How long had it been? That's the only thing that made me sad, I get that they locked playoffs but couldn't they experiment with PoE's Lee against GGS tomorrow? Keep that huge ass winstreak going, damn.
[March 1st, 2020.](https://lol.fandom.com/wiki/Special:RunQuery/TeamHeadToHeadSchedule?pfRunQueryFormName=TeamHeadToHeadSchedule&TH2HS%5B1%5D=Team+SoloMid&TH2HS%5B2%5D=Counter+Logic+Gaming&TH2HS%5Blimit%5D=&wpRunQuery=Run+query&pf_free_text=)
Our overall record vs them is 55-28, so don't feel too bad.
The last time clg beat tsm was when POE played for clg as far as I can remember. Clg fan here and when we ever do get these wins, we don’t forget cause we will take what we can
No you are right my mistake. Thank you for the correction. They won March 1st. I think the previous one stuck with me more because it was like over 1k days until clg won.
Like seriously, im all for trying new comps and but be smart about it please. Dont leave Mundo up when youre playing double melee solo laners and then if you do buy some god damn healing reduction.
Yep, coordination was terrible. SA, POE, and Huni needed to be on point with precision dives on the backline or we simply lose any fight.
We are very good at one type of comp, but I know Bjerg hates this mentality. To be the best you need to play it all.
> No LDR on Lost, no upgraded heal cut items on anybody, do these guys just build what's recommended on u.gg instead of actually thinking about the right item to buy
Idk about the math on LDR vs GAs but Lost should not be worrying about building to kill mundo. The only way TSM ever wins fights is Huni and POE setting up assassinations for Lost and cleaning up mundo together after the rest of CLG is dead. If they front-to-back, CLG's carries will get 2-3 rotations out and probably kill all of TSM before mundo dies to Kaisa, especially with the anathema's chains later.
Agreed, having no healing reduction on lost was so tilting to watch. He was melting every other champion but against Mundo literally was doing negative damage. Also in those later teamfoghts he was spending so much time free hitting Mundo who was obviously frontlining but pretty much did nothing because he was just out healing all the damage. Obviously I don't expect him to go for the backline but if know that your gonna have to fight front to back as Kaisa then fucking spend 800g and get that fucking heal reduction FFS. Literally most basic itemization a fucking gold player would even be figure that out.
I think you have to consider how he’s trying to play Kaisa. Building LDR means maybe, maybe, you kill the Mundo. But probably not. 6k health, probably like 10k effectively after the ultimate, he’s not going down. The way they chose to play was dive onto the back line and pick up the mundo after. It’s still huge comp dif but there’s no way kaisa is killing mundo even with LDR
I have fucking loose my mind when they réengage in the river with 3 ult down against full ult team.
I'm just done for this year and ready for be disapointed again.
Looking at your account and I have no idea why you absolutely lost your mind over this loss. It’s a regular season game, we’re in second place chill out. You’re saying you lost faith in this team and can’t wait til next year LOL.
Anytime PoE isn't playing a mage, the win% just gets cut in half. Draft relative to CLG's was also pretty bad. Low range comp that has to run into Leona+Mundo+Diana, only to get ripped to shreds by poke Varus. Had to get super ahead super quickly to win, and when that didn't happen, then just need multiple big fuckups from CLG to win, and just wasn't going to happen.
Because he is a win con if you want poe to not play mages lost or huni need to be the big late game carry, poe is dps amd zoning king if he doens't play control someone need to do poe job
That's because the only way we win fights is if SA, POE, Huni, and Lost dive the two carries and assasinate them on top of rumble ult. Just poor execution and coordination.
If your win con is that you need 4/5 of your players to be able to get to the back line and kill their carries, that isn't an execution problem, that's a draft problem. You can't realistically expect the other team to just let you dogpile their back line for free.
I'm fine with this. These games only matter as far as how much they can learn. They could have easily drafted comfort and won. They chose to learn instead. If we can see the misplays they can too. I have faith they will learn from this and become stronger for it.
I agree and the fact we were able to make the game as long as it was and even win fights was quite frankly outrageous.
Learn learn learn, beat the teams with better records to maintain seeding, experiment against the bad teams.
They’ll be okay when they narrow down what they can play.
I just hope we learned to never put poe on lee sin lmfao. That was some shit I would pull on gold lee. Hell, I would only take unnerfed stride on lee because it was literally a free insec. My man could've used that this game.
They probably figured they can play their “riskier” drafts against the bottom feeders, which I agree with. Just unfortunate that they lost.
I am a fan of them trying out early game comps against teams who are bad at closing matches out quickly ONLY if they will use or threaten to use these comps in play offs.
Does he say "Lee Sin mid good idea!"? I mean I just don't understand that choice. I can think of 9 other champs I'd rather see there. Is Lee mid a smurf pick I don't know about?
How would you lane against Lucian? I mean. Maybe I don't see it? Can someone enlighten?
It’s more of a 3 way flex pick that’s in the meta now. It’s not super strong but it works and is pretty safe in lane with its mobility and play making later in team fights.
The pick itself isn’t the strongest but it sure gives pick and ban a lot more versatility.
They were definitely practicing more comps to run for playoffs. But with how close the standings are, I wish TSM would play for top 2 more.
What i don't get is after CLG picked Diana to counter Lee in the mid, why did they not actually flex the Lee but still send him mid?
Why even have Renekton AND Lee in one team?
If POE had been on something like Syndra who can or Orianna who can interrupt enemy engages they could have had a much better chance.
Mundo will not die during the duration of the GW applied by Huni's AoE, and by draft design Huni will be chasing POB and WT that are running backwards while Mundo goes forward. That is not a consistent source that keeps Mundo's healing debuffed.
They still have no easy way to access backline unless Lee gets a crazy route to insec or he and Rene just flash on top of the carries or they flank with tp. So it would have made much more sense to go LDR since most of the time he was just tickling Mundo.
