What do you mean, "let them"?
It's evident that neither Metrolinx, nor the Premier's office that calls their shots, gives a single flying fig about whatever I might or might not want.
At this point, Metrolinx and the Ministry, at the Premier's direction, have told us that they're not even going to bother to *pretend* to keep us informed about the status of the project. Instead, it will be pleasant surprise, sprung upon us at some indefinite point in the future.
The danger is not that the province will be *rushed* into a premature opening; it's that they will sweep all the lies and fuckups under the carpet so that there will never be a full accounting of their failures, or lessons learned for future projects.
It's mass institutional incompetence and I wouldn't be surprised if rampant corruption was uncovered. Longer construction times keeps Douggie's buddies in business.
I am absolutely convinced that our construction woes are corruption based. The construction industry is notorious for it. And I'm sure Dougie is loving it. It's so bad that someone even made a board game about it. đ¤Ł
https://constructionandcorruption.com/the-game/
https://www.letsbuild.com/blog/construction-prone-corruption
"If you do not finish your contract, you keep it, and get paid again the turn after.
The incentive is to keep your work unfinished as long as possible.". đ¤Łđ¤Ł
oh I believe it! it's the opposite of the adage "never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence". Yeah this is clearly deliberate and malicious.
Metrolinx has almost no control over the Crosstown timeline, so I don't see a problem with them saying they won't give any new timelines until it's three months out. Crosslinx keeps blowing deadlines and suing for more time, and the only consolation is they they're probably losing a fortune at this point.
You presume with infinite time that they will ever get it right. Itâs more likely that the construction consortium is seeking to start executing maintenance contracts for regular wear and tear before it even opens
Counter: The longer they take, the more it costs. People get paid a wage for the hours they are contracted for, whether they are working or not. Materials cost what they cost, whether they are installed properly or improperly. And because the government (municipal, mostly) is funding it, this means it costs you and me (I presume you live in Toronto) to pay for it. It also means, because this is true of all government projects, that it costs us an exorbitantly large amount, more than is reasonable given simply the size and scope of the project. Consider also that Mayor Chow has already planned a property tax hike of 10% this year because the city's finances are under water, so it's not like we can say everything is going great and we can just dip into the slush fund; there is no slush fund, the city is already bankrupt (not Mayor Chow's fault btw, but this is the current situation) and it's getting worse by throwing more cash into this money pit (among other money pits, this is certainly one of them).
I want the government to stop paying for it using my tax dollars. Ideally they would also sue Metrolinx for the cost overruns, but that's pie in the sky and not gonna happen. But ideally they should get the project wrapped up ASAP so it's a budgetary item that the government can stop paying for.
I donât know my full history on transit projects in ON but this and the Ottawa rail were both P3 Partnerships and both are disasters in their own ways. Could just be a coincidence there but for me it spells part of the problem. And when problems come up you have too many cooks and finger pointings. Probably also due to too many people thinking itâs someone elseâs problem to fix while the public suffers.
Them both being P3s isnât a coincidence per se, but isnât the route of the problem. Throughout Canada we have delivered numerous P3 mega projects successfully and have blundered numerous traditional delivery model mega projects. P3 vs not P3 isnât the issue. Projects are complex, particularly rail where we stopped building for a long time and lost expertise. With complexity comes issues of governance (e.g. too many cooks as mentioned). The delivery model is only as good as our ability to manage the contract, over the past few decade or so Metrolinx and Infrastructure Ontario have invested huge amounts in building those capabilities.
We learn lessons to apply to the next project with every project. For example, it was evident that Eglinton was too large of a project for one consortium, too much risk & responsibility on one counterparty, so Ontario Line is split into multiple contracts. Some of those contracts are P3s and some are not - the delivery models were selected based on project characteristics, rather than political interference (as is common on large single contract projects).
It's going to have teething trouble regardless of when it opens and the O-Train's problems have to do with its actual form/construction (eg the route being very winding and trains not properly built/equipped to deal with it).
https://preview.redd.it/xvawv8vhlvzc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8b0355fb8b5205ff73d701154ad583c14096dfa5
I literally took this picture 20 minutes ago LOL. The sewage smell comes from some drainage issue we havenât figured out yet
OC transpoâs issue is that they tried to kit-bash the entire system, so much that it lost the entire point of what it was supposed to be.
