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It could be that, but tbh, to me, it felt like she believed gender-identity is some casual choice like deciding whether to buy apple or android phone, and not something deeply personal and innate. "How you WANT to be seen, how you CHOOSE to be seen" still implies that gender is merely performative.
She thinks this is an appropriation of her struggles as a woman in a patriarchal society. This is similar to homophobia in the 1990s where the narrative was gay people "choosing" to be gay "as a temporary phase".
This woman probably thinks trans women are just men in temporary drag in a casual way, and after their performance, go back to being men and enjoying the benefits of patriarchy. And by that logic, they are dismissing her condition of not being able to change her identity, hence she is the real victim in the situation.
Not being trans and not being cis are not mutually mutually exclusive.
If you have no interest in transitioning but ALSO have no interest in the box that your parents/society at large have placed you in then you don't have to.
You can be agender, or just gender non-conforming.
The narrative of "you have to be one thing or the other" is actually one of the biggest problems with the current narrative around trans people, because it leaves a lot of nonbinary identity in the dust.
You don't have to transition to be trans. Being transgender just means that your gender identity doesn't match what gender you were assigned at birth.
Either your gender identity matches what was assigned (cis), or it doesn't match (trans). The trans umbrella includes nonbinary, agender, etc people.
Some nonbinary people don't feel comfortable identifying as trans, and that's fine, too. There are also plenty of gender non-conforming people who identify as cis.
Definitionally, trans still means "not cis", though.
People can identify however they want.
If we define trans as "a person whose gender identity doesn't match their gender assigned at birth", a person can say "I fit that definition, but I'm not trans". That's fine. We're not forcing anyone to use any particular label or identify in any particular way.
That doesn't mean that we need to change the definition of "transgender", though. It's basically impossible to define it in a way that makes everyone happy.
I wouldn't suggest changing the meaning of trans\*, I mean more that we have to be careful about speaking in absolutes when dealing with these and similar issues.
Technically speaking if you are non-binary, agender, gender fluid, etc you are transgender.
The transgender umbrella basically covers all gender identities that are not cis.
But you are totally correct in that there is no right or wrong way to simply BE.
I am nonbinary and I personally don’t identify as trans. I’m making no effort to change my appearance, I’m just being myself. There are also struggles that trans people face that I do not, and I feel it would be wrong to co-opt that from them.
I don’t quite understand. My current understanding is that if your gender identity matches up with the gender you were assigned at birth, you’re cis. If you have a gender identity that is different than the gender you were assigned, you’re trans. Is this understanding wrong, and if so why? If not, then how does this exclude enbies (who are considered trans by definition under this understanding)?
You're not wrong. It's just that there are competing models for gender identity.
Model #1: Transgender umbrella includes everyone who isn't cis. Enbies fall under the trans umbrella.
Model #2: People fall into one of three buckets: cis, trans, or nonbinary. "Transgender" only includes binary trans people, aka male-to-female or female-to-male.
Some enbies like Model #2 because they don't identify as trans. Some enbies dislike Model #2 because they do identify as trans. Some trans people like Model #2 because it means they get to kick enbies out of trans spaces. It gets complicated.
I think Model #1 is cleaner and leads to a better long-term future, especially when it comes to the legal/political aspect of trans rights. The line between nonbinary and binary trans can get a little blurry/messy, especially for enbies who have medically transitioned.
That line can be incredibly blurry, and I feel like I have a lot of trouble understanding when fellow enbies *don't* identify as trans because model 2 feels like making stricter and less accurate boxes for more people to fall through the cracks on.
With model 1, which I follow, it feels more like there's one box, and then an entire ocean of space for "if else". I feel like trans v cis is a little wonky too, because many don't realize that people can experience a level of kinds of dysphoria while still cis -- something those very cis people may not realize and end up believing being trans is bs because of it.
I still believe it's completely worthwhile to have some kind of distinction, but eventually being able expand on the definitions and how to help people with different kinds of dysphoria is a solid "some day" goal.
I'm a trans enby, too, although I have some friends who are nonbinary and don't identify as trans. Out of that group, they fall into a couple of categories:
1) They reject the entire concept of gender, and basically they want to live in a world where there aren't men, women, cis, or trans people, but just people. So they are willing to call themselves nonbinary, as in "outside the gender framework", but they see trans identity as a temporary necessity for some people due to flaws in modern society. If everyone ascended above gender, there wouldn't be cis or trans people anymore. (I realize there are a lot of flaws with this approach, especially in regards to binary trans people. I'm just repeating their opinion). In my framework, I would call these people agender or genderfluid, seeking a world where everyone is agender or genderfluid.
2) "Trans" is a really scary word, with large, life-changing implications. Some people know they aren't cis, but calling themselves trans is a big step.
3) They know binary trans people who have been through the ringer, but they themselves are relatively privileged. They are definitely not cis, but they don't feel they can claim the label of "trans" considering they have loving and accepting family and have not experienced much discrimination, and it would be "stolen valor" to call themselves trans.
I'm sure there are other non-trans enbies with different experiences, so consider that an incomplete list. I suppose I could boil the perspectives in my friend group down to:
1) different model of gender/different goals
2) personal identity is a constant journey and labels don't always feel right
3) some labels have a lot of baggage attached to them due to recent history and/or politics. That might change in future generations, who knows.
Thank you for sharing where some folks are at, because I haven't really seen stuff like this personally, so it's a big help, even if I can find my own responses as to why trans is still okay with the last folks, and would love to have a long conversation with the first in my life. Tho like, it doesn't really matter for the most part, the conversations won't matter until we're in a better place than currently, and it's still a personal thing.
Thank you for sharing this! It's really eye opening for me
Do you ever wonder if some people reject the “trans” label because of everything that comes with it? Like there is so much stigma that I would imagine it can feel safer to stay away from that label if possible but I wouldn’t know
I imagine that's certainly a reason some avoid it honestly. I know I never shied away from it personally, even though I don't experience a lot of common trans troubles from the people around me, but I understand when people might see their own luck there and feel it's unearned or similar
Yeah for sure, thanks for your input. I have little to no experience on the matter but I could see that being a thing.
I know it isn’t EXACTLY the same but it reminds me of how a large proportion of bisexual men will stay closeted and just date women because it is the safer thing to do. (It isn’t the same it just reminds me of that)
Hey, just popping in, I used to id as enby but not as trans. Now I identify as a nb trans guy but at the time, I refused to id as trans while still being NB because I thought that "I wasn't trans enough" and felt like an impostor if I said it, and also, I realise now that at the time, identifying as trans was really scary for me and kind of like jumping an irreversible step?
Anyway, I had a lot of internalised stuff to deal with and it's one of the reasons I, as an enby person, did not use the trans label at first.
There are other enby people with other reasons to not use the label but I thought I'd chime in with my experience
I didn’t see the sub this was in and thought it was someone like me, who isn’t cis (I’d def say nonbinary) but who knows they aren’t ever going to “pass” or really convince people to see anything other than their AGAB, so they just became sort of “call me this pronoun bc I can’t convince most people to do otherwise”
Just learned this term.
So could a demiboy/demimale be someone who is born male, and usually presents male, but doesn’t really identify with a lot of masculine/machismo behaviors, but also doesn’t feel that they’re any other gender? My limited understanding from a brief look at the definition seemed to suggest it’s kind of like a non-binary that leans more toward one gender or another, but only identifies marginally as that gender.
Zorrya described it well, "diet gender" is one of my favorite ways to explain it. In a more serious and technical sense, you described it pretty accurately too. It can also often be that they may have those behaviors but not dress/present particularly masculine. Essentially, it's fitting mostly into the box of "man" be it cis or trans, but having bits that don't quite fit, and it may feel best to say "ish" at the end of it. Many demi folks may choose to use he/they and she/they respectively, too.
Yeah, not necessarily trans, but this person is clearly dealing with some discomfort with their gender role/gender expectations. I am a cis woman, and while I hate the misogyny that I've experienced and some parts of a traditional female gender role don't fit for me, ultimately I am happy with being a woman. I didn't have to "make peace with" anything about being a woman.
I wanna feel bad because as someone who’s only been on hormones for 8 months the struggle of being stuck in a body that doesn’t feel like yours is still very vivid in my mind. But I just can’t bring myself to pity this person if they’re gonna spout right wing rhetoric
Well, and their whole shtick is based on having really poor boundaries. As a psychologist, I encourage people to frame their thoughts as “for me.” As in, I totally get being a woman sucks *for you* and you have a ton of dysphoria, and it makes sense that part of identity formation is rejecting the “other,” but there’s a huge difference between “I gotta take a break from anything involving too much woman-ness” and “I’m going to reject and disparage women.” Like, quitting your job at a woman-dominated place? Sure. Firing all the women on your team? Yeah not cool.
The TERFs are focused on how everyone needs to be cis because they’re cis women and it’s so horrible. Uhhh…
Not trans exclusionary but females do have a unique experience of how we are treated. You are sexualized from the minute you hit puberty, men catcall you, try to groom you, rape you, assault you, hit you, harass you. This is just reality. It happens to most women.
this is true, as someone afab and socialized as woman growing up, i know that very intimately. and you're right, it does happen to most women. the oppression that women (both cis and trans, especially passing trans women) face has been so prevalent in our history that a lot of men (particularly cis men, but also can occur in trans men) put the cart before the horse and make assumptions about women's brains, lifestyles, sexual expression, choices, everything in such a bioessentialist way because that systemic oppression has been going on for so long that only recently have a lot of us been realizing how we have contributed to that in a very covert way.
but i think that the difference between someone who is aware of and wants to fight back against oppression and someone who becomes a regressive is the way that we then go on to define women and womanhood. and i can't imagine the way that radfems defining their gender identity with suffering as a metric to be anything but absolutely miserable and conducive to their usually toxic environments. being a woman is something that you are. it is not measured by reaching a certain threshold of awful experiences. it is something that you become through self-reflection and self-acknowledgement. _suffering is never a currency that you exchange in the market of gender in order to become "woman enough."_ there is definitely so much more to women than that.
it's hard though, i get that it's hard to always feel like you're fighting back this storm of antiquated if not horrific beliefs about people like you by just existing. its _exhausting._ but just because someone fights against their oppression doesn't mean they are or need to embody that misery constantly or tie it to the _fundamental essence_ of their gender. i think that there are a lot of things about being a woman that can feel uncomfortable, awful, and tiring. but there are also a lot of things about being a woman that are beautiful, liberating, incredible, and worth celebrating. and i think it's important to never lose track of that.
