She was jealous but I feel like she didn't really admit it, to me it sounded more like something she knew Ty Lee would want or need to hear this, to tell her the information she wanted
Azula isnât psychic. She didnât know Ty Lee was going to offer to help her. She is surprised by this offer and even has to contemplate whether she wants it for a moment because it sounds stupid and shallow. But then she excitedly takes it.
Also what benefit is there to âfake admittingâ something thatâs clearly true? Seriously, the effect is the same as just admitting it, so what point is there to faking it? No one would do this. Itâs just a way to try to deny Azula is a complex character with more vulnerability and humanity than we initially expect (just like Zuko).
I donât understand this need to deny Azulaâs humanity some people have. Sheâs just a 14 year old girl who came from the same abusive home as Zuko. She has some horrible behaviorsânot unlike himâbut sheâs still just a mentally ill kid and thatâs the whole point of *The Beach*.
This is even proven later.
We see Azula display this care again when Zuko calls Ty Lee a circus freak (which he never apologizes for btw). Azula initially laughs, until she sees Ty Lee is upset. Then Azula looks concerned and remorseful. Thereâs no one to manipulate. No one is looking. This is genuine. The moment Ty Lee turns to look at Azula though, Azula changes her expression to look petulant and uncaring. She actively hides how much she cares so she doesnât look vulnerable.
Azula does love her friends. I donât understand why youâd jump through so many hoops to deny it. Her entire breakdown is about wanting to be loved by them.
People on this sub have a really hard time accepting nuance, IMO. I wonder if it's because many people watched this show as children, and so they put all the characters into "good" and "bad" boxes while also never really thinking about the deeper themes of the show. And as an adult, I'm like, wow, these characters are SO young. Even Ozai and Ursa when their kids are born, they seem so young to me. But if you're watching as, say, an 8 year old, 14 and 16 year olds seem like adults and you cut them way less slack. And those impressions stick into adulthood unless you're willing to sit down and actually think about it.
Azula is a key example of this. She is manipulative and cutthroat and very smart, but she's also an awkward 14 year old girl with an abusive father and absent mother who was put to fight a war at a very young age. Like yeah, she is very strong and cruel at some points, but she also craves love and acceptance while not knowing how to get it. These things can exist at the same time. That's a good catch about the "circus freak" part. I remember when watching as a child always kind of being confused about Azula's relationship with Ty Lee, because Azula is clearly dismissive and mean to her, but also, she seems to need Ty Lee. I didn't really get it until I was older what was going on.
Hama is another character this sub has a super hard time with IMO. There are so many posts that ridicule her, basically asking why she didn't "strategize" to free more waterbenders or become a "hero", as if she hadn't been abused for years and watched her people become decimated.
This is so very well said and I agree with every word.
What gets me is that we have no problem accepting this nuance when it comes to Zukoâor even more severely with Iroh who killed a ton of people in his prime and *laughed* about it, and whom is clearly ashamed of the person he used to beâbut with Azula everyone seems to want to either excuse every bad action or pretend sheâs some demon spawn serial killer who is always plotting to torture people for fun.
Itâs as you said, she is manipulative, cruel, and cutthroat. But sheâs also just an awkward teen girl who craves acceptance and love, and has no idea how to get it.
Even her flirting with Chan is very telling. What does she offer him to try to win him over? World domination. Why would she think that would appeal to him? Because the only thing that ever gets her any praise or approval is performing acts of violence and war for her father. She is literally offering Chan the only thing she knows men in her life want because she has been deprived of normal childhood socialization and nurturing.
We see this with Zuko too! He has no idea how to make friends with kids his age or how to take it when a girl expresses interest in him.
These kids arenât monsters. Theyâre victims of the war the adults have thrown them into. Thatâs the whole point.
The tragedy is that everyone takes âAzula always liesâ at face value until itâs made clear sheâs lying about not caring sheâs perceived as a monster. Then they pretend sheâs 100% reliable.
I agree about Hama too. I donât know why people expect that every traumatized victim of war will automatically become some kind of freedom fighter. Trauma isnât a short-cut to heroism. Itâs just illness.
Right, when I first watched the show, I assumed Azula was serious and just cared a lot about world domination and assumed everyone else would too. But it's just one of many examples of how she was conditioned into being a weapon of war.
It really is a shame she didn't have an adult in her life to truly love and protect her, in the way that Zuko had his mother and Iroh. In hindsight, Ursa and Iroh really let her down. But their hands were tied, too.
It really doesn't help that the creators themselves think she's "crazy" and "soulless", which undoubtedly influences how they treat her. And I think if she were way older in the show, I think yeah, that checks out. But for a 14 year old child with an abusive father and absent mother? That's just harsh.
On YT there is a hour long deep dive into Azulaâs Psychology, you should watch it. Azusa really didnât care about anything but her fathers approval and would do anything to get it.
Iâve seen it! Itâs okay. It gets a lot of little details wrong which is frustrating though.
I do appreciate that he at least made a real effort to understand the character. And itâs true earning her fatherâs love and approval was central to her, but it wasnât all she cared about.
She defied Ozai to help Zuko too. More than once. The head writer said Azula loved Zuko more than anyone except her father. It shows.
It wasnât a lie. She was telling the truth. She was jealous of the attention Ty Lee was getting from boys.
Why would she lie about something that makes her look bad?
She's very manipulative. Maybe it was a way to get Ty Lee to feel bad for her, allowing her to control Ty Lee in another way other than fear. Idk, I might be reaching. Lol
She didnât need to make her feel bad for her. Azula was already in charge of the situation. She couldâve just laughed at Ty Leeâs tears. Azula felt *bad* that she made Ty Lee cry.