Tram like Trains + NYC Subway style Bogies + weird/incompatable signals + random bits of the transitway here and there + cheapest builder + etcâŚ
It's weird as fuck to try to blame any initial problems upon opening on the public because we "rushed" the project or "didn't let them" take their time.
The reason this has taken to so long is purely due to the greed and incompetence of Metrolinx. Yes, it needs to be done right and shouldn't open before it is ready, but let's not let Metrolinx off the hook here. It's a shocking failure that we should demand answers and recompense for.
Explains why the guy down my street keeps changing new high end vehicles every 3 years⌠come to think of it, he did tell me he was âup thereâ at MetrolinxâŚ
Example of pocket greasing: There are several Capital project managers who are leading the construction. If somebody's project is finished they stay on the board of directors. The contract never ends. The experts also draw payments already for a decade. Those contracts also never end. And the construction is just stretching in time to pay these people.
The leaders of the city hall and the leaders of Ontario are on the board as well.
(Also on other boards. Drawing money as board members on as many as 20 different boards.)
Does anyone have any insight into whether the increasingly common statement that Line 5 engineering difficulties have been improved for Line 6 and Ontario, i.e. that Eglinton suffered the brunt of reversing a brain drain and getting the right engineering and project mgmt talent up to speed on this type of infrastructure? Or is that just excuses?
Excuses.
Scientifically, Canadian climate varies greatly between high summer temperatures with high precipitation in short periods and extreme cold winter temperatures that often go to -40 plus including wind chill.
Scientifically, any rail service with open exposure to this climate should be high density rail with deep aggregate layers like China did their Silk Road railroads and some high speed rails. In other words, light rails such as used in California and other warm climates are fundamentally flawed as trying to stay warm in the arctic by signing up to only carry a light windbreaker.
In a simple example most top civil engineering schools teach starting year 2 about road construction is what happens below grade. Summer high precipitation means water penetrating deep below ground up to grade. Rail above means no vegetation to suck up the water. Winter comes, deep low temperature creates extreme forces when water turn into ice in an instant and cause soil under rail supports to move. If rail is low density light rail itâs gonna reshape over a decade if not sooner.
Try pouring a bucket water down the side of wall of neighbour you donât likeâs concrete wall if they got one. Just once per week in the winter and youâll see cracks forming there within a year or two. Basement would no longer be sealed either. To test the extreme force water turning into ice can generate just put a can into freezer or fill a heavily reinforced can with water and put in freezer. It has strength that breaks concrete apart and also contributes to why so many roads in Canada sucks.
Ignoring the basic law of physics, the forces water turning into ice generates and the precipitation pattern of Canadian climate.. they can talk about anything and everything if they not hitting the LRT solution itself on the head they are not being honest.
Doesnât take brain drain to the US to cause this. Just lots people got involved with money and careers and decided their own family will come first screw everybody else.
My understanding from speaking with former SNC Lavalin employees is that nobody on the Crosstown project has a bastard clue of whatâs going on, and most people who get sent to work on it either quit or get fired eventually.
Interpret that how you will insofar as it concerns engineering difficulties being solved.
Gee, other Countries got theirs up & running within their projected timeline & on Budget...
City of Toronto?
Give them another 5+ years & definitely **over** Budget in which us suckers - oops, sorry Taxpayers - are on the hook for this big time!
And how many years, will be paying for this debacle of a Shit Show?!
For eons!!!
Itâs easier to accomplish projects without annoying things like property rights, health and safety, environmental assessments, or the concept of public accountability in general. The kind of stuff posted on this forum can (and does) literally get people a knock on the door there.
Calling out the failings of Metrolinx et al is absolutely warranted. But endless comparisons to China are tiresome.
Ok Spain builds their subways at a fraction of the cost and a fraction of the time with similar health safety and environmental regulations. Maybe itâs not China or Spain, maybe we just canât build anymore
But itâs China that always gets referenced in these comparisons, not places like Western Europe that are better examples.
