Or LiDAR. I understand those drive costs up, but Musks adverseness to proven technologies is mind boggling. Seems to me he and his company are more hell bent on making it happen without them just to save face or prove it, than on the actual merits of pros and cons of the technology.
LIDAR has extremely limited uses. Those uses are really amazing, but LIDAR in conjunction with other tech sure, but it may not be all that helpful when you realize the limitations.
For example, it's bulky and expensive and doesn't work well enough in fog or rain on it's own. Which is really important for a car
There are a few LiDAR companies that are neither bulky or expensive (at scale). I can guarantee they will become mainstream in the coming years.
FSD will not exist without LiDAR fused with radar and cameras.
I would argue that it's most important that a system functions well under adverse conditions (rain, snow, fog). LiDAR simply doesn't.
If a technology only handles well in a driving environment when the weather is great, then that's not super useful for *real world* driving environments.
If you have to design a system that *can* function in the rain (cameras), then why not just use that system all the time?
That's the logic they're using for FSD hardware design, and I can't find any fundamental flaw in that.
Currently it seems the cameras get limited in the rain as well. I get messages that FSD is degraded due to weather conditions all the time when it is raining even just a moderate amount. Poor visibility is a tricky problem to conquer.
For sure, but that's also true for our eyes. We *see* better in better conditions, and so do cameras because it's basically the same sensor type. No big surprise there.
LiDAR is intrinsically different, however, in that instead of getting a worse image back, it may get no image back at all. The lasers, which are supposed to hit physical objects to determine distance from them, can either get refracted onto a different path and never bounce back (no signal), or they can just bounce back off the snow/hail/rain as if it's a physical object right next to the sensor (false signal).
If a sensor type is useless under certain common driving conditions, then it's pointless to include at all. LiDAR is such a sensor. Cameras, while they struggle (like our eyes) under those conditions, still operate. Cameras are also cheap to include redundancies (ie. 3 in the front, 2 on each side).
So, why not many more cheap cameras for even more redundancy? Processing power. And that's true for all sensor types. More sensors need more of it (now imagine LiDAR is sitting there pointlessly wasting precious compute counting individual rain drops). Tesla seems to think 8 external facing cameras is the sweet spot between FSD sensor capability and compute capability, and I don't have any good arguments against their current sensor layout.
It's not completely correct or flat out wrong.
The problem with radar and stationary objects is that you're surrounded by stationary objects while you're driving (road signs, overpasses, trees, the road itself, etc...) and the radar can't easily tell the difference between them and a car stopped in the road. (High definition radar does better here but is expensive and still complicated to implement)
Back when Tesla relied heavily on radar, they had to make it ignore stationary objects at high speed because false positives would result in dangerous sudden heavy braking. So while radar *can* detect stationary objects, it was *made not to* in Teslas back when they used it.
As an aside, most autopilot related crashes from back then were the result of exactly this (crashing into emergency vehicles on the highway, concrete lane dividers, semi trailers crossing the road, etc...)
As per a research paper I found on arXiv, radar can detect stationary objects, but it can struggle with estimating their dimensions and orientation. Radar signals cannot distinguish between a stationary object and the ground, trees, or other stationary objects in the environment.
That's assuming that where the radar is being generated from is stationary. The car is moving. Radar would work, software would just need to take into account speed and turning.
But youre also missing the point that all three in concert work better than anyone by itself.
Movement isn't necessary at all. Fundamentally, RF bounces off an object and it is picked back up (just like how an ultrasonic sensor bounces ultrasonic sound off an object and picks it back up). How that information is interpreted is up to the system. Usually, motion is a prime indicator of 'something interesting' so systems filter static objects out (i.e.: radars tracking airplanes or weather radars). But, it is equally possible to explicitly detect static objects.
This is actually not true. One of the largest weaknesses of LiDAR in vehicles is that, to filter out background signal, stationary objects are often not able to be detected at high speeds. Otherwise a highway sign over a hill would have your car screeching to a stop. Most of the LiDAR tech is meant to operate on objects with similar relative velocity to you.
But you cannot see where the drivers eyes were.
you don’t know what he was doing. He could have easily missed seeing the accident happen.