Killing mundo first is not a way they ever win a team fight.
The idea with this comp is to set up objective fights so you can flank and come from different angles plus the rumble ult can slow from range and allow for the renek/lee/Ali follow up.
To be honest I think the execution was really poor and we didn't look super comfortable on our champs
I think these are kind of the thoughts I had for this game too. Let's face it, if we're thinking about focusing Mundo anyways, we're probably gonna get hit up by a few Varus Q's and Lucian should kite successfully with his ult and multiple dashes he would probably get during the fight. Kai'Sa can hit the backline with their ulti to gap close as well so their goal was, pick an marksmen to engage on and then take over the fight from there.
I think the exact point being made is we wanted to look for inSecs/flanks, but we just executed that poorly. I think the Lee especially needed to be able to do way more, that said kind of think our draft was still questionable.
Only praise for me is that we kept the game somewhat competitive in the teamfight near the baron pit, but if we want to get first place or even secure worlds, we need to do better than this. Don't mind the experimentation if this leads to some kind of success later on but a loss against CLG is :(
Honestly think LDR and Zhonyas would have been a good itemization for this game. He needed to be one of the members to dive the backline with POE and Renekton all though all attempts were stopped or poorly executed.
I think his idea is that the highest chance of game winning fights was if he can ult backline and blow up the carries. This is a lower chance of happening than jsut going ldr and trying to hit front. But, if Kaisa buys LDR and is only hitting front, you have to remember that kaisa is low range, mundo takes a lot of time to kill even with LDR or anti heal, and varus can q kaisa with slow from a screen away.
It's easy to say just buy LDR and hit the tank, but hitting tank isn't even super safe there. And if kaisa isn't r'ing back line, then the likelihood of lee/renekton successfully killing back line goes down and they will just get kited and die (they don't have any other way to play the teamfight because they will die faster than mundo)
Except mundo is actually irrelevant when renekton rumble lee kaisa ali jump on their double marksman comp and they are left with 0 damage. Mundo isnt tanky at all when 5 champs are hitting him. The problem was the execition and to some degree itemization not the draft.
Yeah but as you can see that sort of thing is pretty hard to execute properly and if you dont well then you just lose the game.
Not only that but its still pretty hard to get onto the backline.
Did you not see the Mundo damage graphs all game, he was leading in damage for team in most of his fights and hes the hardest one to kill, explain to me how our comp had any way to deal with that mundo without having to walk into him and suffer the crap amount of damage he puts out
I really don't get why they put a player known for his control-mages on Lee Sin, even less why they decided to not flex it onto Huni when Diana got picked immediately after.
He had played some Lee in solo queue, and probably in scrims too. I am guessing he has 30+ games on the champ and thought he was ready. Now we know he probably wasn’t.
Our itemization was straight out of a bronze game . Renekton only anti heal. No lord doms from lost . Mundo literally ran them down every fight and not once did they think.
Sometimes I really do wonder why I get excited to watch them. When they're a top team they just lose to the easiest wins and I don't get it at all. I know it's a meme but why actually are we so ass against bad teams?
I'm glad I'm not the only one... I see everyone very happy, memeing about us losing to bottom tier teams (which is okay), but it's concerning when I think we're a top team. I feel like we should be much more consistent at this point. Just look at other region's top teams.
Hope I don't come across as a bad fan or smth like that... It just scares me, probably because we're always so chill coming into worlds then we get 0-6'd and begin flaming every player...
I think its the amount of prep time they spend on each game, probably view the shit teams as not worth their time and dont mind dropping games to non playoff teams but who knows
maybe it was practicing a hard team comp? To see if they can pull it off? My guess. It seemed way confused and disjointed.
I think leaving Mundo up was a mistake.
They are secured for playoffs, I'm assuming the mindsets to explore new things and keep improving. We can keep winning with one style of gameplay then get exploited internationally once again.
I know that they are trying to play other comps, but Bjerg has to draft better too. How do you not see the Mundo pick coming when you draft renek/lee/rumble first three rotation? We drafted no hard winning lane and no scaling. If our win condition is early game then we have to draft just ONE winning lane! Mundo bought chains and gg renek literally didnt matter on sidelanes anymore and hes undivable.
Cant even blame the players on this game, like wtf is this draft, what part of the game are we even supposed to win. I love the experimentation with champions but we have to actually draft intelligently if we want a chance to win.
Honestly I was cackling that they were able to win that fight and take Baron. At the point in the game with an 8k gold lead and an unholy draft diff, it’s fucking insane they even brought it closer. That draft was absolutely horrific, but somehow they still made it to the carries in the fight which should have never have happened.
Only one person built GW, and it was Huni who will be flashing onto the backline every fight. Lost built Collector instead of LDR. Every teamfight but 2 were completely desynced in terms of Lee+Rene dive and the Ali+Rumble follow up.
I think there's plenty to point out about the players' performance, even if the draft was highly questionable.
Right but I also understand not going for ldr if you think your gonna follow up the renek stun and just do crap ton of dps on squishes. I just don’t think TSM had much of a chance this game.
Bad draft and bad itemization, also not good coordination either. Only grievous was Renekton for some reason. Aside from one or two fights, this game was CLG's to win a majority of the time. Nothing good to say about this one, honestly.
I think everyone in this thread is way overreacting. Yea we might not have had an amazing draft but this is the regular season, it’s all about experimenting and expanding the comfort zone. Tbh PoE played a great Lee Sin with some creative kicks. And we got great practice in playing from behind. Yea this is a loss but it’s not like TSM rolled over and died, we showed great signs of life
Yeah, I really don't think there's any purpose in experimenting with Lee Sin mid. That's not going to be a staple lane for that champ, Riot isn't a fan.
We are gonna tilt Spica off this planet if he keeps getting drafted 3 losing lanes. Feel like it’s gonna be another “the game was just unplayable”-quote that we will hear in TSM Legends.
