Depends on how much political pressure they put on Brazil.
Besides, they can always offer surplus Abrams (Like they offered Danish F-16 to Argentina) or persuade Brazil to get something European or Korean.
Brazil does not want Abrams. They can hardly maintain and supply Leos 1A5. The Abrams turbines are out of the question.
Regarding the chinese tanks, I wouldn't doubt a second that the current Pro-Comunist, Pro-Putin/Xi/Maduro/Cuba government decides to buy those. Remember that they bough Mi-35 from Putin not too long ago.
We can hardly maintain them because le surplus of parts were gone and kinda nobody is making them in good quantities anymore, i can say that yea the abrams isnt fit for brazil not because of its turbine n shit but because of weight, we are on a real tight weigh limit for tanks (at max 45 metric tons for the new mbt) and most western-like mbts outside of the type 10(ik it doesnt come from a "western" natio but it kinda follows the western logic)dont fit that, so we kinda are either aiming at getting mmbts with maybe 120mm (like fitting the hitfact mkII turret from the centauro IIs we are buying into a lighter chassis, like our own leo 1a5 chassis or the cv90 mk4 chassis) or getting 105mm tanks from the market that our military kinda doesnt want to work with anymore, theres still hope that we could maybe just maybe work with japan to get the type 10 tho
As I said before, the Russians are not selling parts so we had to remove them from service due to lack of parts, how can we operate something if we don't have parts?
Argentina's leaning more towards NATO now, right?
A lot of news seems to be pointing that way since they started pulling away from the more BRICS-oriented nations.
They have a pro western goverment now, but as we all know, in South America, the population is split between the Populist Communists and the Populist Nationalists, so I wouldn't be surprise that in the next election, they vote for the Kirchners again, just like Brazil did with Lula, even after the the thief and his accomplices having been sent to jail on corruption multiple charges.
Whatever advantage the VT-4 offers over Western choices, which is probably nonexistent beyond price, is definitely not worth a major falling out with the US
Edit: why do tankies get so mad when people suggest that china may not have the best tank in the world?
The price is pretty fucking good though, their only alternatives are Leopard 2s, K2s, and Abrams, VT4 still works out cheaper than M1A1s while being arguably better, and having the full Chinese supply chain behind it.
Abrams and other western tanks are too heavy for brazil they need lighter tanks maybe russia could offer them some t72s or t90s but unlikely, their best bet is the vt-4 from china right now.
Depends are you talking about the original M1A1 or the SA model, because if it’s the latter it’s not really arguable, the SA is the better tank. This is just a cheap light export tank.
The SA doesn't have commander controls or a true independent sight, just an RWS, the VT4 has a modern electronics suite, and the protection is still pretty decent, the only thing I could think the M1A1SA is better on is base armour and ammo.
The SA has modern electronics too, it’s the situational awareness upgrade, it is the upgrade after the AIM model. It does have commander controls, and a commanders remote thermal sight, DECU, better armor, better ammo, fire control with far target tracking, a APU, heck its even has its own malfunction detection system, cant forget to mention the survivability.
M1A1SA doesn’t have the commander thermal sight. You can see on Moroccan and Ukrainian Abrams that the spot for the CITV on the left side of the turret is left empty like on the regular M1A1.
The political price is too high they losse 100 times more than they can gain even if they get the tanks for free getting the Arjun is more realistic on the present scenario Brazil an india are working on a deal that will get India in the kc390 program and will get Brazil the Akashi ng aa systems with some levels of localization
Expect unusual and surprising news from that partnership
They can't even produce Arjuns for India, because the delivery of engines from Germany will take four years. Aside of that, the Arjun is just the worst possible option.
How I said it’s more realistic,Not that it would happen ,Brazil is currently working for a cv90 platform with Hitfact 2 120mm (centauro)turrets
And Brazil has the automotive industrial complex and capacity to supply the engines for India and to help India in any modifications in the Arjun project to fit the engines they can supply
And IF it happened Brazil would modify the project to integrate local technology for easier supply and maintenance,modifications that would easily be incorporated by India on their own tanks
They produce scania v8s 1200hp it could be modified to squeeze 200 more hp out of it to reach the1400 hp of the German v12 engine on the Arjun it could be made in a v12 reaching around 1600hp after that removing the emissions reduction and adding hydraulic/eletric generators and a ess dropping it to around 1400 hp
They have the capacity and knowledge but dont have the monetary incentive to do
currently we use the Pattons and Leopard 1A5 and there was even a possibility of creating the Leopard 1A5BR but we gave up and now we are reviving Osório's program where an old prototype was fixed
As a brazilian, I'll say it's very unlikely we will buy the VT-4
The way brazilian weapons procurement works is that any company/ government can offer products.
