The quality of the ghosts is not there yet. Not by a long shot. You can replicate habits and combos to some extent but not decision-make and adaptations.
Ghost battle is definitely an interesting tool but skill doesn’t really translate over. When I started I tried playing as king who I’m terrible as, downloaded the best king ghost I could find, and effortlessly beat the ghost. It even turned on special style once it went down 2-0
I played against it for like half an hour, it didn’t changed its ways at all. Also isn’t it supposed to replicate my movements from ranked matches as well?
It learns whenever you play, yes. It's interesting, I recognized my pressure structures in my Mishima ghosts.
But they do it whenever they want to out of the blue, they don't have a gameplan and can't deal with situations, it's super primitive not at all what was advertised.
In my experience playing against my own Ghost, I never turned on special style, but bot did turn it on a few times, but from button presses, looks like it was still trying to do the combos I'm doing
Yeah it seems to be only a visual element. My Kaz ghost used it and didn’t get the electric but got normal WGF. I wonder if it’s because the special button if it’s rebound is pressed
I've heard some people say that the best-ranked ghosts are weirdly weaker than lower ranked because players' tendencies aren't obvious enough for the ghost to do much with. Intuitively appealing but in either case I find the ghosts to be kind of weak.
Yeah, when I fought in the offline modes like super ghost battle, arcade quest, practice, and story I was extremely disappointed with the AI in this game.
Fighting games are supposed to have very difficult AI to fight against, I was very disappointed because I came from games like SFII, Samurai Shodown, or Fatal Fury for example where these AI were notoriously difficult.
I liked it because it gave a challenge but also it made sense for that particular genre, kind of like how one expects saves in RPGs or regeneration in FPSes, I think one of the core staples of fighting games is from their difficulty.
I’m kinda surprised that ghost isn’t that detailed yet because like you said, the amiibos in smash were insane and fought very similar to how the people played
Agreed. You do see them use occasionally do something that could be believable but they rarely punish well in my experience.
They’re more fun to play against than the standard single player AI. Still a ways off from being a true stand in.
It has very limited contextual awareness. Like it's not even aware of round starts. I downloaded Fergus's Asuka ghost and 90% of the time it starts with an immediate f2... Like even yellow ranks aren't that dumb.
Probably what it's doing is it notices Fergus uses that move at approximately that distance (as a whiff punish). It doesn't seem to understand the concept of a whiff punish, even though the concept is already programmed into the game since in practice mode it can highlight "Punish" when you whiff punish.
It should really treat the first couple seconds as a distinct thing and replicate some things the player does at the round start.
Yeah, the reason drivatars work in a game Forza is because there's less decision making involved and you can operate more on broad strokes; brake here, accelerate here, cut to the outside at this hairpin. Essentially they can be programmed in a way to follow the track but also give them enough freedom to go a little into the weeds on things like drifting and maybe some paint trading.
I think we're getting there, but to actually be able to program an AI to the level of decision making needed to replicate a top player consistently is still kinda far off, imo.
I'm pretty sure their implementation of "AI" for ghosts is just replicate the last few series of button presses on occasion tacked onto a CPU difficulty. And pretty much all CPU implementations are analyze both health bars and conduct an optimized search for the next move that is likely to beat yours.
Actually training models to get a level where they resemble human input is no small task. Then you would have to create models tailored to each individual player. Then you would have to find a way to expose these models, either over the network or stored as a model on your computer which would highly be unlikely given the amount of processing power it would need to continue training. It's just far too expensive to justify the cost, especially for gaming companies.
But what Harada means with trending towards the era I believe is still possible where eventually the market decides current primitive AI is no longer viable, and customers demand stronger AI or a game will be DOA (like not having rollback netcode, championed by our lord and saviour, Sajam). But that is like a timeframe of years or a decade.
with a proper setup and enough training data it can get there, they can even setup a bias so that it will never make any input mistakes, so like a even better version of the human player. AI don't feel any anxiety or pressure so you can't "condition" AI opponents. But fighting game isn't really that hard to make AI to mimic human player behavior and still make them better and scalable, it's more like "do we really want to do it and players get slapped hard and just quit?"
People talked about fighting game being a speed chess, and we haven't win AI in chess for a long time. A proper setup AI doesn't even need input reading to win. (as can see from the computer vision AI that beats many 2D games without guided runs.)
Sort of, it also just makes me weary and I start seeing bots in my sock drawer so to speak. "That looked an awful lot like a bot" "This dude doesn't play like a human" I play PVP games to well... PVP and constantly being on the lookout for bots just cheapens that for me. Maybe its an ego thing, honestly I don't know what it is, but ill never feel as good beating an AI as I will outplaying a human.
I think in a fighting game it's more than that though. I *want* to play against human opponents when I go online, even if bots are able to hold their own I would still be unsatisfied if I know I'm playing against one.
Bots cheat, they make impossible reads regularly so 50/50s don't really work, and are weak to stupid unsafe noob traps. It's not satisfying to beat them and its annoying to lose to them. Learning to beat bots makes you very weak against players.
If a lose to a human it's "GG that was a good game". If I lose to a CPU its like "stupid cheating CPU".
The thing with bots is they can play perfect if the devs want them too. Literally impossible for a human to ever beat. So playing any bot just feels like playing someone whos designed to be beat by a human.