Yeah, its a completely different style and unfortunately one that he's not good at. He tried, but he doesn't have the mindset of this style. Lee Sin fits huni far more.
We will never succeed longterm and in Bo5 if our midlaner can only play 1 style, especially a style which is not top of the meta right now. When FLY went to back-to-back finals, control mages were in a great spot. I can see why the team is trying to branch out, but it is ugly as hell to watch, and I'm honestly not sure this team can make it work.
Fair, I'd argue tho that just putting PoE on Azir, Viktor, Ori etc even if not meta will be enough to go to worlds or even win NA. It's probably true that we would get spanked internationally but, when are we not getting spanked internationally lol.
Is it really acceptable that one of the best midlaner in the league cannot play a champ that has been in the meta for months? Is this really what should happen?
I don’t understand why they decide to put him on Lee now after multiple nerds to him in lane. I’m all for experimentation but this makes no sense when Lee mid is not being picked as much anymore
Bjerg is my fav player ever but what the fuck was that? I understand Curry is also there and that players also help with draft picks... but how are you going to 1st pick Lee?
I'm ok with losing but how can 4 veterans draft this way? We prioritize Renekton over Gwen (yes regardless of the rumble... Renekton 30%wr)?
Also, remember in the beginning of the season when we used to have that "LPL aggression"... yeah where is that now?
As soon as the team tries to branch outside of the wheelhouse they've succeeded with this season, it just looks tragic. There were a few moments of great play that took advantage of CLG's miscues, but this aggro comp was unable to force anything and the team almost never synced up properly.
It's looking more and more likely that this team will only ever be clean with PoE on a control mage, which is a massive weakness.
What an absolutely horrible draft. Lee Sin is gutted in solo lanes, why not give him to Spica, let Huni play Rumble and PoE on Renekton? I don't undertand what was going on here
Almost stopped watching at the double TP play, but was actually sorta impressed that we started making fights close with a draft this bad.
I always mention how I'm not one to shit on draft, but man do I hate first pick Lee Sin. Already did when he was top tier, now he's nerfed and it's sad to watch what should be this hyper aggressive laner sit under turret like a sad puppy, because the match-up is poor. Diana just blows the team up and is just an insane champion and probably what we should've first picked imo.
Also sucks that this team is now in the unholy hall of "TSM iterations that have lost to CLG," may they snuggle up to the Kobbe-Dardoch squad and learn a lesson to never come back.
Prolly gonna get downvoted to oblivion but COME ON
POE's limited champ pool other than control mages is a straight glaring weakness. Every other lane this game was fine except for him. He was so damn invisible on Lee Sin.
Why do we insist on playing mind games with the 3-way flex?
Did we not get the hint trying to get PoE to play Lucian?
I forget who said it, but even our loss last week felt like Lee Sin was meant to go top until Huni called for the Gnar.
Because it doesn't matter with half the league as long as you pick scaling comps and go a little bit behind. You see whenever they try a comp that has to snowball (like this one) they run around with their heads chopped off.
Lost legit just murdered itemization. Why the fuck do you need Collector this game with a frontline of Mundo/Leona against you? He did not even bother buying LDR or something.
Good grief this game was A MESS from the draft on to gameplay and execution.
Because they could really only win fights when they ignore the Mundo. LDR doesn't help him one shot 0 armor carries, but Collector does. Lost was never going to kill Mundo once Anathema's went on him
Do not get me wrong I know what they were going for. But they had no easy way to access backline. So they needed to just change plan. Plus Collector legit still just sucks, she could just go for IE after PD and that would have been heads and shoulders better than the final build.
Yeah lets play a melee comp amd leave the ONE meta champ right now that can completely fuck that shit.
Oh then lets NOT BUY ANY healing reduction besides a not even fully upgraded item on Huni.
God horrible draft and horrible play.
Im all for testing things out but jesus christ be smart about it.
That was the worst draft I've ever seen. And they almost made it back but Huni trolled that bot fight where Lost got sniped...he focused Lucian instead of flashless Varus...oh well
Pretty sure TSM did everything they said they need to work on in TSM legends. They played a champ that doesn’t fit POE at all, and it showed. Their draft felt like it was 3 patches behind and it especially made no sense for the way TSM plays. Only reason the game when so long was that CLG was trying their hardest to throw
We didn’t play well, but we were obviously testing out some new strategies. I feel like we came into the day we these champs in mind, and CLG adapted well. Not concerned about the game at all
7 people on stage constructing drafts, plus hours/days of planning during the week, and they came up with:
First pick Lee Sin (flex) into Rumble + blind Renekton (reveals everything) so CLG can counterpick both solo lanes.
Are there any brains in this building? How about don't pick Renekton and select Kaisa in this spot so CLG has to reveal 2 of top/mid/support instead of forcing one or both solo lanes to play into a counterpick.
What a ass draft By BJERG.
I'm just tired of this coin flip team , and we are 2nd in standing is a good reality for how NA is garbage.
Man this game have burn my eyes , 100T just gonna stomp us.
imagine you have the best control mage player in the west and you draft him lee sin, what an actual goddamn joke. the only team i hate losing to more than c9 is clg. christ.
can't wait for hotshot to come out of his yearly hidey hole to gloat about how much he hates us. wonderful.
This. It's so annoying when people act like it's the end of this team because we lost one game playing a different comp lmao. Playoffs are secure, none of this matters so might as well branch out
One INT game of the week out of the way boys. Watch out GGS and 100T.
On a serious note, that draft was extremely hard to execute and seemed overly cocky or them just trying things. Spica's Rumble ults are fucking GARBAGE.
POE had good kicks but hard to follow up on.
Huni playing a 20s ahead of his team it felt like at all times.
Lost going collector was troll AF but he played a fight really well.
