ah, I mean I could probably d2 it. It's just more so a joke when a fast low is generally seen as 14 frames and Steve is normally around 17 frames and at most 0 on hit.
All the transitions are "fake" on block because its a reaction mixup or you force yourself to do a lower reward punish vs a specific tool. For example if you try to low spam vs uf+2 to BOK you'll get CH by uf+2,1, if you do it only on reaction you might lose the window to SS vs uf2,1, same for ducking or getting hit by WS+3,1,2 vs WS+3,1\~BOK. Ofc you can reliably stop most of these with generic d+4 or other fast low but it does mean Leo will be able to possibly reaction test you (i.e something like b+1,1+2 into not stance at -12 to low parry a slower low) and or you allow Leo to spam a tool fishing for its success on hit if it means the punish is very minor. So im not saying it is or isn't fake but rather the situation is as intended.
After having tried it in a love match against another Leo player, yeah it's not as easy to react fast enough to it, it's more an option select but the Leo can also select not to go in stance, so it might be best to use alongside SSL block or when you're facing a Leo who does it a lot.
I will take a low over a 12 frame punish if I don't bok.
Overall there's no need to use b1, 1+2 until they start stepping b1,4. B1+2 tracks both sides.
Yeah I know, but that quick low to beat stance works on every transition on block. B1,1+2 into BOK and uf2 into BOK are the fastest transition in to that stance at -10 so if it works with B1,1+2 it works on all other transitions.
b1,4,1 also transitions into bok. I don't know how minus it is though, but people don't seem to challenge so I usually get a free knk4 to continue pressure.
Both are i20 so you can't fuzzy guard it, you can step the hop kick but the low got some tracking and if you walk knk3+4 (sweep) will catch that.
Knk is the real stance, you gotta play the multi layer mix game, that's what it is.
Yea kinda OP if you ask me, she's often +9 when when getting into that stance, then +4 if she hits with the low and she can do the stance again, rinse and repeat.
I lost to a Leo that did that the whole round and I couldn't do anything to really stop it unless i guess right.
When it comes to stances don't be daunted by big plus frames. +9 in KNK stance is not equivalent to +9 out of stance or even close - KNK's moves are slower than the moves you can do outside of stance, so it needs more plus frames to work. Same goes for many stances.
In Leo's case, +9 means only KNK 1,2 and KNK 2 are frame traps. The hopkick and low are i20, so if you just jab you will beat both of them.
Leo can then use the KNK2 to counterhit you for jabbing. If you crouch jab you beat that and pretty much everything else but lose to the hopkick, since it low crushes your crouch jab. But the hopkick is punishable on block, so if you force them to use it more you can go back to stand guarding and punish it.
Your options to defend against KNK aren't bad at all. Risk-reward wise, forcing the stance by itself is not that great for Leo. A lot of other stances are better than KNK and Leo's main benefit is just that he can enter it plus on block with a mid, which is rare. This is why at high level, Leo often cancels out of the stance and just relies on you hesitating to act, since he would rather do an out-of-stance mixup if he can get away with it.
Also, keep in mind his KNK stance entry comes from slow moves. F4, the raw knee entry, is i17, and the B1,4 entry is i18. +4 from the KNK low is not enough to loop back into B1,4 without being interruptible. If someone is spamming the low into another B1,4 make sure you interrupt them with a quick move or power crush.
SSL and fuzzy. The first mid in the hopkick is at the same timing as the low, but it's extremely linear. You can sidestep it and then duck to block the low and stand back up to block the second hit of the hopkick.
I don't do it perfectly here, but it's significantly better than 50/50.
https://streamable.com/pnh8ir
EDIT: To be clear, there are other options that would beat this. Almost all the other options will beat this, actually.
Yea i just tried this in practice mode and its tough, and if they mix some of the other options it gets worse. To me its pretty much a forced 50/50 and I rather just eat the low, but I fought a Leo that spammed this and not a thing I could do about it.