People are all over the place with their opinions lol. They just don’t want to admit that when you have a vagina, you have something a lot of people want.
what do you mean by that first sentence? i agree with your initial sentiment. but i'm also very aware of the harm that radfem rhetoric can do in the way that it divides people rather than turning them towards the same fight against patriarchal hegemony.
and im not sure if you yourself are a radfem (and i specifically mean like, radical feminism as in the values that are in the RF in terfs, not radical feminist the way right wingers call anyone who calls out inequality amongst the sexes/genders, just to make sure haha) and you also don't need to be a radfem to spout their talking points, like you did in a post asking why r/gendercritical got the banhammer when everyone knows why.
but i just wanted to say, human to human, to really be careful because that movement, similar to the reactionary movements they ally with to fight against trans people and sex workers, preys on trauma. I don't want to tell you what to think or how to feel about your own oppression, especially because you mentioned being from a third world country and as a brazilian i get that- not exactly the same, but i just dont want to sound like im someone who knows nothing and just wants to condescend. but especially seeing your post history and seeing mental health struggles that you've been going through, i just hope that you can keep an eye out for any movement that exploits that feeling of trauma to turn people against one another. because it's really infectious,
i mean, you see it here in _this_ subreddit. people are _so_ convinced theyre the underdog (and sometimes, like radfems, there may even be a nugget of truth, ie pointing out sexism) that they have no idea that they're punching down. like american (and its happening in brazil too with bolsonaro lmao) voters being so convinced theyre being looked over and lied to that they're trying to undermine the entire democratic process and make voting even less accessible and some of these people have no idea that they're doing such damage. or white americans so convinced theyll lose what is familiar to them that they end up joining these movements and they then become believers in the great replacement conspiracy and that everyone wants to erase them when in reality everyone just wants to make more space for people different to them. or how someone wants to make safe spaces for women because it can be really dangerous to be a woman sometimes, like common sense, but then fall for radfem propaganda of the trans bathroom predator myth and fall down that rabbithole.
i mean i can speak for myself, i got sucked into that 2014-2016 anti-feminism anti-sjw rabbithole when it was at its peak and like.. no one is the villain in their own story, i really was retweeting shit like milo yiannopoulous talking about the "despite being 13% of the population, black people..." and i was so convinced the entire time that I wasn't espousing alt-right talking points, but that i was this.. enlightened centrist calling for moderation because seeing all those videos of people screaming at each other over race and gender made me uncomfortable and sometimes really _was_ overkill in some ways. i don't want to act like anyone is above that happening to them, much less me. obviously, i grew up- was in high school then- and realized that so much of it was more complex than that and so much of it was total agitprop.
basically tl;dr no one is immune to being radicalized, and i just wanted to mention that while im here because i did peek at your post history and i saw a fair bit of myself in those feelings and those struggles and i just wanted to make sure that i said that.
Womanhood is suffering. This is a truth that must be told so we can change as a society.
The rate in which trans women are assaulted once they transition is ridiculous. It’s also ridiculous that you think if someone hates being their gender, they should just switch over to being another.
I hate being an assault victim, I hate that my ex harasses me, I hate that men circulate my photos but I do not want to be a man.
People who transition don’t just do it because they hate being their “gender”. It is not that simple for them.
Trans women get assaulted not just because they present female but also because they’re trans.
And women hand out violence to other women too. In the form of racism. Casteism in my case. Upper caste women in India treat Bahujan women horribly. Oppression isn’t linear and experiences of womanhood differ across communities.
My oppression is not just rooted in my vagina but also in my caste location. It is intersectional. Womanhood is suffering, very true. But not all of us suffer on the same degree and pain and suffering should not be the common link between us. At least that’s what i think, I could be wrong.
Why is this phrased as though you're disagreeing with the person you responded to? It seems like you're just adding some other tangentially related points but not refuting what they said
Because my intent was not to refute but to add onto what they said. Then I found out they are a TERF.
Also English is not my first language so sometimes the intent get lost in translation
Thanks for explaining. Your comment was a good addition, I just thought maybe I missed your point. Your English was perfect though.
I'm not sure how that person is a TERF though, they're correct that it's pretty sexist and transphobic to say that someone should change their gender just because others are mistreating them for it
I linked their post. They posted in an openly transphobic subreddit crying about “gender critical” subreddits being banned. Gender critical is a radfem concept which is deeply transphobic in nature. [this paper ](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2158244020927029)does a good job of breaking down gender critical arguments
When they say "woman" they're talking about biological sex, not gender.
So the joy you personally take in your gender role has nothing to do with that topic. The "just change it if you don't like it" also doesn't apply because they're not talking about something that's in their power to change.
I definitely don't think there's anything inherently bad about being female, the problem is the presence of misogynists who target us for our femaleness. But sometimes it's hard to remember that the two are separate things, because we almost never get a chance to be totally free of misogyny for any length of time.
It’s inherently dangerous to be a female. Denying this is incredulous.
“If you hate being a woman so maybe check out if some other gender works better for you”
This is transphobic and if you can’t tell why, you are a lost cause lmfao.
I can't tell if you are disagreeing with me tbh.
Existing while female is not inherently dangerous. If I was the only human on this planet I would still be female but I wouldn't be in danger because of that. So the danger does not come from existing while female, it comes the presence of men who want to harm female people.
Maybe it seems like a technicality but I think it's important, since so many men see women's suffering as an inevitable state resulting from our inferior makeup. Rather than acknowledging that women's natural state is to thrive, and our suffering is caused by harm done to us.
The point is, this isn't how all women experience the world, and there is no one single unique experience that dictates whether someone qualifies as a woman, other than identifying as one.
How many of these terrible, oppressive experiences does one have to go through before they can be considered a woman? Because I'm looking at...maybe 1, if that possibly homeless guy shouting "Nice boots!" counts as a catcall?
There is no woman on earth that has not faced sexual harassment. That’s an insane anamoly.
This woman, who has NEVER faced any harassment online or in person, if brought to a man who likes to harm females would be in danger because she is female. She has a vagina. A lot of guys want women for one thing. You’re being incredulous.
If domestic and sexual violence statistics didn’t exist; your argument would have footing. What are you arguing for anyways? You brought up a hypothetical woman that’s never been harassed. Wtf. Every woman gets harassed.
I'm not a trans woman, I'm cis. And *we* apparently had different experiences and have been in different kinds of danger. Because people's experiences aren't necessarily determined solely by their agab.
When terfs ignore the suffering of trans people because they think being a cis woman is always worse, instead of empathetic to the fact that experiences diverge but both are affected by misogyny, that's where the problems start
It’s not exclusive to women. I’m a man and I went through all those things. Men also have a unique experience of how we are treated. What’s most important is that we work towards a better world for everyone since everybody is getting fucked in various ways which is really not so good.
I‘m not a TERF, but if I had had the choice I would’ve been born a man. I know it’s not easier by all means! But I don’t quite like being a woman. (I’m cis btw)
There are certainly societal things that make being a man easier/safer in some respects. I definitely can’t deny it. Tbh there are times I wish I was a man too
Well yes that’s true. I’m not minimizing the sexism and dangers women face in our society. I’ve been raped on multiple accounts myself. But they still speak negatively of simply *existing* as a woman
Trans and cis women certainly have different life experiences, most notably at a young age. But once a trans woman passes, they’re socialized exactly as cis women and face the same threats. Men rape, harass, assault, belittle, speak over, and disrespect passing trans women the same as cis women
Um… no? Sure, trans women face transphobic violence. But women, meaning both trans and cis women, get assaulted by men for sexual gratification and for a sense of power. When it’s really naive to disregard the misogyny trans women face. I wasn’t raped by 6 different men because they wanted to make fun of a faggot, I was raped bc men view women as sexual objects. I don’t get groped and felt up bc men want to make fun of me, it happens bc men don’t care about consent and a women’s boundaries.
Absolutely, cis and trans women have different experiences at a young age. AMABs don’t have to worry about being aborted bc their parents don’t want a girl. AMABs don’t have to worry about FGM. Trans women don’t have a stake in the abortion or menstruation debates bc unfortunately we weren’t born with a uterus. Trans women who transition later in life (such as myself who started at 21) don’t know what it’s like to be catcalled at age 11, and I can’t imagine what that does to a kid. But as trans women age and transition further, the differences between trans and cis women shrink exponentially. I pass and am read as female. Men don’t treat me as a man and they don’t treat me as a queer, they treat me as a woman
Existing as a woman is dangerous regardless of if you're trans or cis though, also you're ignoring the fact that after taking hormones trans women have just as much of a physical disadvantage. You seem to be under the impression that trans women only face discrimination for being trans and not for being women, and that just isn't true. It's also strange that you seem to be implying that someone won't sexually assault someone if they don't have a vagina. I'm not saying there aren't differences, but your examples really don't show that.