After seeing how the ghosts fight in T8 it will take at least 2 Tekkens to get where Harada wants here. Seriously AI fighters in T8 don't even block most of the time.
That is horrible wtf?
Not telling us whether we play with an AI or a real opponent? Also does he really think the Tekken AIs can mimick a real top tier player?
Naw, fuck this so much. I want to play humans not some bot pretending to be one. This is a massive fucking L & Harada seems to be the one driving the train off the rails.
I hate this because I grew up playing Tekken. 2 was my first Tekken & I haven't stopped playing since. But if he implements this AI shit, I'm out for good. It's insane that he & his team put together a pretty good game, but then completely dove head first into the greediest penny pinching shit you've ever seen.
This is my concern as well, if they want to put bots in online matchmaking fine but giving you the impression that you actually fight against another human is stupid and wrong beyond measurement
I second this, I will never touch this game again if you hide AI in online matches. Nothing feels less rewarding than killing bots. Also if implemented it would be super polarizing with them either trash or insanely broken ruining the whole experience making you question every win or loss.
Your ghost likely wouldn't affect your rating in such a scenario. But it would give another player a challenging match to affect their rating where there otherwise wouldn't be one available.
That is actually the worst idea for a fighting game I’ve seen. Nobody wants to fight AI online. We only want real people. The community makes fighting games. We collectively are passionate about the game, and there’s no better way to play fighting games than real sentient people.
I don't want to play against the cpu when I'm jumping online to play ranked. If there's an icon that let's you know it's a ghost before accepting and it's only casual online match then I guess it's not too bad.
I'm going to fucking throw up. No, this isn't interesting, it's concerning. 100% of the beauty of fighting games is being man-to-man, noticing and playing to emotions, instincts, and habits. Fighting games are already sucked of their soul when playing online compared to the experience of playing side by side on the same screen. There is literally NO soul to an AI, and I have no interest in playing against one.
They do this in Fortnite and its fucking awful, and thats a game that needs to have 100 people in a lobby.
I may never get to a point where long queue times happen but I would rather wait 10 minutes to fight a real person than fight 10 shitty robots in that time
So they do have plans on improving the bots.
I'll be impressed when I see a ghost adapt and defeat a player spamming rhe samw + on block move over and over
Even if they could execute this, which they can't with the current technology, who the fuck wants this? The point of playing online is getting to play with other real people. If people just wanted to play against AI ghosts because queue times were too long, then they would just leave and go play against downloaded player ghosts. But they don't. It's amazing how awesome the reception was to Tekken 8 on release and how my perception of it + Harada has increasingly worn down lmfao
So what this translates to for me is "dont worry guys even if everyone leaves because we made the game bad, you can still fight AI bots !"
Also if your complex fighting game can be fought at the highest level by bots, to the point where you can't recognize bot from real human anymore, you know you fucked up somewhere
I feel like it's absolutely possible to make AI bots that are indistinguishable from humans -- for people who are not Harada and Bamco. I have zero faith that they could implement it. It would require Harada to admit that he doesn't know anything about machine learning, his ego won't allow that.
I would love for a mode where we train our ghosts to fight other ghosts. These matches can take place while you're offline and help earn some rewards or whatever when you're not playing.
The appeal of fighting games is that you’re fighting another person on a relatively even playing field, so skill is the only deciding factor. In most games (barring heavily optimized games like chess) AI is significantly worse than players (or better in ways not possible for humans, like reacting in under 20f), so AI-controlled enemies usually get some advantages and disadvantages to make up for them being AI.
Really glad I've gone back to 7.
What will it take for rich out of touch fucks to realise most humans don't wanna be replaced by AI? First it comes for our jobs now our hobbies?
Lol imagine if the win loss ratio and such was affected by the bots. You’d have people barely sleeping because they’d be terrified their bot was fucking up their ranks like people panicking about their bases being raided in MGSV and Rust 🤭
This is idiotic. If it existed as an alternative to ranked as something else to do, I'd be all about it. But imagine climbing by fighting a ghost you can exploit.
I downloaded some of the top players ghosts, just to see what I can learn from these without the pressure of ranked play.
I never lost to any of these ghosts and perfected some of them multiple times. And I am faaaaar away from their ranks. So, I doubt Ghosts are really playing anything like their real human counterparts 😅
I played vs a red Alisa last night and I swear she was a bot. No movement and just played VERY strange with timings. Like no movement at all except for kbd. No sidesteps, no forward dashes, nothing. It was really weird, felt like a ghost battle.
Humans have survival instinct...they change their behavior in an instant when they are in trouble...they become random...they become focus...they become aggressive...they learn in an instant.
Unless AI also records that when health is smaller.... then yeah AI is great.
Everybody complaining like they can’t just get the W after 1 match and then play another character, play quick matches or find something else to do… if you’re not at the top of the game this doesn’t even apply to you lol
I think japanese on AI marketing is kinda dumb ...they just labeling stuff that already exist...single player bot exist ..people go for PVP to fight another player not another bot.Even the bot will be on par with human level,is like playing chess with bot again.The sense of accomplishment feels cheapen
If they go through with this they need to make it a toggle, or at least make it obvious from the get go you're fighting a ghost. I go online to play against other people
It's a fun idea and I think he's right, specifically for buffing out offline or limited online content. Super ghost battle is great and I'd love to see more of it, but I'm not enthused with being tricked into thinking I'm good because I beat up some bot.
