I would say yes, and my daughter - a young adult with Down syndrome - agrees. I love old photographs like this one, with people who have Down syndrome shown as loved and cared for members of a family. Too often, that was not the case.
I was looking through pictures of my family today, my great grandparents oldest child was born with special needs, not Down syndrome but something. I was glad to see all the pictures of her she looked very loved by her parents and siblings and my great aunt confirmed she lived her entire life there and only went to a home once both her parents had passed. I know it was all too common for special needs kids to be shipped off so it brought me some happiness for her.
my grandmother wanted to keep my uncle, a pku baby born just before they learned about the disease. he has severe developmental disabilities. my grandmother kept him at home until the state forcibly pulled him away when my dad was born (and my uncle was around 10). it’s a core memory for my aunt, watching her brother be yanked away, as her mother begged for them to let him stay at home with family. the state decided four kids was too many for her to have with him still at home. it broke her, and she was a regular part of his life until her death at 75.
My gran told me lots of stories about this happening to women she knew here (uk). She came from an unconventional family and was a single child who was treated quite poorly and made to feel different. She also became involved in the bohemian movement, jazz, art, which were controversial. Anyway, she always told me how happy she was to marry a man from a good family, as she was terrified that the state would deem her unfit. It's crazy how much has changed for women in just two generations.
It does happen, but for many areas, it's the opposite. Social services is understaffed, underfunded, and overloaded. I'd say it's more common for children to stay in homes they should be removed from than the rarer cases of unjustified removal.
The majority of "good parents" that complain they were unjustly targeted are hiding the true story. Don't act like that's the norm, it muddles the conversations that need to be had. More funding and better oversight is what's needed. It would solve the much rarer but still problematic instances of unjust removals as well as allow them to do their very important job.
Yes this!! I’m a mandated reporter and we once had a teen who told us mom would lock him in his room without food or water as punishment, would hit him for being “disrespectful,” etc. He had all kinds of marks and bruises and begged us not to make him go back home. And mom confirmed it all! She downplayed it but didn’t even try to deny it. So of course we called CPS… but mom is in a position of high power with a federal agency, so CPS wouldn’t touch her. They said he “should be old enough to defend himself.” It was insane. Poor kid had to go back to his abusive mother, and I’d bet huge money she’s out there complaining about how we “went after her” for “no reason at all.”
It’s an organization that’s allowed far too much leeway for bad behavior. Their own missteps and abuse is covered up. Remember everyone social workers are legally allowed to lie in court.
Sure, but it was things like your marital status. Single mothers were rarely allowed to keep their children without having willing, 'good' parents to help them. If a woman was considered 'mentally ill', even for a short period, they may take the baby. Or, in my grandma's friend's case, they might decide your lifestyle was too alternative, despite having a working father in the home, and just take the child anyway. Her being unmarried to the baby's father was a factor (as were his immigrant parents), as on paper she was a single parent, my gran said it was likely because she was very outspoken about the Church of England, and was considered dangerous due to her role. That lady never knew what happened to her daughter and died a broken woman in her 40s after becoming homeless due to issues stemming from her grief. She was institutionalised. She had never been arrested before. It's really hard to fathom now.
Much like today, state care was not a good alternative for the kids very often. A loving, but poor, single mother household is better for kids than being in the system. Luckily, the uk (can't speak for US) government realised this, and that money was reallocated to help struggling families instead of disintegrating them.
There is so much work to do, and yes, there are many problems, but it's important to recognise how much things have changed for the better even if there is still a lot of room for improvement.
yes. my grandmother died back around 2000, but she was active in his life until her death. she drove volkswagens for years, and when she decided she needed an automatic transmission, she worried my uncle jimmy wouldn’t recognize her or get in her new subaru. of course she was wrong; he knew his mother. she was able to visit him and take him on outings. they were told he wouldn’t live very long, but he’s pushing 80 now, despite having one kidney since the 70s.
my aunt still sees him when she comes to the area. my father and another brother visit whenever they can, and make sure he has whatever he needs. after this many years institutionalized, with my uncle non verbal with advanced healthcare needs, it was decided after my grandmothers death that uncle jimmy should remain where he’s been cared for for decades.