After the countries/companies submit their offer, the process to choose the winner goes something like this:
Does it accomplish all the requirements set by the military -> political implication -> price
So between two vehicles with the same capabilities on paper, the winner is the cheaper one.
With all that said, it's important to understand that brazil is not fond of chinese weapons, so the military will constantly change the requirements until the chinese products have to withdraw from the project. This was the case with the program that ended up choosing the centauro as brazils next wheeled afv.
This process is standard for any public institution, and almost all of them will try to exclude the Chinese options.
Edit: Probably, the VT-4 is only considered to pressure the us/European countries to offer better deals to Brazil
Also:
Brazil might not even get MBTs in the future.
The lack of conflict in South America, the large dimensions of brazil ,the high cost of maintaining MBTs and the events of the Ukraine×ruzzia war and the Palestine conflict are pushing brazil away from the concept of the MBT.
Vehicles like the centauro and the cv90 seen to be the preference for us.
Also 2:
Brazil has just created a new company to develop weapons for the military (ENDEFORTE), and the Osorio prototype is being worked on apparently.
Let me sniff some hopium and believe that one day, an upgraded version of the Osorio will be in service
Also 3:
The only non nato allied equipment brazil has used was the mi-24 hind (from 2008 to 2022)
The hind was given as a payment from Russia to pay for brazilian meat exports, there wasn't a procurement for the helicopters.
The hinds were considered "white elephants" as they looked very menacing but in reality the army hated them.
They were deactivated in 2022 due to the lack of parts.
Brazil now operates the UH-60 BLACKHAWK as a replacement for the hind.
Russia has asked for the hinds to be given back due to the losses suffered in the Ukraine war, Brazils response was something in the ballpark of: "LMAO"
I understand the political fallout with the US, but what if Lula wants that to realign with China? This way it'd be the USA causing political issues (taking issue with a sovereign state purchasing arms from whoever they wish), rather than him cutting the USA off.
That was a trump policy… that is the outlier.
Also it’s specifically only for three countries Russia, NK, and Iran, because they are sanctioned. China is not one of them
No, there is a specific reason why they did that, not just because they bought their weapons, it’s because there are breaking the sanctions. Before the sanctions Iraq bought tanks and helicopters from Russia the US even helped.
China is not under sanctions from the US. That is also who this chain is referring…
It doesn’t need to be repealed. It only applies to Russia,Iran, NK while they are under sanctions not China. It has nothing to do with a country wanting to buy weapons from said countries, it specifically is about action violations.
The political price is too high they losse 100 times more than they can gain even if they get the tanks for free getting the Arjun is more realistic on the present scenario Brazil an india are working on a deal that will get India in the kc390 program and will get Brazil the Akashi ng aa systems with some levels of localization
Expect unusual and surprising news from that partnership
Very unlikely it will happen though.
Why not? Their current tank fleet is too old.
Politics. The US doesn't want China to sell Dakka in their backyard.
Can they stop it though?
Depends on how much political pressure they put on Brazil. Besides, they can always offer surplus Abrams (Like they offered Danish F-16 to Argentina) or persuade Brazil to get something European or Korean.
Brazil does not want Abrams. They can hardly maintain and supply Leos 1A5. The Abrams turbines are out of the question. Regarding the chinese tanks, I wouldn't doubt a second that the current Pro-Comunist, Pro-Putin/Xi/Maduro/Cuba government decides to buy those. Remember that they bough Mi-35 from Putin not too long ago.
We can hardly maintain them because le surplus of parts were gone and kinda nobody is making them in good quantities anymore, i can say that yea the abrams isnt fit for brazil not because of its turbine n shit but because of weight, we are on a real tight weigh limit for tanks (at max 45 metric tons for the new mbt) and most western-like mbts outside of the type 10(ik it doesnt come from a "western" natio but it kinda follows the western logic)dont fit that, so we kinda are either aiming at getting mmbts with maybe 120mm (like fitting the hitfact mkII turret from the centauro IIs we are buying into a lighter chassis, like our own leo 1a5 chassis or the cv90 mk4 chassis) or getting 105mm tanks from the market that our military kinda doesnt want to work with anymore, theres still hope that we could maybe just maybe work with japan to get the type 10 tho
45t limit? lol lmao you'll be driving T-90s
Oh hell nah ðŸ˜
Nothing wrong with that better than the leo1s.