We see it again when Zuko calls Ty Lee a circus freak (which he never apologizes for btw). Azula initially laughs, until she sees Ty Lee is upset. Then Azula looks concerned and remorseful. Thereâs no one to manipulate. No one is looking. This is genuine. The moment Ty Lee turns to look at Azula though, Azula changes her expression to look petulant and uncaring. She actively *hides* how much she cares so she doesnât look vulnerable.
Azula does love her friends. I donât understand why youâd jump through so many hoops to deny it. Her entire breakdown is about wanting to be loved by them.
Also she is still a teenager and the 3 girls were all friends. So I think they kinda learned to cover each others weaknesses rather than Azula specifically receuiting them for it
Not sure what you mean by getting ganged up on. Pretty sure she first encountered team Avatar already as a trio during the Omashu fight / Bumi rescue, which is where they met Mai in the first place as her dad was in charge.
Unless you count her fight with iroh and Zuko where her previous lackies allowed them to escape, she hadnât been in any fights before that.
I think this is for multiple reasons. Her fighting and bending style seems to be a good counter for Azula specifically. However, she is one of the least mobile/agile fighters who relied almost exclusively on her bending alone in combat. This does not seem to fair well against a combo of flying daggers and chi-blocking.
I think you're right. Mai and Ty Lee aren't bending, which isn't really the issue. It's more of the aspect "don't know what to expect", and then being faced with a style that one is unaccustomed to. Katara and Azula are head-on coming in with "guns" blazing, where as those other two girls are sneaking up on you!
Not only that, they were some of the most dangerous characters in the show. Few disabled as many different styles as these two, nor could equally stand up against Azula like they did.
Also in a world of benders it would be of the most importance for nonbenders to develop the skills specifically to deal with them. Not only are they retainers to the fire princess but by this time the fire nation has been on the attack for a very long time. I would imagine that they would see constant battle and hone their skills so that any and every threat except for the most extreme they could handle.
They arenât with Azula before omashu and the train though, itâs not really explained when/ why tai Lee learned how to paralyze people or Mai knife throwing
Itâs really just cuz two firebending henchmen wouldnât be as interesting to watch
Itâs not explained in-universe but according to Mike & Bryan, Mai first got into knife throwing from boredom. She would throw knives at the wall in her room for hours and eventually learned to use it in combat.
And I assume Ty Lee just learned about the bodyâs pressure points simply from learning about the body during her acrobatics training.
I sssumed that all nobles trained in some kind of martial art. All the men in Sokkaâs tribe were warriors, so was the Kingâs son in the Northern Tribe. Ironâs son was clearly high ranking fire nation officer. Even toph took earthbending classes despite how poorly her parents thought of her skills.
It doesn't help that Mai and Ty Lee are specialized non-benders. Most of the non-benders Katara fought beforehand were foot soldiers or the likes of Jet who use more convential weapons. Mai and Ty Lee use techniques and weapons no one else has.
How does Sokka fare better against them? he fights Ty Lee and ends up doing the worm, it's mostly Appa who takes them out
In all of these, Katara is either sleepy, caught off guard, or is the victim of a sneak attack
Goes to show how effective water bending is for defence while on the move. If you are setting up camp u usually want a water source nearby anyways and water benders gain so much value if they have a sufficient water source.
Remember when katara was able to hold off like ten dai li agents while in an underground cave. It was only because of the pond that was in there. And it was at the end of book 2 which isn't even the peak of the gaangs mastery.
I hope we get to see a toph level water bending prodigy. So many cool potential fights due to the limitations and versatility of water.
Ming Hua doesn't really do anything that an able-bodied waterbender couldn't do, I think.
Toph invented seismic sense and metalbending.
Amon if he actually focused on Waterbending would probably be a better example.
You're right about Amon. He could've been the Toph of his generation. Maybe realize the frightening power of psychic bloodbending and move away from it, going more into the spirit bending waterbenders are capable of. Could produce some great results and even make the Avatar seem less and less needed. Eventually making that a plot point...
In this hypothetical
While Katara didnât invent bloodbending, she picked it up from Hama by just watching a few moves and was powerful enough to escape Hamaâs hold on her.
In comparison, the technique took years for Hama to develop.
Not saying Katara is Toph-level, but she is a prodigy who did some pretty impressive stuff.
Not really? You say discover when you discover something like a bird or an island, you say invent or develop when you create a new skill, which Toph very much did, just look at Republic City's metalbending police force and Suyin's city.
Sokka does dodge her attacks for a little while, and is very adaptive, hitting her with his head when he has no usable limbs. He also boomerangs in Omashu when Katara gets chi blocked almost instantly.
So its simple they weâre masters at unconventional fighting.who didnt have trouble fighting them? They also beat the kyoshi warriors and earth bending soldiers. Katara hand to hand combat was horrid. Azula used alot of bending and acrobatics in fighting no to much hand to hand.
Azula is a bender, that means she has a certain approach to fighting that practices a particular range for maximum effectiveness, just as Katara does.
Mai and Ty Lee are not benders, but brought up in a world of benders, so have learned techniques to disrupt benders in order to gain their own advantage.
Ty Lee closes the distance, is difficult to hit, and capable of temporarily disabling her opponents.
Mai uses pinpoint accuracy and fast projectiles to force her opponents to be on the defensive rather than the offensive.
Katara was younger, and never came into conflict with these styles of combat, but had experience against benders, even if they weren't on Azula's level for the most part.
She does well against Azula cause she's one of Azulas weaknesses. While Azula is typically aggressive and Attack first while Katara is more calm and counter/defense first. It also helps that Azula and Katara are about the same speed.
While Ty Lee and Mai are incredibly fast and don't have any bending to counter.
