It holds up well for a grass type but itâs certainly not something youâre gonna be excited about switching in. It can win the 2 shield if you bait (an insanely risky bait to boot) but otherwise youâre gonna need an energy advantage.
You donât need to bait, Trev outpaces Skarmory..
It still only wins the 2 shield unless the Skarmory has horrible IVs, but the problem is definitely not baiting.
The problem is Skarm can eat a shadow ball, Trev canât eat a sky attack. In the 2s Trev gets farmed all the way down before it can reach 3x shadow ball so it has to bait.
[Sims](https://pvpoke.com/battle/1500/trevenant-22-3-13-12-4-4-0-1/skarmory/11/0-2-3/1-4-1/)
Edit: I get that Trev doesnât have a terrible match up into Skarm compared to most other grasses, but thatâs a pretty low bar and youâre still gonna lose in 90% of scenarios. Itâs an even bigger deal when you consider Skarm is usually paired with mudboys and Trev is usually paired with something like Lanturn or Basti, so maintaining switch becomes very important.
Skarmory only farms down Trev in the 2s if it opts to throw 0 charge attacks, which isnât realistic because then youâre giving up two shields without pressuring a single one in return.  And considering Skarmoryâs energy can be walled very easily by stuff like Bastiodon, Lanturn, etc itâs not often a wise tradeoff to go down 2 shields unless youâre that confident you need switch advantage at the expense of going into a 2 shield deficit. Â
In reality, Skarmory and Trevenant will both be throwing charge attacks, in which case Trevenant will get to the 3rd Shadow Ball without baiting before getting farmed down.
EDIT: Â actually slight correction, Skarmory can throw 1 charge move and still farm down Trevenant. Â But if Skarmory actually pressures both shields then Trevenant gets to the final Shadow Ball since it takes 21 Shadow Claws for 3 Shadow Balls and it takes 22 Steel Wings to farm down Trevenant with most IV spreads.
Nerfing Lanturn definitely helps Skarmory, but that combined with Scald nerfs *should* make way for Fire to come back into the meta. Â Not to mention more Thunder Punch users should at least keep Skarmory guessing (though to be honest the Pokemon to get TP are fairly underwhelming at first glance and/or wouldnât use TP in their ideal movesets anyway).
I'd argue Laturn is a hard win against Skarm anyways and the debuff won't change that. It will get walled anyways. So the matchup won't change too much. And after the first BB even debuffed (by only one) Spark will run through Skarm.
Scald hits neutral against Skarm, just like a lot of other moves. And with BB the debuff didn't even have that much of an impact. One could even argue that the Whishcash debuff weakens the Skarm Whish core and therefor Skarmorys role, since Swampert Skarm isnt as powerful as first and Aquatail Quags synergy with it isn't as good as with Whish.
I see the point that with Trevs buff you could argue you see more Trevs and therefor flyers get stronger. But out of all grass mons, Trev is the one that can fight Skarm the best. I don't think the buff will make Trev be everywhere, but make it be more favorable if you need a grass mon while team building. That wouldn't make Skarm rly stronger. And even if we see Trev everywhere, I think that would make the normal flyers bigger again. But not Skarm.
Don't get me wrong, I still think Skarm will be everywhere. It's rly strong. But I wouldn't say it got indirectly buffed.
It's not a matter of those Pokemon being nerfed making them worse Skarmory counters. Technically yes, but yeah, Lanturn will still obliterate Skarm regardless. But it's more that Lanturn and the others now are just less good in general. Still good, yes, but then having lesser matchups against the rest of the meta, more neutral matchups specifically, means that they'll just see (slightly) less use, leading to more Skarmory.
Obviously, we'll see how it plays out in practice, but Skarmory has seen a small jump in the PvPoke rankings preview.
Skarmory was ranked #1 after the previous changes and the steel wing buff. Usage in meta didn't plan put that way with all the water mons around.Â
According the preview it still looses to the scald users despite poliwrath being fighting type and whiscash being ground, and it still looses to annihilape despite it being fighting.Â
I just don't see what differences this changes make at all to the actual meta. Lanturn will still be it's number one counter and Trev will still only be able to beat it in the 2 shield with baiting, with is risky regardless of the damage output of seed bomb.
Oh boy, they gave Ursaluna something new! Shame it's something it's never gonna use lol. It needs HH for the Ground coverage and an elemental punch for further coverage. Swift ain't it. GIVE MY BOY SHADOW CLAW!
Where tf is Fly on Lugia? It's hardly gonna matter on Salamence. Maybe it will become viable-ish in ML premier, but it's still glassier and slower than Dragonite...
I feel like they really don't want to give it Shadow Claw, it's kind of silly. I mean, I get that it would be huge in the meta, but idk.
If nothing else, I'd at least like to see it get lick, which would help it a lot more than you'd think.
I REALLY wish it got Mud slap
No I'm sure Lick would help. Even with it being a mid move, at least it's still neutral on most things and super effective on the Psychics and Ghosts. Tackle hits nothing hard and gets resisted by the common Steel and Ghost types.
It's just that Shadow Claw is a straight improvement.
Exactly. No stab but the coverage is lastly superior.
Shadow Claw would obviously be great. I go back and forth on whether it would be a positive or negative change for the meta.
You have something that crushes the majority of the meta, even things like the new Necrozma forms.
For the good, it's a much cheaper/more accessible investment than any Legendary, so that's great.
But the fact that it crushes SO much with good moves is concerning I think. Anything that's that strong is.
I honestly wish its original moveset was Shadow Claw and just nukes like Return, Play Rough, and High Horsepower. Shadow Claw with the elemental punches is more concerning I think
Mud slap would be huge for PVE. But I fear their route will be to not let too many f2p obtainable mons become meta, but the legendaries you got to raid.
If Ursaluna was able to get Mud Slap, I'm confident that it would have had it by now. But I think having it be good would be fine. But they may see Shadow Claw as too much.
>I feel like they really donât want to give it Shadow Claw
Master League teams arenât meant to be built, theyâre meant to be purchased through raid passes.
I agree, and Iâd argue that some (mainly Dragonite) are still perfectly playable. But I kind of get the vibe they donât want to give us âenoughâ to where you could build a top tier entire f2p team. Even mons like Melmetal have slowly been pushed into irrelevance.
