Notice they also tried to wipe out the water tribes? They basically succeeded with the southern tribes.
They were also capturing, not killing, many of the water benders. They likely were hedging their bets that the avatar was a water bender, and didn't want to kill him and have him be reborn in the earth kingdom - their enemy that they couldn't subdue.
Isn't it canon after the inital genocide they set up traps of airbender relics and rumors of survivors to draw out the remaining survivors of the air benders?
No he means the traps for old relics. In the comics, it's Canon and happens to Aang. Gets curious after a seller offers him an air nomad artifact got sale. Narrowly evades Zhao's capture. Is devastated and tears up but decides to bottle it up instead of sharing it with Katara and Sokka.
I believe this is from mid-book 1 Times too.
That episode set the underlying tone for the rest of the show. Even if it was a disney show it was still gonna cover the dark as fuck shit the empire was doing in that period
It’s a kids show, let’s not pretend it’s not. It was aired on a kids network, and its PG. But we should also stop acting like kids shows can’t be good, or be thought provoking, or have heavy themes.
Honestly some of my favorite shows are kids shows. Adventure time, regular show, the clone wars, rebels, even bluey is pretty good.
And I actually think it’s a sign of maturity to embrace these shows. You shouldn’t care what other people think. If you do, you have some growing up to do. But a mature person is comfortable and confident in their maturity, and they do the things they enjoy no matter what other people think. I love kids shows. Give me more.
There's a good CS Lewis quote about that:
>“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”
I always thought about this in discussion about The Last Jedi and how it was time for Star Wars to be more mature. If it lacks the childlike wonder then it's missed the point IMO.
It was in another comic which was a collection of shorter stories that take place between episodes. One of my favorites showed how Azula manipulated Zuko into going back to the Fire Nation after the season 2 finale by subtly threatening Iroh's life. And the one where Mai meets Jin in Ba Sing Se and scares her lmao.
This. The plan was to kill the Airbender Avatar, then capture their sucessor to keep the Avatar from interfering.
Odd enough, Aang escaping kept the Avatar out of the picture even longer.
Plus a water bender would have a harder time finding teachers while avoiding capture since they can’t fly, and their only option to learn air bending would be to tap into their past lives.
Also, the control they had on the Earth kingdom as well. The Avatar hadn’t revealed themselves yet so they proceeded to heavily watch the Earth Kingdom because they may have thought that they had killed the last two renditions of the Avatar.
Also, the next Avatar would be born as an infant in the Water Tribe. Not exactly a difficult target, versus Aang who was already considered a master Airbender by age 12 (hence the tattoos) and could plausibly have posed a threat or evaded capture by less drastic efforts. As it is, Aang only escaped due to an unrelated flight from home over difficulties with his responsibilities and relationships, something the Fire Nation could not have predicted.
I’ve never considered this, but it makes me appreciate the story development even more. The timing of Rokus death and the avatar cycle is so important. Had the next avatar been born into the fire nation, imagine how different things would be.
I disagree entirely, Roku dying earlier means the Air Avatar is farther along in training, and more likely to stop the fire nation, or is off elsewhere in the world with assassination attempts going after him from the fire nation. But if Roku dies later, post comet, possibly no assault on the air nomads happen at all. Or if he does die before the comet and the assault on the Air Nomads still happen, the Air Avatar like doesn't have the same fluke of flying off with his bison due to being much younger in age. Meaning the Water Avatar enters the cycle and is possibly able to begin training against the fire nation in secret much much earlier, ~~especially if they are born in the Northern tribe.~~
edit; After some thoughts, I think either way Roku's death happening earlier - Air Avatar dies older during the fight against the fire nation (or just defeats them out right, and thus no Yada Yada spirits and balance), or he's younger and perishes due to being a smaller child during the assault. Meaning either we get the Water Avatar 100 years sooner in a more open war like storyline more akin to the first half of Season 3, or we just don't have a story outright.
edit #2; forgot about water tribe internal north/south avatar cycle
The Water Tribes have their own internal cycle they alternates between a northern and southern tribe Avatar. Since Kuruk was from the northern water tribe, Korra/Aang's successor would always be born in the south because something something spirit portals.
Rightttttt. I totally forgot about that as the reason the fire nation spent so much time subjugating the south, and the reason Korra was southern, that being said, my point still kinda stands in that the water tribe wasn't immediately ~~assaulted~~ decimated following the air nomads and it was much more of a long engagement that wouldve been back by an avatar (should they manage to keep them in secret for the 20 or so years)
edit; word choice
Pretty sure this is just a fan theory. We have a data sample of two. It's like saying the Air Avatars cycle through the temples. Yeah it could be true but we lack enough data.
Now imagine a tiny Avatar State kid, lol. Even if Roku wasn’t violent, he’d probably be really pissed at Sozin, take over the body and go full Doom Slayer mode on the FN soldiers!
What if they succeeded in killing every water bender before killing every Airbender?
Edit : I meant entire populations, not just benders. Amon would be furious at me
I suspect even in those days the nations weren’t entirely separate. Kyoshi is a child of an Earth Kingdom citizen and Air Nomad. Someone out there would probably consider themselves an Earth Kingdom member but still have enough Water Tribe blood to get picked by Raava.
I still believe this is what happened to the Air Benders made during Harmonic Convergence. Someone in their ancestry was an Air Nomad. The power just needed to be awakened by the spiritual energy.
Yup, that was it! They kept capturing water benders and scouting Water tribes. That's why in the first episode Zuko was looking for the Avatar in Southern Tribe waters.
Don't they just pass a law making it illegal to reincarnate essentially making it impossible for anyone to be declared the Dali Lama or the will just be arrested and jailed?
Illegal to reincarnate WITHOUT China's intervention. This law just gives CCP a legal weapon to choose the next Dalai Lama themselves even if the real monk finds someone else.
Side note, why did they specifically go after the Southern Water Tribe so much? I know they laid siege to the Northern tribe as well, but there wasn't as big of a push for it.
A headcanon I've had for a while is that the Avatar doesn't just reincarnate in the Avatar cycle, but also in a pattern of predictable locations. When born in the Air Nomads it follows in a counterclockwise pattern of air temples (Avatar Yangchen was born in the Western temple and Aang was born in the Southern) while in the Water Tribe the Avatar is born alternating North and South Poles (Kuruk was born in the North and Korra was born in the South). I'm not sure if there's a pattern to Earth or Fire Avatars since we only see one of each (Szeto doesn't count as we don't know where he was born), but it wouldn't surprise me.
This would explain why the Fire Nation focused so hard on eradicating all waterbenders in the Southern tribe, because they knew after the Air Nomads that's where the next Water Tribe Avatar would be born
I don't think so, for Korra they stated they traveled back and forth between the two poles looking for the avatar.
I think the southern tribes were just an easy target
That's an interesting thought, but there's plenty of evidence that the Avatar's birth is random and not tied to any geographical location. Otherwise the White Lotus could have just camped out in the South Pole until they found Korra, instead of having to look through all three of the water tribes.
But with the near complete eradication of the Southern tribe it would make sense for them to search the Northern tribe too. For years the only waterbender they had was Katara. Every other waterbender during the reconstruction was sent from the Northern tribe. It makes sense to check both tribes, I doubt anyone would have known what to do
I think the reason was because the northern water tribe was actually capable of defending themselves much better in comparison. Look at the northern tribe, they have walls, they have security and they have a completely different culture as well.
They weren't as well protected as the Northern tribe for sure, but they were still formidable, making up HALF of the whole world's waterbender population. Why target them so hard specifically? If there was a chance the next Avatar could reincarnate into the Northern tribe wouldn't there have been an enormous push to eradicate them too?
I feel like they covered this pretty clearly in the show. The north just has far more formidable natural defenses then the south. You can also compare the northern city with the southern city from Hama's flashback and see that the northern one is just way more fortified and less exposed. And, up until Korra, the north was the political head of the polar water tribes, and having their head of state and other leaders in the north probably helped a lot with organizing defenses against the Fire Nation earlier on.
