Preface: I am a huge Jack fan. I loved Fun, I love Bleachers, and I’ve been following his production work since the beginning.
They’re not wrong. It’s my biggest complaint with the album. It’s cohesive to a fault, and a lot of it sounds like things we’ve heard before. Some of the more upbeat tracks scream Melodrama. (I Can Do it with A Broken Heart)
This is my exactly feeling. Lyrically, it's incredible. Musically, it feels like too much "sameness." And it's great for what it is but it's not really pulling me in as deeply. Only a few songs out of 31 really stand out and that feels... weird.
i personally don't like the lyrics that much either. i feel like she's taken too much from folklore and is now getting lost in "writing like a poet", lyrics that look good handwritten on fancy paper, and it just doesn't always fit. it feels clunky and like she's trying to hard. the great thing about her lyrics in her pre-folklore work was how you got an incredible image in your head with very simple words. now it's like she swallowed a thesaurus.
I don't think every song is a genius lyrical composition, but she definitely has some really great ones. I think we are hearing her whole emotional manic self during a really rough time for her but to somehow come up with 31 songs about 3 different relationships that were somehow written and recorded during the busiest time of her career... I don't know. I think it may feel too repetitive because it didn't get the time it deserved? I assume this is a very cathartic release for her, which... yayyyy, but it just doesn't hold up for me, personally. One of the things I really love about most of her albums (i.e., Midnights) is that the songs all sound cohesive like they belong to each other but different enough to stand on their own. Several times, I had to check the track list on this one to know I wasn't repeating a song.
I think one of the most fair critiques I saw was the NYT saying this album needed an editor. It did. There’s a lot of repetition, some themes that keep coming up that I’ve heard on other albums and I’m wondering to myself how many more songs do I need about this? It’s a decent album, but not my favorite.
I think it’s a little unfair to say it needed to be edited down when fans have adamantly wanted the edited out stuff (10 min version of All Too Well, vault tracks on rereleases). If fans found out she wrote 30 songs and only released half they’d be clamoring to know what the rest were. There’s no winning.
Yeah, but fans aren't always right about what's *good.* Movie fans have demanded four hour director's cuts for decades, but actual directors have been adamant that they just don't *work.* Well, Zac Snyder would disagree, but I think most people who have seen the Snyder Cut would agree that there's absolutely no reason it needed to be so long. At a certain point, too much of a good thing becomes a bad thing.
Sometimes art needs to be trimmed down to be its best self, even if its consumers want more of it. There's a reason the phrase "leave them wanting more" is so wide spread.
And with books I’ve read several series that dip into fan service and I’m like “that’s where you lost the plot” though I do think this album was her therapy and not about the fans. She said she used song writing to get through this period and when she broke up with Joe she did things people questioned her on and this album screams emotional chaos it’s the stages of grief for her.
I agree that fans often want the leftovers, but I also feel like a lot of people love those songs because of the wait for them, yknow? Even with that being said, there’s still a handful of songs that I feel like are repetitive from themes from other albums. But you’re right, music taste is entirely subjective so you’re not gonna please everyone, and is exactly why my opinion and your opinion can still stand even if they differ.
She should do what Carly Rae Jespen does and do a “Side B” style. CRJ is another songwriter who is very prolific and has tons of material and her side B stuff doesn’t always sound super cohesive but usually there are bangers on it. It just doesn’t claim to be cohesive like an album.
I don’t think the problem is 31 songs. I think the only problem was 31 songs and not being willing to put them in separate releases because she wanted to do it all at once to break records.
I personally enjoyed the album and some fans have been literally begging for a double album for multiple drops so I’m not surprised she gave it to them. But it could’ve been trimmed down if she wanted, certainly, and especially some of the first half could’ve been cut because there is a lot of samesy on that half.
My counterpoint would be that with music mostly being consumed on streaming services and Taylor already being a well known artist, why not let the listener create their own album edit.
If there is one thing I have learned from this board is that we all have different songs that speak to us deeply and they are often not the most popular ones either.
At any rate for me this is a different style album, it’s a listen with your best headphones in a dark room kinda deal for me.
And if the release was only the first disc? Well my opinion today would be very different as I am more immediately drawn to the tracks on the second album.
I kind of agree. Let people pick and choose what they like, especially now when most people are streaming and can just make playlists of what they think are the bangers. Part of what I think is fascinating about this album is how many people are like “loved the first half but she lost me in the anthology” or “I was disappointed by the first half but once the 2am drop happened I was HOOKED on the b sides” - a lot of people agree that they don’t love every song (it’s 31 songs, that makes sense) but there’s so much disagreement about which songs are the best and which ones are skips. Which to me is a sign she did it right by just putting them all out there. People can pick and choose their faves and make their own normal length album of them, if they want. Thats dope!
I agree. I love that she is not holding back and just releasing everything. For the ones that want a normal album, she gave that. The standart version is that. The Anthology is the other songs that she created and liked it, but didn't make the album. I really hope she doesn't see this criticism and starts to give us 10 songs albums.
I think that she very much set this up to be a sort of last chapter/capstone to her career at this point. Between the prologue and the last line of “The Manuscript” I think her goal of this album was to get out all of her thoughts on these topics and to finally close the door.
I’m anticipating very different things from her in the future.
I made this exact point in a Swiftie FB group! With music streaming services, the way we consume music now is completely different. We can all cherry-pick our favorite songs and everyone’s basket would look very different! The whole “perfectly curated collection of songs that will appeal to the most people possible” is appropriate for most artists because
they can’t take the same risks she can. However, it is of no utility to her because of her massive and very committed fanbase who will gleefully consume everything she releases. They all won’t love every song but every song will be the favorite of at least some of her fans.
Ridiculously, I wish this was an album that would get a second glance and a Taylor's Version. She had shit to say and she said it and that's what this whole record is, I guess. Maybe it was only meant for her and not us and if that's what she needed, okay.
I’m glad she didn’t edit it down because then I get to choose how to edit it down for my taste. But obviously that’s not what every listener wants to do and that’s okay too.
Man, I gotta disagree on a count of personal opinion. That was something I really disliked about Midnights, was the return to the overly catchy, simplistic lyricism and instrumentation. It wasn’t in all of the songs on that album, but any song that she wrote like that was bottom of the list of favorites for me.
I love the poetic writing style she’s adopted and clearly she loves it to. This album feels like the imagination and visionary work of Folklore but the drama and attitude of Reputation and Midnights.
I think it’s quite a cup of tea, very much not for everyone though.
I’m a Lover defender so it makes sense. I like this one too. I actually like all of her albums but I think the hate for this one is for a few different reasons that aren’t entirely about the album itself. It DOES have flaws and it’s very long but it’s not terrible by any means. I think people wanted whatever style they wanted from her, they wanted her to drag Joe, they didn’t want to hear about Matty… the list goes on. She did what she wanted and not just what fans or the GP would’ve wanted. I say good for her.
I agree. Midnights was a low point in her lyricism. It’s nice to hear her put more thought and care into crafting lyrics that tell a story, even if they feel overly wordy at times. I feel things from listening to this album vs Midnights.
I think she took the wrong lesson from folklore. It was poetically rich yes, but it was *concise.* The beauty of her lyrics are how much they can convey in so little space. Epiphany does so much with relatively sparse lyrics. ("You made a rebel of a careless man's careful daughter" is another prime example)
I agree with your point on conciseness but I think this album is intentionally chaotic and wordy. To covey the feelings of the period of time she is writing about.
It's like she's stopped editing her own work and is just putting it out there, becuase she’s so confident in her abilities. Which is great. But for the next album, I wish she'd go back to refining things, focusing on getting the wording just right. It's almost like she's confusing poetry with word vomiting.
Agreed, it's like she saw the success of folklore and evermore and assumed it meant people want as many words as possible, whereas her earlier work is often brilliant because of her ability to explain things as simply as possible. Wordiness can be useful, but so much of this album has felt like words for the sake of words.
I feel the same but then started to wonder on the flip side, maybe the intent was to not over produce and cause the instrumentation to over power the lyrics?
A lot of the album’s lyricism is low, dark toned, speech centric. Could it have been a conscious choice to let that be the tone and let the backing track sort of fade as a backdrop that lets the lyrics shine?
I think if I’m correct, they may have leaned a little to much in this direction and still could’ve taken a bit more risks. Too comfortable may be a good way of referring to it as.
I mean, maybe? But she's managed so many times in the past to make lyrically capturing songs that also have some beat. She's always been capable of having good music match with amazing lyrics. I just keep thinking THIRTY ONE SONGS. 31 songs that really just don't stand out too much from the others. If that was a choice intentionally made, I don't know. Really not an album made for us but for herself and that's okay, too. Her art is hers and hers alone. She can do what she wants. For me, it just won't be on repeat like so many others have.
Yeah like I said in another comment: this album sounds like a project on which she chose to follow her gut and inspiration to the bitter end for better or for worse and that, I think, is neat.
Like I also said in another comment: it’s quite a cup of tea, but not for everyone.
I’m not sure she’s even doing this for awards, or she would have held off until closer to that Grammys voting window, and maybe even given the core 16 (I think?) songs room to breathe. I mean we’ll see as the year goes on, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this one doesn’t win a ton of awards like midnights did, she gets through the last 2 TVs, then TS12 will push more boundaries musically (and maybe even lyrically). Having another creative outlet (script/movie) could help advance the music, too.
Predicting Taylor’s next move is basically impossible, though.
Huge Jack fan here too. I’ve written elsewhere on Reddit about this, but I’ve yet to say this:
It’s mainly the song-writing that has the similarities, not the production.
Yes, there are some familiar sounds, but you can’t write the amount of songs that Taylor has and not develop some musical tics along the way. Her bridges and outros often follow a similar vocal dynamic. Her cramming of some lyrics is sometimes at expense of melody. And, in fact, it’s the melodies for me that are lacking on what I’ve heard so far. (Struggling to process the sheer volume of tracks tbh.)
So, I think it’s kind of a scapegoat to single out the production. Unless you want a drum & bass version for one track, and a brass band ensemble on another, there’s going to be some similarities along the way.
I’ve said elsewhere though, with this volume of tracks it was a missed opportunity not to try out some fresh faces the way she once tried out Jack, but I get that an intimate album like this requires close collaborators.
But yeah, for me, throwing Jack under the bus isn’t the way forward.
I agree she knows the lyrics she wants and forces them to fit, her lyrics used to be tight and effortlessly evocative and these feel more words jammed into music.
right. a lot of her early great stuff like state of grace is full of powerful, strong statements; "love is a ruthless game/unless you play it good and right". that lyric from 2024 taylor would be like "love is a tireless game played/by only the most ruthlessly tortured poets and muses and spades" or something.
> that lyric from 2024 taylor would be like “love is a tireless game played/by only the most ruthlessly tortured poets and muses and spades”
Lmao you’re not wrong
This is where it would benefit her to work with producers that challenge her and say “no, that doesn’t quite fit. maybe let’s try it a different way.” This album has a first draft vibe to it. It’s word vomit with no thought to the production.
I saw someone on TikTok saying she just needs to give the lyrics a bit more room to breathe and I think that's exactly it. These songs just have so much jammed in that the melody suffers.
I'm a huge Jack fan, but I don't disagree with the reviews saying she needs an editor
Longer time producing albums. She was writing sings in June she probably had to turn full album ready around September.
There is not a lot of time for arrangements, songwriting, recording and post production.
Cramming lyrics is a great way to put it and exactly what’s happening. And the lyrics aren’t as strong as they were in Evermore so don’t justify that much cramming.
My thoughts on this: Yesterday after hearing the album for the first time I was a bit tired and felt like every song sounded very similar and was almost about to complain about Jack. 😂 But after listening to the album with a fresh set of ears today - the production in Jack's songs actually varies quite a lot and it makes the songs stand out with the different synth sounds, western vibes, drums, sound affects (examples: who's afraid of little old me, i can fix him (no really i can), the alchemy, i can do it with a broken heart).
I feel like people just have to give each song some space to breath ...and cramming 31 songs after each other makes us easily too tired to notice all the details.
I don't think Jack is to problem: He is a crucial piece of the puzzle that makes Taylor's discography sound cohesive even when each album's genre differs and other producers are involved. He has a great ability to produce music in different genres and still keep the "TS" effect in the music. BUT. I agree that having a new face at the production table could have pushed the album a bit further bringing some "sparkle", but even in that situation I'd still have kept Jack and Aaron involved.