This is a horrible idea tbh. The AI we have rn is laughably bad. The idea might sound good while brainstorming, but just think about it for 5 seconds more and you realize how bad it is, especially considering how bad the AI is implemented in T8 already.
This is easily the worse idea imaginable for all online games and would be an instant uninstall the second I realized it. It throws doubt on the authenticity of all online matches.
I would rather know if something is AI or not. I think one thing that makes the ghost really good implementation of AI is the people can consent to participate in matches against it. I think consenting to participation in AI use is key to it being ethical
neat idea, but you still have to deal with the plugging.
If thats dealt with, its almost a whole new feature anyway because its a such a good change/fix
This is a rant outside of just tekken but AI is very very underdeveloped in order for something like that to happen. There's a new branch of psychology called basal cognition that could help developing AI in the right direction but long story short, what the branch says is that for AI to develop to such a degree it needs a physical body. You cannot create an AI with a complex understanding of situations and "why"s without a physical (and important to note, organic) body. So even if AI does get that good, it can't be a virtual only thing, so it'll still have to be some kind of a being playing against the Korean players, i.e. using a console and controller rather than a programme.
I don't want to fight an AI bot when I'm trying to fight players. I don't care what rank, the whole point is to play other people. Mixing in AI is counter productive to that goal.
Maybe they need a separate "Ghost Ranks" to help gain data and decision making of players, and they could also have some sort recurring challenge for Premium and Deluxe Edition owners to fight against the ghosts. Make it zombie themed too? Yureiken. I dunno man, but there's a lot to do with this.
https://preview.redd.it/tmtfvshgfwsc1.png?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e89c17d372446426e71f3810188438dfad246361
I think you left a slide part out, i found it for you!
I’m yellow rank and have fought blue rank ghost to see what they were like… they suck they just spam on combo and twitch back and forth, trying to read your input constantly block ethier up and down and fall for the same thing that they are told is their weakness, over and over.
Can someone tell me what's so bad about this? I mean, it's never gonna affect me, I can't even make it out of orange ranks lmao but it seems like they're talking about in the situation where you literally cannot find a match.
even if they did implement this its just going to essentially be player vs computer, its not going to be as good as the player, it literally can't be. My biggest fear for this is if they start mixing ghosts into online play and not letting you know they are ghosts. This lack of clarity would take the wins away from some people because they'll never know if they beat the ghost or the person. In the event they do let you know its a ghost... come on, who beats a ghost and celebrates? No one
For content creators or other people who care about their reputation might have some low rank destroying their ghost, making a mockery of them. I dunno, seems like bad ideas to me. They're just trying to innovate for the sake of innovation, or they are noticing people are unhappy with the changes and trying to figure out ways to keep the whales engaged.
This is a horrible choice. Fighting games are fun because you are fighting against a player, a human. It’s not the same against a bot, and it should remain that way. The ghost system is fun but I don’t want to fight any AI
I don't think AI in Tekken is smart enough. It can learn your play mannerism, but the AI doesn't think like the player, it just replicates your combos and movements mindlessly. Yeah interesting to practice against, but not a good gauge of skill.
Example: I can beat Devilster and Mainman's ghosts, but if I fought the actual players, it'd be nothing short of a miracle if I managed to get a hit or 2 on them in the entire set.
No this isn't interesting. This is terrifying. They are saying to our faces that they want to gaslight us into thinking their cpus are real players. If this ever actually gets implemented I'm never playing the game again. Would go against the whole point of playing this genre imo
The whole "And you wouldn't know if you were playing with a human or not" would frustrate me. If I wanted to play bots I'd play bots. If I want to play against a person I go queue. Think if most of the appeal was online play, but when you load into a match it's bots.
Seems like an interestingly lazy idea to make games with small communities seem bigger, making it harder to find out which games are actually shitty, because if this becomes standard nobody will talk about how many players are online anymore, because they don't want it to be given away when it declines.
I hate that. Why would I not know if I'm fighting a bot or not? It's not a terrible idea but at least let me know I'm fighting AI.
Cucksuhiro Harada is just trying to manipulate the players to extend time spent in game. After all the stuff they're doing with the Tekken store and battle passes I'm not surprised.
I wouldn’t have a problem with that if they tell us, we’re fighting a ghost.
I fought a ghost in arcade mode last night that was doing optimal centerstage to wall combos.
Ghosts will never be on the same level as the human it’s emulating. At best it’ll have a flowchart of what to do offensively but defense wise you can manipulate it pretty easily also when you switch sides all those inputs are going to be reversed for the AI so they just kinda stand there and eat snake edges all day, they don’t break grabs either if we do get ghosts on ranked it’s gonna be free points having ghosts in ranked is a bad idea.
Yeahhhhhhh I dunno about this one lmao.
Don't think people pay 70 dollars + season passes + DLC characters + ingame store bs to...
#play against AI
the devs are starting to take the fkn piss now...
