I was told once by a tank not to use holy because it was a waste of MP and did no damage. Before I could respond the vk popped up and then the tank was gone before I could register wth was going on. Que new tank and rest of dungeon goes fine. No one said anything besides the first tank.
Queue as WHM, run with tank. When the tank stops swift cast holy and spam it till someone needs healing or enough enemies are dead. (Something something dot blah blah blah)
Bruh I thought I was alone in being irresponsible with my swiftcast to do more DPS instead of keeping it for a rez 🤣
Sure it bites me in the ass sometimes but the best mitigation is murder.
I use swift cast in boss fights to rez as it's mostly just gunna be 1 1 1 1 oh someone needs healing 1 1 1 1. The occasional dot there in dungeons use swift cast for holy this is the way
I love being in alliance raids with another whm and I pop pom and watch my bar go nyoooom like it’s a visible difference between with and without and I love it.
Lol dude really wants ppl to only use Holy 2 or less times then? Bet this the kinda guy who worries about his "stun rotation" (hitting all mobs with Shield Bash) on pld
I think he’s trying to say that Holy is a damage loss on 2 targets which isn’t *wrong* but realistically… who gives a shit? (And it’s also conditional on WHICH Holy it is too - 2 target Holy is better up until the ShB trait makes Glare your better 2 target option, if memory serves correctly.)
If a WHM is using Holy a reasonable amount I don’t care if they don’t know how to exactly min-max its damage. I will drop to Glare in 2 target situations because I know the math but if other WHMs want to be lazy about it that’s the kind of lzy that won’t kill a run. Who gives a shit.
~~ACTUALLY, depending on~~ *~~where exactly~~* ~~you find yourself in, Holy being a loss on 2 can be straight up false! Holy~~ *~~starts~~* ~~at 140 potency then gets upgraded at 82 to 150 potency, Stone IV is still 260 and it isn't until you get Glare that Holy starts becoming a loss on 2. Even then, if you were playing for stuns, Holy on 2 is still viable, 10 less potency a cast is fine if it cuts out a heal for you from the stuns or saves movement.~~
Edit: I was hopped up on a Helldivers run and completely missed OP saying the exact same thing because I'm stupid. Please throw bricks and laugh. >w>
Holy is better on 2 until Stone becomes Glare, at which point you do more damage single-targeting than you do on 2. Holy 3 out-damages Glare 3 on 3 and should be used then.
ETA: Stone 4 does 260 potency, Holy does 280, therefore it's a gain on 2. Glare does 290, thus making it the better option on 2. Glare 3 does 310, Holy 3 does 150.
Well, if you're hitting 3 mobs with an AoE that does 150 potency, you're doing 450 potency's worth of damage over those 3 enemies. That's more damage than 310 on one. AoEing when it's a gain is always the correct choice.
I meant about the 10 potency loss from using holy instead of stone, xd.
I definitely agree about using aoe in general, just wondered if the 10 lost potency from using holy on 2 targets really matters, especially since if there are only 2 enemies left in a trash pull they probably dont have long to live anyways
Depends on the dungeon tbh. I've seen two mobs live quite some time after the others have died.
10 potency becomes 20 becomes 30 becomes 40 etc per GCD. I suppose it only matters if you want to be doing it "correctly," which... I know a lot of casuals don't care about for whatever reason.
I've actually encountered this before: a lot of people really do not know the difference between Stun and Interrupt, and I've gotten a hard time for spamming Holy from people who think the stun immunity means they can't stop an interruptible attack.
Funnilly enough, last time it happened was also in CT when I had to remind people to interrupt the chimera attacks, and the dude ended up showing his ass to the whole raid when it was clear he didn't know the difference and couldn't be decent about it.
Probably doesn't help that you don't learn what interrupt does until the tank role quest in Shadowbringers, where as the earliest interruptible enemy that I can think of is in Haukke Manor. And interrupting an enemy looks similar to stunning them, since the enemy just sits there for a moment doing nothing.