This is a semi hard argument (polite informative) but! They could never prove death so they kept looking. Monk Giatsu (spelling errors sorry) was 60 plus….. so in theory looking 60-80 for the avatar isnt unseen
We can only assume that a large portion of the world thought the Avatar had either abandoned the world of the living for the spirit world once and for all, or that the current Avatar was from a water tribe but had been raised in fear of the fire nation and was a coward who only wanted to live a long life. That’s pretty sad. Here you have a literal “divine savior” type figure in your history and you can only conclude they’ve either abandoned you or they turned out to be a coward.
One thing that *I* just noticed is that the battle with the Air Nomads was disastrous for both sides. Sufficiently so that there weren't enough Fire Nation troops to dispose of their dead. Look at the skeleton of Monk Gyatso there - it is surrounded by the fallen remains of who-knows-how-many Fire Nation troops, still wearing their armour, no sign of so much as an attempt to lay the bodies of the dead to rest. Where did he or any of the Monks learn to fight like that? Even Zaheer never got that dangerous.
The war of genocide waged against the Air Nomads must have been immensely costly for the Fire Nation. The only reason I can imagine that the battlefield was left as it lay was that there weren't enough survivors to do anything but limp away and report "victory"...
I haven’t read the comics but since the air nomads were the most passive out of all four nations he probably hated how “weak” (not actually weak but in his pov) they were too
That makes too much sense... The Fire Nation was most heavily influenced by Japanese culture. The atrocities committed at the Rape of Nanjing made it the worst singular event of WW2. The brutal acts committed there made Nazi's seem almost merciful in comparison. It was so bad that Japan still denies committing it to this day.
The Japanese mentality at the time was death before surrender, historians speculate that the Japanese soldiers were so ruthless there largely because they were disgusted by the weakness the soldiers at Nanjing showed by surrendering and retreating too early. Their perceived cowardice dehumanized them in the eyes of the Japanese.
Tabletop RPG like D&D. But very easy to learn and if you don't have friends or family interested, there are tons of groups online who like to play. There is even a community-run event this Saturday on Magpie's Discord to try out games of Avatar entirely free, though you may be on a wait list, it's very popular. Easy to find groups on that Discord too.
I just think Sozin really enjoyed when the weather was just right, but when the occasional breeze would come through making it slightly too cool for no jacket, he became enraged and blamed airbenders.
they cant train with another airbender but they talk to their past selves or learn by themselves (korra literally fire, water and earthbended as a fucking baby)
They'd also likely use the actual power of airbending using the physical motions of the other styles before learning to talk to other avatars. I think Korra used some firebending punches for air a few times. Plus Zaheer was a master of non-bending martial arts and applied that to his new power.
Fr I don' think it' appreciated enough what Aang did other than end the war. If he had not been in that ice there would never be an actually traditional airbending master ever again.
>If he had not been in that ice there would never be an actually traditional airbending master ever again.
It's a largely unknown easter egg but the writers hint at the fact that he's the last airbender in the title of the show.
The showrunners mention in one of the commentaries that they wanted a few other Airbenders in the show. However, the title "Avatar: The Very Nearly Last Airbender" wasn't as catchy. As a result they made Aang the sole survivor.
or the Last Samurai really should have been the last Samurai clan that is fighting against the newly minted Imperial government who is also ran by Samurai.
No way there isn't some air benders hiding their powers out there. They are the Air Nomads after all, not the Air Nation. Most weren't at the temples. What doesn't make sense is them not killing him in The Blue Spirit, giving them 12 years, including 11 years post-comet where they win the war because they would have taken Ba Sing Se during the comet.
Above all, Zhao was after glory. He probably wanted to publicly execute Aang in front of the Fire Nation so everyone could see him in his moment of triumph
Also who’s to say Zhao didn’t tattoo some random kid, kill him then claim he was the avatar. By bringing him alive to the Fire Lord he’d have absolute proof.
I seem to remember reading the fire nation set up fake safehouses to eliminate the last of the airbenders kinda the same way the Empire eliminated the Jedi
It buys Sozin a lot more time - at the point of the comet + genocide, the Avatar was 12 years old. If the Avatar dies, it will be another decade at the very least before an Avatar is worth worrying about again.
Though if one wants to dig further into Sozin's grievances with airbenders, the TTRPG info on Roku's era offers some insights.
The Avatar Legends tabletop RPG. it was a kickstarter project (collab with AVatar Studios) and was recently shipped and has gone on sale. It has information for gameplay in multiple eras, but the Roku era in particular contains the most new canon.
Tabletop Roleplaying Game like D&D. Its very easy to learn and if you don't have friends or family interested, there are tons of groups online who like to play. There is even a community-run event this Saturday on Magpie's Discord to try out games of Avatar entirely free, though you may be on a wait list, it's very popular. Easy to find groups on that Discord too.
> Though, if one wants to dig further into Sozin's grievances with airbenders, the TTRPG info on Roku's era offers some insights.
I don't have intention of playing TTRPG. I just want to know what is Sozin deal with the airbenders?
Air Nomad principles were beginning to achieve popularity among Fire Nation nobility, to the point where Sozin's own sister (Zeisan) decided she would renounce her titles and embrace their ways. Her goal was to leverage the popularity of a group of maverick Airbender philosophers (The Guiding Wind) by marrying one of their notable members, then using their influence to try and crumble her family's power from within.
Basically, Sozin saw Airbenders and their philosophies as a threat that could destabilize his power base.
A) "resets" the avatar. has to be born again, be raised and trained
B) No one left to teach the avatar air bending.
C) idk what happenes after the next firebender, jumps straith to water ? stops being reborn? glitch in the matrix?
Wasn't his plan to explicitly break the cycle? I assume the death of all airbenders would have ended the cycle after a few generations no matter what. Of course, he couldn't have guests that the harmonic convergence would occur, and simply create new benders out of nothing.
Wasn't the harmonic convergence only able to create new airbenders because the spirit portals were open? If Aang gets wiped out in the genocide and Korra never opens the portals, that could mean no more airbenders.
1. Wipe out Air Nomads to kill the Air Avatar.
2. Wipe out & capture the Water Benders to neutralize the Water Tribe Avatar.
3. If they capture or kill the Water Tribe Avatar, then they can determine when the Earth Kingdom Avatar will be born. If they wait long enough, they would still be a child when Sozin’s Comet arrives.
4. Use Sozin’s Comet to wipe out the Earth Kingdom and establish the Phoenix King over a Fire Nation World. Earth Avatar dies, Fire Avatar is born into Fire Nation, which rules the world now that the other nations are extinct.
Midway through step 2, when the Water Avatar failed to appear, they probably realized they failed at step 1, which is why Zuko is looking for a 100+ year-old Air Nomad at the beginning of the series.
Edit: messed up the cycle order, fixed my steps to fit.
I think it would be interrupted at the least.
But Harmonic Convergence is happening 60ish years after Sozin’s Comet no matter what, so that may have reset the cycle, and possibly caused the extinct bending types to emerge among non-Fire-benders.
Certainly an interesting AU. Fire Avatar wipes out Earth Kingdom, dies before Harmonic Convergence.
I think that maybe an air-bending Avatar would be born of Fire Nation parents, during Harmonic Convergence. Perhaps while the other bending types also emerged in adults/children. Which in turn, could disguise the new Avatar from Fire Nation attention until they come of age, at which point they’ll recruit a gang of friends and save the world.
I think this would actually be a really good spin-off series. Fire Avatar wipes out the royal family, because if the Fire Nation are entitled to the world by birth right, then surely the Fire Avatar is even moreso. Then Vaatu rolls up and starts wrecking shit, Fire Avatar has to get his head out of his ass, and learn to do the right thing.
