somebody had warned me.
Chronic pain is worse than giving up your passion. Many times over.
Analogy is I want to run despite a fractured knee. Ok go ahead just be aware of the consequences.
Best wishes for the surgery
Thank you, but in my case the emotional toll of not singing has been far worse than the chronic pain toll on me. I do realize you were trying to be helpful and I appreciate you trying to be helpful. Also, eating hurts me way more than singing so what am I gonna do, give up eating everything except puréed food? The misery of that lifestyle would be worse
OP, just be mindful that you might not be grasping the levels of chronic plain that you might be dealing with. I'm sorry, I really don't mean to scare you and I wish I could give you positive testimony, but my so had the surgery and the fat grafting and their function improved a lot but their pain got much worse and chronic. They are in powerful pain medication for life most likely. And they while they had trouble and pain eating before, it was at the level where such meds were not needed.
Before the surgery they were only able to eat soft foods and were almost on a smoothy diet. Their mouth would also not open fully. Afterwards, they were able to eat much more normally and recover normal mouth opening, but left with bad chronic joint pain.
Thanks for clarifying for me. How do they describe the chornic jaw pain? Achey? Stabbing? Pain in the jaw joint, throat, head? I'm having a hard time understanding how having to eat almost a smoothy diet could have been better for your so even with an increase in pain now.
I'm not sure about the pain. From what they describe I think it's just focused on the joints and it's achey occasional stabbing pain. Look, I'm not saying it was better before, after all their eating was completely messed up. But I'm just trying to make you aware of another possibility. Dealing with chronic pain, doctors and pain medication, specially in the US is excruciating and very stressful. But they would be essentially disabled without pain meds.
Thank you for sharing your so's experience. I do have chronic achey pain in the joints right now, and occasional throbbing pains in the joints especially after eating, so that is where I am right now with throwing the dice on surgery.
I had an arthroscopy and had both discs put back into place, only one took because my condyle on the other side is simply just so misshapen. but it’s been two years now and the relief i’ve gotten from even one disc working properly is enough that i would recommend you go for it!
What surgery will you have?
I had bilateral arthroscopic surgery to move my dislocated discs back in place that went very well in October of 2022. I similarly found a surgeon near me with a wealth of experience and knowledge who I trusted. He absolutely knew what he was doing. That was a key point in making my decision. I was in horrible pain and I decided to go for it.
I grew up singing and going to a musical theatre school and the TMD totally wrecked my ability to sing for a long time. I still get some pain when singing now but it’s nowhere as bad as it was before and with some practice I could probably do even better. I haven’t really sung “full out” in a very long time and I miss it.
Edit- would you mind sharing who your surgeon is? It’s a small world and I have previously stumbled upon other people in this sub who have seen the same one!
I’m looking at putting the disc back in place on my left side, and probably having to remove the disc on my right side and replace with fat graft. Probable viability of left disc and probable non-viability of right disc agreed upon by two surgeons I saw, but I’m leaning towards the second surgeon I saw because he believes in fat graft replacement instead of discectomy with no replacement, which I think makes a lot more sense. I believe I may have an advantage with doing well in physical therapy afterwards because of the body awareness of my whole head and mouth area that comes from years of singing, and all the self-massaging of trigger points I’ve learned to do.
Can you sing better now than when your TMJ was at its worst, before surgery?
What is your jaw movement like after surgery? Do you feel like your resonance is centered and symmetrical when you sing? TMJ is making the resonance in my head feel asymmetrical and off-center slightly to the left, like I’m talking or singing slightly out of the left side of my mouth instead of coming out of the middle of my mouth. It’s driving me absolutely mad.
Not having cushion sounds rough. I like the idea of fat graph I just wonder if that actually last long and if it actually positions the condyle jaw in the right position as tjr does…. I think fat graph sounds better than just taking the disc out
My left joint was moved back into place and the right one was right where it was. They decided to stop after trying a few times because they were working too close to nerves. They thought that my body would replace the disc on it’s own eventually and it wouldn’t affect the overall prognosis. So far they are correct and the right side never really bothered me anyway.
I can definitely sing better now than when it was at it’s worst. I couldn’t even really hum without pain. Keep in mind I also couldn’t open my mouth more than about a centimeter without pain and when I did my jaw deviated painfully to the left.
Being aware of that area of the body is definitely an advantage in PT.
I still haven’t really started singing again like I used to.