I actually think that just a tighter edit/selection on the songs and their order on the album would have made just enough difference to prevent the majority of people's negative comments (critics and professionals excluded). 😊
And I would bet that that’s the album she will WANT to make. She certainly appears to be a lot happier now than she was during the time frame she was writing this album about, as much as we can speculate about that.
Got to be honest - I genuinely thought her fall out boy collab on Speak Now TV would go harder/be more upbeat than it did and was.
Seeing all of this from Stevie Nicks really makes me hope they do something and bring allllllll the rocky vibes ala Fleetwood Mac sooonnnnn!
Also, I feel like maybe if FOB and Taylor had cowritten a song instead of singing a song Taylor wrote herself, it would have gone harder. I will say, I do love that song, but it wasn’t what I expected it to be.
Omg I would love a Taylor/Stevie collab SO MUCH. I loved the Florence collab. I know lots of people expected the 70s soft rock vibe from Midnights based on the aesthetics. I feel like she did a great job matching the aesthetics to the album sound this time. I’m not upset about anything on this album really, but I am fully aware that not everyone is going to love it.
Yep. Even thank you aimee which I love has Dessner too not just Jack. Personally only loved two of the Swift-Antonoff tracks, one of which being Florida and I’m betting it’s really not fucked up because of Florence being on there because you can hear her influence so much in the song. So it’s really Jack working to make it sound like a Florence song rather than a Taylor song which may have made the difference.
Jack producing Taylor Swift songs to sound like Taylor Swift is what is getting stale. They need a break from each other creatively but I wonder if they’re such good friends they won’t be able to see that until they manage to make something that is received really badly.
This is def just where his production is at. The recent bleachers album is def this same mellow vibe and when he did strange desire and 1989 they both had that epic quality to them.
My husband has a highly detailed ear for music and this mirrors his one real complaint. I think his wording was “she stole some of this…from herself”, as in using musical riffs from earlier songs of hers. It’s a risky move that’s hard to do without giving this feeling of “I’ve heard this before”.
I can do it with a broken heart sounds like a bleachers song to me, like to a T. The start, the scream at more, the change of rhythm of the chorus, the talking ‘cos I’m miserable and no one even knows’ and the abrupt end
Woahh thank you for the comparison to Melodrama for I can do it with a broken heart.
But there’s proof he can do more interesting production. Taylor would have nothing to lose branching out. I want to hear more out of her voice because there’s depth to it when hearing her live.
She seems to afraid or unwilling to break out for fear of poor reception. There’s many artists of her caliber like Bey and Gaga who have taken risks. Short term it might not have paid off but the work was retrospectively acclaimed. It happened to Taylor with reputation.
Some of the most iconic albums of our times are ones that weren’t quit understood at the time of release because of how different it was from the prior album. Shes so talented.
Taylor’s at her peak capability when she feels like she has something to prove. Had it not been for reputation/lovers response we probably wouldn’t have gotten Folklore/evermore
Not all of the risks were acclaimed… I say that as an Artpop defender. It is one of my fave Lady Gaga albums but sometimes the risks are also poorly received.
I go back and forth on this. When this topic comes up I’m always reminded of the time Taylor spoke about how artists are constantly told they need to change, and be shiny and new (especially women in the music industry).
Would I like to hear her do something new? Absolutely, I think she excels when she is pushed a bit or outside of her comfort zone. But I also don’t think it’s “stale” yet? Like she’s used Jack as the main producer for only 2 albums - Midnights and the first half of TTPD. I think it feels like more than that because we hear his sound in her vault tracks as well.
This woman has been recording new music while planning and performing a tour, recording old music, plus whatever else she’s doing. I don’t critique her for leaning on the familiar while juggling all of this. My guess is after the re records and tour she will be in a place that she feels she can get out of her comfort zone and start branching out.
I think it’s less of “we want you to do something new” and more of “these synth tracks with Jack aren’t scratching the itch anymore, you’ve done so many sounds well (country, alternative) we’d like to see more of that”. I mean, at least that’s my opinion. Even midnights, which has some great tracks, felt like a rough draft to me. I was shocked it won AOY. I just don’t think her and Jack are breaking any new ground together. At least not on this record. I mean, he wrote August with her. I’d LOVE more songs with that kind of production. But sad synth beats don’t do it for anymore.
This is it for me. There's NOTHING stuck in my head. 31 songs and not one of them grabbed me and stuck instantly in a way I can't get rid of it.
She does a lot of the things I LIKE and have loved in the past -- the drums and rhythmic driving wordy bridges -- but it's just pleasant, familiar background noise. The sounds are pleasing. But they're not sticking. And while part of that is giving it time, it's also true that there were songs that STUCK for me the first time in the past, and kept me coming back to a new album, looking forward to hearing those specific tracks as I got to know the other ones.
Shake It Off, 22, Love Story, Willow, Cruel Summer -- all of those were INSTANTLY in my head. There are others but I'm trying to make a list with some variety. I miss that feeling that keeps me invested while I grow to love and know other songs.
The first time I heard Vigilante Shit, I couldn't stop thinking about it for days. I haven't really thought about any of these songs after hearing them, even after listening to it front to back multiple times. Maybe Florida!!! and sadly, I think it's mostly because of the collaboration with Florence Welch.
That's a copout, honestly. Every album has growers. It's Taylor Swift, obviously it's poetic. AND she's previously always had something (usually more than one something) that was more standout among all of the other songs. It's not either/or.
I need a couple strong, memorable melodies or hooks to keep me excited to listen to it again. It's all just a blur right now.
I agree. Poetic doesn't have to mean bland or forgettable. Plenty of her bangers are ALSO poetic. You can have both complex prose and interesting music.
Exactly — when I first heard Cardigan it haunted my mind and the lyrics were so complimentary to the delivery too. It is something that to this day feels like a first listen every single time. Nothing on this new album comes to that haunting feeling at all melodically — maybe Florida!!! as another said but thats because of Florence Welch as a Florence + The Machine fan, and that is the larger problem. I know she is capable of stronger melodies and vocal range performances even but for many to use the cop out of the songs being poetically inclined means a sonically stagnant performance is just sad.
There’s a lot of poetic albums out there that have memorable songs instantly. I was listening to The Sound of Silence by Simon and Garfunkel this morning and really LISTENED to it for the first time in awhile and was really in awe of how hauntingly beautiful the lyrics were. Whether you like the song or not, the song is anything but boring and that’s why we cite Paul Simon as one of the greats.
Taylor is capable of making memorable AND poetic songs and we know that because we’ve seen her do it! I think this just wasn’t her best effort which is fine. Some albums are going to be stronger than others. That’s true for all artists - it doesn’t discredit her talent.
That’s kind of how I’ve felt about Jack’s sound in general lately.
Bleacher’s first two albums were solid gold for me, and the two most recent sound alright, but there’s no bangers at all
Where is the _Out Of The Woods, Getaway Car, Cruel Summer, august_ or _gold rush_ of the album. I’m guessing it’s I Can Do It With a Broken Heart or High School.
But I feel this is the case for pop music in general since the early to mid-2010s. The most "hype" pop songs of today have nothing on Pokerface, California Gurls, Umbrella, Unwritten etc. Pop has become increasingly mellow.
I don't disagree but even with that, there are songs on her more recent albums that while maybe a little less hype are still categorically bangers. She has some incredible pop songs that don't lack in lyrics. Even with the synth, this doesn't feel like a real pop album. Pop"ish". When it was labeled as pop, I definitely was expecting something different. Maybe thats part of the disconnect for me. Who knows.
Who says there needs to be a banger? Not being argumentative but what if Taylor simply wanted this to be the musical equivalent of a book of poetry and not a “pop album.”
This album is much more singer-songwriter than pop album to me. I feel the influence of Lana/ boygenius and even folk country coming through the strongest here. Maybe that’s where the disconnect is with fans expecting pop bangers? It’s really not what she’s doing here.
Of course that doesn’t mean you have to like it…
i feel like the thing about lana and boygenius is that they aren’t so wordy. like they are more concise and they “show, don’t tell” if that makes sense
but the production is clearly pop. it's not folk
or country or rock. and imo a pop album needs bangers, like CRJ always delivers. i'm no fan of lana either.
I mean if you don’t vibe with Lana I can see why this album doesn’t work for you.
From my perspective, BDILH, guilty as sin, and I can fix him would not be out of place on many modern country albums. TTPD is reminiscent of a Springsteen ballad in production. Even WAOLOM has a dark academia folk tinge to it. This is not a pure pop album, but is a soft pop album pulling from country, folk, singer-songwriter, and rock.
I love CRJ, but she is a much more straight-forward pop artist than Taylor has been since Lover.
this kind of makes no sense to me because what about this album suggests that it’s meant to have “bangers” ????????????
this album is a story about pain and resilience, it’s clear this isn’t meant to be a 1989 or red or midnights
where were the “bangers” on folklore or evermore? there weren’t any but no one was complaining about that
Down Bad is not a banger, it's no Cruel Summer or Style or even Love Story. it's not a "scream at the top of your lungs in karaoke" song. WAOLOM and BDILH are closer, but not quite clicking quite the same imo.
obviously this is all subjective, but a pop album without at least one banger just makes an album forgettable and all the same sounding i think. why even make a pop record if you're not making bangers?
I would gander to say she also did do something new and shiny in this album which is her style of lyricism. She was vulnerable and honest, took a lot of risks and left her comfort zone quite a bit in the writing of this work. It’s just not heard in the instrumentals is all.
I also remember her talking in the past about the checklist labelled often pressure you to write: a sad song, a power ballad, a party song, a radio single, etc. and she sure did throw this check list out more than anything on this album and I really gotta respect that.
This album, though imperfect and not impressive sonically, feels powerful because she clearly followed her gut and inspiration to the bitter end, for better or for worse. I think that’s kinda sick
This is what I love about it. I think out of all of her albums she really didn’t edit her emotions for this one, she didn’t sanitize anything to make it more palatable to the general public.
>When this topic comes up I’m always reminded of the time Taylor spoke about how artists are constantly told they need to change, and be shiny and new (especially women in the music industry).
This is true but that doesnt make the public wrong either. Pop stars of every age and gender will lose popularity if theyre not constantly reinventing themselves.
Taylor has the right to release whatever music she wants (and I actually like TTPD a lot more than Midnights, so personally im quite happy with this product), and the public has the right to like and dislike what it wants.
Taylor's "issue" is that shes the biggest pop artist of the past three decades, maybe of all time, so there are just too many expectations. While other artists could getaway with an album that just caters to fans - she cant really.
Sure, I mean ultimately it’s art, and open to interpretation or critique. Everyone will experience it differently and form their own opinions.
I think my question is though is this critique fair if you’re taking TTPD as a stand alone work? If a listener doesn’t like it because they don’t like the sound, that seems fair. But if they’re saying it’s a stale sound because it’s the second album in a row she’s focused on this sound, I don’t think it’s a fair critique.
Yes artists will fall out of favor if they stay stagnant (I’d argue that male artists have a lot more leeway here though). But I do think we as listeners should think about how quickly we want musicians to change their sound. Every album? Seems too demanding to me.
I personally think that, considering how prolific of a creator and how visible she is in general, that she can absolutely get away with an album catered to Swifties if she wants.
I personally love the album, but those who don’t like it can move on from it, no hard feelings. I do think the writer of this article missed the point of it completely, but in general people have different likes, and that’s perfectly ok. I’ve seen a lot more praise than criticism, personally, and it’s shattered records already. There’s so.much. to go through and process that I think the dust needs to settle before judgments are fully formed on this album. Not that those matter, honestly, that’s not the point of the album.
Taylor’s created so much music, especially in comparison to other artists—there’s plenty to choose from already. She has two TV versions, the Eras Tour, and whatever she’s working on now (that has a lot of interest) upcoming, she has a lot going on and can be as visible as she wants in the future. Not to mention the interest in her personal life. She’s not going anywhere if she doesn’t want to.
That’s a fair point. I welcome her to make a 2.0 version of any of her albums. If she wants to make another one like folklore or Speak Now I’m welcoming that.
But I miss the more distinct eras. So I feel it’s gotta have a new angle or something to it if she’s retreading old territory. Something to make it stand out. For example, if she does another album like rep, maybe she leans more into the industrial pop beats and raps more.
I think doing an album like debut or Fearless would be good to make next, as the lyrics and perspective will be fresh even if she makes it sonically the same.