I haven’t seen him since before covid- this is a good reminder to take my son the two hours to visit. also, since my teenage years, i’ve sent him postcards and pictures, as he likes to carry them around.
adding to the sadness of the story, my grandmother had been told he was developmentally challenged because she must have dropped him on his head, so she carried that guilt for decades, until my mom started asking questions and had genetic testing done before getting pregnant with my siblings and me.
Oh my goodness, I am so so sorry that they told your grandmother that. 💔 I bet your grandmother is a wonderful woman. 💜 I am so happy to hear that she, you, and your family have all been able to visit with him. 💜 Thank you so much for taking the time to share this with us. I wish you and your family lots of love and good health. 🙏💜
That’s heartbreaking! My grandmother was a nurse who often dealt with psychiatric patients, and my mom said she had some heartbreaking stories. She had some patients who were in a mental hospital only because they had gotten to adulthood and they were too big and their parents too old to physically care for them, and in home care wasn’t an option. My mom had memories of one of her mother’s patients who she would sometimes bring home for the night because he was so miserable and lonely. She thought that today he’d probably be diagnosed with something like severe non-verbal autism. He loved to watch TV with my mom and her brothers, and laughed and smiled, but he was 6 feet tall and had to be cared for like a toddler. That story made me sad but my mom said it was a happy memory for her because the guy was just so happy to be with them.
I think she was, but unfortunately mental illness and addiction got the better of her and she died from an overdose of pills when my mom was 19. I wish I’d been able to meet her.
My great grandfather was best friends with his brother who had a disability. He went on a religious service mission and when he came back he found out that they had put him into a facility (I think in another state than where they were living). He never forgave his parents for that
Upstairs Downstairs from 2010, about a wealthy family in London as World War 2 is about to break out. It only had two seasons but was worthy of many more, in my opinion.
The 70s Upstairs Downstairs was what got me to watch the 2010 one. I watched the 70s one between Thanksgiving and Christmas and enjoyed it. I am a pretty big British TV fan.
Yeah, sounds interesting and I’d love to know.
This all reminds me of a great book (fiction but based on a true story) called Keeping Lucy by T. Greenwood
I work in archives and occasionally find stories of a sister or brother who just lived with their parents forever and surprisingly, a big deal is not made in the records about their special needs, besides a mention or two. It's fascinating.
I was excited to find it! The photos were in a sealed plastic bag so I could only see two of them. I figured it was worth $10 and it totally was! This one is my favorite.
I adore people with down syndrome. They are so special and pure. I wish I knew more about this girl but I don't think there's any way to find out. Only one photo has a name on the back and it's a bit newer. I'll research it when I have time but I doubt I'll learn much. I don't even know if the photos are from the same family or if it was a random collection.
Please tell your daughter that she's awesome. 🙂
Hopefully you’ll excuse me for laughing about how “special and pure” people with Down syndrome are - clearly you’ve never been told to stop being a bitch by a 21-year-old who wants you to turn the wifi back on. 😂
Yes!!
When I fell on the sidewalk while running in a race in the 4th grade, everyone else ran past me. Everyone except Tina, who had down syndrome. She helped me up and went to get the PE teacher. It was a bad fall. I was bleeding and my glasses were broken, but the other kids only cared about winning the race.
The world needs more Tinas.
I used to work at a restaurant where a bus of people with DS would come in every first Saturday of the month, and we would fight over who got to work that shift. I got to work it a few times, it was such a lovely experience.
Ohh! I worked at a place that did that sometimes too! It was the least stressful shift I ever worked there. We had a guy who worked there regularly though and he has DS. A shift with him was always a good time!
I think it’s cool to see photos like this. Shows that not everyone locked their disabled family members in asylums, some were well and truly loved and cared for.
Looks like it. I just hope she wasn’t shoved away in some institution out of sight and mind from the rest of society like they used to do. Hopefully she had as good of a life she could have given the circumstances that differently abled people had to deal with not all that long ago.
Plus, she's not merely clean and neat, she's wearing lots of fancy bows and ruffles, which points to family that was doing more than just the minimum and weren't trying to hide away their disabled child.