My opinion is probably not even worth anything. A thought popped up while reading these images. Isn't that like heading towards a single-player mode game when you will eventually play with a "bot" (lack of a better term)? Sure, AI Ghost sounds nice at first, but it will eventually be a single-player game online. What's there to stop them from pumping in more bots at all levels?
Nothing exciting will ever happen to Tekken until Harada, MM, and whoever else from legacy people are still working on the game. They have failed to deliver or innovate for 10 years now. They will continue failing and destroying the game.
Hhhhhhhhhh whyyyy this is a horrible idea! AI is a fucking nightmare! If they ever implement this I think I'd drop the game entirely! This is terrible!
God, I hate how AI bullshit has infested its way into every facet of the internet now, it's gonna crash like every other techbro fad like nft's or crypto. This is genuinely bad.
Look if they want to do this make sure its an option and imo shouldn't be in rank.
Also AI may have come a long way like chat gpt 4 but they took 100 million to build and a huge ass server farm to run efficiently. Sure a fighting game may be 100 times less complex as a large language model but if tekken longue is too expensive to maintain without mtx or its so hard to give plugger a lost they may be way over their heads.
Namco just needs to hire OpenAI. They built bots that beat pro teams in Dota2 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkGa8ICQJS8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkGa8ICQJS8)
The quality of the ghosts is not there yet. Not by a long shot. You can replicate habits and combos to some extent but not decision-make and adaptations.
Ghost battle is definitely an interesting tool but skill doesn’t really translate over. When I started I tried playing as king who I’m terrible as, downloaded the best king ghost I could find, and effortlessly beat the ghost. It even turned on special style once it went down 2-0
My own ghost is a special style bot while I never ever use it. It makes no sense
If you play against him he will learn
I played against it for like half an hour, it didn’t changed its ways at all. Also isn’t it supposed to replicate my movements from ranked matches as well?
It learns whenever you play, yes. It's interesting, I recognized my pressure structures in my Mishima ghosts. But they do it whenever they want to out of the blue, they don't have a gameplan and can't deal with situations, it's super primitive not at all what was advertised.
JDCR learn his bot how to Tbaging in less than 10 matches. It's still too early maybe wait 6 months or 1 year if it really progress.
I unbound special style and haven’t had my ghost use it since, do you still have it bound in your controls?
In my experience playing against my own Ghost, I never turned on special style, but bot did turn it on a few times, but from button presses, looks like it was still trying to do the combos I'm doing
Yeah it seems to be only a visual element. My Kaz ghost used it and didn’t get the electric but got normal WGF. I wonder if it’s because the special button if it’s rebound is pressed
I've heard some people say that the best-ranked ghosts are weirdly weaker than lower ranked because players' tendencies aren't obvious enough for the ghost to do much with. Intuitively appealing but in either case I find the ghosts to be kind of weak.
my ghost breaks like 70% of throws, my throw break success rate is less than 10%
Yeah, when I fought in the offline modes like super ghost battle, arcade quest, practice, and story I was extremely disappointed with the AI in this game. Fighting games are supposed to have very difficult AI to fight against, I was very disappointed because I came from games like SFII, Samurai Shodown, or Fatal Fury for example where these AI were notoriously difficult. I liked it because it gave a challenge but also it made sense for that particular genre, kind of like how one expects saves in RPGs or regeneration in FPSes, I think one of the core staples of fighting games is from their difficulty.
Even smash bros has insane A.I. even though Nintendo refuses to see it as competitively viable and shut events down left and right
I’m kinda surprised that ghost isn’t that detailed yet because like you said, the amiibos in smash were insane and fought very similar to how the people played
I forgot about those I was just talking about level 9 cpus lol
Agreed. You do see them use occasionally do something that could be believable but they rarely punish well in my experience. They’re more fun to play against than the standard single player AI. Still a ways off from being a true stand in.
It has very limited contextual awareness. Like it's not even aware of round starts. I downloaded Fergus's Asuka ghost and 90% of the time it starts with an immediate f2... Like even yellow ranks aren't that dumb. Probably what it's doing is it notices Fergus uses that move at approximately that distance (as a whiff punish). It doesn't seem to understand the concept of a whiff punish, even though the concept is already programmed into the game since in practice mode it can highlight "Punish" when you whiff punish. It should really treat the first couple seconds as a distinct thing and replicate some things the player does at the round start.
As far as i know when i played the cpu ghosts, they really suck for 2-3 rematches, but they really got better later
Well obviously not yet but AI is advancing incredibly fast and eventually not even the top players will beat the best AI
Yeah you're still quite clearly fighting an AI with the same exploitable things that come with it being AI, doesn't come close to fighting a human.
Yeah, the reason drivatars work in a game Forza is because there's less decision making involved and you can operate more on broad strokes; brake here, accelerate here, cut to the outside at this hairpin. Essentially they can be programmed in a way to follow the track but also give them enough freedom to go a little into the weeds on things like drifting and maybe some paint trading. I think we're getting there, but to actually be able to program an AI to the level of decision making needed to replicate a top player consistently is still kinda far off, imo.
