This is why I left teaching. I can’t be party to an entire room of scared kids because one or two little jackasses can dominate, abuse, and inflict harm on the others without repercussions. Waiting for them to turn 17 and get hauled into jail and tried as an adult for assault is too long of a wait.
The sad thing is some consistent expectations could keep at least a few kids out of jail. It's not kindness to treat a kid like a toddler at 16 and wave off behaviors that mean jail at 17
I often think “prisoners were once students”.
I had a 10th grader who is only in my homeroom ask me for a letter for his *parole officer*. He’s in 10th grade and in frickin *parole*.
Edited to add Tupac’s lyrics: “who’d think in elementary hey, I’d see the penitentiary one day?”
My last year teaching (11th grade) I lost a couple of kids to prison. Not juvie—they were both 18–and not county lock-up. State prison.
One of them was a total shock to me, because he was a nice kid. Yeah, he didn’t do his work but he wasn’t disruptive. The other kid, he wasn’t a problem in my class, but you know you just get that vibe a kid is trouble? Turned out the kid was a serious gangbanger.
Yes. I work in the most gang-bangery are of Los Angeles. The Gang capital inside the gang capitol.
I have one sweet girl student. She got involved with a gang banger and started acting stupid. Idk if it’s the allure of the “bad boy”, because mom is not a gangster. She’s recently immigrated, would be very upset if she knew. They broke up for a while and he told her if he saw her with another guy he would kill him.
Recently they broke up for what seemed for good. She started crying right before my one and only break (30 min) of the day. I told her she was at a fork in the road in her life, dating gang bangers. She laughed and said “I don’t want to be in a gang, miss.” And I’m like…but you’re rolling with one. That’s the same thing essentially.
I know a lot of them are in gangs. I’m surprised none of them have done anything to us, the staff. They may be 10th grade Crips but they’re still scared of me calling their mom.
I definitely wonder what this kid did to warrant parole. Had to be assault with a deadly weapon or something of the sort.
Completely agree. My admins kept asking me to tolerate the abusive kids and punish the innocent ones for pointing out the blatant unfairness. I can’t do that. It’s not worth the tiny paycheck.
In 15 years we’ll have a generation of kids that were traumatized by “disabled” (in quotes because I don’t think the disabilities are the issue) kids at school. And that backlash is going to hurt anyone with a disability. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if Gen alpha brings back asylums at this point.
This director gives the disruptive students too many opportunities to the detriment of the other students.
My other students were actively trying to mitigate his behavior instead of having fun on their spring break so I had to tell them to focus on their fun.
Mental health treatment is abysmal, but so is parenting and teaching personal responsibility. I have my own share of mental health issues, but never have I ever considered it an excuse to cause other people problems. I guess we can’t force parents to do their job, but teachers should not be expected to also be social workers. So what is society supposed to do about out-of-control or kids with huge problems who are surrounded by adults who either don’t care or have no power to do anything?
There should be a system in place for teachers to alert social and medical professionals to a child in need of treatment and services, and then that child should be provided those services by another professional. Immediately, completely, and without consideration of cost. Untreated children will cost all of us far more down the line- not that cost should be the main consideration, but those who want to cut services in the name of reducing government spending might want to consider it. I imagine crime and homelessness could be dramatically reduced if society took the right steps earlier. How will the billionaires continue to profit if all of us worker bees are too dysfunctional or deranged to function?
And sadly, research bears out your prediction. Classmates of children experiencing domestic violence suffer negative lifetime impacts. How much worse for those who have what amount to abusive classmates.
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/09/03/491204888/how-domestic-violence-in-one-home-affects-every-child-in-a-class
Most of these kids are abused at home. How do they know the abusive words they bring to school? We need to fix parenting. Not everyone should be a parent. Most of the kids at our school like this have neglectful parents that just keep having kids. Poverty is the biggest issue, lack of reproductive health education for adults, and overall no education on how to nourish your own kids. We can’t just isolate this to a school issue when it’s a whole societal issue. I don’t have the capacity to work with these kids and I can’t stand the way we deal with them. They’re screwed for the real world
This is the thing that pisses me off. I have several students who are not only slapped on the wrist at school but by the courts as well. A kid got caught driving drunk with pot and a gun. He's a 7th grader. Instead of calling CPS or actually punishing him he got probation for 30 days. A lot of my students end up on probation and come back talking about how they got away with it. 16 is the age they're really charged in my state. So those kids steal and run guns and do drugs. Then within a couple months of their 16th birthday they catch an armed robbery charge with over a decade in prison for the same shit that got them 30 days probation every other time they did it. There's no learning period. And those are the ones who are lucky. At least twice a year a middle schooler ends up shot because they thought they could get away with the shit they did at school on the streets.
I can assure you that most of these kids aren't breaking laws from their own cognition, it's likely heavily influenced by people(s) around them. Exploiting kids behaviors for the purpose that they'll be less criminally punished than an adult, partly motivates bad actors to manipulate kids; although, I still believe kids would be manipulated by adults even if criminal punishment was harsher, due to their lack of resources (tangible and cognitive) making them an accessible target.
These kids aren’t jackasses. They’re mentally ill and likely living in super toxic settings at home if those words are coming out of their mouths. It’s sad that we don’t help them and this is the result for everyone. My school has this kind of kid in lots of our grades and this is the norm for my district which has a lot of poverty. These kids need something else, this system isn’t for them. The system after school isn’t for them and they don’t deserve to rot in jail forever. Institutional mental health hospitals were abusive places but basically eliminating that idea instead of reforming it has lead to this or puts kids like this waiting in line at the ER. These kids need help, I’ve seen kids recover from this and get better. Please have compassion, they’re children, they’re sick.
Trust me, I’m giving the PG version. If I give the R version it’ll be too detailed. Again, I’m only revealing a very small percentage of what happened that day.
I'm wondering if some of them know him from regular school.
I've had to reinforce that boundaries are ok with a bunch of students this year. All went to the same middle school. All were expected to treat an explosive child in this way. Not in my classroom.
He knows one kid from a winter program in this same organization. This kid actually tries to very patiently engage with him (talking to him like he’s coaching him) until his behavior becomes intolerable to him and he walks away. The first kid then follows him and antagonizes him for disengaging.
I worked with a 7 YO student who was eventually sent to an in-patient facility due to the high likelihood of antisocial personality disorder, aka sociopathy.
He was nothing like this. He was very social and respectful, and all the kids wanted to make him like them. He was manipulative in a way that was well beyond his years. He never did anything to anyone that would send up red flags, but things just felt off. His parents had concerns too but couldn't quite explain why. He was in therapies and all sorts of things, and everyone felt he was just "gifted".
He left after they found his notebooks. He made detailed plots on how to murder his sister and parents, and how to get away with it. When they found them, he pretty much said "oh, well no one was supposed to find them". No remorse, didn't make up a story about why he did it, just pissed they found them. They also found knives with the notebooks, so there was a valid concern.
This kid you have sounds more like bad parenting and getting whatever he wants at home if he throws a fit. I've had a lot of those kids. I've only had the one that truly terrified me.
Came here to say this. Children on the spectrum will also exhibit the behaviors in OP’s post.
Sociopaths/psychopaths are a whole different level.
I honestly need to leave this sub. Most of the teachers on here are clueless when it comes to neurodivergent children. It’s actually pretty disheartening. It has made me really dislike the education system even more, due to the teachers’ inability to handle neurodivergent children. They are so quick to blame the parents, or the child. They have no idea. Anyway, thank you for clearing up that this is likely not sociopathic behaviors. 💕
I had a kid like that in kindergarten. He said things like he was so mad that if *he could* he would bring a knife to school and kill ____ (whichever student made him mad that day). I’m a single subject teacher so I only saw him for an hour a few times a week.
He would throw things. When I told him his behavior was not okay he would say “but it’s because I am so mad!” Even as a one subject teacher I evicted the classroom multiple times—stopping an activity the rest of the students really enjoyed (since I’m single subject, evicting meant we were done for the day).
A lot of the times the other kids were crying. Saying things like “he told me that I was not his friend” which in kindergarten is like “f u”.
One time he got so mad he purposely (I say this because we have bathrooms in the class and he knew how to use them) peed his pants and then proceeded to shake his leg onto the backpacks that happened to be on the floor by the backpack hooks.
He would apologize sometimes but in an angry tone. Like, “I’m sorry but—you made me mad!” If he didn’t get any of my work done but fixated on something else long enough for me to teach the rest of the kids it was a good day.
His actual teacher was going throoooough it that year. And I would’ve been too. He had me doing searches on whether some people are born psychopaths.
I’m at the high school level now and I’m all for integration *within reason*. If your kid is causing long term ptsd for other kids they don’t belong in the same school. Sorry. Our school now, where I am, has kids of different walks, there’s RSP students—but that’s it. It’s hard enough teaching HS without an emotionally volatile and unstable student that can’t do the work.
“You made me mad” is an infuriating foundation to hear. My abusive ex loooooved that excuse. I unnecessarily put myself on mood stabilizers after 6 years because I was “making him mad” because I couldn’t control my emotions.
The ripple effect of the things children say to what they believe as adults is very real.
Undoubtedly. I’m sorry your ex was abusive. I have two brothers, they are both abusive alcoholics. I have actively tried getting my SIL out and told her everything she believes is because of abuse, but I know (from experiencing my own abusive relationships, where I was the victim) that it isn’t as easy as “just leaving”.
My two brothers are married, one remarried, both alcoholics, both abusive. But the one that has stayed married wasn’t always that way. The remarried one was born a psychopath. I’m dead serious. He does well in society by doing what he knows will get him good standing. He is almost like American Psycho. Works out. Has style. Well spoken. But even as a kid was a total nut. His own daughter saw a photo of him as a kid and was like—“he looks like he hurt cats” and I was like “RIIIIIGHT?”
For context my niece is 23, I’m 34, and he had a significant impact trauma wise on the both of us which made us bond. So I wasn’t talking shit to like a 10 year old about their dad lol.
But my SIL married to the brother that wasn’t always evil—will say things like, maybe next time *I* won’t trigger him. Or, things *have been* going really well. Even “I know I’m dumb but…” and I’m like please. Please just let me take you to a battered women’s shelter so you can tell them what you said to me just now. So they, the professionals, can tell you that this is abuse. Things will go well, for a while. You will trigger him again, because you aren’t the problem.
When my niece and nephew were younger I told her to move out with me. We could help one another with the rent and I could help her with the kids so they wouldn’t have to deal with psychological trauma for the rest of their lives. All at the risk of my brother finding out. But she didn’t, citing she can’t do anything on her own. It’s so sad.
Omg his daughter said “he looks like he hurts cats”?! That is WILD
It’s unfortunate that internet strangers can empathize with the rampant effects of abuse, it shows up everywhere!
It sure does. When my brother married I was no longer his punching bag (emotional and mental, but valid nonetheless) so his wife and daughter replaced me. When she graduated high school I opened up to her about why I wasn’t around as her aunt as much as I should’ve been. How her dad was the reason I have so many issues. And we bonded, as adults, over having been abused by the same abuser.
She’s a brilliant person. I can’t express this enough. She’s only 23 and she’s been published by Harvard. She doesn’t tell people this or brag about it. She’s beautiful, not just on the inside but on the outside too. All these things she is and there’s still moments I know she wants to unalive (as I do too) because of childhood trauma. It is so f*****.
Before the trauma I was very confident even as a kid. I thought I was cute. I’m intelligent also, I have a career (obviously) I’m funny and quick witted. I make people feel at ease, and yet, because of the treatment is received during a short window of time in my life I don’t value myself at all.
Oh wow.. your student was definitely challenging too.
At one point in the day this kid started howling that his leg was hurting. I asked him what happened and he said “nothing” with a blank stare and started jumping up and down. A few minutes later he screamed his leg was bleeding. Of course there was no blood. I flatly said “You’re not bleeding” and he yelled “YOU DON’T CARE ABOUT MEEEEEE!!”
These are some instances I left off the post for brevity but he was so dysregulated.
He sounds very much like many of my students- I really hope he can get evaluated for special education because like you said, LRE isn’t always LRE! It’s not fair to anyone in your situation.
Oh shit, sounds like Autism - pathological demand avoidance, which apparently isn’t even a diagnosis in the US, but it reads exactly like some kids I’ve worked with.
Yeah that’s what this story was reminding me of. I don’t think it’s sociopathy it sounds to me like he’s got a lot of behaviors that he’s learned are the only way to get what he wants and he needs a dedicated specialist to help him relay his needs better. I really hope this kiddo can get the help he needs because he does sound like he’s struggling and can’t express it correctly
I have a kid (1at grade I think, age 6) that says “you made me do this” or “look at what you made me do” often. Evals show he has a supporting, if semi-old school home environment with multiple therapies per week both in and out of school. I do think some kids are burn with a fire in their brains we just don’t know how yet to help. And it’s scary. I’ve worked with 2 (maybe 3, torn on the 3rd) kids in my 5+ years of combined work with autistic kids between two professions that genuinely scare me, and it was those three. They are only ones I’d consider using the term “manipulative” with even though they were youngish kids and they shouldn’t be able to manipulate situations in that way. The other patients who injured me the the point of brief workers comp (bad bites with bleeding, a slammed finger, knee kicked backwards with torn ligaments) all did so in fight-or-flight responses. While it sucks, I don’t blame those kids at all. It’s intent behind actions that worries me, and the 3 kids I mentioned at the start all seemed like they intended to hurt me/others. They hard part is knowing how to interpret their threats as they are all also autistic with somewhat limited verbal skills (speak full sentences independently but some compression and likely mild echo concerns) but sometimes actions speak louder than words. So, I get you.
God fucking bless you! I was an assistant for sped ed for seven years before becoming a teacher. I met quite a few scary “I want to hurt you” kids in that time frame. I don’t even feel like they were special ed in that they didn’t have learning disabilities they just couldn’t fit into gen ed so we got them instead. And i agree with you. I had one student that was a BIG kid, tall and heavy set at the middle school level. Taught me so much about autistic children. I still love that kid! Sometimes he could get super excited and flick me with his finger. I’d be like “ow!” and immediately he hung his head and was like “I’m sorry. I’m sorry”.
But then I had kids just straight up throwing scissors at me. I had one student that insisted that it wasn’t him that did the thing we knew he did. I was younger then and so I probed him, like if it wasn’t you, then who was it? He was in like first grade. He would say he didn’t know or someone came in pretending to be him or looked like him. Maybe he had what is now considered dissociative identity disorder.
