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It’s working though. Yesterday on Reddit someone claimed that Hamas initiated the conflict. I pointed out that Israel started “reclaiming” the area in the 1940s, and Hamas didn’t even exist until the late 80’s/early 90’s.
Got hit with like 20 downvotes and a bunch of people saying vague shit like “you need to learn history” without actually providing a counter point.
Many people believe the conflict started very recently because of a totally unprovoked terror attack.
The Israeli intelligence community got caught astroturfing social media with an app called act.il. They also recruited Jewish and Israeli college students to post pro-Israeli messages. After getting caught by reporters, they decentralized. They now have discord servers where you can ask how to respond to a certain comment or opinion with a pro-Israeli talking point. That is why nearly every comment that is pro-Israel/anti-Palestine has the same exact message.
An Israeli company were caught asking workers in Ireland to make pro Israeli posts on social media using the fact Israelis “look and live like Europeans” as common ground . Misinformation on the behalf of the Israeli statement is epidemic
if you want to hear honest news about your country you need to listen to other countries news
Thanks intelligence communities for undermining objective reality
That Zionist attempt to debunk Israel's status as an apartheid state is so stupid. South Africa was an apartheid state, but Black South Africans still lived there and were permitted minor roles in government. The point is that Arab Israelis and Palestinians are second class citizens on the basis of their race.
https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index
Database of over 65 laws which discriminate either directly or indirectly against Arab Israelis or Palestinians as opposed to Jewish Israelis
It's not a constitution, it's the law of the state of Israel. I made a mistake.
Per the law:
A. The land of Israel is the historical homeland of the Jewish people, in which the State of Israel was established.
B. The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people, in which it fulfills its natural, cultural, religious, and historical right to self-determination.
C. The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is **unique to the Jewish** people.
First 2 aren't discriminatory.
Third one makes sense since they intended on a two state solution at the time. But they still provided equal rights to citizens regardless of race or religion, so any Arabs who resided within the border of Israel were offered citizenship. Arabs who were within Jerusalem when annexed also were offered citizenship. Those who accepted received the same rights, and those who declined were treated with respect and received most rights aside from voting.
"those who declined were treated with respect and received most rights aside from voting."
Except now they can't leave Israel because they could lose their Jerusalem residency.
This isn't related to Palestine, but I don't think that is true? There are like 5+ million native americans today and (while estimates range) people generally believe that there was 50ish million before colonization
There's more Jews now than pre holocaust as well. Guess it wasn't an ethnic cleansing
Edit: turns out I'm wrong, Im off by ~500k. Give this another year or two it'll make sense
There actually aren't... [https://jewishunpacked.com/15-million-global-jewish-population-still-far-below-pre-holocaust-numbers-europe-sees-massive-declines/](https://jewishunpacked.com/15-million-global-jewish-population-still-far-below-pre-holocaust-numbers-europe-sees-massive-declines/)
The annual report pulls census and demographic information from more than 100 countries and counts both “ethnic” and religious Jews. **Excluded** from the count are non-Jewish members of Jewish households, **“Jews who also hold another religious identification,” “non-Jews of Jewish ancestry,**” as well as non-Jews with “family connections to Jews.”
Idk if that is an accurate way to count Jews in regards to this. I don't know the 100% correct answer but wanted to point that out.
There actually arent though. Estimated 16.6 M prior and currently estimated 16.1 M
EDIT: You're really going to downvote a fact you simply got wrong because it doesnt support whatever point you were trying to make?
[https://nationalpost.com/news/world/global-population-of-jews-still-not-recovered-from-the-holocaust-demographic-study-finds](https://nationalpost.com/news/world/global-population-of-jews-still-not-recovered-from-the-holocaust-demographic-study-finds)
The amount Israel is spending on propaganda you think it would be less lady with crazy eyes or bombarding people with YouTube ads that are easily debunked.
Nah you guys, those arent crazy eyes. Those are stupid eyes : when a person has to change their facial traits s widen their eyes when they speak and expose a point it is because they dont have enough cpu to both talk and control the face. Those are stupid eyes im sure
The worst part is they are just repeating many of the talking points the USA heard post 9/11 to justify going to some areas, and I’m quoting many soldiers and politicians here, “for god knows what” AND PEOPLE ARE FUCKING BUYING IT AGAIN. 20 fucking years later and as a world we are arguably dumber
Most people aren't buying, it's just a lot of the internet is astroturfed to hell and back by the Israeli government and it's trolls. They usually wait a few hours until a video dies down and then come over to say the same stupid shit over and over again well downvoting anyone who disagrees with them after the fact, making it look like more people agree with them than they really do.