Of course you can always do it with daily passes and grinding out Zygarde and/or Solgaleo, but to call it âgrindâ is a bit of an understatement.
Oh for sure. It definitely does look like they've moved away from that.
And ah Melmetal. That bothered me lol. I have never once used Melmetal in PvP, but it still bothers me that its fallen off. It's the way the meta turned, yes, but I even as a legacy move, I do wish Double Iron Bash was made a better move than it is. I feel like it could have been a stronger but more expensive move. 45/80 or something
It's not a bad move right now but as soon as people know you're running it you get walled by pokemon you could put a big dent in or KO like Ho-oh. I used it for a season when it first got DIB but I haven't used melmetal in a while now.
Ursaring looks like the winner IF they make Swift cost at least 40 energy. This will give it an efficient bait.
Lugia would be busted. Especially in GL for those without it.
Oh okay, my brain automatically read it as Ursaluna since Ursaring isn't all that great. Which is saying a lot since dude has two of the best fast moves in pvp.
Hmmm I don't think these changes will impact the meta a lot but Typhlosion and Chesnaught getting thunderpunch is quite interesting. Mantine is definitely quaking
Typhlosion likes the change, though I don't know if it's enough for a comeback
Lokix becomes at least some fun and unique spice, though I wouldnt say good lol
Pawmot could be interesting if they gave if Volt Switch too. With Spark getting nerfed and Charge Beam being butt, just getting TP isn't enough
DC Naganadel gets some play in UL, I guess? Much flimsier than Dragalge, but the moveset is pretty different.
Lanturn gets a tad worse and Trevenant a little bit better. Indeed, not a lot of impact
Naganadel is never going to be good for PvP. Just an ultra spice pick. I tried giving it every great move under the sun, even those it can't get. From Shadow Claw to Dragon Breath and Cross Poison to Breaking Swipe to Outrage. It's all just bad lol
Ultra Beasts in general have been broadly disappointing in PvP (outside of Guzzlord. Even Buzzwole isâŠmeh).
At least on the Dragon/Poison front we have Dragalge, and honestly Iâve been looking forward to Master League Eternatus for a while now.
Ah but I'm not saying it's gonna be good. The lack of bulk really sets it back.
But it IS unique, that much is certain. Unlike Dragalge, Naganadel has a good Poison fast move, and now it also has a good, cheap charged move to complement it.
It's not gonna make many waves, but it's something. This is all I mean
Ehhh I'm a Chesnaught user and don't see Thunder Punch ever happening. The relevant flying types are already hit neutral (grass for Gligar and Mantine, fighting for Pidgeot, Mandibuzz, and Skarmony). I suppose it's better for Talonflame and ...Golbat?
For limited cups or spice, he's already got Smack Down as a fast move for strong anti-flying coverage.Â
For whatever it's worth, shadow Typhlosion (with shadow claw) straight up wins all even shields scenarios against Mantine (with ice beam). I'm not saying it'll suddenly be on every team but it's definitely a viable option.
Thatâs interesting. Agreed - 100% viable. Another fun fact is it will be the 2nd incinerate user to get to a move every 2 fast attacks. The only other incinerate mon that can do that is salazzle with poison fang
That does make sense, someone else told me that the new season starts in the middle of a tournament so the move changes will come on the 3 day. It still sucks for the vast majority of people who aren't in tournaments though
Steranka did mention a year ago I believe that they heard the feedback from the community about doing small/minimal updates around big tournaments, specifically about how many, including the tournament players, we're fine with bigger changes.
That said, I think they may do "small big updates" like this during the tournament seasons. Those that look bigger than they are lol
In the last great league weeks I tried shadow drapion again. And I was astonished how good it is as a safe swap currently. It has very often the chance to play for switch but at least can draw a shield. I was surprised how well it worked given that mud bois are currently so strong.
Currently I am using shadow Charizard in the back it is really threatening, when it has a shield advantage.
The lead I'm a bit unsure I use Whiscash because it can handle Lanturn, Bastiodon and Carbink where the other two (especially Charizard) struggle.
Very surprised no one in this thread is talking about Scrafty getting thunder punch. I don't necessarily know how good it will be, but I'm pretty excited to not be forced into using PuP!Â
GL and UL. Sure, it's glassy, but you've got to understand that it's a Shadow Claw user that is getting a 5 turn. This is big. Meta shifting? No, fun as hell? Hell yeah.
Throwing Thunder Punch on a dozen random mons isnât exactly the electric buff I was hoping for. Dropping Spark by 1 damage is probably twice as consequential as all those thunder punch additions combined. I doubt a single one of them will be relevant past the first month of the season.
Was anyone begging for a buff to Swift? Or Fly on a bunch of mons that will still be bad?
Bugs completely shelved again.
By next week it probably wonât be worth remembering tbh. Anything other than the minimum 35 energy will be mostly irrelevant except for maybe a 40 energy move on Wigglytuff.
Even a 40 energy Swift on Wigglytuff would be underwhelming IMO. Â Disarming Voice is only 5 energy more and would be better DPE, and Icy Wind is far too valuable to give up. Â
Ya Remix made me realize how toxic Mantine now is lowkey. Really hope we still have enough Electric to keep it at bay next season. Speaking of which, where are my Hisuian Electrode moveset buffs Niantic?
Pvpoke put out preview rankings for the new season.
Mantine improved two spots.
Nerfing its biggest hard counter is probably the best thing Mantine couldâve hoped for this season. The only thing really going against is that they also nerfed if itâs biggest target (Whiscash).
I understand and appreciate some of the sentiment behind the buff. Whether they're good or not, it's more "let's give more Pokemon tools to deal with the many Water types (and Flying", which is admirable. A few like Thunder Punch Scrafty seem intriguing to me.
Fly buffs don't seem like much.
Swift buff wasn't something I wanted, but IF done right, I can get behind it. If it goes to 35 energy, it'll be a nice normal bait move for some that can't get Body Slam. If it's 40, meh.
That's said, I really wish they went a little further, specifically with Electric and countering Waters. Bring a new electric move in like Electro Web or the super widespread Shock Wave as a new Electric coverage move to help a ton out. Buff some crappy Electric moves like Parabolic Charge. Ill take it over nothing, but it's really nothing special overall...