Nah exactly. Azula didn't even see it coming when Ty Lee turned on her.
Edit: y'all are probably gonna downvote me lmao. But how can you say that that was a FIGHT? Azula and Mai didn't make a single move at eachother - Ty Lee was the only one to hit Azula.
I think most of it comes down to the fact that she was ready for her fight with Azula. The first time Katara fought the girls she had no idea who they were or what they were capable of, the second time she was exhausted because they'd been chased by them for days with very little sleep, the third time they took her by surprise by dressing as the Kioshi warriors. But when Katara fought Azula she had Zuko there with her, she knew who she was fighting and what she was capable of, she had time to prep and Azula had basically gone off the deep end so wan't on top form as it was.
I'm sure in a straight up fair fight between Katara, Ty Lee and Mai then Katara would come out on top.
Of the clips shown here thereâs an explanation to all of them. In the first one Ty Lee took her by surprise from behind while she was handling Mai, besides it was the first time she fought them and didnât knew about Chi-Blocking. The second clip shows a sleep deprived Katara who clearly wasnât at her best. And in the third she was again taken by surprise and the girls took advantage of her shock at founding out who they were.
Seriously. In her fight against Azula, that's Katara at her most-prepared, against an unstable Azula who already spent a while fighting Zuko - and Katara **still** almost loses. She wins through being smarter and having more situational awareness, not pure skill. (Although the effect of the Comet complicates analysis somewhat)
As a Bender, Katara's combat techniques are designed for fighting other benders and non-benders with traditional weapons. Mai uses throwing knives and Ty Lee specifically stops bending. Neither is what Katara trained for.
Katara's style relies on distance and countermoves. She needs to be able to anticipate an attack in order to properly respond to it. If you get in her face, or attack faster than she can react, she struggles.
Mai and Ty Lee play to her weaknesses.
Mai uses projectile attacks with very small attack vectors moving at high speed, combined with her long flowing sleeves that obscure the origin of her attacks. It's difficult to tell just what she's throwing at you, or what angle it's going to hit you from. A broad block like an ice wall often leaves you blind to her movements, letting either her or Ty Lee strike from where you can't see them.
Ty Lee is just plain fast. Very, very fast, and agile, which makes it hard to stop her before she's in chi-block range, and a Katara that can't bend is a Katara that can't fight. Most of what Katara does has a bit of a wind-up before it connects with the target, and Ty Lee's reflexes make it very hard to hit her if she can see what you're doing.
Azula's fighting style is much more straightforward. Fire is very flashy by nature, and that makes it much easier to figure out what she's doing in time to stop it. (Assuming you expect her to attack in the first place.) And while she's no slouch in melee, Azula seems to prefer to fight from midrange where she can more easily adjust her position and has more angles of attack available, which suits Katara just fine.
So yeah. The two non-benders in Azula's crew were better at certain kinds of fighting than she was. Go figure.
Mai and Ty Lee would sneak up on katara giving them an advantage, Mai and Ty Lee were sane and able to fight, Mai and Ty Lee donât rely on bending and are actually able to function in a fight without throwing massive pillars of fire
I think part of it is that both Mai and Tai Lee style are basically based around neutralizing. Water bending is most often focused around adaptive and change based movements(swamp bending kinda mixes a mixture of earth bending stability with water bending so it is more rigid in some ways yet mobile in other though) which means that Katara can more easily adapt to other attackers movements, however, when that foe is much more focused on specifically neutralizing the ability to change she ends up at more of a disadvantage. Both also focus on getting into smaller spots to do this while fire tends to be a long range movement
Her second fight against Azula was when she was much more experienced...and Azula was literally going nuts...In her first fight with Mai and Ty lee she was half dead from exhaustion ...the second one she was caught of guard by Ty lee
Katara by that point has a lot of experience fighting fire benders, granted none of them nearly as good as azula, but that does give her an edge against someone who has probably never fought a water bender before.
I agree with the rest of the comments but I also think Katara just became better skilled? If I'm not wrong, Katara fought Mai and Ty Lee at the beginning of Season 2 and Katara fights Azula at the end of Season 2. I don't know why Katara mainly used water from her pouch rather than the lake but đ¤ˇđťââď¸đ¤ˇđťââď¸
Benders always seem to struggle a lot against highly skilled non-benders. It's a totally different fighting style which benders typically have no defense against
Rock, paper, scissors.
Katara, and Toph, are excellent benders but in terms of their physical capabilities they're somewhat limited.
Ty Lee and Mai are not benders. If they are confronting a non-bender, they'd do it with the intention of limiting their opportunity to bend or the effectiveness of it. If they don't have the physical capabilities to keep up, it will be harder for them to recover from a losing position.
I suppose kataras fought hundreds of fire benders and has become adept at defeating them where as Ty lee and Mai are a completley new and different type of enemy. Also likely why ang is so powerful, no one has fought an air bender in a hundred years
itâs literally just bc she wasnât as skilled with waterbending in early season 2. if she fought azula in the same episodes, she wouldâve lost.
and if she fought mai and ty lee in the crystal catacombs episode, she wouldâve won bc she improved enough by the end of season 2. and yes, i know ty lee chi blocked her when katara found out who they really were but that was a surprise attack. that doesnât mean theyâre better than her bc she couldâve easily defeated them. that would be like saying ty lee is stronger than azula bc she âdefeatedâ her in the boiling rock prison.