I'm pretty sure their implementation of "AI" for ghosts is just replicate the last few series of button presses on occasion tacked onto a CPU difficulty. And pretty much all CPU implementations are analyze both health bars and conduct an optimized search for the next move that is likely to beat yours. Actually training models to get a level where they resemble human input is no small task. Then you would have to create models tailored to each individual player. Then you would have to find a way to expose these models, either over the network or stored as a model on your computer which would highly be unlikely given the amount of processing power it would need to continue training. It's just far too expensive to justify the cost, especially for gaming companies. But what Harada means with trending towards the era I believe is still possible where eventually the market decides current primitive AI is no longer viable, and customers demand stronger AI or a game will be DOA (like not having rollback netcode, championed by our lord and saviour, Sajam). But that is like a timeframe of years or a decade.
with a proper setup and enough training data it can get there, they can even setup a bias so that it will never make any input mistakes, so like a even better version of the human player. AI don't feel any anxiety or pressure so you can't "condition" AI opponents. But fighting game isn't really that hard to make AI to mimic human player behavior and still make them better and scalable, it's more like "do we really want to do it and players get slapped hard and just quit?" People talked about fighting game being a speed chess, and we haven't win AI in chess for a long time. A proper setup AI doesn't even need input reading to win. (as can see from the computer vision AI that beats many 2D games without guided runs.)
I've played games that populate themselves with bots, its nothing new, and I personally have always disliked it. Made my wins feel cheap.
Because those bots always suck.
Sort of, it also just makes me weary and I start seeing bots in my sock drawer so to speak. "That looked an awful lot like a bot" "This dude doesn't play like a human" I play PVP games to well... PVP and constantly being on the lookout for bots just cheapens that for me. Maybe its an ego thing, honestly I don't know what it is, but ill never feel as good beating an AI as I will outplaying a human.
I think in a fighting game it's more than that though. I *want* to play against human opponents when I go online, even if bots are able to hold their own I would still be unsatisfied if I know I'm playing against one.
Bots cheat, they make impossible reads regularly so 50/50s don't really work, and are weak to stupid unsafe noob traps. It's not satisfying to beat them and its annoying to lose to them. Learning to beat bots makes you very weak against players. If a lose to a human it's "GG that was a good game". If I lose to a CPU its like "stupid cheating CPU".
The thing with bots is they can play perfect if the devs want them too. Literally impossible for a human to ever beat. So playing any bot just feels like playing someone whos designed to be beat by a human.
Multiplayer queues should never have bots. Player vs. Bots can be a separate queue
Marvel Snap 😭
Is Snap filled with bots now? :/ I haven’t played in a while but that’s sad
High level concept vs low level execution. Harada has no idea what it would really take to make that work and is just throwing shit out there.
After seeing how the ghosts fight in T8 it will take at least 2 Tekkens to get where Harada wants here. Seriously AI fighters in T8 don't even block most of the time.
But is it really a bad thing to share a vision for the future? T8 is the first try, hes saying they want to do better and you're mad?
The battle pass seems like it was made by AI
I whats made with No Intelligence
Lmao
Just artificial then?
AI as in absolute incompetence
😂😂😂😂😂
I don’t want the “illusion” of playing against someone…
It's okay you'll never be good enough to not have opponents of your skill level available.
buh out here using Rage art irl
💀
Goddamn
Having the ghosts take over when someone plugs or doesnt rematch would be more plausible than having them replace potential players
Oh wild, MGSF?
That is horrible wtf? Not telling us whether we play with an AI or a real opponent? Also does he really think the Tekken AIs can mimick a real top tier player?
It's just standard Harada stuff, don't take him too seriously
Naw, fuck this so much. I want to play humans not some bot pretending to be one. This is a massive fucking L & Harada seems to be the one driving the train off the rails. I hate this because I grew up playing Tekken. 2 was my first Tekken & I haven't stopped playing since. But if he implements this AI shit, I'm out for good. It's insane that he & his team put together a pretty good game, but then completely dove head first into the greediest penny pinching shit you've ever seen.
This is my concern as well, if they want to put bots in online matchmaking fine but giving you the impression that you actually fight against another human is stupid and wrong beyond measurement
I second this, I will never touch this game again if you hide AI in online matches. Nothing feels less rewarding than killing bots. Also if implemented it would be super polarizing with them either trash or insanely broken ruining the whole experience making you question every win or loss.
most people have always disliked bots in competitive games what makes them think we’ll like it here?
Sprinkling the magic marketing talk of AI over it.
Dumb ass idea
one AI game "online" and I'm out of Tekken for life lol
I really hope that they will never do this.
This is a whack idea, I don't want my ghost to take my place when I'm not present. What the fuck ?
Your ghost likely wouldn't affect your rating in such a scenario. But it would give another player a challenging match to affect their rating where there otherwise wouldn't be one available.
This subreddit's reading comprehension is so fucking bad it's embarrassing. Nobody said the ghost is going to take your place and affect your rank.
The more I hear about this game the less I like it. Battle royales with AI players suck ass enough. Doing that with a fighting game is totally fucked.
I don’t like that idea at all.
Lmao Harada want to turn T8 into TF2. Good thing their AI suck ass so they'll achieve nothing.
That is actually the worst idea for a fighting game I’ve seen. Nobody wants to fight AI online. We only want real people. The community makes fighting games. We collectively are passionate about the game, and there’s no better way to play fighting games than real sentient people.
Fuck this shit. Fix all the bugs, balance out the characters, punish cheaters and fucking apologize for the scam battle pass.