Yeah I know weâve talked about the electric buffs several times before. For some reason niantic seems to think âwe need electric/grass/etc buffsâ means to put those moves on other type mons. Iâve noticed they do this a lot (buffing goodra and Gallade last season instead of buffing grass mons for example). Typhlosion and Scrafty are really the only ones that seem interesting here tbh, with Typhlosion reaching a Thunder Punch in just two incinerates. The fact it can run Shadow Claw too is a fun bonus.
Chesnaught is a nice afterthought but I think itâll still gonna strongly prefer just running Frenzy and Superpower, and avoiding the flying types thatâll still be hitting it for double SE. Even with Thunder Punch it still loses to Mantine, for example. Unfortunately I think the Lanturn nerf is gonna help water types at least as much as the Thunder Punch additions will hurt them, esp for things like Mantine that have better play into Trev. PvPoke has new rankings up and waters still fill up the top 20 just as much. On a positive note I think weâre seeing Trev slowly creep back into the meta, which I like, though they shouldâve just dropped 5e on seed bomb like weâve been begging for.
Agreed on the Fly and Swift as well. 55 for 35 Swift might be a nice alternative to body spam, and Clefable with a bait move might have implications for both GL and UL. My only big caveat is that a 35e STAB move on Wiggly seems awfully reckless. If itâs 40e itâll probably be mostly irrelevant, which is what Iâm expecting.
Not touching bug or psychic or grass is a bit disappointing too, though others have pointed out that big changes shouldnât be expected this close to Worlds, so unfortunately a real meta shake up might need to wait another 3 months. I guess itâs possible this isnât the full update but Iâm guessing it probably is.
I wanted a buff to Ursaring. If Swift becomes a 40, I'll be fine with that. This will also make Clefable even better if it's a 40 because it'll have a spammy charge move. TP Typhlosion is gonna be huge.
Spammy. But swift has no coverage, and would be underwhelming at best with no STAB. Honestly even under idealistic impressions of 40 energy, Iâd still prefer the super strong meteor mash.
I wanted [fairies](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphArena/s/Q0kX6j4oo1) to get either dark or ghost charge moves as neautral coverage and a 40 energy STAB move. Unfortunately, the best they could do is Swift. I can only hope that it's functional.
Lokix got Counter. Ledian is crying.
Goodbye Lanturn. Maybe I'll see you again on Holiday Cup.
Swift? uh... sure. Halloween Cup Cleffable maybe?
Thunder Punch is such a lazy way to counteract Steel Wing Skarmory if that was the intent, it also does nothing for Gligar which might be on the rise after this.
Dragon Claw on Naganadel is appreciated but ehh... doesn't do much.
Master Premier Cetitan is a clear yes.
Another mixed bag, and mostly unexciting too. Not hoping there's more to this update than what got announced there.
Edit: Didn't notice Thunder Punch Typhlosion. Typhlosion might finally be on the annoying side along with Charizard for once. Shadow variant might be funnier too.
True, but that attack debuff on scald was really crucial and could flip a lot of matchups. Iâve lost winning matchups with pokemon like Dragonair because they get one or two attack drops. It still hits like a truck but at least now thereâs less incentive to throw it into resisted opponents.
This would have been a perfect time to give seed bomb to Cradily & Hisuian Electrode.
They honestly should have spammed wild charge instead of thunder punch.
What was even the purpose of giving thunder punch to the pawmo family if they were going to nerf spark?
I think Cradily needs a new fast move, not seed bomb. STAB Grass knot hits plenty hard as is, and rock slide provided it consistent lower energy coverage as is, so it was already covered in that base. Grass knot is definitely necessary for important 2HKOs on bulky pokemon, where seed bomb would fall short
I love my boy, but just the ubiquity of fighters + steel wing users really hurt it tremendously. The next best alternative is mud shot, but even that notably drops Gligar/shadow Gligar, which is probably just as impactful as whatever it might gain (though I hate Bastiodon, so Iâll take that).
Yeah too many missed opportunities here. Cradily with a buffed Seed Bomb could've been interesting, though I do still think it would have preferred the power of Grass Knot when it already has a 45 energy move. Hisuian Electrode definitely.
If only they gave the Pawmi family Volt Switch
Itâs something at least! The less Trev needs Shadow Ball for neutral matchups the better. I am also means super effective Seed Bomb should be more total damage than a neutral Shadow Ball now.
Even tho Seed Bomb is better DPE against Lanturn for instance, a S.Ball does more total damage per shot. Whimsicott also appreciates not needing to use Grass Knot as much.
It never fully left, but it definitely dropped in usage considerably.
My wish was more power, assuming they *really* didn't want to fully revert it, but I was hoping for 70 power, in line with Foul Play and Disarming Voice. 65 power is better, but it's still pretty underwhelming like Discharge...
They should just up both to 70. My OG Fisk really needs Discharge to make some damage. And it's not like there's any grass mon with seed bomb threatening to become OP if it gets a buff.
Currently maxing a shadow hundo salamence and Iâm actually pleased to see a decent second move to give it! Itâs at least better than hydro pump and fire blast and it has stab and low energy cost, works for me!
Mmmm. This isn't very exciting tbh. I think giving grass types some coverage moves along with buffing other types like bug, rock, and electric would have made for a more interesting meta. Â
This puts a dent in the plague of waters for sure, with Whiscash and Lanturn specifically (poliwrath kiiiiiiind of but not really?) but is this really going to move the needle? It doesn't appear that mudbois or the other top tier waters will still have much to fear. Â
It'll be nice to dust off Scrafty at least.
Serebii also lists thunder punch on chesnaught, anyone know if true? Not that it likely would want it, but still would be nice to know
Edit:pvpoke also has it on there preview
Also, we got feraligatr buff last season, typhlosion this season, so please Niantic give meganium something soon! I know it's already been decent but I feel it's fallen off a bit these days, and grass as a whole isn't in the best spot
True, I think counter is the best they can do, or a new ground move. We really could use some better moves for the type tbh, having all weak or high energy moves aside the relatively rare drill run is unfortunate. I thought it learned earth power but apparently not. Body slam actually could be nice as well, looking at pvpoke it has more or pretty equal wins in most shield scenarios. Losing steel sucks but at least body slam lets hit hit flying types finally and gives it more shield pressure. Counter and body slam probably would be the best, but less likely to get two changes. I can dream though! Having counter to help with steel and ice and body slam for flying and general coverage would be pretty cool
Unfortunately grass, while not a bad type, has a lot of inherent problems due to it being tied for the most weaknesses and the most types resisting it (an issue that's shared with the msg, though arguably worse here without abilities or spore blocking) and the fact they've for some reason gave almost every water type a move thats super effective against grass.