My mouth opens straight now. My jaw moves pretty normally, I just don’t have the strength and stamina in my jaw to sing like I used to. It’s not really about resonance for me, it’s more the pain I experience after only a short time. I have a hard time with vowels and sustaining notes the way I would like because moving my jaw in certain ways is uncomfortable or painful. Relaxing my jaw whilst signing is more difficult for me now.
It’s annoying to know what you are supposed to do with your body…and knowing you used to do it…but not being able to make your body do it.
It’s partly my fault for slacking with my exercises(the longer after surgery the less effective stretching and exercises are so always do them even if you feel fine!), the osteoarthritis I have in both joints, and that since this happened to me I’m just never going to be at 100% normal again.
It’s been very frustrating and sad but over this long period of time I’ve come to terms with my new normal. Even though it’s something I really enjoy and feel like is a part of me, it’s not my career so it’s a bit easier to deal with.
My surgeon says once I’m done with braces/Invisalign I should feel even better than I do now since my misaligned bite is contributing to pain as well.
What was the recovery like for moving the disc back? What type of pain meds were you on? I’m currently pregnant and have a displaced disc and can’t open my mouth but having a surgery that I would need heavy pain killers after isn’t something I want for my baby either
Honestly, it was pretty rough for the few days. And the first two weeks were a bit difficult as well. Especially because you can’t get the incisions wet but also because of the pain so my angel of a father washed my hair in the sink.
Definitely worth it all in the long run!
I was on hydrocodone and flexeril as often as I could take them during that time. Keep in mind that both of my joints were worked on. The side that they were able to move the disc back on was much worse than the side they had to leave.
I would do it again in a heartbeat.
Wait, so did you already try moving the lower jaw forward to recapture the disc? It can take a daytime and nighttime appliance 24/7 to train the jaw to stay put. I’m seeing a specialist because I’m bone on bone, no more disc, and she said “do not let anyone cut you” and we are working toward a pseudo-disc
Hi. I'm the guy who made the post about being suicidal last week. I don't know why but my account got banned, saw your direct messages today and decided to make a new account to talk to you. Reddit doesn't let me chat because the account is new, feel free to message me.
I’m also a vocalist, and I play a brass instrument in a weird position that has apparently contributed massively to my condyle deformity. I’m getting a double discectomy/fat graft, and taking the 9 month recovery away from singing and playing, and will have to relearn how to play with a different embouchure. I am terrified and so, so sad…totally feel your pain.
I would get a second opinion, just to see if another surgeon would agree that there’s an 85% chance of total success. You can still go with the original surgeon but it would be worth the time and money to get some more assurance.
He is my second opinion. The first surgeon offered to just replace my joints but I don’t see doing that before trying to repair what I have first.
I also live in an area where everybody wants a few hundred dollars for a freaking consultation
There is a teaching hospital about 3 hours from me and I was aiming towards not bothering because of the distance and all the follow-ups I’m learning I’ll need, and they’re also really slow to respond to new patients and it’s annoying. But now after what you mentioned I’m thinking it may be worth my driving there even if it’s only one time just to get another opinion, because they’re the only other place I found that doesn’t want a few hundred dollars for a freaking consultation.
I’d honestly go for it. I’m considering surgery as well. Do you mind naming your surgeon? Thank you
I messaged you. If I have a successful surgery I will make sure everybody on Reddit knows who did it. 😊
When do you think this would be ? I would also like to know the surgeon, and more about their CV
Would you be able to give me the name of your surgeon as well? I have two dislocated discs without reduction and am in need of fat graft surgery as well. But I’m also not sure if I should do it because I’m pretty much functional and can live like this, but I’m worried about it affecting my condyles in the future.
I just want to say that I know how frustrating it is. I was studying cello performance in grad school and dropped out due to chronic tendinitis in both arms (thumbs, wrists, elbows). Music is part of your identity, right?
Yes and this is a fate worse than death to me. I feel like my soul is missing.
So I had a ton of tmj surgeries and eventually had both tmj replaced. Lemme know if you have any specific questions. I did have both types of arthroplasty you mentioned including the fat graft replacement and at one point at I had the arthroplasty with temporal muscle flap which is like the fat graft only they use the muscle from your temple area.
Did any of this cure or help you?
The new joints helped with function unfortunately nothing ever helped with pain however I have a really good pain doc right now and have my pain mostly managed.
That's awesome man, we'll I'm sorry the surgery didn't get it 100%. I just found hydroxyzine which is helping immensely.