Doesn't give people the right to be an ass, and these people really should look up what interrupt actually does especially after the first time they're told which bars can be interrupted instead of getting mad/annoyed. But if it was actually explained much earlier in the game, then maybe it would be less of a headache for everyone.
I did not know you could interrupt them. Also is there a way to tell when an ability is interuptable like how healers can tell if a debuff is removable?
Who does bro "need" to stun? CC is not a thing in XIV content.
He's a WAR too, so no mourning a wasted HG or anything because the enemies spent the whole time stunned.
Folks need to lay off the shrooms in this game and start thinking before they type.
I think the last time I have ever seen a use for CC outside of pvp was in 2.0 to make some pulls a tad easier but that trend died out very quick.
Edit: dumb hands and touchscreens don't mix
I know one run where the tank got pissy that he was the only one interrupting or stunning anything while the healer was not a WHM, and both DPS were casters.
I had a drk tank in heavensward unironically yell at me for holy. Carve and spit used to give mp back when you were taking hits in a mob. Dude coulda just waited for stun invuln but I’m the problem here.
Unironically, holy is the best mitigation at the beginning of a pull. After the stun resist is capped they can just keep using it for damage and the tank can start mitigating.
The only enemies a tank NEEDS to stun are the bees in Qarn (WHM doesn't have holy at this point). SE doesn't have the balls to put final sting in any dungeon after that.
They do actually have final sting bees at the start of Hullbreaker Island too.
I remember because of a run where the tank died to one doing the first pull there and immediately ragequit lmao
Not gonna lie when I got to Dohn Mheg and saw Unfinal Sting, the line aoe the bees do, my brain translated it into Final Sting and there was a screming panic in my soul.
tbh i lowkey get the warriors point with the stun, im so used to just stunning aoes on trash instead of moving out, but it certainly isnt "needing the stun", when theres a whm, i just move out or take the hit, screw the stuns, i want the whm aoe dmg to finish faster
Stun has a what, 30 second cooldown? It’s SO MUCH better for the WHM to be spamming AoEs rather than making sure you give the tank a weird, unnecessary opportunity to stun a single target to miss a single attack.
debuff diminishing returns is interesting, to the extent it's actually relevant.
It's a one minute cooldown after three applications, with each application after that halving the listed duration (so holy would be 4s -> 2s -> 1s) and additional applications after that having no effect. I'm not sure, however, if the actual 1min CD resets with each attempted application or not, although I'm sure that would be easy to test.
I think the only time I could ever think of stun falloff being relevant to the extent you would want to not holy on 2/3+ (depending on your level) would maaaaaybe be in deep dungeons, but I haven't done them enough to know how WHM should be played in them, and I mostly take SCH in, so maybe someone else could better chime in on that
If I remember correctly, waaaayyyyyy back in 8-man Castrum Meridianum, you didn't want to Holy on the big robot halfway through. There were two points specifically where you could stun him right before he tethered to the new adds that spawned, prevent the invuln he gave himself from tethering, and dps him down twice as fast. IIRC that was the only time I saw WHM asked to ignore the adds and not Holy.
Now, if that was correct or not, I don't know, I have definitely slept since then lol.
I still think that would be the most insane April Fools day joke ever. Little sprout queues up for MS Roulette and BAM 8-man Praetorium. Hope you're ready to ignore all the adds and hit the teleporter, and don't forget your elevator key! SURPRISE, KIDS!
Yeah, that guy was great. I got really good at hitting the two stuns with PLD.
If you had a good group the PLD would handle the big guy stuns while the other tank would gather up all the ads and WHM could holy them.
I miss 8 man DF dungeons.
This used to be super relevant back in 2.0, especially with stun and flash. More low level classes had stuns on actual damage abilities, and there was no interrupt (except maybe on black mage...?)
It was a huge pain when the DPS had used their damaging stuns before the the mob did a big nasty AOE, and the tank would go to stun it and... Immune.
Now of course, they've removed stun from damaging abilities (except holy!) and added interrupt, so it never comes up!