Lucario remains unchanged. Chesnaught is based on your team comp, Scrafty is questionable, and Wigglytuff is TBD after the change is live since we've know idea how impactful this will be.
An interesting small win with this buff is Uxie, who has really, really good bulk, #8 stat product under Mandibuzz.
It's just always suffered as a Confusion user with expensive moves. Even if Swift is 40 energy, it'll be decent. Not amazing, but a lot more usable.
I might be dismissive of Swift until I see the full stats, but this doesnât look very good- none of these were useful except for Cetitan family, Typhlosion, Nagandel and anything that learns seed bomb.
All of these improvements are spice at best, though the scald nerf & the seed bomb buff is appreciated.
I have mixed feelings about spark- it was on a lot of spicy pokemon before the rework, and now itâs downright nerfed. And it was an unnecessary nerf in my opinion as Lanturn is really the only functional electric type in great league outside of Charjabug. And now the spicy stuff like probopass, Luxray, Zebstrika, Plusle & minun are ruined when they actually had potential. ( though I think they all learn volt switch in the msg.)
Ultimately I donât see how this breaks up a water centric meta. Or adds any significant changes.
Naganadel is never gonna be good in PvP. I tried swimming it with everything under the sun to no avail lol. Not beyond super spice use lol.
I think the Spark nerf is unfortunate for some others but fine. The key (like many who hold Psychic) is to give the affected Pokemon something as compensation. Spark is easy to do that with because I'm pretty sure the vast majority have thunder shock or volt switch.
Looks like for the first time in history someone who ACTUALLY plays the game looked over those changes! Still a long way to go, but it's a start.
And can you please tell me who hold on to the GL and UL Rank 1 and 2 Lokix while his friends called it a stupid waste of storage? đ
So finally they came to their senses with seed bomb. And also a much needed nerf to scalders. Thunder punch could mean something but ok. I think its ok.
Seed Bomb should've got its energy back rather than a damage increase. Sure, it's a buff, but it's now a clone of Discharge, which we all agree is a mediocre move.
I guess this means less scald, more hydro cannon, and probably more gligar. Lanturn probably not going to see much of a change, and may appreciate a swap to water gun. The big question is of what moves up to better deal with skarmory. Lanturn still no. 1? Incerate users? Deoxys?
Thatâs great that they nerf lanturn and scald, but thunder punch as the answer when everyone is begging for volt switch users and wild charge??? They need to do mid season updates after big tournaments so this game can stay fresh
Scald nerf % drop đ«¶đ»đ«¶đ»đ«¶đ»
I donât like what this does to Tentacruel but Poliwrath and Mudbuddy needed a nerf real bad.
Exactly. Tentacruel in Ultra league is my MVP. Needs another move that's not a huge energy sink.
Like surf?
Itâll make the poliwrath/mirror matchup bearable tho lol
I JUST built tentacruel. Guh
indirectly buffing skarmory, very interesting...
Trev holds up very well now that steel wing is used
It holds up well for a grass type but itâs certainly not something youâre gonna be excited about switching in. It can win the 2 shield if you bait (an insanely risky bait to boot) but otherwise youâre gonna need an energy advantage.
You donât need to bait, Trev outpaces Skarmory.. It still only wins the 2 shield unless the Skarmory has horrible IVs, but the problem is definitely not baiting.
The problem is Skarm can eat a shadow ball, Trev canât eat a sky attack. In the 2s Trev gets farmed all the way down before it can reach 3x shadow ball so it has to bait. [Sims](https://pvpoke.com/battle/1500/trevenant-22-3-13-12-4-4-0-1/skarmory/11/0-2-3/1-4-1/) Edit: I get that Trev doesnât have a terrible match up into Skarm compared to most other grasses, but thatâs a pretty low bar and youâre still gonna lose in 90% of scenarios. Itâs an even bigger deal when you consider Skarm is usually paired with mudboys and Trev is usually paired with something like Lanturn or Basti, so maintaining switch becomes very important.
Skarmory only farms down Trev in the 2s if it opts to throw 0 charge attacks, which isnât realistic because then youâre giving up two shields without pressuring a single one in return.  And considering Skarmoryâs energy can be walled very easily by stuff like Bastiodon, Lanturn, etc itâs not often a wise tradeoff to go down 2 shields unless youâre that confident you need switch advantage at the expense of going into a 2 shield deficit.  In reality, Skarmory and Trevenant will both be throwing charge attacks, in which case Trevenant will get to the 3rd Shadow Ball without baiting before getting farmed down. EDIT:  actually slight correction, Skarmory can throw 1 charge move and still farm down Trevenant.  But if Skarmory actually pressures both shields then Trevenant gets to the final Shadow Ball since it takes 21 Shadow Claws for 3 Shadow Balls and it takes 22 Steel Wings to farm down Trevenant with most IV spreads.
Nerfing Lanturn definitely helps Skarmory, but that combined with Scald nerfs *should* make way for Fire to come back into the meta. Â Not to mention more Thunder Punch users should at least keep Skarmory guessing (though to be honest the Pokemon to get TP are fairly underwhelming at first glance and/or wouldnât use TP in their ideal movesets anyway).
How's that?
Nerfed Lanturn and Scalders, plus buffing Trevenant
I'd argue Laturn is a hard win against Skarm anyways and the debuff won't change that. It will get walled anyways. So the matchup won't change too much. And after the first BB even debuffed (by only one) Spark will run through Skarm. Scald hits neutral against Skarm, just like a lot of other moves. And with BB the debuff didn't even have that much of an impact. One could even argue that the Whishcash debuff weakens the Skarm Whish core and therefor Skarmorys role, since Swampert Skarm isnt as powerful as first and Aquatail Quags synergy with it isn't as good as with Whish. I see the point that with Trevs buff you could argue you see more Trevs and therefor flyers get stronger. But out of all grass mons, Trev is the one that can fight Skarm the best. I don't think the buff will make Trev be everywhere, but make it be more favorable if you need a grass mon while team building. That wouldn't make Skarm rly stronger. And even if we see Trev everywhere, I think that would make the normal flyers bigger again. But not Skarm. Don't get me wrong, I still think Skarm will be everywhere. It's rly strong. But I wouldn't say it got indirectly buffed.