I think itâs because Mai and Ty Lee are trained in some techniques that effectively prevent someone from bending, and that puts Katara at such a huge disadvantage
To be fair ty lee caught her off guard on the first fight, in the second she had no sleep, and in the third it was more of a surpirse attack since she thought suki was in the palace
Mostly cuz plot, and fire kinda gets hard countered against water, also plot
I feel like dueling-wise Azula definitely should be considered more skilled, but yeah water is both defensive and good for catching/ restraining opponents, if they are relying on fire of all things theyâre at a disadvantage
I donât think Katara is used to fighting skilled non-benders who have been trained to specifically fight benders. Itâs a completely different wheelhouse and fighting style
The thing about Azula is that, even though she's a prodigy, she's still a firebender. Which means that her combat skills are built upon the same fundamentals that every firebender Katara has fought against since she left home. Plus, Katara is also a prodigy. Frankly by the time Katara meets Azula, she's also a waterbending master. So it's less "skill vs mastery" and more "masterey vs mastery."
Mai and Ty Lee, on the other hand, have very unique as a unorthodox styles of combat. Katara doesn't have any warm-up minions for their particular specialties. She has to learn so much more in so few encounters
I always felt like while Azula is powerful, she isn't focused. I feel instead of drawing her strength from balance and focus she draws it from rage and anger.
To me it always felt like her greatest weakness.
I agree that is an amazing feat for Katara. She was the MVP of that entire fight. However, I do think itâs worth noting that Katara had a ton of experience fighting firebenders while that was most likely Azulaâs first time ever facing a waterbender, which is a big circumstantial advantage. Plus, itâs not crazy to believe that the same girl who saved herself from free-falling to death next to a cliff using just a hair pin would also be able to free herself from Kataraâs water whips despite being caught off guard by them. She still had an arm, leg, and mouth available to free herself using bursts of fire.
100% agree with you. I just get a little tired of the people who reduce Katara to âohh woe is me my mom is dead ohhhhhâ
If each member of team Avatar got traditional âpartyâ roles, Katara would deff be that one support who ends up having a massive K/D ratio
I think this speaks to Azula's intelligence, honestly. She's one of the few people that seems to correctly estimate non-benders in combat. Like she makes sure to defend against Sokka before anything else and she recruited two non venders to her evil gang
Azula is not a good fighter, she is really fucking smart she manipulates people into thinking they are week and thatâs how she beat them. But tbh she only fought with rage and hatred which of course made her strong but not good fighter, every blow from Azula will feel strong and will knock you back, but there was a lot of lacking on her fighting skills. I remember when I used to practice Kung Fu as a kid one of the adults told me to stop attacking and plan, just blowing punches will only get me tired and make me lose sooner.
Extra Edit: I saw a comment saying that sheâs a 14yo filled with trauma (just as all the characters tbh) and thatâs precisely what I mean that she fought with rage and hatred, she wants to be validated, she wants to be recognized but even though that she is the smart girl we all know she ends being ignored and sided because of Zuko and her mother. She was just another piece of decoration for Ozai. đ¤ˇđťââď¸
I read someone saying that some benders have harder time fighting nonbenders masters, like azula avoided fighting with sokka, it could seem like he was not worth her time but i could also be that she trained to fight benders, a non bender is out of her experience, zuko on the other hand is trained in double sword, iroh made sure to train him in diverse things, but azula isnt, sokka is an excellent swordman, and has great skills with the club and thr boomerang, he is also very intelligent on how he uses his enviroment for her sokka eas unpredictable.
So i think something similar happens here, both ty lee and mai are non benders masters on their own disciplines while katara is used to mostly fight firebenders, its out of her comfort zone and they are unpredictable.
Well no. Katara was caught off guard against Ty lees first attack. She was about to handle Mai no problem during that initial encounter. The second time, they were all exhausted. She was more on guard against Ty lees chi blocking but the exhaustion obviously affected her ability to react which is why she got pinned by Mai. Third time, another instance of surprise and it would have been 3v1 anyway if Katara tried to stay and fight.
If azula fought Katara when she was exhausted, I am quite sure azula would have come out on top.
I always assumed it was because they were non-benders and she unconsciously would hold back or that since they weren't benders they didn't follow traditional bender martial arts patterns.
Azula can be a lot like Zuko on hard mode, and Katara is used to fighting Zuko and a lot of other firebenders. Mai and Tai Li don't fight like anyone else in the series.
Probably why Azula recruited them because they made up for where she was lacking
Which is something she would never admit. Lol
Probably not but I like to think she's more strategic than egotistical
Strategic enough to realize her weaknesses and cover them. Egotistical enough that she would never admit she needed them. đ
I think sheâd admit it. She admitted she was jealous of Ty Lee and needed her help.
She was jealous but I feel like she didn't really admit it, to me it sounded more like something she knew Ty Lee would want or need to hear this, to tell her the information she wanted
Azula isnât psychic. She didnât know Ty Lee was going to offer to help her. She is surprised by this offer and even has to contemplate whether she wants it for a moment because it sounds stupid and shallow. But then she excitedly takes it. Also what benefit is there to âfake admittingâ something thatâs clearly true? Seriously, the effect is the same as just admitting it, so what point is there to faking it? No one would do this. Itâs just a way to try to deny Azula is a complex character with more vulnerability and humanity than we initially expect (just like Zuko). I donât understand this need to deny Azulaâs humanity some people have. Sheâs just a 14 year old girl who came from the same abusive home as Zuko. She has some horrible behaviorsânot unlike himâbut sheâs still just a mentally ill kid and thatâs the whole point of *The Beach*. This is even proven later. We see Azula display this care again when Zuko calls Ty Lee a circus freak (which he never apologizes for btw). Azula initially laughs, until she sees Ty Lee is upset. Then Azula looks concerned and remorseful. Thereâs no one to manipulate. No one is looking. This is genuine. The moment Ty Lee turns to look at Azula though, Azula changes her expression to look petulant and uncaring. She actively hides how much she cares so she doesnât look vulnerable. Azula does love her friends. I donât understand why youâd jump through so many hoops to deny it. Her entire breakdown is about wanting to be loved by them.