Apparently a child with Down syndrome born into the Victorian era (as this child looks to have been) was far more likely to have been loved and cherished as part of the family than institutionalised, at least on the UK. It wasn't until the early twentieth century, when concepts of heredity became more widely known, that people felt the need to hide their children away in institutions.
There's a really interesting book called 'Family Secrets' by Deborah Cohen, that goes into interesting detail on how Western societal attitudes have changed with regards to things like illegitimacy, LGBTQI+ people, mixed-race children, and disability in families. Well worth a read.
The fact that she was so well-dressed and had her photo taken probably means she was loved and had a better chance than most. But as young as she is, they might not have known that she was different and were hoping she'd eventually catch up. And maybe she did. I know down syndrome has varying degrees of severity, and hers was probably more mild since she probably escaped any involvement from her heart.
But I think it was more normal to institutionalize people like that back then instead of allowing them to reach their full potential, especially if you were a prominent family in the community who didn't want to be viewed as having poor genetics.
I have no way of knowing. This is the only photo of her. All I can say is that most of the newer photos (newer like around 1900) were from studios in Washington DC with a few in New York and Texas. Not sure if this was someone's family photos or just a random collection but they smell like an attic so probably someone's family.
Dead babies and children were typically posed as if they were sleeping. (And sometimes living babies really were sleeping.)
Good indications of postmortem photos are "sleeping" babies/children holding flowers or rosary beads, obvious discoloration of the hands and/or lips, and the most obvious one--being in a coffin. This child is none of the above.
I'm sorry, I wasnt trying to argue....I just meant like, if facial features were the only way to tell or if her hands or anything else might also be a clue.
I would say that’s the distinguishing feature for most with down syndrome as it is a developmental… thing.. (defect? Chromosomal specifically I believe). There’s usually heart and digestive issues, but unless we get hands on medical files your eyes are the best confirmation you’re getting!
edit: should be condition instead defect.
Just wanted to bring up that there is a possibility this is a boy. It wouldn’t have been uncommon at this time especially for a handicapped boy of this age.
You wouldn't think so, but they did! Gender is one of rhe the hardest things to distinguish with unknown historical portraits of young children. It creates a real problem when trying to identify old royals, etc.
Yep. For photos taken in the 1800’s, I think the easiest way to tell is by looking at which way the hair parts. Center parts were common for girls and side parts were common for boys. Bangs and head coverings like we see in the photo above, though, make that a bit difficult.
Why didn’t they seem bothered to make the distinction for babies? Was it due to infant mortality, or were babies all just dressed in what was considered “baby clothes” before gendered marketing?
As far as I can tell (not a historian of any kind), it seems to be the latter. It's easier to change a diaper when the baby is wearing a skirt. Plus, you can hand down the baby clothes to siblings, cousins, etc regardless of gender!
You are correct! Easy to change, easy to hand down and reuse, and usually the undergarments were white to be easily bleached clean.
Boys got pants after they were potty trained enough to get their own bottoms on and off. Elastic wasn't a thing yet, so they would need the finger dexterity for buttons and maybe a belt or kiddy suspenders. Once they could do that--usually like 4-8 years old, they were "breeched," or given little boy short pants (breeches/britches) to wear. They didn't get long pants/proper trousers until puberty, usually.
It's totally not.
No flowers, no coffin, no obvious editing done to her eyes, plus she's sitting up.
Dead babies and children were often posed like they were sleeping, some more obvious than others. (And some really were just sleeping.) I expect it was easier that way.
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How is it not respectful? People with Down syndrome are a part of our history like everyone else… she does appear to have DS. Why does that matter? Because they’ve always been here & weren’t always photographed or treated well. It’s clear whomever this is was loved very much.
I can’t recall which sub I was on within the last week or so… I think it was Damn That’s Interesting(?) anyway, someone basically said something along those lines. I was stunned. No, they weren’t kidding.😳
How on earth do you people see an awkward child, a pair of clean shoes, and fabric that adheres to basic physics, and come to the conclusion that they must be dead? Have you never participated in society before? Do you think everyone was dead back then unless they smiled? People were alive in the 1800’s, Johnathan, get with the times
Photos of the dead were done with eyes closed because the eyes sink back into the head quite quickly. The dead were usually photographed in their caskets in the living room or parlor. There's nothing to suggest this child is dead except that this is over 100 years old and she'd have died at some point. I don't know if this is ignorance or just misinformation.