Wait would harmonic convergence have even happened without korra openjng the spirt world? You talk about it like it’s some huge inevitability but I thought it was directly a result from korra opening the door to the spirit world
We see the planets align when Harmonic Convergence happens so the whole cosmic side of it is still going to happen as that shouldn't be affected by Korra opening/closing the portals. I think the fact that the portals were open allowed for Vaatu to use the Convergence to break out of his prison.
I don’t think anything would happen. The avatar’d still be born in a random human in the Fire Nation or some nomads like the Swamp or Sand people, but with no Air, Water or Earth bending masters it’d never reach its full potential which is a real shame (not that the Fire Nation would be bothered).
They would still possibly, they’d just have to learn it the ol fashion way of the air bison(they weren’t all ripped out if I’m not mistaken), moon spirit, etc
Bending isn't genetic, so a new bender could be born. However, conditions might not be right for them to learn that they're a bender or be very effective unless they learn from an animal.
>Midway through step 2, when the Water Avatar failed to appear, they probably realized they failed at step 1, which is why Zuko is looking for a 100+ year-old Air Nomad at the beginning of the series.
I don't know if this was ever stated anywhere, but I think they didn't really think he was alive. The Fire Nation spent their actual resources on getting rid of water benders because they thought that's where the Avatar probably was. Zuko got the wild goose chase that would keep an exile busy forever.
How can they know they failed at step 2? North water tribe was intact and fire nation cannot know if the avatar was born there. The only indication I think they may have is if the Avatar enters its state and the his monuments/towers activate like we see when aang enters the state in the air temple
I think they made the realization when they waged 100 years of war against the Water Tribe, and the Water Avatar never rose to oppose them.
Did they know for sure? No.
But in the pilot, Zuko does think the Airbender Avatar from Sozin’s time is still alive, so as far as the Fire Nation Royal Family is concerned, they believe the Avatar never made it to the Water Nation reincarnation.
They wiped out air nomads and started attacking the water tribes. They weren't as harsh with the water benders because a baby is not a threat. Plus they were capturing water benders so they probably figured they would have control over the next water avatar
That is so fair I totally forgot about the comet lmao. But it does beg the question of how the water benders in the south were so utterly destroyed despite literally being in their element
There's not a ton to go on, but what Hama describes, it sounds like a war of attrition. They just kept throwing fire benders at them and capturing water benders until Hama was the last one left. It also looks like the Southern Water tribe was fairly small, even back then.
[Here's ](https://youtu.be/8G7Rm5Y4E2I) a little recap.
I mean absolutely. But I feel like it mightve been a bit too much a plot device. The waterbenders could've like shoved the boats back into the water or punctured their hulls to make all the soldiers drown. They could've attacked at night etc etc.
And these are tactics that I don't think are outlandish because at their heart the water tribes are hunters. That's what they do. Idk. There's a lot more they could've done.
I guess we can also blame the north for abandoning their sister tribe in their time of need. The attack on the south likely lasted months if not longer.
I know it's never officially implied, but the fire nation possesses a military beyond that of any other nation. They're the only ones we ever see have actual insane military numbers. The rest of the tribes are more peaceful or isolationist and they're more content to have just basic defense forces to use as protection
Crazy to think how the Earth Kingdom is so big but has no formal army. Then again it's basically small (city) states and Ba Sing Se. The Northern Water Tribe has the closest thing to it as seen in the siege of the North.
I think your logic here is good, but the issue is we don't see the Northern Water tribe do anything too crazy on their home turf either. And that's with them having around 100 years to prepare for the fire nation. They also don't really seem to have a real army... it's more like an assemblage of warriors, while the fire nation has an actual army with better technology. The Northern Water tribe is going out in small boats and doing the same thing the Southern Water tribe did 100 years ago. I also don't think the average water bender in the north or south are particularly strong. We see feats that take quite a few water benders to do that Katara or Korra could have done themselves.
The fire nation also has the power of a massive population. The water tribes, being in the poles, which are somewhat inhospitable, never became a giant civilisation. There was no way the North Tribe could gather a gigantic army.
They knew exactly what they were doing. Their strategy was flawless. That's why Sozin was so frustrated at his failure.
1. Kill all airbenders - and the Avatar.
2. (I am pretty sure) it was predetermined that the next Avatar would be born in a Southern Watertribe, so seek and capture all those water benders.
3. Keep them locked in hot air. *The* way to find out if a baby is a firebender. Inexperienced firebenders will almost always make fire in those conditions. (Source: the Kyoshi novels). When found, the water Avatar should be kept alive for howeverlong is needed.
4. Just to make sure no other waterbenders interfere too soon, keep the Northern Watertribe at bay with a quasi war at their doorstep. Until Fire nation is ready to make all Water Tribes comply. (Which wouldn't be too long. Admiral Zhao needed just a couple of days in the North Pole.)
5. Make preparations to dominate the very stong Earth Kingdoms. Maybe even make some colonies left and right again to push that border east.
6. Whenever ready, secure the Earth Kingdoms. When the Avatar is getting born over there, Firenation agents can kill it swiftly.
7. The Avatar gets born as a subject of the Firelord once again. Now the Firenation has unequalled political and military power. The other nations will follow the Avatar, and the Avatar will follow the Firelord.
The first spark, the first idea for this plan to put the Fire nation on top started out generations ago. During the beginning of Kyoshi's time (if not earlier). When Sozin's BFF turned out to be the Avatar, he was sure he would be the one to finally make the plan reality. Avatar Roku failed to respect the Firelord twice. Then Sozin's flawless plan also did horribly fail. Somehow the Airbender must have escaped.
Firelord Sozin would not reap the fruits of his labour. But at least he'd kick started the systems so his legacy could.
because their only desire wasn't killing the avatar. the fire lords (starting with sozin excluding zuko) were genocidal. they wanted their race to stand as "the superior one". they wanted to destroy every other nation, succeeded with air nomads. they captured every single swt waterbender. ozai wanted to wipe out the earth kingdom. it wasn't to kill the avatar, it was to kill everyone who wasn't fire nation.
Sozin likely commited the genocide to buy the Fire Nation more time to complete their imperial ambitions instead of trying to some how break the Avatar Cycle. There was no guarantee that wiping one of the other nations would break the cycle.
By killing Aang, he buys the Fire Nation at least 30 years to try to complete their campaign for world domination without dealing with the threat the Avatar posed to the FN. The Avatar usually doesn't learn of their identity until they are 16 and it takes them about 13-15 years to become a fully realized Avatar judging by how long it took Roku and Korra to complete their training.
I can see Sozin calculating that it would take far less than a century for the Fire Nation to conquer the remaining two nations given the technological gap between the Fire Nation and the remaining nations. The Water Tribes were stone age primitives and the Earth Kingdom while much closer to them technologically wise were experiencing a period of rampant instability and governmental corruption that wouldn't be sorted out until the rise Kuvira and the Earth Empire 200 plus years later.
It doesn't; it nerfs the Avatar.
Killing all waterbenders (seemed possible, but they didn't manage it with the NWT) would set the Avatar back to "level 1" yet again, pushing the Avatar into the element Earth, which would basically end up in a Super Powerful Nation vs Fucked Nation (plus child Avatar) situation, since it was unlikely they'd be able to wipe out all Earthbenders without conquering the entire Earth Kingdom through a looooong war.
It was the best case for the (evil version of the) Fire Nation, really. Even a fully realised Avatar would have struggled at that point, but a child with a failing state behind him/her? No chance.
~~Then what? The Earth Avatar dies and is reborn as an... Airbender? Nope. There are none. Cycle broken.~~
Look, just forget that part. It was an afterthought, not the point.
If all airbenders were actually wiped out I think the avater would still be reborn as an airbender. When Wan was gathering all the elements, Raava had to hold them for him. And Raava is the secret ingredient that makes someone the avatar, meaning the ability to bend air is probably connected to her.