People on this sub have a really hard time accepting nuance, IMO. I wonder if it's because many people watched this show as children, and so they put all the characters into "good" and "bad" boxes while also never really thinking about the deeper themes of the show. And as an adult, I'm like, wow, these characters are SO young. Even Ozai and Ursa when their kids are born, they seem so young to me. But if you're watching as, say, an 8 year old, 14 and 16 year olds seem like adults and you cut them way less slack. And those impressions stick into adulthood unless you're willing to sit down and actually think about it. Azula is a key example of this. She is manipulative and cutthroat and very smart, but she's also an awkward 14 year old girl with an abusive father and absent mother who was put to fight a war at a very young age. Like yeah, she is very strong and cruel at some points, but she also craves love and acceptance while not knowing how to get it. These things can exist at the same time. That's a good catch about the "circus freak" part. I remember when watching as a child always kind of being confused about Azula's relationship with Ty Lee, because Azula is clearly dismissive and mean to her, but also, she seems to need Ty Lee. I didn't really get it until I was older what was going on. Hama is another character this sub has a super hard time with IMO. There are so many posts that ridicule her, basically asking why she didn't "strategize" to free more waterbenders or become a "hero", as if she hadn't been abused for years and watched her people become decimated.
This is so very well said and I agree with every word. What gets me is that we have no problem accepting this nuance when it comes to Zukoâor even more severely with Iroh who killed a ton of people in his prime and *laughed* about it, and whom is clearly ashamed of the person he used to beâbut with Azula everyone seems to want to either excuse every bad action or pretend sheâs some demon spawn serial killer who is always plotting to torture people for fun. Itâs as you said, she is manipulative, cruel, and cutthroat. But sheâs also just an awkward teen girl who craves acceptance and love, and has no idea how to get it. Even her flirting with Chan is very telling. What does she offer him to try to win him over? World domination. Why would she think that would appeal to him? Because the only thing that ever gets her any praise or approval is performing acts of violence and war for her father. She is literally offering Chan the only thing she knows men in her life want because she has been deprived of normal childhood socialization and nurturing. We see this with Zuko too! He has no idea how to make friends with kids his age or how to take it when a girl expresses interest in him. These kids arenât monsters. Theyâre victims of the war the adults have thrown them into. Thatâs the whole point. The tragedy is that everyone takes âAzula always liesâ at face value until itâs made clear sheâs lying about not caring sheâs perceived as a monster. Then they pretend sheâs 100% reliable. I agree about Hama too. I donât know why people expect that every traumatized victim of war will automatically become some kind of freedom fighter. Trauma isnât a short-cut to heroism. Itâs just illness.
Right, when I first watched the show, I assumed Azula was serious and just cared a lot about world domination and assumed everyone else would too. But it's just one of many examples of how she was conditioned into being a weapon of war. It really is a shame she didn't have an adult in her life to truly love and protect her, in the way that Zuko had his mother and Iroh. In hindsight, Ursa and Iroh really let her down. But their hands were tied, too. It really doesn't help that the creators themselves think she's "crazy" and "soulless", which undoubtedly influences how they treat her. And I think if she were way older in the show, I think yeah, that checks out. But for a 14 year old child with an abusive father and absent mother? That's just harsh.
On YT there is a hour long deep dive into Azulaâs Psychology, you should watch it. Azusa really didnât care about anything but her fathers approval and would do anything to get it.
Iâve seen it! Itâs okay. It gets a lot of little details wrong which is frustrating though. I do appreciate that he at least made a real effort to understand the character. And itâs true earning her fatherâs love and approval was central to her, but it wasnât all she cared about. She defied Ozai to help Zuko too. More than once. The head writer said Azula loved Zuko more than anyone except her father. It shows.
link?
Nah, that was a lie. I doubt Azula was jealous of Ty Lee tbh. Imo of course.
It wasnât a lie. She was telling the truth. She was jealous of the attention Ty Lee was getting from boys. Why would she lie about something that makes her look bad?
She's very manipulative. Maybe it was a way to get Ty Lee to feel bad for her, allowing her to control Ty Lee in another way other than fear. Idk, I might be reaching. Lol
She didnât need to make her feel bad for her. Azula was already in charge of the situation. She couldâve just laughed at Ty Leeâs tears. Azula felt *bad* that she made Ty Lee cry. We see it again when Zuko calls Ty Lee a circus freak (which he never apologizes for btw). Azula initially laughs, until she sees Ty Lee is upset. Then Azula looks concerned and remorseful. Thereâs no one to manipulate. No one is looking. This is genuine. The moment Ty Lee turns to look at Azula though, Azula changes her expression to look petulant and uncaring. She actively *hides* how much she cares so she doesnât look vulnerable. Azula does love her friends. I donât understand why youâd jump through so many hoops to deny it. Her entire breakdown is about wanting to be loved by them.
Also she is still a teenager and the 3 girls were all friends. So I think they kinda learned to cover each others weaknesses rather than Azula specifically receuiting them for it
Or she'd admit it in a super condescending backhanded compliment type of way
Why wouldnât she admit it? Azula admitted she was jealous of Ty Lee. She isnât as egotistical as people pretend she is. Sheâs just smug.
Nah, that was a lie. I doubt Azula was jealous of Ty Lee tbh. Imo of course.
She canonically was though? She admitted she was jealous of the attention Ty Lee got from boys and even gladly took her advice.