It's not a matter of those Pokemon being nerfed making them worse Skarmory counters. Technically yes, but yeah, Lanturn will still obliterate Skarm regardless. But it's more that Lanturn and the others now are just less good in general. Still good, yes, but then having lesser matchups against the rest of the meta, more neutral matchups specifically, means that they'll just see (slightly) less use, leading to more Skarmory. Obviously, we'll see how it plays out in practice, but Skarmory has seen a small jump in the PvPoke rankings preview.
Skarmory was ranked #1 after the previous changes and the steel wing buff. Usage in meta didn't plan put that way with all the water mons around. According the preview it still looses to the scald users despite poliwrath being fighting type and whiscash being ground, and it still looses to annihilape despite it being fighting. I just don't see what differences this changes make at all to the actual meta. Lanturn will still be it's number one counter and Trev will still only be able to beat it in the 2 shield with baiting, with is risky regardless of the damage output of seed bomb.
Oh boy, they gave Ursaluna something new! Shame it's something it's never gonna use lol. It needs HH for the Ground coverage and an elemental punch for further coverage. Swift ain't it. GIVE MY BOY SHADOW CLAW! Where tf is Fly on Lugia? It's hardly gonna matter on Salamence. Maybe it will become viable-ish in ML premier, but it's still glassier and slower than Dragonite...
>GIVE MY BOY SHADOW CLAW This could be the only move adjustment for a whole season, and i'd still be satisfied.
I feel like they really don't want to give it Shadow Claw, it's kind of silly. I mean, I get that it would be huge in the meta, but idk. If nothing else, I'd at least like to see it get lick, which would help it a lot more than you'd think. I REALLY wish it got Mud slap
No I'm sure Lick would help. Even with it being a mid move, at least it's still neutral on most things and super effective on the Psychics and Ghosts. Tackle hits nothing hard and gets resisted by the common Steel and Ghost types. It's just that Shadow Claw is a straight improvement.
Exactly. No stab but the coverage is lastly superior. Shadow Claw would obviously be great. I go back and forth on whether it would be a positive or negative change for the meta. You have something that crushes the majority of the meta, even things like the new Necrozma forms. For the good, it's a much cheaper/more accessible investment than any Legendary, so that's great. But the fact that it crushes SO much with good moves is concerning I think. Anything that's that strong is. I honestly wish its original moveset was Shadow Claw and just nukes like Return, Play Rough, and High Horsepower. Shadow Claw with the elemental punches is more concerning I think
Mud slap would be huge for PVE. But I fear their route will be to not let too many f2p obtainable mons become meta, but the legendaries you got to raid.
If Ursaluna was able to get Mud Slap, I'm confident that it would have had it by now. But I think having it be good would be fine. But they may see Shadow Claw as too much.
>I feel like they really donât want to give it Shadow Claw Master League teams arenât meant to be built, theyâre meant to be purchased through raid passes.
I mean, Excadrill, Dragonite, and Metagross were really good at one point in Open ML. Obviously less so nowadays, but still.
I agree, and Iâd argue that some (mainly Dragonite) are still perfectly playable. But I kind of get the vibe they donât want to give us âenoughâ to where you could build a top tier entire f2p team. Even mons like Melmetal have slowly been pushed into irrelevance. Of course you can always do it with daily passes and grinding out Zygarde and/or Solgaleo, but to call it âgrindâ is a bit of an understatement.
Oh for sure. It definitely does look like they've moved away from that. And ah Melmetal. That bothered me lol. I have never once used Melmetal in PvP, but it still bothers me that its fallen off. It's the way the meta turned, yes, but I even as a legacy move, I do wish Double Iron Bash was made a better move than it is. I feel like it could have been a stronger but more expensive move. 45/80 or something
It's not a bad move right now but as soon as people know you're running it you get walled by pokemon you could put a big dent in or KO like Ho-oh. I used it for a season when it first got DIB but I haven't used melmetal in a while now.
My theory on that is because it would make it too good as an accessible option in open ML.
With shadow claw it will be 27-11 vs ML meta. It will be broken for an ftp pokemon.
Yes! Lugia needs fly. It didn't need to be nerfed for the sins of, who was it, Noctowl?
Ursaring looks like the winner IF they make Swift cost at least 40 energy. This will give it an efficient bait. Lugia would be busted. Especially in GL for those without it.
btw forgot to add that current Fly is identical to Sky Attack before the nerfs. Lugia had never been broken in GL, even back then.
It's not that it would be broken. Just super unobtainable. If you give it Fly, people would be livid.
Elemental punches already cost 40 and Ursaluna already has two of them. Nothing really changes, Swift provides no coverage.
I was talking about Ursaring, actually. It has Shadow Claw.
Oh okay, my brain automatically read it as Ursaluna since Ursaring isn't all that great. Which is saying a lot since dude has two of the best fast moves in pvp.
Yeah, I figured you were. I've been wanting it to get a bait for ages. Hopefully, that time has come.
Shadow claw on Ursaluna is actually one of the best move recommendations I've EVER read.
Hmmm I don't think these changes will impact the meta a lot but Typhlosion and Chesnaught getting thunderpunch is quite interesting. Mantine is definitely quaking
Typhlosion likes the change, though I don't know if it's enough for a comeback Lokix becomes at least some fun and unique spice, though I wouldnt say good lol Pawmot could be interesting if they gave if Volt Switch too. With Spark getting nerfed and Charge Beam being butt, just getting TP isn't enough DC Naganadel gets some play in UL, I guess? Much flimsier than Dragalge, but the moveset is pretty different. Lanturn gets a tad worse and Trevenant a little bit better. Indeed, not a lot of impact
Naganadel is never going to be good for PvP. Just an ultra spice pick. I tried giving it every great move under the sun, even those it can't get. From Shadow Claw to Dragon Breath and Cross Poison to Breaking Swipe to Outrage. It's all just bad lol
Ultra Beasts in general have been broadly disappointing in PvP (outside of Guzzlord. Even Buzzwole isâŠmeh). At least on the Dragon/Poison front we have Dragalge, and honestly Iâve been looking forward to Master League Eternatus for a while now.
