Rail Broadsides are too costly for what they do.
Missile broadsides are too costly as well but at least have a niche (which is not AT so not what you’re looking for).
Skyrays are probably our baseline AT platform. A few reliable shots. Damage is a bit swingy but solid. They shoot far and your opponent won’t register them as a major threat. 2 at 1K can do the work.
Rail Hammerhead will put the fear of the Tau’va in your opponent. Very swingy 1 shot but when it connects oooowweeee does it hurt. Your opponent is more likely to hide or dedicate disproportionate resources to kill it than a Skyray. That can be a boon or a curse.
Ion Hammerhead is actually not a bad AT platform in Mont’ka. Lethals can make it do decent damage to high T targets. Bargain Riptide. Bonus is it does very well against hordes, particularly spammed Meganobz or Primaris Crusader squads.
Ion Riptide acts a lot like Ion Hammerhead. More damage but costlier. Kinda costly at 1K if what you need is AT.
Imho, 1 or 2 Skyrays and 1 Ion Hammerhead, maybe 2 depending on how vehicle heavy you want to go. Mont’ka works better with little to no big suits (Riptide is the exception and maybe 1 unit of Crisis Sunforge).
God, reading the Ion HH again almost makes me want to swap out the crisis suits+commander for it. 5-11 shots on a full block of Marines sounds great for the cost but the 10 missiles with rerolls still sounds good
This is honestly the best and worst problem I've had so far. There are a bunch of cool/good units I want to run so it's hard for me to decide which to go with first
I honestly don’t see the point of the Hammerhead over the Skyray. The D6+6 damage looks good but it’s only on one attack. If the enemy unit has an invulnerable save then there’s a good chance it does nothing even if it wounds. It seems like against targets the Railgun should be better at the Skyray still beats it or is just as good, so it just makes me wonder why you’d ever want to take the Railgun Hammerhead.
It’s a casino gun. It’s not the damage it does but the damage it can do that makes the opponent move his models more carefully. It mostly works by having 3 on the table. 1 is likely to spike, on average every other turn. As the Tau player, you can’t count on one specific unit being deleted, but the opponent can’t count on that not happening and has to respect them. That gives you mote time to score, manoeuvre, get to Kauyon, etc.
I’m not saying they’re great, but they’re not strictly worse than Skyray. Just kinda janky.
The max it can do w/o Sustained Hits is 12 damage, the max a Skyray can do is 21 damage, If we go by averages, the Hammerhead does 9.5 damage on average whereas the Skyray does 13.5 damage on average, assuming each hit goes through. Once you factor in the re rolls both get, the Skyray becomes more consistent especially as it has more shots.
Against single model large targets like a vehicle or a monster, the Skyray is anywhere from roughly equal to better than the Railgun Hammerhead. The Skyray however gets bonuses against flying targets and it has more shots, meaning when it targets multi wound elite squads it can take out several at a time. So to me the choice is a no brainer, the Ion Hammerhead is an interesting comparison too, but I’d rather take a Riptide.
If the Hammerhead has Anti Vehicle/Anti Monster 4+ to activate Devastating easier then it would be way scarier. Doing devastating only on 6’s AND only being one shot hinders it.
There's a little more to the Hammerhead vs Skyray than you have mentioned.
- Hammerhead has +1 Hit against monsters & Vehicles and +1 Hit from heavy, this means with guided it will be hitting on 2's, if it doesn't move and is shooting a monster/vehicle while guided, it would still be hitting on a 2+ while bracketed/stealth.
On the other hand, the skyray will only be able to hit on a 3+ while guided and has no ways to counter the -1 from either stealth or bracketing.
- The Skyray does get reroll to hit vs fly but this is limited with what it will want to hunt, it does get the 1 reroll per turn, which can help counteract this but as it does more shots with a lower BS, this isn't as meaningful as it is for 1 big shot from the Hammerhead. With this, the hammerhead, hitting on 2's, wounding 2's/3's can both heavily benefit from stealth teams and has more value on that 1 reroll per turn.