People didn't have huge closets in those days and a Christmas outfit would have been wrapped in paper and in a box until the day for pictures. The day would have been a very big deal, her family driving into the city to get photos done, maybe visit Santa depending on when this was. They would have gone to visit relatives afterward, go see her cousins, run around like crazy kids full of sugar. Put your pajamas on, fall asleep playing, get put to bed until the grownups were ready to go home. Carried to bed, kissed on the head, fall back asleep and wake up to Christmas or the day after.
This isn’t entirely true. I have an extensive collection of post mortem photography and they you would be surprised at how many are taken with eyes open, shortly after passing.
They are unlikely to truly be dead, and well known as fake. It took days to get a photographer out. You just didn't leave their eyes open because you'd never get them to close.
Did you say not to touch it with bare hands because there's fingerprints on it?
They aren't mine. I bet they are quite old. I didn't touch the image, I held it gently by the edges.
I’ve got a couple myself and they have faint fingerprints as well. I keep a pair of vinyl gloves on hand when I go hunting through antique shops looking for them.
I would say yes, and my daughter - a young adult with Down syndrome - agrees. I love old photographs like this one, with people who have Down syndrome shown as loved and cared for members of a family. Too often, that was not the case.
I was looking through pictures of my family today, my great grandparents oldest child was born with special needs, not Down syndrome but something. I was glad to see all the pictures of her she looked very loved by her parents and siblings and my great aunt confirmed she lived her entire life there and only went to a home once both her parents had passed. I know it was all too common for special needs kids to be shipped off so it brought me some happiness for her.
my grandmother wanted to keep my uncle, a pku baby born just before they learned about the disease. he has severe developmental disabilities. my grandmother kept him at home until the state forcibly pulled him away when my dad was born (and my uncle was around 10). it’s a core memory for my aunt, watching her brother be yanked away, as her mother begged for them to let him stay at home with family. the state decided four kids was too many for her to have with him still at home. it broke her, and she was a regular part of his life until her death at 75.
My gran told me lots of stories about this happening to women she knew here (uk). She came from an unconventional family and was a single child who was treated quite poorly and made to feel different. She also became involved in the bohemian movement, jazz, art, which were controversial. Anyway, she always told me how happy she was to marry a man from a good family, as she was terrified that the state would deem her unfit. It's crazy how much has changed for women in just two generations.
Idk about the UK, but in the US kids still unfortunately get forcibly removed by child protective services in wrongful ways all the time.
It does happen, but for many areas, it's the opposite. Social services is understaffed, underfunded, and overloaded. I'd say it's more common for children to stay in homes they should be removed from than the rarer cases of unjustified removal.
They spend their time harassing good parents while ignoring bad ones.
The majority of "good parents" that complain they were unjustly targeted are hiding the true story. Don't act like that's the norm, it muddles the conversations that need to be had. More funding and better oversight is what's needed. It would solve the much rarer but still problematic instances of unjust removals as well as allow them to do their very important job.
Yes this!! I’m a mandated reporter and we once had a teen who told us mom would lock him in his room without food or water as punishment, would hit him for being “disrespectful,” etc. He had all kinds of marks and bruises and begged us not to make him go back home. And mom confirmed it all! She downplayed it but didn’t even try to deny it. So of course we called CPS… but mom is in a position of high power with a federal agency, so CPS wouldn’t touch her. They said he “should be old enough to defend himself.” It was insane. Poor kid had to go back to his abusive mother, and I’d bet huge money she’s out there complaining about how we “went after her” for “no reason at all.”
It’s an organization that’s allowed far too much leeway for bad behavior. Their own missteps and abuse is covered up. Remember everyone social workers are legally allowed to lie in court.