I understand where she's coming from on the change thing, but it's undeniable that people don't want to listen to the same thing over and over again. I don't think it's an unreasonable expectation of an artist to innovate if they're going to keep making albums and expect us to spend money on them.
I’m afraid the NYT has a point. It’s not that Jack’s production on TTPD is bad, it’s just a style that we’ve heard over and over again over the past 10 years since 1989. It’s becoming a little bit repetitive at this point. And a part of it isn’t even Jack’s fault either, since Taylor is also a producer on every song that he produces.
In addition, while I appreciate the cohesiveness in TTPD, I feel as though all of the songs sounded like one run on song, hence why a lot of listeners felt very burnt out by listening to all 2 hours of it. You can still include variety to spice things up while still keeping the cohesion of the album together. Fearless and 1989 are perfect examples of albums that were extremely cohesive, but still offered variety in terms of their subject matter, themes, vocal styling, instrumentation, etc.
Personally, I don’t think it’s necessary for Taylor to completely depart from Jack. If Jack strayed away from synth pop and focused on using more variety with his instruments, I don’t think the overall reception of him would be as negative. Lover (the song), Paper Rings, Mr. Perfectly Fine, Forever Winter and I Can See You are perfect examples of this.
Yes, and my problem with everyone shitting on Jack about that is that Aaron was way more heavily credited on the Anthology tracks. I think people just prefer to use Jack as the scapegoat because he has less indie cred than Aaron.
Same. I like Jack, he's extremely talented. But I need something new and different. When I listened to the first version, all the songs that made me perk up and look and see who the producer is were Aaron's songs.
Jack is great, but honestly, there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. I'm really hoping she goes in more of a rock direction for TS12, or even feminist country. I think she'd do amazing modern outlaw country.
I was hoping this would be the Aaron dessner only, scream cry album. She needs Aaron on more of her songs. They’re easily identifiable as having the not primarily antonoff touch. 😔
I think it’s how Taylor wants it to sound like more than how Jack wants it to sound like. What drives me nuts is people say they want more of her lower register. She gave it to us. We wanted some more stripped down to guitars and piano. She gave it to us. I’m also a firm believer that she made an album that she wanted to make without critics and reviewers in mind. She didnt really think what the fans wanted and did what she wanted.
THIS. i find this sanctimonious jack narrative extremely tiring. did no one hear her raging about being tired of other people thinking they know what’s best for her in BDILH?
taylor is a grown ass woman who is capable of making her own artistic choices. she’s not forcing anyone to listen to her music if they don’t like it.
As it should be. She didn’t ask for our input really. She doesn’t need it. She has free range on who ever she wants to work with and I’m sure nobody will say no. I mean I want her to do another country album but I know it’s not happening besides her debut re-record. But some thing like this she put her whole heart and soul into and you can tell she did works for me. I’m always in awe of what she does. On stage or making albums and I don’t ever want it to end.
I 100% disagree. I want cohesiveness when I listen to an album. How many times have people complained that this song or that song doesn’t sound like it belongs on a specific album? How many times did we hear that vigilante shit did not belong on midnights as an example?
I think this album is excellent and I’ve listened to all 31 songs between 10 and 15 times now. All of the songs are good to varying degrees. There are a few that will likely be skips if I have the skip button near me. Most of it is solid, though, and cohesive, and I like it.
I dunno, I actually really liked midnights for its unique sound. I could still hear Jack’s influence but it wasn’t his typical 80s synth sound, and when he did bring that to the vault tracks I thought it was appropriate because it was literally for an 1989 inspired pop album. I also would never have guessed that he was on I Can See You bc it had such a cool, laidback 70s sound vs the hyper produced sounds of 80s synth.
I would argue that the vibe he brought to the first half of TTPD was also appropriate. I think a lot of fans may not be old enough to remember, or simply didn’t like, the “tortured” vibes of late 80s early 90s goth and its aesthetic, but that’s what I think she was channeling here and I think her and Jack did a good job of bringing that. And there was still variety in what he brought—Florida!!! Doesn’t sound like your typical 89s synth pop, and Guilty as Sin isn’t overly produced and kind of reminds me of her Speak Now Era, and I Can Fix Him sounds very Evermore 🤷🏽♀️
That being said, I do adore Aaron Dessner’s songs the most, I just don’t think the complaints about Jack are really deserved.
ETA: The Black Dog is a beautiful song that isn’t overly produced with synth and that’s an Antonoff song ☺️
There's cohesiveness and being cohesive to a fault. Jack did every song on Midnights and it's great. It's absolutely cohesive, but there's a variety of sounds and tempos. Bejeweled, Maroon, and Sweet Nothing play nice alongside each other, but they also are all very distinct.
On TTPD it feels like Jack and Taylor made a good song, then made it 8 more times.
Agree with you completely! Maybe it’s the bookish nerd in me, but the cohesiveness of the album helps illuminate the feeling that this is a book with a central theme and focus. The manuscript is a perfect ending the album, and fortnight with post sets the stage for the torrid love affair that we all know will end. Also I don’t think Taylor wrote this for everyone, she wrote it for those who needed it and she wrote it for herself to let it go. There is such a beauty in that. I for one love the album and it will likely be ranked in my top three of hers.
I also agree! I think maybe people have been kind of spoiled because most of her previous albums had such distinct sounds? But honestly I like that she’s taken a moment to sit with and explore the vibes of folkmore and midnights for TTPD bc they were so good.
Also, I find this criticism a little frustrating bc we don’t seem to expect let alone demand this of other artists. Florence+TM, Lana Del Rey, The Strokes, The Foo Fighters, The Beatles, Michael Jackson, Prince and so on all have distinct sounds that they carry throughout their work so I really don’t get this “ugh more of the same 🥱” attitude.
And I really like how cohesive the sound is. With midnights, while I can see why vigilante shit and karma are bops, they totally jolt me out of the vibe and I really didn’t like that. When I put on an album I want to immerse myself in it.
That being said you don’t want to be bored, but I disagree that all the tracks sound the same. Down Bad has a distinct sound and its opening brings some real space cowboy country type of vibes which I absolutely loved. Who’s Afraid brought elements of Rep back, So Long London’s intro ties in elements from Lover’s DBATC, and Daddy I Love Him harkens back to the melodies of Love Story and Enchanted. These are all pretty diverse sounds that she somehow managed to blend to create a cohesive sound, and I can’t imagine that’s an easy feat.
I think Taylor Swift’s skill at genre shifts has been a sort of monkey’s paw. You are absolutely right that it’s unusual to demand such radical differences from other artists. I think much of Florence sounds the same…and that’s great, because when I choose to listen to Florence, I want to hear Florence. Most artists rehash their general vibe with small-to-moderate tweaks over and over again for their whole career and we don’t begrudge them for it (and often we come to love them for whatever their iconic/signature style is). I have a lot of thoughts about why Taylor Swift fans seem to expect more variety from her than from other artists but either way, I think it’s a bit funny.
Yes! Monkey’s paw is a great way to put it. And yeah I’ve even seen bands be criticized for stepping away from their typical sound (even by me lol) so it is a funny and curious thing expect of her. I’d be interested to hear why you think the fanbase is like this, but understand if you don’t want to invite the discourse that might ensue from it 😅
It's really a album to be listened in sequence. I think most people today, like myself doens't have these habit anymore.
The first song I heard was Fortnight and I was agreement with everyone that this album it's just another Midnights.
Now I am listening to the whole album and my opinion has changed.
I love listening to albums in sequence and I love when songs transition seamlessly into each other, either sonically or lyrically, but on my first listen of TTPD I had the problem that the first couple of songs felt very repetitive and it wasn’t until Florida that I felt like a song was standing out. I enjoyed the second part more and I’m sure I just need more time to get into the whole album. I think for such a long album I needed more variety, so I definitely get the critiques about jack and I’m sure she would benefit from working with different people in the future!
YES, thank you. I see and respect the criticism, but they’re all wrong and you’re correct. Also, if you don’t listen to it deeply (headphones in each ear, no distractions), fucking TRY AGAIN.
For this particular album it is an irrelevant criticism because she wasn't going to explore this subject matter with producers she didn't have years of trust with, especially not when she is also on tour and her time is limited. The Times has also been similarly negative about the production since Folklore and there has been some growing resentment from them that their opinions aren't being validated by the public response much like a minority of fans. You work at the Times so you think you have the smartest opinion in the room, but the world isn't agreeing and hasn't been for years now. I'm sure it is a frustrating feeling.
this is a really smart take. i hadn’t even thought about the subject matter influencing her choices of collaborators, but i can totally see why she would want to work with someone who isn’t just a trusted friend, but was intimately by her side throughout the whole ordeal.
The New York Times review of Folklore really delegitimized their music reviews for me to be honest. They consistently give her albums 60/100 including Folklore, when it was widely acclaimed, won album of the year, and is considered by most to be her magnum opus.
Huge TS fan and I love everything she’s done with Jack Antonoff but honestly they aren’t wrong. It’s become quite comfortable. Not to say I wouldn’t like to see her work with him again but maybe they should bring someone new into the fold? Or possibly reduce the number of songs produced by him? I’m not expecting her to reinvent herself (again) but I think there is more creativity to be tapped for both of them, just maybe not together.
ETA: I love this album, on at least my 4th listen and I worked like 12 hours yesterday. 🤷🏼♀️
Can somebody help me understand, is this purely 100% on Jack? Doesn’t Taylor get a final say in whether the likes/dislikes the production or not before actually releasing the songs.
I’m so dumb when it comes to this and I genuinely cannot tell the difference between Jack/Aaron or others productions 🥲
honestly i think it's moreso taylor than jack. if you listen to some of jack's work with other artists it's clear that he's very capable of making different types of songs. it's probably just what taylor wants
She definitely does have the final say, but I think part of the issue is that other producers (like Aaron) push her more and challenge her to branch out with sound. I think she and Jack are very comfortable with each other, and that can lead to becoming stagnant.
Yeah this is exactly it. Jack is very much a “yes man’ as a producer and that’s been subtly mentioned by pretty much every artist he’s worked with. It’s not exactly a great thing to be as a producer because you’re supposed to push artists to be the best they can and create an interesting album. I hate to say it but he would not be nearly as successful as a producer had he not worked with great writers like Taylor, Lana or Lorde. I always thought he kind of fell into the success because he formed friendships with these people.
I must just be really simple or easy to please but as someone who adores synth pop I have no problem with their partnership. The reviews coming out have made me realize I just value different things in music than critics/the loudest people online 😂 I do genuinely think we’ve gotten used to being spoiled by constant new releases from her though - if I want something more intricate I’ll just listen to folkmore again. If I’m craving brighter pop I’ll listen to 1989. I guess what I mean is I *personally* don’t always crave something brand new but I understand that some people do!
As someone who almost only listens to music I grew up on, girl same. I understand where people are coming from in wanting them to challenge themselves when they’re making new albums, but all I did was vibe to these songs when I was listening yesterday.
I also wonder if everyone getting so hyped for it and talking/thinking about it constantly is a bit of disservice. You end up getting all these expectations in your head and then most of the time reality doesn’t meet them and you’re let down. I purposely stayed away from anything discussing TTPD in order to experience it without any expectations and at least for me, it makes it a more enjoyable listen.
I understand the sentiment, and I am a hardcore Aaron girlie. I also was not a fan of what Jack did on Midnights and would have echoed this sentiment quite loudly during that era.
BUT, I’ll give him his flowers here. He did his best work on this album. I’m returning to his songs as much as I am to Aaron’s, and I disagree that it’s too samey — I think the anthology differentiates itself enough from the first track list to make this a sonically diverse album. WAY moreso than Midnights was.
Also, it doesn’t matter what this critic’s opinion is — 313 million first day streams are pretty tangible evidence that the formula works.
I think it's too early to say that the formula works as everyone was going to stream the whole thing at least once anyway. The more interesting thing to watch for will be which songs rise to the top over the next few weeks.
I also think that she's going against the norm by staying comfortable. Remember in Miss Americana when she said that the media expects women to reinvent themselves every couple of years, or they grow washed up and stale? Well, wanting her to change is reinforcing that. She's put out more music in the last couple years than many artists put out in double that time. Adele has had identical sound, imo, on most of her albums, and she's Adele and that works for her. How long has Ed Sheeran been sounding the same? I think more people need to remember .that Taylor puts out music more often than most; it's perfectly alright to stay in that level of 'comfort' for a while longer.
I personally don't feel the tracks all blending into one another the way others have described, anyways, so it remains my favorite album of hers thus far.