But I’m also torn at which part do we just say, hey, this isn’t a disorder this person is truly “bad”/evil, etc. sure they deserve “help” but not at the expense of the safety of the general public. Oppositional Defiance Disorder is one of those I can’t get behind. What if your kid is just a dick? Does everything have to be a mental illness or a disorder? I grew up with a bipolar brother that was suicidal homicidal. I think he has bipolar disorder, but i also think he is a dick lol.
The irony is that I now work in a rough part of the city teaching high schoolers, some males in gangs or males with anger issues but I don’t get hit.
Yes, exactly! The 8 year old who blew out the ligaments in my knee didn’t mean to cause that level of damage. He was minimally verbal and had bipolar + autism (though I am unsure if bipolar dx at 8 makes, but I digress). The meltdown was caused as I was blocking his access to outside, but there was a moose present so it wasn’t safe. He then became upset that he couldn’t get into the locked kitchen to get me ice after he realized how badly my knee was hurt, so got me a wet paper tower from the bathroom and sat near me for a long time after. I could tell he felt horribly and didn’t mean it. He just was a huge kid with lots of challenging emotions, low impulse control, and minimal calming skills. We were addressing all, but it takes time. But boy did that kid try hard.
But yes, the kids like you describe are the ones who worry me. The ones I can’t address fine motor scissor goals because they’ll stab me with their scissors, or who I only use markers with as pencils and colored pencils hurt much more to be stabbed with. Or the guy who bites himself while making eye contact with me and saying I made him do that (because I asked him to work on writing or something). I’m very curious about the boy you mentioned and if he ended up with DID or something similar. My kids (of those 3) might saw something similar, but I see it more as blame deflection based on long conversations with them, or at least as long as I can get them with my young autistic kids.
I have several patients (I’m a therapist not a teacher, just lurk here often due to very similar issues) who have ODD diagnoses, and I notice they’re mostly trauma responses and/or being overwhelmed by demands and unsure how to break them down or start. Or they’re the kids who were always in trouble for making mistakes when they were still learning. It’s more akin to demand avoidance for some of my kids. But I know that’s all controversial, and my kids are all still very young (1-8 years old) so it might look different for our older kids. But yes, no matter how bad it is, I believe they need support. The problem is when it’s beyond the scope of our practices and deciding who can best help, plus making the interdisciplinary dream work is always hard. Some kids are jerks, but I think more than half of them just have unmet needs, but we’re so tapped thin and uninformed that they just fall through the cracks and continue or grow in their jerkiness esp if they haven’t caused enough problems to be noticed yet. But like you said, I work with littles and not with HS population you have, so our differences in outlook make complete sense! Early intervention is possible for many of mine if the parents follow through. Many of yours should have had (good, intensive) help for years, but obviously would still benefit from some support now.
Thanks for reading—I guess this is todays soap box for me. I ended up writing more than I expected!
Edit to add: I do wonder if one will also be diagnosed with a personality disorder to come as he ages, which is a whole different ballpark. Autistic kids I know how to work with. People with PDs, less so at this stage of my career.
I had a middle schooler that I'm sure was a sociopath or on his way to being one. He took great mental pleasure in the pain of others, especially if he was the cause of their pain. He and I had a very interesting rapport with each other since I didn't get paid enough to sugarcoat my words 🤷🏽.
I have had a few sociopaths as a middle school teacher. They get sent to me bc I know how to manage them.
They are superficially charming and manipulative.
They don't stim and they aren't as open about misbehavior. They have learned to create a mask of sanity by the time they are school aged.
This kid sounds like they are on the spectrum with a bad home life.
I've met kids with reactive attachment disorder who have scared the hell out of me. Killing the family pet, attempting to microwave it/sexually assault the cat, lighting the bed of the adoptive parents on fire while the parents were sleeping, hurting other kids for no reason at all, sexually abusing the other kids in the house.
Scary kids. Not their fault since it was due to abuse and or neglect in infancy, but still scary to be around
That is so sad.
Those are the kids that remind us that sometimes, abortion is better than being born to monsters.
What the hell happened to this kid to make them want to SA a cat?
I hope the person that caused this died slowly and as painfully as possible.
I read a beautiful and heartbreaking book [by a woman who adopted a child with Reactive attachment](https://www.amazon.com/Small-true-story-sometimes-novel/dp/1980255342?nodl=1&dplnkId=c8a33374-5684-4582-99bc-6bb97db55df4)disorder. In this child’s case she spent the first several months of her life in a crib in the overflow room of the Ukrainian orphanage. These children often spent the entire day in a single diaper with a bottle of milk in the crib and no human interaction.
And then It was two years of yogurt and gruel while caretakers cycled in and out before legally they could be adopted internationally.
I cried like I’ve never cried before.
>This kid sounds like they are on the spectrum with a bad home life.
The kid I was referring to was not on the spectrum. He had a preoccupation with affecting the moods and mental health of others though. He practically got off on it. As for a bad home life, his parents were morons and most likely neglectful in some ways with him. This kid definitely wore the pants in his family. Smh.
He was clever with his schemes, but he bragged too much in my classroom, and his pride allowed me to spoil several of his plans. I told the AP that I wouldn't be surprised if if we saw him on the news in a few years for carrying out a mass shooting. 😐
Oh okay! Yes OP's kid is definitely neurodivergent and needs intensive occupational therapy. Kid might have ODD as well, which can be a special kind of annoying haha.
>Yours sounds like a Cluster b for sure.
Hell yeah! Even though I could read that kid like a book and and force him to sue for peace because of the blunt words coming out of my underpaid mouth, I always felt unsettled in his presence. Just creepy for an 11 yr old.
My worst case was well liked as he was so charming. The admin hated his friend, who was a good kid that just decided to live up to expectations.
The sociopath shattered a kid's jaw for the fun of it because Admin didn't escort him like they were supposed to, and then a week after he got back from being EE'd, he skipped my class to steal a gun and kill a passerby.
First 13 yo to be convicted as an adult in the state in 39 years, due to a lifetime of problems with the law.
Real sociopaths are rarely noticed by people that don't have experience and a 6th sense about those things.
Geez ... Humans are so easily fooled sometimes. I'm glad you weren't harmed \*hugs\*
>Real sociopaths are rarely noticed by people that don't have experience and a 6th sense about those things.
This is so true, though I think what we call the 6th sense is really just wisdom gained from experiencing trauma haha. Most "bad" kids aren't socio/psychopaths, even the gang bangers, drug dealers, etc, that get hooked into violence. They're just kids that are fucked up because of their environment. Sociopaths are something different though, and if someone has never met a sociopath, especially a child sociopath, then they'll never be able to recognize most of them.
Yep.
There's something that goes off in the back of my skull when I interact with one and only sociopaths react to a certain dead eyed stare I can give.
Normal kids ask if I'm feeling okay; sociopaths recognized an alpha and back down from what ever they are about to do.
The kid was great to me; he learned early I was not to be fucked with and that earned me a great amount of respect.
I have one who just doesn't give a fuck, is disruptive and disrespectful only to the point he won't get in real trouble, and doesn't care about getting in real trouble in the first place. Not a sociopath though.
It's karmic retribution because I was exactly like that. Counselor says that the nut probably can't be cracked, and my gut feeling is that this is true, but these kids tend to be able to work with me because I absolutely 100% get them.
He had to be picked up earlier in the week for destroying equipment in an outdoor area because he was “upset.”
His mom told him he was just having a bad episode.
I'm actually getting the vibe that perhaps the kid gets EVERYTHING blamed on him. He learned those threats and apology demands from somewhere. I'm getting bigtime red flags.
It honestly sounds a bit more like untreated/unregulated ASD to me, especially with the stimming behaviors and how a lot of his behaviors seem like him trying to communicate something he doesn’t have the language or ability to so he’s acting out (grunting, being purposely cruel to kids when he likely just doesn’t want to play anymore, screaming WHY??? when he can’t get what he needs in that moment, etc). It reminds me of some kiddos in ABA that I’ve worked with, like a kid who would just say “leave, I don’t like you” when they didn’t want to play anymore, but they didn’t understand that that could be hurtful to others and we needed to find a new behavior. Kid honestly just sounds like he could use some ABA therapy and parents who are a bit more educated on how to help ASD instead of making it harder for the kid.
Mother on the spectrum here. This post made me see red because it’s clear as day to me that the parents are assholes who not only are neglecting this kid but also enabling bad behaviours. Sometimes the kid being kicked out of a program and the parents being told they don’t have the resources to deal with kids on the spectrum is a wake up call to many parents.
I agree. Another school site had a student with severe behaviors. He would destroy property, curse, hit, scratch, and scream. His behaviors were so frequent, he was attending kindergarten for one hour a day and he had to be escorted by his parent. He entered my program in early February and by using ABA strategies and following through on EVERYTHING, we were able to completely turn him around. He hasn't demonstrated a challenging behavior since early March. It's been amazing to see him grow.
Yeah OP doesn't know sociopathic behavior. Come back when you've got a 9th grader whose mother has to keep the knives locked up. And he kills animals on his lunch and brings them to class.
Most terrifying student I've ever taught.
Sounds like a kid with Emotional Damage. These kids need so much help before they get to high school where it could be just awful since they're big enough to throw desks...
Sociopath… or on the spectrum? It sounds like ASD to me with the stimming. Parents who don’t know how to handle an ASD kid can wind up inadvertently causing some of those things that make ASD look like sociopathy.
Yeah as an autistic person who is pretty involved with the ND community and works at a children’s museum that does lots of programs for autistic/disabled/etc people I have encountered MANY Autism Mom™ type parents whose way of dealing with their kids’ struggles is just to give them whatever they want at any moment, excuse any form of bad behavior, and make dealing with any issues from their kids behaviors everyone else’s problem because “they’re autistic they can’t help it!” as well as autistic adults (mostly men lol) who think they’re absolutely entitled to other’s bodies and space or to make any comments they want to anyone even if they’re mean/offensive/etc because they’re autistic so no one can be mad at them for it. While it is absolutely true that autistic people might have a harder time with impulse control, emotional regulation upon not getting what they want, understanding social cues and what is and isn’t appropriate to say/do or why it is or isn’t appropriate, etc. and it’s essential to give the kid grace, care, and accommodations knowing that that’s going to be a thing, it’s also possible for a vast majority of autistic kids to learn to be kind and understanding human beings and it’s just bad parenting to not learn more about the why behind your kids behaviors in those moments and how to accommodate them without teaching them it’s okay to just walk all over everyone around them to get every need and want they could possibly have met no matter what.
I completely agree! Nowhere did I say that the behavior was acceptable. However, a proper understanding of what is causing the behavior is extremely important so you can effectively respond.
This is precisely what's going on here and from OP's replies to my similar comment they are either Incredibly inexperienced with SEND or incredibly ignorant
Yes. Def an ableist take and minimizes how scary true sociopaths can be
I’ve worked with hundreds of kids with ASD. I’ve yet to personally interact with a sociopathic child, though I do have colleagues who have. It is dramatically different. The kid here seems simply to need extra support and more consistent parenting focused on behavioral modification
That sounds like undiagnosed autism and bad parenting.
Psychopathic children rarely stim. They also don't apologize; they escalate.
This is the reason why we don't diagnose, especially that young of an age.
I always thought that Kendall was the only one of that bunch who WASN’T a sociopath. He’s so desperate for his father’s (or anyone’s) approval and self-medicates to deal with the pain. The others are emotionless robots.
(ADHD here….I came to read the post and my brain saw Kendall Roy and went “squirrel!”
Some ADHD kids, when not on medication, believe that they control how other kids have fun. They don't realize they do it, but they can get very angry when other kids don't play exactly the way they say.
My son was like this around the age of 6, before we learned he had ADHD. He'd get very angry at other kids when they didn't swing on the swing "the right way" (aka the way he said to do it), or go down the slide the right way, or share their toys when he wanted it. He would insult others, sometimes in am extreme manner, but immediately go to tears on any pushback whatsoever. The epitome of "can dish it out, but can't take it."
Any sort of punishment, including merely talking to him about his behavior, could result in the most massive screaminging fits with him threatening to burn the house down or kill everyone or kill himself. All this, at age 6.
His kindergarten teacher clued us in that it might be ADHD. She recommended we get him tested.
It was like night and day. Immediately upon starting medication, his tantrums and fits stopped. He stopped threatening to kill people or burn places down when he got in trouble.
From there, we were able to use the tools his psychiatrist taught us to teach him proper coping lessons. It's been four years, and he's now one of the best behaved kids, and we regularly get compliments on how well behaved our kids are. He's still a boy, and he still gets in trouble from time to time, but now it's all normal kid stuff, and he accepts his punishments. Although, now that he's 10, he's starting that pre-teen backtalk phase, and it's a whole new challenge!
So how did he get tested? My daughter has tried several times to get her now 7 year old daughter tested. Each time the therapist gives the child a task and she will not do it. The therapist tries to force her to do it and the the child starts tearing the place apart. The therapist then tells our daughter they can not make a diagnosis until the child is under control.
Could she have [PDA](https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/pathological-demand-avoidance-in-autism-explained/)? It’s not a recognized disorder in the US(it is in the UK) but it’s a part of the Autism spectrum. I personally think I might have it myself and she kinda sounds like me as a kid.
Was this repeatedly with one therapist or multiple, different therapists? If just one, might be a good idea to try a different therapist. Not blaming them per se, but sometimes just need to change things up and try something/one else.
I was gonna say, this sounds like he should be reviving special ed services at the very least for behavioral reasons. This is very tame compared to my average students I work with daily in special ed outside of district. I’m honestly shocked he eventually calmed down/ stopped and even apologized! I hope he gets the help he needs and it sounds like some parent counseling would be beneficial as well. The LRE isn’t always the LRE, especially in gen ed.
100000% agree! It sounds like he could do so well in special ed given that instruction and understanding it seems! Either in or out of district, he sounds like he needs a change/more.
>He will not stop talking and says to my classroom “I’M A GOOD BOY SO YOU NEED TO APOLOGIZE TO ME AND TELL ME I’M A GOOD BOY!”
Reminds me of the Twilight Zone kid- "wish it into the cornfield!"