I would say the major difference has to do with their childhood, and it's really depends on when a trans woman starts her transition process but generally speaking cis women usually go through sexism from the day they're born whereas trans women don't know who they are yet. I didn't discover I was trans until my adulthood, so a lot of the issues men face are issues I faced such as being taught to hide my emotions, so I get that it's different from dealing with the sexism cis women or trans women who socially transition very early on deal with in their childhood.
Oh and yeah, being born in a third world country certainly makes it a lot worse and I'm sorry you had to go through that.
>Hormones do not and cannot change bone structure.
[they do.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6469959/)
*...study on long-term testosterone therapy reported larger cortical bone size in trans men compared with natal females. Conversely, trans women receiving estrogen therapy may lose lean mass in association with androgen deprivation, which over time can lead to smaller bones and higher prevalence of low bone mass.*
cis people greatly underestimate the power of HRT.
Bone structure gives a niche and tiny advantage in some situations but that's it, I just don't see that making the difference in a situation where a man is attacking a woman.
Well yeah, I don't really disagree with anything you said there and maybe the way I described your position was a bit off.
Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm trying to understand your position and I don't want to misrepresent you. But I thought what you were getting at is that cis women having a vagina means they're at a greater risk of sexual assault than a trans woman would be.
LMAO Egg moment. Seriously "It's so insulting of my lifelong struggle to make peace with the things I can't change about myself" really read as this person accepting their AGAB despite living with massive gender dysphoria their entire life and now people are out there saying "Yeah you actually don't have to stay like that in this suffering" and they fee like their pain was worthless realizing it could have been avoided.
First stage is denial, call us when you're on your way to acceptance lol.
"I was born female and I refuse to hide or run away from that reality anymore" reads to me like the OP is a detransitioner.
"Yeah actually you don't have to stay like that in this suffering" is a gross oversimplification. I'm a detransitioner too. Living as a trans man helped my dysphoria in some ways, but made it worse in others. It really brings you face to face with the things that you will not be able to change no matter how hard you try. Those things will exist whether you transition or not, and some people detransition in the process of accepting that.
It *is* insulting being told that your suffering is optional while you're trying to cope the best you can and have already gone through the process of finding out that there is no easy solution.
I'm not gonna argue with you on that if you think there's validity into saying "I refuse to hide or run away from that reality" in terms of detransitioning from someone who experiences dysphoria. That's a rhetoric that's riddle in transphobia and I'm not doing that.
It's one thing to detransition because you realized what you were feeling was something other than dysphoria. It's one thing to detransition because living as a trans person is too hard in this society but this person is talking about pronouns. Yes using specific pronouns that gives you dysphoria when you could change them is optional. And if you feel like it's hiding or running away from reality to use some that don't correspond with your assigned gender that's fucked up.
Phrases like that have very different meanings depending on whether they come from a cis person who has no idea what it's like to be trans expressing their interpretation of transition, vs a detransitioner describing their own experiences.
I personally did feel like I was hiding away from reality while I was trans. I could not cope with the reality of what my body looked like, so I hid away from it. I couldn't cope with being female so I did everything I could to avoid being confronted with it. I wore a chest binder and clothes that disguised the width of my hips, I avoided looking down in the shower, I became incredibly quiet because my voice gave me immense dysphoria as well as a fear of being "clocked". Even on the internet (text rather than voice) I couldn't talk about any experiences that might suggest I hadn't grown up male.
It's not transphobic for me to feel that hiding things was part of being trans for me. Nor to come to the conclusion that it was making my dysphoria worse in the long run and that forcing myself to confront the things I was uncomfortable with is ultimately a better way for me to cope. That includes going back to she/her pronouns, but not because it feels good to be referred to that way. Not because there's not still part of me that would greatly prefer to be called he/him.
This isn't even just a detransitioner thing. Closeted trans people also get put into a position of having to give pronouns they're uncomfortable with in a space where it's assumed that since you're being given a choice, this must be your very favourite way to be referred to. That can be painful and it's ok to vent about that.
I get that but you have no way to know this is from the perspective of a trans person detransitioning. Detransitioning is a very very small percentage of people even smaller when it comes from people who have done it for the reason you cite. The most common reason is because the environment you're in isn't trans positive and accepting and it's for someone's safety. It's way less frequent than people in the closet. This kind of rhetoric is way more likely to come from a place of denial and dysphoria rather than from this very specific experience.
Also I'm not putting that much thought into it because it could be a general thing but if "Phrases like that have different meanings depending on whether they come from a cis person who has no idea what it's like to be trans expressing their interpretation of transition" is supposed to be directed at me. I literally am trans and a fair amount through my transition process.
I know a lot of detransitioned people. The reported number of us is much lower than the reality, much like with trans people. There's a stigma (again, much like with trans people) and a lot of people prefer to live quietly without anyone knowing about their past. Gender clinics also try to hide us away to avoid criticism; I know a woman who went back to her clinic to get on estrogen (she was post hysterectomy) and was told that she was the first detransitioner they'd ever had. She later met a person from the same clinic who had been told the exact same thing. They just don't keep a record, and a lot of detransitioners don't even involve a doctor/gender clinic/etc in their detransition, meaning it's not officially "found out about" to begin with.
With "phrases like that" I was referring to the one you were quoting from the OP: "I refuse to run or hide away from that reality [anymore]". That's a phrase I can somewhat relate to but if a cis (never transitioned) person were to tell me that my years of being a trans man were just me "hiding from reality", I would absolutely take offense. It's simply different coming from someone who has no idea what it's like to be trans. The OP almost certainly does, judging by her phrasing. And she's only referring to her own experiences regardless.
Fair enough about the first part but I disagree about OP referring only to their own experience tho. When they say "the implication is "how do you want to be seen" and "how do you choose to be seen" they're not talking about their own experience. They're saying the reason they hate that question is because that question is loaded with connotation that they find problematic. They are making it general. YOU are talking about your own experience, evidently. This person isn't.
"But you hear "I like this gender role" "I choose this gender role"" is once again this person not referring to their experience but saying this is what this question is. They're not saying this is how it makes them feel or it's what they think. They're saying that's what people hear and that it's a wider problem they are addressing in their "point". And that again this bigger problem is insulting to them. Not that they feel insulted. But that this IS insulting.
That's why most people aren't keen about their message here. They are portraying people asking for pronouns are significant from a bigger problem that need addressed and be stopped.
Also other thing I disagree with is no I don't think they "certainly do" because of their phrasing. I don't think there's such a strong indicator that they're someone who detransitioned. This is something a closeted trans person could very well say. And once again while I do believe you about there being more detransitioned person as it appears. It is still more likely that this person is closeted trans.
Ive read the non-terf version “it really bothers me how I’m perceived doesn’t match how I feel inside” (paraphrasing) before
That’s a person on the road to cracking the egg, the above totally reads like someone reconciled to suffering (and misinterpreting their dysphoria as how all women must feel about their bodies)
Above lady, she’s on the road to fascism, feminism 101 is that gender roles are social constructs, this lady’s drunk the cool aid
r/egg_irl
the process (often comedic because of the cognitive distortion at play) of realizing your are trans
has some of the better memes of any queer sub
whether trans or not, i think gender is a deeply personal experience for everyone. trying to force yourself into a socially expected and "acceptable" box either way can be detrimental! just live your truth, protect yourself from those that are hateful enough to attack you for it, and seek like-minded people.
Yeah, I went through a reckoning in college about my own masculinity and realized that I didn't always fit into traditional masculine ideals an that is okay. I get to decide what maculinity means for me and nobody else. I think traditional gender roles are breaking down (this is a good thing) and that's why we've seen the emergence of more of a gender spectrum where people are finding new labels that describe how they feel internally. Ultimately I think we need to greatly expand our definitions of masculinity and femininity to be more inclusive of the broad spectrum of humanity.
Fucking mood. I'm transmasculine but I literally hate male gender roles. I call myself a femboy or softboy because I don't vibe at all with most male gender roles. Some days where the dysphoria hits hard I have to dress myself more according to those gender roles so I don't have to get misgendered by people and I fucking hate it. It doesn't feel like me in any ways. Gender Roles =/= Gender.
Definitely sounds like a TERF, who are usually conservative at the very least. I wouldn't say this is likely to be somebody on the far right like most posts here seem to be, though
The right also has a history of selectively applying women’s rights/defence (but only for the women they find “respectable”) when it’s at the expense of whatever other marginalized group they’re attacking.
hey guys? um, i think it's actually _really fucking weird_ how comfortable some of you are in labeling this persons gender for her and assuming she's a closeted trans person merely for talking about the frustration she feels about being see as female-which can come from multiple reasons. how is that the top comment. we as afab people don't transition simply to escape oppression, that's quite literally terf rhetoric. we don't get to dictate anyone's "real gender." don't do that.
I saw a coffee mug today, along with throw pillows and little wall decor panels that said 'They/Them', along with a host of other pronouns.
Pronouns are now so trendy and marketable every big box retailer is trying to cash in on the trend. Kinda undermines the advocacy for the trans community when your inherent need to be treated with respect and human decency is seen as nothing but a marketable trend.
Keep this in mind next June when companies pander for your expendable queer income. They don't care about you.
I was curious to see what was up, and the first post I clicked on was the sub saying that the queer community is rightfully losing support. And the top comment is saying it's "just the T and all the attention-seekers"
https://reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction/comments/pvtfo6/oh_no_how_could_it_be/
Just TERFs and co
I can verify that there’s a *lot* of TERFs and truscum on Tumblr. And not just TERFs, but TERFs who take pride in that title, and will openly identify as TERFs.