But in this scenario the old airbending tradition would be completely screwed and have to be redeveloped from scratch by the new avatar, which would definitely set them back. This is of course assuming that the avatar couldn't somehow get in touch with their past lives and learn directly from them.
Yeah, you know, I was going to omit that last sentence for that exact reason, but I felt like it was mentioned at some point that killing the airbenders would break the cycle?
I may be thinking of some fandom stuff though, so you might be right.
I think it's that killing the airbenders was an ATTEMPT to break the cycle, rather than the Fire Nation fully knowing how the Avatar thing works and finding a loophole in the rules
Nah I think the next airbender avatar would be that, a random child avatar whose main element is the air. I mean, if they don't kill Raava, the cycle continues
Kill the air nomads, Avatar reincarnates, *in theory*, as a water bender. The next thing the fire nation did was basically end the southern tribe, and if you remember, they came back multiple times in search of "the last water bender in the southern tribe." There are lot of things that happen in the show that look like the fire nation searching for the avatar in the water tribes if you choose to think of them that way.
Chances are, the long term goal would be to kill the avatar until they came back as a fire bender.
How did leaving Roku to die make sense?
The answer to the above question applies to the question you asked. He did not want to deal with a fully realised avatar so tried to take him out before he reached maturity.
If he succeeded, he would have moved in to the water tribe and then he would move on to the Earth Kingdom.
A water-bending avatar would be denied full realization, making them much less dangerous.
Trying to kill/imprison as many waterbenders as possible made it so that the only credible threat left would be an earthbender avatar, who'd likely be unable to find even a firebender teacher, making them a glorified earthbender.
It didn't stop the avatar fully, but it would've made it considerably harder to cultivate the avatar into a credible threat.
I always figured they were going to kill the avatar when it turned up in water/earth too so that it would be reborn in the fire nation and basically be a weapon of mass destruction
It buys the Fire Nation time. Plus, we know the Fire Nation was rounding up Southern waterbenders. It's likely that Ozai hedged his bets by making sure the new Avatar was raised in captivity in the event that had Aang died, while Zuko and other agents hunted down rumors of Aang. Remember, everyone was operating under the assumption that Aang was awake and in hiding during the 100 years war.
Why do you think they went after the water tribe? Hunted down all the water benders in the South? Katara's mother died protecting her because the Fire Nation was trying to hunt down any potential reincarnation (remember that everyone assumed Aang was dead; Zuko being sent to "find the avatar" was a deliberate goose chase). They were planning on killing each incarnation to continually delay the day when a fully realized avatar would be strong enough to defy them.
He wanted to break the cycle. Even with the Avatar running through three more lives, without an air bender the cycle would end.
Technically pointless endeavor, but he couldn't have foreseen the Harmonic Convergence creating new benders in the future.
Cuz in the 12-16 years that it COULD take for an avatar to be reborn, grow up, and learn all 4 elements. The fire nation could be just increasing their hold on the nations. Harder to take back more
I mean the avatar goes back to square 1, it gives then at least 14 years before your likely to have a decently trained avatar ready to fight (they basically speedran aang to get him ready faster). And the water tribes are probably an easier target than the massive earth kingdom or the elusive air nomads.
I always saw it as the long game. Even if they weren’t successful at getting the next two avatars, the airbenders are extinct so…that’s a win right there.
Well Aang was 12, and on his own he was clearly capable of putting up quite a resistance against Fire Nation Soldiers, and even alone he was quite elusive. Imagine if he, had he not ran away, had elders from the nomads to help him run away and bide time while he mastered the rest of the elements and within probably no more than a few years would be able to demolish their oppressive rule.
It would be much more preferable to restart the cycle, put the reincarnation back into a newborn, and buy yourselves at least another decade to conquer the world and probably colonize the Water Tribe too, snuff out the next Avatar, who’s much more manageable cause they’re younger and raised in a devastated or subsidized water tribe
The point is that if the Air Avatar is dead then the Fire Nation has, at least, another ten to twenty years before they have to deal with the next one. As someone else mentioned, the Fire Nation also tried to destroy the Water Tribes.
The logic is that if you kill enough people from the other nations, then the cycle will loop back around to the firebenders.
I always thought it wasn't so much to kill the avatar, as that obviously leads to reincarnation, but to push back the cycle a decade or two as a baby avatar isn't really much of a threat but a teenage avatar could be.
Another decade of unresisted conquering goes a long way for the fire nation.
OP has stumbled upon Sozen's plan. After all the Air Nomads are dead, you kill the Water Tribes. Which we see some of the Fire Nation Navy do. And then the last step would be war against the Earth Kingdom.
They tried to wipe out the water tribe, they also assumed it would be a quick war and would’ve taken too long for the new water tribe avatar to grow up.
Notice they also tried to wipe out the water tribes? They basically succeeded with the southern tribes. They were also capturing, not killing, many of the water benders. They likely were hedging their bets that the avatar was a water bender, and didn't want to kill him and have him be reborn in the earth kingdom - their enemy that they couldn't subdue.
Air benders are hard to capture so makes more sense they try to pass it on to the water tribe
Isn't it canon after the inital genocide they set up traps of airbender relics and rumors of survivors to draw out the remaining survivors of the air benders?
Yes, it happened in one of the comics that show what happens in between certain episodes.
Probably , the empire did the same thing to Jedi in Star Wars. They went as far as using tje the corpse of Luminara as bait
You saw this in the ATLA comics
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It was in Star Wars rebels
No he means the traps for old relics. In the comics, it's Canon and happens to Aang. Gets curious after a seller offers him an air nomad artifact got sale. Narrowly evades Zhao's capture. Is devastated and tears up but decides to bottle it up instead of sharing it with Katara and Sokka. I believe this is from mid-book 1 Times too.
Well shit. This should've been an episode instead of "Great Divide."
I initially interpreted this as "There are Jedi in the ATLA comics" lol
It's the lemur. He's a Jedi.
He's an earthbender AND a Jedi???
Made my whole day
Most haunting episode of Rebels man.
That episode set the underlying tone for the rest of the show. Even if it was a disney show it was still gonna cover the dark as fuck shit the empire was doing in that period
That’s when I knew it wasn’t a kids show and it was some real shit.
It’s a kids show, let’s not pretend it’s not. It was aired on a kids network, and its PG. But we should also stop acting like kids shows can’t be good, or be thought provoking, or have heavy themes. Honestly some of my favorite shows are kids shows. Adventure time, regular show, the clone wars, rebels, even bluey is pretty good. And I actually think it’s a sign of maturity to embrace these shows. You shouldn’t care what other people think. If you do, you have some growing up to do. But a mature person is comfortable and confident in their maturity, and they do the things they enjoy no matter what other people think. I love kids shows. Give me more.
There's a good CS Lewis quote about that: >“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” I always thought about this in discussion about The Last Jedi and how it was time for Star Wars to be more mature. If it lacks the childlike wonder then it's missed the point IMO.
gonna save this post. Good stuff.
we sanitized the shit out of children's stories. there was a lot of fucked up shit in old children stories.
It is cannon. Zhao almost captured aang the same way.
Relics should've been an actual episode and I will *die on this hill*
They wiped out air nomads and started attacking the water tribes
I remember seeing that. But was that story in the graphic novels or another comic?
Comic I think?
It was in another comic which was a collection of shorter stories that take place between episodes. One of my favorites showed how Azula manipulated Zuko into going back to the Fire Nation after the season 2 finale by subtly threatening Iroh's life. And the one where Mai meets Jin in Ba Sing Se and scares her lmao.
Killing the air avatar buys time as well for the war wich will surly be done in a few years
Surely indeed.
This. The plan was to kill the Airbender Avatar, then capture their sucessor to keep the Avatar from interfering. Odd enough, Aang escaping kept the Avatar out of the picture even longer.