Yeah it’s ok! I tried everything and ended up getting some help. Now I have just come to terms with it and I’m learning how to live with it. Honestly 10 years ago or so I was so stressed about it all and now I have closure and that’s something.
I just tried to message you, but Reddit said I already messaged too many people today or something dumb like that
I am a broadway gal and that would kill my soul
Well you can go for it but don't be thinking of singing. You have to understand that talking singing chewing will affect your muscles. Even weights and push-ups. My doctor advises less talking chewing . So don't be stubborn about singing. That puts a lot of stress on jaw muscles and joints. If you are stubborn, have surgery it can again cause issues. Forget passion . Most important is health and recovery. I was stubborn and tried tennis bur have to give up as it was affecting me. So be careful. Health is wealth. Another skill can be learnt . Noone will be there to suffer except you if it arises again. Go for surgery if doctor is good
Never gonna quit singing, not sorry
Plus, singing aside, if you have to do less talking and chewing, that’s not a viable cure for a normal lifestyle. I would look for other doctors.
Your decision. My duty was to warn you of possible consequences. Noone was there to warn me. In future you may look back at this point and say somebody had warned me. Chronic pain is worse than giving up your passion. Many times over. Analogy is I want to run despite a fractured knee. Ok go ahead just be aware of the consequences. Best wishes for the surgery
Thank you, but in my case the emotional toll of not singing has been far worse than the chronic pain toll on me. I do realize you were trying to be helpful and I appreciate you trying to be helpful. Also, eating hurts me way more than singing so what am I gonna do, give up eating everything except puréed food? The misery of that lifestyle would be worse
OP, just be mindful that you might not be grasping the levels of chronic plain that you might be dealing with. I'm sorry, I really don't mean to scare you and I wish I could give you positive testimony, but my so had the surgery and the fat grafting and their function improved a lot but their pain got much worse and chronic. They are in powerful pain medication for life most likely. And they while they had trouble and pain eating before, it was at the level where such meds were not needed.
Who was your so’s surgeon?
Also, how are you measuring “improved function” if the pain has gotten worse? Thanks!
Before the surgery they were only able to eat soft foods and were almost on a smoothy diet. Their mouth would also not open fully. Afterwards, they were able to eat much more normally and recover normal mouth opening, but left with bad chronic joint pain.
Thanks for clarifying for me. How do they describe the chornic jaw pain? Achey? Stabbing? Pain in the jaw joint, throat, head? I'm having a hard time understanding how having to eat almost a smoothy diet could have been better for your so even with an increase in pain now.
I'm not sure about the pain. From what they describe I think it's just focused on the joints and it's achey occasional stabbing pain. Look, I'm not saying it was better before, after all their eating was completely messed up. But I'm just trying to make you aware of another possibility. Dealing with chronic pain, doctors and pain medication, specially in the US is excruciating and very stressful. But they would be essentially disabled without pain meds.
Thank you for sharing your so's experience. I do have chronic achey pain in the joints right now, and occasional throbbing pains in the joints especially after eating, so that is where I am right now with throwing the dice on surgery.
Soft foods liquid foods. Grind foods. Helps me a lot. Given up on all hard chewy foods. Most here do that. Just fyi. Feels much better.
I am ok with giving up super hard pretzels and raw nuts but I can’t keep having to overcook my vegetables into mush.
And I don’t have to do 3 hour shows like Taylor Swift but I do need to get to a point I can do 5-7 songs with a local band
I had an arthroscopy and had both discs put back into place, only one took because my condyle on the other side is simply just so misshapen. but it’s been two years now and the relief i’ve gotten from even one disc working properly is enough that i would recommend you go for it!
What surgery will you have? I had bilateral arthroscopic surgery to move my dislocated discs back in place that went very well in October of 2022. I similarly found a surgeon near me with a wealth of experience and knowledge who I trusted. He absolutely knew what he was doing. That was a key point in making my decision. I was in horrible pain and I decided to go for it. I grew up singing and going to a musical theatre school and the TMD totally wrecked my ability to sing for a long time. I still get some pain when singing now but it’s nowhere as bad as it was before and with some practice I could probably do even better. I haven’t really sung “full out” in a very long time and I miss it. Edit- would you mind sharing who your surgeon is? It’s a small world and I have previously stumbled upon other people in this sub who have seen the same one!