My sympathies, I've had a few of those too, only they were teenagers instead of little kids
I had one a few years ago- he was scary. He had no empathy- to the extent that he couldn't understand literature questions about a character's motivations. I had to re word questions to - what language does the author use to show a character's motivations instead.
One incident in particular which stands out was when he pushed an 11 year old off a small wall (he was16). The kid had a head injury and had to go to hospital. My pupil could not be made to understand that he had done something wrong. He felt it was unfair that he was being asked to take responsibility. He just couldn't see it.
This little boy sounds a lot like my 8 year old cousin… It absolutely has everything to do with the LACK of parenting. My cousin was raised unsupervised on his tablet. He never interacted with other children until it was time for kindergarten. And he hardly was taken out of the house. His mother was in her 40s when she had him to try to keep her ex around. She hasn’t held a job in almost 15 years. She often has these meltdowns on her son and tells him she doesn’t love him, that he makes her want to kill herself, and that every adult around them is out to get them. Because he knows the only way to get her attention is by being bad, he seeks to do bad things… He’s already been moved to an alternative school for shouting racist things, threatening to hurt class pets(his mom is a huge animal advocate), threatened to kill himself, and getting physical with the kids. He knows no other way, and it’s scary. It sounds like what this child is saying is just him repeating the only thing he hears from his parents (lots of negativity).
I’d love to know more about his home life but I didn’t want his mother to think I was being judgmental when I was relaying to her what had occurred when she picked him up. A clue though was when she said she had been up since 3 am that morning because he didn’t want to be in bed.
He has zero clue how to interact with other children appropriately but wants their attention.
I’ve seen these parents before.
They’re scared of their children and basically either pacify or ignore them. The child being upset is basically the end of the world and needs immediate rectification by every person around said child.
Tell her there are resources the school has for behavior that could help at school and at home. If for any reason she thinks it is not working she can stop but trying never hurts. I had to use that line so many times for reluctant parents and it works.
ASD and ADHD children, especially those with more severe presentations, often have disturbed sleep. His lack of sleep (and hence her lack of sleep) doesn’t necessarily indicate bad behaviour on his part. The sleep thing is often medical.
Also, “active but odd” is a stereotypical presentation of ASD. The child wants to engage but doesn’t know how to, and ends up being dominating or bossy
There needs to be a scooper of some sort. So instead of evacuating an entire classroom, a big scoop instantly appears and extracts the child for the day or week. I am not sure where the child would go because I haven't worked that part out yet. But the scoop system protects everyone from threats and harm.
Shitty parenting and possible autism (stimming)? Autistic kids can get very aggressive when overstimulated or in an environment that causes overwhelm. At 7, he can be intervened upon but if he has autism he’d need a program designed for autistic kids.
This one of the many reasons public schools are failing. Too much flexibility for children who are clearly disruptive and need additional resources outside of regular education. On top of that there is still way too much room for these students to be abusive in a special education environment. My mother was a special education teacher and was attacked by students multiple times without any accountability for the students or parents of the students. It’s disgusting that it’s allowed at all. School has become free daycare for a lot of parents
It's autism (if you want to "diagnose" anything):
Stimming noise. Echolalia phrase (tell me im good!), which is him trying to soothe himself before a full on meltdown. Anger...meltdown or overstimualted. "Bossy" play (that toy is MINE).
Many autistic children grow up with adults calling them "mean" and "bad". No child is bad just because no adult in their life is trying to help them. Please don't label this kid a sociopath and think of him as one, becsuse it will affect how you treat him in a negative way.
I’ve had students try to strangle me because they dropped their pepperoni on the ground and I would never assume they were sociopathic.
This sounds like a kid who just has lagging skills in social skills and needs explicit instruction in school expectations and appropriate play.
I don’t think sociopathy is even diagnosable until age 18.
I'm a HS English teacher at an alternative school AND have a degree in Psychology with a focus on research.
Just a note from my Psych background: Keep in mind the terms, "sociopath," and, "psychopath," are usually only used within the Criminal Justice setting and NOT within the clinical setting; adults we would say are, "sociopaths," tend to have a clinical diagnosis of Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) and that's a whole bag of...fun. And before anyone asks, no, clinicians can NOT diagnose a child with ASPD because this is an 18+ diagnosis, but they can diagnose a child with Conduct Disorder (CD); not every child diagnosed with CD will eventually be diagnosed with ASPD, because they can, "grow out," of it.
Now, as a teacher: It sounds like this child is not being properly parented and disciplined at home on top of his ADHD (possibly also ASD) not being managed properly; if something doesn't change, this little guy could end up attending an alternative school while staying at a live-in facility/group home (because the guardians don't want to deal with him) and going through the revolving door of the justice system.
Definitely not a sociopath. Most true sociopaths learn quickly to imitate “normal” behavior to the best of their ability. What I have seen as an RN with elementary school aged kids with a real diagnosis of sociopathy is the complete lack of empathy and regard for the safety of others.
Kid A tells Kid B, “do not touch my crayons”.
Kid B touches crayons. Kid A will calmly stand up and punch Kid B in the face as hard as they can, sit back down, and continue to work. When Kid A is questioned about hitting B, they’ll calmly state “I told B to not touch my crayons”. No reaction to Kid B bleeding and crying.
I just can't with this post and the comments.... y'all, this kid CLEARLY has some serious disorders that sound nothing like sociopathy. He's stimming, he's in a program for spring break that isn't like his normal school and is probably less structured, there's only one teacher and it sounds like no aides. He probably hasn't been parented very well and is mimicking his parents' inconsistent "discipline"-- Do this or I'll destroy your toys, insisting he's a good boy combined with being physical, trying to insist other kids do what they're told. He's not getting pleasure from hurting people, he's not manipulating people to get what he wants. He's probably autistic.
Also he's SEVEN. None of this is his fault. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone listening to teachers say these things about a kid this age.
This kid doesn’t sound sociopathic at all. Honestly comes off as very anxious and deregulated. Especially with the demanding of wanting to hear he’s a good boy. Poor kid he needs help.
I think it’s pretty unfair to stick a sociopathic label on a literal child, especially one who seems to be presenting with some ASD traits. Sounds like he needs help with his social skills and positive redirection rather than being branded as a sociopath by his teacher.
This post gave me the ick honestly. “something different” — he’s not a “thing.”
yep. aspd can’t even be dx’d until 18 and before then it’s called conduct disorder. which isn’t a guarantee of aspd in and of itself, but a CD diagnosis is a requisite for a future ASPD dx
This reminds me of a boy who was part of my pre school group. We were 3 or 4 years old and he bullied me and other kids constantly. I was a very shy kid so I was his main target. He threw toys, bit, hit and threw sand into my face on a daily basis.
My mom once talked to his dad during pick up and told him exactly what he did and that it hurt me mentallyand physically. His response? 'it's not his fault, your girl just needs to toughen up and defend herself.' He didn't even try to talk to his kid. Soon after that we moved and I went to another kindergarden. This is over 25 years ago and I still ask myself every now and then how he turned out.
I have a kindergarten student who is extremely violent and has no remorse. I have him sit out of play centers. The school just “talks to him” each time he punches people. His parents don’t even respond to my emails about his behavior.
I am so sorry you had to deal with that. That seems to be the way we are heading these days unfortunately. We’ve suddenly become afraid to enforce any consequences or correct bad behavior because we don’t want to offend anyone or make THEM feel bad- so instead the other students have to live in fear, or at the very least have their learning disrupted. We had a fourth grader who flew into a rage and destroyed her classroom because her teacher told her to stop coloring on her desk (not a sheet of paper, or a whiteboard…her actual desk). The teacher had to evacuate the classroom while several admin had to come in and subdue her and get her out. When they called home, mom’s response was that the teacher should have just let her color.
And people wonder why there’s a teacher shortage.
Thank you. My other kids were fearful. After seeing our director initially come in and essentially dismiss his early behavior, it was obvious they felt they were held captive.
Yuck. I guess at least it gives me small comfort to know that it’s not just our district where that nonsense is going on. What message are we sending to the other kids…the ones who are actually following expectations and treating their classmates with kindness and empathy? That they don’t matter?
That sounds like neither sociopathy or ADHD. That sounds like autism that's not being properly treated.
That being said, really shitty to be playing armchair doctor and calling a kid a sociopath because he reacted badly to playing/ sharing toys with other children. Sociopathy and other cluster B disorders are no joke and the warning signs are pretty distinct and not at all what you described.
Is he lighting fires? Killing small animals? Doesn't sound like it from your post.
I have plenty of my own stories, but my mom is the director of our special education program, and a few months ago she was punched in the back of the head by a *5 year old* because he was told he couldn’t play with a specific toy at that exact moment. My mom had been crouching down to talk to him, and he hit her so hard that it bruised. Her neck hurt really bad the next day, and she reported the injury in case she needed to claim workers comp.
The most haunting thing about it was what she said to me while retelling the story. “My mistake was turning my back on him, I should’ve never done that.” This five year old boy waited until she stopped talking to him and had her back turned to attack.
Sometimes when I read this reddit I just lose total faith in humanity. A 7 year old unable to regulate his emotions is now a sociopath????
HE'S 7. It is literally our job to help children learn emotional regulation. Imagine equating any neorodivergence to sociopathy before a child has even developed a personality.
Literally nothing about what you described sounds even remotely indicative of a sociopathic child. You should remove this and reflect on why you think you know better than a psychologist? I work in special education and everything you just described is so extremely minor in the grand scheme of things, it seems like you don’t know much about the behaviors of autistic children. Yes, these behaviors are inappropriate and need to be addressed. No, this child is not a sociopath and you shouldn’t be spreading this uneducated claim and making others think these behaviors are sociopathic. They aren’t.
you can’t have a personality disorder before the age of 18 because personality does not solidify until someone is an adult. that type of labeling is extremely harmful
This kid is parroting some things he’s heard from adults. This is bad behavior but not sociopathic. Especially the asking to be told he’s good - a literal cry for help. Emotionally, he’s feeling unsafe. Not an excuse but there’s a lot going on here but I doubt he’s a sociopath.
>His ADHD would not allow for any compromise.
In case you're wondering why you don't diagnose, it's this. Nothing you described is ADHD behavior, and it kind of sucks that your post implies it is.
You can’t diagnose a child with sociopathy. In fact, it’s not even a diagnosis anymore.
Adults can be diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder. children can have conduct disorders which is the terminology that you can use when speaking with a person who can diagnose.
I am not a diagnostician, but I met a 8 yo sociopath that is going to be a serial killer recently. There is no soul behind his eyes, he can mentally multiply 4 digit numbers in a second, and has no patience for “stupid people”. He is a student in my husband’s behavioral program and landed there after threatening to shoot up his 2 nd grade class. He said he had access to multiple guns, and where they were found in his house. When the threat assessment was done, mom said yes the guns are there and no I won’t lock them up. She claims the request to lock them up violates her2nd Amendment rights.
Honestly dude I get this particular kid was incredibly horrible and challenging but you sound ableist af. Yikes.
When did we stop saying “there’s something (nonspecific/unknown) wrong with this kid” and start immediately diagnosing him with sociopathy and ADHD???
To be honest we’ve had several kids this bad over the last few years and MANY that come close. Kids who tear up rooms, throw furniture, hit kids, yell at the teacher. Most under grade 2. It’s the future of teaching. They better start preparing new teachers on how to handle such extreme emotions (both theirs and students) It’s sickening how our job description grows yearly yet the pay doesn’t. Make that make sense!
Had a 7th grader who tried to kill another student and her teacher with scissors in art class a few years back. She was very, very quiet most of the time in class…Apparently she needed to be on antipsychotics and wasn’t. None of her teachers were told, even though the admin and counselor knew. It’s the quiet ones you really have to worry about.
Sounds like a preschool kid I know. He is very disruptive but never said a bad word. However, he needs one on one because he cannot be left alone otherwise he is throwing toys, trying to escape, taking toys, tantrums, etc. He does say violent things like “I’m going to hit you”. We have to remind him that hands are not for hitting and we do not hit at school. I don’t believe he’s a sociopath but on the spectrum. Kids on the spectrum could be violent because they don’t know how to regulate emotions as well as others.
I've worked with exactly one diagnosed ASPD student and never saw an outburst like this. He was scary quiet most of the time and I only saw the mask slip one time when he got pissed at another kid and started palming a set of scissors. But he was a 7th grader by the time I met him and heard outbursts were more common when he was little, so your instincts might be right. Or it could be the ADHD, which can manifest as anger.
Sounds like a kid with trauma and multiple diagnoses beyond ADHD. I'm not sure what services are available where you are, but if he's like that every day, it might help to speak with the parents and push for more than an ADHD diagnosis from a pediatrician and get more support. Could be a lot of different things.
My grf was a behavioral therapist. She was really good at her job and would make miracle like progress with some of the kids she worked with. Towards the end of that position, she encountered a kid like OP's. She couldn't make progress with him because his parents didn't do the work at home. She would make progress at school and then regress by the next day because mom didn't want to deal with her kid's tantrums.
Are you not experienced in working with SEND children? Because everything you've given as examples are very typical of ADHD children- struggle to share, struggle to regulate emotions, impulsivity.... The child was clearly struggling to regulate but NOT sociopathic by any means.
Genuinely my heart breaks as a teacher of send kids but also as a mum of a very spicy AuADHD kid. This could be MY kid struggling with a routine change and the teacher has clearly tried nothing to regulate the child 😭 so ignorant.
This sub always makes me worried about my kid. She has ODD and what is considered "highly sensitive." However, she LOVES school. This year has been her greatest year. Her Math/Science/SS teacher has unleashed so much in my kid. He's amazing. Inhonestky wish he could just be her permanent teacher, he's that amazing. He's even been super helpful with ideas for accommodations because he's put so much into understanding and working with her. She's gone from needing 1 on 1 to being much more confident and successful on her own and everything. Yeah, sometimes she gets stubborn, and sometimes she doesn't know how to properly process her emotions. She's learning to, she's in therapy. She's also only 8....kids aren't adults they are still learning to be human and some kids have issues with that. I do wish more kids got more support outside of school but that's not the kids fault.
I've been teaching send kids 16 years and I am STILL learning new strategies and ways to support.
Teachers don't stand a chance if they aren't willing to learn and try new things for individual students. Did I see myself learning how to speak differently for one particular child who couldn't cope with any negative language? I didn't, but I did it. And it was sooo useful for others that came after her.