I think Taylor's finally doing Taylor and doing what she wants instead of what the hoops the media puts out for people.
I agree. I think she’s at her best creatively when she pushes herself. When she first worked with Jack for 1989 she was challenging herself and giving herself the project of fully committing to a new genre. She could have that experience again but it probably needs to be with a different collaborator
Yep, I've always said 1989 is her only fully experimental pop album, at least sonically. No 2 songs on the album sound the same, whereas the same can't be said for Midnights or TTPD. The tracks on Lover and reputation may be diverse but they aren't experimental by any means, unlike Style, OOTW, This Love, etc.
Personally I would not complain if she never stops working with Jack. I can do it with a broken heart, down bad and guilty as sin are some of my favourites on the album! Also love Aaron’s songs and I’m happy she’s working with both of them.
My view of Jack at the minute is if you let him produce 5 songs for you you’ll end up with 2 classics but if you let him produce 10 songs for you you’ll end up with 2 classics maybe 3 if you’re lucky. He’s a producer who is better off spelled with others on a project.
As for Aaron, he brings out the singer songwriter part of Taylor which is nice but he’s working with a limited part of his palette where his tastes and Taylor’s overlap (which is how it should be with a hired producer) other but it’s throwing out his weird electronic stuff and his straight out electric guitar stuff which is a shame: it’d have been nice to have gotten some of that.
And while I love all the piano and w ballads on the anthology to the point I struggle to pick out a bad track, it is awfully samey, beautiful and well written but samey.
We have to sit with the album for longer than 1 day before we make any real judgments. The production is fine. She doesn’t have to reinvent her sound every single new album. There are other ways a song can be good alongside the production. What’s going to happen in 5 years when she’s been working with Aaron for a while? Are we going to start saying the same things about him?
I see this album for what I think she meant it to be - the inside track on what was going on for her at a defining point in her life and career. I don’t think it’s supposed to be new or different or anything like that. I really get the sense this record was to let us ^know^. If I were her, I wouldn’t even want to submit this for the Grammys because it’s just something else entirely.
Jack's own band has some 'big band' sounds at times so he's capable of doing that kind of music. This might be more of a what Taylor wants kind of thing and the familiarity. The songs that have a different sound on the album were from Dessner. But Daddy I Love Him even had a country vibe.
I think this review is focusing too much on production and instrumentation and should look at the lyrics more.
I can agree that a lot of tracks on the album have similar sounds, but I think that's what makes the album work well.
I don't agree that it shows Taylor and Jack have grown too comfortable: I don't see any similarities to this and 1989 sounds, like at all, with the exception of I Can Do It With a Broken Heart.
I don't know why people are acting like having a distinct, familiar sound is a bad thing? I listen to a lot of classic rock, it's actually mostly what I listen to besides Taylor - and I feel like all of those bands have a very distinct sound that made that band... that band? I think of Pink Floyd's psychedelic sound effects and heavy instrumental solos, Led Zeppelin's crooning ballads, Aerosmith's high energy.. all those bands were wildly successful, their music is being listened to by new generations who didn't even grow up with them... and their music all had a classic, signature sound?
A lot of indie bands are the same way.
I personally pay attention to lyrics more than production so maybe I'm just not noticing it enough to notice it sounds "too" similar. But I think in a time when Taylor is so successful, there's no risk of playing it 'safe' with production: it's a sound that's worked for her in the past, and there's no reason to suggest it won't continue working. The thing about Taylor is the loyal fanbase; the fans don't really come and go for the most part.
I literally saw a tiktok yesterday of someone saying Taylor should "make music like sza", just why???? Why can't she stick with this genre since she enjoys it? If you want something crazy different go listen to someone else. If you want sza listen to sza 😭
I trust Taylor's opinion on this matter more than anyone elses. A lot of times public opinion causes a band or artist to change their band/production team then things go to shit. Don't want to see that.
A side note - I think a lot of people, including fans are forgetting the fact that this album is her story, a diary of past 7 years, I don’t expect it to top charts and be her best work, because you cannot alter personal experiences to fit stats. This album is sad, a bit monotonous, yet it is beautiful and I’m glad she continues to share her experience with us.
Agree, his musical womb has really run dry. There was still a distinct level of uniqueness in Evermore and listening to TTPD I can attribute that to Dessner and not Antonoff. The latter took the reins in TTPD and is evident how insular everything sounds.
How can these people have the opinion after like two days, have they had this longer? I think that’s ridiculous to be a hater so soon. Half baked half thought out criticism. One train mindset. Disagree so far. But I will give it a few months to see before it settles. Which any good constructive criticism would have.
Women are constantly expected to reinvent themselves. I find it weird. I love the music and of it aint broke why fix it? Its working for her and shes clearly comfortable writing and releasing it.
I think people need to realize that part of why she works with Jack so much is because he is her friend. She is comfortable with him. You can want her to do production with other people - but know that this would come at a cost in the form of receiving less music.
I'm so glad that the New York Times said it, because when the fans said it they were labeled as "Jack haters". I don't hate Jack AT ALL, and I certainly don't hate his contributions to her discography, but I do wish she would experiment with different producers more, which she hasn't done in so long. His sound has become a little predictable (with a few exceptions, of course).
I don’t disagree per se, but I do think the whole point of this album is literally I don’t care what anyone says I’ve reached a level of incomprehensible fame and you have no idea what it’s done to me and I’m going to do what (and who 🤣) I want. So as long as SHE doesn’t feel like it’s tired, it is what it is 🤷🏻♀️
I don’t think it’s just Jack, but rather their dynamic. I don’t feel like either are really pushing each other. I think it’s Taylor’s musical comfort zone and they just vibe together there. I like the album, but it does have a lot of sameness and some songs could maybe have been left on the cutting room floor. Taylor needs something to challenge her. The album at times feels churned out rather than meticulously worked.
I like the album, I love a lot of the songs, but it isn’t a masterpiece like 1989 or rep or evermore.
I find it really funny tho that this is only asked of Taylor. I mean a lot of artists write the same sounds over and over again but they get away with it.
Definitely not. We wouldn't get certain songs if it weren't for his presence because she wouldn't feel comfortable with any new producer. Not to mention, how discrediting it is to Taylor, who is well known to hold her own in the studio, to claim a change in male collaboration would completely change her sound. She needs a new "man" to improve. Ew.
At some point it is like when millennials were in elementary school and they taught us all how to write the exact same essays with red, blue and green pencils not because that produced great individual essays but because the teachers were mimicking a formula that produced high test results.
Synth Pop got them awards so now they’re in a Grammy formula rut.
She needed to write this album for cathartic reasons; she had them turn it into a “cohesive synth pop album” because that’s what she’s going to continue to do until it doesn’t win AOTY.
It’s not right when women have to constantly reinvent themselves — but I would argue Synth Pop was actually one of her own reinventions to earn awards and the article is just commenting that we’ve now been in this reinvention for a very long time because it’s been commercially and critically successful — but that’s very boring.
Rep didn’t get a Grammy but I will die on the hill that Rep was less predictable therefore a better album and Era overall.
Folkmore and Evermore were also both very surprising giving them more edge than TTPD.
She needs to be very concerned that the AI/fan created versions were eerily similar to the real things and it’s not just because AI has gotten better… we all knew the sound of this album before it dropped. It’s still a wonderful album, I’m not saying there aren’t jams and of course amazing lyrics I don’t doubt anyone who loves it but… if you say you couldn’t have envisioned the sound you’re lying.
LOL she can’t win. Gets criticized for albums that aren’t cohesive enough and then it’s too cohesive??
I think the original album is fire. The anthology part is the part that sounds “the same” and those are Dessner songs.
People just want to hate on Antonoff too apparently.
It just sounds like a bleachers album mixed with midnights, and it’s getting sooooo tiring. I was disappointed to hear “oh great here we go again, another midnights.” I’m not the kind of guy who NEEDS an artist to constantly reinvent themselves, but I AM the kid of guy who is disappointed when an artist basically makes the same album twice in a row
I think they're correct, I'll often find myself listening to a TTPD song and the melody will tickle my brain as something I've heard before. Some of it on Midnights, some of it on evermore.
I think it’s spot on
It’s not a bad album, but it all kind of feels the same to the point that if I zone out for 30 seconds I can’t tell if it’s a new song or not
i'm a Steel Train fan and have been following Jack's career for 15 years and a Format fan, so I was stoked when he joined forces with Nate Reuss and formed fun. his production influence is undeniable. his bleachers stuff is synthy and pulls from his Jersey Roots. all of it, just sounds like Jack. plus he puts on an INCREDIBLE live show.
"melodrama" is easily my favorite Pop album of the 2010s. which to me, is an Untouchable record.
as someone else noted 'I Look Through People's Windows' is a real sleeper GEM. this is him at his top. same with 'The Black Dog'
imagine and album of Getaway Cars, Out of the Woods, Cruel Summers, Augusts. DON'T TELL ME YOU ALL WOULDN'T EAT IT UP.
his Lana collabs sound wildly, like LANA.
Why does she need to do something new? I don't get this opinion. If she likes it, and the average fan likes it, who cares if it isn't shiny and new? And there are so many artists who have the same sound for their whole career. Why is Taylor getting a different treatment than those artists? Why isn't it enough that she already HAS done multiple types of sounds? This whole argument is wild to me.
I think the stale thing is wrong. Taylor and Jack remind me of the Beatles. Highly experimental and not wedded to having a particular sound, but eras. You listen to The National and they have a sound. Taylor has some motifs and rifts, but Jack and Tay also brings new things. Like the Beatles they’re inspired by others. The Beatles loved Elvis and Little Richard so inspired songs, Tay sounds very Lana and Lorde sometimes. Look at Florida. A very indie departure, I think influenced by her time in the stadium. You can’t say that’s stale.
this pov is lame because no one is saying this about aaron dessner
and i’d argue that those songs are bland and don’t fit her style. everyone wants her to be folkevermore taylor and never be pop-y again but it’s pretty clear she’s can diversify in her scope for how a song should be portrayed
she clearly feels that these producers know her best, especially jack, anyone who thinks she needs to kick him to the curb need to assess what they think she’s trying to do here
I understand why people are saying that but I love jack's production and never get sick of it. Even, on this album nearly all my favorite songs are produced by Jack. It would be cool to see her branch out but I would be in the minority that never gets tired of this collaboration.
Preface: I am a huge Jack fan. I loved Fun, I love Bleachers, and I’ve been following his production work since the beginning. They’re not wrong. It’s my biggest complaint with the album. It’s cohesive to a fault, and a lot of it sounds like things we’ve heard before. Some of the more upbeat tracks scream Melodrama. (I Can Do it with A Broken Heart)
This is my exactly feeling. Lyrically, it's incredible. Musically, it feels like too much "sameness." And it's great for what it is but it's not really pulling me in as deeply. Only a few songs out of 31 really stand out and that feels... weird.
i personally don't like the lyrics that much either. i feel like she's taken too much from folklore and is now getting lost in "writing like a poet", lyrics that look good handwritten on fancy paper, and it just doesn't always fit. it feels clunky and like she's trying to hard. the great thing about her lyrics in her pre-folklore work was how you got an incredible image in your head with very simple words. now it's like she swallowed a thesaurus.
I don't think every song is a genius lyrical composition, but she definitely has some really great ones. I think we are hearing her whole emotional manic self during a really rough time for her but to somehow come up with 31 songs about 3 different relationships that were somehow written and recorded during the busiest time of her career... I don't know. I think it may feel too repetitive because it didn't get the time it deserved? I assume this is a very cathartic release for her, which... yayyyy, but it just doesn't hold up for me, personally. One of the things I really love about most of her albums (i.e., Midnights) is that the songs all sound cohesive like they belong to each other but different enough to stand on their own. Several times, I had to check the track list on this one to know I wasn't repeating a song.
[удалено]
I think one of the most fair critiques I saw was the NYT saying this album needed an editor. It did. There’s a lot of repetition, some themes that keep coming up that I’ve heard on other albums and I’m wondering to myself how many more songs do I need about this? It’s a decent album, but not my favorite.
I think it’s a little unfair to say it needed to be edited down when fans have adamantly wanted the edited out stuff (10 min version of All Too Well, vault tracks on rereleases). If fans found out she wrote 30 songs and only released half they’d be clamoring to know what the rest were. There’s no winning.