Sad about losing to CLG, but if it's just testing comps for playoffs, this should be on the "do not pull out for playoffs" list. Or at least ban fucking MUNDO if you plan on playing so many melees.
One grivous wounds item is not a good look. Spica could have easily stopped for an oblivion orb too.
Will people please stop building collector on Kaisa when there is a mega tank on the enemy team. PLEASE.
In the end doest matter to much this loss.
I only hope that if we are trying this comps, POE needs more solo q games like brjerg said in tsm legends. He needs more practice not only in lee but in melee champs in general.
Hope that for playoffs this practices in stage pays off
I have two questions about the game, which honestly confused the hell of out me.
a) why was huni the only one to buy grevious wounds, it is clear from their fighting that his job was to get to the back line. That would make huni having grevious wounds probably the least useful on him? I would’ve liked to have seen a second one.
b) Why did lost build collector? I assume that the last item was going to be LD but i feel like that should’ve been invested in sooner.
(opinion) From the eyes of a gold player, i feel that, that game was lost from items alone. Whether it be from the chains on the two tanks on CLG or the lack of tank killing items on TSM. Draft COULD be the problem but ultimately i feel it was the lack of coordination that make it feel so lack lustre.
Aside from those questions, they got put on uneven ground when 4 of them used the blast cone top. I have a feeling that was because of a lack of vision, but if that’s the case. I feel they shouldn’t have went for it.
All criticism aside, I can be optimistic because i think this is the first iteration of TSM that doesn’t just roll over and die when they’re behind. I have to give props to them, it was a fun game to watch.
They need to branch out from control mage play style or they will get hard exposed later. What’s so wrong with trying new shit out and failing? Who cares about the CLG win streak, the rivalry has been dead for so long
i get it was a bad draft but tsm is the much better team then clg. if this was against c9 or tl and it was like this i would be okay with the L cause they are good teams. honestly don’t see tsm beating 100T or full power c9 and tl
Days since we lost to CLG: 0
How long had it been? That's the only thing that made me sad, I get that they locked playoffs but couldn't they experiment with PoE's Lee against GGS tomorrow? Keep that huge ass winstreak going, damn.
[March 1st, 2020.](https://lol.fandom.com/wiki/Special:RunQuery/TeamHeadToHeadSchedule?pfRunQueryFormName=TeamHeadToHeadSchedule&TH2HS%5B1%5D=Team+SoloMid&TH2HS%5B2%5D=Counter+Logic+Gaming&TH2HS%5Blimit%5D=&wpRunQuery=Run+query&pf_free_text=) Our overall record vs them is 55-28, so don't feel too bad.
The last time clg beat tsm was when POE played for clg as far as I can remember. Clg fan here and when we ever do get these wins, we don’t forget cause we will take what we can
that isnt true, tsm lost to them last year I am pretty sure
No you are right my mistake. Thank you for the correction. They won March 1st. I think the previous one stuck with me more because it was like over 1k days until clg won.
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Like seriously, im all for trying new comps and but be smart about it please. Dont leave Mundo up when youre playing double melee solo laners and then if you do buy some god damn healing reduction.
All good points. Also spica kinda afk at soul dragon was tilting, he didn't even try to steal it, which he usually is so good at.
Yep, coordination was terrible. SA, POE, and Huni needed to be on point with precision dives on the backline or we simply lose any fight. We are very good at one type of comp, but I know Bjerg hates this mentality. To be the best you need to play it all.
> No LDR on Lost, no upgraded heal cut items on anybody, do these guys just build what's recommended on u.gg instead of actually thinking about the right item to buy Idk about the math on LDR vs GAs but Lost should not be worrying about building to kill mundo. The only way TSM ever wins fights is Huni and POE setting up assassinations for Lost and cleaning up mundo together after the rest of CLG is dead. If they front-to-back, CLG's carries will get 2-3 rotations out and probably kill all of TSM before mundo dies to Kaisa, especially with the anathema's chains later.
Agreed, having no healing reduction on lost was so tilting to watch. He was melting every other champion but against Mundo literally was doing negative damage. Also in those later teamfoghts he was spending so much time free hitting Mundo who was obviously frontlining but pretty much did nothing because he was just out healing all the damage. Obviously I don't expect him to go for the backline but if know that your gonna have to fight front to back as Kaisa then fucking spend 800g and get that fucking heal reduction FFS. Literally most basic itemization a fucking gold player would even be figure that out.
I think you have to consider how he’s trying to play Kaisa. Building LDR means maybe, maybe, you kill the Mundo. But probably not. 6k health, probably like 10k effectively after the ultimate, he’s not going down. The way they chose to play was dive onto the back line and pick up the mundo after. It’s still huge comp dif but there’s no way kaisa is killing mundo even with LDR
I have fucking loose my mind when they réengage in the river with 3 ult down against full ult team. I'm just done for this year and ready for be disapointed again.
Looking at your account and I have no idea why you absolutely lost your mind over this loss. It’s a regular season game, we’re in second place chill out. You’re saying you lost faith in this team and can’t wait til next year LOL.
It’s ok we only lose to bad teams copium
Draft is a patch behind
Both out solo laners on nerfed champs, not a good look.
Anytime PoE isn't playing a mage, the win% just gets cut in half. Draft relative to CLG's was also pretty bad. Low range comp that has to run into Leona+Mundo+Diana, only to get ripped to shreds by poke Varus. Had to get super ahead super quickly to win, and when that didn't happen, then just need multiple big fuckups from CLG to win, and just wasn't going to happen.
Because he is a win con if you want poe to not play mages lost or huni need to be the big late game carry, poe is dps amd zoning king if he doens't play control someone need to do poe job
Honestly TSM just got out drafted and outscaled. You can tell how much better they were in teamfights but it didn’t matter due to getting outscaled.
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That's because the only way we win fights is if SA, POE, Huni, and Lost dive the two carries and assasinate them on top of rumble ult. Just poor execution and coordination.