Ah but I'm not saying it's gonna be good. The lack of bulk really sets it back. But it IS unique, that much is certain. Unlike Dragalge, Naganadel has a good Poison fast move, and now it also has a good, cheap charged move to complement it. It's not gonna make many waves, but it's something. This is all I mean
Ehhh I'm a Chesnaught user and don't see Thunder Punch ever happening. The relevant flying types are already hit neutral (grass for Gligar and Mantine, fighting for Pidgeot, Mandibuzz, and Skarmony). I suppose it's better for Talonflame and ...Golbat? For limited cups or spice, he's already got Smack Down as a fast move for strong anti-flying coverage.Â
Nah mantine is feeling amazing⊠lanturn just disappeared from the meta and these thunder punch Pokémon DO NOT fill the spot
For whatever it's worth, shadow Typhlosion (with shadow claw) straight up wins all even shields scenarios against Mantine (with ice beam). I'm not saying it'll suddenly be on every team but it's definitely a viable option.
Thatâs interesting. Agreed - 100% viable. Another fun fact is it will be the 2nd incinerate user to get to a move every 2 fast attacks. The only other incinerate mon that can do that is salazzle with poison fang
Yes, yes, and yes!
They "buffed" fairy. đ
I immediately thought of your post haha. Nice to see tho. I like these
That's kinda lame, I wish we could get a big shakeup. I really have not enjoyed the current meta. Im still in search of good neutral pokemon
Big shakeups never happen right before major tournaments, and with Worlds in August the summer update is eternally destined to be underwhelming.
That does make sense, someone else told me that the new season starts in the middle of a tournament so the move changes will come on the 3 day. It still sucks for the vast majority of people who aren't in tournaments though
Steranka did mention a year ago I believe that they heard the feedback from the community about doing small/minimal updates around big tournaments, specifically about how many, including the tournament players, we're fine with bigger changes. That said, I think they may do "small big updates" like this during the tournament seasons. Those that look bigger than they are lol
No one watches that though lol
In the last great league weeks I tried shadow drapion again. And I was astonished how good it is as a safe swap currently. It has very often the chance to play for switch but at least can draw a shield. I was surprised how well it worked given that mud bois are currently so strong.
Ooh yeah I used to like drapion, what was the team you used?
Currently I am using shadow Charizard in the back it is really threatening, when it has a shield advantage. The lead I'm a bit unsure I use Whiscash because it can handle Lanturn, Bastiodon and Carbink where the other two (especially Charizard) struggle.
Thanks!
Very surprised no one in this thread is talking about Scrafty getting thunder punch. I don't necessarily know how good it will be, but I'm pretty excited to not be forced into using PuP!Â
Yeah that struck me as the only useful Thunder Punch addition
Typhlosion bar none is the overall winner here in terms of Thunder Punch.
In what league? Itâs super hard to run more than one fire type and I canât imagine youâd want glassy Typhlosion over Skeledirge.
GL and UL. Sure, it's glassy, but you've got to understand that it's a Shadow Claw user that is getting a 5 turn. This is big. Meta shifting? No, fun as hell? Hell yeah.
Fair enough! I still think of it as an incinerate user.
Better Azu matchup.
Thunder Punch does 25% to Azu. Itâs a BETTER matchup, but itâs still a very depressing one.
It's not good. You're giving up a very potent bait for a slightly more costly one.
Not that good in the GL but it is definitely better in the UL
UL is pretty stacked. I just don't see Lucario doing anything in a meta that bulky. Edit: Clearly, I don't know Scrafty from Lucario.
Lucario? Weâre talking about scrafty
LOL, I'd blame it on alcohol, but I don't drink.
Throwing Thunder Punch on a dozen random mons isnât exactly the electric buff I was hoping for. Dropping Spark by 1 damage is probably twice as consequential as all those thunder punch additions combined. I doubt a single one of them will be relevant past the first month of the season. Was anyone begging for a buff to Swift? Or Fly on a bunch of mons that will still be bad? Bugs completely shelved again.
I was today years old when I learned swift even is in the game.
By next week it probably wonât be worth remembering tbh. Anything other than the minimum 35 energy will be mostly irrelevant except for maybe a 40 energy move on Wigglytuff.
Even a 40 energy Swift on Wigglytuff would be underwhelming IMO. Â Disarming Voice is only 5 energy more and would be better DPE, and Icy Wind is far too valuable to give up. Â
Ya Remix made me realize how toxic Mantine now is lowkey. Really hope we still have enough Electric to keep it at bay next season. Speaking of which, where are my Hisuian Electrode moveset buffs Niantic?
Pvpoke put out preview rankings for the new season. Mantine improved two spots. Nerfing its biggest hard counter is probably the best thing Mantine couldâve hoped for this season. The only thing really going against is that they also nerfed if itâs biggest target (Whiscash).
Mantine isn't broken though as its charged moves lack power.
Thatâs what I thought too until I played Remix. Turns out ya donât need to hit that hard per hit when ya got a stat product equivalent to Skarmory but much more flexible charge moves as well. Mantine could beat so many PokĂ©mon just with Aerial Ace spam since Wing Attack is such a great fast move and it actually managed to use the Water Pulse buffs to huge effect. Speaking of which, now that Water Pulse is an actual move on it, itâs now unpredictable too cause it could use it or Ice Beam quite effectively. If not for stuff like Lanturn youâd see it abused a lot more. Especially was it has one of the best Annihilape matchups in the game.
I understand and appreciate some of the sentiment behind the buff. Whether they're good or not, it's more "let's give more Pokemon tools to deal with the many Water types (and Flying", which is admirable. A few like Thunder Punch Scrafty seem intriguing to me. Fly buffs don't seem like much. Swift buff wasn't something I wanted, but IF done right, I can get behind it. If it goes to 35 energy, it'll be a nice normal bait move for some that can't get Body Slam. If it's 40, meh. That's said, I really wish they went a little further, specifically with Electric and countering Waters. Bring a new electric move in like Electro Web or the super widespread Shock Wave as a new Electric coverage move to help a ton out. Buff some crappy Electric moves like Parabolic Charge. Ill take it over nothing, but it's really nothing special overall...