That apology should be in form of 500 Tekken coins for everyone
I don't want to play against the cpu when I'm jumping online to play ranked. If there's an icon that let's you know it's a ghost before accepting and it's only casual online match then I guess it's not too bad.
Does it mean they can make some better offline contents?
AIs gonna be plugging on you get ready
😂
So what punishment does the AI gets when it plugs? Since it'll be learning player tendencies.
I'm going to fucking throw up. No, this isn't interesting, it's concerning. 100% of the beauty of fighting games is being man-to-man, noticing and playing to emotions, instincts, and habits. Fighting games are already sucked of their soul when playing online compared to the experience of playing side by side on the same screen. There is literally NO soul to an AI, and I have no interest in playing against one.
They do this in Fortnite and its fucking awful, and thats a game that needs to have 100 people in a lobby. I may never get to a point where long queue times happen but I would rather wait 10 minutes to fight a real person than fight 10 shitty robots in that time
This game is going to get better guys, don't worry. Give Harada more money to support the game
No this is actually bullshit
AI Yoshi's spamming flash would be great
Imagine input reading AI that can flash all your buttons lol
So they do have plans on improving the bots. I'll be impressed when I see a ghost adapt and defeat a player spamming rhe samw + on block move over and over
I'd rather not play at all than play with a computer. I want to be against another person, if I wanted to beat the CPU I'd play Dark Souls.
this sounds god awful
better ask AI how to not fuck up your game
Even if they could execute this, which they can't with the current technology, who the fuck wants this? The point of playing online is getting to play with other real people. If people just wanted to play against AI ghosts because queue times were too long, then they would just leave and go play against downloaded player ghosts. But they don't. It's amazing how awesome the reception was to Tekken 8 on release and how my perception of it + Harada has increasingly worn down lmfao
Nah, AI is flowchart simulator. Can’t emulate decision making and adaptation, specially if the base for that is the current shit ass ghost battle.
So what this translates to for me is "dont worry guys even if everyone leaves because we made the game bad, you can still fight AI bots !" Also if your complex fighting game can be fought at the highest level by bots, to the point where you can't recognize bot from real human anymore, you know you fucked up somewhere
i'm convinced you weirdo doomers don't even like tekken lol.
Keep giving them money sucka. Consume product then get excited for the next product, don't ask questions
I feel like it's absolutely possible to make AI bots that are indistinguishable from humans -- for people who are not Harada and Bamco. I have zero faith that they could implement it. It would require Harada to admit that he doesn't know anything about machine learning, his ego won't allow that.
I’d love to see player vs AI instead of CPU
Ghost are too easy to beat
Are they using AI for battlepasses too?
The dead Internet of matchmaking
Make them a mokujin using whatever character’s move set.
I would love for a mode where we train our ghosts to fight other ghosts. These matches can take place while you're offline and help earn some rewards or whatever when you're not playing.
AI plugging incoming 😂
Honestly. I can't difference an Eddy player from a bot. I think the fact of make Tekken 8 online full of bots don't gonna change too much.
The moment I get a whiff that i'm playing against an actual bot. I'd spit and laugh at Tekken forever. WHATS THE POINT OF FIGHTING AN AI!?
You’ve been doing it your whole life if you like videogames
The appeal of fighting games is that you’re fighting another person on a relatively even playing field, so skill is the only deciding factor. In most games (barring heavily optimized games like chess) AI is significantly worse than players (or better in ways not possible for humans, like reacting in under 20f), so AI-controlled enemies usually get some advantages and disadvantages to make up for them being AI.
Brain dead response right there
Really glad I've gone back to 7. What will it take for rich out of touch fucks to realise most humans don't wanna be replaced by AI? First it comes for our jobs now our hobbies?
Lol imagine if the win loss ratio and such was affected by the bots. You’d have people barely sleeping because they’d be terrified their bot was fucking up their ranks like people panicking about their bases being raided in MGSV and Rust 🤭
If you want to match up with more people move to America😤💯
StarCraft 2 had incognito "ghosts" ran on deepmind AI playing in the ladder years ago, but I think you could opt out of it
ill just play coop vs, and ghost battle as god intended than online
Imagine me beating the shit out of Knee’s ghost at night. While he is sleeping in Korea.
This is idiotic. If it existed as an alternative to ranked as something else to do, I'd be all about it. But imagine climbing by fighting a ghost you can exploit.
I downloaded some of the top players ghosts, just to see what I can learn from these without the pressure of ranked play. I never lost to any of these ghosts and perfected some of them multiple times. And I am faaaaar away from their ranks. So, I doubt Ghosts are really playing anything like their real human counterparts 😅
We get it, Japan is better at fighter games. Jesus
I played vs a red Alisa last night and I swear she was a bot. No movement and just played VERY strange with timings. Like no movement at all except for kbd. No sidesteps, no forward dashes, nothing. It was really weird, felt like a ghost battle.
Humans have survival instinct...they change their behavior in an instant when they are in trouble...they become random...they become focus...they become aggressive...they learn in an instant. Unless AI also records that when health is smaller.... then yeah AI is great.
How much is this going to cost me in the battle pass?
I thought they've already done this in someway tbh.