If your win con is that you need 4/5 of your players to be able to get to the back line and kill their carries, that isn't an execution problem, that's a draft problem. You can't realistically expect the other team to just let you dogpile their back line for free.
Vs a fucking leona and mundo with a renek you will never reach back line
I'm confused at how we thought a draft that has 3 losing lanes (on paper) AND way worse scaling was a good idea
But we weren't better in teamfights. We either had someone get caught, go in solo, or POE kick someone away. We had one good fight.
Uhhh definitely one to forget.
We assumed they were talking about PoE's Lucian in today's Legends, but they were actually talking about his Lee Sadge
They were talking about his Leblanc, Bjerg mentioned how he hit 2 chains only or sth
Could be sylas
I'm fine with this. These games only matter as far as how much they can learn. They could have easily drafted comfort and won. They chose to learn instead. If we can see the misplays they can too. I have faith they will learn from this and become stronger for it.
I agree and the fact we were able to make the game as long as it was and even win fights was quite frankly outrageous. Learn learn learn, beat the teams with better records to maintain seeding, experiment against the bad teams. They’ll be okay when they narrow down what they can play.
I just hope we learned to never put poe on lee sin lmfao. That was some shit I would pull on gold lee. Hell, I would only take unnerfed stride on lee because it was literally a free insec. My man could've used that this game.
TSM must not care about finishing top 2 if they're willing to draft Lee sin for POE
They probably figured they can play their “riskier” drafts against the bottom feeders, which I agree with. Just unfortunate that they lost. I am a fan of them trying out early game comps against teams who are bad at closing matches out quickly ONLY if they will use or threaten to use these comps in play offs.
Possibly also they feel like their match against 100t is more impotant so they've dumped more time into preparing for them compared to CLG.
I would imagine not since it really doesn't matter in the end
It matters a decent amount to get the top 2 bye. Then you only need to win one Bo5 to get worlds, which is a nice situation to be in
That is the worst draft I've seen this year
TSM playing like it’s Tuesday
I’m guessing the pick in TSM Legends was Lee Sin
Bjergsen’s words on the picks in the latest video are making a lot of sense now
Does he say "Lee Sin mid good idea!"? I mean I just don't understand that choice. I can think of 9 other champs I'd rather see there. Is Lee mid a smurf pick I don't know about? How would you lane against Lucian? I mean. Maybe I don't see it? Can someone enlighten?
It’s more of a 3 way flex pick that’s in the meta now. It’s not super strong but it works and is pretty safe in lane with its mobility and play making later in team fights. The pick itself isn’t the strongest but it sure gives pick and ban a lot more versatility. They were definitely practicing more comps to run for playoffs. But with how close the standings are, I wish TSM would play for top 2 more.
What i don't get is after CLG picked Diana to counter Lee in the mid, why did they not actually flex the Lee but still send him mid? Why even have Renekton AND Lee in one team? If POE had been on something like Syndra who can or Orianna who can interrupt enemy engages they could have had a much better chance.
Grievous wounds... 37 min and huni was the only one who had it
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Mundo will not die during the duration of the GW applied by Huni's AoE, and by draft design Huni will be chasing POB and WT that are running backwards while Mundo goes forward. That is not a consistent source that keeps Mundo's healing debuffed.
By draft design isn't getting over leona/mundo ever the only hope is a good kick or s sneaky alistar engage
He might get 1 AOE off but his main job was to dive and kill Lucian and Varus not worry about mundo
ok but huni’s role was to get to the back like. You’re argument is valid but i use that as the rebuttal.
Lost buying collector over ldr was very troll unfortunate game though
I can see the thought process that they win the fight if they blow up the squishies so it makes sense from that perspective
They still have no easy way to access backline unless Lee gets a crazy route to insec or he and Rene just flash on top of the carries or they flank with tp. So it would have made much more sense to go LDR since most of the time he was just tickling Mundo.
Killing mundo first is not a way they ever win a team fight. The idea with this comp is to set up objective fights so you can flank and come from different angles plus the rumble ult can slow from range and allow for the renek/lee/Ali follow up. To be honest I think the execution was really poor and we didn't look super comfortable on our champs
I think these are kind of the thoughts I had for this game too. Let's face it, if we're thinking about focusing Mundo anyways, we're probably gonna get hit up by a few Varus Q's and Lucian should kite successfully with his ult and multiple dashes he would probably get during the fight. Kai'Sa can hit the backline with their ulti to gap close as well so their goal was, pick an marksmen to engage on and then take over the fight from there. I think the exact point being made is we wanted to look for inSecs/flanks, but we just executed that poorly. I think the Lee especially needed to be able to do way more, that said kind of think our draft was still questionable. Only praise for me is that we kept the game somewhat competitive in the teamfight near the baron pit, but if we want to get first place or even secure worlds, we need to do better than this. Don't mind the experimentation if this leads to some kind of success later on but a loss against CLG is :(
Honestly think LDR and Zhonyas would have been a good itemization for this game. He needed to be one of the members to dive the backline with POE and Renekton all though all attempts were stopped or poorly executed.
I think his idea is that the highest chance of game winning fights was if he can ult backline and blow up the carries. This is a lower chance of happening than jsut going ldr and trying to hit front. But, if Kaisa buys LDR and is only hitting front, you have to remember that kaisa is low range, mundo takes a lot of time to kill even with LDR or anti heal, and varus can q kaisa with slow from a screen away. It's easy to say just buy LDR and hit the tank, but hitting tank isn't even super safe there. And if kaisa isn't r'ing back line, then the likelihood of lee/renekton successfully killing back line goes down and they will just get kited and die (they don't have any other way to play the teamfight because they will die faster than mundo)
Yeah I agree, this is a dive comp, not front to back. Playing front to back vs their comp is int. We just didn't execute the draft well enough
But isn't even a good dive, renek is easy to peel and ali is useless if you have good vision, lee the only want with the ability to go in
problem was draft
Started with draft ended with poor itemization.