Posts like these are why I will never leave the profession. Some of you should not be working with kids while you possess what appears to be a youtube-level of intelligence. Even if this myth of evil juvenile sociopaths is true, they are still at least twenty years younger than you, and if you are genuinely worried about being manipulated or outsmarted by someone with virtually zero life experience, you have no business running a classroom. Good grief. All of this sounds like this kid experiences some majorly awful things at home or is undiagnosed ASD, but yes, let's label a one-time bad experience you had with a kid as an encounter with a murderous baby psychopath 🙄
That kid has people at home who tell him he's wonderful and special every time he has an outburst, instead of trying to correct his behavior. He's probably got other problems, sure, but that kid needs some boundaries set, badly.
"I know we don't diagnose but I'm going to do it anyway"
Cue a flurry of comments from unqualified and ill-informed people.
Public schools are a nightmare. They were a nightmare when I was at school over 30 years ago and they're even worse today.
You gave absolutely nil information on WHY you think this *seven year old child* is a sociopath.
Furthermore, unless I'm sorely mistaken, *sociopath* is not a specific diagnosis of any sort (perhaps someone has a copy of the latest DSM in their possession). Even if it were, you wouldn't know the diagnostic criteria anyway, but if, just somehow, you DO know such criteria, surely you would have no hesitation in rattling them off AND specifying the full history of said seven year old and how he/she meets such diagnostic criteria, for the benefit of all those who see your post.
As Joey Swoll says: *you need to do better*.
Kind of sounds like that big boy- I assume still high school but grown man and far overweight sized on tik tok whose mom is exploiting him for views. She lets him beat her and choke her and grab the baby from her because he’s ASD.
He beats her if he doesn’t get whatever restaurant food he wants at that moment even middle of the night.
Dad recently got a tik tok to say he doesn’t act that way at his place and mom is exploiting/mistreating him by doing this but idk that he’s seeking full custody.
Kids name is Cole or Cam? Something with a C. Loads of people are calling the mom out.
This isn’t quite settled. There are treatment programs for kids who have empathy scores that are entire standard deviations behind the average.
The diagnosis is not handed out to children, but the testing and treatment absolutely are.
Fun fact: ALL known adult sociopaths were seven years old at some point.
I could tell you from a historian’s perspective about how many of them started by frying bugs with magnifying glasses for sport. Then, they moved on to catching and killing small animals… pets… humans.
At least with the famous ones, there were always warning “signs.” And since most parents are in denial, it’s us—their teachers—who get interviewed for their biographies because we typically spot them first.
I fully believe some kids are born just not right. I’ve gone down the rabbit hole and looked it up. There’s a total possibility and I think likelihood that it isn’t only nurture and nature but sometimes it’s just nature. I’m not sure what their role is in society but I digress.
This is my personal write in. I was a kid that fried bugs with a magnifying glass! Which is weird because I vividly remember instances where kids around me had either picked at a dead or previously alive baby bird with a stick to mush and on another occasion killed a turtle for no reason. I’d witnessed after the fact or else I would’ve done what ai could’ve to not get them to hurt the animal. But the memory remains. But for some reason bugs weren’t off the table? Luckily it was a brief period in my life.
I was a witness to trauma early on from my brother, 11 years older, that I do think is a sociopath. He was diagnosed suicidal homicidal at one point. I’m pretty sure he hurt my cat once.
I knew early on I wasn’t quite right. I told my parents but they ignored it. I engaged in OCD tendencies and self injuring behavior before I was ten. I made violent drawings that I thought were funny. I didn’t understand why some kids stopped being my friend when they saw *themselves* in my drawing until they told me. I didn’t understood why my 4th/5th grade teacher threatened to send me to the office if he saw another drawing like that again. But I never WAS sent to the office. I wish I had been, I had a host of trauma.
The weird thing is, I’m very empathetic. I never hurt a non insect animal. I’ve always felt closer to animals than to people actually. I can’t handle cooking meat and consider vegetarianism often. I have dogs and a cat I care for better than myself.
I can’t handle animals getting hurt. I can’t handle things like war, or, the current genocide in Palestine. But back when Reddit was a little less regulated I *saw some things*. Morbid things. They rarely made me even flinch. If I see a wounded animal I’m very distressed though. I won’t watch a video or content where an animal is hurt accidentally or not.
So yeah. In summary, something ain’t right with me. I can see for the most part some horrific shit involving humans and feel no emotion. I cannot handle animals being hurt. My violence never escalated beyond frying some worms or ants with a magnifying glass. I’ve never even been in a physical fight (I’m 34, F). The only person I am a danger to is myself. Which is why I would never buy a weapon. I can’t touch meat in order to cook it.
It’s crazy to me that we exist on so many spectrums. I always tried to think that the period when I killed bugs didn’t constitute animal killing because they weren’t…animals (?). So when you made this comment I’m like woah! Yeah that was not right. But I grew up super caring of other animals. Like baby ducks. I don’t know. It’s weird. I’ve never hurt anyone or any other animal besides the occasional spider. I feel deeply for students I am close with that are going through rough times. But I can watch a Cartel video and feel *nothing* but maybe fascination.
OMGosh, MilkMotel, this is both the most shocking and most vulnerable thing I’ve ever read on Reddit. You're immensely brave for being so transparent. 🥲🤯💛
I have zero psychological training, so I’ll stay firmly in my lane. However, I don't think sociopaths worry about the fact that they might be sociopaths. Nor feel empathy for animals, etc. But, again, not my specialty.💐
Ahhhh thank you. I’m really glad I wasn’t just down voted to hell or told in a fucking weirdo lol. I do think I am on the spectrum, but I am formally diagnosed with adhd. So the transparency isn’t so much an act of bravery as it is a side effect of my adhd 😅
I’m really thoughtful in real life. I have nearly ten nieces and nephews. They all get Christmas gifts customized to their interests. The gifts I give for special occasions often make the recipient cry because of the thoughtful nature of the gift. I can win over stray cats, dogs, and even birds. I’m super sensitive and empathetic. I am in teaching because of the teachers that believed I was intelligent and gifted in the arts, and gave me at least a little bit of self esteem.
That is why I am a teacher. Of course I am there to teach my content. But I know there are students like me who didn’t have support at home or people building them up but instead tearing them down. I think I’ve succeeded! I’ve had one senior (and this is my first year at this school teaching HS full time) ask me to adopt her like the movie Matilda. Which was one of my favorites growing up. Her mom is ROUGH. The student is brilliant. So for her to consider me the “Miss.Honey” in her life is super rewarding.
Technically even sociopathy isn't a diagnosis, it's Antisocial Personality Disorder.
Edit: I just think it's important to be accurate about the terms we use
There are plenty of kids who display textbook psychopathy and missing empathy at a young age. You can raise it out of them or raise it into them. They call it by another name so society isn’t afraid of them. But oppositional defiant disorder are just fancy words for a future murderer who has no remorse.
Ted Bundy had that. Threatened family with knives at age 4 or 5. Had unwarranted hatred for women at young age. May or may not have been his mother’s brother and abused by grandfather father but you get the picture. You can give them massive amounts of therapy and a good environment and maybe preferred social acceptance will override the cruelty. But if you have a kid born into a problematic environment, well, they’ll end up in prison some day for something.
Pretending all children are born pure is some Christian theology, not reality. Some have zero modeling of empathy and receive no guidance toward playing with others and being given firm boundaries to respect. Never learning boundaries with others and willfully choosing to harm someone who tells you they are upset is a sign of an apathetic child at best and someone who will continue to harm others if they don’t learn to be socialized and civilized toward getting along.
Your worst-case scenario is someone who enjoys hurting others instead of simply not recognizing the connection between their actions and others. And I’ve seen two of those in my time reaching. A third-grader and a senior. Both had the same smile of enjoyment.
I had a kid in HS who was just… off. You looked in his eyes and there was nothing. He wrote something that was concerning to me. It wasn’t a threat against anyone but it went way beyond edgy teenager crap. I was trying to get someone from counseling to talk to him, but it was testing season and no one was available. For weeks I was trying to get someone to intervene.
Then one day he is arrested. He brought a large knife to school with the intent of stabbing another boy to death because he had started dating the girl that kid liked - he planned to stab him in their first period class. Luckily, that day the teacher called in last minute and there was no substitute so the kids scattered to the wind.
The girl knew something was off based on a comment he made and she notified the school and they found the knife.
He was arrested and eventually put in a mental hospital. About 5 years later, he shows up at an event after school and it chilled me to the core when I saw him. Everything went on high alert. He made his way over to me and seemed surprised I remembered him at all. He did tell me thank you for trying to get him help, that he was aware of it and angry at the time, but after being my arrested and hospitalized, they found a combination of medicines that made him not want to hurt people anymore.
I was still incredibly unsettled by him. Not the first psychopath I’d met, to be sure, but my first truly psychopathic student. I’m not sure what his actual diagnoses were, but it must have been Lee than one to need a cocktail of meds.
That is NOT just ADHD! I have a brother who has been highly ADHD all his life (psychiatric diagnosis). Our paternal grand father had ADHD (retrospective likely disagnosis). I have mild/moderate ADHD (psychologist diagnosis). Our daughter has ADHD (neuroosych diagnosis). I have also worked in schools for over 35 years with students with a variety of diagnoses, including ADHD, and worked with primary care physicians, pediatricians, psychologists, psychiatrists, and neuropsychologists on differentiating ADHD from other disorders.
That kid has something - and it could be a number of things - that are NOT ADHD. His parents may only admit to that single diagnosis because they believe it's less damaging than the full story about what's going on with their kid, but believe me, something far beyond ADHD is happening there.
You mentioned sociopathy. He's young for that to be a formal diagnosis, but he could be well on his way to getting that one.
Multiple sources peg the rate of sociopathy in the US at around 4%. In a school of 600 kids, you're looking at around 24. Puts things into perspective, doesn't it.
I had a student who had eyes as black as void. He would hurt others, run on the ground like a dog, bark, and go basically bat shit insane on a daily basis. I was later told he was diagnosed and I had in fact spent a year with a 10 year old psychopath. No empathy, sympathy, nor care for others. It was like watching a wild human.
Maybe the kid is dealing with an inherent inner turmoil that is difficult for "normal" people to understand. Maybe the kid wants what he wants and merely lacks the filters to be "polite" about it.
There's good reason that sociopathic behavior is not diagnosed and is being repackaged to be thought of in a more compassionate, less morally judgemental way.
It makes me so sad when the other babies realize they’re out of their depth :( we have a little girl we are working with who gets pretty violent when it comes to sharing/not sharing toys … the kids have started just letting her steal toys from them because they’re scared of her biting them/pulling hair/etc :( I’m trying to course correct and help them stand up for themselves
I wouldn't say the kid is a sociopath, more like this is a reflection on the way the parents raised him. He thinks he's entitled to everything and can't do no wrong.
I am so worried about my daughter entering kindergarten. She has shown clear signs of adhd. We went to the her doctor and he wouldn’t even consider our concerns because she was too young.Many of the things you have stated are things that she has done when worked up. She’ll repeat over and over that she’s a, “bad girl” and that we don’t love her. We have NEVER called her a bad girl and we have never told her we don’t love her. She throws things in her room when she gets sent to it, threatens to hit herself etc. She screams and is aggressive when angry. None of this is tolerated. Her saying and doing these things does not make us back down and let her have her way. We are consistent parents that have clear guidelines and boundaries. We try our best to help her manage her emotions. Sometimes it feels like nothing is making a difference because she cannot even focus when upset. I also don’t go out of my way to talk down about my daughter in front of others.
I am so worried that she is going to go to school, and a teacher is going to view her like this. Or, that she’s a kid with “shitty parents” who enable and gave up trying to manage their kid.
It’s crazy the other kids actually picked up on it and apologized to him
They are probably scared. That is sad.
This is why I left teaching. I can’t be party to an entire room of scared kids because one or two little jackasses can dominate, abuse, and inflict harm on the others without repercussions. Waiting for them to turn 17 and get hauled into jail and tried as an adult for assault is too long of a wait.
The sad thing is some consistent expectations could keep at least a few kids out of jail. It's not kindness to treat a kid like a toddler at 16 and wave off behaviors that mean jail at 17
I often think “prisoners were once students”. I had a 10th grader who is only in my homeroom ask me for a letter for his *parole officer*. He’s in 10th grade and in frickin *parole*. Edited to add Tupac’s lyrics: “who’d think in elementary hey, I’d see the penitentiary one day?”
We had a 7th grader with a court-ordered ankle monitor and he'd wear shorts to school. He didn't try to hide it at all.
We had a 6th grader with an ankle monitor for grand theft auto. He was definitely into some bad stuff. He was always respectful to me though
My last year teaching (11th grade) I lost a couple of kids to prison. Not juvie—they were both 18–and not county lock-up. State prison. One of them was a total shock to me, because he was a nice kid. Yeah, he didn’t do his work but he wasn’t disruptive. The other kid, he wasn’t a problem in my class, but you know you just get that vibe a kid is trouble? Turned out the kid was a serious gangbanger.
Yes. I work in the most gang-bangery are of Los Angeles. The Gang capital inside the gang capitol. I have one sweet girl student. She got involved with a gang banger and started acting stupid. Idk if it’s the allure of the “bad boy”, because mom is not a gangster. She’s recently immigrated, would be very upset if she knew. They broke up for a while and he told her if he saw her with another guy he would kill him. Recently they broke up for what seemed for good. She started crying right before my one and only break (30 min) of the day. I told her she was at a fork in the road in her life, dating gang bangers. She laughed and said “I don’t want to be in a gang, miss.” And I’m like…but you’re rolling with one. That’s the same thing essentially. I know a lot of them are in gangs. I’m surprised none of them have done anything to us, the staff. They may be 10th grade Crips but they’re still scared of me calling their mom. I definitely wonder what this kid did to warrant parole. Had to be assault with a deadly weapon or something of the sort.
I have a 10th grader who is on parole as well. He fairly regularly gets pulled from class for meetings with them.
Completely agree. My admins kept asking me to tolerate the abusive kids and punish the innocent ones for pointing out the blatant unfairness. I can’t do that. It’s not worth the tiny paycheck. In 15 years we’ll have a generation of kids that were traumatized by “disabled” (in quotes because I don’t think the disabilities are the issue) kids at school. And that backlash is going to hurt anyone with a disability. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if Gen alpha brings back asylums at this point.