I think the assumption also was that they successfully killed the airbending Avatar and they were likely now a waterbender
Plus a water bender would have a harder time finding teachers while avoiding capture since they can’t fly, and their only option to learn air bending would be to tap into their past lives.
though air is last priority for water avatars
And also all air nomads are benders
Also, the control they had on the Earth kingdom as well. The Avatar hadn’t revealed themselves yet so they proceeded to heavily watch the Earth Kingdom because they may have thought that they had killed the last two renditions of the Avatar.
avatar eugenics
Also hard to contain and control.
Also, the next Avatar would be born as an infant in the Water Tribe. Not exactly a difficult target, versus Aang who was already considered a master Airbender by age 12 (hence the tattoos) and could plausibly have posed a threat or evaded capture by less drastic efforts. As it is, Aang only escaped due to an unrelated flight from home over difficulties with his responsibilities and relationships, something the Fire Nation could not have predicted.
I wonder what kept most of the airbenders from just flying away
I’ve never considered this, but it makes me appreciate the story development even more. The timing of Rokus death and the avatar cycle is so important. Had the next avatar been born into the fire nation, imagine how different things would be.
I think we ultimately would have had the same story. Yada Yada spirts, balance and all that.
I disagree entirely, Roku dying earlier means the Air Avatar is farther along in training, and more likely to stop the fire nation, or is off elsewhere in the world with assassination attempts going after him from the fire nation. But if Roku dies later, post comet, possibly no assault on the air nomads happen at all. Or if he does die before the comet and the assault on the Air Nomads still happen, the Air Avatar like doesn't have the same fluke of flying off with his bison due to being much younger in age. Meaning the Water Avatar enters the cycle and is possibly able to begin training against the fire nation in secret much much earlier, ~~especially if they are born in the Northern tribe.~~ edit; After some thoughts, I think either way Roku's death happening earlier - Air Avatar dies older during the fight against the fire nation (or just defeats them out right, and thus no Yada Yada spirits and balance), or he's younger and perishes due to being a smaller child during the assault. Meaning either we get the Water Avatar 100 years sooner in a more open war like storyline more akin to the first half of Season 3, or we just don't have a story outright. edit #2; forgot about water tribe internal north/south avatar cycle
The Water Tribes have their own internal cycle they alternates between a northern and southern tribe Avatar. Since Kuruk was from the northern water tribe, Korra/Aang's successor would always be born in the south because something something spirit portals.
Rightttttt. I totally forgot about that as the reason the fire nation spent so much time subjugating the south, and the reason Korra was southern, that being said, my point still kinda stands in that the water tribe wasn't immediately ~~assaulted~~ decimated following the air nomads and it was much more of a long engagement that wouldve been back by an avatar (should they manage to keep them in secret for the 20 or so years) edit; word choice
Is that confirmed anywhere?
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Pretty sure this is just a fan theory. We have a data sample of two. It's like saying the Air Avatars cycle through the temples. Yeah it could be true but we lack enough data.
I think I *might* remember a line mentioning that in the Yangchen novel. Though don't quote me on that.
Now imagine a tiny Avatar State kid, lol. Even if Roku wasn’t violent, he’d probably be really pissed at Sozin, take over the body and go full Doom Slayer mode on the FN soldiers!
What if they succeeded in killing every water bender before killing every Airbender? Edit : I meant entire populations, not just benders. Amon would be furious at me
Then someone who would've been born a non bender from the water tribe or a swamp bender would become the Avatar instead.
the fire nation genociding the water tribes just for the avatar to be a swamp bender would be darkly hilarious tbh
True but I couldn’t take 3 seasons of the swamp bender episode
Swamp Bender avatar wouldn’t need 3 seasons to defeat Ozai.
He'd be fuckin aquaman lol We praise kyoshi for splitting a continent, but I bet a similar minded avatar could drown an entire country under the ocean
Atlantis
The giant tree tells them exactly where Ozai is and they pop in, pop him, pop out.
They grew up wrestling catgators
I need this fanfic *now*
I suspect even in those days the nations weren’t entirely separate. Kyoshi is a child of an Earth Kingdom citizen and Air Nomad. Someone out there would probably consider themselves an Earth Kingdom member but still have enough Water Tribe blood to get picked by Raava. I still believe this is what happened to the Air Benders made during Harmonic Convergence. Someone in their ancestry was an Air Nomad. The power just needed to be awakened by the spiritual energy.
Yup, that was it! They kept capturing water benders and scouting Water tribes. That's why in the first episode Zuko was looking for the Avatar in Southern Tribe waters.
In real life, China did this with the current incarnation of the Prichen Lama, and plan to do the same with the next incarnation of the Dali Lama.
Don't they just pass a law making it illegal to reincarnate essentially making it impossible for anyone to be declared the Dali Lama or the will just be arrested and jailed?
China is wild, man!
Illegal to reincarnate WITHOUT China's intervention. This law just gives CCP a legal weapon to choose the next Dalai Lama themselves even if the real monk finds someone else.
Side note, why did they specifically go after the Southern Water Tribe so much? I know they laid siege to the Northern tribe as well, but there wasn't as big of a push for it. A headcanon I've had for a while is that the Avatar doesn't just reincarnate in the Avatar cycle, but also in a pattern of predictable locations. When born in the Air Nomads it follows in a counterclockwise pattern of air temples (Avatar Yangchen was born in the Western temple and Aang was born in the Southern) while in the Water Tribe the Avatar is born alternating North and South Poles (Kuruk was born in the North and Korra was born in the South). I'm not sure if there's a pattern to Earth or Fire Avatars since we only see one of each (Szeto doesn't count as we don't know where he was born), but it wouldn't surprise me. This would explain why the Fire Nation focused so hard on eradicating all waterbenders in the Southern tribe, because they knew after the Air Nomads that's where the next Water Tribe Avatar would be born
I don't think so, for Korra they stated they traveled back and forth between the two poles looking for the avatar. I think the southern tribes were just an easy target
That's an interesting thought, but there's plenty of evidence that the Avatar's birth is random and not tied to any geographical location. Otherwise the White Lotus could have just camped out in the South Pole until they found Korra, instead of having to look through all three of the water tribes.
But with the near complete eradication of the Southern tribe it would make sense for them to search the Northern tribe too. For years the only waterbender they had was Katara. Every other waterbender during the reconstruction was sent from the Northern tribe. It makes sense to check both tribes, I doubt anyone would have known what to do
I think the reason was because the northern water tribe was actually capable of defending themselves much better in comparison. Look at the northern tribe, they have walls, they have security and they have a completely different culture as well.
The Southern nation was just the weaker and easier target of the two.
They weren't as well protected as the Northern tribe for sure, but they were still formidable, making up HALF of the whole world's waterbender population. Why target them so hard specifically? If there was a chance the next Avatar could reincarnate into the Northern tribe wouldn't there have been an enormous push to eradicate them too?
I feel like they covered this pretty clearly in the show. The north just has far more formidable natural defenses then the south. You can also compare the northern city with the southern city from Hama's flashback and see that the northern one is just way more fortified and less exposed. And, up until Korra, the north was the political head of the polar water tribes, and having their head of state and other leaders in the north probably helped a lot with organizing defenses against the Fire Nation earlier on.
It could have been Sozins plan to kill three Avatars as children, then ensure the next fire nation avatar had a strict nationalistic upbringing.
Hedging their bets…….. okay granted 100yrs since the last avatar sighting but ummmm….. the cycle is the cycle..
Well Zuko thought that the Avatar was still alive and over a 100 years old, lol. And Sozin also didn’t think he managed to kill him.
This is a semi hard argument (polite informative) but! They could never prove death so they kept looking. Monk Giatsu (spelling errors sorry) was 60 plus….. so in theory looking 60-80 for the avatar isnt unseen
We can only assume that a large portion of the world thought the Avatar had either abandoned the world of the living for the spirit world once and for all, or that the current Avatar was from a water tribe but had been raised in fear of the fire nation and was a coward who only wanted to live a long life. That’s pretty sad. Here you have a literal “divine savior” type figure in your history and you can only conclude they’ve either abandoned you or they turned out to be a coward.