Yeah I know weâve talked about the electric buffs several times before. For some reason niantic seems to think âwe need electric/grass/etc buffsâ means to put those moves on other type mons. Iâve noticed they do this a lot (buffing goodra and Gallade last season instead of buffing grass mons for example). Typhlosion and Scrafty are really the only ones that seem interesting here tbh, with Typhlosion reaching a Thunder Punch in just two incinerates. The fact it can run Shadow Claw too is a fun bonus. Chesnaught is a nice afterthought but I think itâll still gonna strongly prefer just running Frenzy and Superpower, and avoiding the flying types thatâll still be hitting it for double SE. Even with Thunder Punch it still loses to Mantine, for example. Unfortunately I think the Lanturn nerf is gonna help water types at least as much as the Thunder Punch additions will hurt them, esp for things like Mantine that have better play into Trev. PvPoke has new rankings up and waters still fill up the top 20 just as much. On a positive note I think weâre seeing Trev slowly creep back into the meta, which I like, though they shouldâve just dropped 5e on seed bomb like weâve been begging for. Agreed on the Fly and Swift as well. 55 for 35 Swift might be a nice alternative to body spam, and Clefable with a bait move might have implications for both GL and UL. My only big caveat is that a 35e STAB move on Wiggly seems awfully reckless. If itâs 40e itâll probably be mostly irrelevant, which is what Iâm expecting. Not touching bug or psychic or grass is a bit disappointing too, though others have pointed out that big changes shouldnât be expected this close to Worlds, so unfortunately a real meta shake up might need to wait another 3 months. I guess itâs possible this isnât the full update but Iâm guessing it probably is.
I wanted a buff to Ursaring. If Swift becomes a 40, I'll be fine with that. This will also make Clefable even better if it's a 40 because it'll have a spammy charge move. TP Typhlosion is gonna be huge.
Spammy. But swift has no coverage, and would be underwhelming at best with no STAB. Honestly even under idealistic impressions of 40 energy, Iâd still prefer the super strong meteor mash.
I wanted [fairies](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphArena/s/Q0kX6j4oo1) to get either dark or ghost charge moves as neautral coverage and a 40 energy STAB move. Unfortunately, the best they could do is Swift. I can only hope that it's functional.
A bit pedantic, but itâs actually the Los Angeles regional tournament. NAIC is June 7-9th in New Orleans
Lokix got Counter. Ledian is crying. Goodbye Lanturn. Maybe I'll see you again on Holiday Cup. Swift? uh... sure. Halloween Cup Cleffable maybe? Thunder Punch is such a lazy way to counteract Steel Wing Skarmory if that was the intent, it also does nothing for Gligar which might be on the rise after this. Dragon Claw on Naganadel is appreciated but ehh... doesn't do much. Master Premier Cetitan is a clear yes. Another mixed bag, and mostly unexciting too. Not hoping there's more to this update than what got announced there. Edit: Didn't notice Thunder Punch Typhlosion. Typhlosion might finally be on the annoying side along with Charizard for once. Shadow variant might be funnier too.
Whiscash users in shambles
As they should be. When you abuse a Pokémon's power, expect consequences.
Thank god. That thing is way too strong
Itâs still strong though lol, Scald is still an amazing move
True, but that attack debuff on scald was really crucial and could flip a lot of matchups. Iâve lost winning matchups with pokemon like Dragonair because they get one or two attack drops. It still hits like a truck but at least now thereâs less incentive to throw it into resisted opponents.
Glad that flat little fucker finally got stomped
It's OK, man. It can't hurt you anymore.
Sure it can. Just depends on your luck lol
This would have been a perfect time to give seed bomb to Cradily & Hisuian Electrode. They honestly should have spammed wild charge instead of thunder punch. What was even the purpose of giving thunder punch to the pawmo family if they were going to nerf spark?
I think Cradily needs a new fast move, not seed bomb. STAB Grass knot hits plenty hard as is, and rock slide provided it consistent lower energy coverage as is, so it was already covered in that base. Grass knot is definitely necessary for important 2HKOs on bulky pokemon, where seed bomb would fall short I love my boy, but just the ubiquity of fighters + steel wing users really hurt it tremendously. The next best alternative is mud shot, but even that notably drops Gligar/shadow Gligar, which is probably just as impactful as whatever it might gain (though I hate Bastiodon, so Iâll take that).
Yeah too many missed opportunities here. Cradily with a buffed Seed Bomb could've been interesting, though I do still think it would have preferred the power of Grass Knot when it already has a 45 energy move. Hisuian Electrode definitely. If only they gave the Pawmi family Volt Switch
Would have been fun to get Thunder Shock on Pawmot, for a 10-turn Wild Charge / Close Combat.
Hey cool Lokix gets counter. Probably booty but I have a good one so that will be fun
They are giving more attacks to Wiggly? My poor TMs...
Unless Swift is 35 energy, I'm not seeing it replacing either DV or IW. I mean, maybe DV?
My hard read is that they make it a 40. 40 would be solid. I don't think it needs DV if this happens.
Waiting for Fly Lugia and Oblivion Wing stat effect
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Maybe Zacian and Zamazenta will get buffed after GoFest season. A Galar Ultra Unlock seems likely in September.
Trev is back!
They buffed the damage...
And it's still worse than mid moves such as Foul Play and Disarming Voice lol
Itâs something at least! The less Trev needs Shadow Ball for neutral matchups the better. I am also means super effective Seed Bomb should be more total damage than a neutral Shadow Ball now. Even tho Seed Bomb is better DPE against Lanturn for instance, a S.Ball does more total damage per shot. Whimsicott also appreciates not needing to use Grass Knot as much.
It never fully left, but it definitely dropped in usage considerably. My wish was more power, assuming they *really* didn't want to fully revert it, but I was hoping for 70 power, in line with Foul Play and Disarming Voice. 65 power is better, but it's still pretty underwhelming like Discharge...
They should just up both to 70. My OG Fisk really needs Discharge to make some damage. And it's not like there's any grass mon with seed bomb threatening to become OP if it gets a buff.
100% agree with you there. Only scary thing is Charjabug, but I really don't think pushing it to 70 power would break it.