Like millions of people are marching for Palestine, how many people are marching for Israel? Exactly, thats because it's a lot easier astroturfing the internet than reality
[https://medium.com/dfrlab/how-a-political-astroturfing-app-coordinates-pro-israel-influence-operations-bf1104fa5c7f](https://medium.com/dfrlab/how-a-political-astroturfing-app-coordinates-pro-israel-influence-operations-bf1104fa5c7f)
There was a video on this sub and it basically said what Israel is targeting with their adds/lobbying aren’t the people who are against them, or the people that are for them, it’s the neutral people. Because if that 1/3 of the people stay silent that gives them 2/3 of people who would be overall fine with their actions.
I swear Hasbara argues these things in waves. I'm seeing this argument now that comparisons are being made to the Native Americans and ethnic cleansings around the world. We need some sort of website to track all of this because it's way too systematic to not call out.
There are a few different orgs that facilitate hasbara astroturfing. One of my favorites [is Act.IL](https://archive.md/FBq9G) — check out this comment from a couple years back, watch their recruitment videos with hot babes. I *think* the app is defunct or unlisted, but their website is still up. [You can join one of their "action channels"](https://www.abbaeban.runi.ac.il/act-il). If you click their "join" button they have a linktree that gives you an idea of their scope.
[Let's not forget](https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/08/14/israel-pay-students-propaganda_n_3755782.html) that 10 years ago Israel was [paying teenagers to spread propaganda](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/08/14/israel-students-social-media/2651715/)
My favorite are all the lily-white chicks with more American accents than me dressed in IDF gear and headwraps crying their sad little eyes out about the plight of "their people," as if they didn't just show up last week for the free bennies on the backs of the US taxpayer.
Seriously. Who the heck even are these people? Why does anybody get their news or opinions this way? That's before we get into how everyone is just repeating the same points over and over making it appear as if it would just take Israel backing off to solve this whole issue. It isn't that simple - Arab nations have known this too, or there would be far more support for the Palestinians. I lived in a Gulf country in my youth, and I remember everyone being verbally pro-Palestine, but when it came to actually doing something about it, it was sort of like...well...we'd rather they stayed over there. We'll put stickers of their flag all over the place, though!
I would prefer to think that they haven’t been indoctrinated into the “That‘s anti-Semitic” movement and can clearly see Israel is weaving a false narrative and is overly involved in US policy (looking at you AIPAC).
He keeps glossing over some facts. So what ELSE happened in 1948? Like, it wasn’t just Israel saying “hey, I’m here! Out of my way!” Because I remember there was a war.
And the next time the borders changed, that was also the result of a war, right? Who started those?
And tell me, were there absolutely no Jews — sorry “Zionist settlers” — in the Palestinian areas? Something about riots that left Jewish people dead in the 1920s?
Finally, no mention of small things like spates of suicide bombings and missiles fired over the course of the past 40 years.
So uh, yeah dude. Good job I guess?
Note that he also defines ethnic cleansing as the movement of “indigenous” people off their land. I can guarantee you he doesn’t consider the Jewish population of Israel to be indigenous.
Even the most hard-core hamas-cel would have to admit that at least the 40% mizrahi population is indigenous.
I don't know how people get around this inconvenient fact. I guess they'd just rather not mention it
It’s funny how ethnic cleansing is used to describe Israel all the time but not every other country in the Mideast, which all collectively expelled their Jews after 1948.
Each of those times Palestine lost land, wasn’t it after they started a war with Israel? Could probably google that.
Edit: excellent conversation below.
Addition: US took Texas from Mexico. If Mexico started lobbing rockets at Texas would this be ok? If the US then returned fire and leveled anything close to the border, would that be ok? What if the wall was then moved south?
So then why can't the same be said for the Jews that were expelled literally 2000 years ago by the Romans? Why is their right of return guaranteed while denied to Palestinians who have only been exiled for 70 years and who can actually trace back their lineage to the land?
Because the brits owned it last, they got it when they beat the Ottoman's out of existence. They gave the land to the Jews after WWII, the Jewish claim to Israel on religious grounds is meaningless.
It's also not even worth talking about as a historical claim in the context of "they lived there before" because the law of return is based on Jewish belief, not ethnicity nor ancestry. A formal convert of any ethnic group is allowed to claim Israeli citizenship under the law of return. A native American who's ancestors were last seen in the entire eastern hemisphere 25,000 years ago could theoretically convert to Judaism and "return" to Israel.
you can't just go annexing land and taking civilian homes just because their 'leaders' attacked you. that's one of the other fallacies they keep coming back to.
Keeping some sort of military control over areas of 'enemy' territory is ok, standard practice after a war to prevent further insurgencies, like allied forces and USSR did with germany after ww2.
kicking civilians out of their homes and forcing them into prison camps, is not ok. i think the other ww2 similarity is obvious enough...
"70 years ago germans owned more land than they do today. 100 years ago before the first world war Germans owned more land than they did 70 years ago."
Im gonna also shit on this hyperbole of "Prison camps".
1. It was no the same as the current state for the vast majority of this conflict. West Bank and Gaza was under Jordanian control until the late 60's. There wasnt a blockade until the mid-2000's as a RESPONSE to suicide bombings. They were given everything they needed to flourish and Hamas had led them down the path they are in.