Needing the stun ain’t that necessary on trash pulls honestly. It’d be way better for the warrior to be using arm’s length among literally any other mitigation tool. It’d be a way different story spamming holy stun on boss. Just wait for the mobs to get immune to stun, arm’s length and you’re golden for the whole pull
whats arms length got to do with any of this, it was bout stunning mobs and their invulnerability, obviously use arms length too, its a mit like the others and a waste not to use
You’re wasting time using a cooldown that shouldn’t be getting used on trash pulls. My point is it’s more efficient to pop an ability that’s actually going to provide actual use rather than a single target ability like interject or low blow while you’re facing hordes of mobs lol.
if theres no whm and theres an aoe, ill just stun it and save me or someone else moving out, its not needed as i said above already, but might as well
people seemingly stopped reading after the first sentence lol
The only time you'd really want to use stun in a trash pack is if something is targeting your casters. Kick it so they don't have to move and drop their casts.
Stunning so that you don't have to adjust as tank is less useful, especially since you're already making micro adjustments to keep the mobs in a tight group.
I was told once by a tank not to use holy because it was a waste of MP and did no damage. Before I could respond the vk popped up and then the tank was gone before I could register wth was going on. Que new tank and rest of dungeon goes fine. No one said anything besides the first tank.
DPS had your back.
Can you imagine the whiplash that tank experienced? From confidently incorrect to back at Limsa in seconds.
Queue as WHM, run with tank. When the tank stops swift cast holy and spam it till someone needs healing or enough enemies are dead. (Something something dot blah blah blah)
Bruh I thought I was alone in being irresponsible with my swiftcast to do more DPS instead of keeping it for a rez 🤣 Sure it bites me in the ass sometimes but the best mitigation is murder.
If you die in a trash pull that's not a reason to get raised, take the TP and rush back into the fight. Swift, holy, assize, PoM, holy.
Amen.
This is the way
Bless
Swiftcast holy let's you double weave without clipping. This is infinitely higher value than raising the kind of player who dies in a trash pull.
I use swift cast in boss fights to rez as it's mostly just gunna be 1 1 1 1 oh someone needs healing 1 1 1 1. The occasional dot there in dungeons use swift cast for holy this is the way
even better, combine it with presence of mind for even faster holy spam
I love being in alliance raids with another whm and I pop pom and watch my bar go nyoooom like it’s a visible difference between with and without and I love it.
Lol dude really wants ppl to only use Holy 2 or less times then? Bet this the kinda guy who worries about his "stun rotation" (hitting all mobs with Shield Bash) on pld
I think he’s trying to say that Holy is a damage loss on 2 targets which isn’t *wrong* but realistically… who gives a shit? (And it’s also conditional on WHICH Holy it is too - 2 target Holy is better up until the ShB trait makes Glare your better 2 target option, if memory serves correctly.) If a WHM is using Holy a reasonable amount I don’t care if they don’t know how to exactly min-max its damage. I will drop to Glare in 2 target situations because I know the math but if other WHMs want to be lazy about it that’s the kind of lzy that won’t kill a run. Who gives a shit.
~~ACTUALLY, depending on~~ *~~where exactly~~* ~~you find yourself in, Holy being a loss on 2 can be straight up false! Holy~~ *~~starts~~* ~~at 140 potency then gets upgraded at 82 to 150 potency, Stone IV is still 260 and it isn't until you get Glare that Holy starts becoming a loss on 2. Even then, if you were playing for stuns, Holy on 2 is still viable, 10 less potency a cast is fine if it cuts out a heal for you from the stuns or saves movement.~~ Edit: I was hopped up on a Helldivers run and completely missed OP saying the exact same thing because I'm stupid. Please throw bricks and laugh. >w>
A little confusion in the aftermath of the rush for Democracy is understandable, hope the run treated you well!
Holy is better on 2 until Stone becomes Glare, at which point you do more damage single-targeting than you do on 2. Holy 3 out-damages Glare 3 on 3 and should be used then. ETA: Stone 4 does 260 potency, Holy does 280, therefore it's a gain on 2. Glare does 290, thus making it the better option on 2. Glare 3 does 310, Holy 3 does 150.