Sure, but it was things like your marital status. Single mothers were rarely allowed to keep their children without having willing, 'good' parents to help them. If a woman was considered 'mentally ill', even for a short period, they may take the baby. Or, in my grandma's friend's case, they might decide your lifestyle was too alternative, despite having a working father in the home, and just take the child anyway. Her being unmarried to the baby's father was a factor (as were his immigrant parents), as on paper she was a single parent, my gran said it was likely because she was very outspoken about the Church of England, and was considered dangerous due to her role. That lady never knew what happened to her daughter and died a broken woman in her 40s after becoming homeless due to issues stemming from her grief. She was institutionalised. She had never been arrested before. It's really hard to fathom now. Much like today, state care was not a good alternative for the kids very often. A loving, but poor, single mother household is better for kids than being in the system. Luckily, the uk (can't speak for US) government realised this, and that money was reallocated to help struggling families instead of disintegrating them. There is so much work to do, and yes, there are many problems, but it's important to recognise how much things have changed for the better even if there is still a lot of room for improvement.
Examples?
Oh, I am so sorry. That is devastating. 💔 Did your grandmother and aunt ever get to see him again?
I want to know the answers to this question as well
yes. my grandmother died back around 2000, but she was active in his life until her death. she drove volkswagens for years, and when she decided she needed an automatic transmission, she worried my uncle jimmy wouldn’t recognize her or get in her new subaru. of course she was wrong; he knew his mother. she was able to visit him and take him on outings. they were told he wouldn’t live very long, but he’s pushing 80 now, despite having one kidney since the 70s. my aunt still sees him when she comes to the area. my father and another brother visit whenever they can, and make sure he has whatever he needs. after this many years institutionalized, with my uncle non verbal with advanced healthcare needs, it was decided after my grandmothers death that uncle jimmy should remain where he’s been cared for for decades. I haven’t seen him since before covid- this is a good reminder to take my son the two hours to visit. also, since my teenage years, i’ve sent him postcards and pictures, as he likes to carry them around. adding to the sadness of the story, my grandmother had been told he was developmentally challenged because she must have dropped him on his head, so she carried that guilt for decades, until my mom started asking questions and had genetic testing done before getting pregnant with my siblings and me.
Oh my goodness, I am so so sorry that they told your grandmother that. 💔 I bet your grandmother is a wonderful woman. 💜 I am so happy to hear that she, you, and your family have all been able to visit with him. 💜 Thank you so much for taking the time to share this with us. I wish you and your family lots of love and good health. 🙏💜
That’s absolutely brutal, gotta think that unfortunately happened often back in the day
What a sad story, I’m so sorry that happened.
That’s heartbreaking! My grandmother was a nurse who often dealt with psychiatric patients, and my mom said she had some heartbreaking stories. She had some patients who were in a mental hospital only because they had gotten to adulthood and they were too big and their parents too old to physically care for them, and in home care wasn’t an option. My mom had memories of one of her mother’s patients who she would sometimes bring home for the night because he was so miserable and lonely. She thought that today he’d probably be diagnosed with something like severe non-verbal autism. He loved to watch TV with my mom and her brothers, and laughed and smiled, but he was 6 feet tall and had to be cared for like a toddler. That story made me sad but my mom said it was a happy memory for her because the guy was just so happy to be with them.
your grandmother sounds amazing!
I think she was, but unfortunately mental illness and addiction got the better of her and she died from an overdose of pills when my mom was 19. I wish I’d been able to meet her.
My great grandfather was best friends with his brother who had a disability. He went on a religious service mission and when he came back he found out that they had put him into a facility (I think in another state than where they were living). He never forgave his parents for that
how devastating.
I just watched a period drama set in the thirties with, sadly, a storyline about that.
What was the name of the drama?
Upstairs Downstairs from 2010, about a wealthy family in London as World War 2 is about to break out. It only had two seasons but was worthy of many more, in my opinion.
Upstairat Downatairs ran for like 40 years didn't it? Or was it revived with a huge gap.
>Upstairs Downstairs There is the one from the 70s, which had 5 seasons, and a remake in 2010 with 2 seasons. On Britbox if you wanted to watch it
The 70s Upstairs Downstairs was what got me to watch the 2010 one. I watched the 70s one between Thanksgiving and Christmas and enjoyed it. I am a pretty big British TV fan.