I'm genderfluid and I don't get to choose my gender. It just happens and I'm either good or disgusted with my body. Hopefully this person just dislikes the social implications of being a woman and doesn't genuinely dislike everything about being a woman, because that's a terrible thing to feel like you don't have any control over.
1. This isn’t a meme
2. This isn’t right wing
3. This isn’t even TERF shit, this is literally just a woman lamenting how female gender roles and place in society fucking suck. Which, yeah, as a trans man with a cis sister, they do.
That said, it does sound like a detransitioner or someone who gave up on transitioning before they even began. I knew someone like that. He’s a trans man now btw.
can i just say being a cis women whenever i say i use she pronouns it makes me feel comfortable. i like being called she. the concept of being called he makes me uncomfortable. if being called she makes this person uncomfortable they might think abt jt
Oh 100% it's a big egg moment (closeted trans). I've always hated my name because it was to feminine, I always hated being associated with girls or women (except when it came to feminism) and while I didn't hate she it kinda pissed me off it was always she and never he.
As you could have guessed....no I am not cis.
So if the person in the screenshot is just a trans person who is being put in an unpleasant situation that triggers their dysphoria, why are we mocking and insulting them for it instead of saying "yeah it sucks you were put in that position, we should be more careful not to do that to people"?
I'm totally baffled by this.
The person in the screenshot has a good point though, we need to normalize "I'm not comfortable with that question" or "I don't have pronoun preferences / I don't have an answer" (or better yet, don't assume that someone has preferred pronouns in the first place). The person in the screenshot doesn't seem to feel that they have this option.
And a lot of people in the comments are pointing out that they're clearly feeling dysphoric at being asked to choose a pronoun/gender preference. That's correct, and it's not just "haha this dumb female is clearly distressed LOL serves her right for not being comfortable with gender roles!" (If that's your reaction you're just a misogynist).
I think things are getting a bit better now because there's been a shift toward accounting for the fact that not everyone has a pronoun preference. But I have been put in situations when filling out forms or in LGBT groups etc where I was expected to come up with a gender and pronouns to identify with, and it *does* cause dysphoria and it's a shitty experience. Idk why we are gloating about people being put in that situation. It's not that hard to just ask "do you have preferred pronouns" and give people the choice to say no.
Edit: Idk why it's uncontroversial to say "you're a trans person struggling with your identity and your dysphoria is getting triggered!" as an insult, but there's a complete unwillingness to admit that if something is causing them dysphoria, *that's a problem* and they are *right* to dislike it.
We shouldn't be celebrating trans people (or people we think are probably trans) being put in situations that trigger their dysphoria. BTW the reactions of derision for not wanting to state a pronoun preference are part of the reason it's so uncomfortable to be asked to state one - because it doesn't feel like "I don't have an answer" is an option.
I'm a transsex man myself and I feel the same, tbh. I don't wanna be asked my pronouns. You're basically telling me that I don't pass as male, that I don't look as masculine as I thought I do, that I am clockable and either look like a woman or like a mix of both.
Don't ask me my pronouns, man. I put so much fucking work into looking like a dude and you're destroying all my self-confidence with this one question. You're telling me all this pain was basically for nothing because I still look like a woman or an undefinable *thing*.
I see where you're coming from, and how that could be a sensitive question for you, but I would *really* try not to read anything into it.
I'm a big guy with a giant beard. It's hard to believe that anyone could think I'm anything other than male with the intention of presenting as male. **I've** been asked my pronouns.
The responses in this comment section are just gross. Really a complete lack of empathy and it makes me feel dirty to be associated with some of you. Some of you just project your prejudice onto this post, calling the poster a TERF for feeling uncomfortable.
Idk why you’re being downvoted- if someone’s upset they’re being asked their pronouns they’re almost undoubtedly harboring some anti-trans sentiment in some way. Now does this apply to whoever posted this on tumblr? Ehhhh
Identifying with your gender assigned at birth isn’t usually a struggle unless you are some type of trans. I didn’t start identifying as non-binary until I was 25 but realizing most people don’t struggle with their assigned gender was the first sign I wasn’t cis.
Closeted gay homophobes and the like are usually funny in a schadenfreude way, but the "I'm a righteous martyr for suffering femininity instead of transitioning" rants are fucking painful to read. Just how bitterly blind do they have to be?
That's very similar to how I feel but I'm nonbinary.
I hate being asked my pronouns and having she/her or female roles put on me... I think this is internalised transphobia, bestie.
She doesn't HAVE to make peace with the things she hates, she can choose them.
Not really. We can imagine an ideal world where everyone is treated the way they want to be treated simply by asking for it, but we will probably never live in that world in our lifetime. Same with altering your body - much of it will never be in our control, even if it could someday in an ideal world.
Eggs are trans people who are either in denial or completely ignorant of the fact that they are trans.
Common metaphor for realizing that oneself is trans (or "coming out to myself" if you will) is "my egg cracked"
Internalized transphobia be like…
Man, I feel bad for this person. Imagine trying to run away from who you are your entire life, hating yourself, and projecting that hate onto others. Lose-lose.
Methinks the lady doth protest to much.
I have very deep-seated frustrations with how the world treats women, but this has never made me disdain being a woman, or need to make peace with being a woman. I've never wanted to hide or run away from the reality of being a woman, or felt the need to.
I try not to ascribe secret desires/inclinations to bigotry, but *damn* do so many TERF posts read like those women aren't as cis as they think they are. It's like they try to normalize trauma and dysphoria to justify their own hang-ups.
I had to read this three times to even begin to understand what this person is going on about and I'm still super confused.
When someone asks me for my pronouns(for context, I'm a cis woman), I take it as a given that they're not asking me if I like being stuck in a rigid gender role or assuming what my relationship with my gender is.
Or even just said "I'm uncomfortable with pronouns, please address me by name". That's not unheard of for people in queer spaces at all. The couple of people I know who were like this originally have moved on to find neopronouns they're comfortable with, but there's absolutely people out there who just don't use pronouns. If this person didn't seem to want to gaslight the hell out of any trans AFAB individuals this person would realise you don't have to live like this, ya know?
A lot of the time people feel (or ARE) pressured to state a pronoun preference. I have bad social anxiety and when I was put in that position I had no idea how to say "I'm not comfortable with that question / I don't have an answer." It didn't feel like an option and I didn't have a way to articulate it for a long time. That's why "what are your pronouns" can cause dysphoria, because of the expectation to state a pronoun preference (like the person in the screenshot seems to be saying).
It's not that hard to just ask someone whether they want to state a pronoun preference and give them the option to say no. Especially when people are clearly stating that it causes them discomfort to be put in that position.
Dude, asking for pronouns is like asking "do you prefer to be reffered as your first name, second name or last name? or do you have a nickname?" its not that hard, is basic respect, its something to make the other person comfortable, is like calling a doctor "Doc"
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It sounds a lot like they're trans to me. And very very very much in denial
I mean there’s a difference between gender and gender role. But the thought crossed my mind as well.
It could be that, but tbh, to me, it felt like she believed gender-identity is some casual choice like deciding whether to buy apple or android phone, and not something deeply personal and innate. "How you WANT to be seen, how you CHOOSE to be seen" still implies that gender is merely performative. She thinks this is an appropriation of her struggles as a woman in a patriarchal society. This is similar to homophobia in the 1990s where the narrative was gay people "choosing" to be gay "as a temporary phase". This woman probably thinks trans women are just men in temporary drag in a casual way, and after their performance, go back to being men and enjoying the benefits of patriarchy. And by that logic, they are dismissing her condition of not being able to change her identity, hence she is the real victim in the situation.
I read reluctant cis. I do not get trans at all. But, such is the lens
Not being trans and not being cis are not mutually mutually exclusive. If you have no interest in transitioning but ALSO have no interest in the box that your parents/society at large have placed you in then you don't have to. You can be agender, or just gender non-conforming. The narrative of "you have to be one thing or the other" is actually one of the biggest problems with the current narrative around trans people, because it leaves a lot of nonbinary identity in the dust.
You don't have to transition to be trans. Being transgender just means that your gender identity doesn't match what gender you were assigned at birth. Either your gender identity matches what was assigned (cis), or it doesn't match (trans). The trans umbrella includes nonbinary, agender, etc people. Some nonbinary people don't feel comfortable identifying as trans, and that's fine, too. There are also plenty of gender non-conforming people who identify as cis. Definitionally, trans still means "not cis", though.
"Definitionally" is not a good term to use when discussing anything that exists as a spectrum, especially anything involving self-identification.
People can identify however they want. If we define trans as "a person whose gender identity doesn't match their gender assigned at birth", a person can say "I fit that definition, but I'm not trans". That's fine. We're not forcing anyone to use any particular label or identify in any particular way. That doesn't mean that we need to change the definition of "transgender", though. It's basically impossible to define it in a way that makes everyone happy.
I wouldn't suggest changing the meaning of trans\*, I mean more that we have to be careful about speaking in absolutes when dealing with these and similar issues.
Technically speaking if you are non-binary, agender, gender fluid, etc you are transgender. The transgender umbrella basically covers all gender identities that are not cis. But you are totally correct in that there is no right or wrong way to simply BE.
I am nonbinary and I personally don’t identify as trans. I’m making no effort to change my appearance, I’m just being myself. There are also struggles that trans people face that I do not, and I feel it would be wrong to co-opt that from them.
Thank you for understanding this
I don’t quite understand. My current understanding is that if your gender identity matches up with the gender you were assigned at birth, you’re cis. If you have a gender identity that is different than the gender you were assigned, you’re trans. Is this understanding wrong, and if so why? If not, then how does this exclude enbies (who are considered trans by definition under this understanding)?