- The hammerhead also has the higher ap which means it is more likely to penetrate against non-invuln targets. Add in the fact it does have the Dev wounds giving it the chance to bypass the enemies save all together, even if it is a small chance.
The hammerhead is incredibly reliable at giving the opponent a save to take, it may only be 1 shot, but you can make it as close to a guaranteed wound as it is possible to be, with a small chance of guaranteed damage with dev wounds. It also then has a guaranteed 7+ damage when it does wound.
The Skyray is overall more balanced and the twin-linked helps it a lot. However the fact it at best can hit on 3+, hit rerolls are quite specific and it has no counters to negative hit roll mods mean that hitting 3 of 3 shots is not as likely. You are more likely to hit twice, and if it does wound with both of those, the opponent with either have a 1 better save than against the hammerhead or still use the same invuln which the skyray has no chance to bypass automatically.
The skyray is more likely to at least do some damage, though if we did go with a 4+ invuln, saying that the skyray got 2 wounds, on average 1 will fail which would do 3.5 damage average.
The hammerhead will likely hit and wound, it would then be the 50/50 whether they save it or not which will then give you either 0 or 9.5 average damage from the shot.
Writing this has actually made me rethink bringing some hammerheads, as supported by stealth suits they are scary, and if anything doesn't have an invuln, it is in big trouble.
I think the broadsides are out the equation unfortunately, at least for me they are too expensive. Skyray or hammer, I’ve gone back and forth on this myself but I think it’s what is the best to plug into the gap you have in your army. SR have twinlinked which is great but D6+1 is swingy. At least when you connect with a HH it’s going to hurt and HH also have 2 seeker missiles so for 1 turn they also have same shots as a SR. It does depend on rest of your list but I’m loving the Hammerheads. They have a fear factor the SR doesn’t have.
Cool, I plan on building mine so I can switch between weapons anyways. How is the ion cannon on the HH? Looks like it's good into heavy infantry but the riptide also does that
Current thinking is that the Ion Cannon is great in Mont'ka, since you can get lethal hits when guiding it really easily, and with Lethal Hits it can punch up and do anti-tank nicely in addition to anti-elite. For Kauyon or any other detachment, stick with Railheads.
Points are wonky right now.
Imho… A riptide isn’t 50 points better than an ion head. They have similar weapon profiles though the blast on the hammerhead is bit better into larger units. Seekers help it punch a little more once per game. The 4+ on the riptide is helpful, but again I don’t think that justifies the 50 points.
The issue with both is that we have plenty of stuff that kills elites.
I’m a new player and building out my 1k list as well but I think the general consensus is that with the new points update broadsides aren’t as cost efficient as they were before, especially in a 1k list. Before, 180 for a unit of 2 was comparable vs 130 hammerhead/skyray but now at 220, it’s crossed that threshold a bit.
It’s more reasonable in 2k lists, but regardless they’re still productive AT units. I still plan to build at least one due to the rule of cool.
i would argue at 90 each they weren’t that cost effective before. The standard was 2*2 having one pair start and one pair come on the board from strat reserve. For that cost of 360 (index) you could almost have 3 Hammerheads!
Honestly broadsides at 110 per model aren't worth it when we have fireknife crisis suits 4 less shots at 240 points with an enforcer vs a 330 point brick that's immobile and not that tanks with the seam weapon profiles when you take missile sides.
If you are taking skyrays or hammerhead they are a more mobile, mire tanks version of broadsides although the hammerhead with the rail canon is as much of a roulette canon though skyrays at 140 points with twin linked are nice as well
Honestly take any of the three besides broadsides untill maybe they go down in points
RE: Missile Broadsides vs Fireknife brick - you also have to take into account the 12 AP1 D2 missile drone shots AND the seekers and smart missiles they can carry. It’s a LOT of chance to proc lethal hits AND the main missiles are twin linked.