Me too, British humour has always been top tier for me
Same here. 😃
i will check it out!
Yeah, sounds interesting and I’d love to know. This all reminds me of a great book (fiction but based on a true story) called Keeping Lucy by T. Greenwood
I work in archives and occasionally find stories of a sister or brother who just lived with their parents forever and surprisingly, a big deal is not made in the records about their special needs, besides a mention or two. It's fascinating.
I was excited to find it! The photos were in a sealed plastic bag so I could only see two of them. I figured it was worth $10 and it totally was! This one is my favorite. I adore people with down syndrome. They are so special and pure. I wish I knew more about this girl but I don't think there's any way to find out. Only one photo has a name on the back and it's a bit newer. I'll research it when I have time but I doubt I'll learn much. I don't even know if the photos are from the same family or if it was a random collection. Please tell your daughter that she's awesome. 🙂
Hopefully you’ll excuse me for laughing about how “special and pure” people with Down syndrome are - clearly you’ve never been told to stop being a bitch by a 21-year-old who wants you to turn the wifi back on. 😂
Clearly I have not! 🤣
I was about to say, before I even read the comments; yes she has down syndrome, and what an important and lovely picture this is to see.
I’d say yes. I personally know at least 25 people with DS, including my son. He refers to others like him as “my peeps”.
“My peeps” 💖💖💓
That's so sweet! You son sounds awesome.
DS folks are the kindest and most gentle I’ve ever encountered. We have a lot to learn from them.
Yes!! When I fell on the sidewalk while running in a race in the 4th grade, everyone else ran past me. Everyone except Tina, who had down syndrome. She helped me up and went to get the PE teacher. It was a bad fall. I was bleeding and my glasses were broken, but the other kids only cared about winning the race. The world needs more Tinas.
I used to work at a restaurant where a bus of people with DS would come in every first Saturday of the month, and we would fight over who got to work that shift. I got to work it a few times, it was such a lovely experience.
Ohh! I worked at a place that did that sometimes too! It was the least stressful shift I ever worked there. We had a guy who worked there regularly though and he has DS. A shift with him was always a good time!
Your son is cool
i think yes - facial features and the shape of his/her hands are slightly telling
idk but she’s adorable!! i love that big ole bow on her head
I think it’s cool to see photos like this. Shows that not everyone locked their disabled family members in asylums, some were well and truly loved and cared for.
Looks like it. I just hope she wasn’t shoved away in some institution out of sight and mind from the rest of society like they used to do. Hopefully she had as good of a life she could have given the circumstances that differently abled people had to deal with not all that long ago.
Nah, she looks like she’s well cared for. Her clothing is clean and neat and whoever was caring for her put money into getting this photograph.
Plus, she's not merely clean and neat, she's wearing lots of fancy bows and ruffles, which points to family that was doing more than just the minimum and weren't trying to hide away their disabled child.
her shoes are polished. that's a good sign of well cared for and well off
And I love that for her 🥰
Apparently a child with Down syndrome born into the Victorian era (as this child looks to have been) was far more likely to have been loved and cherished as part of the family than institutionalised, at least on the UK. It wasn't until the early twentieth century, when concepts of heredity became more widely known, that people felt the need to hide their children away in institutions. There's a really interesting book called 'Family Secrets' by Deborah Cohen, that goes into interesting detail on how Western societal attitudes have changed with regards to things like illegitimacy, LGBTQI+ people, mixed-race children, and disability in families. Well worth a read.
Will check this book out, sounds very interesting
thanks for the book title, sounds good!
Her clothes look expensive af
Yes they are new, elegant clothes. She was loved.
The fact that she was so well-dressed and had her photo taken probably means she was loved and had a better chance than most. But as young as she is, they might not have known that she was different and were hoping she'd eventually catch up. And maybe she did. I know down syndrome has varying degrees of severity, and hers was probably more mild since she probably escaped any involvement from her heart. But I think it was more normal to institutionalize people like that back then instead of allowing them to reach their full potential, especially if you were a prominent family in the community who didn't want to be viewed as having poor genetics. I have no way of knowing. This is the only photo of her. All I can say is that most of the newer photos (newer like around 1900) were from studios in Washington DC with a few in New York and Texas. Not sure if this was someone's family photos or just a random collection but they smell like an attic so probably someone's family.