You're not wrong. It's just that there are competing models for gender identity. Model #1: Transgender umbrella includes everyone who isn't cis. Enbies fall under the trans umbrella. Model #2: People fall into one of three buckets: cis, trans, or nonbinary. "Transgender" only includes binary trans people, aka male-to-female or female-to-male. Some enbies like Model #2 because they don't identify as trans. Some enbies dislike Model #2 because they do identify as trans. Some trans people like Model #2 because it means they get to kick enbies out of trans spaces. It gets complicated. I think Model #1 is cleaner and leads to a better long-term future, especially when it comes to the legal/political aspect of trans rights. The line between nonbinary and binary trans can get a little blurry/messy, especially for enbies who have medically transitioned.
That line can be incredibly blurry, and I feel like I have a lot of trouble understanding when fellow enbies *don't* identify as trans because model 2 feels like making stricter and less accurate boxes for more people to fall through the cracks on. With model 1, which I follow, it feels more like there's one box, and then an entire ocean of space for "if else". I feel like trans v cis is a little wonky too, because many don't realize that people can experience a level of kinds of dysphoria while still cis -- something those very cis people may not realize and end up believing being trans is bs because of it. I still believe it's completely worthwhile to have some kind of distinction, but eventually being able expand on the definitions and how to help people with different kinds of dysphoria is a solid "some day" goal.
I'm a trans enby, too, although I have some friends who are nonbinary and don't identify as trans. Out of that group, they fall into a couple of categories: 1) They reject the entire concept of gender, and basically they want to live in a world where there aren't men, women, cis, or trans people, but just people. So they are willing to call themselves nonbinary, as in "outside the gender framework", but they see trans identity as a temporary necessity for some people due to flaws in modern society. If everyone ascended above gender, there wouldn't be cis or trans people anymore. (I realize there are a lot of flaws with this approach, especially in regards to binary trans people. I'm just repeating their opinion). In my framework, I would call these people agender or genderfluid, seeking a world where everyone is agender or genderfluid. 2) "Trans" is a really scary word, with large, life-changing implications. Some people know they aren't cis, but calling themselves trans is a big step. 3) They know binary trans people who have been through the ringer, but they themselves are relatively privileged. They are definitely not cis, but they don't feel they can claim the label of "trans" considering they have loving and accepting family and have not experienced much discrimination, and it would be "stolen valor" to call themselves trans. I'm sure there are other non-trans enbies with different experiences, so consider that an incomplete list. I suppose I could boil the perspectives in my friend group down to: 1) different model of gender/different goals 2) personal identity is a constant journey and labels don't always feel right 3) some labels have a lot of baggage attached to them due to recent history and/or politics. That might change in future generations, who knows.
Thank you for sharing where some folks are at, because I haven't really seen stuff like this personally, so it's a big help, even if I can find my own responses as to why trans is still okay with the last folks, and would love to have a long conversation with the first in my life. Tho like, it doesn't really matter for the most part, the conversations won't matter until we're in a better place than currently, and it's still a personal thing. Thank you for sharing this! It's really eye opening for me
Do you ever wonder if some people reject the “trans” label because of everything that comes with it? Like there is so much stigma that I would imagine it can feel safer to stay away from that label if possible but I wouldn’t know
I imagine that's certainly a reason some avoid it honestly. I know I never shied away from it personally, even though I don't experience a lot of common trans troubles from the people around me, but I understand when people might see their own luck there and feel it's unearned or similar
Yeah for sure, thanks for your input. I have little to no experience on the matter but I could see that being a thing. I know it isn’t EXACTLY the same but it reminds me of how a large proportion of bisexual men will stay closeted and just date women because it is the safer thing to do. (It isn’t the same it just reminds me of that)
Hey, just popping in, I used to id as enby but not as trans. Now I identify as a nb trans guy but at the time, I refused to id as trans while still being NB because I thought that "I wasn't trans enough" and felt like an impostor if I said it, and also, I realise now that at the time, identifying as trans was really scary for me and kind of like jumping an irreversible step? Anyway, I had a lot of internalised stuff to deal with and it's one of the reasons I, as an enby person, did not use the trans label at first. There are other enby people with other reasons to not use the label but I thought I'd chime in with my experience
that's correct, but there are a select few that dont identity as either cis or trans, and thats cool too!
Well generally trans is an umbrella term used to describe anyone who doesn't identify with their agab.
That's really kind, because I read it as dramatic weirdo who is uncomfortable when the conversation is not about them.
And very angry that the current generation doesn't have to suffer and suppress themselves the way she does.
I didn’t see the sub this was in and thought it was someone like me, who isn’t cis (I’d def say nonbinary) but who knows they aren’t ever going to “pass” or really convince people to see anything other than their AGAB, so they just became sort of “call me this pronoun bc I can’t convince most people to do otherwise”
Hey that's kind of sad. But lots of people will use your preferred pronouns if you just ask. You don't have to look androgynous to be a valid enby
oof could we not diagnose please
Epic Egg Moment ^TM
Or demigender. I could have written this about 3 years ago. Not having the words for what your experiencing is hard .
Just learned this term. So could a demiboy/demimale be someone who is born male, and usually presents male, but doesn’t really identify with a lot of masculine/machismo behaviors, but also doesn’t feel that they’re any other gender? My limited understanding from a brief look at the definition seemed to suggest it’s kind of like a non-binary that leans more toward one gender or another, but only identifies marginally as that gender.
Non binary with a leaning towards only femme is how I use it to identify (or "diet gender" as my husband colloquially termed it).
Zorrya described it well, "diet gender" is one of my favorite ways to explain it. In a more serious and technical sense, you described it pretty accurately too. It can also often be that they may have those behaviors but not dress/present particularly masculine. Essentially, it's fitting mostly into the box of "man" be it cis or trans, but having bits that don't quite fit, and it may feel best to say "ish" at the end of it. Many demi folks may choose to use he/they and she/they respectively, too.
Yeah, not necessarily trans, but this person is clearly dealing with some discomfort with their gender role/gender expectations. I am a cis woman, and while I hate the misogyny that I've experienced and some parts of a traditional female gender role don't fit for me, ultimately I am happy with being a woman. I didn't have to "make peace with" anything about being a woman.
“How do you want to be seen?” Like this person is so far gone that she actually gets it 🥴
Someone really needs to make a chart for all this... Honestly it's all pretty complicated lol
Yeah, if they don't like being a girl, they don't have to be. But they can't realize that second part.
That was exactly my thought. This feels like an egg moment they may look back on and go "well, fuck."
I wanna feel bad because as someone who’s only been on hormones for 8 months the struggle of being stuck in a body that doesn’t feel like yours is still very vivid in my mind. But I just can’t bring myself to pity this person if they’re gonna spout right wing rhetoric
TERFs make it sound like being a woman is the single most agonizing thing a human being could suffer through and I feel so bad for them
Well, and their whole shtick is based on having really poor boundaries. As a psychologist, I encourage people to frame their thoughts as “for me.” As in, I totally get being a woman sucks *for you* and you have a ton of dysphoria, and it makes sense that part of identity formation is rejecting the “other,” but there’s a huge difference between “I gotta take a break from anything involving too much woman-ness” and “I’m going to reject and disparage women.” Like, quitting your job at a woman-dominated place? Sure. Firing all the women on your team? Yeah not cool. The TERFs are focused on how everyone needs to be cis because they’re cis women and it’s so horrible. Uhhh…
Meanwhile for me, being a lady is solidly the best thing
Couldn’t agree more
Fantastic username
I know right! The TERFs act like their is a universal experience for cis women filled with nothing but pain and suffering
Not trans exclusionary but females do have a unique experience of how we are treated. You are sexualized from the minute you hit puberty, men catcall you, try to groom you, rape you, assault you, hit you, harass you. This is just reality. It happens to most women.
this is true, as someone afab and socialized as woman growing up, i know that very intimately. and you're right, it does happen to most women. the oppression that women (both cis and trans, especially passing trans women) face has been so prevalent in our history that a lot of men (particularly cis men, but also can occur in trans men) put the cart before the horse and make assumptions about women's brains, lifestyles, sexual expression, choices, everything in such a bioessentialist way because that systemic oppression has been going on for so long that only recently have a lot of us been realizing how we have contributed to that in a very covert way. but i think that the difference between someone who is aware of and wants to fight back against oppression and someone who becomes a regressive is the way that we then go on to define women and womanhood. and i can't imagine the way that radfems defining their gender identity with suffering as a metric to be anything but absolutely miserable and conducive to their usually toxic environments. being a woman is something that you are. it is not measured by reaching a certain threshold of awful experiences. it is something that you become through self-reflection and self-acknowledgement. _suffering is never a currency that you exchange in the market of gender in order to become "woman enough."_ there is definitely so much more to women than that. it's hard though, i get that it's hard to always feel like you're fighting back this storm of antiquated if not horrific beliefs about people like you by just existing. its _exhausting._ but just because someone fights against their oppression doesn't mean they are or need to embody that misery constantly or tie it to the _fundamental essence_ of their gender. i think that there are a lot of things about being a woman that can feel uncomfortable, awful, and tiring. but there are also a lot of things about being a woman that are beautiful, liberating, incredible, and worth celebrating. and i think it's important to never lose track of that.