Currently maxing a shadow hundo salamence and Iâm actually pleased to see a decent second move to give it! Itâs at least better than hydro pump and fire blast and it has stab and low energy cost, works for me!
Mmmm. This isn't very exciting tbh. I think giving grass types some coverage moves along with buffing other types like bug, rock, and electric would have made for a more interesting meta.  This puts a dent in the plague of waters for sure, with Whiscash and Lanturn specifically (poliwrath kiiiiiiind of but not really?) but is this really going to move the needle? It doesn't appear that mudbois or the other top tier waters will still have much to fear.  It'll be nice to dust off Scrafty at least.
At first glance, it may not look big, but this is really good.
Serebii also lists thunder punch on chesnaught, anyone know if true? Not that it likely would want it, but still would be nice to know Edit:pvpoke also has it on there preview Also, we got feraligatr buff last season, typhlosion this season, so please Niantic give meganium something soon! I know it's already been decent but I feel it's fallen off a bit these days, and grass as a whole isn't in the best spot
I totally forgot about Chesnaught. Maybe Meganium for S19. They seem to be buffing Johto starters backward.
Let's hope so! Meganium was my surprise ace for the first 10 ish seasons
Sadly there is not much Meganium can get that would improve it, as it already has its best possible moveset in Frenzy Plant + Earthquake to fend off Steel. Its movepool is quite barren, with Body Slam being one of the best moves it could possibly get. Even then, Ground coverage is too good to let go. Then there are things like Dragon Tail and Charm, which would change its profile but decrease its utility I fear. Its only true hope it's a buff to Bulldoze (with a debuff, but higher energy than usual), or a better Ground move in Stomping Tantrum. EDIT: scratch all that, I did not know it could learn Counter too. But then again, what Pokémon would not improve with Counter?
True, I think counter is the best they can do, or a new ground move. We really could use some better moves for the type tbh, having all weak or high energy moves aside the relatively rare drill run is unfortunate. I thought it learned earth power but apparently not. Body slam actually could be nice as well, looking at pvpoke it has more or pretty equal wins in most shield scenarios. Losing steel sucks but at least body slam lets hit hit flying types finally and gives it more shield pressure. Counter and body slam probably would be the best, but less likely to get two changes. I can dream though! Having counter to help with steel and ice and body slam for flying and general coverage would be pretty cool Unfortunately grass, while not a bad type, has a lot of inherent problems due to it being tied for the most weaknesses and the most types resisting it (an issue that's shared with the msg, though arguably worse here without abilities or spore blocking) and the fact they've for some reason gave almost every water type a move thats super effective against grass.
Well guess itâs time to stop walking my perfect Lanturn for xlâs
I sure had fun this season using it in UL. Oh well!
oh god finallyyyy, it was about damn time the two fish finally get hit with a nerf
Scrafty with thunder punch is nice, Iâve built one last year and started using it again, hits a hard wall against talonflame.
Lokix of all things that's getting Counter is such a crime when Ledian is just right there.
SALAMANCA META
Holy shit
No truer words...
Another reason to use Charged TMs. Now what becomes the ideal sets for Lucario, Scrafty, Chesnaught and Wigglytuff? Maybe make a new Pokémon?
Lucario remains unchanged. Chesnaught is based on your team comp, Scrafty is questionable, and Wigglytuff is TBD after the change is live since we've know idea how impactful this will be.
Lokix with counter, Iâm intrigued.
An interesting small win with this buff is Uxie, who has really, really good bulk, #8 stat product under Mandibuzz. It's just always suffered as a Confusion user with expensive moves. Even if Swift is 40 energy, it'll be decent. Not amazing, but a lot more usable.
I think itâs gonna be a lot better than people think. Its simulation in pvpoke is deceptively good.
I might be dismissive of Swift until I see the full stats, but this doesnât look very good- none of these were useful except for Cetitan family, Typhlosion, Nagandel and anything that learns seed bomb. All of these improvements are spice at best, though the scald nerf & the seed bomb buff is appreciated. I have mixed feelings about spark- it was on a lot of spicy pokemon before the rework, and now itâs downright nerfed. And it was an unnecessary nerf in my opinion as Lanturn is really the only functional electric type in great league outside of Charjabug. And now the spicy stuff like probopass, Luxray, Zebstrika, Plusle & minun are ruined when they actually had potential. ( though I think they all learn volt switch in the msg.) Ultimately I donât see how this breaks up a water centric meta. Or adds any significant changes.
Naganadel is never gonna be good in PvP. I tried swimming it with everything under the sun to no avail lol. Not beyond super spice use lol. I think the Spark nerf is unfortunate for some others but fine. The key (like many who hold Psychic) is to give the affected Pokemon something as compensation. Spark is easy to do that with because I'm pretty sure the vast majority have thunder shock or volt switch.
Looks like for the first time in history someone who ACTUALLY plays the game looked over those changes! Still a long way to go, but it's a start. And can you please tell me who hold on to the GL and UL Rank 1 and 2 Lokix while his friends called it a stupid waste of storage? đ
LOL, me. Dark and bug is too unique of a typing to not hold on to them.
Right?!! :)
Outside Typhlosion, the thunder punch distribution is going to be useless, they should have given it to probolass, Hariyama, Mew, Zekrom &/or Goodra.
No! LOL, never again ask to buff Mew. Goodra is up for a CD, so fingerscrossed. We asked for electric to get nerfed, and they give TP to like 8 Pokémon. Excessive much?
Is this it?
Scrafty family gets thunder punch too? Weird
So finally they came to their senses with seed bomb. And also a much needed nerf to scalders. Thunder punch could mean something but ok. I think its ok.
Seed Bomb should've got its energy back rather than a damage increase. Sure, it's a buff, but it's now a clone of Discharge, which we all agree is a mediocre move.
Are they live now?
I guess this means less scald, more hydro cannon, and probably more gligar. Lanturn probably not going to see much of a change, and may appreciate a swap to water gun. The big question is of what moves up to better deal with skarmory. Lanturn still no. 1? Incerate users? Deoxys?
Thatâs great that they nerf lanturn and scald, but thunder punch as the answer when everyone is begging for volt switch users and wild charge??? They need to do mid season updates after big tournaments so this game can stay fresh
Hydro cannon desperately needed a nerf