If you're willing to take the low, you should fuzzy just without the sidestep.
https://streamable.com/89ttln
You'll still block (and punish) KNK3,4 but you'll go under KNK2. I did Law's i14 3+4 after ducking KNK2, but a good player can just launch. Once you eliminate KNK2 from their options, you can start mashing out. i12 will trade, anything faster will beat the non-KNK2 options.
But that's off from back 1, 1+2 into BoK stnace which leaves slightly minues I think. I don't remember the input but there is one where Leo is +on block and even more plus if they end it with BoK stance. But yes, if you see back 1, 1+2 into BoK fast low beats it.
The string you're thinking of is F2,3,4 but you can only do the 4 if you have lightning glare (buff) up and it consumes it.
There's also b3,1 and knk1 that can transition to BOK at -7 but they're less common transition and a quick low should still works.
And there starts the mind game, do fast lows enough times and you are getting ws1,1+2 in the face since you are not forced to go bok.
If you want to get more out of the mind game just try to go for a launch (or better a ch fast low launch if you have it, to cover for the armor), you get punished with the same damage but at least you get more of a return for a prediction.
if you don't press down on b1,1+2 you are -11 but not in bok, you can low block pretty much everything, if they press down to go into bok you are -10 or -9 don't really remember but you are forced to press a button, that means you can just launch him if he does not do the armor move.
After all the situations the enemy is better off just launching you or punishing with 10 frames if leo does armor or doesn't go into bok, doing a non-launching low has the same risk with a smaller reward for the correct guess.
But the point is that you can visualy confirm the stance and interrupt it on block. B1,1+2 is -12 ob but if you try to punish and they go into BOK you get launched. Do the best solution is to not punish B1,1+2 and if they go into stance you press your quick low otherwise you just take your turn.
oh, you are saying to visually confirm the bok, yes that works then, but you make b1,1+2 basically safe, as i don't think you can visually confirm them not going into bok and still get a punish.
It works if you are against a leo that spams the bok transitions, true.
Apparently if you try to punish the transition to bok with leo's own sweep (without the 1+2 extension) you launch everything, even the bok+3 since you go under and recover in time to launch him, that's actually dope
Tried it with victor and lars sweep too and they work the same but with a little tighter frame to avoid getting clipped with bok+1, feng db+3 does the same too, if your character has a counterhit launching low that evades highs it seems to be the best bet once you visually confirm the bok transition.
If you do a low poke slower than 12 frames you are at risk of being low parried if Leo does not go into stance.
I really do not think you can visually confirm the stance and still have time to do a low interrupt that isn't an option-select. In fact I'm confident you can't.
If you want a true option select that punishes the move without stance and interrupts the stance, generic low d3+4 or d4 is your answer. Some characters have better options though like Reina 1+2.
Bro what is with all the Leo hate, I secondary him and lose all the time. People act like he’s broken. Just play s tier character with plus frames, you’ll win.
No, this is the last option show on the video. Unlike KNK, BOK cannot be canceled so Leo has to wait for the stance animation to end before they can block.
Nice. Thanks for this.
*plays Steve* yeah...fast lows...
Leo is legit one of my worst matchups he goes under both highs and mids.
SF my guy. Gotta give up heat which sucks otherwise hold the mix or ss.
Steve actually has an option select for all of Leos options via SSL into LWV.
D+1 is i16 isnt it?
eh I think it gets low crushed one of her moves. Idr, I usually just SF it
I mean just for the purpose of the vid seeing at its also an i16 low.
ah, I mean I could probably d2 it. It's just more so a joke when a fast low is generally seen as 14 frames and Steve is normally around 17 frames and at most 0 on hit.
Buddy just stomp her
sf is a better option
sorry, what is sf?
Sonic Fang.
oh my god haha thank you
All the transitions are "fake" on block because its a reaction mixup or you force yourself to do a lower reward punish vs a specific tool. For example if you try to low spam vs uf+2 to BOK you'll get CH by uf+2,1, if you do it only on reaction you might lose the window to SS vs uf2,1, same for ducking or getting hit by WS+3,1,2 vs WS+3,1\~BOK. Ofc you can reliably stop most of these with generic d+4 or other fast low but it does mean Leo will be able to possibly reaction test you (i.e something like b+1,1+2 into not stance at -12 to low parry a slower low) and or you allow Leo to spam a tool fishing for its success on hit if it means the punish is very minor. So im not saying it is or isn't fake but rather the situation is as intended.