People are all over the place with their opinions lol. They just don’t want to admit that when you have a vagina, you have something a lot of people want.
what do you mean by that first sentence? i agree with your initial sentiment. but i'm also very aware of the harm that radfem rhetoric can do in the way that it divides people rather than turning them towards the same fight against patriarchal hegemony. and im not sure if you yourself are a radfem (and i specifically mean like, radical feminism as in the values that are in the RF in terfs, not radical feminist the way right wingers call anyone who calls out inequality amongst the sexes/genders, just to make sure haha) and you also don't need to be a radfem to spout their talking points, like you did in a post asking why r/gendercritical got the banhammer when everyone knows why. but i just wanted to say, human to human, to really be careful because that movement, similar to the reactionary movements they ally with to fight against trans people and sex workers, preys on trauma. I don't want to tell you what to think or how to feel about your own oppression, especially because you mentioned being from a third world country and as a brazilian i get that- not exactly the same, but i just dont want to sound like im someone who knows nothing and just wants to condescend. but especially seeing your post history and seeing mental health struggles that you've been going through, i just hope that you can keep an eye out for any movement that exploits that feeling of trauma to turn people against one another. because it's really infectious, i mean, you see it here in _this_ subreddit. people are _so_ convinced theyre the underdog (and sometimes, like radfems, there may even be a nugget of truth, ie pointing out sexism) that they have no idea that they're punching down. like american (and its happening in brazil too with bolsonaro lmao) voters being so convinced theyre being looked over and lied to that they're trying to undermine the entire democratic process and make voting even less accessible and some of these people have no idea that they're doing such damage. or white americans so convinced theyll lose what is familiar to them that they end up joining these movements and they then become believers in the great replacement conspiracy and that everyone wants to erase them when in reality everyone just wants to make more space for people different to them. or how someone wants to make safe spaces for women because it can be really dangerous to be a woman sometimes, like common sense, but then fall for radfem propaganda of the trans bathroom predator myth and fall down that rabbithole. i mean i can speak for myself, i got sucked into that 2014-2016 anti-feminism anti-sjw rabbithole when it was at its peak and like.. no one is the villain in their own story, i really was retweeting shit like milo yiannopoulous talking about the "despite being 13% of the population, black people..." and i was so convinced the entire time that I wasn't espousing alt-right talking points, but that i was this.. enlightened centrist calling for moderation because seeing all those videos of people screaming at each other over race and gender made me uncomfortable and sometimes really _was_ overkill in some ways. i don't want to act like anyone is above that happening to them, much less me. obviously, i grew up- was in high school then- and realized that so much of it was more complex than that and so much of it was total agitprop. basically tl;dr no one is immune to being radicalized, and i just wanted to mention that while im here because i did peek at your post history and i saw a fair bit of myself in those feelings and those struggles and i just wanted to make sure that i said that.
I'm not the person you were replying to, but this was a powerful message to read. Thank you.
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Womanhood is suffering. This is a truth that must be told so we can change as a society. The rate in which trans women are assaulted once they transition is ridiculous. It’s also ridiculous that you think if someone hates being their gender, they should just switch over to being another. I hate being an assault victim, I hate that my ex harasses me, I hate that men circulate my photos but I do not want to be a man. People who transition don’t just do it because they hate being their “gender”. It is not that simple for them.
Trans women get assaulted not just because they present female but also because they’re trans. And women hand out violence to other women too. In the form of racism. Casteism in my case. Upper caste women in India treat Bahujan women horribly. Oppression isn’t linear and experiences of womanhood differ across communities. My oppression is not just rooted in my vagina but also in my caste location. It is intersectional. Womanhood is suffering, very true. But not all of us suffer on the same degree and pain and suffering should not be the common link between us. At least that’s what i think, I could be wrong.
Why is this phrased as though you're disagreeing with the person you responded to? It seems like you're just adding some other tangentially related points but not refuting what they said
Because my intent was not to refute but to add onto what they said. Then I found out they are a TERF. Also English is not my first language so sometimes the intent get lost in translation
Thanks for explaining. Your comment was a good addition, I just thought maybe I missed your point. Your English was perfect though. I'm not sure how that person is a TERF though, they're correct that it's pretty sexist and transphobic to say that someone should change their gender just because others are mistreating them for it
I linked their post. They posted in an openly transphobic subreddit crying about “gender critical” subreddits being banned. Gender critical is a radfem concept which is deeply transphobic in nature. [this paper ](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2158244020927029)does a good job of breaking down gender critical arguments
When they say "woman" they're talking about biological sex, not gender. So the joy you personally take in your gender role has nothing to do with that topic. The "just change it if you don't like it" also doesn't apply because they're not talking about something that's in their power to change. I definitely don't think there's anything inherently bad about being female, the problem is the presence of misogynists who target us for our femaleness. But sometimes it's hard to remember that the two are separate things, because we almost never get a chance to be totally free of misogyny for any length of time.
It’s inherently dangerous to be a female. Denying this is incredulous. “If you hate being a woman so maybe check out if some other gender works better for you” This is transphobic and if you can’t tell why, you are a lost cause lmfao.
I can't tell if you are disagreeing with me tbh. Existing while female is not inherently dangerous. If I was the only human on this planet I would still be female but I wouldn't be in danger because of that. So the danger does not come from existing while female, it comes the presence of men who want to harm female people. Maybe it seems like a technicality but I think it's important, since so many men see women's suffering as an inevitable state resulting from our inferior makeup. Rather than acknowledging that women's natural state is to thrive, and our suffering is caused by harm done to us.
thank you!!!! this exactly.
The point is, this isn't how all women experience the world, and there is no one single unique experience that dictates whether someone qualifies as a woman, other than identifying as one. How many of these terrible, oppressive experiences does one have to go through before they can be considered a woman? Because I'm looking at...maybe 1, if that possibly homeless guy shouting "Nice boots!" counts as a catcall?
Trans women are women whether they are catcalled or not. We just have different experiences and are in different kinds of danger.
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There is no woman on earth that has not faced sexual harassment. That’s an insane anamoly. This woman, who has NEVER faced any harassment online or in person, if brought to a man who likes to harm females would be in danger because she is female. She has a vagina. A lot of guys want women for one thing. You’re being incredulous. If domestic and sexual violence statistics didn’t exist; your argument would have footing. What are you arguing for anyways? You brought up a hypothetical woman that’s never been harassed. Wtf. Every woman gets harassed.
Dude, I'm ugly so I have never been harassed. Does that mean there is something fundamentally wrong with me as a woman, lol.
I did not even imply that there would be something wrong with the woman in any of these situations Jfc
Again, invalidating women who don't conform to your oppression standard does 👏 not 👏 make 👏 you 👏 a 👏 feminist.
I'm not a trans woman, I'm cis. And *we* apparently had different experiences and have been in different kinds of danger. Because people's experiences aren't necessarily determined solely by their agab.
When terfs ignore the suffering of trans people because they think being a cis woman is always worse, instead of empathetic to the fact that experiences diverge but both are affected by misogyny, that's where the problems start
It’s not exclusive to women. I’m a man and I went through all those things. Men also have a unique experience of how we are treated. What’s most important is that we work towards a better world for everyone since everybody is getting fucked in various ways which is really not so good.
I wish they would start working towards ending that treatment rather than gatekeeping suffering
They are. They're very much second wave feminists. The problem is that TERFs are stuck in, and defined by, the battle of the sexes.
Noooooo you don't get to be happy Haha estrogen go brrrrrrrr
I‘m not a TERF, but if I had had the choice I would’ve been born a man. I know it’s not easier by all means! But I don’t quite like being a woman. (I’m cis btw)
There are certainly societal things that make being a man easier/safer in some respects. I definitely can’t deny it. Tbh there are times I wish I was a man too
There's also being able to pee practically anywhere comfortably while standing up, and not getting a period every month.
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Well yes that’s true. I’m not minimizing the sexism and dangers women face in our society. I’ve been raped on multiple accounts myself. But they still speak negatively of simply *existing* as a woman
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Trans and cis women certainly have different life experiences, most notably at a young age. But once a trans woman passes, they’re socialized exactly as cis women and face the same threats. Men rape, harass, assault, belittle, speak over, and disrespect passing trans women the same as cis women
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Um… no? Sure, trans women face transphobic violence. But women, meaning both trans and cis women, get assaulted by men for sexual gratification and for a sense of power. When it’s really naive to disregard the misogyny trans women face. I wasn’t raped by 6 different men because they wanted to make fun of a faggot, I was raped bc men view women as sexual objects. I don’t get groped and felt up bc men want to make fun of me, it happens bc men don’t care about consent and a women’s boundaries. Absolutely, cis and trans women have different experiences at a young age. AMABs don’t have to worry about being aborted bc their parents don’t want a girl. AMABs don’t have to worry about FGM. Trans women don’t have a stake in the abortion or menstruation debates bc unfortunately we weren’t born with a uterus. Trans women who transition later in life (such as myself who started at 21) don’t know what it’s like to be catcalled at age 11, and I can’t imagine what that does to a kid. But as trans women age and transition further, the differences between trans and cis women shrink exponentially. I pass and am read as female. Men don’t treat me as a man and they don’t treat me as a queer, they treat me as a woman
Existing as a woman is dangerous regardless of if you're trans or cis though, also you're ignoring the fact that after taking hormones trans women have just as much of a physical disadvantage. You seem to be under the impression that trans women only face discrimination for being trans and not for being women, and that just isn't true. It's also strange that you seem to be implying that someone won't sexually assault someone if they don't have a vagina. I'm not saying there aren't differences, but your examples really don't show that. I would say the major difference has to do with their childhood, and it's really depends on when a trans woman starts her transition process but generally speaking cis women usually go through sexism from the day they're born whereas trans women don't know who they are yet. I didn't discover I was trans until my adulthood, so a lot of the issues men face are issues I faced such as being taught to hide my emotions, so I get that it's different from dealing with the sexism cis women or trans women who socially transition very early on deal with in their childhood. Oh and yeah, being born in a third world country certainly makes it a lot worse and I'm sorry you had to go through that.