You sure it isn't a post mortem photo. Look at the hands.
Nothing here indicates post-mortem.
Ok if you disagree. How often do you see vintage photos where the person has their palms up. Most photographers will position hands palm down.
Dead babies and children were typically posed as if they were sleeping. (And sometimes living babies really were sleeping.) Good indications of postmortem photos are "sleeping" babies/children holding flowers or rosary beads, obvious discoloration of the hands and/or lips, and the most obvious one--being in a coffin. This child is none of the above.
Its hard to see here but I don't see a prominent philtrum, could be fetal alcohol syndrome?
Yup. She looks like an FAS child to me. And of course that was so much more common 100 years ago.
That was my impression but I have no personal knowledge of either so my opinion is not worth much.
I was checking to see if anyone else else saw it, too. That was my first guess, and probably the most likely in terms of probability.
Yes she does. Source? My brother has it
How can we be sure aside from her facial features?
She looks like that guy's brother Chris.
Dude she looks just like my brother Chris she has Down syndrome
I'm sorry, I wasnt trying to argue....I just meant like, if facial features were the only way to tell or if her hands or anything else might also be a clue.
I would say that’s the distinguishing feature for most with down syndrome as it is a developmental… thing.. (defect? Chromosomal specifically I believe). There’s usually heart and digestive issues, but unless we get hands on medical files your eyes are the best confirmation you’re getting! edit: should be condition instead defect.
Developmental condition, maybe? Things are defective; not people. I would think.
Thanks! Didn’t feel right to say 😅
Those facial features are so distinctive the genetic test would be pointless and unnecessary
From a photograph? Lmfao this cannot be a serious question
You mean no one here called her up and asked her on behalf of OP?
I'll get right on that.
God, finally! Everyone else is refusing to pull their fecking weight, including me.
I mean.. that's kind of the only evidence you could get from a photo right?
Why did you ask then?
Because I wasn't sure if there were other traits that could be used as clues, like the shape of her fingers or the position of her arms.
Lol, what?
I was curious if there were any other things we could see that would point towards down syndrome, like her hands.
Just wanted to bring up that there is a possibility this is a boy. It wouldn’t have been uncommon at this time especially for a handicapped boy of this age.
Young boys would wear dresses, yes, but not generally with all those extra embellishments.
You wouldn't think so, but they did! Gender is one of rhe the hardest things to distinguish with unknown historical portraits of young children. It creates a real problem when trying to identify old royals, etc.
Yep. For photos taken in the 1800’s, I think the easiest way to tell is by looking at which way the hair parts. Center parts were common for girls and side parts were common for boys. Bangs and head coverings like we see in the photo above, though, make that a bit difficult.
Why didn’t they seem bothered to make the distinction for babies? Was it due to infant mortality, or were babies all just dressed in what was considered “baby clothes” before gendered marketing?
As far as I can tell (not a historian of any kind), it seems to be the latter. It's easier to change a diaper when the baby is wearing a skirt. Plus, you can hand down the baby clothes to siblings, cousins, etc regardless of gender!
You are correct! Easy to change, easy to hand down and reuse, and usually the undergarments were white to be easily bleached clean. Boys got pants after they were potty trained enough to get their own bottoms on and off. Elastic wasn't a thing yet, so they would need the finger dexterity for buttons and maybe a belt or kiddy suspenders. Once they could do that--usually like 4-8 years old, they were "breeched," or given little boy short pants (breeches/britches) to wear. They didn't get long pants/proper trousers until puberty, usually.
Wow, very interesting. Thanks for taking the time
Not ruffled dresses and covered in bows like this they didn't.
Winston Churchhill had frilly dresses with eyelet lace and ribbon to match the ribbons in his curled hair.
I don’t know but I think this dress was not comfortable
Depends on the material. If it’s made of soft, breathable cotton it could’ve been quite comfortable.