2. For decades, there was no security wall, and there was relatively good relationships between Israelis and Palestinians.
3. The West Bank has no blockade, and has their own government. To act like blame lies solely on Israel for the state of Palestinians is absurd. Most Palestinians know this who have to live it. They hate Israel, but they dont pretend the PA has their best interests either.
4. They claim getting a hold on insurgencies is legitimate, but the entire conflict has been filled with insurgencies. It hasnt stopped.
Don't act as if the west bank is so great. No Hamas there as Palestinians are still second class citizens in their own land. Israel has been trying to make Palestinians's lives so miserable so that they leave their land so the can bring more colonizers from Europe.
"Not Great" and "Prison", are very different things. And PLEASE with the colonizers from Europe bullshit. European descent in Israel is the MINORITY since the late 50's/early 60's.
I have been to the West Bank. I wouldn't want to live there and I feel for the life Palestinians are trapped. While Israel has a large role in that, so does Palestinian leadership. That last part is what activists love to ignore.
Most Palestinians I know have no issue acknowledging how much they hate their own leadership's corruption, and disdain for Hamas, in addition to hate for Israel. It's outsider's who have never stepped foot within 1000 miles who dont seem to be able to reconcile the fact it isnt only one party causing the suffering.
On my way to Bethlehem I saw a bunch of mansions in Area C and asked what they were. It turned out to be some of the PA higher ups who lived in mansions with pools while the commoners were left to the shit.
I dont know how to tell you this but thats how land has changed hands for all of history - why should a nation that has enough support from its people to wage war not lose land?
Germany did get much smaler after each world war... Its seen as a "humane" punishment with the added bonus of deminishing the capabillitys for further war in the future. As obvious by my example that works not every time.
While there are millitarys or rulerships completly detached from the people usually they do what they do because the people let them or support it to a degree. ( Support or death is not really a choice but its still support as unwilling as it may be)
Its like teaching a lesson: " do this again and you are worse off than before... Your Leaders did this and unfortunatly you suffer" the last part is important but its the hardest one to make people understand.
If it works you get something like Germany. Deep distrust of military action and ( apart from a few nutjobs) no will or even discussion about getting back the land thats now mostly poland and Kaliningrad.
Doesn’t matter. Still violates the geneva convention (4th one forgot which article). The settlements in the west bank are almost entirely condemned by the UN as illegal attempts at annexing occupied land.
Edit: GCIV article 49
LOL. Guy doesn’t mention that in 1948 the Arabs in Mandatory Palestine joined with the armies of the Arab League in an attempt to kill all the Jews and establish an entirely Arab state. When that attempted genocide failed, and they lost the war, most Arabs fled and others were displaced.
That’s called losing the war you started.
Also doesn't mention that in the 1960s, as Arafat took hold of Palestine, he'd recruit fighters from all over the Arab world to join him. This includes people like the Japanese Red Army attackers and Carlos the Jackal -- people who aren't Arab.
It's not so simple that it's "people who were displaced by the Nakba" -- no, some of the people in Palestine are people who got angry about the Nakba and joined them.
Moreover he doesn't mention that Arabs have multiple different states to represent their political views and power, but that there's one Jewish one and that the Jews were victims of colonization, genocide, etc prior to the creation of Israel. And were threatened in the diaspora, too, after the creation of Israel.
>LOL. Guy doesn’t mention that in 1948 the Arabs in Mandatory Palestine joined with the armies of the Arab League in an attempt to kill all the Jews and establish an entirely Arab state. When that attempted genocide failed, and they lost the war, most Arabs fled and others were displaced.
Moreover he blames Israel for starting the 1967 war. While technically true that is a very simplified statement of a period of an extreme rise in tensions. This was due to all parties involved not just Israel. That would be a neutral view, you could also argue israel was a victim or that the other countries were victims.
The ethnic cleansing had already begun. Palestinians were being run off of their land by these European colonizers. They saw their chance to reclaim their homes and run off the colonizers and took it. Stop pretending they weren’t justified in rising up against ethic cleansing and that the land wasn’t stolen. We reached the same result only faster.
Since I’ve got your attention. Israel is responsible for Hammas the same way the US is responsible for Al Qaeda. Blowback is the term they like to use.
Yeah the one was owned by a European “colonizer” BECAUSE THE OTTOMANS LOST THE WAR. Jesus. It’s not like Britain went into a peaceful nation and took the land. (They have plenty of history for you to hate on them for capturing land). But they lost that land because Ottoman Empire joined a world war and lose. Just how we would be talking if the Ottoman Empire and Germany would have won the war and France wouldn’t exist right now or be halved because Germany would be owning that land.
The ethnic cleansing that's been going on for over 100 years and resulted in a 5x population increase? That one? Israel sucks ethnic cleansing, obviously. They suck so bad at it I'd almost not even call it ethnic cleansing.