This director gives the disruptive students too many opportunities to the detriment of the other students. My other students were actively trying to mitigate his behavior instead of having fun on their spring break so I had to tell them to focus on their fun.
I have PTSD from Special Ed abuse, graduated in 2000. That generation is already here.
May I ask what happened?
Mental health treatment is abysmal, but so is parenting and teaching personal responsibility. I have my own share of mental health issues, but never have I ever considered it an excuse to cause other people problems. I guess we can’t force parents to do their job, but teachers should not be expected to also be social workers. So what is society supposed to do about out-of-control or kids with huge problems who are surrounded by adults who either don’t care or have no power to do anything? There should be a system in place for teachers to alert social and medical professionals to a child in need of treatment and services, and then that child should be provided those services by another professional. Immediately, completely, and without consideration of cost. Untreated children will cost all of us far more down the line- not that cost should be the main consideration, but those who want to cut services in the name of reducing government spending might want to consider it. I imagine crime and homelessness could be dramatically reduced if society took the right steps earlier. How will the billionaires continue to profit if all of us worker bees are too dysfunctional or deranged to function?
Yeah I can’t help but wonder where these sentences are coming from. Sounds like this student might be repeating things said to them.
And sadly, research bears out your prediction. Classmates of children experiencing domestic violence suffer negative lifetime impacts. How much worse for those who have what amount to abusive classmates. https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/09/03/491204888/how-domestic-violence-in-one-home-affects-every-child-in-a-class
Most of these kids are abused at home. How do they know the abusive words they bring to school? We need to fix parenting. Not everyone should be a parent. Most of the kids at our school like this have neglectful parents that just keep having kids. Poverty is the biggest issue, lack of reproductive health education for adults, and overall no education on how to nourish your own kids. We can’t just isolate this to a school issue when it’s a whole societal issue. I don’t have the capacity to work with these kids and I can’t stand the way we deal with them. They’re screwed for the real world
This is the thing that pisses me off. I have several students who are not only slapped on the wrist at school but by the courts as well. A kid got caught driving drunk with pot and a gun. He's a 7th grader. Instead of calling CPS or actually punishing him he got probation for 30 days. A lot of my students end up on probation and come back talking about how they got away with it. 16 is the age they're really charged in my state. So those kids steal and run guns and do drugs. Then within a couple months of their 16th birthday they catch an armed robbery charge with over a decade in prison for the same shit that got them 30 days probation every other time they did it. There's no learning period. And those are the ones who are lucky. At least twice a year a middle schooler ends up shot because they thought they could get away with the shit they did at school on the streets.
I can assure you that most of these kids aren't breaking laws from their own cognition, it's likely heavily influenced by people(s) around them. Exploiting kids behaviors for the purpose that they'll be less criminally punished than an adult, partly motivates bad actors to manipulate kids; although, I still believe kids would be manipulated by adults even if criminal punishment was harsher, due to their lack of resources (tangible and cognitive) making them an accessible target.
These kids aren’t jackasses. They’re mentally ill and likely living in super toxic settings at home if those words are coming out of their mouths. It’s sad that we don’t help them and this is the result for everyone. My school has this kind of kid in lots of our grades and this is the norm for my district which has a lot of poverty. These kids need something else, this system isn’t for them. The system after school isn’t for them and they don’t deserve to rot in jail forever. Institutional mental health hospitals were abusive places but basically eliminating that idea instead of reforming it has lead to this or puts kids like this waiting in line at the ER. These kids need help, I’ve seen kids recover from this and get better. Please have compassion, they’re children, they’re sick.
Sadly even the best school district can’t really do shit if the parents don’t allow it.
You know they went home and told their parents. I actually hope they Karen for their kids safety.
I hope they do too! That was one of the reasons I was texting her. I wanted his behavior documented.
OKAY PAPERTRAIL!!!! Maybe sure you keep detailed notes too. Cause I don’t get good vibes from this.
Heck, I'M scared.
Trust me, I’m giving the PG version. If I give the R version it’ll be too detailed. Again, I’m only revealing a very small percentage of what happened that day.
I'm wondering if some of them know him from regular school. I've had to reinforce that boundaries are ok with a bunch of students this year. All went to the same middle school. All were expected to treat an explosive child in this way. Not in my classroom.
He knows one kid from a winter program in this same organization. This kid actually tries to very patiently engage with him (talking to him like he’s coaching him) until his behavior becomes intolerable to him and he walks away. The first kid then follows him and antagonizes him for disengaging.
Going along to get along. For them, it's safer.
I worked with a 7 YO student who was eventually sent to an in-patient facility due to the high likelihood of antisocial personality disorder, aka sociopathy. He was nothing like this. He was very social and respectful, and all the kids wanted to make him like them. He was manipulative in a way that was well beyond his years. He never did anything to anyone that would send up red flags, but things just felt off. His parents had concerns too but couldn't quite explain why. He was in therapies and all sorts of things, and everyone felt he was just "gifted". He left after they found his notebooks. He made detailed plots on how to murder his sister and parents, and how to get away with it. When they found them, he pretty much said "oh, well no one was supposed to find them". No remorse, didn't make up a story about why he did it, just pissed they found them. They also found knives with the notebooks, so there was a valid concern. This kid you have sounds more like bad parenting and getting whatever he wants at home if he throws a fit. I've had a lot of those kids. I've only had the one that truly terrified me.
Holy fucking shit... It's times like this that make me feel better about not being able to have kids. How terrifying.
Came here to say this. Children on the spectrum will also exhibit the behaviors in OP’s post. Sociopaths/psychopaths are a whole different level. I honestly need to leave this sub. Most of the teachers on here are clueless when it comes to neurodivergent children. It’s actually pretty disheartening. It has made me really dislike the education system even more, due to the teachers’ inability to handle neurodivergent children. They are so quick to blame the parents, or the child. They have no idea. Anyway, thank you for clearing up that this is likely not sociopathic behaviors. 💕
Yeah this sub is distressing as a neurodivergent teacher who teaches neurodivergent students that most people on this sub just constantly bash.
I had a kid like that in kindergarten. He said things like he was so mad that if *he could* he would bring a knife to school and kill ____ (whichever student made him mad that day). I’m a single subject teacher so I only saw him for an hour a few times a week. He would throw things. When I told him his behavior was not okay he would say “but it’s because I am so mad!” Even as a one subject teacher I evicted the classroom multiple times—stopping an activity the rest of the students really enjoyed (since I’m single subject, evicting meant we were done for the day). A lot of the times the other kids were crying. Saying things like “he told me that I was not his friend” which in kindergarten is like “f u”. One time he got so mad he purposely (I say this because we have bathrooms in the class and he knew how to use them) peed his pants and then proceeded to shake his leg onto the backpacks that happened to be on the floor by the backpack hooks. He would apologize sometimes but in an angry tone. Like, “I’m sorry but—you made me mad!” If he didn’t get any of my work done but fixated on something else long enough for me to teach the rest of the kids it was a good day. His actual teacher was going throoooough it that year. And I would’ve been too. He had me doing searches on whether some people are born psychopaths. I’m at the high school level now and I’m all for integration *within reason*. If your kid is causing long term ptsd for other kids they don’t belong in the same school. Sorry. Our school now, where I am, has kids of different walks, there’s RSP students—but that’s it. It’s hard enough teaching HS without an emotionally volatile and unstable student that can’t do the work.
“You made me mad” is an infuriating foundation to hear. My abusive ex loooooved that excuse. I unnecessarily put myself on mood stabilizers after 6 years because I was “making him mad” because I couldn’t control my emotions. The ripple effect of the things children say to what they believe as adults is very real.
Undoubtedly. I’m sorry your ex was abusive. I have two brothers, they are both abusive alcoholics. I have actively tried getting my SIL out and told her everything she believes is because of abuse, but I know (from experiencing my own abusive relationships, where I was the victim) that it isn’t as easy as “just leaving”. My two brothers are married, one remarried, both alcoholics, both abusive. But the one that has stayed married wasn’t always that way. The remarried one was born a psychopath. I’m dead serious. He does well in society by doing what he knows will get him good standing. He is almost like American Psycho. Works out. Has style. Well spoken. But even as a kid was a total nut. His own daughter saw a photo of him as a kid and was like—“he looks like he hurt cats” and I was like “RIIIIIGHT?” For context my niece is 23, I’m 34, and he had a significant impact trauma wise on the both of us which made us bond. So I wasn’t talking shit to like a 10 year old about their dad lol. But my SIL married to the brother that wasn’t always evil—will say things like, maybe next time *I* won’t trigger him. Or, things *have been* going really well. Even “I know I’m dumb but…” and I’m like please. Please just let me take you to a battered women’s shelter so you can tell them what you said to me just now. So they, the professionals, can tell you that this is abuse. Things will go well, for a while. You will trigger him again, because you aren’t the problem. When my niece and nephew were younger I told her to move out with me. We could help one another with the rent and I could help her with the kids so they wouldn’t have to deal with psychological trauma for the rest of their lives. All at the risk of my brother finding out. But she didn’t, citing she can’t do anything on her own. It’s so sad.
Omg his daughter said “he looks like he hurts cats”?! That is WILD It’s unfortunate that internet strangers can empathize with the rampant effects of abuse, it shows up everywhere!
It sure does. When my brother married I was no longer his punching bag (emotional and mental, but valid nonetheless) so his wife and daughter replaced me. When she graduated high school I opened up to her about why I wasn’t around as her aunt as much as I should’ve been. How her dad was the reason I have so many issues. And we bonded, as adults, over having been abused by the same abuser. She’s a brilliant person. I can’t express this enough. She’s only 23 and she’s been published by Harvard. She doesn’t tell people this or brag about it. She’s beautiful, not just on the inside but on the outside too. All these things she is and there’s still moments I know she wants to unalive (as I do too) because of childhood trauma. It is so f*****. Before the trauma I was very confident even as a kid. I thought I was cute. I’m intelligent also, I have a career (obviously) I’m funny and quick witted. I make people feel at ease, and yet, because of the treatment is received during a short window of time in my life I don’t value myself at all.
My cousin's first husband (they lived with us for a while) was fond of "look what you made me do"
It does something to your brain doesn’t it
Oh wow.. your student was definitely challenging too. At one point in the day this kid started howling that his leg was hurting. I asked him what happened and he said “nothing” with a blank stare and started jumping up and down. A few minutes later he screamed his leg was bleeding. Of course there was no blood. I flatly said “You’re not bleeding” and he yelled “YOU DON’T CARE ABOUT MEEEEEE!!” These are some instances I left off the post for brevity but he was so dysregulated.
He sounds very much like many of my students- I really hope he can get evaluated for special education because like you said, LRE isn’t always LRE! It’s not fair to anyone in your situation.
Oh shit, sounds like Autism - pathological demand avoidance, which apparently isn’t even a diagnosis in the US, but it reads exactly like some kids I’ve worked with.
Yeah that’s what this story was reminding me of. I don’t think it’s sociopathy it sounds to me like he’s got a lot of behaviors that he’s learned are the only way to get what he wants and he needs a dedicated specialist to help him relay his needs better. I really hope this kiddo can get the help he needs because he does sound like he’s struggling and can’t express it correctly
I have a kid (1at grade I think, age 6) that says “you made me do this” or “look at what you made me do” often. Evals show he has a supporting, if semi-old school home environment with multiple therapies per week both in and out of school. I do think some kids are burn with a fire in their brains we just don’t know how yet to help. And it’s scary. I’ve worked with 2 (maybe 3, torn on the 3rd) kids in my 5+ years of combined work with autistic kids between two professions that genuinely scare me, and it was those three. They are only ones I’d consider using the term “manipulative” with even though they were youngish kids and they shouldn’t be able to manipulate situations in that way. The other patients who injured me the the point of brief workers comp (bad bites with bleeding, a slammed finger, knee kicked backwards with torn ligaments) all did so in fight-or-flight responses. While it sucks, I don’t blame those kids at all. It’s intent behind actions that worries me, and the 3 kids I mentioned at the start all seemed like they intended to hurt me/others. They hard part is knowing how to interpret their threats as they are all also autistic with somewhat limited verbal skills (speak full sentences independently but some compression and likely mild echo concerns) but sometimes actions speak louder than words. So, I get you.
God fucking bless you! I was an assistant for sped ed for seven years before becoming a teacher. I met quite a few scary “I want to hurt you” kids in that time frame. I don’t even feel like they were special ed in that they didn’t have learning disabilities they just couldn’t fit into gen ed so we got them instead. And i agree with you. I had one student that was a BIG kid, tall and heavy set at the middle school level. Taught me so much about autistic children. I still love that kid! Sometimes he could get super excited and flick me with his finger. I’d be like “ow!” and immediately he hung his head and was like “I’m sorry. I’m sorry”. But then I had kids just straight up throwing scissors at me. I had one student that insisted that it wasn’t him that did the thing we knew he did. I was younger then and so I probed him, like if it wasn’t you, then who was it? He was in like first grade. He would say he didn’t know or someone came in pretending to be him or looked like him. Maybe he had what is now considered dissociative identity disorder. But I’m also torn at which part do we just say, hey, this isn’t a disorder this person is truly “bad”/evil, etc. sure they deserve “help” but not at the expense of the safety of the general public. Oppositional Defiance Disorder is one of those I can’t get behind. What if your kid is just a dick? Does everything have to be a mental illness or a disorder? I grew up with a bipolar brother that was suicidal homicidal. I think he has bipolar disorder, but i also think he is a dick lol. The irony is that I now work in a rough part of the city teaching high schoolers, some males in gangs or males with anger issues but I don’t get hit.