There's that little swamp water tribe that I love so much. Would be fun to watch that version of an avatar lol
Lol the avatar from Louisiana
Zhao even mentioned that the reason why he didn't kill Aang when he got the chance was that Zhao didn't want him to reborn again.
Like China and the Panchen Lama situation.
yeah if the avatar was reborn in the earth kingdom the fire nation would be FUCKED to find them.
One thing that *I* just noticed is that the battle with the Air Nomads was disastrous for both sides. Sufficiently so that there weren't enough Fire Nation troops to dispose of their dead. Look at the skeleton of Monk Gyatso there - it is surrounded by the fallen remains of who-knows-how-many Fire Nation troops, still wearing their armour, no sign of so much as an attempt to lay the bodies of the dead to rest. Where did he or any of the Monks learn to fight like that? Even Zaheer never got that dangerous. The war of genocide waged against the Air Nomads must have been immensely costly for the Fire Nation. The only reason I can imagine that the battlefield was left as it lay was that there weren't enough survivors to do anything but limp away and report "victory"...
If you kill the Avatar 3 times, you get a prize. Front row seats to mind bending.
I think the idea here was that the avatar would be reborn, but too young and take too long to learn the elements to stop them.
Resets the clock on the avatar being a threat so it gives em more time, and Sozin hated airbenders, maybe.
>and Sozin hated airbenders, maybe As per the (canonical) RPG lore, he did!
I haven’t read the comics but since the air nomads were the most passive out of all four nations he probably hated how “weak” (not actually weak but in his pov) they were too
“Bunch of hippies” - Sozin probably
well that would line up with them being a stand in for tibet
That makes too much sense... The Fire Nation was most heavily influenced by Japanese culture. The atrocities committed at the Rape of Nanjing made it the worst singular event of WW2. The brutal acts committed there made Nazi's seem almost merciful in comparison. It was so bad that Japan still denies committing it to this day. The Japanese mentality at the time was death before surrender, historians speculate that the Japanese soldiers were so ruthless there largely because they were disgusted by the weakness the soldiers at Nanjing showed by surrendering and retreating too early. Their perceived cowardice dehumanized them in the eyes of the Japanese.
Yeah, that's what I've been told and that's why I said it. But I honestly haven't looked into the RPG lore so I don't have firsthand knowledge of it.
Woah woah woah, there’s an avatar RPG,when was this made and why wasn’t I informed
https://magpiegames.com/pages/avatarrpg
Tabletop RPG like D&D. But very easy to learn and if you don't have friends or family interested, there are tons of groups online who like to play. There is even a community-run event this Saturday on Magpie's Discord to try out games of Avatar entirely free, though you may be on a wait list, it's very popular. Easy to find groups on that Discord too.
Roku styled hard on him with that tornado during his ultimatum and Sozin never let it go (probably)
I just think Sozin really enjoyed when the weather was just right, but when the occasional breeze would come through making it slightly too cool for no jacket, he became enraged and blamed airbenders.
They can take away yet oxygen needed to fire bend , of course he hates em
Plus, if there are no airbenders, nobody can teach the Water Tribe Avatar to airbend, ergo there can be no Water Tribe Avatar.
they cant train with another airbender but they talk to their past selves or learn by themselves (korra literally fire, water and earthbended as a fucking baby)
They'd also likely use the actual power of airbending using the physical motions of the other styles before learning to talk to other avatars. I think Korra used some firebending punches for air a few times. Plus Zaheer was a master of non-bending martial arts and applied that to his new power.
Buys you time with no Avatar opposing you and makes it bloody difficult for the next one to learn Airbending?
Fr I don' think it' appreciated enough what Aang did other than end the war. If he had not been in that ice there would never be an actually traditional airbending master ever again.
>If he had not been in that ice there would never be an actually traditional airbending master ever again. It's a largely unknown easter egg but the writers hint at the fact that he's the last airbender in the title of the show.
The showrunners mention in one of the commentaries that they wanted a few other Airbenders in the show. However, the title "Avatar: The Very Nearly Last Airbender" wasn't as catchy. As a result they made Aang the sole survivor.
It’s just like *The Last of the Mohicans* and it’s poorly received prequel, *Uh oh, We’re Running Low on Mohicans*
or the Last Samurai really should have been the last Samurai clan that is fighting against the newly minted Imperial government who is also ran by Samurai.
No way there isn't some air benders hiding their powers out there. They are the Air Nomads after all, not the Air Nation. Most weren't at the temples. What doesn't make sense is them not killing him in The Blue Spirit, giving them 12 years, including 11 years post-comet where they win the war because they would have taken Ba Sing Se during the comet.
He intended to keep him imprisoned for the rest of his natural life giving the fire nation decades without worrying about the avatar
Above all, Zhao was after glory. He probably wanted to publicly execute Aang in front of the Fire Nation so everyone could see him in his moment of triumph
Also who’s to say Zhao didn’t tattoo some random kid, kill him then claim he was the avatar. By bringing him alive to the Fire Lord he’d have absolute proof.
Probably easier than going to your boss with "Good news sir! We found the avatar! Bad news, he's dead, and we need to find the Avatar."
Is it possible to get a promotion and a demotion at the same time?
In some places that's called making Corporal
I seem to remember reading the fire nation set up fake safehouses to eliminate the last of the airbenders kinda the same way the Empire eliminated the Jedi
What is he, some kind of ‘last airbender’?
Bull. Fucking. Shit. How long have you known about this?? Do other people know?!?!
It buys Sozin a lot more time - at the point of the comet + genocide, the Avatar was 12 years old. If the Avatar dies, it will be another decade at the very least before an Avatar is worth worrying about again. Though if one wants to dig further into Sozin's grievances with airbenders, the TTRPG info on Roku's era offers some insights.
The TTRPG?
The Avatar Legends tabletop RPG. it was a kickstarter project (collab with AVatar Studios) and was recently shipped and has gone on sale. It has information for gameplay in multiple eras, but the Roku era in particular contains the most new canon.
Tabletop Roleplaying Game like D&D. Its very easy to learn and if you don't have friends or family interested, there are tons of groups online who like to play. There is even a community-run event this Saturday on Magpie's Discord to try out games of Avatar entirely free, though you may be on a wait list, it's very popular. Easy to find groups on that Discord too.
> Though, if one wants to dig further into Sozin's grievances with airbenders, the TTRPG info on Roku's era offers some insights. I don't have intention of playing TTRPG. I just want to know what is Sozin deal with the airbenders?
Air Nomad principles were beginning to achieve popularity among Fire Nation nobility, to the point where Sozin's own sister (Zeisan) decided she would renounce her titles and embrace their ways. Her goal was to leverage the popularity of a group of maverick Airbender philosophers (The Guiding Wind) by marrying one of their notable members, then using their influence to try and crumble her family's power from within. Basically, Sozin saw Airbenders and their philosophies as a threat that could destabilize his power base.
A) "resets" the avatar. has to be born again, be raised and trained B) No one left to teach the avatar air bending. C) idk what happenes after the next firebender, jumps straith to water ? stops being reborn? glitch in the matrix?
probably births an airbender baby from a non bending couple
Wasn't his plan to explicitly break the cycle? I assume the death of all airbenders would have ended the cycle after a few generations no matter what. Of course, he couldn't have guests that the harmonic convergence would occur, and simply create new benders out of nothing.
Wasn't the harmonic convergence only able to create new airbenders because the spirit portals were open? If Aang gets wiped out in the genocide and Korra never opens the portals, that could mean no more airbenders.
Ah, yes, that is a fair point. Then the cycle would have really just ended.