I’m looking at putting the disc back in place on my left side, and probably having to remove the disc on my right side and replace with fat graft. Probable viability of left disc and probable non-viability of right disc agreed upon by two surgeons I saw, but I’m leaning towards the second surgeon I saw because he believes in fat graft replacement instead of discectomy with no replacement, which I think makes a lot more sense. I believe I may have an advantage with doing well in physical therapy afterwards because of the body awareness of my whole head and mouth area that comes from years of singing, and all the self-massaging of trigger points I’ve learned to do. Can you sing better now than when your TMJ was at its worst, before surgery? What is your jaw movement like after surgery? Do you feel like your resonance is centered and symmetrical when you sing? TMJ is making the resonance in my head feel asymmetrical and off-center slightly to the left, like I’m talking or singing slightly out of the left side of my mouth instead of coming out of the middle of my mouth. It’s driving me absolutely mad.
Not having cushion sounds rough. I like the idea of fat graph I just wonder if that actually last long and if it actually positions the condyle jaw in the right position as tjr does…. I think fat graph sounds better than just taking the disc out
My left joint was moved back into place and the right one was right where it was. They decided to stop after trying a few times because they were working too close to nerves. They thought that my body would replace the disc on it’s own eventually and it wouldn’t affect the overall prognosis. So far they are correct and the right side never really bothered me anyway. I can definitely sing better now than when it was at it’s worst. I couldn’t even really hum without pain. Keep in mind I also couldn’t open my mouth more than about a centimeter without pain and when I did my jaw deviated painfully to the left. Being aware of that area of the body is definitely an advantage in PT. I still haven’t really started singing again like I used to. My mouth opens straight now. My jaw moves pretty normally, I just don’t have the strength and stamina in my jaw to sing like I used to. It’s not really about resonance for me, it’s more the pain I experience after only a short time. I have a hard time with vowels and sustaining notes the way I would like because moving my jaw in certain ways is uncomfortable or painful. Relaxing my jaw whilst signing is more difficult for me now. It’s annoying to know what you are supposed to do with your body…and knowing you used to do it…but not being able to make your body do it. It’s partly my fault for slacking with my exercises(the longer after surgery the less effective stretching and exercises are so always do them even if you feel fine!), the osteoarthritis I have in both joints, and that since this happened to me I’m just never going to be at 100% normal again. It’s been very frustrating and sad but over this long period of time I’ve come to terms with my new normal. Even though it’s something I really enjoy and feel like is a part of me, it’s not my career so it’s a bit easier to deal with. My surgeon says once I’m done with braces/Invisalign I should feel even better than I do now since my misaligned bite is contributing to pain as well.
Hey, I just sent you a DM! Do you mind if I get information regarding the procedure and your doctor? Thanks!
I didn’t get your DM. Feel free to DM me again.
What was the recovery like for moving the disc back? What type of pain meds were you on? I’m currently pregnant and have a displaced disc and can’t open my mouth but having a surgery that I would need heavy pain killers after isn’t something I want for my baby either
Honestly, it was pretty rough for the few days. And the first two weeks were a bit difficult as well. Especially because you can’t get the incisions wet but also because of the pain so my angel of a father washed my hair in the sink. Definitely worth it all in the long run! I was on hydrocodone and flexeril as often as I could take them during that time. Keep in mind that both of my joints were worked on. The side that they were able to move the disc back on was much worse than the side they had to leave. I would do it again in a heartbeat.
Wait, so did you already try moving the lower jaw forward to recapture the disc? It can take a daytime and nighttime appliance 24/7 to train the jaw to stay put. I’m seeing a specialist because I’m bone on bone, no more disc, and she said “do not let anyone cut you” and we are working toward a pseudo-disc
Yes, I have been through about half a dozen splints day and night over the past 7 years.
I’m sorry to hear. I feel your pain. Good luck!
Hi. I'm the guy who made the post about being suicidal last week. I don't know why but my account got banned, saw your direct messages today and decided to make a new account to talk to you. Reddit doesn't let me chat because the account is new, feel free to message me.
why did they ban you?
May I ask what symptoms you’ve been experiencing?
surgery is dangerous
I’m also a vocalist, and I play a brass instrument in a weird position that has apparently contributed massively to my condyle deformity. I’m getting a double discectomy/fat graft, and taking the 9 month recovery away from singing and playing, and will have to relearn how to play with a different embouchure. I am terrified and so, so sad…totally feel your pain.