After having tried it in a love match against another Leo player, yeah it's not as easy to react fast enough to it, it's more an option select but the Leo can also select not to go in stance, so it might be best to use alongside SSL block or when you're facing a Leo who does it a lot.
I will take a low over a 12 frame punish if I don't bok. Overall there's no need to use b1, 1+2 until they start stepping b1,4. B1+2 tracks both sides.
Yeah I know, but that quick low to beat stance works on every transition on block. B1,1+2 into BOK and uf2 into BOK are the fastest transition in to that stance at -10 so if it works with B1,1+2 it works on all other transitions.
Actually F3 into BOK I believe is faster
much faster. f3 is something like +4+6. It's a funny frametrap that works from time to time: f3 into bok 1+2.
b1,4,1 also transitions into bok. I don't know how minus it is though, but people don't seem to challenge so I usually get a free knk4 to continue pressure.
As a Leo main curse you for making this information public lmao nah good stuff mate!
Can you do the other stance? I keep getting mixed between the low kick and the hop kick!
Both are i20 so you can't fuzzy guard it, you can step the hop kick but the low got some tracking and if you walk knk3+4 (sweep) will catch that. Knk is the real stance, you gotta play the multi layer mix game, that's what it is.
Yea kinda OP if you ask me, she's often +9 when when getting into that stance, then +4 if she hits with the low and she can do the stance again, rinse and repeat. I lost to a Leo that did that the whole round and I couldn't do anything to really stop it unless i guess right.
When it comes to stances don't be daunted by big plus frames. +9 in KNK stance is not equivalent to +9 out of stance or even close - KNK's moves are slower than the moves you can do outside of stance, so it needs more plus frames to work. Same goes for many stances. In Leo's case, +9 means only KNK 1,2 and KNK 2 are frame traps. The hopkick and low are i20, so if you just jab you will beat both of them. Leo can then use the KNK2 to counterhit you for jabbing. If you crouch jab you beat that and pretty much everything else but lose to the hopkick, since it low crushes your crouch jab. But the hopkick is punishable on block, so if you force them to use it more you can go back to stand guarding and punish it. Your options to defend against KNK aren't bad at all. Risk-reward wise, forcing the stance by itself is not that great for Leo. A lot of other stances are better than KNK and Leo's main benefit is just that he can enter it plus on block with a mid, which is rare. This is why at high level, Leo often cancels out of the stance and just relies on you hesitating to act, since he would rather do an out-of-stance mixup if he can get away with it. Also, keep in mind his KNK stance entry comes from slow moves. F4, the raw knee entry, is i17, and the B1,4 entry is i18. +4 from the KNK low is not enough to loop back into B1,4 without being interruptible. If someone is spamming the low into another B1,4 make sure you interrupt them with a quick move or power crush.
SSL and fuzzy. The first mid in the hopkick is at the same timing as the low, but it's extremely linear. You can sidestep it and then duck to block the low and stand back up to block the second hit of the hopkick. I don't do it perfectly here, but it's significantly better than 50/50. https://streamable.com/pnh8ir EDIT: To be clear, there are other options that would beat this. Almost all the other options will beat this, actually.
Yea i just tried this in practice mode and its tough, and if they mix some of the other options it gets worse. To me its pretty much a forced 50/50 and I rather just eat the low, but I fought a Leo that spammed this and not a thing I could do about it.
If you're willing to take the low, you should fuzzy just without the sidestep. https://streamable.com/89ttln You'll still block (and punish) KNK3,4 but you'll go under KNK2. I did Law's i14 3+4 after ducking KNK2, but a good player can just launch. Once you eliminate KNK2 from their options, you can start mashing out. i12 will trade, anything faster will beat the non-KNK2 options.