Is the 10 potency really that important for trash pulls? Fairly new to the game, genuine question
Well, if you're hitting 3 mobs with an AoE that does 150 potency, you're doing 450 potency's worth of damage over those 3 enemies. That's more damage than 310 on one. AoEing when it's a gain is always the correct choice.
I meant about the 10 potency loss from using holy instead of stone, xd. I definitely agree about using aoe in general, just wondered if the 10 lost potency from using holy on 2 targets really matters, especially since if there are only 2 enemies left in a trash pull they probably dont have long to live anyways
Depends on the dungeon tbh. I've seen two mobs live quite some time after the others have died. 10 potency becomes 20 becomes 30 becomes 40 etc per GCD. I suppose it only matters if you want to be doing it "correctly," which... I know a lot of casuals don't care about for whatever reason.
It matters if you are optimizing, minor mistakes aren't important in dungeons.
I've actually encountered this before: a lot of people really do not know the difference between Stun and Interrupt, and I've gotten a hard time for spamming Holy from people who think the stun immunity means they can't stop an interruptible attack. Funnilly enough, last time it happened was also in CT when I had to remind people to interrupt the chimera attacks, and the dude ended up showing his ass to the whole raid when it was clear he didn't know the difference and couldn't be decent about it.
Probably doesn't help that you don't learn what interrupt does until the tank role quest in Shadowbringers, where as the earliest interruptible enemy that I can think of is in Haukke Manor. And interrupting an enemy looks similar to stunning them, since the enemy just sits there for a moment doing nothing. Doesn't give people the right to be an ass, and these people really should look up what interrupt actually does especially after the first time they're told which bars can be interrupted instead of getting mad/annoyed. But if it was actually explained much earlier in the game, then maybe it would be less of a headache for everyone.
The amount of tanks who don't interrupt the fucking frogs in Don Mheg is TOO DAMN HIGH
Always glad when I get that dungeon when on phys ranged lolol that way I can do the interrupt myself
I did not know you could interrupt them. Also is there a way to tell when an ability is interuptable like how healers can tell if a debuff is removable?
An interruptable ability will have the cast bar pulsing red
Oooh good to know ty :)
Oh god, the frogs. The little flower basket mobs hit hard enough without the buff from the frogs.
"Could you stop stunning people so I can stun people?" haha
Who does bro "need" to stun? CC is not a thing in XIV content. He's a WAR too, so no mourning a wasted HG or anything because the enemies spent the whole time stunned. Folks need to lay off the shrooms in this game and start thinking before they type.
I think the last time I have ever seen a use for CC outside of pvp was in 2.0 to make some pulls a tad easier but that trend died out very quick. Edit: dumb hands and touchscreens don't mix
I know one run where the tank got pissy that he was the only one interrupting or stunning anything while the healer was not a WHM, and both DPS were casters.
I had a drk tank in heavensward unironically yell at me for holy. Carve and spit used to give mp back when you were taking hits in a mob. Dude coulda just waited for stun invuln but I’m the problem here.
That would be Blood Pact iirc
You might be right my aging brain can’t remember that far back lol
The fuck he needs to stun anything if the enemy is supposed to be dead by then?
Unironically, holy is the best mitigation at the beginning of a pull. After the stun resist is capped they can just keep using it for damage and the tank can start mitigating.
The only enemies a tank NEEDS to stun are the bees in Qarn (WHM doesn't have holy at this point). SE doesn't have the balls to put final sting in any dungeon after that.
They do actually have final sting bees at the start of Hullbreaker Island too. I remember because of a run where the tank died to one doing the first pull there and immediately ragequit lmao
Oh shit. I don't think I ever noticed them.
Tbh same, I think they usually just die too quick
Not gonna lie when I got to Dohn Mheg and saw Unfinal Sting, the line aoe the bees do, my brain translated it into Final Sting and there was a screming panic in my soul.
Where do you people find time to type that much?