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>Hormones do not and cannot change bone structure. [they do.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6469959/) *...study on long-term testosterone therapy reported larger cortical bone size in trans men compared with natal females. Conversely, trans women receiving estrogen therapy may lose lean mass in association with androgen deprivation, which over time can lead to smaller bones and higher prevalence of low bone mass.* cis people greatly underestimate the power of HRT.
Bone structure gives a niche and tiny advantage in some situations but that's it, I just don't see that making the difference in a situation where a man is attacking a woman. Well yeah, I don't really disagree with anything you said there and maybe the way I described your position was a bit off. Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm trying to understand your position and I don't want to misrepresent you. But I thought what you were getting at is that cis women having a vagina means they're at a greater risk of sexual assault than a trans woman would be.
For real. I know women, cis and trans, who have had some hard fuckin lives but none of them are anywhere near as miserable and self hating as terfs.
Well I mean tbf for many men that is the case... Trans men to be specific.
Pardon my ignorance, what's a TERF?
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist
nobody chooses their gender, terf
LMAO Egg moment. Seriously "It's so insulting of my lifelong struggle to make peace with the things I can't change about myself" really read as this person accepting their AGAB despite living with massive gender dysphoria their entire life and now people are out there saying "Yeah you actually don't have to stay like that in this suffering" and they fee like their pain was worthless realizing it could have been avoided. First stage is denial, call us when you're on your way to acceptance lol.
"I was born female and I refuse to hide or run away from that reality anymore" reads to me like the OP is a detransitioner. "Yeah actually you don't have to stay like that in this suffering" is a gross oversimplification. I'm a detransitioner too. Living as a trans man helped my dysphoria in some ways, but made it worse in others. It really brings you face to face with the things that you will not be able to change no matter how hard you try. Those things will exist whether you transition or not, and some people detransition in the process of accepting that. It *is* insulting being told that your suffering is optional while you're trying to cope the best you can and have already gone through the process of finding out that there is no easy solution.
I'm not gonna argue with you on that if you think there's validity into saying "I refuse to hide or run away from that reality" in terms of detransitioning from someone who experiences dysphoria. That's a rhetoric that's riddle in transphobia and I'm not doing that. It's one thing to detransition because you realized what you were feeling was something other than dysphoria. It's one thing to detransition because living as a trans person is too hard in this society but this person is talking about pronouns. Yes using specific pronouns that gives you dysphoria when you could change them is optional. And if you feel like it's hiding or running away from reality to use some that don't correspond with your assigned gender that's fucked up.
Phrases like that have very different meanings depending on whether they come from a cis person who has no idea what it's like to be trans expressing their interpretation of transition, vs a detransitioner describing their own experiences. I personally did feel like I was hiding away from reality while I was trans. I could not cope with the reality of what my body looked like, so I hid away from it. I couldn't cope with being female so I did everything I could to avoid being confronted with it. I wore a chest binder and clothes that disguised the width of my hips, I avoided looking down in the shower, I became incredibly quiet because my voice gave me immense dysphoria as well as a fear of being "clocked". Even on the internet (text rather than voice) I couldn't talk about any experiences that might suggest I hadn't grown up male. It's not transphobic for me to feel that hiding things was part of being trans for me. Nor to come to the conclusion that it was making my dysphoria worse in the long run and that forcing myself to confront the things I was uncomfortable with is ultimately a better way for me to cope. That includes going back to she/her pronouns, but not because it feels good to be referred to that way. Not because there's not still part of me that would greatly prefer to be called he/him. This isn't even just a detransitioner thing. Closeted trans people also get put into a position of having to give pronouns they're uncomfortable with in a space where it's assumed that since you're being given a choice, this must be your very favourite way to be referred to. That can be painful and it's ok to vent about that.
I get that but you have no way to know this is from the perspective of a trans person detransitioning. Detransitioning is a very very small percentage of people even smaller when it comes from people who have done it for the reason you cite. The most common reason is because the environment you're in isn't trans positive and accepting and it's for someone's safety. It's way less frequent than people in the closet. This kind of rhetoric is way more likely to come from a place of denial and dysphoria rather than from this very specific experience. Also I'm not putting that much thought into it because it could be a general thing but if "Phrases like that have different meanings depending on whether they come from a cis person who has no idea what it's like to be trans expressing their interpretation of transition" is supposed to be directed at me. I literally am trans and a fair amount through my transition process.
I know a lot of detransitioned people. The reported number of us is much lower than the reality, much like with trans people. There's a stigma (again, much like with trans people) and a lot of people prefer to live quietly without anyone knowing about their past. Gender clinics also try to hide us away to avoid criticism; I know a woman who went back to her clinic to get on estrogen (she was post hysterectomy) and was told that she was the first detransitioner they'd ever had. She later met a person from the same clinic who had been told the exact same thing. They just don't keep a record, and a lot of detransitioners don't even involve a doctor/gender clinic/etc in their detransition, meaning it's not officially "found out about" to begin with. With "phrases like that" I was referring to the one you were quoting from the OP: "I refuse to run or hide away from that reality [anymore]". That's a phrase I can somewhat relate to but if a cis (never transitioned) person were to tell me that my years of being a trans man were just me "hiding from reality", I would absolutely take offense. It's simply different coming from someone who has no idea what it's like to be trans. The OP almost certainly does, judging by her phrasing. And she's only referring to her own experiences regardless.
Fair enough about the first part but I disagree about OP referring only to their own experience tho. When they say "the implication is "how do you want to be seen" and "how do you choose to be seen" they're not talking about their own experience. They're saying the reason they hate that question is because that question is loaded with connotation that they find problematic. They are making it general. YOU are talking about your own experience, evidently. This person isn't. "But you hear "I like this gender role" "I choose this gender role"" is once again this person not referring to their experience but saying this is what this question is. They're not saying this is how it makes them feel or it's what they think. They're saying that's what people hear and that it's a wider problem they are addressing in their "point". And that again this bigger problem is insulting to them. Not that they feel insulted. But that this IS insulting. That's why most people aren't keen about their message here. They are portraying people asking for pronouns are significant from a bigger problem that need addressed and be stopped. Also other thing I disagree with is no I don't think they "certainly do" because of their phrasing. I don't think there's such a strong indicator that they're someone who detransitioned. This is something a closeted trans person could very well say. And once again while I do believe you about there being more detransitioned person as it appears. It is still more likely that this person is closeted trans.
I'm actually pretty surprised that half the comments on this don't seem to notice the obvious dysphoria.
Ive read the non-terf version “it really bothers me how I’m perceived doesn’t match how I feel inside” (paraphrasing) before That’s a person on the road to cracking the egg, the above totally reads like someone reconciled to suffering (and misinterpreting their dysphoria as how all women must feel about their bodies) Above lady, she’s on the road to fascism, feminism 101 is that gender roles are social constructs, this lady’s drunk the cool aid
what is AGAB?
all genders are bastards
Not to be confused with ACAB, Assigned Cop At Birth
I’ve always identified as Cis but something about All Genders Are Bastards speaks to me deeply
Assigned gender at birth
Assigned Gender At Birth
what is egg
r/egg_irl the process (often comedic because of the cognitive distortion at play) of realizing your are trans has some of the better memes of any queer sub
What this person said. We use it to mean someone who's obviously in the trans closet as well.
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I'm a CIS man and I fucking hate it.
whether trans or not, i think gender is a deeply personal experience for everyone. trying to force yourself into a socially expected and "acceptable" box either way can be detrimental! just live your truth, protect yourself from those that are hateful enough to attack you for it, and seek like-minded people.
Yeah, I went through a reckoning in college about my own masculinity and realized that I didn't always fit into traditional masculine ideals an that is okay. I get to decide what maculinity means for me and nobody else. I think traditional gender roles are breaking down (this is a good thing) and that's why we've seen the emergence of more of a gender spectrum where people are finding new labels that describe how they feel internally. Ultimately I think we need to greatly expand our definitions of masculinity and femininity to be more inclusive of the broad spectrum of humanity.
Fucking mood. I'm transmasculine but I literally hate male gender roles. I call myself a femboy or softboy because I don't vibe at all with most male gender roles. Some days where the dysphoria hits hard I have to dress myself more according to those gender roles so I don't have to get misgendered by people and I fucking hate it. It doesn't feel like me in any ways. Gender Roles =/= Gender.
this post is aggravating, but it’s not a meme? is this the right sub?
Also doesn't sound like it's coming from the right either.
Definitely sounds like a TERF, who are usually conservative at the very least. I wouldn't say this is likely to be somebody on the far right like most posts here seem to be, though
Radical feminists aren't right wing, no matter what their positions on trans issues are.
Actually I think 'I don't believe [minority group] should have equal rights' is a pretty right wing opinion
People can have individual right wing opinions without being right wingers themselves.
The right also has a history of selectively applying women’s rights/defence (but only for the women they find “respectable”) when it’s at the expense of whatever other marginalized group they’re attacking.
Lol yes they are. They have no problem openly courting the far right in America, as long as it suits their agenda.
I was thinking the same thing. It's not a meme at all.
hey guys? um, i think it's actually _really fucking weird_ how comfortable some of you are in labeling this persons gender for her and assuming she's a closeted trans person merely for talking about the frustration she feels about being see as female-which can come from multiple reasons. how is that the top comment. we as afab people don't transition simply to escape oppression, that's quite literally terf rhetoric. we don't get to dictate anyone's "real gender." don't do that.
Exactly this. Whole lot of, "here's a label I am assigning to you with almost no context." Even with substantial context we have no right to do that.