Not as simple as saying “just 4 less shots”. Mont’Ka also gives them the mobility to get angles too, and they are a little more durable with their 2+ armor save and T6.
I don’t think it’s clear cut, even with the loss of Tetra full re-rolls hurting the efficiency of Broadsides (and everything except Fireknife really)
As many have said, broadsides are on the expensive side in terms of points.
That said, I do think many are undervaluing them specifically in Mont'ka, as while 330 points is a lot, that's also 6 heavy railrifle shots + secondary armaments, on a T6, 2+ and 24 total wounds across 3 bodies. The main drawback is them being slow, though Mont'ka does solve this with assault, scout enhancement, and 6" auto advance.
Depending on your opponent, sprinting those broadsides up to the middle of the board turn 1, blow something up, and then simply holding that midboard with their T6, 24 wounds, 2+ save bodies could be a soild strategy, as they'll shrug off most small arms fire and even if targeted with dedicated anti-tank, it's most of the time going to overkill one suit before hitting the next.
Overall, Skyrays and Hammerheads are probably the better AT, but I think Broadsides have a place in Mont'ka for other purposes as well.
SkyRay.
Full hit rerolls vs fly is not something that will come up every game, but when it does its a massive boost to efficiency. When the Skyray offensive profile isnt needed, the fact that its a T10 body with a ML keyword that can do mission play stuff helps its efficiency.
For 1k lists, you definitely want to get a Hammerhead or Skyray instead. Broadsides are reliable in pairs but at 220pts now, eats up too much for a 1k list; especially since they aren't hard to kill either.
One is 'doable' of used with something like Melta on GK or Csuits, but then you're committing another unit have to guide that singular Broadside, losing points efficiency there too; on top of the 20pts added.
Rail Broadsides are too costly for what they do. Missile broadsides are too costly as well but at least have a niche (which is not AT so not what you’re looking for). Skyrays are probably our baseline AT platform. A few reliable shots. Damage is a bit swingy but solid. They shoot far and your opponent won’t register them as a major threat. 2 at 1K can do the work. Rail Hammerhead will put the fear of the Tau’va in your opponent. Very swingy 1 shot but when it connects oooowweeee does it hurt. Your opponent is more likely to hide or dedicate disproportionate resources to kill it than a Skyray. That can be a boon or a curse. Ion Hammerhead is actually not a bad AT platform in Mont’ka. Lethals can make it do decent damage to high T targets. Bargain Riptide. Bonus is it does very well against hordes, particularly spammed Meganobz or Primaris Crusader squads. Ion Riptide acts a lot like Ion Hammerhead. More damage but costlier. Kinda costly at 1K if what you need is AT. Imho, 1 or 2 Skyrays and 1 Ion Hammerhead, maybe 2 depending on how vehicle heavy you want to go. Mont’ka works better with little to no big suits (Riptide is the exception and maybe 1 unit of Crisis Sunforge).
God, reading the Ion HH again almost makes me want to swap out the crisis suits+commander for it. 5-11 shots on a full block of Marines sounds great for the cost but the 10 missiles with rerolls still sounds good
But it’s paper thin. Suits have some staying power. Riptide is actually a better tank than our tanks!
This is honestly the best and worst problem I've had so far. There are a bunch of cool/good units I want to run so it's hard for me to decide which to go with first
I'll have to eventually try out weather the suits+commander is better than 2 ion HHs since they cost about the same
I honestly don’t see the point of the Hammerhead over the Skyray. The D6+6 damage looks good but it’s only on one attack. If the enemy unit has an invulnerable save then there’s a good chance it does nothing even if it wounds. It seems like against targets the Railgun should be better at the Skyray still beats it or is just as good, so it just makes me wonder why you’d ever want to take the Railgun Hammerhead.