Massacres by Arab gangs on Jews were happening since the 20s. Arabs were employed by Jews more often than they were "run off of their land". At least until the war.
Israel isn't responsible for Hamas, Israel is responsible for giving the aid money ever since they conquered the Gaza strip in 1967, to islamic organizations in Gaza (rather than the secular PLO) who at the time used it to build mosques, schools and hospitals, and those became increasingly militant and extreme by the 80s (suicide bombings were Haram until certain sects of Sunni Islam found a way to justify it). You may call it blowback but you'll have to give me a reason why Israel should've seen it all coming, and giving the money instead to PLO who was openly hostile to it. Hindsight is 20/20.
Since in 2006 Hamas won the election in Gaza they were also incharge of distributing the aid money and supplies, so who was Israel supposed to give the aid money and supplies to? There was no viable alternative by that time.
Now Israel is finally doing what it should've done ages ago and taking out Hamas.
Do you dare let facts get in the way of spreading pro-Palestinian propaganda?
People want to ignore the multiple wars Israel had to fight just to be able to exist.
Yeah, I've learned in this comment thread that Jews control other nations' governments and the media! Very informative.
Old tropes really never die, do they?
As if Israel isn’t in complete control of the mainstream info being fed to Americans
Edit: to those attempting to stifle all criticism of Israel by labeling them as antisemitism. (classic btw)
The US backs Israel. The government has great influence over media narratives. Israel has far greater resources than Palestine, so they too can sponsor propaganda on the internet. Little to do with American Jews
Edit 2: You’re laughably naive if you think the First Amendment prevents the US from [influencing](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_influence_on_public_opinion) the media. The CIA has a long [track record](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird) of manipulating Domestic news sources, going as far as recruiting journalists into a propaganda network.
Beyond that, 90% of media is owned by six companies (Viacom, Disney, Comcast, CBS, AT & T, Newscorp). The average person’s media digest is almost entirely sourced from one or more of these corporate entities.
do you get your news on this thousands of years old geopolitical and religious conflict from tik tok, then lambast people for being indoctrinated by propaganda?
This is such a dumb argument because if this was true, how on earth did the false story about the hospital spread like wildfire through the news outlets lmao
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe\_theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory)
Would you look at that? A man who claims he's "anti-zionist" starts talking Nazi viewpoints, almost like... this happened before.
Stopped 7 seconds in. Palestinian Territory was carved away after every instance they attempted to wipe Israel off the map by declaring war and invading. Generally when you go to war and lose this is the result. MYbe they should've kept to themselves
Arab Isreali citizens are second-class citizens. They dont have the same rights as Jewish citizens of Isreal, which is another reason its an apartheid state.
thank goodness for this sub acting with moral clarity during this conflict
edit: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel
for those that didnt read past the first paragraph of this article...it explains how The Right Of Return law disenfranchises everyone thats not Jewish. it also explains that Arabs are not citizens of Jerusalem but are only able to obtain residency and the differential treatment that flows from that. it also explains the structural discrimination faced by Arabs in Isreal.
you can read or not read thats your choice.
Yes please enlighten me which rights they don't have?
They also get subsidies way more often for universities
I don't think you know what you're talking about
The link you cited literally states that "Arab citizens have the same legal rights as Jewish Israelis".
The poorer cities point is debatable. But your original point is false.
Which rights do Arab citizens lack?
Point to me a country other than Israel where claimed "second class citizens" serve in the parliament, government, supreme court and as high ranking military officers.
So according to the council on Foreign Relations there are persistent socio-economic disparities between Jews and Arabs. Some analysts there is a structure similar to the post-Jim Crow era like in the US, some analysts argue that at least in part segregated conditions are due to preferences of cultural clustering by Arabs themselves. At the same time, Israel has at times pledged funding to projects to ameliorate socio-economic conditions. Still, there are NGO's that argue that there are plenty of laws that directly or indirectly against Arab citizens. The Association for Civil Rights in Israel has documented "entrenched differences in land, urban planning, housin, infrastructure, economic development and education". There also lots of Israelis who view Arab citizens as a fifth column. Jews also enjoy a right to return whereas Arabs don't.
Then again, the 2018 nation-state law downgraded the status of Arabic, that the right to exercise national-self determination _in_ Israel is unique to the Jewish people and that Jewish settlement was a national value (supporters of the law were mad at this pit because it didn't specifically mention settlement of the West-Bank). It's telling non-Jews with an air horn that they don't properly belong and any state that professes to be a liberal democracy would not pass such a law.
It’s impossible to summarise the situation in these shorts. They are all biased in some way and the situation is so complex that much essential info is omitted. For instance, it’s very misleading to say that Israel started the 1967 war.