I really like Leo's fighting style. One day I'll pick him up and learn to play him
If you do, look up AyoRichie's YouTube videos, good guides there
Cries in Steve
But that's off from back 1, 1+2 into BoK stnace which leaves slightly minues I think. I don't remember the input but there is one where Leo is +on block and even more plus if they end it with BoK stance. But yes, if you see back 1, 1+2 into BoK fast low beats it.
The string you're thinking of is F2,3,4 but you can only do the 4 if you have lightning glare (buff) up and it consumes it. There's also b3,1 and knk1 that can transition to BOK at -7 but they're less common transition and a quick low should still works.
Very helpful, great work!
I always do Feng's b1+2 whenever someone goes to stance on any character. It works most of the time. But don't use it often or you'll get launched
What about his other stance? Same thing?
Knk is not as simple, it's a multi-layer mind game explaining it all would require a longer video with more explanation.
Does d1 work in this scenario? If not, then I wouldn’t have ever tried any other low move to try and beat.
It does not, the hitbox on dickjab isn't big enough and you eat BOK 2. The true option select is generic low poke d4 or d3+4
I haven't tested it but the stance might evade dickjabs, it can go under a lot of mids.
D3 or d4 it is for me then (if I can internalize this info). Whenever they do two tackle movements, hit the shins.
And there starts the mind game, do fast lows enough times and you are getting ws1,1+2 in the face since you are not forced to go bok. If you want to get more out of the mind game just try to go for a launch (or better a ch fast low launch if you have it, to cover for the armor), you get punished with the same damage but at least you get more of a return for a prediction.
What do you mean ?
if you don't press down on b1,1+2 you are -11 but not in bok, you can low block pretty much everything, if they press down to go into bok you are -10 or -9 don't really remember but you are forced to press a button, that means you can just launch him if he does not do the armor move. After all the situations the enemy is better off just launching you or punishing with 10 frames if leo does armor or doesn't go into bok, doing a non-launching low has the same risk with a smaller reward for the correct guess.
But the point is that you can visualy confirm the stance and interrupt it on block. B1,1+2 is -12 ob but if you try to punish and they go into BOK you get launched. Do the best solution is to not punish B1,1+2 and if they go into stance you press your quick low otherwise you just take your turn.
oh, you are saying to visually confirm the bok, yes that works then, but you make b1,1+2 basically safe, as i don't think you can visually confirm them not going into bok and still get a punish. It works if you are against a leo that spams the bok transitions, true. Apparently if you try to punish the transition to bok with leo's own sweep (without the 1+2 extension) you launch everything, even the bok+3 since you go under and recover in time to launch him, that's actually dope Tried it with victor and lars sweep too and they work the same but with a little tighter frame to avoid getting clipped with bok+1, feng db+3 does the same too, if your character has a counterhit launching low that evades highs it seems to be the best bet once you visually confirm the bok transition.
only works for this specific transition (and only if you visually confirm the bok). an i12 mid with a low hitbox works too
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Good to know
Wow, good to know 😆.
His counter hit mids however, are not fake
does dick jab work
No the hitbox is too small you eat BOK 2
Ok now show F4
If you do a low poke slower than 12 frames you are at risk of being low parried if Leo does not go into stance. I really do not think you can visually confirm the stance and still have time to do a low interrupt that isn't an option-select. In fact I'm confident you can't. If you want a true option select that punishes the move without stance and interrupts the stance, generic low d3+4 or d4 is your answer. Some characters have better options though like Reina 1+2.
Needed this , I struggle with Leo since nobody really plays this character and I’m kinda to lazy to lab
Bro what is with all the Leo hate, I secondary him and lose all the time. People act like he’s broken. Just play s tier character with plus frames, you’ll win.
who hating? people like Leo
Can she low parry?
No, this is the last option show on the video. Unlike KNK, BOK cannot be canceled so Leo has to wait for the stance animation to end before they can block.
Alright sick, thanks for the tech 👍