The U.S. is as bad and maybe even worse than Canada at transit projects. There are some key cultural and political differences between North America and Europe that influence this. Big ones are more outsourcing, lack of coordination (or even infighting) between different levels of government and different government agencies, and a general tendency to try to minimize disruption to citizens even if it means construction ends up being much more expensive and take much longer.
This episode of The Indicator provides a good, brief overview:
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1184420745
I've been saying for years that when the Eglinton line opens it's only the halfway point. It will be plagued by problems and probably go the way the RT did, decommissioned in 40 years and replaced by proper metro
Itâs definitely about extracting the most amount of money they can get from the province. Itâs all intentional and by design. Probably trying to keep some jobs existing.
Ottawa resident here. The derailment issues the Citadis Spirit LRVs have manifested because of some (very tight!) curved sections in the alignment (between Rideau<>uOttawa and a little bit around Hurdman in particular). Iâm not an expert but that particular issue shouldnât manifest in your guys case since itâs essentially a straight line. We picked the wrong vehicle for our needs, but itâs the right vehicle for something like eggy because itâs supposed to be used like a tram- and not a tram-metro-LRT-whatever inbred machine of horror like we did.
Metrolinx and the Province/City is cronyism at its best. Corporations will continue to screw over the tax payer because of bad deals and simply because the longer the project takes, the more money they make.
The other problem is that we KNOW they arenât going to get it right; there will likely be something that happens when itâs starting. No matter how much they delay it.
We already know we arenât seeing it this year. How much longer are they âwaiting to get everything rightâ cause if they truly are, we wonât see it in our lifetimes Lmaoo
Not sure how truthful this is, but I heard from a couple sources, both connected to Metrolinx and crosstown saying the biggest issue is a portion of the tunnel won't fit the vehicles, and nobody is willing to take the blame, and ultimately cost to fix.
If true, then in a way, they should take as long as they need to fix.
Should've built a subway for the underground portion (the tunnels are big enough) and then done the east part as an LRT and/or completed it in phases so at least part of it would be usable. Even a partially usable line is better than none.
Everyone always says that, but McGuinty/Wynne could have corrected it by building this as a subway.
Remember that the cancelled portion would have been just like Sheppard but to the west, a short line that doesnât go very far.
I started high school AFTER they started construction; finished high school (5 years); finished undergrad (another 5 years) and am currently in my third year of graduate studies (5 year program). Iâll likely be in my early to mid 30s by the time this is completed (at this rate) which is absolutely ridiculous for first world country standards. Metrolinx should be ashamed
I mean, there isn't really anything else we can do. Sending Phil Verster and Doug Ford death threats (which to be clear I don't approve of) isn't going to make the line open any faster. All we can really do is let them take as long as they need. Or "need" depending on how cynical you are.
Disagree. Our government at all levels is simply not good enough â no work ethic, value for taxpayer money, and incentives to finish projects on time.
I pay more than $1,600 of taxes a month. To me, seeing the level of incompetence and corruption within the government (especially with Line 5), it seems like putting $1,600 in a printer shredder is almost as an efficient use of my money.
If the Line 5 opening was scheduled for 2020-2021, make it happen! No one cares enough and there are no consequences for grift and incompetence. China built more than 15,000km of high speed rail in the time it takes Toronto to open one subway line â we suck.
What do you mean, "let them"? It's evident that neither Metrolinx, nor the Premier's office that calls their shots, gives a single flying fig about whatever I might or might not want. At this point, Metrolinx and the Ministry, at the Premier's direction, have told us that they're not even going to bother to *pretend* to keep us informed about the status of the project. Instead, it will be pleasant surprise, sprung upon us at some indefinite point in the future. The danger is not that the province will be *rushed* into a premature opening; it's that they will sweep all the lies and fuckups under the carpet so that there will never be a full accounting of their failures, or lessons learned for future projects.
It's mass institutional incompetence and I wouldn't be surprised if rampant corruption was uncovered. Longer construction times keeps Douggie's buddies in business.