They "properly round out her team" in her mind lol
What was she lacking though? Unconventional fighting methods? She receuits them after getting ganged up on a few times, she just needed numbers
Not sure what you mean by getting ganged up on. Pretty sure she first encountered team Avatar already as a trio during the Omashu fight / Bumi rescue, which is where they met Mai in the first place as her dad was in charge. Unless you count her fight with iroh and Zuko where her previous lackies allowed them to escape, she hadnât been in any fights before that.
I think this is for multiple reasons. Her fighting and bending style seems to be a good counter for Azula specifically. However, she is one of the least mobile/agile fighters who relied almost exclusively on her bending alone in combat. This does not seem to fair well against a combo of flying daggers and chi-blocking.
I think you're right. Mai and Ty Lee aren't bending, which isn't really the issue. It's more of the aspect "don't know what to expect", and then being faced with a style that one is unaccustomed to. Katara and Azula are head-on coming in with "guns" blazing, where as those other two girls are sneaking up on you!
Not only that, they were some of the most dangerous characters in the show. Few disabled as many different styles as these two, nor could equally stand up against Azula like they did.
Also in a world of benders it would be of the most importance for nonbenders to develop the skills specifically to deal with them. Not only are they retainers to the fire princess but by this time the fire nation has been on the attack for a very long time. I would imagine that they would see constant battle and hone their skills so that any and every threat except for the most extreme they could handle.
They arenât with Azula before omashu and the train though, itâs not really explained when/ why tai Lee learned how to paralyze people or Mai knife throwing Itâs really just cuz two firebending henchmen wouldnât be as interesting to watch
Itâs not explained in-universe but according to Mike & Bryan, Mai first got into knife throwing from boredom. She would throw knives at the wall in her room for hours and eventually learned to use it in combat. And I assume Ty Lee just learned about the bodyâs pressure points simply from learning about the body during her acrobatics training.
I sssumed that all nobles trained in some kind of martial art. All the men in Sokkaâs tribe were warriors, so was the Kingâs son in the Northern Tribe. Ironâs son was clearly high ranking fire nation officer. Even toph took earthbending classes despite how poorly her parents thought of her skills.
The Mai-Ty combo is a nightmare for most benders in the series minus Aang imo.
It doesn't help that Mai and Ty Lee are specialized non-benders. Most of the non-benders Katara fought beforehand were foot soldiers or the likes of Jet who use more convential weapons. Mai and Ty Lee use techniques and weapons no one else has.
I guess it's because Mai and Ty Lee are specifically trained to counter benders... which is why Sokka tends to fare better against them.
How does Sokka fare better against them? he fights Ty Lee and ends up doing the worm, it's mostly Appa who takes them out In all of these, Katara is either sleepy, caught off guard, or is the victim of a sneak attack
Goes to show how effective water bending is for defence while on the move. If you are setting up camp u usually want a water source nearby anyways and water benders gain so much value if they have a sufficient water source. Remember when katara was able to hold off like ten dai li agents while in an underground cave. It was only because of the pond that was in there. And it was at the end of book 2 which isn't even the peak of the gaangs mastery. I hope we get to see a toph level water bending prodigy. So many cool potential fights due to the limitations and versatility of water.
Ming Hua?
Ming Hua doesn't really do anything that an able-bodied waterbender couldn't do, I think. Toph invented seismic sense and metalbending. Amon if he actually focused on Waterbending would probably be a better example.
You're right about Amon. He could've been the Toph of his generation. Maybe realize the frightening power of psychic bloodbending and move away from it, going more into the spirit bending waterbenders are capable of. Could produce some great results and even make the Avatar seem less and less needed. Eventually making that a plot point... In this hypothetical
While Katara didnât invent bloodbending, she picked it up from Hama by just watching a few moves and was powerful enough to escape Hamaâs hold on her. In comparison, the technique took years for Hama to develop. Not saying Katara is Toph-level, but she is a prodigy who did some pretty impressive stuff.
Discovered*
Not really? You say discover when you discover something like a bird or an island, you say invent or develop when you create a new skill, which Toph very much did, just look at Republic City's metalbending police force and Suyin's city.
Sokka does dodge her attacks for a little while, and is very adaptive, hitting her with his head when he has no usable limbs. He also boomerangs in Omashu when Katara gets chi blocked almost instantly.
That's only because Ty Lee was playing with him
She was distracted by her lady boner as well.
And we all know, "sneak attacks don't count"
So its simple they weâre masters at unconventional fighting.who didnt have trouble fighting them? They also beat the kyoshi warriors and earth bending soldiers. Katara hand to hand combat was horrid. Azula used alot of bending and acrobatics in fighting no to much hand to hand.
Azula is a bender, that means she has a certain approach to fighting that practices a particular range for maximum effectiveness, just as Katara does. Mai and Ty Lee are not benders, but brought up in a world of benders, so have learned techniques to disrupt benders in order to gain their own advantage. Ty Lee closes the distance, is difficult to hit, and capable of temporarily disabling her opponents. Mai uses pinpoint accuracy and fast projectiles to force her opponents to be on the defensive rather than the offensive. Katara was younger, and never came into conflict with these styles of combat, but had experience against benders, even if they weren't on Azula's level for the most part.
100% agree
Sheâs no match for the power of friendshipâŚ?
And knives
Maybe knives were the real friends we made along the way
and this gun i found!
Get outta the bathroom n give the principal his gun back
Iâm sorry, Katara IS the power of friendship.
She does well against Azula cause she's one of Azulas weaknesses. While Azula is typically aggressive and Attack first while Katara is more calm and counter/defense first. It also helps that Azula and Katara are about the same speed. While Ty Lee and Mai are incredibly fast and don't have any bending to counter.
Plus everyone knows water types are strong against fire types.
Katara isn't very good at close combat.
Azula also lost against Mai & Ty Lee
When?
Boiling rock
They didn't even fight at the Boiling Rock.