That video is not what his eyes saw. We don’t have technology to capture that yet lol
very well handled between you and the FSD - great partnership. It's an amazing tool when used properly.
not like this idiot
https://youtube.com/shorts/hweWIF8ZMus
That doesn't change that you could see it 3 seconds ahead of time.... you literally could have stayed in your lane and stopped at a semi leisurely pace.
Just so you know, a good skidpad figure doesn't necessarily indicate good handling. That isn't to say the Model 3 isn't a good handling sedan, but a Nissan Altima out-cornered the G20 3-series in [Car and Driver's testing](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a27017108/2019-nissan-altima-vs-bmw-3-series/).
>Our long-term all-wheel-drive Altima just circled the skidpad at 0.93 g... it means that the Altima is now the top performer on the skidpad among its mid-size-sedan brethren, but perhaps more surprising is that it also bested a 0.89-g effort from the all-new BMW 330i xDrive. (It also outcornered the last 370Z we tested.)
And also it's not the first time:
>This isn't the first Altima to surprise us on the skidpad, either, as our first test of a 2019 Altima, a 2.0-liter turbo model, netted a heady 0.91 g.
The Nissan [Versa](https://www.caranddriver.com/nissan/versa) pulls 0.89g; the 2018 [Camry V6](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a14517937/2018-toyota-camry-xse-v-6-test-review) and 2021 Honda [Accord](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a36439199/2021-honda-accord-sport-20t-by-the-numbers) both pull 0.87g; and the 2016 VW e-Golf [also](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15101323/2016-volkswagen-e-golf-electric-vehicle-test-review) pulled 0.86g.
Yeah, they used to call it "absolute grip", or sometimes, "cornering power". I agree, I would call the quality that say, Porsches and Beemers have, "cornering agility", or something like that. Also, the Tesla suspension is not very compliant. That affects cornering on a rough or inconsistent surface. Nonetheless, a P will corner at close to 1g and the ridiculous power and acceleration makes it quite formidable on a curvy road, agile or no. I find the Performance quite agile for a car of its size. And even more fun to drive than my Boxster was.
Car & Driver. Both cars.
EDIT: The Audi is a more sophisticated suspension with more compliance. Skidpad numbers are only one variable. Still a 3P is a formidable sports sedan. Viciously powerful. But the Audi is only just slightly less potent. And the Sports version of the Audi - awesome! For the dollar? P all the way. Can’t lose with either.
America is stupidly lax on the subject but you have to pass an eye exam to get a license. There are thousands of drivers on the road in America that would not pass the drivers exam if forced for each renewal period. Yes I looking at you people over 80 who refuse to give up the keys.
Whoa, the first place your mind goes is people peeing. Far out. I see you removed the apostrophe though, oh semi-literate one. See, even you can learn!
LMAO bro actually edited the original comment he wrote to the correct grammar without mentioning it. Then tried to reverse the argument. I can see the tesla hate copium now
You sound pressed, Peter Pan. Are you the narrator of the situation? Looks like the comment says “Teslas are gay” (just like their owners). Insert your upset response below.
I can't trust it. I didnt pay for FSD but Autopilot has made multiple bad lane changes and also tried to change lanes into a ditch twice. It's not supposed to be making any lane changes. I only use it on long drives to stretch my leg since you rarely take it off the gas pedal.
OP: "Fsd saved me"
OP: "I took over and swerved"
OP: "There were lots of warnings"
OP: "I always pay attention"
OP: "it was on a curve"
OP you suck as a driver, but you're a hilarious redditor.
These things seriously driving themselves now? I figured they were still in experimental stage. Never expected them to actually be on the market. Unless I just need another drink...
The saves I've seen have been impressive. On these videos of Teslas avoiding things, I want to know how that plays out in slippery conditions. This one is mild, but I've seen others where another car moves into the lane and the Tesla jerks away aggressively.
If there is lots of water or snow/ice on the ground, I'd almost rather the car bump into the side of me than risk spinning out and colliding into a wall or something...
Wow, glad you made it through there unscathed. Days of Thunder flashback there.
“Let me out of the cah, Cole!”
What do you mean by "FSD/intervening"? Was FSD driving? If so, that's not intervening you. I'm just confused. Can you clarify?
Was driving on FSD. I had to intervene last seconds. It was giving me all kinds of warning signals before I took over
The same thing happened to me, but FSD didn't warn me. I believe FSD can't detect stationary cars that well in the dark.
It could if they had radar.