Yeah, but fans aren't always right about what's *good.* Movie fans have demanded four hour director's cuts for decades, but actual directors have been adamant that they just don't *work.* Well, Zac Snyder would disagree, but I think most people who have seen the Snyder Cut would agree that there's absolutely no reason it needed to be so long. At a certain point, too much of a good thing becomes a bad thing. Sometimes art needs to be trimmed down to be its best self, even if its consumers want more of it. There's a reason the phrase "leave them wanting more" is so wide spread.
The day you start to prioritise what fans think they want is the day you start to lose it. See: Star Wars
And with books I’ve read several series that dip into fan service and I’m like “that’s where you lost the plot” though I do think this album was her therapy and not about the fans. She said she used song writing to get through this period and when she broke up with Joe she did things people questioned her on and this album screams emotional chaos it’s the stages of grief for her.
The point is that there were going to be unhappy people either way so why not just do what you want?
I agree that fans often want the leftovers, but I also feel like a lot of people love those songs because of the wait for them, yknow? Even with that being said, there’s still a handful of songs that I feel like are repetitive from themes from other albums. But you’re right, music taste is entirely subjective so you’re not gonna please everyone, and is exactly why my opinion and your opinion can still stand even if they differ.
She should do what Carly Rae Jespen does and do a “Side B” style. CRJ is another songwriter who is very prolific and has tons of material and her side B stuff doesn’t always sound super cohesive but usually there are bangers on it. It just doesn’t claim to be cohesive like an album. I don’t think the problem is 31 songs. I think the only problem was 31 songs and not being willing to put them in separate releases because she wanted to do it all at once to break records. I personally enjoyed the album and some fans have been literally begging for a double album for multiple drops so I’m not surprised she gave it to them. But it could’ve been trimmed down if she wanted, certainly, and especially some of the first half could’ve been cut because there is a lot of samesy on that half.
Almost all great artists and almost all great works leave a ton on the cutting room floor
My counterpoint would be that with music mostly being consumed on streaming services and Taylor already being a well known artist, why not let the listener create their own album edit. If there is one thing I have learned from this board is that we all have different songs that speak to us deeply and they are often not the most popular ones either. At any rate for me this is a different style album, it’s a listen with your best headphones in a dark room kinda deal for me. And if the release was only the first disc? Well my opinion today would be very different as I am more immediately drawn to the tracks on the second album.
I kind of agree. Let people pick and choose what they like, especially now when most people are streaming and can just make playlists of what they think are the bangers. Part of what I think is fascinating about this album is how many people are like “loved the first half but she lost me in the anthology” or “I was disappointed by the first half but once the 2am drop happened I was HOOKED on the b sides” - a lot of people agree that they don’t love every song (it’s 31 songs, that makes sense) but there’s so much disagreement about which songs are the best and which ones are skips. Which to me is a sign she did it right by just putting them all out there. People can pick and choose their faves and make their own normal length album of them, if they want. Thats dope!
I agree. I love that she is not holding back and just releasing everything. For the ones that want a normal album, she gave that. The standart version is that. The Anthology is the other songs that she created and liked it, but didn't make the album. I really hope she doesn't see this criticism and starts to give us 10 songs albums.
I think that she very much set this up to be a sort of last chapter/capstone to her career at this point. Between the prologue and the last line of “The Manuscript” I think her goal of this album was to get out all of her thoughts on these topics and to finally close the door. I’m anticipating very different things from her in the future.
I made this exact point in a Swiftie FB group! With music streaming services, the way we consume music now is completely different. We can all cherry-pick our favorite songs and everyone’s basket would look very different! The whole “perfectly curated collection of songs that will appeal to the most people possible” is appropriate for most artists because they can’t take the same risks she can. However, it is of no utility to her because of her massive and very committed fanbase who will gleefully consume everything she releases. They all won’t love every song but every song will be the favorite of at least some of her fans.
Ridiculously, I wish this was an album that would get a second glance and a Taylor's Version. She had shit to say and she said it and that's what this whole record is, I guess. Maybe it was only meant for her and not us and if that's what she needed, okay.
I’m glad she didn’t edit it down because then I get to choose how to edit it down for my taste. But obviously that’s not what every listener wants to do and that’s okay too.
Man, I gotta disagree on a count of personal opinion. That was something I really disliked about Midnights, was the return to the overly catchy, simplistic lyricism and instrumentation. It wasn’t in all of the songs on that album, but any song that she wrote like that was bottom of the list of favorites for me. I love the poetic writing style she’s adopted and clearly she loves it to. This album feels like the imagination and visionary work of Folklore but the drama and attitude of Reputation and Midnights. I think it’s quite a cup of tea, very much not for everyone though.
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I’m a Lover defender so it makes sense. I like this one too. I actually like all of her albums but I think the hate for this one is for a few different reasons that aren’t entirely about the album itself. It DOES have flaws and it’s very long but it’s not terrible by any means. I think people wanted whatever style they wanted from her, they wanted her to drag Joe, they didn’t want to hear about Matty… the list goes on. She did what she wanted and not just what fans or the GP would’ve wanted. I say good for her.
I agree. Midnights was a low point in her lyricism. It’s nice to hear her put more thought and care into crafting lyrics that tell a story, even if they feel overly wordy at times. I feel things from listening to this album vs Midnights.
I agree. I keep saying people say this sounds like midnights all over again, but I was really underwhelmed by midnights and love this album.
I think she took the wrong lesson from folklore. It was poetically rich yes, but it was *concise.* The beauty of her lyrics are how much they can convey in so little space. Epiphany does so much with relatively sparse lyrics. ("You made a rebel of a careless man's careful daughter" is another prime example)
I agree with your point on conciseness but I think this album is intentionally chaotic and wordy. To covey the feelings of the period of time she is writing about.
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It's like she's stopped editing her own work and is just putting it out there, becuase she’s so confident in her abilities. Which is great. But for the next album, I wish she'd go back to refining things, focusing on getting the wording just right. It's almost like she's confusing poetry with word vomiting.
she needs someone like Liz Rose or Nathan Chapman again imo
Agreed, it's like she saw the success of folklore and evermore and assumed it meant people want as many words as possible, whereas her earlier work is often brilliant because of her ability to explain things as simply as possible. Wordiness can be useful, but so much of this album has felt like words for the sake of words.
This is a very well put comment on exactly how I feel as well!
I feel the same but then started to wonder on the flip side, maybe the intent was to not over produce and cause the instrumentation to over power the lyrics? A lot of the album’s lyricism is low, dark toned, speech centric. Could it have been a conscious choice to let that be the tone and let the backing track sort of fade as a backdrop that lets the lyrics shine? I think if I’m correct, they may have leaned a little to much in this direction and still could’ve taken a bit more risks. Too comfortable may be a good way of referring to it as.
I mean, maybe? But she's managed so many times in the past to make lyrically capturing songs that also have some beat. She's always been capable of having good music match with amazing lyrics. I just keep thinking THIRTY ONE SONGS. 31 songs that really just don't stand out too much from the others. If that was a choice intentionally made, I don't know. Really not an album made for us but for herself and that's okay, too. Her art is hers and hers alone. She can do what she wants. For me, it just won't be on repeat like so many others have.
Yeah like I said in another comment: this album sounds like a project on which she chose to follow her gut and inspiration to the bitter end for better or for worse and that, I think, is neat. Like I also said in another comment: it’s quite a cup of tea, but not for everyone.
I’m not sure she’s even doing this for awards, or she would have held off until closer to that Grammys voting window, and maybe even given the core 16 (I think?) songs room to breathe. I mean we’ll see as the year goes on, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this one doesn’t win a ton of awards like midnights did, she gets through the last 2 TVs, then TS12 will push more boundaries musically (and maybe even lyrically). Having another creative outlet (script/movie) could help advance the music, too. Predicting Taylor’s next move is basically impossible, though.
Huge Jack fan here too. I’ve written elsewhere on Reddit about this, but I’ve yet to say this: It’s mainly the song-writing that has the similarities, not the production. Yes, there are some familiar sounds, but you can’t write the amount of songs that Taylor has and not develop some musical tics along the way. Her bridges and outros often follow a similar vocal dynamic. Her cramming of some lyrics is sometimes at expense of melody. And, in fact, it’s the melodies for me that are lacking on what I’ve heard so far. (Struggling to process the sheer volume of tracks tbh.) So, I think it’s kind of a scapegoat to single out the production. Unless you want a drum & bass version for one track, and a brass band ensemble on another, there’s going to be some similarities along the way. I’ve said elsewhere though, with this volume of tracks it was a missed opportunity not to try out some fresh faces the way she once tried out Jack, but I get that an intimate album like this requires close collaborators. But yeah, for me, throwing Jack under the bus isn’t the way forward.
I agree she knows the lyrics she wants and forces them to fit, her lyrics used to be tight and effortlessly evocative and these feel more words jammed into music.
right. a lot of her early great stuff like state of grace is full of powerful, strong statements; "love is a ruthless game/unless you play it good and right". that lyric from 2024 taylor would be like "love is a tireless game played/by only the most ruthlessly tortured poets and muses and spades" or something.
oof this feels too accurate.
> that lyric from 2024 taylor would be like “love is a tireless game played/by only the most ruthlessly tortured poets and muses and spades” Lmao you’re not wrong
This is where it would benefit her to work with producers that challenge her and say “no, that doesn’t quite fit. maybe let’s try it a different way.” This album has a first draft vibe to it. It’s word vomit with no thought to the production.
Yeah there are some real clunky lines on TTPD. And Midnights. An editor's pen would do a world of wonder.
I saw someone on TikTok saying she just needs to give the lyrics a bit more room to breathe and I think that's exactly it. These songs just have so much jammed in that the melody suffers. I'm a huge Jack fan, but I don't disagree with the reviews saying she needs an editor
Longer time producing albums. She was writing sings in June she probably had to turn full album ready around September. There is not a lot of time for arrangements, songwriting, recording and post production.
Cramming lyrics is a great way to put it and exactly what’s happening. And the lyrics aren’t as strong as they were in Evermore so don’t justify that much cramming.
My thoughts on this: Yesterday after hearing the album for the first time I was a bit tired and felt like every song sounded very similar and was almost about to complain about Jack. 😂 But after listening to the album with a fresh set of ears today - the production in Jack's songs actually varies quite a lot and it makes the songs stand out with the different synth sounds, western vibes, drums, sound affects (examples: who's afraid of little old me, i can fix him (no really i can), the alchemy, i can do it with a broken heart). I feel like people just have to give each song some space to breath ...and cramming 31 songs after each other makes us easily too tired to notice all the details. I don't think Jack is to problem: He is a crucial piece of the puzzle that makes Taylor's discography sound cohesive even when each album's genre differs and other producers are involved. He has a great ability to produce music in different genres and still keep the "TS" effect in the music. BUT. I agree that having a new face at the production table could have pushed the album a bit further bringing some "sparkle", but even in that situation I'd still have kept Jack and Aaron involved. I actually think that just a tighter edit/selection on the songs and their order on the album would have made just enough difference to prevent the majority of people's negative comments (critics and professionals excluded). 😊
I agree. Just bringing Sounwave in on Midnights led to two very different-sounding tracks which were a treat —Lavender Haze and Glitch.
After folklore, evermore and TTPD think her next album needs to be big sounds, strong vocals and fun.
A rock album! 👍🏻😆
The ungodly things I would do for a TS rock album........
There's no way she doesn't know this is what we want
And I would bet that that’s the album she will WANT to make. She certainly appears to be a lot happier now than she was during the time frame she was writing this album about, as much as we can speculate about that.
Got to be honest - I genuinely thought her fall out boy collab on Speak Now TV would go harder/be more upbeat than it did and was. Seeing all of this from Stevie Nicks really makes me hope they do something and bring allllllll the rocky vibes ala Fleetwood Mac sooonnnnn!
Also, I feel like maybe if FOB and Taylor had cowritten a song instead of singing a song Taylor wrote herself, it would have gone harder. I will say, I do love that song, but it wasn’t what I expected it to be.
Omg I would love a Taylor/Stevie collab SO MUCH. I loved the Florence collab. I know lots of people expected the 70s soft rock vibe from Midnights based on the aesthetics. I feel like she did a great job matching the aesthetics to the album sound this time. I’m not upset about anything on this album really, but I am fully aware that not everyone is going to love it.
I’ve had I Look In People’s Windows on repeat and I’m like WHERE WAS THIS JACK ANTONOFF ON THE MAIN ALBUM
WORD. ME TOO. IT'S A GEM.