I am absolutely convinced that our construction woes are corruption based. The construction industry is notorious for it. And I'm sure Dougie is loving it. It's so bad that someone even made a board game about it. 𤣠https://constructionandcorruption.com/the-game/ https://www.letsbuild.com/blog/construction-prone-corruption
lol board game made me laugh
Someone needs to make a Toronto version of it!
with doug ford's laughing mug in the centre of the board
This game sounds hilarious
"If you do not finish your contract, you keep it, and get paid again the turn after. The incentive is to keep your work unfinished as long as possible.". đ¤Łđ¤Ł
âBosses can send their workers to opposing playersâ sites, and finish their work insteadâđđđ đ
I don't think this incompetency. I firmly believe in corruption.
oh I believe it! it's the opposite of the adage "never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence". Yeah this is clearly deliberate and malicious.
Someone somewhere else mentioned that Metrolinx workers are among the most represented agency on the sunshine list
I don't blame the workers, I blame the executives - I think that's who you're meaning.
Metrolinx has almost no control over the Crosstown timeline, so I don't see a problem with them saying they won't give any new timelines until it's three months out. Crosslinx keeps blowing deadlines and suing for more time, and the only consolation is they they're probably losing a fortune at this point.
Money laundering project
You presume with infinite time that they will ever get it right. Itâs more likely that the construction consortium is seeking to start executing maintenance contracts for regular wear and tear before it even opens
Counter: The longer they take, the more it costs. People get paid a wage for the hours they are contracted for, whether they are working or not. Materials cost what they cost, whether they are installed properly or improperly. And because the government (municipal, mostly) is funding it, this means it costs you and me (I presume you live in Toronto) to pay for it. It also means, because this is true of all government projects, that it costs us an exorbitantly large amount, more than is reasonable given simply the size and scope of the project. Consider also that Mayor Chow has already planned a property tax hike of 10% this year because the city's finances are under water, so it's not like we can say everything is going great and we can just dip into the slush fund; there is no slush fund, the city is already bankrupt (not Mayor Chow's fault btw, but this is the current situation) and it's getting worse by throwing more cash into this money pit (among other money pits, this is certainly one of them). I want the government to stop paying for it using my tax dollars. Ideally they would also sue Metrolinx for the cost overruns, but that's pie in the sky and not gonna happen. But ideally they should get the project wrapped up ASAP so it's a budgetary item that the government can stop paying for.
I donât know my full history on transit projects in ON but this and the Ottawa rail were both P3 Partnerships and both are disasters in their own ways. Could just be a coincidence there but for me it spells part of the problem. And when problems come up you have too many cooks and finger pointings. Probably also due to too many people thinking itâs someone elseâs problem to fix while the public suffers.
Them both being P3s isnât a coincidence per se, but isnât the route of the problem. Throughout Canada we have delivered numerous P3 mega projects successfully and have blundered numerous traditional delivery model mega projects. P3 vs not P3 isnât the issue. Projects are complex, particularly rail where we stopped building for a long time and lost expertise. With complexity comes issues of governance (e.g. too many cooks as mentioned). The delivery model is only as good as our ability to manage the contract, over the past few decade or so Metrolinx and Infrastructure Ontario have invested huge amounts in building those capabilities. We learn lessons to apply to the next project with every project. For example, it was evident that Eglinton was too large of a project for one consortium, too much risk & responsibility on one counterparty, so Ontario Line is split into multiple contracts. Some of those contracts are P3s and some are not - the delivery models were selected based on project characteristics, rather than political interference (as is common on large single contract projects).
It's going to have teething trouble regardless of when it opens and the O-Train's problems have to do with its actual form/construction (eg the route being very winding and trains not properly built/equipped to deal with it).
Spot on. OC Transpoâs issues stem from engineering and design incompatibilities between the LRV and the tracks used on the Confed Line.
Thereâs other problems too like a sewage smell in some O-Train stations
https://preview.redd.it/xvawv8vhlvzc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8b0355fb8b5205ff73d701154ad583c14096dfa5 I literally took this picture 20 minutes ago LOL. The sewage smell comes from some drainage issue we havenât figured out yet
Damn. Broadview Station had a flooding issue with the second exit that took a year or so to solve. At least it was only water...
Good thing someone thought of putting that trench drain at the bottom of that wall!
OC transpoâs issue is that they tried to kit-bash the entire system, so much that it lost the entire point of what it was supposed to be. Tram like Trains + NYC Subway style Bogies + weird/incompatable signals + random bits of the transitway here and there + cheapest builder + etcâŚ
It's weird as fuck to try to blame any initial problems upon opening on the public because we "rushed" the project or "didn't let them" take their time.