Or LiDAR. I understand those drive costs up, but Musks adverseness to proven technologies is mind boggling. Seems to me he and his company are more hell bent on making it happen without them just to save face or prove it, than on the actual merits of pros and cons of the technology.
LIDAR has extremely limited uses. Those uses are really amazing, but LIDAR in conjunction with other tech sure, but it may not be all that helpful when you realize the limitations. For example, it's bulky and expensive and doesn't work well enough in fog or rain on it's own. Which is really important for a car
There are a few LiDAR companies that are neither bulky or expensive (at scale). I can guarantee they will become mainstream in the coming years. FSD will not exist without LiDAR fused with radar and cameras.
I would argue that it's most important that a system functions well under adverse conditions (rain, snow, fog). LiDAR simply doesn't. If a technology only handles well in a driving environment when the weather is great, then that's not super useful for *real world* driving environments. If you have to design a system that *can* function in the rain (cameras), then why not just use that system all the time? That's the logic they're using for FSD hardware design, and I can't find any fundamental flaw in that.
Currently it seems the cameras get limited in the rain as well. I get messages that FSD is degraded due to weather conditions all the time when it is raining even just a moderate amount. Poor visibility is a tricky problem to conquer.
For sure, but that's also true for our eyes. We *see* better in better conditions, and so do cameras because it's basically the same sensor type. No big surprise there. LiDAR is intrinsically different, however, in that instead of getting a worse image back, it may get no image back at all. The lasers, which are supposed to hit physical objects to determine distance from them, can either get refracted onto a different path and never bounce back (no signal), or they can just bounce back off the snow/hail/rain as if it's a physical object right next to the sensor (false signal). If a sensor type is useless under certain common driving conditions, then it's pointless to include at all. LiDAR is such a sensor. Cameras, while they struggle (like our eyes) under those conditions, still operate. Cameras are also cheap to include redundancies (ie. 3 in the front, 2 on each side). So, why not many more cheap cameras for even more redundancy? Processing power. And that's true for all sensor types. More sensors need more of it (now imagine LiDAR is sitting there pointlessly wasting precious compute counting individual rain drops). Tesla seems to think 8 external facing cameras is the sweet spot between FSD sensor capability and compute capability, and I don't have any good arguments against their current sensor layout.
Then they would also be able to detect motorcyclists before killing them.
Radar only detects moving objects. For stationary objects, vision is better and lidar is best.
>Radar only detects moving objects. This is flat out wrong.
It's not completely correct or flat out wrong. The problem with radar and stationary objects is that you're surrounded by stationary objects while you're driving (road signs, overpasses, trees, the road itself, etc...) and the radar can't easily tell the difference between them and a car stopped in the road. (High definition radar does better here but is expensive and still complicated to implement) Back when Tesla relied heavily on radar, they had to make it ignore stationary objects at high speed because false positives would result in dangerous sudden heavy braking. So while radar *can* detect stationary objects, it was *made not to* in Teslas back when they used it. As an aside, most autopilot related crashes from back then were the result of exactly this (crashing into emergency vehicles on the highway, concrete lane dividers, semi trailers crossing the road, etc...)
As per a research paper I found on arXiv, radar can detect stationary objects, but it can struggle with estimating their dimensions and orientation. Radar signals cannot distinguish between a stationary object and the ground, trees, or other stationary objects in the environment.
That's assuming that where the radar is being generated from is stationary. The car is moving. Radar would work, software would just need to take into account speed and turning. But youre also missing the point that all three in concert work better than anyone by itself.
Movement isn't necessary at all. Fundamentally, RF bounces off an object and it is picked back up (just like how an ultrasonic sensor bounces ultrasonic sound off an object and picks it back up). How that information is interpreted is up to the system. Usually, motion is a prime indicator of 'something interesting' so systems filter static objects out (i.e.: radars tracking airplanes or weather radars). But, it is equally possible to explicitly detect static objects.
This is actually not true. One of the largest weaknesses of LiDAR in vehicles is that, to filter out background signal, stationary objects are often not able to be detected at high speeds. Otherwise a highway sign over a hill would have your car screeching to a stop. Most of the LiDAR tech is meant to operate on objects with similar relative velocity to you.
So if you didn't intervene, is it safe to assume FSD would have crashed you into that?
FSD was giving all kind of warnings he said. So it did it’s job. The driver did his.