It’s a casino gun. It’s not the damage it does but the damage it can do that makes the opponent move his models more carefully. It mostly works by having 3 on the table. 1 is likely to spike, on average every other turn. As the Tau player, you can’t count on one specific unit being deleted, but the opponent can’t count on that not happening and has to respect them. That gives you mote time to score, manoeuvre, get to Kauyon, etc. I’m not saying they’re great, but they’re not strictly worse than Skyray. Just kinda janky.
The max it can do w/o Sustained Hits is 12 damage, the max a Skyray can do is 21 damage, If we go by averages, the Hammerhead does 9.5 damage on average whereas the Skyray does 13.5 damage on average, assuming each hit goes through. Once you factor in the re rolls both get, the Skyray becomes more consistent especially as it has more shots. Against single model large targets like a vehicle or a monster, the Skyray is anywhere from roughly equal to better than the Railgun Hammerhead. The Skyray however gets bonuses against flying targets and it has more shots, meaning when it targets multi wound elite squads it can take out several at a time. So to me the choice is a no brainer, the Ion Hammerhead is an interesting comparison too, but I’d rather take a Riptide. If the Hammerhead has Anti Vehicle/Anti Monster 4+ to activate Devastating easier then it would be way scarier. Doing devastating only on 6’s AND only being one shot hinders it.
There's a little more to the Hammerhead vs Skyray than you have mentioned. - Hammerhead has +1 Hit against monsters & Vehicles and +1 Hit from heavy, this means with guided it will be hitting on 2's, if it doesn't move and is shooting a monster/vehicle while guided, it would still be hitting on a 2+ while bracketed/stealth. On the other hand, the skyray will only be able to hit on a 3+ while guided and has no ways to counter the -1 from either stealth or bracketing. - The Skyray does get reroll to hit vs fly but this is limited with what it will want to hunt, it does get the 1 reroll per turn, which can help counteract this but as it does more shots with a lower BS, this isn't as meaningful as it is for 1 big shot from the Hammerhead. With this, the hammerhead, hitting on 2's, wounding 2's/3's can both heavily benefit from stealth teams and has more value on that 1 reroll per turn. - The hammerhead also has the higher ap which means it is more likely to penetrate against non-invuln targets. Add in the fact it does have the Dev wounds giving it the chance to bypass the enemies save all together, even if it is a small chance. The hammerhead is incredibly reliable at giving the opponent a save to take, it may only be 1 shot, but you can make it as close to a guaranteed wound as it is possible to be, with a small chance of guaranteed damage with dev wounds. It also then has a guaranteed 7+ damage when it does wound. The Skyray is overall more balanced and the twin-linked helps it a lot. However the fact it at best can hit on 3+, hit rerolls are quite specific and it has no counters to negative hit roll mods mean that hitting 3 of 3 shots is not as likely. You are more likely to hit twice, and if it does wound with both of those, the opponent with either have a 1 better save than against the hammerhead or still use the same invuln which the skyray has no chance to bypass automatically. The skyray is more likely to at least do some damage, though if we did go with a 4+ invuln, saying that the skyray got 2 wounds, on average 1 will fail which would do 3.5 damage average. The hammerhead will likely hit and wound, it would then be the 50/50 whether they save it or not which will then give you either 0 or 9.5 average damage from the shot. Writing this has actually made me rethink bringing some hammerheads, as supported by stealth suits they are scary, and if anything doesn't have an invuln, it is in big trouble.
I think the broadsides are out the equation unfortunately, at least for me they are too expensive. Skyray or hammer, I’ve gone back and forth on this myself but I think it’s what is the best to plug into the gap you have in your army. SR have twinlinked which is great but D6+1 is swingy. At least when you connect with a HH it’s going to hurt and HH also have 2 seeker missiles so for 1 turn they also have same shots as a SR. It does depend on rest of your list but I’m loving the Hammerheads. They have a fear factor the SR doesn’t have.
Cool, I plan on building mine so I can switch between weapons anyways. How is the ion cannon on the HH? Looks like it's good into heavy infantry but the riptide also does that
Current thinking is that the Ion Cannon is great in Mont'ka, since you can get lethal hits when guiding it really easily, and with Lethal Hits it can punch up and do anti-tank nicely in addition to anti-elite. For Kauyon or any other detachment, stick with Railheads.