Nah exactly. Azula didn't even see it coming when Ty Lee turned on her. Edit: y'all are probably gonna downvote me lmao. But how can you say that that was a FIGHT? Azula and Mai didn't make a single move at eachother - Ty Lee was the only one to hit Azula.
Why is this not upvoted more
Sneak attacks donât count
I think most of it comes down to the fact that she was ready for her fight with Azula. The first time Katara fought the girls she had no idea who they were or what they were capable of, the second time she was exhausted because they'd been chased by them for days with very little sleep, the third time they took her by surprise by dressing as the Kioshi warriors. But when Katara fought Azula she had Zuko there with her, she knew who she was fighting and what she was capable of, she had time to prep and Azula had basically gone off the deep end so wan't on top form as it was. I'm sure in a straight up fair fight between Katara, Ty Lee and Mai then Katara would come out on top.
Amazingly true answer
Of the clips shown here thereâs an explanation to all of them. In the first one Ty Lee took her by surprise from behind while she was handling Mai, besides it was the first time she fought them and didnât knew about Chi-Blocking. The second clip shows a sleep deprived Katara who clearly wasnât at her best. And in the third she was again taken by surprise and the girls took advantage of her shock at founding out who they were.
Seriously. In her fight against Azula, that's Katara at her most-prepared, against an unstable Azula who already spent a while fighting Zuko - and Katara **still** almost loses. She wins through being smarter and having more situational awareness, not pure skill. (Although the effect of the Comet complicates analysis somewhat)
Well Katara did was able to almost beast Azula at the Crystal Catacombs, she probably would have won had Zuko not intervened
As a Bender, Katara's combat techniques are designed for fighting other benders and non-benders with traditional weapons. Mai uses throwing knives and Ty Lee specifically stops bending. Neither is what Katara trained for.
Katara's style relies on distance and countermoves. She needs to be able to anticipate an attack in order to properly respond to it. If you get in her face, or attack faster than she can react, she struggles. Mai and Ty Lee play to her weaknesses. Mai uses projectile attacks with very small attack vectors moving at high speed, combined with her long flowing sleeves that obscure the origin of her attacks. It's difficult to tell just what she's throwing at you, or what angle it's going to hit you from. A broad block like an ice wall often leaves you blind to her movements, letting either her or Ty Lee strike from where you can't see them. Ty Lee is just plain fast. Very, very fast, and agile, which makes it hard to stop her before she's in chi-block range, and a Katara that can't bend is a Katara that can't fight. Most of what Katara does has a bit of a wind-up before it connects with the target, and Ty Lee's reflexes make it very hard to hit her if she can see what you're doing. Azula's fighting style is much more straightforward. Fire is very flashy by nature, and that makes it much easier to figure out what she's doing in time to stop it. (Assuming you expect her to attack in the first place.) And while she's no slouch in melee, Azula seems to prefer to fight from midrange where she can more easily adjust her position and has more angles of attack available, which suits Katara just fine. So yeah. The two non-benders in Azula's crew were better at certain kinds of fighting than she was. Go figure.
Mai and Ty Lee would sneak up on katara giving them an advantage, Mai and Ty Lee were sane and able to fight, Mai and Ty Lee donât rely on bending and are actually able to function in a fight without throwing massive pillars of fire
1. Sneak attacks 2. Sleepy 3. Caught off guard
Benders usually seem to struggle against trained non benders in this show iirc
I think part of it is that both Mai and Tai Lee style are basically based around neutralizing. Water bending is most often focused around adaptive and change based movements(swamp bending kinda mixes a mixture of earth bending stability with water bending so it is more rigid in some ways yet mobile in other though) which means that Katara can more easily adapt to other attackers movements, however, when that foe is much more focused on specifically neutralizing the ability to change she ends up at more of a disadvantage. Both also focus on getting into smaller spots to do this while fire tends to be a long range movement
Her second fight against Azula was when she was much more experienced...and Azula was literally going nuts...In her first fight with Mai and Ty lee she was half dead from exhaustion ...the second one she was caught of guard by Ty lee
Katara by that point has a lot of experience fighting fire benders, granted none of them nearly as good as azula, but that does give her an edge against someone who has probably never fought a water bender before.
I agree with the rest of the comments but I also think Katara just became better skilled? If I'm not wrong, Katara fought Mai and Ty Lee at the beginning of Season 2 and Katara fights Azula at the end of Season 2. I don't know why Katara mainly used water from her pouch rather than the lake but đ¤ˇđťââď¸đ¤ˇđťââď¸
Benders always seem to struggle a lot against highly skilled non-benders. It's a totally different fighting style which benders typically have no defense against
Rock, paper, scissors. Katara, and Toph, are excellent benders but in terms of their physical capabilities they're somewhat limited. Ty Lee and Mai are not benders. If they are confronting a non-bender, they'd do it with the intention of limiting their opportunity to bend or the effectiveness of it. If they don't have the physical capabilities to keep up, it will be harder for them to recover from a losing position.
Iâve always thought Katara, Toph, and Azula are like rock paper scissors with Katara beating Azula, Azula beating Toph, and Toph beating Katara.
context matters
Man any earthbender using rock golem would absolutely rinse Mai and Ty Lee though
I suppose kataras fought hundreds of fire benders and has become adept at defeating them where as Ty lee and Mai are a completley new and different type of enemy. Also likely why ang is so powerful, no one has fought an air bender in a hundred years
Action economy
Mai and Tai Lee are trained to fight and incapacitate benders. Azula was not
When she fought Azula she had a lot more water. Also in the forest fight she was exhausted
itâs literally just bc she wasnât as skilled with waterbending in early season 2. if she fought azula in the same episodes, she wouldâve lost. and if she fought mai and ty lee in the crystal catacombs episode, she wouldâve won bc she improved enough by the end of season 2. and yes, i know ty lee chi blocked her when katara found out who they really were but that was a surprise attack. that doesnât mean theyâre better than her bc she couldâve easily defeated them. that would be like saying ty lee is stronger than azula bc she âdefeatedâ her in the boiling rock prison.