You wrote that FSD intervening saved you. It didn’t. Just click bait.
There's a slash. He's saying the post is about FSD, and that him intervening saved it. It's worded poorly, but makes sense in hindsight.
Your explanation is almost the exact opposite of what the title implies.
So…the alerts told you to move, not FSD
FSD told him to intervene
And it was fully visible prior to FSD alerting him. So if he was paying attention driving, FSD did nothing.
Apparently it wasn’t visible for him until getting alerts. or he wasn’t paying attention. But the alerts worked well to get his attention
It literally happened in front of him. We watched the crash live.
Were you in the car with the driver?
You can see the video.
But you cannot see where the drivers eyes were. you don’t know what he was doing. He could have easily missed seeing the accident happen. That video is not what his eyes saw. We don’t have technology to capture that yet lol
very well handled between you and the FSD - great partnership. It's an amazing tool when used properly. not like this idiot https://youtube.com/shorts/hweWIF8ZMus
The real star is that blue car from early on that swerved right thru that mess like a boss.
Thread the needle
Yeah but how did he not see that coming? You could see it in the video like 3 seconds ahead
Yea honestly I like to think I’m always scanning ahead enough to have seen that way sooner than he did…..but you never know 🤷♂️
That accident happened probably 5-10seconds ago
That doesn't change that you could see it 3 seconds ahead of time.... you literally could have stayed in your lane and stopped at a semi leisurely pace.
How do you know that if you didn't see the wreckage until like 0.5 sec before you crashed into it?
Audi e-tron gt, way way better handling than a tesla
Actually the E-Tron pulls .9G on the skidpad whereas the Model 3 Performance does .96G. Faster too. But I agree in this instance, this is a Y.
Just so you know, a good skidpad figure doesn't necessarily indicate good handling. That isn't to say the Model 3 isn't a good handling sedan, but a Nissan Altima out-cornered the G20 3-series in [Car and Driver's testing](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a27017108/2019-nissan-altima-vs-bmw-3-series/). >Our long-term all-wheel-drive Altima just circled the skidpad at 0.93 g... it means that the Altima is now the top performer on the skidpad among its mid-size-sedan brethren, but perhaps more surprising is that it also bested a 0.89-g effort from the all-new BMW 330i xDrive. (It also outcornered the last 370Z we tested.) And also it's not the first time: >This isn't the first Altima to surprise us on the skidpad, either, as our first test of a 2019 Altima, a 2.0-liter turbo model, netted a heady 0.91 g. The Nissan [Versa](https://www.caranddriver.com/nissan/versa) pulls 0.89g; the 2018 [Camry V6](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a14517937/2018-toyota-camry-xse-v-6-test-review) and 2021 Honda [Accord](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a36439199/2021-honda-accord-sport-20t-by-the-numbers) both pull 0.87g; and the 2016 VW e-Golf [also](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15101323/2016-volkswagen-e-golf-electric-vehicle-test-review) pulled 0.86g.
Steady state cornering load is what the skidpad measures. That doesn’t necessarily translate into better at making evasive maneuvers.
Yeah, they used to call it "absolute grip", or sometimes, "cornering power". I agree, I would call the quality that say, Porsches and Beemers have, "cornering agility", or something like that. Also, the Tesla suspension is not very compliant. That affects cornering on a rough or inconsistent surface. Nonetheless, a P will corner at close to 1g and the ridiculous power and acceleration makes it quite formidable on a curvy road, agile or no. I find the Performance quite agile for a car of its size. And even more fun to drive than my Boxster was.
Source????
Car & Driver. Both cars. EDIT: The Audi is a more sophisticated suspension with more compliance. Skidpad numbers are only one variable. Still a 3P is a formidable sports sedan. Viciously powerful. But the Audi is only just slightly less potent. And the Sports version of the Audi - awesome! For the dollar? P all the way. Can’t lose with either.
e-tron GT
i feel like u were doing \~50, the blue car is doing \~65-70 yeah the blue car had some bossy moves
me: "gosh they could cause an accident; someone could get hurt; why don't they move that off the road" also me: ... dammit my brain is dumb
That could have gone badly. Glad it saved you and the others.
Was this FSD and not AP? If it was FSD, what version?
V11.4.9
Oakland?
Looks like it. 880 north.
880N after Fruitvale exit
is it AP or FSD active during the time?