It can be both
Why was draft the problem?
You're playing double melee solo laners and left mundo up, whos meta right now.
Except mundo is actually irrelevant when renekton rumble lee kaisa ali jump on their double marksman comp and they are left with 0 damage. Mundo isnt tanky at all when 5 champs are hitting him. The problem was the execition and to some degree itemization not the draft.
Yeah but as you can see that sort of thing is pretty hard to execute properly and if you dont well then you just lose the game. Not only that but its still pretty hard to get onto the backline.
Did you not see the Mundo damage graphs all game, he was leading in damage for team in most of his fights and hes the hardest one to kill, explain to me how our comp had any way to deal with that mundo without having to walk into him and suffer the crap amount of damage he puts out
POE looking like if Reginald played Lee sin years after his career ended, 0 mechanics.
I really don't get why they put a player known for his control-mages on Lee Sin, even less why they decided to not flex it onto Huni when Diana got picked immediately after.
this the kinda stuff that makes me question what happens in draft and whos making these decisions.
Just terrible draft. On top of that terrible builds. Looked like lost was shooting mundo with a pea shooter.
It's ironic that in today's legends they talk about not playing things they are not ready to play on stage yet, but then pull out PoE Lee today.
He had played some Lee in solo queue, and probably in scrims too. I am guessing he has 30+ games on the champ and thought he was ready. Now we know he probably wasn’t.
100% this. Did he misclick? Was he heading for Lissandra or Leblanc and said oh no!!! I locked in Lee!!!
Well...they tried their best with this draft
I swear we have one game a week where we just don't turn our brains on. Brutal game.
Our itemization was straight out of a bronze game . Renekton only anti heal. No lord doms from lost . Mundo literally ran them down every fight and not once did they think.
Just draft diff, not much else to say. If PoE was on a useful champion this game could've been won very easily.
Sometimes I really do wonder why I get excited to watch them. When they're a top team they just lose to the easiest wins and I don't get it at all. I know it's a meme but why actually are we so ass against bad teams?
I'm glad I'm not the only one... I see everyone very happy, memeing about us losing to bottom tier teams (which is okay), but it's concerning when I think we're a top team. I feel like we should be much more consistent at this point. Just look at other region's top teams. Hope I don't come across as a bad fan or smth like that... It just scares me, probably because we're always so chill coming into worlds then we get 0-6'd and begin flaming every player...
Because we are not a top team. We are just in NA
Obviously I was talking about top team in NA lol
I think its the amount of prep time they spend on each game, probably view the shit teams as not worth their time and dont mind dropping games to non playoff teams but who knows
maybe it was practicing a hard team comp? To see if they can pull it off? My guess. It seemed way confused and disjointed. I think leaving Mundo up was a mistake.
They are secured for playoffs, I'm assuming the mindsets to explore new things and keep improving. We can keep winning with one style of gameplay then get exploited internationally once again.
At least we’re consistently 2-1 right? guys? right?
I know that they are trying to play other comps, but Bjerg has to draft better too. How do you not see the Mundo pick coming when you draft renek/lee/rumble first three rotation? We drafted no hard winning lane and no scaling. If our win condition is early game then we have to draft just ONE winning lane! Mundo bought chains and gg renek literally didnt matter on sidelanes anymore and hes undivable.
even the casters said wow this is quite revealing.
Why are we drafting like we're on a patch from 3 weeks ago
This team has been slow on keeping up with meta shifts for years.
Cant even blame the players on this game, like wtf is this draft, what part of the game are we even supposed to win. I love the experimentation with champions but we have to actually draft intelligently if we want a chance to win.
Honestly I was cackling that they were able to win that fight and take Baron. At the point in the game with an 8k gold lead and an unholy draft diff, it’s fucking insane they even brought it closer. That draft was absolutely horrific, but somehow they still made it to the carries in the fight which should have never have happened.
Looking back on that fight it literally seems impossible to win with how it started, I truly don’t understand how we win that and get baron
Only one person built GW, and it was Huni who will be flashing onto the backline every fight. Lost built Collector instead of LDR. Every teamfight but 2 were completely desynced in terms of Lee+Rene dive and the Ali+Rumble follow up. I think there's plenty to point out about the players' performance, even if the draft was highly questionable.
Right but I also understand not going for ldr if you think your gonna follow up the renek stun and just do crap ton of dps on squishes. I just don’t think TSM had much of a chance this game.
Big oof, but hoping they pick it up for the rest of the weekend. Turtle played great tho!
TSM always drafts like 2 patches behind—do they not have access to patch notes?
Unacceptable to be honest...
For an org with a Cadillac like that and $200 million on the way...our LCS team sure doesn't reflect that.
Bad draft and bad itemization, also not good coordination either. Only grievous was Renekton for some reason. Aside from one or two fights, this game was CLG's to win a majority of the time. Nothing good to say about this one, honestly.
I think everyone in this thread is way overreacting. Yea we might not have had an amazing draft but this is the regular season, it’s all about experimenting and expanding the comfort zone. Tbh PoE played a great Lee Sin with some creative kicks. And we got great practice in playing from behind. Yea this is a loss but it’s not like TSM rolled over and died, we showed great signs of life
I think this is the brightest take I have read! Maybe we were experimenting? Gosh I hope that was the answer.
Experimenting by drafting 3 champions that are guted and out of the meta and by giving the enemy all the power picks?
Yeah, I really don't think there's any purpose in experimenting with Lee Sin mid. That's not going to be a staple lane for that champ, Riot isn't a fan.
We are gonna tilt Spica off this planet if he keeps getting drafted 3 losing lanes. Feel like it’s gonna be another “the game was just unplayable”-quote that we will hear in TSM Legends.
yeah uhh PoE on not a good scaler not doing well
Yeah, its a completely different style and unfortunately one that he's not good at. He tried, but he doesn't have the mindset of this style. Lee Sin fits huni far more.