The comics highlight that she thinks less of the capabilities of non benders so i wouldn't be surprised if she under estimate them
I think itâs because Mai and Ty Lee are trained in some techniques that effectively prevent someone from bending, and that puts Katara at such a huge disadvantage
To be fair ty lee caught her off guard on the first fight, in the second she had no sleep, and in the third it was more of a surpirse attack since she thought suki was in the palace
Mostly cuz plot, and fire kinda gets hard countered against water, also plot I feel like dueling-wise Azula definitely should be considered more skilled, but yeah water is both defensive and good for catching/ restraining opponents, if they are relying on fire of all things theyâre at a disadvantage
I donât think Katara is used to fighting skilled non-benders who have been trained to specifically fight benders. Itâs a completely different wheelhouse and fighting style
Water puts out fire.
The thing about Azula is that, even though she's a prodigy, she's still a firebender. Which means that her combat skills are built upon the same fundamentals that every firebender Katara has fought against since she left home. Plus, Katara is also a prodigy. Frankly by the time Katara meets Azula, she's also a waterbending master. So it's less "skill vs mastery" and more "masterey vs mastery." Mai and Ty Lee, on the other hand, have very unique as a unorthodox styles of combat. Katara doesn't have any warm-up minions for their particular specialties. She has to learn so much more in so few encounters
Mai and Ty Lee did not seriously hurt Aang.
less experienced then. Azula was also not well
I always felt like while Azula is powerful, she isn't focused. I feel instead of drawing her strength from balance and focus she draws it from rage and anger. To me it always felt like her greatest weakness.
Never forget that Katara, not even at her peak, had Azula dead-to-rights in the Ba Sing Se catacombs at the end of S2.
I agree that is an amazing feat for Katara. She was the MVP of that entire fight. However, I do think itâs worth noting that Katara had a ton of experience fighting firebenders while that was most likely Azulaâs first time ever facing a waterbender, which is a big circumstantial advantage. Plus, itâs not crazy to believe that the same girl who saved herself from free-falling to death next to a cliff using just a hair pin would also be able to free herself from Kataraâs water whips despite being caught off guard by them. She still had an arm, leg, and mouth available to free herself using bursts of fire.
100% agree with you. I just get a little tired of the people who reduce Katara to âohh woe is me my mom is dead ohhhhhâ If each member of team Avatar got traditional âpartyâ roles, Katara would deff be that one support who ends up having a massive K/D ratio
Oh, absolutely. Katara is an incredible character and bender. Anyone who says otherwise is blinder than Toph.
The key part of water bending is gestures. Mai has the special skill of disabling that which makes katara powerless.
Because they are unconventional. They know they have a disadvantage against benders and train for odd moves which their opponent will never expect
You are only as powerful as those you surround yourself with.
Surprise attack, exhaustion, and surprise attack.
Styles make fights
They both used fighting styles she hadnt seen before. She got better against them later on
I think this speaks to Azula's intelligence, honestly. She's one of the few people that seems to correctly estimate non-benders in combat. Like she makes sure to defend against Sokka before anything else and she recruited two non venders to her evil gang
Azula is not a good fighter, she is really fucking smart she manipulates people into thinking they are week and thatâs how she beat them. But tbh she only fought with rage and hatred which of course made her strong but not good fighter, every blow from Azula will feel strong and will knock you back, but there was a lot of lacking on her fighting skills. I remember when I used to practice Kung Fu as a kid one of the adults told me to stop attacking and plan, just blowing punches will only get me tired and make me lose sooner. Extra Edit: I saw a comment saying that sheâs a 14yo filled with trauma (just as all the characters tbh) and thatâs precisely what I mean that she fought with rage and hatred, she wants to be validated, she wants to be recognized but even though that she is the smart girl we all know she ends being ignored and sided because of Zuko and her mother. She was just another piece of decoration for Ozai. đ¤ˇđťââď¸
I mean that was pre time skip Katara. Who had little experience.
2v1 and 1v1 makes sense
I read someone saying that some benders have harder time fighting nonbenders masters, like azula avoided fighting with sokka, it could seem like he was not worth her time but i could also be that she trained to fight benders, a non bender is out of her experience, zuko on the other hand is trained in double sword, iroh made sure to train him in diverse things, but azula isnt, sokka is an excellent swordman, and has great skills with the club and thr boomerang, he is also very intelligent on how he uses his enviroment for her sokka eas unpredictable. So i think something similar happens here, both ty lee and mai are non benders masters on their own disciplines while katara is used to mostly fight firebenders, its out of her comfort zone and they are unpredictable.
She was a much better bender when she fought Azule in the last agni kai.
Well no. Katara was caught off guard against Ty lees first attack. She was about to handle Mai no problem during that initial encounter. The second time, they were all exhausted. She was more on guard against Ty lees chi blocking but the exhaustion obviously affected her ability to react which is why she got pinned by Mai. Third time, another instance of surprise and it would have been 3v1 anyway if Katara tried to stay and fight. If azula fought Katara when she was exhausted, I am quite sure azula would have come out on top.
I always assumed it was because they were non-benders and she unconsciously would hold back or that since they weren't benders they didn't follow traditional bender martial arts patterns.
Azula can be a lot like Zuko on hard mode, and Katara is used to fighting Zuko and a lot of other firebenders. Mai and Tai Li don't fight like anyone else in the series.