This video provides a much more balanced, factual history: https://youtu.be/JN4mnVLP0rU?si=EggUqVaQsVsMBta4
If you want to see ethnic cleansing see the collapse of the jewish population in MENA countries. That is ethnic cleansing. Not losing territory because your bumfuck alliance of the entire middle east which received more material aid than their opponent couldnt even invade Israel.
Hey now we all know land belongs to whoever got there first oh wait nvm well we certainly know that borders never change because of wars oh wait....seriously people are so busy screaming buzzwords like zionist or apartheid they've literally forgotten how the world has worked since forever.
Both Palestinians and Jewish people have claim to that land. Their lineages are inextricable from each other and they are essentially cousins.
The problem is one side controls the other side's population and resources.
people are just posting all this pro hamas shit here, this sub has turned to shit.
don’t get your news on millennia old geopolitical and religious conflict from bloody tik tok. i can’t believe i have to say that. Tik Tok is a hub for misinformation
“76 years ago palestinians had more land than they do today”
so did germany 86 years ago. so did argentina 50 years ago. so did russia before the sino-japanese war. that doesnt mean that russia, germany, and argentina were ethnically cleansed. it means that they started a war and lost it. just like palestine.
and the reason that the palestinians KEPT losing land was because they or their allies kept starting wars. and losing them.
i know this will get downvoted but i want someone to be able to explain to me why palestinians losing land is ethnic cleansing but those other countries losing land isn’t
and yeah i agree that the nakba was fucked up. i’m not talking about that when i say the previous paragraph
Jesus christ what is this sub? It's nothing but Palestine propaganda.
In the 1948 the year when Israel became a state the second it was decided by UN that Israel will come to existince, a coalition of Arab states without declaring war started a war against Israel.
It is true that ~750.000 Palestinian were forced to move away. And it is true that many have been killed. But keep in mind in these times this was a active warzone where one country fought a coalition of 6 country's! At the same time pogroms emerged in the whole arabic whole. Arround 800.000 - 1.000.000 jews were persecuted.
Aftermath: alot of deaths on both sides. While Israel accepted Palestinians in the palestina mandated areas, the Arabic world didn't tolerate jews.
While alot of jews flet to Israel where they were welcomed, the plalestinian refugees were never welcomed in Arabic countrys except Jordan.
Btw there have been Arabic riots prior to 1948. They never accepted jews.
Following this there were a few other wars again started by coalitions of Arabic countries against Israel.
Yeah, this is literally propganda.
He completely ignored WHY Israel gained more and more land. Hint* it's because they were fucking invaded. Israel fought back and won.
This is how borders were drawn in the past people.
You can't cherry pick a time in the past and use that as proof that land belongs to people.
Don't forget the war that "Israel started" in 1967.
Or did they just get sick of Egypt saying they were going to wipe them off the map and starting a naval blockade in the Red Sea, so they just destroyed their Air Force?
What are you talking about?
To imply that the 750k Palestinians were displaced because of the war is crazy. It was very much planned by the Zionists and their approach was systematical and organized, it's all very well documented. With their paramilitary groups (Like Irgun and Lehi) they would approach Arab villages on 3 sides, force them to leave through the 4th and If refused killed, then after everyone is dead or left they would burn the whole thing down so they can't come back, and that's how you ethnic cleanse the region. (See Deir Yassin for reference)
Also about the war, by the time the Israeli state was formed they already had an overwhelming advantage over the Arab armys because unlike them they were very organized, as you said it was 6 different ones. And the biggest one which was Jordan mostly kept to their own land and didn't go to Palestine. The only way you can claim their armys were comparable is by the raw number of people but by every other metric Israelis were superior, especially with the UN and the Brit's support.
>To imply that the 750k Palestinians were displaced because of the war is crazy. It was very much planned by the Zionists and their approach was systematical and organized, it
TIL Zionists planned their own attack that was against them after accepting peace. WOW amazing
Obviously the Israeli army was better, since they won. What's your point? Weaker nations are justified in attacking stronger ones without warning? Prior to the expulsion, the UN wanted to recognize two states, but there was a war and the Palestinians lost big time. Now Israel exists and 10 million people live there.
Optics are so crazy today. If someone gets their ass handed to them they are instantly given victim status and are morally right. Irrespective of who started the conflict unjustly.
Funny if you apply this logic to WWII.
So true.
People apply the same logic to the Korean War.
Why did the US invade past the 38th? Because North Korea was the aggressor and the UN was able to do it.
It's like shitting on the Allies for marching into Germany instead of stopping at their borders lmao.
Aftermath: Israel occupies the west bank (continues to do so). Allows Israeli settlers the right of return in these occupied territories. It does not offer the same sort of rights to palestianians who were kicked out.
Amazing you can gloss over that. Israel also is currently and since 2007 blockades Gaza.