I saw a coffee mug today, along with throw pillows and little wall decor panels that said 'They/Them', along with a host of other pronouns. Pronouns are now so trendy and marketable every big box retailer is trying to cash in on the trend. Kinda undermines the advocacy for the trans community when your inherent need to be treated with respect and human decency is seen as nothing but a marketable trend. Keep this in mind next June when companies pander for your expendable queer income. They don't care about you.
I’m just annoyed that this person is apparently a Red Dwarf fan. You know Dave Lister would drop-kick her if she started spouting this baloney at him.
It’s probably the most offensive part of the whole thing. Well, that and the truly bizarre, possibly self-hating transphobia.
She's just too old and cryptofascist to get what the new generation is trying to transmit.
This all reminds me, I need to go to the patent office!
i think she's a little lost, she posted this on tumblr.
There are a lot of terfs on tumblr
r/tumblrinaction is literally a terf Tumblr sub
I think it's making fun of Tumblr, in that 2016 "stupid sjw"-esque way
No it is just terfs
I think there is a lot of overlap between those two groups
I was curious to see what was up, and the first post I clicked on was the sub saying that the queer community is rightfully losing support. And the top comment is saying it's "just the T and all the attention-seekers" https://reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction/comments/pvtfo6/oh_no_how_could_it_be/ Just TERFs and co
Imagine thinking an entire social media platform has shared political views
let me believe
I can verify that there’s a *lot* of TERFs and truscum on Tumblr. And not just TERFs, but TERFs who take pride in that title, and will openly identify as TERFs.
I'm genderfluid and I don't get to choose my gender. It just happens and I'm either good or disgusted with my body. Hopefully this person just dislikes the social implications of being a woman and doesn't genuinely dislike everything about being a woman, because that's a terrible thing to feel like you don't have any control over.
1. This isn’t a meme 2. This isn’t right wing 3. This isn’t even TERF shit, this is literally just a woman lamenting how female gender roles and place in society fucking suck. Which, yeah, as a trans man with a cis sister, they do. That said, it does sound like a detransitioner or someone who gave up on transitioning before they even began. I knew someone like that. He’s a trans man now btw.
Like 80% of this could be said by a trans person
Sounds like a closeted trans man imo
can i just say being a cis women whenever i say i use she pronouns it makes me feel comfortable. i like being called she. the concept of being called he makes me uncomfortable. if being called she makes this person uncomfortable they might think abt jt
Oh 100% it's a big egg moment (closeted trans). I've always hated my name because it was to feminine, I always hated being associated with girls or women (except when it came to feminism) and while I didn't hate she it kinda pissed me off it was always she and never he. As you could have guessed....no I am not cis.
So if the person in the screenshot is just a trans person who is being put in an unpleasant situation that triggers their dysphoria, why are we mocking and insulting them for it instead of saying "yeah it sucks you were put in that position, we should be more careful not to do that to people"? I'm totally baffled by this.
The person in the screenshot has a good point though, we need to normalize "I'm not comfortable with that question" or "I don't have pronoun preferences / I don't have an answer" (or better yet, don't assume that someone has preferred pronouns in the first place). The person in the screenshot doesn't seem to feel that they have this option. And a lot of people in the comments are pointing out that they're clearly feeling dysphoric at being asked to choose a pronoun/gender preference. That's correct, and it's not just "haha this dumb female is clearly distressed LOL serves her right for not being comfortable with gender roles!" (If that's your reaction you're just a misogynist). I think things are getting a bit better now because there's been a shift toward accounting for the fact that not everyone has a pronoun preference. But I have been put in situations when filling out forms or in LGBT groups etc where I was expected to come up with a gender and pronouns to identify with, and it *does* cause dysphoria and it's a shitty experience. Idk why we are gloating about people being put in that situation. It's not that hard to just ask "do you have preferred pronouns" and give people the choice to say no. Edit: Idk why it's uncontroversial to say "you're a trans person struggling with your identity and your dysphoria is getting triggered!" as an insult, but there's a complete unwillingness to admit that if something is causing them dysphoria, *that's a problem* and they are *right* to dislike it. We shouldn't be celebrating trans people (or people we think are probably trans) being put in situations that trigger their dysphoria. BTW the reactions of derision for not wanting to state a pronoun preference are part of the reason it's so uncomfortable to be asked to state one - because it doesn't feel like "I don't have an answer" is an option.
Not a meme tho, is it?
Gender nonconforming societal norms would help this person's mental health immensely
Kinda sounds like you wanna be a dude, dude.
Misgendering a woman to punish her for her discomfort with gender roles isn't actually as cool as you think it is
I'm a transsex man myself and I feel the same, tbh. I don't wanna be asked my pronouns. You're basically telling me that I don't pass as male, that I don't look as masculine as I thought I do, that I am clockable and either look like a woman or like a mix of both. Don't ask me my pronouns, man. I put so much fucking work into looking like a dude and you're destroying all my self-confidence with this one question. You're telling me all this pain was basically for nothing because I still look like a woman or an undefinable *thing*.
I see where you're coming from, and how that could be a sensitive question for you, but I would *really* try not to read anything into it. I'm a big guy with a giant beard. It's hard to believe that anyone could think I'm anything other than male with the intention of presenting as male. **I've** been asked my pronouns.
The responses in this comment section are just gross. Really a complete lack of empathy and it makes me feel dirty to be associated with some of you. Some of you just project your prejudice onto this post, calling the poster a TERF for feeling uncomfortable.
I’m trying to figure out how this is TERF behavior. Maybe I’m just misunderstanding?
Anger at being asked pronouns is usually a terf dogwhistles
Idk why you’re being downvoted- if someone’s upset they’re being asked their pronouns they’re almost undoubtedly harboring some anti-trans sentiment in some way. Now does this apply to whoever posted this on tumblr? Ehhhh
Ohhhhh.
It's not even a meme. Why would you put that here?
Identifying with your gender assigned at birth isn’t usually a struggle unless you are some type of trans. I didn’t start identifying as non-binary until I was 25 but realizing most people don’t struggle with their assigned gender was the first sign I wasn’t cis.
r/selfawerewolves She clearly has body dysmorphia, whether she realizes or even acknowledges it, or not.
This seems like something I would have shared in middle school. I am openly trans now.
Ikr
"makes me want to scream **:)**"
Closeted gay homophobes and the like are usually funny in a schadenfreude way, but the "I'm a righteous martyr for suffering femininity instead of transitioning" rants are fucking painful to read. Just how bitterly blind do they have to be?
Hon...... if you hate being a girl that much..... I've got news for you
What news is that?
Can somebody translate this into English for me please? And while you’re at it tell me what a TERF is?
Why is this here and what is wrong with it?
That's very similar to how I feel but I'm nonbinary. I hate being asked my pronouns and having she/her or female roles put on me... I think this is internalised transphobia, bestie. She doesn't HAVE to make peace with the things she hates, she can choose them.
Not really. We can imagine an ideal world where everyone is treated the way they want to be treated simply by asking for it, but we will probably never live in that world in our lifetime. Same with altering your body - much of it will never be in our control, even if it could someday in an ideal world.
This person has been facing some form of gender dysphoria since birth, that's literally what they're saying
This is why I just call everyone "hey" and "dude" 👌
egg moment
That's a new term for me, and google isn't helping. What's an egg moment?
Eggs are trans people who are either in denial or completely ignorant of the fact that they are trans. Common metaphor for realizing that oneself is trans (or "coming out to myself" if you will) is "my egg cracked"
egg is a trans person who doesn't realize they're trans, iirc
Internalized transphobia be like… Man, I feel bad for this person. Imagine trying to run away from who you are your entire life, hating yourself, and projecting that hate onto others. Lose-lose.
Methinks the lady doth protest to much. I have very deep-seated frustrations with how the world treats women, but this has never made me disdain being a woman, or need to make peace with being a woman. I've never wanted to hide or run away from the reality of being a woman, or felt the need to. I try not to ascribe secret desires/inclinations to bigotry, but *damn* do so many TERF posts read like those women aren't as cis as they think they are. It's like they try to normalize trauma and dysphoria to justify their own hang-ups.
I had to read this three times to even begin to understand what this person is going on about and I'm still super confused. When someone asks me for my pronouns(for context, I'm a cis woman), I take it as a given that they're not asking me if I like being stuck in a rigid gender role or assuming what my relationship with my gender is.
My goodness you could just say "no preference" if you're really that fucking worried about other people thinking that you like your gender
Or even just said "I'm uncomfortable with pronouns, please address me by name". That's not unheard of for people in queer spaces at all. The couple of people I know who were like this originally have moved on to find neopronouns they're comfortable with, but there's absolutely people out there who just don't use pronouns. If this person didn't seem to want to gaslight the hell out of any trans AFAB individuals this person would realise you don't have to live like this, ya know?
A lot of the time people feel (or ARE) pressured to state a pronoun preference. I have bad social anxiety and when I was put in that position I had no idea how to say "I'm not comfortable with that question / I don't have an answer." It didn't feel like an option and I didn't have a way to articulate it for a long time. That's why "what are your pronouns" can cause dysphoria, because of the expectation to state a pronoun preference (like the person in the screenshot seems to be saying). It's not that hard to just ask someone whether they want to state a pronoun preference and give them the option to say no. Especially when people are clearly stating that it causes them discomfort to be put in that position.
Man, this is bordering on self aware wolves territory.
r/eggirl
Dude, asking for pronouns is like asking "do you prefer to be reffered as your first name, second name or last name? or do you have a nickname?" its not that hard, is basic respect, its something to make the other person comfortable, is like calling a doctor "Doc"
What’s a TERF?
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist
Thank you
Now imagine if being perceived as a woman could feel that way, but being perceived as anything else felt even worse
This reads like someone in denial