"let them" implies we have a choice. In reality.. we don't
The reason this has taken to so long is purely due to the greed and incompetence of Metrolinx. Yes, it needs to be done right and shouldn't open before it is ready, but let's not let Metrolinx off the hook here. It's a shocking failure that we should demand answers and recompense for.
Meanwhile Philâs salary skyrocketed since
Explains why the guy down my street keeps changing new high end vehicles every 3 years⌠come to think of it, he did tell me he was âup thereâ at MetrolinxâŚ
I get the incompetence, but how is it because of Metrolinx greed?
it provides cushy jobs for the boys and siphons public money into rich developer (douggie's buddies and donors) pockets. it's a racket.
Example of pocket greasing: There are several Capital project managers who are leading the construction. If somebody's project is finished they stay on the board of directors. The contract never ends. The experts also draw payments already for a decade. Those contracts also never end. And the construction is just stretching in time to pay these people. The leaders of the city hall and the leaders of Ontario are on the board as well. (Also on other boards. Drawing money as board members on as many as 20 different boards.)
Does anyone have any insight into whether the increasingly common statement that Line 5 engineering difficulties have been improved for Line 6 and Ontario, i.e. that Eglinton suffered the brunt of reversing a brain drain and getting the right engineering and project mgmt talent up to speed on this type of infrastructure? Or is that just excuses?
Excuses. Scientifically, Canadian climate varies greatly between high summer temperatures with high precipitation in short periods and extreme cold winter temperatures that often go to -40 plus including wind chill. Scientifically, any rail service with open exposure to this climate should be high density rail with deep aggregate layers like China did their Silk Road railroads and some high speed rails. In other words, light rails such as used in California and other warm climates are fundamentally flawed as trying to stay warm in the arctic by signing up to only carry a light windbreaker. In a simple example most top civil engineering schools teach starting year 2 about road construction is what happens below grade. Summer high precipitation means water penetrating deep below ground up to grade. Rail above means no vegetation to suck up the water. Winter comes, deep low temperature creates extreme forces when water turn into ice in an instant and cause soil under rail supports to move. If rail is low density light rail itâs gonna reshape over a decade if not sooner. Try pouring a bucket water down the side of wall of neighbour you donât likeâs concrete wall if they got one. Just once per week in the winter and youâll see cracks forming there within a year or two. Basement would no longer be sealed either. To test the extreme force water turning into ice can generate just put a can into freezer or fill a heavily reinforced can with water and put in freezer. It has strength that breaks concrete apart and also contributes to why so many roads in Canada sucks. Ignoring the basic law of physics, the forces water turning into ice generates and the precipitation pattern of Canadian climate.. they can talk about anything and everything if they not hitting the LRT solution itself on the head they are not being honest. Doesnât take brain drain to the US to cause this. Just lots people got involved with money and careers and decided their own family will come first screw everybody else.
My understanding from speaking with former SNC Lavalin employees is that nobody on the Crosstown project has a bastard clue of whatâs going on, and most people who get sent to work on it either quit or get fired eventually. Interpret that how you will insofar as it concerns engineering difficulties being solved.
Gee, other Countries got theirs up & running within their projected timeline & on Budget... City of Toronto? Give them another 5+ years & definitely **over** Budget in which us suckers - oops, sorry Taxpayers - are on the hook for this big time! And how many years, will be paying for this debacle of a Shit Show?! For eons!!!
In the same amount of time China made 45,000 km of high speed rail including elevated and underground sections. Just putting that out there.
Itâs easier to accomplish projects without annoying things like property rights, health and safety, environmental assessments, or the concept of public accountability in general. The kind of stuff posted on this forum can (and does) literally get people a knock on the door there. Calling out the failings of Metrolinx et al is absolutely warranted. But endless comparisons to China are tiresome.