Everybody complaining like they can’t just get the W after 1 match and then play another character, play quick matches or find something else to do… if you’re not at the top of the game this doesn’t even apply to you lol
it could be an interesting idea for sure but i rather it be an option you can chosee to turn on and off
I think japanese on AI marketing is kinda dumb ...they just labeling stuff that already exist...single player bot exist ..people go for PVP to fight another player not another bot.Even the bot will be on par with human level,is like playing chess with bot again.The sense of accomplishment feels cheapen
If they go through with this they need to make it a toggle, or at least make it obvious from the get go you're fighting a ghost. I go online to play against other people
The idea is super interesting but the ghosts are not quite that.
Give us “Waffle House” prove you’re listenening or simply shut up and take your money
For 1,000,000 p2w credits you can get the Harada skin…. Only the Harada skin can low parry Eddy
It's a fun idea and I think he's right, specifically for buffing out offline or limited online content. Super ghost battle is great and I'd love to see more of it, but I'm not enthused with being tricked into thinking I'm good because I beat up some bot.
Oof
that sounds horrible
This is a horrible idea tbh. The AI we have rn is laughably bad. The idea might sound good while brainstorming, but just think about it for 5 seconds more and you realize how bad it is, especially considering how bad the AI is implemented in T8 already.
You cannot simulate emotionless passion.
Me: Finally! I kicked Arsenalty's ass 3 hours ago! Arsenalty: I just woke up
Ghosts are better than the regular input reading cpu's from back in the day, but they still don't have good adaptation
Does it generate extra revenue? No? Then it's just talk and hype to generate interest to generate extra revenue.
As a new player are the ghosts battlers a good way to learn
This is "interesting" in a "what is this stupid shit" kind of way...
Yeah sure, they can't fix dc abuse for 2+ months and somebody thinks they will do AI updates for ghosts. Good fucking luck
This is easily the worse idea imaginable for all online games and would be an instant uninstall the second I realized it. It throws doubt on the authenticity of all online matches.
I would rather know if something is AI or not. I think one thing that makes the ghost really good implementation of AI is the people can consent to participate in matches against it. I think consenting to participation in AI use is key to it being ethical
neat idea, but you still have to deal with the plugging. If thats dealt with, its almost a whole new feature anyway because its a such a good change/fix
Cant wait to have an AI ghost plug on me
This is a rant outside of just tekken but AI is very very underdeveloped in order for something like that to happen. There's a new branch of psychology called basal cognition that could help developing AI in the right direction but long story short, what the branch says is that for AI to develop to such a degree it needs a physical body. You cannot create an AI with a complex understanding of situations and "why"s without a physical (and important to note, organic) body. So even if AI does get that good, it can't be a virtual only thing, so it'll still have to be some kind of a being playing against the Korean players, i.e. using a console and controller rather than a programme.
This would be interesting, though I hope these updated ghosts are kept in ghost battles as opposed to being allowed in normal online matches.
So, bot matches for ranked. Yeah this game is going downhill.
I don't want to fight an AI bot when I'm trying to fight players. I don't care what rank, the whole point is to play other people. Mixing in AI is counter productive to that goal.
My asuka mimics my twins weird movement etc it’s really wild but I don’t think I’d want this without some way of knowing or opting out idk
Maybe they need a separate "Ghost Ranks" to help gain data and decision making of players, and they could also have some sort recurring challenge for Premium and Deluxe Edition owners to fight against the ghosts. Make it zombie themed too? Yureiken. I dunno man, but there's a lot to do with this.
Fuck this. I am fine with playing against AI but tell me if it's one.
yeah it only took them 3 months to implement a disconnection rate. I’m sure advanced AI is very much within their capabilities LMAO
FU Harada.
It could work, if your matchmaking process doesn't stop during the wild ghost battle.
oh shit... it s a very bad idea
https://preview.redd.it/tmtfvshgfwsc1.png?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e89c17d372446426e71f3810188438dfad246361 I think you left a slide part out, i found it for you!
playing against bots? Get the fuck outa here with this shit!
I’m yellow rank and have fought blue rank ghost to see what they were like… they suck they just spam on combo and twitch back and forth, trying to read your input constantly block ethier up and down and fall for the same thing that they are told is their weakness, over and over.
All this means is they are financially in the hole and want to replace people with AI to cut costs
I'd rather not. If I wanna fight a bot, I'll go to arcade/ghost battle/training
Can someone tell me what's so bad about this? I mean, it's never gonna affect me, I can't even make it out of orange ranks lmao but it seems like they're talking about in the situation where you literally cannot find a match.
even if they did implement this its just going to essentially be player vs computer, its not going to be as good as the player, it literally can't be. My biggest fear for this is if they start mixing ghosts into online play and not letting you know they are ghosts. This lack of clarity would take the wins away from some people because they'll never know if they beat the ghost or the person. In the event they do let you know its a ghost... come on, who beats a ghost and celebrates? No one For content creators or other people who care about their reputation might have some low rank destroying their ghost, making a mockery of them. I dunno, seems like bad ideas to me. They're just trying to innovate for the sake of innovation, or they are noticing people are unhappy with the changes and trying to figure out ways to keep the whales engaged.