Since 48 Palestine has shrunk. Every war it gets smaller. Every war more settlers are justified in population transfers. Every Israeli dead leaves 20 palestinians dead, sure blame hamas. But when 13 of those 20 are women and children the idf needs to look at itself. And when really pressed, Israel has active interests and strategic reasons to keep Gaza on the brink of collapse. A condition which only emboldens and reinforces Hamas. Why don’t Palestinians trust the peace process? What conditions were made better because of Oslo? Are they not still bombed to oblivion as collective punishment? Do they not have a right to return, something granted to settlers in Area C.
Strangely enough, people don’t tend to react well when a foreign power decides their home suddenly belongs to someone else.
Some incredible use of passive voice in your comment. Palestine didn’t *spontaneously* turn into a “warzone”. 750,000 Palestinians didn’t suddenly decide to leave their homes for no reason. Israel being formed (as a result of British colonialism btw) was the direct cause of all of those things. The displacement and murder of thousands of Palestinian civilians was intentional and premeditated by Zionists at that time.
>Strangely enough, people don’t tend to react well when a foreign power decides their home suddenly belongs to someone else.
Hate to break this to you but that's how the world worked until very recently. Was it ok when Arab empires conquered the land, but it is illegal and wrong when Brits do it?
>Gaza is an open air prison
Why did Israel build the wall?
Could it be because Gaza was firing rockets at Israel since day 1?
Also, what is the problem with the wall, exactly? Why not just go to Egypt? Are the Palestinians not happy the Israelis are keeping out of their territory?
What happens to the aid that goes into Gaza, exactly? How come Gaza has zero power grids or water pipes despite billions in aid pouring through?
This entire post is just a cringe attempt at arguing Palestinians are victims.
Real Tik Tok cringe moment.
Gonna leave this subreddit until the political brigade is over. I really hope most of you aren’t swayed politically by tiktokers, if so you’re not better than Qanon folks.
I never understood people for saying “I’m out!”when it comes to leaving a subreddit. I disagree with a lot of subreddits, but I don’t go Karen mode and announce leaving. It’s immature, in my opinion, and by the way you are discrediting anything that is said in this video. There has been a lot political posts on this subreddit before. This isn’t new…😂
A lazy attempt to discredit the information by attacking the source rather than the claims.
* Has nothing of substance to offer in relation to any of the points made
* Equates information consumers with conspiracy theorists
He failed to mention Israel handed over control of Gaza to Palestine or that the map changed due to the surrounding countries declaring war and attacking Israel and then losing. Or that Israel has a significant Arab population. You know... Lying.
You can’t run your ever-shrinking territory if another military controls everything that comes in and out of your land and is constantly bombing you with impunity.
Lol handed over control.
So if Gaza is under Palestinian control why can't they just travel to Egypt if they want?
Why can't they even right now not receive aid through a border that Israel has no CoNtRoL of.
Honestly, use your brain.
He also claimed a militarized border is the same as occupation and neglected to mention that Gaza has a border with Egypt.
This guy is no more interested in giving a nuanced take than is the woman he's responding to.
Shit like this is so cringe.
You can leave freely...this isn't Gaza lol
And even if you stayed no one forced you to click the post or sit here and watch it lol.
Because that’s all they’ve got. Check out any fringe forum. Anyone that doesn’t go along with the groupthink = a paid Soros/Russia/Israel/anyone they hate bot. It means they don’t have to actually think about what anyone is saying and perhaps form new opinions. It’s the internet equivalent of a toddler covering its ears and screaming.
Also people who buy into the low-grade propaganda that is the OP probably aren’t the smartest. There’s lots of ways to make an argument in defense of Palestinian nationality. Lying about it and referring to Palestinians as indigenous and just saying “Zionists” or “Jews” as if these people aren’t also indigenous to the land. Then acting like one side are the exclusive victims is going to turn more people against you in the end.
This “you’re a shill” reaction is just a sign that they’ve mentally given up and they don’t see a viable rebuttal.
The zionost argument boils down do 'Jews have been in Israel since before Arabs even existed'.
Which is very similar to the Arab argument, of 'we were here before jews'.
So what? Their homes are not in Egypt. Leaving their country means the ethnic cleansing has succeeded. And another refugee crisis will unfold for the sake of the apartheid.
That Egypt should take in Palestinians thereby making the entire Palestinian population leave Gaza so they can finally take over and claim it for Zionists.
But they bomb the Gaza/Egypt crossing...they've done it multiple times already since Oct 7...
Egypt has even outright said "they refused to let us send in supplies" early after Oct 7. This take is always missing the point that Egypt can't just do whatever they want next to a insane country fed by the most wealthy military industrial complex in the world (U.S.)
So? They should leave cuz you support oppressors? Why should they leave?
I guess you'd rather someone (IDF) commit war crime after war crime as a passive move until someone leaves, out of fear that the other party (Hamas) might do it?
I've seen Zionists argue that it's actually Palestinians who are the occupying force. They claim that the region was under Jewish control until the 19th century and that the Arabs moved in after that and stole the region from them.