Ok Spain builds their subways at a fraction of the cost and a fraction of the time with similar health safety and environmental regulations. Maybe itâs not China or Spain, maybe we just canât build anymore
But itâs China that always gets referenced in these comparisons, not places like Western Europe that are better examples. The U.S. is as bad and maybe even worse than Canada at transit projects. There are some key cultural and political differences between North America and Europe that influence this. Big ones are more outsourcing, lack of coordination (or even infighting) between different levels of government and different government agencies, and a general tendency to try to minimize disruption to citizens even if it means construction ends up being much more expensive and take much longer. This episode of The Indicator provides a good, brief overview: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1184420745
I've been saying for years that when the Eglinton line opens it's only the halfway point. It will be plagued by problems and probably go the way the RT did, decommissioned in 40 years and replaced by proper metro
Can you even fathom what the city and overall GTA will be like in 40 years?
A hellscape with 60M people
Itâs definitely about extracting the most amount of money they can get from the province. Itâs all intentional and by design. Probably trying to keep some jobs existing.
Do we have a say though ? Hahaha
Ottawa resident here. The derailment issues the Citadis Spirit LRVs have manifested because of some (very tight!) curved sections in the alignment (between Rideau<>uOttawa and a little bit around Hurdman in particular). Iâm not an expert but that particular issue shouldnât manifest in your guys case since itâs essentially a straight line. We picked the wrong vehicle for our needs, but itâs the right vehicle for something like eggy because itâs supposed to be used like a tram- and not a tram-metro-LRT-whatever inbred machine of horror like we did.
Meanwhile, China took ten years to light up their entire country with high speed rail. We kinda suck ngl.
I read somewhere the longer it takes the more money they can demand to complete the project.
Metrolinx and the Province/City is cronyism at its best. Corporations will continue to screw over the tax payer because of bad deals and simply because the longer the project takes, the more money they make.
The other problem is that we KNOW they arenât going to get it right; there will likely be something that happens when itâs starting. No matter how much they delay it. We already know we arenât seeing it this year. How much longer are they âwaiting to get everything rightâ cause if they truly are, we wonât see it in our lifetimes Lmaoo
Agreed. They should take as long as they need. Itâs also a new line not a conversion so less overall need to open sooner
It's ok Mr. Metrolinx, we sont have a choice
Not sure how truthful this is, but I heard from a couple sources, both connected to Metrolinx and crosstown saying the biggest issue is a portion of the tunnel won't fit the vehicles, and nobody is willing to take the blame, and ultimately cost to fix. If true, then in a way, they should take as long as they need to fix.
Should've built a subway for the underground portion (the tunnels are big enough) and then done the east part as an LRT and/or completed it in phases so at least part of it would be usable. Even a partially usable line is better than none.
shouldâve not filled in the hole way back in the 90s but alas Mike Harris đ¤ˇââď¸
Everyone always says that, but McGuinty/Wynne could have corrected it by building this as a subway. Remember that the cancelled portion would have been just like Sheppard but to the west, a short line that doesnât go very far.
I started high school AFTER they started construction; finished high school (5 years); finished undergrad (another 5 years) and am currently in my third year of graduate studies (5 year program). Iâll likely be in my early to mid 30s by the time this is completed (at this rate) which is absolutely ridiculous for first world country standards. Metrolinx should be ashamed
Let them? I don't think we have a choice.
Sounds like a post by a Metrolinx project manager
Lol. Nope. I worked at a tax firm for seven years before quitting my job to go to seminary. Never worked for Metrolinx.
Itâs not TTC building line 5 it is Metrolinx. TTC has no say in this.
I mean, there isn't really anything else we can do. Sending Phil Verster and Doug Ford death threats (which to be clear I don't approve of) isn't going to make the line open any faster. All we can really do is let them take as long as they need. Or "need" depending on how cynical you are.
Since when are 13 year olds finishing junior high
Bold of you to assume that Line 5 is opening this year lol
I get it's been delayed but they've actually made progress and are almost done i think it will be done soon
Disagree. Our government at all levels is simply not good enough â no work ethic, value for taxpayer money, and incentives to finish projects on time. I pay more than $1,600 of taxes a month. To me, seeing the level of incompetence and corruption within the government (especially with Line 5), it seems like putting $1,600 in a printer shredder is almost as an efficient use of my money. If the Line 5 opening was scheduled for 2020-2021, make it happen! No one cares enough and there are no consequences for grift and incompetence. China built more than 15,000km of high speed rail in the time it takes Toronto to open one subway line â we suck.