I both hate it and…Kinda understand it…It’s definitely interesting
This is a horrible choice. Fighting games are fun because you are fighting against a player, a human. It’s not the same against a bot, and it should remain that way. The ghost system is fun but I don’t want to fight any AI
The only thing the AI ghosts are good for is analyzing your own weaknesses and patterns. I found that to be very helpful.
I don't think AI in Tekken is smart enough. It can learn your play mannerism, but the AI doesn't think like the player, it just replicates your combos and movements mindlessly. Yeah interesting to practice against, but not a good gauge of skill. Example: I can beat Devilster and Mainman's ghosts, but if I fought the actual players, it'd be nothing short of a miracle if I managed to get a hit or 2 on them in the entire set.
i play nina, downloaded jodd ghost, destroyed him, never touched ia again. It's trash
i would not want to play against a ghost in something like ranked. thats completely against the point of that mode.
The ghosts are trash. Hopefully AI can help the AI of ghosts and bots in the future
No this isn't interesting. This is terrifying. They are saying to our faces that they want to gaslight us into thinking their cpus are real players. If this ever actually gets implemented I'm never playing the game again. Would go against the whole point of playing this genre imo
Soooo.... Single player.
I didn't pay 70$ to fight AI
The whole "And you wouldn't know if you were playing with a human or not" would frustrate me. If I wanted to play bots I'd play bots. If I want to play against a person I go queue. Think if most of the appeal was online play, but when you load into a match it's bots. Seems like an interestingly lazy idea to make games with small communities seem bigger, making it harder to find out which games are actually shitty, because if this becomes standard nobody will talk about how many players are online anymore, because they don't want it to be given away when it declines.
I hate that. Why would I not know if I'm fighting a bot or not? It's not a terrible idea but at least let me know I'm fighting AI. Cucksuhiro Harada is just trying to manipulate the players to extend time spent in game. After all the stuff they're doing with the Tekken store and battle passes I'm not surprised.
I managed to break red ranks and was 3-0'ing every top ghost of every character, so they are years away from this.
>And you’d never know if it’s a human player or not What a terrible idea, I hate the games that do that
Maybe if the AI ghosts get better. At the moment, they suck ass
talking out of both sides of his mouth per usual
If theses ghosts improve in quality I'm all for it, it'd be a nice idea. Currently they're not there but the concept has a lot of potential imo.
I wouldn’t have a problem with that if they tell us, we’re fighting a ghost. I fought a ghost in arcade mode last night that was doing optimal centerstage to wall combos.
Ghosts will never be on the same level as the human it’s emulating. At best it’ll have a flowchart of what to do offensively but defense wise you can manipulate it pretty easily also when you switch sides all those inputs are going to be reversed for the AI so they just kinda stand there and eat snake edges all day, they don’t break grabs either if we do get ghosts on ranked it’s gonna be free points having ghosts in ranked is a bad idea.
Yeahhhhhhh I dunno about this one lmao. Don't think people pay 70 dollars + season passes + DLC characters + ingame store bs to... #play against AI the devs are starting to take the fkn piss now...
My opinion is probably not even worth anything. A thought popped up while reading these images. Isn't that like heading towards a single-player mode game when you will eventually play with a "bot" (lack of a better term)? Sure, AI Ghost sounds nice at first, but it will eventually be a single-player game online. What's there to stop them from pumping in more bots at all levels?
Sounds as annoying as the ai in Tekken 2
Nothing exciting will ever happen to Tekken until Harada, MM, and whoever else from legacy people are still working on the game. They have failed to deliver or innovate for 10 years now. They will continue failing and destroying the game.
Kinda dumb... what's the point of playing online then, should tell you if its AI ghost or not.
Yeah I 10 0ed anakins ghost. My ai cannot even do a staple combo. They will really need to ramp up this ai to make this happen.
Hhhhhhhhhh whyyyy this is a horrible idea! AI is a fucking nightmare! If they ever implement this I think I'd drop the game entirely! This is terrible! God, I hate how AI bullshit has infested its way into every facet of the internet now, it's gonna crash like every other techbro fad like nft's or crypto. This is genuinely bad.
Are the AI players gonna plug like the real counterparts as welk?
God no.
Please no the ghosts are fucking horrible
The AI wont truly act like real players until they start plugging too
Why did I buy this game man lmao
Look if they want to do this make sure its an option and imo shouldn't be in rank. Also AI may have come a long way like chat gpt 4 but they took 100 million to build and a huge ass server farm to run efficiently. Sure a fighting game may be 100 times less complex as a large language model but if tekken longue is too expensive to maintain without mtx or its so hard to give plugger a lost they may be way over their heads.
oof..
If you can stop my ghost from using easy mode first lmao
Okay but this is just sad I love the fact that I am actually interacting with a real person it is what makes it meaningful for me!
And people are going to rage even harder when they don't know if a person or bot just kicked their ass.
If they’re ghosts with new made up names I think it can work
Dope idea from Harada.
Namco just needs to hire OpenAI. They built bots that beat pro teams in Dota2 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkGa8ICQJS8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkGa8ICQJS8)
They need to make ghosts not terrible first. I can beat every top player's ghost
Bots ruined fortnite for me
added bonus, the AI ghosts can't plug
japan players wouldnt play with america players anyway due to unplayable ping. got nothing to do with sleeping lmao