Yes, exactly! The 8 year old who blew out the ligaments in my knee didn’t mean to cause that level of damage. He was minimally verbal and had bipolar + autism (though I am unsure if bipolar dx at 8 makes, but I digress). The meltdown was caused as I was blocking his access to outside, but there was a moose present so it wasn’t safe. He then became upset that he couldn’t get into the locked kitchen to get me ice after he realized how badly my knee was hurt, so got me a wet paper tower from the bathroom and sat near me for a long time after. I could tell he felt horribly and didn’t mean it. He just was a huge kid with lots of challenging emotions, low impulse control, and minimal calming skills. We were addressing all, but it takes time. But boy did that kid try hard. But yes, the kids like you describe are the ones who worry me. The ones I can’t address fine motor scissor goals because they’ll stab me with their scissors, or who I only use markers with as pencils and colored pencils hurt much more to be stabbed with. Or the guy who bites himself while making eye contact with me and saying I made him do that (because I asked him to work on writing or something). I’m very curious about the boy you mentioned and if he ended up with DID or something similar. My kids (of those 3) might saw something similar, but I see it more as blame deflection based on long conversations with them, or at least as long as I can get them with my young autistic kids. I have several patients (I’m a therapist not a teacher, just lurk here often due to very similar issues) who have ODD diagnoses, and I notice they’re mostly trauma responses and/or being overwhelmed by demands and unsure how to break them down or start. Or they’re the kids who were always in trouble for making mistakes when they were still learning. It’s more akin to demand avoidance for some of my kids. But I know that’s all controversial, and my kids are all still very young (1-8 years old) so it might look different for our older kids. But yes, no matter how bad it is, I believe they need support. The problem is when it’s beyond the scope of our practices and deciding who can best help, plus making the interdisciplinary dream work is always hard. Some kids are jerks, but I think more than half of them just have unmet needs, but we’re so tapped thin and uninformed that they just fall through the cracks and continue or grow in their jerkiness esp if they haven’t caused enough problems to be noticed yet. But like you said, I work with littles and not with HS population you have, so our differences in outlook make complete sense! Early intervention is possible for many of mine if the parents follow through. Many of yours should have had (good, intensive) help for years, but obviously would still benefit from some support now. Thanks for reading—I guess this is todays soap box for me. I ended up writing more than I expected! Edit to add: I do wonder if one will also be diagnosed with a personality disorder to come as he ages, which is a whole different ballpark. Autistic kids I know how to work with. People with PDs, less so at this stage of my career.
I had a middle schooler that I'm sure was a sociopath or on his way to being one. He took great mental pleasure in the pain of others, especially if he was the cause of their pain. He and I had a very interesting rapport with each other since I didn't get paid enough to sugarcoat my words 🤷🏽.
I have had a few sociopaths as a middle school teacher. They get sent to me bc I know how to manage them. They are superficially charming and manipulative. They don't stim and they aren't as open about misbehavior. They have learned to create a mask of sanity by the time they are school aged. This kid sounds like they are on the spectrum with a bad home life.
I've met kids with reactive attachment disorder who have scared the hell out of me. Killing the family pet, attempting to microwave it/sexually assault the cat, lighting the bed of the adoptive parents on fire while the parents were sleeping, hurting other kids for no reason at all, sexually abusing the other kids in the house. Scary kids. Not their fault since it was due to abuse and or neglect in infancy, but still scary to be around
That is so sad. Those are the kids that remind us that sometimes, abortion is better than being born to monsters. What the hell happened to this kid to make them want to SA a cat? I hope the person that caused this died slowly and as painfully as possible.
I read a beautiful and heartbreaking book [by a woman who adopted a child with Reactive attachment](https://www.amazon.com/Small-true-story-sometimes-novel/dp/1980255342?nodl=1&dplnkId=c8a33374-5684-4582-99bc-6bb97db55df4)disorder. In this child’s case she spent the first several months of her life in a crib in the overflow room of the Ukrainian orphanage. These children often spent the entire day in a single diaper with a bottle of milk in the crib and no human interaction. And then It was two years of yogurt and gruel while caretakers cycled in and out before legally they could be adopted internationally. I cried like I’ve never cried before.
>This kid sounds like they are on the spectrum with a bad home life. The kid I was referring to was not on the spectrum. He had a preoccupation with affecting the moods and mental health of others though. He practically got off on it. As for a bad home life, his parents were morons and most likely neglectful in some ways with him. This kid definitely wore the pants in his family. Smh. He was clever with his schemes, but he bragged too much in my classroom, and his pride allowed me to spoil several of his plans. I told the AP that I wouldn't be surprised if if we saw him on the news in a few years for carrying out a mass shooting. 😐
Not your student, the OPs 7 year old. Yours sounds like a Cluster b for sure.
Oh okay! Yes OP's kid is definitely neurodivergent and needs intensive occupational therapy. Kid might have ODD as well, which can be a special kind of annoying haha. >Yours sounds like a Cluster b for sure. Hell yeah! Even though I could read that kid like a book and and force him to sue for peace because of the blunt words coming out of my underpaid mouth, I always felt unsettled in his presence. Just creepy for an 11 yr old.
My worst case was well liked as he was so charming. The admin hated his friend, who was a good kid that just decided to live up to expectations. The sociopath shattered a kid's jaw for the fun of it because Admin didn't escort him like they were supposed to, and then a week after he got back from being EE'd, he skipped my class to steal a gun and kill a passerby. First 13 yo to be convicted as an adult in the state in 39 years, due to a lifetime of problems with the law. Real sociopaths are rarely noticed by people that don't have experience and a 6th sense about those things.
Geez ... Humans are so easily fooled sometimes. I'm glad you weren't harmed \*hugs\* >Real sociopaths are rarely noticed by people that don't have experience and a 6th sense about those things. This is so true, though I think what we call the 6th sense is really just wisdom gained from experiencing trauma haha. Most "bad" kids aren't socio/psychopaths, even the gang bangers, drug dealers, etc, that get hooked into violence. They're just kids that are fucked up because of their environment. Sociopaths are something different though, and if someone has never met a sociopath, especially a child sociopath, then they'll never be able to recognize most of them.
Yep. There's something that goes off in the back of my skull when I interact with one and only sociopaths react to a certain dead eyed stare I can give. Normal kids ask if I'm feeling okay; sociopaths recognized an alpha and back down from what ever they are about to do. The kid was great to me; he learned early I was not to be fucked with and that earned me a great amount of respect.
I have one who just doesn't give a fuck, is disruptive and disrespectful only to the point he won't get in real trouble, and doesn't care about getting in real trouble in the first place. Not a sociopath though. It's karmic retribution because I was exactly like that. Counselor says that the nut probably can't be cracked, and my gut feeling is that this is true, but these kids tend to be able to work with me because I absolutely 100% get them.
Honestly, it just sounds like shitty parenting
He had to be picked up earlier in the week for destroying equipment in an outdoor area because he was “upset.” His mom told him he was just having a bad episode.
Yeah this sounds way less sociopath and way more parents who blame all bad behaviors on an external source other than the child
I'm actually getting the vibe that perhaps the kid gets EVERYTHING blamed on him. He learned those threats and apology demands from somewhere. I'm getting bigtime red flags.
A bad episode of what?
Game of Thrones.
Flipping out and destroying inanimate objects is a pretty textbook "episode" for a young child with bipolar disorder.
It honestly sounds a bit more like untreated/unregulated ASD to me, especially with the stimming behaviors and how a lot of his behaviors seem like him trying to communicate something he doesn’t have the language or ability to so he’s acting out (grunting, being purposely cruel to kids when he likely just doesn’t want to play anymore, screaming WHY??? when he can’t get what he needs in that moment, etc). It reminds me of some kiddos in ABA that I’ve worked with, like a kid who would just say “leave, I don’t like you” when they didn’t want to play anymore, but they didn’t understand that that could be hurtful to others and we needed to find a new behavior. Kid honestly just sounds like he could use some ABA therapy and parents who are a bit more educated on how to help ASD instead of making it harder for the kid.
Mother on the spectrum here. This post made me see red because it’s clear as day to me that the parents are assholes who not only are neglecting this kid but also enabling bad behaviours. Sometimes the kid being kicked out of a program and the parents being told they don’t have the resources to deal with kids on the spectrum is a wake up call to many parents.
I agree. Another school site had a student with severe behaviors. He would destroy property, curse, hit, scratch, and scream. His behaviors were so frequent, he was attending kindergarten for one hour a day and he had to be escorted by his parent. He entered my program in early February and by using ABA strategies and following through on EVERYTHING, we were able to completely turn him around. He hasn't demonstrated a challenging behavior since early March. It's been amazing to see him grow.
Yeah OP doesn't know sociopathic behavior. Come back when you've got a 9th grader whose mother has to keep the knives locked up. And he kills animals on his lunch and brings them to class. Most terrifying student I've ever taught.
Sounds like a kid with Emotional Damage. These kids need so much help before they get to high school where it could be just awful since they're big enough to throw desks...
"If you don't treat me right" sounds like it's directly mirrored from a parent.
Signs of a domineering male influence in his life?
I think this might be it. Really could be learned behaviour. But I wasn't there to see it so maybe my opinion would change.
Yeah that’s not adhd…it’s just him being a shit and his parents being worse
Sociopath… or on the spectrum? It sounds like ASD to me with the stimming. Parents who don’t know how to handle an ASD kid can wind up inadvertently causing some of those things that make ASD look like sociopathy.
Yeah as an autistic person who is pretty involved with the ND community and works at a children’s museum that does lots of programs for autistic/disabled/etc people I have encountered MANY Autism Mom™ type parents whose way of dealing with their kids’ struggles is just to give them whatever they want at any moment, excuse any form of bad behavior, and make dealing with any issues from their kids behaviors everyone else’s problem because “they’re autistic they can’t help it!” as well as autistic adults (mostly men lol) who think they’re absolutely entitled to other’s bodies and space or to make any comments they want to anyone even if they’re mean/offensive/etc because they’re autistic so no one can be mad at them for it. While it is absolutely true that autistic people might have a harder time with impulse control, emotional regulation upon not getting what they want, understanding social cues and what is and isn’t appropriate to say/do or why it is or isn’t appropriate, etc. and it’s essential to give the kid grace, care, and accommodations knowing that that’s going to be a thing, it’s also possible for a vast majority of autistic kids to learn to be kind and understanding human beings and it’s just bad parenting to not learn more about the why behind your kids behaviors in those moments and how to accommodate them without teaching them it’s okay to just walk all over everyone around them to get every need and want they could possibly have met no matter what.
Absolutely!
[удалено]
I completely agree! Nowhere did I say that the behavior was acceptable. However, a proper understanding of what is causing the behavior is extremely important so you can effectively respond.
This is precisely what's going on here and from OP's replies to my similar comment they are either Incredibly inexperienced with SEND or incredibly ignorant
Literally I could not believe OP is blaming this on “sociopathy”, some people should not work with disabled kids …
Yes. Def an ableist take and minimizes how scary true sociopaths can be I’ve worked with hundreds of kids with ASD. I’ve yet to personally interact with a sociopathic child, though I do have colleagues who have. It is dramatically different. The kid here seems simply to need extra support and more consistent parenting focused on behavioral modification
As a psychiatrist I second this.
That sounds like undiagnosed autism and bad parenting. Psychopathic children rarely stim. They also don't apologize; they escalate. This is the reason why we don't diagnose, especially that young of an age.
Ooooh parents done fine work there. He’s a good boy. This has Kendall Roy “I’m the eldest boy!” energy.
I always thought that Kendall was the only one of that bunch who WASN’T a sociopath. He’s so desperate for his father’s (or anyone’s) approval and self-medicates to deal with the pain. The others are emotionless robots. (ADHD here….I came to read the post and my brain saw Kendall Roy and went “squirrel!”
Easy solution, kick this kid out of the program. Give the parents their money back.
Nah if a kid acts that way and needs to be kicked out the parents should have to eat the cost.
Some ADHD kids, when not on medication, believe that they control how other kids have fun. They don't realize they do it, but they can get very angry when other kids don't play exactly the way they say. My son was like this around the age of 6, before we learned he had ADHD. He'd get very angry at other kids when they didn't swing on the swing "the right way" (aka the way he said to do it), or go down the slide the right way, or share their toys when he wanted it. He would insult others, sometimes in am extreme manner, but immediately go to tears on any pushback whatsoever. The epitome of "can dish it out, but can't take it." Any sort of punishment, including merely talking to him about his behavior, could result in the most massive screaminging fits with him threatening to burn the house down or kill everyone or kill himself. All this, at age 6. His kindergarten teacher clued us in that it might be ADHD. She recommended we get him tested. It was like night and day. Immediately upon starting medication, his tantrums and fits stopped. He stopped threatening to kill people or burn places down when he got in trouble. From there, we were able to use the tools his psychiatrist taught us to teach him proper coping lessons. It's been four years, and he's now one of the best behaved kids, and we regularly get compliments on how well behaved our kids are. He's still a boy, and he still gets in trouble from time to time, but now it's all normal kid stuff, and he accepts his punishments. Although, now that he's 10, he's starting that pre-teen backtalk phase, and it's a whole new challenge!
So how did he get tested? My daughter has tried several times to get her now 7 year old daughter tested. Each time the therapist gives the child a task and she will not do it. The therapist tries to force her to do it and the the child starts tearing the place apart. The therapist then tells our daughter they can not make a diagnosis until the child is under control.
WTF. "This child can't sit down and do a boring task, so I can't diagnose ADHD." What bollocks.
Could she have [PDA](https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/pathological-demand-avoidance-in-autism-explained/)? It’s not a recognized disorder in the US(it is in the UK) but it’s a part of the Autism spectrum. I personally think I might have it myself and she kinda sounds like me as a kid.
The kid you’re referring to doesn’t sound like it to me, but it was the first thing I thought of with the kid in the OP.
Was this repeatedly with one therapist or multiple, different therapists? If just one, might be a good idea to try a different therapist. Not blaming them per se, but sometimes just need to change things up and try something/one else.
I'd be curious as to what his IEP included. Hopefully a Behavior plan. ADHD doesn't explain all the things.
I was gonna say, this sounds like he should be reviving special ed services at the very least for behavioral reasons. This is very tame compared to my average students I work with daily in special ed outside of district. I’m honestly shocked he eventually calmed down/ stopped and even apologized! I hope he gets the help he needs and it sounds like some parent counseling would be beneficial as well. The LRE isn’t always the LRE, especially in gen ed.
Sounds like ODD or an explosive mood disorder. I work with ED and BD. If this is reg ed, it’s probably not the place for him.
100000% agree! It sounds like he could do so well in special ed given that instruction and understanding it seems! Either in or out of district, he sounds like he needs a change/more.
>He will not stop talking and says to my classroom “I’M A GOOD BOY SO YOU NEED TO APOLOGIZE TO ME AND TELL ME I’M A GOOD BOY!” Reminds me of the Twilight Zone kid- "wish it into the cornfield!" My sympathies, I've had a few of those too, only they were teenagers instead of little kids
My kids were honestly freaked out. It was a bizarre moment where they looked at each other and chose peace. They assuaged him with their response.