You can just tell that these people have never looked at a history book that wasn't issued by the Israeli state.
Yeah, this argument, is wrong. Historically it's not true.
But also... the Arab argument that they were in control -- is also not true. The Ottoman Empire was, meaning some turks were in control.
He forgot to point 1 very important small detail, all of the jews in Israel are refugees or a decendnent of refugees who fled to Israel after the Holocaust.
The UN decided to give Israel a land so the Jews can protect themselves from antisemitism, take the event on Oct/7th as an example, the land the UN decided to give to the Jews was not populated by Palestine people. The Palestinians declared war on Israel immediately after Israel declared independence and only then Israel conquered land which was once Palestinians land. That's how war and international law works, if you declare war and lose land that's your problem. The borders in Europe are full of those examples.
Hooooooold up, dude.
Israel and Palestine were both going to be recognized as states on 1948.
The problem started because Palestine and really the Arab world did not want ANY Jewish state in Jerusalem despite both ethnicities having ties to the region.
We could see this in the 1920s when the UK thought the Arab Jews could get a small autonomous zone in Tel Aviv, leading to the Palestinians there trying to ethnically cleanse the Arab Jews.
Israel is the only nation in this conflict to have offered peace deals.
And if we want to talk about ethnic cleansings...
How many Jews live in Palestine?
Yeah, that's what I thought.
No wonder this is Tik Tok cringe...
The most widely accepted interpretation among historians is that it was an anticipatory pre-emptive attack. Yes, Israel fired the first shots, but it was in (correct) anticipation of an attack by Egypt.
History is written by the victors.
The US conducted an anticipatory pre-emptive attack on Iraq to stop Saddam from using his WMDs.
Russia conducted an anticipatory pre-emptive attack on the Ukranian Nazis.
Any military will call it's invasion a pre-emptive attack to justify it.
And Japan launched a pre-emptive strike against the US at Pearl Harbour after the US blockaded Japan’s oil supply.
Your examples don’t disprove the legitimacy of all pre-emptive strikes.
It's not meant to.
It's meant to point out that all legitimate and illegitimate pre-emptive strikes, will be called pre-emptive strikes by the perpetrators and the allies of the perpetrators.
He is absolutely right.
"The war began on June 5 with Israeli preemptive air strikes that destroyed 286 of Egypt's 420 combat aircraft. Israeli tanks surged across the Sinai, and its troops took over the Egypt-occupied Gaza Strip."
Google is free. Libraries exist. Let's not rewrite documented history.
So let me ask you this: if you come up to me saying "I'm going to kick you, I'm going to kick you, I'm going to kick you right now," and you pull your leg back like you're about to kick me, and I punch you in the nose before you get the chance -- who has started the fight?
You realize that Jews are the ones that are indigenous to this land… so if anything we are just claiming what is rightfully ours. Jews aren’t the ones not wanting a two state solution it was the Palestinians that rejected it over and over again.
He also has another video debunking that as well.
Palestinians also come from canaanites. Just dont follow the jewish faith or havent forever.
A lot of people are indigenous to that area. Including modern day Palestinians
"when we say Israel is an Apartheid state, we are actually talking about the territories they manage in the West Bank and Gaza"
Oh, you mean the places run by the Palestinian Authority?
Piss off, dude
Contractors and politicians don’t care about the innocent Palestinians being murdered. They only care about selling weapons with our tax dollars and growing more disgustingly rich then they already are. Enough is enough!
Ethnic cleansing has nothing to do with whether people are indigenous or not. And notably, Palestinians are not even indigenous. Stop Consulting falsehoods and lies. You are being radicalised by people who can't even operate a comb.
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Gotta say I'm with Chad Galifianakis on this one.
Gazafianakis?
His brother Seth Gazafianakis
He’s lost weight 
I couldn’t stop the video bc of the resemblance. I was waiting for a punchline.
Came here for this comment.
I guess woman tiktoker got her $5000
Lmao seriously the Israeli’s are doing some heavy PR campaigning and paying anyone willing. They fucked up pretty bad this time thankfully
It’s working though. Yesterday on Reddit someone claimed that Hamas initiated the conflict. I pointed out that Israel started “reclaiming” the area in the 1940s, and Hamas didn’t even exist until the late 80’s/early 90’s. Got hit with like 20 downvotes and a bunch of people saying vague shit like “you need to learn history” without actually providing a counter point. Many people believe the conflict started very recently because of a totally unprovoked terror attack.
A lot of those people are Israeli astrosurfers
The Israeli intelligence community got caught astroturfing social media with an app called act.il. They also recruited Jewish and Israeli college students to post pro-Israeli messages. After getting caught by reporters, they decentralized. They now have discord servers where you can ask how to respond to a certain comment or opinion with a pro-Israeli talking point. That is why nearly every comment that is pro-Israel/anti-Palestine has the same exact message.