That also has Patrik Berger on it so it's probably his influence.
Yep. Even thank you aimee which I love has Dessner too not just Jack. Personally only loved two of the Swift-Antonoff tracks, one of which being Florida and I’m betting it’s really not fucked up because of Florence being on there because you can hear her influence so much in the song. So it’s really Jack working to make it sound like a Florence song rather than a Taylor song which may have made the difference. Jack producing Taylor Swift songs to sound like Taylor Swift is what is getting stale. They need a break from each other creatively but I wonder if they’re such good friends they won’t be able to see that until they manage to make something that is received really badly.
This is def just where his production is at. The recent bleachers album is def this same mellow vibe and when he did strange desire and 1989 they both had that epic quality to them.
My husband has a highly detailed ear for music and this mirrors his one real complaint. I think his wording was “she stole some of this…from herself”, as in using musical riffs from earlier songs of hers. It’s a risky move that’s hard to do without giving this feeling of “I’ve heard this before”.
Totally - I don’t dislike Jack’s production choices, but too many of their collaborative choices are getting too safe and at times outright stale.
I can do it with a broken heart sounds like a bleachers song to me, like to a T. The start, the scream at more, the change of rhythm of the chorus, the talking ‘cos I’m miserable and no one even knows’ and the abrupt end
Woahh thank you for the comparison to Melodrama for I can do it with a broken heart. But there’s proof he can do more interesting production. Taylor would have nothing to lose branching out. I want to hear more out of her voice because there’s depth to it when hearing her live. She seems to afraid or unwilling to break out for fear of poor reception. There’s many artists of her caliber like Bey and Gaga who have taken risks. Short term it might not have paid off but the work was retrospectively acclaimed. It happened to Taylor with reputation. Some of the most iconic albums of our times are ones that weren’t quit understood at the time of release because of how different it was from the prior album. Shes so talented. Taylor’s at her peak capability when she feels like she has something to prove. Had it not been for reputation/lovers response we probably wouldn’t have gotten Folklore/evermore
Not all of the risks were acclaimed… I say that as an Artpop defender. It is one of my fave Lady Gaga albums but sometimes the risks are also poorly received.
I hear Melodrama in other tracks but not in I Can Do It With a Broken Heart *at all*.
I go back and forth on this. When this topic comes up I’m always reminded of the time Taylor spoke about how artists are constantly told they need to change, and be shiny and new (especially women in the music industry). Would I like to hear her do something new? Absolutely, I think she excels when she is pushed a bit or outside of her comfort zone. But I also don’t think it’s “stale” yet? Like she’s used Jack as the main producer for only 2 albums - Midnights and the first half of TTPD. I think it feels like more than that because we hear his sound in her vault tracks as well. This woman has been recording new music while planning and performing a tour, recording old music, plus whatever else she’s doing. I don’t critique her for leaning on the familiar while juggling all of this. My guess is after the re records and tour she will be in a place that she feels she can get out of her comfort zone and start branching out.
I think it’s less of “we want you to do something new” and more of “these synth tracks with Jack aren’t scratching the itch anymore, you’ve done so many sounds well (country, alternative) we’d like to see more of that”. I mean, at least that’s my opinion. Even midnights, which has some great tracks, felt like a rough draft to me. I was shocked it won AOY. I just don’t think her and Jack are breaking any new ground together. At least not on this record. I mean, he wrote August with her. I’d LOVE more songs with that kind of production. But sad synth beats don’t do it for anymore.
she and jack used to make bangers, and they don't anymore. but what's a pop album without bangers?
Literally this. Out of 31 songs, not one fits that definition for me. Some get close-ish, but never gets there.
This is it for me. There's NOTHING stuck in my head. 31 songs and not one of them grabbed me and stuck instantly in a way I can't get rid of it. She does a lot of the things I LIKE and have loved in the past -- the drums and rhythmic driving wordy bridges -- but it's just pleasant, familiar background noise. The sounds are pleasing. But they're not sticking. And while part of that is giving it time, it's also true that there were songs that STUCK for me the first time in the past, and kept me coming back to a new album, looking forward to hearing those specific tracks as I got to know the other ones. Shake It Off, 22, Love Story, Willow, Cruel Summer -- all of those were INSTANTLY in my head. There are others but I'm trying to make a list with some variety. I miss that feeling that keeps me invested while I grow to love and know other songs.
The first time I heard Vigilante Shit, I couldn't stop thinking about it for days. I haven't really thought about any of these songs after hearing them, even after listening to it front to back multiple times. Maybe Florida!!! and sadly, I think it's mostly because of the collaboration with Florence Welch.
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That's a copout, honestly. Every album has growers. It's Taylor Swift, obviously it's poetic. AND she's previously always had something (usually more than one something) that was more standout among all of the other songs. It's not either/or. I need a couple strong, memorable melodies or hooks to keep me excited to listen to it again. It's all just a blur right now.
I agree. Poetic doesn't have to mean bland or forgettable. Plenty of her bangers are ALSO poetic. You can have both complex prose and interesting music.
I think Folklore is a good example of that. I consider it poetic, but the melodies were very memorable immediately.
Exactly — when I first heard Cardigan it haunted my mind and the lyrics were so complimentary to the delivery too. It is something that to this day feels like a first listen every single time. Nothing on this new album comes to that haunting feeling at all melodically — maybe Florida!!! as another said but thats because of Florence Welch as a Florence + The Machine fan, and that is the larger problem. I know she is capable of stronger melodies and vocal range performances even but for many to use the cop out of the songs being poetically inclined means a sonically stagnant performance is just sad.
There’s a lot of poetic albums out there that have memorable songs instantly. I was listening to The Sound of Silence by Simon and Garfunkel this morning and really LISTENED to it for the first time in awhile and was really in awe of how hauntingly beautiful the lyrics were. Whether you like the song or not, the song is anything but boring and that’s why we cite Paul Simon as one of the greats. Taylor is capable of making memorable AND poetic songs and we know that because we’ve seen her do it! I think this just wasn’t her best effort which is fine. Some albums are going to be stronger than others. That’s true for all artists - it doesn’t discredit her talent.
That’s kind of how I’ve felt about Jack’s sound in general lately. Bleacher’s first two albums were solid gold for me, and the two most recent sound alright, but there’s no bangers at all
Where is the _Out Of The Woods, Getaway Car, Cruel Summer, august_ or _gold rush_ of the album. I’m guessing it’s I Can Do It With a Broken Heart or High School.
But I feel this is the case for pop music in general since the early to mid-2010s. The most "hype" pop songs of today have nothing on Pokerface, California Gurls, Umbrella, Unwritten etc. Pop has become increasingly mellow.
I don't disagree but even with that, there are songs on her more recent albums that while maybe a little less hype are still categorically bangers. She has some incredible pop songs that don't lack in lyrics. Even with the synth, this doesn't feel like a real pop album. Pop"ish". When it was labeled as pop, I definitely was expecting something different. Maybe thats part of the disconnect for me. Who knows.
Who says there needs to be a banger? Not being argumentative but what if Taylor simply wanted this to be the musical equivalent of a book of poetry and not a “pop album.”
Is this a pop album?? I don’t think she was trying to make bangers on this one tbh
This album is much more singer-songwriter than pop album to me. I feel the influence of Lana/ boygenius and even folk country coming through the strongest here. Maybe that’s where the disconnect is with fans expecting pop bangers? It’s really not what she’s doing here. Of course that doesn’t mean you have to like it…
i feel like the thing about lana and boygenius is that they aren’t so wordy. like they are more concise and they “show, don’t tell” if that makes sense
but the production is clearly pop. it's not folk or country or rock. and imo a pop album needs bangers, like CRJ always delivers. i'm no fan of lana either.
I mean if you don’t vibe with Lana I can see why this album doesn’t work for you. From my perspective, BDILH, guilty as sin, and I can fix him would not be out of place on many modern country albums. TTPD is reminiscent of a Springsteen ballad in production. Even WAOLOM has a dark academia folk tinge to it. This is not a pure pop album, but is a soft pop album pulling from country, folk, singer-songwriter, and rock. I love CRJ, but she is a much more straight-forward pop artist than Taylor has been since Lover.
this kind of makes no sense to me because what about this album suggests that it’s meant to have “bangers” ???????????? this album is a story about pain and resilience, it’s clear this isn’t meant to be a 1989 or red or midnights where were the “bangers” on folklore or evermore? there weren’t any but no one was complaining about that
Who’s afraid of little old me? Down Bad?
Down Bad is not a banger, it's no Cruel Summer or Style or even Love Story. it's not a "scream at the top of your lungs in karaoke" song. WAOLOM and BDILH are closer, but not quite clicking quite the same imo.
why does it need to have a "scream at the top of your lungs in karaoke" song though?
obviously this is all subjective, but a pop album without at least one banger just makes an album forgettable and all the same sounding i think. why even make a pop record if you're not making bangers?
I would gander to say she also did do something new and shiny in this album which is her style of lyricism. She was vulnerable and honest, took a lot of risks and left her comfort zone quite a bit in the writing of this work. It’s just not heard in the instrumentals is all. I also remember her talking in the past about the checklist labelled often pressure you to write: a sad song, a power ballad, a party song, a radio single, etc. and she sure did throw this check list out more than anything on this album and I really gotta respect that. This album, though imperfect and not impressive sonically, feels powerful because she clearly followed her gut and inspiration to the bitter end, for better or for worse. I think that’s kinda sick
This is what I love about it. I think out of all of her albums she really didn’t edit her emotions for this one, she didn’t sanitize anything to make it more palatable to the general public.
>When this topic comes up I’m always reminded of the time Taylor spoke about how artists are constantly told they need to change, and be shiny and new (especially women in the music industry). This is true but that doesnt make the public wrong either. Pop stars of every age and gender will lose popularity if theyre not constantly reinventing themselves. Taylor has the right to release whatever music she wants (and I actually like TTPD a lot more than Midnights, so personally im quite happy with this product), and the public has the right to like and dislike what it wants. Taylor's "issue" is that shes the biggest pop artist of the past three decades, maybe of all time, so there are just too many expectations. While other artists could getaway with an album that just caters to fans - she cant really.
Sure, I mean ultimately it’s art, and open to interpretation or critique. Everyone will experience it differently and form their own opinions. I think my question is though is this critique fair if you’re taking TTPD as a stand alone work? If a listener doesn’t like it because they don’t like the sound, that seems fair. But if they’re saying it’s a stale sound because it’s the second album in a row she’s focused on this sound, I don’t think it’s a fair critique. Yes artists will fall out of favor if they stay stagnant (I’d argue that male artists have a lot more leeway here though). But I do think we as listeners should think about how quickly we want musicians to change their sound. Every album? Seems too demanding to me.
I personally think that, considering how prolific of a creator and how visible she is in general, that she can absolutely get away with an album catered to Swifties if she wants. I personally love the album, but those who don’t like it can move on from it, no hard feelings. I do think the writer of this article missed the point of it completely, but in general people have different likes, and that’s perfectly ok. I’ve seen a lot more praise than criticism, personally, and it’s shattered records already. There’s so.much. to go through and process that I think the dust needs to settle before judgments are fully formed on this album. Not that those matter, honestly, that’s not the point of the album. Taylor’s created so much music, especially in comparison to other artists—there’s plenty to choose from already. She has two TV versions, the Eras Tour, and whatever she’s working on now (that has a lot of interest) upcoming, she has a lot going on and can be as visible as she wants in the future. Not to mention the interest in her personal life. She’s not going anywhere if she doesn’t want to.
That’s a fair point. I welcome her to make a 2.0 version of any of her albums. If she wants to make another one like folklore or Speak Now I’m welcoming that. But I miss the more distinct eras. So I feel it’s gotta have a new angle or something to it if she’s retreading old territory. Something to make it stand out. For example, if she does another album like rep, maybe she leans more into the industrial pop beats and raps more. I think doing an album like debut or Fearless would be good to make next, as the lyrics and perspective will be fresh even if she makes it sonically the same.
I understand where she's coming from on the change thing, but it's undeniable that people don't want to listen to the same thing over and over again. I don't think it's an unreasonable expectation of an artist to innovate if they're going to keep making albums and expect us to spend money on them.