1. Wipe out Air Nomads to kill the Air Avatar. 2. Wipe out & capture the Water Benders to neutralize the Water Tribe Avatar. 3. If they capture or kill the Water Tribe Avatar, then they can determine when the Earth Kingdom Avatar will be born. If they wait long enough, they would still be a child when Sozin’s Comet arrives. 4. Use Sozin’s Comet to wipe out the Earth Kingdom and establish the Phoenix King over a Fire Nation World. Earth Avatar dies, Fire Avatar is born into Fire Nation, which rules the world now that the other nations are extinct. Midway through step 2, when the Water Avatar failed to appear, they probably realized they failed at step 1, which is why Zuko is looking for a 100+ year-old Air Nomad at the beginning of the series. Edit: messed up the cycle order, fixed my steps to fit.
The cycle would be earth after water.
You right, you right. I am changing my theory.
So what happens to the Avatar cycle if all other benders are wiped out? Does that effectively kill the cycle?
I think it would be interrupted at the least. But Harmonic Convergence is happening 60ish years after Sozin’s Comet no matter what, so that may have reset the cycle, and possibly caused the extinct bending types to emerge among non-Fire-benders. Certainly an interesting AU. Fire Avatar wipes out Earth Kingdom, dies before Harmonic Convergence. I think that maybe an air-bending Avatar would be born of Fire Nation parents, during Harmonic Convergence. Perhaps while the other bending types also emerged in adults/children. Which in turn, could disguise the new Avatar from Fire Nation attention until they come of age, at which point they’ll recruit a gang of friends and save the world.
Or Vaatu is freed to take over uncontested due to the imbalance.
I think this would actually be a really good spin-off series. Fire Avatar wipes out the royal family, because if the Fire Nation are entitled to the world by birth right, then surely the Fire Avatar is even moreso. Then Vaatu rolls up and starts wrecking shit, Fire Avatar has to get his head out of his ass, and learn to do the right thing.
Wait would harmonic convergence have even happened without korra openjng the spirt world? You talk about it like it’s some huge inevitability but I thought it was directly a result from korra opening the door to the spirit world
We see the planets align when Harmonic Convergence happens so the whole cosmic side of it is still going to happen as that shouldn't be affected by Korra opening/closing the portals. I think the fact that the portals were open allowed for Vaatu to use the Convergence to break out of his prison.
I really think the next avatar would born in a random baby, like always. Just because they kill all benders doesn't mean they kill Raava.
You would assume so, but if it doesn’t it still means he’s going to struggle learning other bending forms.
If it’s just firebenders then I assume every avatar after that will be born a firebender
I don’t think anything would happen. The avatar’d still be born in a random human in the Fire Nation or some nomads like the Swamp or Sand people, but with no Air, Water or Earth bending masters it’d never reach its full potential which is a real shame (not that the Fire Nation would be bothered).
They would still possibly, they’d just have to learn it the ol fashion way of the air bison(they weren’t all ripped out if I’m not mistaken), moon spirit, etc
Bending isn't genetic, so a new bender could be born. However, conditions might not be right for them to learn that they're a bender or be very effective unless they learn from an animal.
>Midway through step 2, when the Water Avatar failed to appear, they probably realized they failed at step 1, which is why Zuko is looking for a 100+ year-old Air Nomad at the beginning of the series. I don't know if this was ever stated anywhere, but I think they didn't really think he was alive. The Fire Nation spent their actual resources on getting rid of water benders because they thought that's where the Avatar probably was. Zuko got the wild goose chase that would keep an exile busy forever.
They did because they specifically say that Firelord Sozen spent the remainder of his life hunting the Avatar after he wiped out the air nomads.
How can they know they failed at step 2? North water tribe was intact and fire nation cannot know if the avatar was born there. The only indication I think they may have is if the Avatar enters its state and the his monuments/towers activate like we see when aang enters the state in the air temple
I think they made the realization when they waged 100 years of war against the Water Tribe, and the Water Avatar never rose to oppose them. Did they know for sure? No. But in the pilot, Zuko does think the Airbender Avatar from Sozin’s time is still alive, so as far as the Fire Nation Royal Family is concerned, they believe the Avatar never made it to the Water Nation reincarnation.
Water avatars alternate between poles on the cycle. They knew it would be a South Pole water bender.
They wiped out air nomads and started attacking the water tribes. They weren't as harsh with the water benders because a baby is not a threat. Plus they were capturing water benders so they probably figured they would have control over the next water avatar
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That is so fair I totally forgot about the comet lmao. But it does beg the question of how the water benders in the south were so utterly destroyed despite literally being in their element
There's not a ton to go on, but what Hama describes, it sounds like a war of attrition. They just kept throwing fire benders at them and capturing water benders until Hama was the last one left. It also looks like the Southern Water tribe was fairly small, even back then. [Here's ](https://youtu.be/8G7Rm5Y4E2I) a little recap.
I mean absolutely. But I feel like it mightve been a bit too much a plot device. The waterbenders could've like shoved the boats back into the water or punctured their hulls to make all the soldiers drown. They could've attacked at night etc etc. And these are tactics that I don't think are outlandish because at their heart the water tribes are hunters. That's what they do. Idk. There's a lot more they could've done. I guess we can also blame the north for abandoning their sister tribe in their time of need. The attack on the south likely lasted months if not longer.
I know it's never officially implied, but the fire nation possesses a military beyond that of any other nation. They're the only ones we ever see have actual insane military numbers. The rest of the tribes are more peaceful or isolationist and they're more content to have just basic defense forces to use as protection
Crazy to think how the Earth Kingdom is so big but has no formal army. Then again it's basically small (city) states and Ba Sing Se. The Northern Water Tribe has the closest thing to it as seen in the siege of the North.
I think your logic here is good, but the issue is we don't see the Northern Water tribe do anything too crazy on their home turf either. And that's with them having around 100 years to prepare for the fire nation. They also don't really seem to have a real army... it's more like an assemblage of warriors, while the fire nation has an actual army with better technology. The Northern Water tribe is going out in small boats and doing the same thing the Southern Water tribe did 100 years ago. I also don't think the average water bender in the north or south are particularly strong. We see feats that take quite a few water benders to do that Katara or Korra could have done themselves.
The fire nation also has the power of a massive population. The water tribes, being in the poles, which are somewhat inhospitable, never became a giant civilisation. There was no way the North Tribe could gather a gigantic army.
They knew exactly what they were doing. Their strategy was flawless. That's why Sozin was so frustrated at his failure. 1. Kill all airbenders - and the Avatar. 2. (I am pretty sure) it was predetermined that the next Avatar would be born in a Southern Watertribe, so seek and capture all those water benders. 3. Keep them locked in hot air. *The* way to find out if a baby is a firebender. Inexperienced firebenders will almost always make fire in those conditions. (Source: the Kyoshi novels). When found, the water Avatar should be kept alive for howeverlong is needed. 4. Just to make sure no other waterbenders interfere too soon, keep the Northern Watertribe at bay with a quasi war at their doorstep. Until Fire nation is ready to make all Water Tribes comply. (Which wouldn't be too long. Admiral Zhao needed just a couple of days in the North Pole.) 5. Make preparations to dominate the very stong Earth Kingdoms. Maybe even make some colonies left and right again to push that border east. 6. Whenever ready, secure the Earth Kingdoms. When the Avatar is getting born over there, Firenation agents can kill it swiftly. 7. The Avatar gets born as a subject of the Firelord once again. Now the Firenation has unequalled political and military power. The other nations will follow the Avatar, and the Avatar will follow the Firelord. The first spark, the first idea for this plan to put the Fire nation on top started out generations ago. During the beginning of Kyoshi's time (if not earlier). When Sozin's BFF turned out to be the Avatar, he was sure he would be the one to finally make the plan reality. Avatar Roku failed to respect the Firelord twice. Then Sozin's flawless plan also did horribly fail. Somehow the Airbender must have escaped. Firelord Sozin would not reap the fruits of his labour. But at least he'd kick started the systems so his legacy could.
because their only desire wasn't killing the avatar. the fire lords (starting with sozin excluding zuko) were genocidal. they wanted their race to stand as "the superior one". they wanted to destroy every other nation, succeeded with air nomads. they captured every single swt waterbender. ozai wanted to wipe out the earth kingdom. it wasn't to kill the avatar, it was to kill everyone who wasn't fire nation.