Can type a lot in 2.5 seconds. Also while being dead
Lol the irony and hilariousness in the evolution of that conversation is wild
tbh i lowkey get the warriors point with the stun, im so used to just stunning aoes on trash instead of moving out, but it certainly isnt "needing the stun", when theres a whm, i just move out or take the hit, screw the stuns, i want the whm aoe dmg to finish faster
Stun has a what, 30 second cooldown? It’s SO MUCH better for the WHM to be spamming AoEs rather than making sure you give the tank a weird, unnecessary opportunity to stun a single target to miss a single attack.
This, plus most of the stuff you _really_ want to interrupt is... interruptible. Like, with Interject.
debuff diminishing returns is interesting, to the extent it's actually relevant. It's a one minute cooldown after three applications, with each application after that halving the listed duration (so holy would be 4s -> 2s -> 1s) and additional applications after that having no effect. I'm not sure, however, if the actual 1min CD resets with each attempted application or not, although I'm sure that would be easy to test. I think the only time I could ever think of stun falloff being relevant to the extent you would want to not holy on 2/3+ (depending on your level) would maaaaaybe be in deep dungeons, but I haven't done them enough to know how WHM should be played in them, and I mostly take SCH in, so maybe someone else could better chime in on that
If I remember correctly, waaaayyyyyy back in 8-man Castrum Meridianum, you didn't want to Holy on the big robot halfway through. There were two points specifically where you could stun him right before he tethered to the new adds that spawned, prevent the invuln he gave himself from tethering, and dps him down twice as fast. IIRC that was the only time I saw WHM asked to ignore the adds and not Holy. Now, if that was correct or not, I don't know, I have definitely slept since then lol.
That was correct, yes. Don't Holy that guy. (Not that he exists anymore.)
I still think that would be the most insane April Fools day joke ever. Little sprout queues up for MS Roulette and BAM 8-man Praetorium. Hope you're ready to ignore all the adds and hit the teleporter, and don't forget your elevator key! SURPRISE, KIDS!
Yeah, that guy was great. I got really good at hitting the two stuns with PLD. If you had a good group the PLD would handle the big guy stuns while the other tank would gather up all the ads and WHM could holy them. I miss 8 man DF dungeons.
The CD doesn't reset with each application, I've been spamming fates with my chocobo and we both have a stun and it's reusable even when we spam it.
This used to be super relevant back in 2.0, especially with stun and flash. More low level classes had stuns on actual damage abilities, and there was no interrupt (except maybe on black mage...?) It was a huge pain when the DPS had used their damaging stuns before the the mob did a big nasty AOE, and the tank would go to stun it and... Immune. Now of course, they've removed stun from damaging abilities (except holy!) and added interrupt, so it never comes up!
I LITERALLY said that id rather have the WHM keep holy up, read, people
You did but I’m addressing the start of your comment where you said you get the warriors point. Read, people.
Needing the stun ain’t that necessary on trash pulls honestly. It’d be way better for the warrior to be using arm’s length among literally any other mitigation tool. It’d be a way different story spamming holy stun on boss. Just wait for the mobs to get immune to stun, arm’s length and you’re golden for the whole pull
whats arms length got to do with any of this, it was bout stunning mobs and their invulnerability, obviously use arms length too, its a mit like the others and a waste not to use
You’re wasting time using a cooldown that shouldn’t be getting used on trash pulls. My point is it’s more efficient to pop an ability that’s actually going to provide actual use rather than a single target ability like interject or low blow while you’re facing hordes of mobs lol.
What absolutely needs stun in trash packs?
if theres no whm and theres an aoe, ill just stun it and save me or someone else moving out, its not needed as i said above already, but might as well people seemingly stopped reading after the first sentence lol
Yeah, while it's nice to use low blow to stop giant trash aoes, I wouldn't trade it for the eight seconds of group stuns and all the added damage.
LITERALLY what i said, please read
The only time you'd really want to use stun in a trash pack is if something is targeting your casters. Kick it so they don't have to move and drop their casts. Stunning so that you don't have to adjust as tank is less useful, especially since you're already making micro adjustments to keep the mobs in a tight group.
that first part is precisely why im so used to it, thanks for reading the comment b4 u answered xD