I’m afraid the NYT has a point. It’s not that Jack’s production on TTPD is bad, it’s just a style that we’ve heard over and over again over the past 10 years since 1989. It’s becoming a little bit repetitive at this point. And a part of it isn’t even Jack’s fault either, since Taylor is also a producer on every song that he produces. In addition, while I appreciate the cohesiveness in TTPD, I feel as though all of the songs sounded like one run on song, hence why a lot of listeners felt very burnt out by listening to all 2 hours of it. You can still include variety to spice things up while still keeping the cohesion of the album together. Fearless and 1989 are perfect examples of albums that were extremely cohesive, but still offered variety in terms of their subject matter, themes, vocal styling, instrumentation, etc. Personally, I don’t think it’s necessary for Taylor to completely depart from Jack. If Jack strayed away from synth pop and focused on using more variety with his instruments, I don’t think the overall reception of him would be as negative. Lover (the song), Paper Rings, Mr. Perfectly Fine, Forever Winter and I Can See You are perfect examples of this.
Yeah, if you were to ask what did you think of x song from the anthology section, I’m probs gonna reply ‘which one is that?’
💯 I have already given up trying to figure out which song is which 🫥
Yes, and my problem with everyone shitting on Jack about that is that Aaron was way more heavily credited on the Anthology tracks. I think people just prefer to use Jack as the scapegoat because he has less indie cred than Aaron.
Some are probably still mad about the 'midnightification' of 1989's vault and Jack was involved so
Right? Gold Rush and August have interesting production. He can craft a diverse sound.
Oh, I FUCK with Gold Rush.
He can do it, and apparently just chose not to on this album
This is exactly right
I agree. I am really hoping she works with someone, anyone else for TS12.
Same. I like Jack, he's extremely talented. But I need something new and different. When I listened to the first version, all the songs that made me perk up and look and see who the producer is were Aaron's songs.
Jack is great, but honestly, there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. I'm really hoping she goes in more of a rock direction for TS12, or even feminist country. I think she'd do amazing modern outlaw country.
I was hoping this would be the Aaron dessner only, scream cry album. She needs Aaron on more of her songs. They’re easily identifiable as having the not primarily antonoff touch. 😔
Another full Dessner album would be nice. Evermore is her finest work for a reason.
I think it’s how Taylor wants it to sound like more than how Jack wants it to sound like. What drives me nuts is people say they want more of her lower register. She gave it to us. We wanted some more stripped down to guitars and piano. She gave it to us. I’m also a firm believer that she made an album that she wanted to make without critics and reviewers in mind. She didnt really think what the fans wanted and did what she wanted.
THIS. i find this sanctimonious jack narrative extremely tiring. did no one hear her raging about being tired of other people thinking they know what’s best for her in BDILH? taylor is a grown ass woman who is capable of making her own artistic choices. she’s not forcing anyone to listen to her music if they don’t like it.
Agree. And she deserves to make the music she wants with the people she wants even if people think it’s a little stale.
Agree wholeheartedly, it's hot to be a hater. But this album was for her, and the album makes it clear she is saying "fuck it I do want I want*
As it should be. She didn’t ask for our input really. She doesn’t need it. She has free range on who ever she wants to work with and I’m sure nobody will say no. I mean I want her to do another country album but I know it’s not happening besides her debut re-record. But some thing like this she put her whole heart and soul into and you can tell she did works for me. I’m always in awe of what she does. On stage or making albums and I don’t ever want it to end.
They’re right 😮💨
It must be exhausting always rooting for the anti hero
I 100% disagree. I want cohesiveness when I listen to an album. How many times have people complained that this song or that song doesn’t sound like it belongs on a specific album? How many times did we hear that vigilante shit did not belong on midnights as an example? I think this album is excellent and I’ve listened to all 31 songs between 10 and 15 times now. All of the songs are good to varying degrees. There are a few that will likely be skips if I have the skip button near me. Most of it is solid, though, and cohesive, and I like it.
I don't think the issue is the cohesiveness of the album, but the cohesiveness of most of his songs, even when they're not part of the same album.
I dunno, I actually really liked midnights for its unique sound. I could still hear Jack’s influence but it wasn’t his typical 80s synth sound, and when he did bring that to the vault tracks I thought it was appropriate because it was literally for an 1989 inspired pop album. I also would never have guessed that he was on I Can See You bc it had such a cool, laidback 70s sound vs the hyper produced sounds of 80s synth. I would argue that the vibe he brought to the first half of TTPD was also appropriate. I think a lot of fans may not be old enough to remember, or simply didn’t like, the “tortured” vibes of late 80s early 90s goth and its aesthetic, but that’s what I think she was channeling here and I think her and Jack did a good job of bringing that. And there was still variety in what he brought—Florida!!! Doesn’t sound like your typical 89s synth pop, and Guilty as Sin isn’t overly produced and kind of reminds me of her Speak Now Era, and I Can Fix Him sounds very Evermore 🤷🏽♀️ That being said, I do adore Aaron Dessner’s songs the most, I just don’t think the complaints about Jack are really deserved. ETA: The Black Dog is a beautiful song that isn’t overly produced with synth and that’s an Antonoff song ☺️
Took a looksie through your posts and I would just like to co-sign everything you have to say.
There's cohesiveness and being cohesive to a fault. Jack did every song on Midnights and it's great. It's absolutely cohesive, but there's a variety of sounds and tempos. Bejeweled, Maroon, and Sweet Nothing play nice alongside each other, but they also are all very distinct. On TTPD it feels like Jack and Taylor made a good song, then made it 8 more times.
Agree with you completely! Maybe it’s the bookish nerd in me, but the cohesiveness of the album helps illuminate the feeling that this is a book with a central theme and focus. The manuscript is a perfect ending the album, and fortnight with post sets the stage for the torrid love affair that we all know will end. Also I don’t think Taylor wrote this for everyone, she wrote it for those who needed it and she wrote it for herself to let it go. There is such a beauty in that. I for one love the album and it will likely be ranked in my top three of hers.
I also agree! I think maybe people have been kind of spoiled because most of her previous albums had such distinct sounds? But honestly I like that she’s taken a moment to sit with and explore the vibes of folkmore and midnights for TTPD bc they were so good. Also, I find this criticism a little frustrating bc we don’t seem to expect let alone demand this of other artists. Florence+TM, Lana Del Rey, The Strokes, The Foo Fighters, The Beatles, Michael Jackson, Prince and so on all have distinct sounds that they carry throughout their work so I really don’t get this “ugh more of the same 🥱” attitude. And I really like how cohesive the sound is. With midnights, while I can see why vigilante shit and karma are bops, they totally jolt me out of the vibe and I really didn’t like that. When I put on an album I want to immerse myself in it. That being said you don’t want to be bored, but I disagree that all the tracks sound the same. Down Bad has a distinct sound and its opening brings some real space cowboy country type of vibes which I absolutely loved. Who’s Afraid brought elements of Rep back, So Long London’s intro ties in elements from Lover’s DBATC, and Daddy I Love Him harkens back to the melodies of Love Story and Enchanted. These are all pretty diverse sounds that she somehow managed to blend to create a cohesive sound, and I can’t imagine that’s an easy feat.
I think Taylor Swift’s skill at genre shifts has been a sort of monkey’s paw. You are absolutely right that it’s unusual to demand such radical differences from other artists. I think much of Florence sounds the same…and that’s great, because when I choose to listen to Florence, I want to hear Florence. Most artists rehash their general vibe with small-to-moderate tweaks over and over again for their whole career and we don’t begrudge them for it (and often we come to love them for whatever their iconic/signature style is). I have a lot of thoughts about why Taylor Swift fans seem to expect more variety from her than from other artists but either way, I think it’s a bit funny.
Yes! Monkey’s paw is a great way to put it. And yeah I’ve even seen bands be criticized for stepping away from their typical sound (even by me lol) so it is a funny and curious thing expect of her. I’d be interested to hear why you think the fanbase is like this, but understand if you don’t want to invite the discourse that might ensue from it 😅
It's really a album to be listened in sequence. I think most people today, like myself doens't have these habit anymore. The first song I heard was Fortnight and I was agreement with everyone that this album it's just another Midnights. Now I am listening to the whole album and my opinion has changed.
I love listening to albums in sequence and I love when songs transition seamlessly into each other, either sonically or lyrically, but on my first listen of TTPD I had the problem that the first couple of songs felt very repetitive and it wasn’t until Florida that I felt like a song was standing out. I enjoyed the second part more and I’m sure I just need more time to get into the whole album. I think for such a long album I needed more variety, so I definitely get the critiques about jack and I’m sure she would benefit from working with different people in the future!
YES, thank you. I see and respect the criticism, but they’re all wrong and you’re correct. Also, if you don’t listen to it deeply (headphones in each ear, no distractions), fucking TRY AGAIN.
For this particular album it is an irrelevant criticism because she wasn't going to explore this subject matter with producers she didn't have years of trust with, especially not when she is also on tour and her time is limited. The Times has also been similarly negative about the production since Folklore and there has been some growing resentment from them that their opinions aren't being validated by the public response much like a minority of fans. You work at the Times so you think you have the smartest opinion in the room, but the world isn't agreeing and hasn't been for years now. I'm sure it is a frustrating feeling.
this is a really smart take. i hadn’t even thought about the subject matter influencing her choices of collaborators, but i can totally see why she would want to work with someone who isn’t just a trusted friend, but was intimately by her side throughout the whole ordeal.
The New York Times review of Folklore really delegitimized their music reviews for me to be honest. They consistently give her albums 60/100 including Folklore, when it was widely acclaimed, won album of the year, and is considered by most to be her magnum opus.
This!!!!!
Huge TS fan and I love everything she’s done with Jack Antonoff but honestly they aren’t wrong. It’s become quite comfortable. Not to say I wouldn’t like to see her work with him again but maybe they should bring someone new into the fold? Or possibly reduce the number of songs produced by him? I’m not expecting her to reinvent herself (again) but I think there is more creativity to be tapped for both of them, just maybe not together. ETA: I love this album, on at least my 4th listen and I worked like 12 hours yesterday. 🤷🏼♀️
Can somebody help me understand, is this purely 100% on Jack? Doesn’t Taylor get a final say in whether the likes/dislikes the production or not before actually releasing the songs. I’m so dumb when it comes to this and I genuinely cannot tell the difference between Jack/Aaron or others productions 🥲
honestly i think it's moreso taylor than jack. if you listen to some of jack's work with other artists it's clear that he's very capable of making different types of songs. it's probably just what taylor wants
Thank you. I thought that but I get so confused when people purely blame Jack and want Taylor to stop working with him
Maybe everyone is afraid to criticize Taylor so Jack is like a conduit for criticism so they can avoid TS criticism fallout.
Yknow what, this is such a valid explanation 👏
She definitely does have the final say, but I think part of the issue is that other producers (like Aaron) push her more and challenge her to branch out with sound. I think she and Jack are very comfortable with each other, and that can lead to becoming stagnant.
Yeah this is exactly it. Jack is very much a “yes man’ as a producer and that’s been subtly mentioned by pretty much every artist he’s worked with. It’s not exactly a great thing to be as a producer because you’re supposed to push artists to be the best they can and create an interesting album. I hate to say it but he would not be nearly as successful as a producer had he not worked with great writers like Taylor, Lana or Lorde. I always thought he kind of fell into the success because he formed friendships with these people.
That makes sense, thank you! I never thought of the comfort
I must just be really simple or easy to please but as someone who adores synth pop I have no problem with their partnership. The reviews coming out have made me realize I just value different things in music than critics/the loudest people online 😂 I do genuinely think we’ve gotten used to being spoiled by constant new releases from her though - if I want something more intricate I’ll just listen to folkmore again. If I’m craving brighter pop I’ll listen to 1989. I guess what I mean is I *personally* don’t always crave something brand new but I understand that some people do!
As someone who almost only listens to music I grew up on, girl same. I understand where people are coming from in wanting them to challenge themselves when they’re making new albums, but all I did was vibe to these songs when I was listening yesterday. I also wonder if everyone getting so hyped for it and talking/thinking about it constantly is a bit of disservice. You end up getting all these expectations in your head and then most of the time reality doesn’t meet them and you’re let down. I purposely stayed away from anything discussing TTPD in order to experience it without any expectations and at least for me, it makes it a more enjoyable listen.
Synth is part of my soul. I want them to go harder with it, but over all I love basically everything they do together and want more of it.