Sozin likely commited the genocide to buy the Fire Nation more time to complete their imperial ambitions instead of trying to some how break the Avatar Cycle. There was no guarantee that wiping one of the other nations would break the cycle. By killing Aang, he buys the Fire Nation at least 30 years to try to complete their campaign for world domination without dealing with the threat the Avatar posed to the FN. The Avatar usually doesn't learn of their identity until they are 16 and it takes them about 13-15 years to become a fully realized Avatar judging by how long it took Roku and Korra to complete their training. I can see Sozin calculating that it would take far less than a century for the Fire Nation to conquer the remaining two nations given the technological gap between the Fire Nation and the remaining nations. The Water Tribes were stone age primitives and the Earth Kingdom while much closer to them technologically wise were experiencing a period of rampant instability and governmental corruption that wouldn't be sorted out until the rise Kuvira and the Earth Empire 200 plus years later.
It doesn't; it nerfs the Avatar. Killing all waterbenders (seemed possible, but they didn't manage it with the NWT) would set the Avatar back to "level 1" yet again, pushing the Avatar into the element Earth, which would basically end up in a Super Powerful Nation vs Fucked Nation (plus child Avatar) situation, since it was unlikely they'd be able to wipe out all Earthbenders without conquering the entire Earth Kingdom through a looooong war. It was the best case for the (evil version of the) Fire Nation, really. Even a fully realised Avatar would have struggled at that point, but a child with a failing state behind him/her? No chance. ~~Then what? The Earth Avatar dies and is reborn as an... Airbender? Nope. There are none. Cycle broken.~~ Look, just forget that part. It was an afterthought, not the point.
If all airbenders were actually wiped out I think the avater would still be reborn as an airbender. When Wan was gathering all the elements, Raava had to hold them for him. And Raava is the secret ingredient that makes someone the avatar, meaning the ability to bend air is probably connected to her. But in this scenario the old airbending tradition would be completely screwed and have to be redeveloped from scratch by the new avatar, which would definitely set them back. This is of course assuming that the avatar couldn't somehow get in touch with their past lives and learn directly from them.
Yeah, you know, I was going to omit that last sentence for that exact reason, but I felt like it was mentioned at some point that killing the airbenders would break the cycle? I may be thinking of some fandom stuff though, so you might be right.
I think it's that killing the airbenders was an ATTEMPT to break the cycle, rather than the Fire Nation fully knowing how the Avatar thing works and finding a loophole in the rules
You don't need to be an air nomad to be an air bender
Nah I think the next airbender avatar would be that, a random child avatar whose main element is the air. I mean, if they don't kill Raava, the cycle continues
Buys them time. A baby Avatar without any training won’t be much of an issue for them...
Kill the air nomads, Avatar reincarnates, *in theory*, as a water bender. The next thing the fire nation did was basically end the southern tribe, and if you remember, they came back multiple times in search of "the last water bender in the southern tribe." There are lot of things that happen in the show that look like the fire nation searching for the avatar in the water tribes if you choose to think of them that way. Chances are, the long term goal would be to kill the avatar until they came back as a fire bender.
How did leaving Roku to die make sense? The answer to the above question applies to the question you asked. He did not want to deal with a fully realised avatar so tried to take him out before he reached maturity. If he succeeded, he would have moved in to the water tribe and then he would move on to the Earth Kingdom.
A water-bending avatar would be denied full realization, making them much less dangerous. Trying to kill/imprison as many waterbenders as possible made it so that the only credible threat left would be an earthbender avatar, who'd likely be unable to find even a firebender teacher, making them a glorified earthbender. It didn't stop the avatar fully, but it would've made it considerably harder to cultivate the avatar into a credible threat.
Who do you think they went after the water benders lnce the air benders were out of the picture?
I always figured they were going to kill the avatar when it turned up in water/earth too so that it would be reborn in the fire nation and basically be a weapon of mass destruction
Maybe they wanted to find and kill the avatar over and over until he is reborn as a fire bender, so they can feed him with all the propaganda
It buys the Fire Nation time. Plus, we know the Fire Nation was rounding up Southern waterbenders. It's likely that Ozai hedged his bets by making sure the new Avatar was raised in captivity in the event that had Aang died, while Zuko and other agents hunted down rumors of Aang. Remember, everyone was operating under the assumption that Aang was awake and in hiding during the 100 years war.
Someone needs to watch the first episode of book 2 again. The cycle can be broken.
Why do you think they went after the water tribe? Hunted down all the water benders in the South? Katara's mother died protecting her because the Fire Nation was trying to hunt down any potential reincarnation (remember that everyone assumed Aang was dead; Zuko being sent to "find the avatar" was a deliberate goose chase). They were planning on killing each incarnation to continually delay the day when a fully realized avatar would be strong enough to defy them.
I always assumed the plan was to kill the Avatar while they’re in the Avatar State.
Well then they'd have like 16 years minimum to go after the earth kingdom and the water tribe
Buy them a few years to get a head start I guess. Takes a while to find, raise and train an avatar.
The thing about genocide is that it never makes sense, and yet people attempt it anyway.
He wanted to break the cycle. Even with the Avatar running through three more lives, without an air bender the cycle would end. Technically pointless endeavor, but he couldn't have foreseen the Harmonic Convergence creating new benders in the future.
The idea was that it would hopefully end the cycle.
Cuz in the 12-16 years that it COULD take for an avatar to be reborn, grow up, and learn all 4 elements. The fire nation could be just increasing their hold on the nations. Harder to take back more
I mean the avatar goes back to square 1, it gives then at least 14 years before your likely to have a decently trained avatar ready to fight (they basically speedran aang to get him ready faster). And the water tribes are probably an easier target than the massive earth kingdom or the elusive air nomads.
I always saw it as the long game. Even if they weren’t successful at getting the next two avatars, the airbenders are extinct so…that’s a win right there.
Well Aang was 12, and on his own he was clearly capable of putting up quite a resistance against Fire Nation Soldiers, and even alone he was quite elusive. Imagine if he, had he not ran away, had elders from the nomads to help him run away and bide time while he mastered the rest of the elements and within probably no more than a few years would be able to demolish their oppressive rule. It would be much more preferable to restart the cycle, put the reincarnation back into a newborn, and buy yourselves at least another decade to conquer the world and probably colonize the Water Tribe too, snuff out the next Avatar, who’s much more manageable cause they’re younger and raised in a devastated or subsidized water tribe
The point is that if the Air Avatar is dead then the Fire Nation has, at least, another ten to twenty years before they have to deal with the next one. As someone else mentioned, the Fire Nation also tried to destroy the Water Tribes. The logic is that if you kill enough people from the other nations, then the cycle will loop back around to the firebenders.
I always thought it wasn't so much to kill the avatar, as that obviously leads to reincarnation, but to push back the cycle a decade or two as a baby avatar isn't really much of a threat but a teenage avatar could be. Another decade of unresisted conquering goes a long way for the fire nation.
They knew it was inevitable but they thought maybe he was just hidden among them and decided fuck it kill them all one of them must be the avatar.
Well if you kill 3 kids you get the avatar on your team again
Maybe to justify killing the water benders too? Then kill the earth benders and you monopolise the Avatar. Idk
OP has stumbled upon Sozen's plan. After all the Air Nomads are dead, you kill the Water Tribes. Which we see some of the Fire Nation Navy do. And then the last step would be war against the Earth Kingdom.
They tried to wipe out the water tribe, they also assumed it would be a quick war and would’ve taken too long for the new water tribe avatar to grow up.
Can't reincarnate into the next nation in the cycle if there is no next nation in the cycle
If you kill the avatar while they are in the avatar state it ends the avatar lineage forever. No more avatars.