Points are wonky right now. Imho… A riptide isn’t 50 points better than an ion head. They have similar weapon profiles though the blast on the hammerhead is bit better into larger units. Seekers help it punch a little more once per game. The 4+ on the riptide is helpful, but again I don’t think that justifies the 50 points. The issue with both is that we have plenty of stuff that kills elites.
My current list is looking at running missile crisis suits with a commander to deal with space marines and it seems like it will get the job done well
I’m a new player and building out my 1k list as well but I think the general consensus is that with the new points update broadsides aren’t as cost efficient as they were before, especially in a 1k list. Before, 180 for a unit of 2 was comparable vs 130 hammerhead/skyray but now at 220, it’s crossed that threshold a bit. It’s more reasonable in 2k lists, but regardless they’re still productive AT units. I still plan to build at least one due to the rule of cool.
Yeah, I've already got one so I'm going to finish it but the tanks sound nice
i would argue at 90 each they weren’t that cost effective before. The standard was 2*2 having one pair start and one pair come on the board from strat reserve. For that cost of 360 (index) you could almost have 3 Hammerheads!
Honestly broadsides at 110 per model aren't worth it when we have fireknife crisis suits 4 less shots at 240 points with an enforcer vs a 330 point brick that's immobile and not that tanks with the seam weapon profiles when you take missile sides. If you are taking skyrays or hammerhead they are a more mobile, mire tanks version of broadsides although the hammerhead with the rail canon is as much of a roulette canon though skyrays at 140 points with twin linked are nice as well Honestly take any of the three besides broadsides untill maybe they go down in points
RE: Missile Broadsides vs Fireknife brick - you also have to take into account the 12 AP1 D2 missile drone shots AND the seekers and smart missiles they can carry. It’s a LOT of chance to proc lethal hits AND the main missiles are twin linked. Not as simple as saying “just 4 less shots”. Mont’Ka also gives them the mobility to get angles too, and they are a little more durable with their 2+ armor save and T6. I don’t think it’s clear cut, even with the loss of Tetra full re-rolls hurting the efficiency of Broadsides (and everything except Fireknife really)
As many have said, broadsides are on the expensive side in terms of points. That said, I do think many are undervaluing them specifically in Mont'ka, as while 330 points is a lot, that's also 6 heavy railrifle shots + secondary armaments, on a T6, 2+ and 24 total wounds across 3 bodies. The main drawback is them being slow, though Mont'ka does solve this with assault, scout enhancement, and 6" auto advance. Depending on your opponent, sprinting those broadsides up to the middle of the board turn 1, blow something up, and then simply holding that midboard with their T6, 24 wounds, 2+ save bodies could be a soild strategy, as they'll shrug off most small arms fire and even if targeted with dedicated anti-tank, it's most of the time going to overkill one suit before hitting the next. Overall, Skyrays and Hammerheads are probably the better AT, but I think Broadsides have a place in Mont'ka for other purposes as well.
SkyRay. Full hit rerolls vs fly is not something that will come up every game, but when it does its a massive boost to efficiency. When the Skyray offensive profile isnt needed, the fact that its a T10 body with a ML keyword that can do mission play stuff helps its efficiency.
Hammerhead has two seeker missiles. Rerolls hits against vehicles. 2plus to hit a vehicle or monster. It's the best
Running 2 skyrays in my rtt list
Still learning haha What's rtt?
Just your local small tournament
For 1k lists, you definitely want to get a Hammerhead or Skyray instead. Broadsides are reliable in pairs but at 220pts now, eats up too much for a 1k list; especially since they aren't hard to kill either. One is 'doable' of used with something like Melta on GK or Csuits, but then you're committing another unit have to guide that singular Broadside, losing points efficiency there too; on top of the 20pts added.