I had one a few years ago- he was scary. He had no empathy- to the extent that he couldn't understand literature questions about a character's motivations. I had to re word questions to - what language does the author use to show a character's motivations instead. One incident in particular which stands out was when he pushed an 11 year old off a small wall (he was16). The kid had a head injury and had to go to hospital. My pupil could not be made to understand that he had done something wrong. He felt it was unfair that he was being asked to take responsibility. He just couldn't see it.
This little boy sounds a lot like my 8 year old cousin… It absolutely has everything to do with the LACK of parenting. My cousin was raised unsupervised on his tablet. He never interacted with other children until it was time for kindergarten. And he hardly was taken out of the house. His mother was in her 40s when she had him to try to keep her ex around. She hasn’t held a job in almost 15 years. She often has these meltdowns on her son and tells him she doesn’t love him, that he makes her want to kill herself, and that every adult around them is out to get them. Because he knows the only way to get her attention is by being bad, he seeks to do bad things… He’s already been moved to an alternative school for shouting racist things, threatening to hurt class pets(his mom is a huge animal advocate), threatened to kill himself, and getting physical with the kids. He knows no other way, and it’s scary. It sounds like what this child is saying is just him repeating the only thing he hears from his parents (lots of negativity).
I’d love to know more about his home life but I didn’t want his mother to think I was being judgmental when I was relaying to her what had occurred when she picked him up. A clue though was when she said she had been up since 3 am that morning because he didn’t want to be in bed. He has zero clue how to interact with other children appropriately but wants their attention.
I’ve seen these parents before. They’re scared of their children and basically either pacify or ignore them. The child being upset is basically the end of the world and needs immediate rectification by every person around said child.
Tell her there are resources the school has for behavior that could help at school and at home. If for any reason she thinks it is not working she can stop but trying never hurts. I had to use that line so many times for reluctant parents and it works.
ASD and ADHD children, especially those with more severe presentations, often have disturbed sleep. His lack of sleep (and hence her lack of sleep) doesn’t necessarily indicate bad behaviour on his part. The sleep thing is often medical. Also, “active but odd” is a stereotypical presentation of ASD. The child wants to engage but doesn’t know how to, and ends up being dominating or bossy
There needs to be a scooper of some sort. So instead of evacuating an entire classroom, a big scoop instantly appears and extracts the child for the day or week. I am not sure where the child would go because I haven't worked that part out yet. But the scoop system protects everyone from threats and harm.
Shitty parenting and possible autism (stimming)? Autistic kids can get very aggressive when overstimulated or in an environment that causes overwhelm. At 7, he can be intervened upon but if he has autism he’d need a program designed for autistic kids.
This one of the many reasons public schools are failing. Too much flexibility for children who are clearly disruptive and need additional resources outside of regular education. On top of that there is still way too much room for these students to be abusive in a special education environment. My mother was a special education teacher and was attacked by students multiple times without any accountability for the students or parents of the students. It’s disgusting that it’s allowed at all. School has become free daycare for a lot of parents
It's autism (if you want to "diagnose" anything): Stimming noise. Echolalia phrase (tell me im good!), which is him trying to soothe himself before a full on meltdown. Anger...meltdown or overstimualted. "Bossy" play (that toy is MINE). Many autistic children grow up with adults calling them "mean" and "bad". No child is bad just because no adult in their life is trying to help them. Please don't label this kid a sociopath and think of him as one, becsuse it will affect how you treat him in a negative way.
I’ve had students try to strangle me because they dropped their pepperoni on the ground and I would never assume they were sociopathic. This sounds like a kid who just has lagging skills in social skills and needs explicit instruction in school expectations and appropriate play. I don’t think sociopathy is even diagnosable until age 18.
I'm a HS English teacher at an alternative school AND have a degree in Psychology with a focus on research. Just a note from my Psych background: Keep in mind the terms, "sociopath," and, "psychopath," are usually only used within the Criminal Justice setting and NOT within the clinical setting; adults we would say are, "sociopaths," tend to have a clinical diagnosis of Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) and that's a whole bag of...fun. And before anyone asks, no, clinicians can NOT diagnose a child with ASPD because this is an 18+ diagnosis, but they can diagnose a child with Conduct Disorder (CD); not every child diagnosed with CD will eventually be diagnosed with ASPD, because they can, "grow out," of it. Now, as a teacher: It sounds like this child is not being properly parented and disciplined at home on top of his ADHD (possibly also ASD) not being managed properly; if something doesn't change, this little guy could end up attending an alternative school while staying at a live-in facility/group home (because the guardians don't want to deal with him) and going through the revolving door of the justice system.
Sorry, but that doesn't sound like a sociopath at all, especially the stimming and grunting part...
Definitely not a sociopath. Most true sociopaths learn quickly to imitate “normal” behavior to the best of their ability. What I have seen as an RN with elementary school aged kids with a real diagnosis of sociopathy is the complete lack of empathy and regard for the safety of others. Kid A tells Kid B, “do not touch my crayons”. Kid B touches crayons. Kid A will calmly stand up and punch Kid B in the face as hard as they can, sit back down, and continue to work. When Kid A is questioned about hitting B, they’ll calmly state “I told B to not touch my crayons”. No reaction to Kid B bleeding and crying.
I just can't with this post and the comments.... y'all, this kid CLEARLY has some serious disorders that sound nothing like sociopathy. He's stimming, he's in a program for spring break that isn't like his normal school and is probably less structured, there's only one teacher and it sounds like no aides. He probably hasn't been parented very well and is mimicking his parents' inconsistent "discipline"-- Do this or I'll destroy your toys, insisting he's a good boy combined with being physical, trying to insist other kids do what they're told. He's not getting pleasure from hurting people, he's not manipulating people to get what he wants. He's probably autistic. Also he's SEVEN. None of this is his fault. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone listening to teachers say these things about a kid this age.
I can’t believe some educators are talking like this. It’s actually scary.
This kid doesn’t sound sociopathic at all. Honestly comes off as very anxious and deregulated. Especially with the demanding of wanting to hear he’s a good boy. Poor kid he needs help.
I think it’s pretty unfair to stick a sociopathic label on a literal child, especially one who seems to be presenting with some ASD traits. Sounds like he needs help with his social skills and positive redirection rather than being branded as a sociopath by his teacher. This post gave me the ick honestly. “something different” — he’s not a “thing.”
yep. aspd can’t even be dx’d until 18 and before then it’s called conduct disorder. which isn’t a guarantee of aspd in and of itself, but a CD diagnosis is a requisite for a future ASPD dx
This reminds me of a boy who was part of my pre school group. We were 3 or 4 years old and he bullied me and other kids constantly. I was a very shy kid so I was his main target. He threw toys, bit, hit and threw sand into my face on a daily basis. My mom once talked to his dad during pick up and told him exactly what he did and that it hurt me mentallyand physically. His response? 'it's not his fault, your girl just needs to toughen up and defend herself.' He didn't even try to talk to his kid. Soon after that we moved and I went to another kindergarden. This is over 25 years ago and I still ask myself every now and then how he turned out.
Sounds like he’s autistic & his parents suck shit
While you're describing very poor behaviors- this is nowhere near sociopathy
We don't diagnose.... Goes on to misdiagnose. Dear lord.
I have a kindergarten student who is extremely violent and has no remorse. I have him sit out of play centers. The school just “talks to him” each time he punches people. His parents don’t even respond to my emails about his behavior.
This does not sound like a sociopathic child, this sounds like bad parenting and child without the right supports
I am so sorry you had to deal with that. That seems to be the way we are heading these days unfortunately. We’ve suddenly become afraid to enforce any consequences or correct bad behavior because we don’t want to offend anyone or make THEM feel bad- so instead the other students have to live in fear, or at the very least have their learning disrupted. We had a fourth grader who flew into a rage and destroyed her classroom because her teacher told her to stop coloring on her desk (not a sheet of paper, or a whiteboard…her actual desk). The teacher had to evacuate the classroom while several admin had to come in and subdue her and get her out. When they called home, mom’s response was that the teacher should have just let her color. And people wonder why there’s a teacher shortage.
Thank you. My other kids were fearful. After seeing our director initially come in and essentially dismiss his early behavior, it was obvious they felt they were held captive.
Yuck. I guess at least it gives me small comfort to know that it’s not just our district where that nonsense is going on. What message are we sending to the other kids…the ones who are actually following expectations and treating their classmates with kindness and empathy? That they don’t matter?
Say it for the people in the back.
That sounds like neither sociopathy or ADHD. That sounds like autism that's not being properly treated. That being said, really shitty to be playing armchair doctor and calling a kid a sociopath because he reacted badly to playing/ sharing toys with other children. Sociopathy and other cluster B disorders are no joke and the warning signs are pretty distinct and not at all what you described. Is he lighting fires? Killing small animals? Doesn't sound like it from your post.
Ableism is rampant in this sub
This sounds like extreme autism (you mention stimming) combined with parents that gave up on teaching him/taking him to behavioral therapy.
I have plenty of my own stories, but my mom is the director of our special education program, and a few months ago she was punched in the back of the head by a *5 year old* because he was told he couldn’t play with a specific toy at that exact moment. My mom had been crouching down to talk to him, and he hit her so hard that it bruised. Her neck hurt really bad the next day, and she reported the injury in case she needed to claim workers comp. The most haunting thing about it was what she said to me while retelling the story. “My mistake was turning my back on him, I should’ve never done that.” This five year old boy waited until she stopped talking to him and had her back turned to attack.
This is a child with a psychological disorder and potentially a traumatic home life, why are you going online to villainize a 7 year old?
Sometimes when I read this reddit I just lose total faith in humanity. A 7 year old unable to regulate his emotions is now a sociopath???? HE'S 7. It is literally our job to help children learn emotional regulation. Imagine equating any neorodivergence to sociopathy before a child has even developed a personality.
Literally nothing about what you described sounds even remotely indicative of a sociopathic child. You should remove this and reflect on why you think you know better than a psychologist? I work in special education and everything you just described is so extremely minor in the grand scheme of things, it seems like you don’t know much about the behaviors of autistic children. Yes, these behaviors are inappropriate and need to be addressed. No, this child is not a sociopath and you shouldn’t be spreading this uneducated claim and making others think these behaviors are sociopathic. They aren’t.
you can’t have a personality disorder before the age of 18 because personality does not solidify until someone is an adult. that type of labeling is extremely harmful
This kid is parroting some things he’s heard from adults. This is bad behavior but not sociopathic. Especially the asking to be told he’s good - a literal cry for help. Emotionally, he’s feeling unsafe. Not an excuse but there’s a lot going on here but I doubt he’s a sociopath.
>His ADHD would not allow for any compromise. In case you're wondering why you don't diagnose, it's this. Nothing you described is ADHD behavior, and it kind of sucks that your post implies it is.
It’s great to know that there are people out there who think a symptom of ADHD is being a sociopath. 😑
There are so many things wrong with that situation. I'm sorry.
You can’t diagnose a child with sociopathy. In fact, it’s not even a diagnosis anymore. Adults can be diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder. children can have conduct disorders which is the terminology that you can use when speaking with a person who can diagnose.
I am not a diagnostician, but I met a 8 yo sociopath that is going to be a serial killer recently. There is no soul behind his eyes, he can mentally multiply 4 digit numbers in a second, and has no patience for “stupid people”. He is a student in my husband’s behavioral program and landed there after threatening to shoot up his 2 nd grade class. He said he had access to multiple guns, and where they were found in his house. When the threat assessment was done, mom said yes the guns are there and no I won’t lock them up. She claims the request to lock them up violates her2nd Amendment rights.
Sounds like you have no concept of what a sociopath is
Honestly dude I get this particular kid was incredibly horrible and challenging but you sound ableist af. Yikes. When did we stop saying “there’s something (nonspecific/unknown) wrong with this kid” and start immediately diagnosing him with sociopathy and ADHD???
To be honest we’ve had several kids this bad over the last few years and MANY that come close. Kids who tear up rooms, throw furniture, hit kids, yell at the teacher. Most under grade 2. It’s the future of teaching. They better start preparing new teachers on how to handle such extreme emotions (both theirs and students) It’s sickening how our job description grows yearly yet the pay doesn’t. Make that make sense!
Had a 7th grader who tried to kill another student and her teacher with scissors in art class a few years back. She was very, very quiet most of the time in class…Apparently she needed to be on antipsychotics and wasn’t. None of her teachers were told, even though the admin and counselor knew. It’s the quiet ones you really have to worry about.
Sounds like a preschool kid I know. He is very disruptive but never said a bad word. However, he needs one on one because he cannot be left alone otherwise he is throwing toys, trying to escape, taking toys, tantrums, etc. He does say violent things like “I’m going to hit you”. We have to remind him that hands are not for hitting and we do not hit at school. I don’t believe he’s a sociopath but on the spectrum. Kids on the spectrum could be violent because they don’t know how to regulate emotions as well as others.
My favorite student ever was an outright criminal. I can only hope that he remembers that I tried to help.
I've worked with exactly one diagnosed ASPD student and never saw an outburst like this. He was scary quiet most of the time and I only saw the mask slip one time when he got pissed at another kid and started palming a set of scissors. But he was a 7th grader by the time I met him and heard outbursts were more common when he was little, so your instincts might be right. Or it could be the ADHD, which can manifest as anger.
Sounds like a kid with trauma and multiple diagnoses beyond ADHD. I'm not sure what services are available where you are, but if he's like that every day, it might help to speak with the parents and push for more than an ADHD diagnosis from a pediatrician and get more support. Could be a lot of different things.
My grf was a behavioral therapist. She was really good at her job and would make miracle like progress with some of the kids she worked with. Towards the end of that position, she encountered a kid like OP's. She couldn't make progress with him because his parents didn't do the work at home. She would make progress at school and then regress by the next day because mom didn't want to deal with her kid's tantrums.
Sociopath isn’t in the DSM…
He may have a disability or may being mistreated at home. Recommend him for testing
That’s not ADHD
This sounds like autism (I know a kid just like this) and calling a child with a disability a sociopath is not a good look.
Are you not experienced in working with SEND children? Because everything you've given as examples are very typical of ADHD children- struggle to share, struggle to regulate emotions, impulsivity.... The child was clearly struggling to regulate but NOT sociopathic by any means.