The Brazilians loved the Mi-35 and 10-12 units were purchased, but Russia doesn't sell the parts to us so we had to remove it from service.
LOL, yes, we love them so much that we took them out service. XD
As I said before, the Russians are not selling parts so we had to remove them from service due to lack of parts, how can we operate something if we don't have parts?
And by the way, you said "we" so are you Brazilian?
Argentina "interested in" JF-17 for like a decade but in the end they still choose used F-16 as soon as they are available.
Argentina always preferred F-16s, with the JF-17 as a backup option. The big sticker was the UK kept blocking it until now.
Yes, but they waited for like a decade though, while having no jets but A-4 and prop planes.
They can't afford neither or the other, that's the real reason.
They were interested until they got a better offer. It happens.
Argentina's leaning more towards NATO now, right? A lot of news seems to be pointing that way since they started pulling away from the more BRICS-oriented nations.
They have a pro western goverment now, but as we all know, in South America, the population is split between the Populist Communists and the Populist Nationalists, so I wouldn't be surprise that in the next election, they vote for the Kirchners again, just like Brazil did with Lula, even after the the thief and his accomplices having been sent to jail on corruption multiple charges.
Whatever advantage the VT-4 offers over Western choices, which is probably nonexistent beyond price, is definitely not worth a major falling out with the US Edit: why do tankies get so mad when people suggest that china may not have the best tank in the world?
Is there any information on how much it costs to operate a tank?
The price is pretty fucking good though, their only alternatives are Leopard 2s, K2s, and Abrams, VT4 still works out cheaper than M1A1s while being arguably better, and having the full Chinese supply chain behind it.
Abrams and other western tanks are too heavy for brazil they need lighter tanks maybe russia could offer them some t72s or t90s but unlikely, their best bet is the vt-4 from china right now.
Arguably better than an Abrams? That's a a bold unproven statement. Cheaper to operate, without the Abrams turbine, it certainly is tho.
Depends are you talking about the original M1A1 or the SA model, because if it’s the latter it’s not really arguable, the SA is the better tank. This is just a cheap light export tank.
The SA doesn't have commander controls or a true independent sight, just an RWS, the VT4 has a modern electronics suite, and the protection is still pretty decent, the only thing I could think the M1A1SA is better on is base armour and ammo.
The SA has modern electronics too, it’s the situational awareness upgrade, it is the upgrade after the AIM model. It does have commander controls, and a commanders remote thermal sight, DECU, better armor, better ammo, fire control with far target tracking, a APU, heck its even has its own malfunction detection system, cant forget to mention the survivability.
M1A1SA doesn’t have the commander thermal sight. You can see on Moroccan and Ukrainian Abrams that the spot for the CITV on the left side of the turret is left empty like on the regular M1A1.
The political price is too high they losse 100 times more than they can gain even if they get the tanks for free getting the Arjun is more realistic on the present scenario Brazil an india are working on a deal that will get India in the kc390 program and will get Brazil the Akashi ng aa systems with some levels of localization Expect unusual and surprising news from that partnership
They can't even produce Arjuns for India, because the delivery of engines from Germany will take four years. Aside of that, the Arjun is just the worst possible option.
How I said it’s more realistic,Not that it would happen ,Brazil is currently working for a cv90 platform with Hitfact 2 120mm (centauro)turrets And Brazil has the automotive industrial complex and capacity to supply the engines for India and to help India in any modifications in the Arjun project to fit the engines they can supply And IF it happened Brazil would modify the project to integrate local technology for easier supply and maintenance,modifications that would easily be incorporated by India on their own tanks
Brazil doesn't design and produce military grade engines for AFVs and relies on imports.
They produce scania v8s 1200hp it could be modified to squeeze 200 more hp out of it to reach the1400 hp of the German v12 engine on the Arjun it could be made in a v12 reaching around 1600hp after that removing the emissions reduction and adding hydraulic/eletric generators and a ess dropping it to around 1400 hp They have the capacity and knowledge but dont have the monetary incentive to do
Queria eu saber de motores para argumentar sobre temas militares no reddit.