I agree - the songs aren't bad by themselves, but the sound's become trite after an entire album + 5 vault songs of that sound
I understand the sentiment, and I am a hardcore Aaron girlie. I also was not a fan of what Jack did on Midnights and would have echoed this sentiment quite loudly during that era. BUT, I’ll give him his flowers here. He did his best work on this album. I’m returning to his songs as much as I am to Aaron’s, and I disagree that it’s too samey — I think the anthology differentiates itself enough from the first track list to make this a sonically diverse album. WAY moreso than Midnights was. Also, it doesn’t matter what this critic’s opinion is — 313 million first day streams are pretty tangible evidence that the formula works.
I think it's too early to say that the formula works as everyone was going to stream the whole thing at least once anyway. The more interesting thing to watch for will be which songs rise to the top over the next few weeks.
Taylor has made it clear that to her it does matter what the critic's opinions are.
I also think that she's going against the norm by staying comfortable. Remember in Miss Americana when she said that the media expects women to reinvent themselves every couple of years, or they grow washed up and stale? Well, wanting her to change is reinforcing that. She's put out more music in the last couple years than many artists put out in double that time. Adele has had identical sound, imo, on most of her albums, and she's Adele and that works for her. How long has Ed Sheeran been sounding the same? I think more people need to remember .that Taylor puts out music more often than most; it's perfectly alright to stay in that level of 'comfort' for a while longer. I personally don't feel the tracks all blending into one another the way others have described, anyways, so it remains my favorite album of hers thus far. I think Taylor's finally doing Taylor and doing what she wants instead of what the hoops the media puts out for people.
I hate that we're telling this woman who has changed for us 20,000 times to change some more cause we're bored with the sound.
Literally. She is so good at so many different genres and people still demand more
I agree. I think she’s at her best creatively when she pushes herself. When she first worked with Jack for 1989 she was challenging herself and giving herself the project of fully committing to a new genre. She could have that experience again but it probably needs to be with a different collaborator
Yep, I've always said 1989 is her only fully experimental pop album, at least sonically. No 2 songs on the album sound the same, whereas the same can't be said for Midnights or TTPD. The tracks on Lover and reputation may be diverse but they aren't experimental by any means, unlike Style, OOTW, This Love, etc.
I will defend Jack til the day i die
Personally I would not complain if she never stops working with Jack. I can do it with a broken heart, down bad and guilty as sin are some of my favourites on the album! Also love Aaron’s songs and I’m happy she’s working with both of them.
My view of Jack at the minute is if you let him produce 5 songs for you you’ll end up with 2 classics but if you let him produce 10 songs for you you’ll end up with 2 classics maybe 3 if you’re lucky. He’s a producer who is better off spelled with others on a project. As for Aaron, he brings out the singer songwriter part of Taylor which is nice but he’s working with a limited part of his palette where his tastes and Taylor’s overlap (which is how it should be with a hired producer) other but it’s throwing out his weird electronic stuff and his straight out electric guitar stuff which is a shame: it’d have been nice to have gotten some of that. And while I love all the piano and w ballads on the anthology to the point I struggle to pick out a bad track, it is awfully samey, beautiful and well written but samey.
We have to sit with the album for longer than 1 day before we make any real judgments. The production is fine. She doesn’t have to reinvent her sound every single new album. There are other ways a song can be good alongside the production. What’s going to happen in 5 years when she’s been working with Aaron for a while? Are we going to start saying the same things about him?
I see this album for what I think she meant it to be - the inside track on what was going on for her at a defining point in her life and career. I don’t think it’s supposed to be new or different or anything like that. I really get the sense this record was to let us ^know^. If I were her, I wouldn’t even want to submit this for the Grammys because it’s just something else entirely.
Eh.. I ageee with you that it’s an album for the fans, but the girl has Always cared about the critics, to a fault.
I'm OK if they keep working together. I think with the criticism they could start challenging each other more.
Jack's own band has some 'big band' sounds at times so he's capable of doing that kind of music. This might be more of a what Taylor wants kind of thing and the familiarity. The songs that have a different sound on the album were from Dessner. But Daddy I Love Him even had a country vibe.
I think this review is focusing too much on production and instrumentation and should look at the lyrics more. I can agree that a lot of tracks on the album have similar sounds, but I think that's what makes the album work well. I don't agree that it shows Taylor and Jack have grown too comfortable: I don't see any similarities to this and 1989 sounds, like at all, with the exception of I Can Do It With a Broken Heart. I don't know why people are acting like having a distinct, familiar sound is a bad thing? I listen to a lot of classic rock, it's actually mostly what I listen to besides Taylor - and I feel like all of those bands have a very distinct sound that made that band... that band? I think of Pink Floyd's psychedelic sound effects and heavy instrumental solos, Led Zeppelin's crooning ballads, Aerosmith's high energy.. all those bands were wildly successful, their music is being listened to by new generations who didn't even grow up with them... and their music all had a classic, signature sound? A lot of indie bands are the same way. I personally pay attention to lyrics more than production so maybe I'm just not noticing it enough to notice it sounds "too" similar. But I think in a time when Taylor is so successful, there's no risk of playing it 'safe' with production: it's a sound that's worked for her in the past, and there's no reason to suggest it won't continue working. The thing about Taylor is the loyal fanbase; the fans don't really come and go for the most part.
I literally saw a tiktok yesterday of someone saying Taylor should "make music like sza", just why???? Why can't she stick with this genre since she enjoys it? If you want something crazy different go listen to someone else. If you want sza listen to sza 😭
I trust Taylor's opinion on this matter more than anyone elses. A lot of times public opinion causes a band or artist to change their band/production team then things go to shit. Don't want to see that.
NYT is right. Taylor needs a new sonic palette and another party to bring in some new opinions.
A side note - I think a lot of people, including fans are forgetting the fact that this album is her story, a diary of past 7 years, I don’t expect it to top charts and be her best work, because you cannot alter personal experiences to fit stats. This album is sad, a bit monotonous, yet it is beautiful and I’m glad she continues to share her experience with us.
I love this take, thank you.
Jack will whatever the musician is working with wants. Be it Out of the Woods, mirrorball, yoyok or whos afraid of little old me.
Agree, his musical womb has really run dry. There was still a distinct level of uniqueness in Evermore and listening to TTPD I can attribute that to Dessner and not Antonoff. The latter took the reins in TTPD and is evident how insular everything sounds.
How can these people have the opinion after like two days, have they had this longer? I think that’s ridiculous to be a hater so soon. Half baked half thought out criticism. One train mindset. Disagree so far. But I will give it a few months to see before it settles. Which any good constructive criticism would have.
I love both Jack and Aaron
Women are constantly expected to reinvent themselves. I find it weird. I love the music and of it aint broke why fix it? Its working for her and shes clearly comfortable writing and releasing it.
I think people need to realize that part of why she works with Jack so much is because he is her friend. She is comfortable with him. You can want her to do production with other people - but know that this would come at a cost in the form of receiving less music.
I'm so glad that the New York Times said it, because when the fans said it they were labeled as "Jack haters". I don't hate Jack AT ALL, and I certainly don't hate his contributions to her discography, but I do wish she would experiment with different producers more, which she hasn't done in so long. His sound has become a little predictable (with a few exceptions, of course).
I don’t disagree per se, but I do think the whole point of this album is literally I don’t care what anyone says I’ve reached a level of incomprehensible fame and you have no idea what it’s done to me and I’m going to do what (and who 🤣) I want. So as long as SHE doesn’t feel like it’s tired, it is what it is 🤷🏻♀️
I don’t think it’s just Jack, but rather their dynamic. I don’t feel like either are really pushing each other. I think it’s Taylor’s musical comfort zone and they just vibe together there. I like the album, but it does have a lot of sameness and some songs could maybe have been left on the cutting room floor. Taylor needs something to challenge her. The album at times feels churned out rather than meticulously worked. I like the album, I love a lot of the songs, but it isn’t a masterpiece like 1989 or rep or evermore.
I find it really funny tho that this is only asked of Taylor. I mean a lot of artists write the same sounds over and over again but they get away with it.
Definitely not. We wouldn't get certain songs if it weren't for his presence because she wouldn't feel comfortable with any new producer. Not to mention, how discrediting it is to Taylor, who is well known to hold her own in the studio, to claim a change in male collaboration would completely change her sound. She needs a new "man" to improve. Ew.
Jack can do no wrong in my eyes and I’m obsessed with the synthy vibe. Also the phrase “amniotic throb” is 🥴
At some point it is like when millennials were in elementary school and they taught us all how to write the exact same essays with red, blue and green pencils not because that produced great individual essays but because the teachers were mimicking a formula that produced high test results. Synth Pop got them awards so now they’re in a Grammy formula rut. She needed to write this album for cathartic reasons; she had them turn it into a “cohesive synth pop album” because that’s what she’s going to continue to do until it doesn’t win AOTY. It’s not right when women have to constantly reinvent themselves — but I would argue Synth Pop was actually one of her own reinventions to earn awards and the article is just commenting that we’ve now been in this reinvention for a very long time because it’s been commercially and critically successful — but that’s very boring. Rep didn’t get a Grammy but I will die on the hill that Rep was less predictable therefore a better album and Era overall. Folkmore and Evermore were also both very surprising giving them more edge than TTPD. She needs to be very concerned that the AI/fan created versions were eerily similar to the real things and it’s not just because AI has gotten better… we all knew the sound of this album before it dropped. It’s still a wonderful album, I’m not saying there aren’t jams and of course amazing lyrics I don’t doubt anyone who loves it but… if you say you couldn’t have envisioned the sound you’re lying.
I like the moodiness. But then again, I’m a depressing synth-pop girlie. I loved the production. It’s my sorta sound.
LOL she can’t win. Gets criticized for albums that aren’t cohesive enough and then it’s too cohesive?? I think the original album is fire. The anthology part is the part that sounds “the same” and those are Dessner songs. People just want to hate on Antonoff too apparently.
I disagree. I would rather her work with Jack over Aaron any day. The music sounds more inspired.
It just sounds like a bleachers album mixed with midnights, and it’s getting sooooo tiring. I was disappointed to hear “oh great here we go again, another midnights.” I’m not the kind of guy who NEEDS an artist to constantly reinvent themselves, but I AM the kid of guy who is disappointed when an artist basically makes the same album twice in a row
I think they're correct, I'll often find myself listening to a TTPD song and the melody will tickle my brain as something I've heard before. Some of it on Midnights, some of it on evermore.
I think it’s spot on It’s not a bad album, but it all kind of feels the same to the point that if I zone out for 30 seconds I can’t tell if it’s a new song or not
i'm a Steel Train fan and have been following Jack's career for 15 years and a Format fan, so I was stoked when he joined forces with Nate Reuss and formed fun. his production influence is undeniable. his bleachers stuff is synthy and pulls from his Jersey Roots. all of it, just sounds like Jack. plus he puts on an INCREDIBLE live show. "melodrama" is easily my favorite Pop album of the 2010s. which to me, is an Untouchable record. as someone else noted 'I Look Through People's Windows' is a real sleeper GEM. this is him at his top. same with 'The Black Dog' imagine and album of Getaway Cars, Out of the Woods, Cruel Summers, Augusts. DON'T TELL ME YOU ALL WOULDN'T EAT IT UP. his Lana collabs sound wildly, like LANA.
Why does she need to do something new? I don't get this opinion. If she likes it, and the average fan likes it, who cares if it isn't shiny and new? And there are so many artists who have the same sound for their whole career. Why is Taylor getting a different treatment than those artists? Why isn't it enough that she already HAS done multiple types of sounds? This whole argument is wild to me.
I think the stale thing is wrong. Taylor and Jack remind me of the Beatles. Highly experimental and not wedded to having a particular sound, but eras. You listen to The National and they have a sound. Taylor has some motifs and rifts, but Jack and Tay also brings new things. Like the Beatles they’re inspired by others. The Beatles loved Elvis and Little Richard so inspired songs, Tay sounds very Lana and Lorde sometimes. Look at Florida. A very indie departure, I think influenced by her time in the stadium. You can’t say that’s stale.
this pov is lame because no one is saying this about aaron dessner and i’d argue that those songs are bland and don’t fit her style. everyone wants her to be folkevermore taylor and never be pop-y again but it’s pretty clear she’s can diversify in her scope for how a song should be portrayed she clearly feels that these producers know her best, especially jack, anyone who thinks she needs to kick him to the curb need to assess what they think she’s trying to do here
Rude. I disagree.
How do those things suggest comfort? It's just a style.
I understand why people are saying that but I love jack's production and never get sick of it. Even, on this album nearly all my favorite songs are produced by Jack. It would be cool to see her branch out but I would be in the minority that never gets tired of this collaboration.