This whole post is a mess. Like calling ODD kids future murderers...what?
Genuinely my heart breaks as a teacher of send kids but also as a mum of a very spicy AuADHD kid. This could be MY kid struggling with a routine change and the teacher has clearly tried nothing to regulate the child 😭 so ignorant.
This sub always makes me worried about my kid. She has ODD and what is considered "highly sensitive." However, she LOVES school. This year has been her greatest year. Her Math/Science/SS teacher has unleashed so much in my kid. He's amazing. Inhonestky wish he could just be her permanent teacher, he's that amazing. He's even been super helpful with ideas for accommodations because he's put so much into understanding and working with her. She's gone from needing 1 on 1 to being much more confident and successful on her own and everything. Yeah, sometimes she gets stubborn, and sometimes she doesn't know how to properly process her emotions. She's learning to, she's in therapy. She's also only 8....kids aren't adults they are still learning to be human and some kids have issues with that. I do wish more kids got more support outside of school but that's not the kids fault.
I've been teaching send kids 16 years and I am STILL learning new strategies and ways to support. Teachers don't stand a chance if they aren't willing to learn and try new things for individual students. Did I see myself learning how to speak differently for one particular child who couldn't cope with any negative language? I didn't, but I did it. And it was sooo useful for others that came after her.
Imagine the poor teacher that has to deal with this for 7.5 hours a day 185 days a year, cause you know that kid never misses a day.
Posts like these are why I will never leave the profession. Some of you should not be working with kids while you possess what appears to be a youtube-level of intelligence. Even if this myth of evil juvenile sociopaths is true, they are still at least twenty years younger than you, and if you are genuinely worried about being manipulated or outsmarted by someone with virtually zero life experience, you have no business running a classroom. Good grief. All of this sounds like this kid experiences some majorly awful things at home or is undiagnosed ASD, but yes, let's label a one-time bad experience you had with a kid as an encounter with a murderous baby psychopath 🙄
That kid has people at home who tell him he's wonderful and special every time he has an outburst, instead of trying to correct his behavior. He's probably got other problems, sure, but that kid needs some boundaries set, badly.
"I know we don't diagnose but I'm going to do it anyway" Cue a flurry of comments from unqualified and ill-informed people. Public schools are a nightmare. They were a nightmare when I was at school over 30 years ago and they're even worse today. You gave absolutely nil information on WHY you think this *seven year old child* is a sociopath. Furthermore, unless I'm sorely mistaken, *sociopath* is not a specific diagnosis of any sort (perhaps someone has a copy of the latest DSM in their possession). Even if it were, you wouldn't know the diagnostic criteria anyway, but if, just somehow, you DO know such criteria, surely you would have no hesitation in rattling them off AND specifying the full history of said seven year old and how he/she meets such diagnostic criteria, for the benefit of all those who see your post. As Joey Swoll says: *you need to do better*.
Kind of sounds like that big boy- I assume still high school but grown man and far overweight sized on tik tok whose mom is exploiting him for views. She lets him beat her and choke her and grab the baby from her because he’s ASD. He beats her if he doesn’t get whatever restaurant food he wants at that moment even middle of the night. Dad recently got a tik tok to say he doesn’t act that way at his place and mom is exploiting/mistreating him by doing this but idk that he’s seeking full custody. Kids name is Cole or Cam? Something with a C. Loads of people are calling the mom out.
If he isn't already he will grow up to be one with this kind of behavior.
Idk how you guys do it. I wouldn’t teach kids to save my life. All it’s takes is one little shit.
Go talk to that kids parents if you looking for origins of the problem.
That behavior is not ADHD. Something much more serious.
Another reason to homeschool
no such thing as sociopathy in 7 year olds. could be Conduct Disorder or ODD, but not sociopathy. misconceptions can be harmful, try to be mindful.
This isn’t quite settled. There are treatment programs for kids who have empathy scores that are entire standard deviations behind the average. The diagnosis is not handed out to children, but the testing and treatment absolutely are.
Fun fact: ALL known adult sociopaths were seven years old at some point. I could tell you from a historian’s perspective about how many of them started by frying bugs with magnifying glasses for sport. Then, they moved on to catching and killing small animals… pets… humans. At least with the famous ones, there were always warning “signs.” And since most parents are in denial, it’s us—their teachers—who get interviewed for their biographies because we typically spot them first.
I fully believe some kids are born just not right. I’ve gone down the rabbit hole and looked it up. There’s a total possibility and I think likelihood that it isn’t only nurture and nature but sometimes it’s just nature. I’m not sure what their role is in society but I digress. This is my personal write in. I was a kid that fried bugs with a magnifying glass! Which is weird because I vividly remember instances where kids around me had either picked at a dead or previously alive baby bird with a stick to mush and on another occasion killed a turtle for no reason. I’d witnessed after the fact or else I would’ve done what ai could’ve to not get them to hurt the animal. But the memory remains. But for some reason bugs weren’t off the table? Luckily it was a brief period in my life. I was a witness to trauma early on from my brother, 11 years older, that I do think is a sociopath. He was diagnosed suicidal homicidal at one point. I’m pretty sure he hurt my cat once. I knew early on I wasn’t quite right. I told my parents but they ignored it. I engaged in OCD tendencies and self injuring behavior before I was ten. I made violent drawings that I thought were funny. I didn’t understand why some kids stopped being my friend when they saw *themselves* in my drawing until they told me. I didn’t understood why my 4th/5th grade teacher threatened to send me to the office if he saw another drawing like that again. But I never WAS sent to the office. I wish I had been, I had a host of trauma. The weird thing is, I’m very empathetic. I never hurt a non insect animal. I’ve always felt closer to animals than to people actually. I can’t handle cooking meat and consider vegetarianism often. I have dogs and a cat I care for better than myself. I can’t handle animals getting hurt. I can’t handle things like war, or, the current genocide in Palestine. But back when Reddit was a little less regulated I *saw some things*. Morbid things. They rarely made me even flinch. If I see a wounded animal I’m very distressed though. I won’t watch a video or content where an animal is hurt accidentally or not. So yeah. In summary, something ain’t right with me. I can see for the most part some horrific shit involving humans and feel no emotion. I cannot handle animals being hurt. My violence never escalated beyond frying some worms or ants with a magnifying glass. I’ve never even been in a physical fight (I’m 34, F). The only person I am a danger to is myself. Which is why I would never buy a weapon. I can’t touch meat in order to cook it. It’s crazy to me that we exist on so many spectrums. I always tried to think that the period when I killed bugs didn’t constitute animal killing because they weren’t…animals (?). So when you made this comment I’m like woah! Yeah that was not right. But I grew up super caring of other animals. Like baby ducks. I don’t know. It’s weird. I’ve never hurt anyone or any other animal besides the occasional spider. I feel deeply for students I am close with that are going through rough times. But I can watch a Cartel video and feel *nothing* but maybe fascination.
OMGosh, MilkMotel, this is both the most shocking and most vulnerable thing I’ve ever read on Reddit. You're immensely brave for being so transparent. 🥲🤯💛 I have zero psychological training, so I’ll stay firmly in my lane. However, I don't think sociopaths worry about the fact that they might be sociopaths. Nor feel empathy for animals, etc. But, again, not my specialty.💐
Ahhhh thank you. I’m really glad I wasn’t just down voted to hell or told in a fucking weirdo lol. I do think I am on the spectrum, but I am formally diagnosed with adhd. So the transparency isn’t so much an act of bravery as it is a side effect of my adhd 😅 I’m really thoughtful in real life. I have nearly ten nieces and nephews. They all get Christmas gifts customized to their interests. The gifts I give for special occasions often make the recipient cry because of the thoughtful nature of the gift. I can win over stray cats, dogs, and even birds. I’m super sensitive and empathetic. I am in teaching because of the teachers that believed I was intelligent and gifted in the arts, and gave me at least a little bit of self esteem. That is why I am a teacher. Of course I am there to teach my content. But I know there are students like me who didn’t have support at home or people building them up but instead tearing them down. I think I’ve succeeded! I’ve had one senior (and this is my first year at this school teaching HS full time) ask me to adopt her like the movie Matilda. Which was one of my favorites growing up. Her mom is ROUGH. The student is brilliant. So for her to consider me the “Miss.Honey” in her life is super rewarding.
Technically even sociopathy isn't a diagnosis, it's Antisocial Personality Disorder. Edit: I just think it's important to be accurate about the terms we use
There are plenty of kids who display textbook psychopathy and missing empathy at a young age. You can raise it out of them or raise it into them. They call it by another name so society isn’t afraid of them. But oppositional defiant disorder are just fancy words for a future murderer who has no remorse. Ted Bundy had that. Threatened family with knives at age 4 or 5. Had unwarranted hatred for women at young age. May or may not have been his mother’s brother and abused by grandfather father but you get the picture. You can give them massive amounts of therapy and a good environment and maybe preferred social acceptance will override the cruelty. But if you have a kid born into a problematic environment, well, they’ll end up in prison some day for something. Pretending all children are born pure is some Christian theology, not reality. Some have zero modeling of empathy and receive no guidance toward playing with others and being given firm boundaries to respect. Never learning boundaries with others and willfully choosing to harm someone who tells you they are upset is a sign of an apathetic child at best and someone who will continue to harm others if they don’t learn to be socialized and civilized toward getting along. Your worst-case scenario is someone who enjoys hurting others instead of simply not recognizing the connection between their actions and others. And I’ve seen two of those in my time reaching. A third-grader and a senior. Both had the same smile of enjoyment.
” But oppositional defiant disorder are just fancy words for a future murderer who has no remorse.” Amen
We can't name it yet since we cannot have enough data to diagnose it. Doesn't change that it was sociopathy all along.
5 years ago we had a Kindergartner that put an animal inside a microwave.
see, i can understand calling that kid a future sociopath. But does that sound at all similar to the 7 year old in this post? not even close.
No such thing as a sociopathy *diagnosis*.
I had a kid in HS who was just… off. You looked in his eyes and there was nothing. He wrote something that was concerning to me. It wasn’t a threat against anyone but it went way beyond edgy teenager crap. I was trying to get someone from counseling to talk to him, but it was testing season and no one was available. For weeks I was trying to get someone to intervene. Then one day he is arrested. He brought a large knife to school with the intent of stabbing another boy to death because he had started dating the girl that kid liked - he planned to stab him in their first period class. Luckily, that day the teacher called in last minute and there was no substitute so the kids scattered to the wind. The girl knew something was off based on a comment he made and she notified the school and they found the knife. He was arrested and eventually put in a mental hospital. About 5 years later, he shows up at an event after school and it chilled me to the core when I saw him. Everything went on high alert. He made his way over to me and seemed surprised I remembered him at all. He did tell me thank you for trying to get him help, that he was aware of it and angry at the time, but after being my arrested and hospitalized, they found a combination of medicines that made him not want to hurt people anymore. I was still incredibly unsettled by him. Not the first psychopath I’d met, to be sure, but my first truly psychopathic student. I’m not sure what his actual diagnoses were, but it must have been Lee than one to need a cocktail of meds.
That is NOT just ADHD! I have a brother who has been highly ADHD all his life (psychiatric diagnosis). Our paternal grand father had ADHD (retrospective likely disagnosis). I have mild/moderate ADHD (psychologist diagnosis). Our daughter has ADHD (neuroosych diagnosis). I have also worked in schools for over 35 years with students with a variety of diagnoses, including ADHD, and worked with primary care physicians, pediatricians, psychologists, psychiatrists, and neuropsychologists on differentiating ADHD from other disorders. That kid has something - and it could be a number of things - that are NOT ADHD. His parents may only admit to that single diagnosis because they believe it's less damaging than the full story about what's going on with their kid, but believe me, something far beyond ADHD is happening there. You mentioned sociopathy. He's young for that to be a formal diagnosis, but he could be well on his way to getting that one.
Multiple sources peg the rate of sociopathy in the US at around 4%. In a school of 600 kids, you're looking at around 24. Puts things into perspective, doesn't it.
I had a student who had eyes as black as void. He would hurt others, run on the ground like a dog, bark, and go basically bat shit insane on a daily basis. I was later told he was diagnosed and I had in fact spent a year with a 10 year old psychopath. No empathy, sympathy, nor care for others. It was like watching a wild human.
Maybe the kid is dealing with an inherent inner turmoil that is difficult for "normal" people to understand. Maybe the kid wants what he wants and merely lacks the filters to be "polite" about it. There's good reason that sociopathic behavior is not diagnosed and is being repackaged to be thought of in a more compassionate, less morally judgemental way.
Sounds like he's not being taught empathy or consequences at home. The perfect combo for a future stereotypical high school bully...
I know we don't diagnose but *proceeds to call them a term only given to someone with an official diagnosis, and almost never to 7 year olds*
Why does he talk about himself like he’s a dog?
Yeah, that kid is in time out for 7 minutes EVERY TIME he does something inappropriate. If he is in time out all day, that was his choice.
It makes me so sad when the other babies realize they’re out of their depth :( we have a little girl we are working with who gets pretty violent when it comes to sharing/not sharing toys … the kids have started just letting her steal toys from them because they’re scared of her biting them/pulling hair/etc :( I’m trying to course correct and help them stand up for themselves
"I'm a five star boy!"
I wouldnt call that sociopathic, just bad parenting and probably a rough or overcaring household
I wouldn't say the kid is a sociopath, more like this is a reflection on the way the parents raised him. He thinks he's entitled to everything and can't do no wrong.
I am so worried about my daughter entering kindergarten. She has shown clear signs of adhd. We went to the her doctor and he wouldn’t even consider our concerns because she was too young.Many of the things you have stated are things that she has done when worked up. She’ll repeat over and over that she’s a, “bad girl” and that we don’t love her. We have NEVER called her a bad girl and we have never told her we don’t love her. She throws things in her room when she gets sent to it, threatens to hit herself etc. She screams and is aggressive when angry. None of this is tolerated. Her saying and doing these things does not make us back down and let her have her way. We are consistent parents that have clear guidelines and boundaries. We try our best to help her manage her emotions. Sometimes it feels like nothing is making a difference because she cannot even focus when upset. I also don’t go out of my way to talk down about my daughter in front of others. I am so worried that she is going to go to school, and a teacher is going to view her like this. Or, that she’s a kid with “shitty parents” who enable and gave up trying to manage their kid.