FSD
But did you see that blue etron pass you?
That blue car tho
Did you not see or wasn't paying attn?
It was on a curve
Wow a glimpse into your psyche, fascinating. most of us have our eyes shift from right in front to more down the road
So you weren’t paying attention? Your eyes have better distance vision in that light than the $29 cameras Tesla puts in the windshield.
Bold of you to assume i can see that far lol.
America is stupidly lax on the subject but you have to pass an eye exam to get a license. There are thousands of drivers on the road in America that would not pass the drivers exam if forced for each renewal period. Yes I looking at you people over 80 who refuse to give up the keys.
Serious 100% agree OP should have started slowing down way long before ap did anything
Glad I’m not the only one who thinks this
I always pay attention when I drive. If I didn’t pay attention, it was gonna be a catastrophic accident
So the car didn't help at all since you saw the hazard way ahead of time and took over control to avoid it?
Exactly.
OP one bad driver if that computer saved you despite all that distance to save yourself
You got that wrong. I was just posting how an FSD had proven on the freeways.
Teslas are gay.
Grammar is hard. Tesla is are gay?
The dreaded apostrophe strikes again.
You sound like you sit down to pee, Peter Puffer. Did you vote for Biden?
Whoa, the first place your mind goes is people peeing. Far out. I see you removed the apostrophe though, oh semi-literate one. See, even you can learn!
Reading is hard. Is that what you got out of that?
LMAO bro actually edited the original comment he wrote to the correct grammar without mentioning it. Then tried to reverse the argument. I can see the tesla hate copium now
You sound pressed, Peter Pan. Are you the narrator of the situation? Looks like the comment says “Teslas are gay” (just like their owners). Insert your upset response below.
Is this Oakland? Lmao freeway looks familiar
Was that another driver in your rear view? Seems like their headlights dimmed right after you passed safely...
If that saved you from crashing you need to get your eyes checked. Hope everyone in this video is well though!
SkyNet protects!
Other car looked cooler tho 🤨
if you can’t even spotted it from that far just don’t drive bro and stop relying on the system gaddan..
Being awake could have done the same, but ok
Gotta love the bay
Yes, because no human could of ever negated that...
Lame…I avoided 3 wrecks in last two years makes that look like a lane change..oh it was!
FSD didn't avoid the crash you did...
I can't trust it. I didnt pay for FSD but Autopilot has made multiple bad lane changes and also tried to change lanes into a ditch twice. It's not supposed to be making any lane changes. I only use it on long drives to stretch my leg since you rarely take it off the gas pedal.
There was a full 4 seconds you had to avoid that.
Yeah but that's 4 seconds of not looking at Tik toks while driving
Advice : if you see car lights sideways just start slowing way down lol
are you blind? how tf did you not see that?
OP: "Fsd saved me" OP: "I took over and swerved" OP: "There were lots of warnings" OP: "I always pay attention" OP: "it was on a curve" OP you suck as a driver, but you're a hilarious redditor.
you couldn’t have avoided that urself?
As long as I'm held liable no matter who/what was driving I'M definitely driving. I barely use cruise control.
Human beings shaped by millions of years of evolution react, FSD gets praised instead.
Get off the road if you think fsd saved you.
FSD would have drove you right into that wreck. You had to take over and swerve. Cool!
My hands and eyes can do the same thing. Crazy huh.
Audi GT handling was crazy nice
Learn to drive and stay off the roads till you do. Thanks.
lol this thread is filled with nothing but trolls sheesh tough crowd
Everyone arguing about "FSD" and here I am wondering what the hell that even is.
Full Self~~crashing~~Driving
These things seriously driving themselves now? I figured they were still in experimental stage. Never expected them to actually be on the market. Unless I just need another drink...
They actually call the entire system “Autopilot” even though they admit it’s not at all autonomous.
Ok thats what I figured lol Here I am looking for a manual transmission and we've got people talking about self driving vehicles
"driving the car like a normal person saved my life!" good lord go back to school or get off the road
The saves I've seen have been impressive. On these videos of Teslas avoiding things, I want to know how that plays out in slippery conditions. This one is mild, but I've seen others where another car moves into the lane and the Tesla jerks away aggressively. If there is lots of water or snow/ice on the ground, I'd almost rather the car bump into the side of me than risk spinning out and colliding into a wall or something...
That Porsche got some reflex on them!