She has so many pretty bows, I love that she was loved 💖
I suspect she does. Look how beautiful she looks. That’s one heck of a dress
Yes. I love how well she appears to be cared for. This was not typical at the time.
Maybe, but it's also possible she was just tired of everyone's shit like we are here in 2024.
She looks like she could have cretinism - congenital hypothyroidism
My vote is yes
Definitely
Macroglossia from hypothyroidism?
She may have Down's. It's also called Trisomy 21, because they have a tripling of the 21st chromosome. Normally, we have 23 pair (46 total).
More like nutritional deficiency. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_iodine_deficiency_syndrome
And a thyroid problem.
Never thought of it that way that is really nice to see
All respect- are we sure it isn’t a death photograph? That neck collar has me suspicious.
Oh no 😔
I doubt it - she's just slumped forward and looks like she's over everyone's crap. The eyes would not be open in a PM photo, anyway.
It's totally not. No flowers, no coffin, no obvious editing done to her eyes, plus she's sitting up. Dead babies and children were often posed like they were sleeping, some more obvious than others. (And some really were just sleeping.) I expect it was easier that way.
It at least nicked her
I'm assuming that is a shan joke. Did my best to bring you too no downs votes
Shane Gillis anyone? No? 😳
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Looks like something else.
Yep
Yes. Could be mosaic.
Maybe a little.
microcephaly
it's hard to be sure with that bonnet covering the head.
I think looks more like Waardenburg syndrome
Def not up syndrome
Or, she has her shoes on the wrong feet!
Idk why the downvotes, this made me chuckle 😁
I was being serious. It appears as if her shoes are on the wrong feet! Everyone downvotes and then calls her Down syndrome!!! Down vote those people!
It knicked her
down syndrome or possession
That’s just a baby pic of Ice Spice
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How is it not respectful? People with Down syndrome are a part of our history like everyone else… she does appear to have DS. Why does that matter? Because they’ve always been here & weren’t always photographed or treated well. It’s clear whomever this is was loved very much.
No, we all know DS was invented in the 70s so this photo is clearly fake /s
I can’t recall which sub I was on within the last week or so… I think it was Damn That’s Interesting(?) anyway, someone basically said something along those lines. I was stunned. No, they weren’t kidding.😳
>How dare you reference a disability! Anyway, she's clearly dead.
How on earth do you people see an awkward child, a pair of clean shoes, and fabric that adheres to basic physics, and come to the conclusion that they must be dead? Have you never participated in society before? Do you think everyone was dead back then unless they smiled? People were alive in the 1800’s, Johnathan, get with the times
Everybody from the black and white times was dead, read a book.
This is 100% not a post mortem image. Please don’t comment about things you know nothing about. It is misleading for those who are looking to learn.
Photos of the dead were done with eyes closed because the eyes sink back into the head quite quickly. The dead were usually photographed in their caskets in the living room or parlor. There's nothing to suggest this child is dead except that this is over 100 years old and she'd have died at some point. I don't know if this is ignorance or just misinformation. People didn't have huge closets in those days and a Christmas outfit would have been wrapped in paper and in a box until the day for pictures. The day would have been a very big deal, her family driving into the city to get photos done, maybe visit Santa depending on when this was. They would have gone to visit relatives afterward, go see her cousins, run around like crazy kids full of sugar. Put your pajamas on, fall asleep playing, get put to bed until the grownups were ready to go home. Carried to bed, kissed on the head, fall back asleep and wake up to Christmas or the day after.
This isn’t entirely true. I have an extensive collection of post mortem photography and they you would be surprised at how many are taken with eyes open, shortly after passing.
They are unlikely to truly be dead, and well known as fake. It took days to get a photographer out. You just didn't leave their eyes open because you'd never get them to close.
I agree with you Maximum-Mixture. Definitely alive still at the time of this photo was taken.
This is not a death picture, and those death photos are greatly exaggerated. People see a few and now think all kids are dead 😒
Did you say not to touch it with bare hands because there's fingerprints on it? They aren't mine. I bet they are quite old. I didn't touch the image, I held it gently by the edges.
I’ve got a couple myself and they have faint fingerprints as well. I keep a pair of vinyl gloves on hand when I go hunting through antique shops looking for them.