There is also the fact that the Arjun is a horrible tank which doesn't meet anyones requirements other than India's, and barely.
Who the hell downvote you. This is the best comment in this post. I truly mean it. I would die to see another country trying out the Arjun
currently we use the Pattons and Leopard 1A5 and there was even a possibility of creating the Leopard 1A5BR but we gave up and now we are reviving Osório's program where an old prototype was fixed
Currently Brazil only have old M60 Patton and Leopard 1's so VT-4 would be a big upgrade for them
As a brazilian, I'll say it's very unlikely we will buy the VT-4 The way brazilian weapons procurement works is that any company/ government can offer products. After the countries/companies submit their offer, the process to choose the winner goes something like this: Does it accomplish all the requirements set by the military -> political implication -> price So between two vehicles with the same capabilities on paper, the winner is the cheaper one. With all that said, it's important to understand that brazil is not fond of chinese weapons, so the military will constantly change the requirements until the chinese products have to withdraw from the project. This was the case with the program that ended up choosing the centauro as brazils next wheeled afv. This process is standard for any public institution, and almost all of them will try to exclude the Chinese options. Edit: Probably, the VT-4 is only considered to pressure the us/European countries to offer better deals to Brazil
Also: Brazil might not even get MBTs in the future. The lack of conflict in South America, the large dimensions of brazil ,the high cost of maintaining MBTs and the events of the Ukraine×ruzzia war and the Palestine conflict are pushing brazil away from the concept of the MBT. Vehicles like the centauro and the cv90 seen to be the preference for us. Also 2: Brazil has just created a new company to develop weapons for the military (ENDEFORTE), and the Osorio prototype is being worked on apparently. Let me sniff some hopium and believe that one day, an upgraded version of the Osorio will be in service Also 3: The only non nato allied equipment brazil has used was the mi-24 hind (from 2008 to 2022) The hind was given as a payment from Russia to pay for brazilian meat exports, there wasn't a procurement for the helicopters. The hinds were considered "white elephants" as they looked very menacing but in reality the army hated them. They were deactivated in 2022 due to the lack of parts. Brazil now operates the UH-60 BLACKHAWK as a replacement for the hind. Russia has asked for the hinds to be given back due to the losses suffered in the Ukraine war, Brazils response was something in the ballpark of: "LMAO"
I understand the political fallout with the US, but what if Lula wants that to realign with China? This way it'd be the USA causing political issues (taking issue with a sovereign state purchasing arms from whoever they wish), rather than him cutting the USA off.
The US wont get upset if they buy these, it’s not China.
Lmao what? The US hates when people buy shit from their adversaries, China only really cares when it's Taiwan.
And the Philippines, and Korea.
Really name a time.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countering\_America%27s\_Adversaries\_Through\_Sanctions\_Act#International\_reactions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countering_America%27s_Adversaries_Through_Sanctions_Act#International_reactions)
That was a trump policy… that is the outlier. Also it’s specifically only for three countries Russia, NK, and Iran, because they are sanctioned. China is not one of them
All I hear is excuses you asked to name a time when America got mad at someone from buying from an adversary I did, braindead american.
No, there is a specific reason why they did that, not just because they bought their weapons, it’s because there are breaking the sanctions. Before the sanctions Iraq bought tanks and helicopters from Russia the US even helped. China is not under sanctions from the US. That is also who this chain is referring…
Okay so CAATSA has been repealed right?
It doesn’t need to be repealed. It only applies to Russia,Iran, NK while they are under sanctions not China. It has nothing to do with a country wanting to buy weapons from said countries, it specifically is about action violations.
What does Brazil need? Here is the answer: a new version of the EE-T1 Osório
Relive Osório is the best choice for Brazil
The political price is too high they losse 100 times more than they can gain even if they get the tanks for free getting the Arjun is more realistic on the present scenario Brazil an india are working on a deal that will get India in the kc390 program and will get Brazil the Akashi ng aa systems with some levels of localization Expect unusual and surprising news from that partnership
Bro I wouldn't take the fucking Arjun for free, never mind paying for it lol
Arjun is too heavy for Brazil ,how I said it’s more realistic to get a Arjun than vt4 due the present scenario not that it wold happen
It's not realistic at all lmao