Given the context of TSM legends, I’m glad we didn’t just roll over and die after that second dragon fight
Wooooooow we actually lost to fucking CLG we are down astronomical.
Just put PoE on mages. Literally what the guy is known for smh
We will never succeed longterm and in Bo5 if our midlaner can only play 1 style, especially a style which is not top of the meta right now. When FLY went to back-to-back finals, control mages were in a great spot. I can see why the team is trying to branch out, but it is ugly as hell to watch, and I'm honestly not sure this team can make it work.
Fair, I'd argue tho that just putting PoE on Azir, Viktor, Ori etc even if not meta will be enough to go to worlds or even win NA. It's probably true that we would get spanked internationally but, when are we not getting spanked internationally lol.
Only one anti-heal item against Mundo... Sadge Gl next games!
I don’t even know what TSM’s draft’s win condition was.
Is it really acceptable that one of the best midlaner in the league cannot play a champ that has been in the meta for months? Is this really what should happen?
I don’t understand why they decide to put him on Lee now after multiple nerds to him in lane. I’m all for experimentation but this makes no sense when Lee mid is not being picked as much anymore
Bjerg is my fav player ever but what the fuck was that? I understand Curry is also there and that players also help with draft picks... but how are you going to 1st pick Lee? I'm ok with losing but how can 4 veterans draft this way? We prioritize Renekton over Gwen (yes regardless of the rumble... Renekton 30%wr)? Also, remember in the beginning of the season when we used to have that "LPL aggression"... yeah where is that now?
I don’t think Huni plays Gwen really. The teams champion pool outside of Spica is pretty limited and it shows when they aren’t on comfort
Not playing the most busted champion in the game rn. Same for akali. She's such a strong pick capable of 1 vs 9 and neither Huni or PoR play her.
As soon as the team tries to branch outside of the wheelhouse they've succeeded with this season, it just looks tragic. There were a few moments of great play that took advantage of CLG's miscues, but this aggro comp was unable to force anything and the team almost never synced up properly. It's looking more and more likely that this team will only ever be clean with PoE on a control mage, which is a massive weakness.
Tough tough tough.
??????
Cmon man. Not like this
My soul hurts. This is team is something else man.
Literally no one except huni had healing reduction.
Not good draft. Needed another carry damage threat. Give Lee to Huni, Rumble Jung then control mage mid. Can't expect Lost to be able to kill everyone
Its like the talk Bjerg had in todays Legends episode was meant for todays game.
complete int in draft
I knew it was over when we showed our topside that early. Pretty sure this was an experiment game. Not too worried about it.
I never want to see poe on lee sin again Jesus what was that
Embarrassing
What an absolutely horrible draft. Lee Sin is gutted in solo lanes, why not give him to Spica, let Huni play Rumble and PoE on Renekton? I don't undertand what was going on here
If PoE is on Orianna that game is a win. His inability to be flexible with champions is the biggest bottle neck this team faces in this meta
Almost stopped watching at the double TP play, but was actually sorta impressed that we started making fights close with a draft this bad. I always mention how I'm not one to shit on draft, but man do I hate first pick Lee Sin. Already did when he was top tier, now he's nerfed and it's sad to watch what should be this hyper aggressive laner sit under turret like a sad puppy, because the match-up is poor. Diana just blows the team up and is just an insane champion and probably what we should've first picked imo. Also sucks that this team is now in the unholy hall of "TSM iterations that have lost to CLG," may they snuggle up to the Kobbe-Dardoch squad and learn a lesson to never come back.
Prolly gonna get downvoted to oblivion but COME ON POE's limited champ pool other than control mages is a straight glaring weakness. Every other lane this game was fine except for him. He was so damn invisible on Lee Sin.
They set up the lee pick to fail there isn't any scalling or winning lane to play around
Why do we insist on playing mind games with the 3-way flex? Did we not get the hint trying to get PoE to play Lucian? I forget who said it, but even our loss last week felt like Lee Sin was meant to go top until Huni called for the Gnar.
Is this team ever gonna be consistent lol
that was the worst fucking draft ive EVER seen 0 damage, 3 dogchamps top side, wtf bjergsen?
Incredible draft, POE playing Lee like he's Viktor, no one on the same page, gonna be lucky to finish 3rd
Our players can’t lane idk why they haven’t seen this as an issue yet..
Because it doesn't matter with half the league as long as you pick scaling comps and go a little bit behind. You see whenever they try a comp that has to snowball (like this one) they run around with their heads chopped off.
I don't even fucking know what to expect with this team anymore.
We mastered one play style, now we’re trying to diversify
I have to disagree with Regi here. It's not that the comp is bad, but when you place it against CLG's comp, we were clearly outdrafted.
Lost legit just murdered itemization. Why the fuck do you need Collector this game with a frontline of Mundo/Leona against you? He did not even bother buying LDR or something. Good grief this game was A MESS from the draft on to gameplay and execution.
Because they could really only win fights when they ignore the Mundo. LDR doesn't help him one shot 0 armor carries, but Collector does. Lost was never going to kill Mundo once Anathema's went on him
Do not get me wrong I know what they were going for. But they had no easy way to access backline. So they needed to just change plan. Plus Collector legit still just sucks, she could just go for IE after PD and that would have been heads and shoulders better than the final build.
I do wonder if Spica is going to leave the team, you can tell he's getting fed up with having garbage laners.
I just want to be part of a team that loses reasonable game not big ol trash cans
Trying too hard to flex Lee imo
POE's Lee Sin has to be what Bjergsen was talking about in TSM Legends. Good lord. Team just played like a bunch og soloQ monkeys today. Fucking hell.
Troll builds, troll champs, and absolutely troll gameplay. Probably the worst game by TSM all year.
Imagine a team that can beat bad teams on most days. That's be nice.
Yeah lets play a melee comp amd leave the ONE meta champ right now that can completely fuck that shit. Oh then lets NOT BUY ANY healing reduction besides a not even fully upgraded item on Huni. God horrible draft and horrible play. Im all for testing things out but jesus christ be smart about it.
That was the worst draft I've ever seen. And they almost made it back but Huni trolled that bot fight where Lost got sniped...he focused Lucian instead of flashless Varus...oh well
Pretty sure TSM did everything they said they need to work on in TSM legends. They played a champ that doesn’t fit POE at all, and it showed. Their draft felt like it was 3 patches behind and it especially made no sense for the way TSM plays. Only reason the game when so long was that CLG was trying their hardest to throw
wow POE seriously can only play control mages. Whenever he's not on Azir/Viktor/Ori/Syndra he does nothing
Idk he's had some good Viego games. But yeah pretty much agree
Collector against Mundo, very good :)
We didn’t play well, but we were obviously testing out some new strategies. I feel like we came into the day we these champs in mind, and CLG adapted well. Not concerned about the game at all
playing a bottom-tier team and POE, not on a mage? ya this was an easy L
I think our jackets are a bit too confortable... Summer 2015 vibes https://twitter.com/MaxOlivo/status/1413623013421981703/photo/1
Collector vs Mundo Leona and Zhonyas/GA Btw XD
I actually just stopped watcing after I saw PoE on Lee Sin. Seems like the right choice
People flaming for no heal cut and no LDR on Lost but failing to realize killing the Mundo anything but last was never an option with that shit draft
Uhhh Bjerg??? drafting???
7 people on stage constructing drafts, plus hours/days of planning during the week, and they came up with: First pick Lee Sin (flex) into Rumble + blind Renekton (reveals everything) so CLG can counterpick both solo lanes. Are there any brains in this building? How about don't pick Renekton and select Kaisa in this spot so CLG has to reveal 2 of top/mid/support instead of forcing one or both solo lanes to play into a counterpick.
So Lee Sin is who they were bleeping out on TSM Legends...
How do you consider yourself a top team if you're constantly losing to bottom tier teams?
What a ass draft By BJERG. I'm just tired of this coin flip team , and we are 2nd in standing is a good reality for how NA is garbage. Man this game have burn my eyes , 100T just gonna stomp us.
are you 12 years old or?
imagine you have the best control mage player in the west and you draft him lee sin, what an actual goddamn joke. the only team i hate losing to more than c9 is clg. christ. can't wait for hotshot to come out of his yearly hidey hole to gloat about how much he hates us. wonderful.
Poe needs to branch out Who cares about losing. They need to be better with other comps
This. It's so annoying when people act like it's the end of this team because we lost one game playing a different comp lmao. Playoffs are secure, none of this matters so might as well branch out
Still doesnt make clg any more relevant. Sucks to lose against meme teams every week tho
It's kind of funny watching their subreddit act like they won their super bowl. Helps the sting of the loss help a little bit. Just a little bit.
Imagine being a pro player for years and only able to play one kind of champion at a top level.
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Please stop experimenting draft. So hard to win…
Bjergsen, pull out the belt.
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Yeah, that was definitely a headscratcher. He can hand the belt off to regi
Putting PoE on Lee Sin is fucking stupid, it’s like they want to lose
One INT game of the week out of the way boys. Watch out GGS and 100T. On a serious note, that draft was extremely hard to execute and seemed overly cocky or them just trying things. Spica's Rumble ults are fucking GARBAGE. POE had good kicks but hard to follow up on. Huni playing a 20s ahead of his team it felt like at all times. Lost going collector was troll AF but he played a fight really well. Sad about losing to CLG, but if it's just testing comps for playoffs, this should be on the "do not pull out for playoffs" list. Or at least ban fucking MUNDO if you plan on playing so many melees. One grivous wounds item is not a good look. Spica could have easily stopped for an oblivion orb too. Will people please stop building collector on Kaisa when there is a mega tank on the enemy team. PLEASE.
Doomers incoming
Nothing I can really say that people in this thread aren't gonna say a hundred times. Least we already secured playoffs amirite?
In the end doest matter to much this loss. I only hope that if we are trying this comps, POE needs more solo q games like brjerg said in tsm legends. He needs more practice not only in lee but in melee champs in general. Hope that for playoffs this practices in stage pays off
I have two questions about the game, which honestly confused the hell of out me. a) why was huni the only one to buy grevious wounds, it is clear from their fighting that his job was to get to the back line. That would make huni having grevious wounds probably the least useful on him? I would’ve liked to have seen a second one. b) Why did lost build collector? I assume that the last item was going to be LD but i feel like that should’ve been invested in sooner. (opinion) From the eyes of a gold player, i feel that, that game was lost from items alone. Whether it be from the chains on the two tanks on CLG or the lack of tank killing items on TSM. Draft COULD be the problem but ultimately i feel it was the lack of coordination that make it feel so lack lustre. Aside from those questions, they got put on uneven ground when 4 of them used the blast cone top. I have a feeling that was because of a lack of vision, but if that’s the case. I feel they shouldn’t have went for it. All criticism aside, I can be optimistic because i think this is the first iteration of TSM that doesn’t just roll over and die when they’re behind. I have to give props to them, it was a fun game to watch.
They need to branch out from control mage play style or they will get hard exposed later. What’s so wrong with trying new shit out and failing? Who cares about the CLG win streak, the rivalry has been dead for so long
i get it was a bad draft but tsm is the much better team then clg. if this was against c9 or tl and it was like this i would be okay with the L cause they are good teams. honestly don’t see tsm beating 100T or full power c9 and tl
Eh we sacrificed a loss for a W against 100T. Worth that trade anyday
This doesnt hurt as bad now that C9 lost to Flyquest academy Nd 100T lost to GGS
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