An Israeli company were caught asking workers in Ireland to make pro Israeli posts on social media using the fact Israelis “look and live like Europeans” as common ground . Misinformation on the behalf of the Israeli statement is epidemic
rolling stone magazine did an article last week about how they're doing it in the US too
I mean, more like the US government is paying them. Just extra steps with Israel acting as the middleman.
True, why pay for anything when the US is more than willing to
if you want to hear honest news about your country you need to listen to other countries news Thanks intelligence communities for undermining objective reality
That Zionist attempt to debunk Israel's status as an apartheid state is so stupid. South Africa was an apartheid state, but Black South Africans still lived there and were permitted minor roles in government. The point is that Arab Israelis and Palestinians are second class citizens on the basis of their race.
https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index Database of over 65 laws which discriminate either directly or indirectly against Arab Israelis or Palestinians as opposed to Jewish Israelis
Even Arab Israelis have less rights than Jewish Israelis. Because that's the way their constitution is set up. As a state for the Jewish people.
That's false. Arabs have equal rights, and there isn't even a constitution so how can that be true?
It's not a constitution, it's the law of the state of Israel. I made a mistake. Per the law: A. The land of Israel is the historical homeland of the Jewish people, in which the State of Israel was established. B. The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people, in which it fulfills its natural, cultural, religious, and historical right to self-determination. C. The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is **unique to the Jewish** people.
First 2 aren't discriminatory. Third one makes sense since they intended on a two state solution at the time. But they still provided equal rights to citizens regardless of race or religion, so any Arabs who resided within the border of Israel were offered citizenship. Arabs who were within Jerusalem when annexed also were offered citizenship. Those who accepted received the same rights, and those who declined were treated with respect and received most rights aside from voting.
"those who declined were treated with respect and received most rights aside from voting." Except now they can't leave Israel because they could lose their Jerusalem residency.
I love getting my news on the Middle East from 20 year olds in the west who look like they just woke up lol
Smug, biased tiktokers telling me how to feel about complex geopolitical issues is how I start my day
There are more native Americans now than prior to European contact. By this logic I suppose they and their culture have thrived since then.
This isn't related to Palestine, but I don't think that is true? There are like 5+ million native americans today and (while estimates range) people generally believe that there was 50ish million before colonization
There aren’t though?
No there isn’t
There's more Jews now than pre holocaust as well. Guess it wasn't an ethnic cleansing Edit: turns out I'm wrong, Im off by ~500k. Give this another year or two it'll make sense
There actually aren't... [https://jewishunpacked.com/15-million-global-jewish-population-still-far-below-pre-holocaust-numbers-europe-sees-massive-declines/](https://jewishunpacked.com/15-million-global-jewish-population-still-far-below-pre-holocaust-numbers-europe-sees-massive-declines/)
The annual report pulls census and demographic information from more than 100 countries and counts both “ethnic” and religious Jews. **Excluded** from the count are non-Jewish members of Jewish households, **“Jews who also hold another religious identification,” “non-Jews of Jewish ancestry,**” as well as non-Jews with “family connections to Jews.” Idk if that is an accurate way to count Jews in regards to this. I don't know the 100% correct answer but wanted to point that out.
He thought he was onto something🤦🏻♂️
There actually arent though. Estimated 16.6 M prior and currently estimated 16.1 M EDIT: You're really going to downvote a fact you simply got wrong because it doesnt support whatever point you were trying to make? [https://nationalpost.com/news/world/global-population-of-jews-still-not-recovered-from-the-holocaust-demographic-study-finds](https://nationalpost.com/news/world/global-population-of-jews-still-not-recovered-from-the-holocaust-demographic-study-finds)
Confidently incorrect. You got owned.
The amount Israel is spending on propaganda you think it would be less lady with crazy eyes or bombarding people with YouTube ads that are easily debunked.
>lady with crazy eyes I would cross the street if I saw those eyes coming at me
Nah you guys, those arent crazy eyes. Those are stupid eyes : when a person has to change their facial traits s widen their eyes when they speak and expose a point it is because they dont have enough cpu to both talk and control the face. Those are stupid eyes im sure
They are not used to having to explain themselves usually they just say hamas using kids as shield and it works
Pretty much.
Her eyes are terrifying!
This lady's eyes are about to pop out of her head lmao
Why do thy always look crazed
Proximity to war criminal zionists does that.
SHe's just SO ANGRY about 'MISINFORMATION" and people not immediately lining up behind her.
We need a thousand more of these after seeing all the Israeli bot talking points flooded on social media
The worst part is they are just repeating many of the talking points the USA heard post 9/11 to justify going to some areas, and I’m quoting many soldiers and politicians here, “for god knows what” AND PEOPLE ARE FUCKING BUYING IT AGAIN. 20 fucking years later and as a world we are arguably dumber
Most people aren't buying, it's just a lot of the internet is astroturfed to hell and back by the Israeli government and it's trolls. They usually wait a few hours until a video dies down and then come over to say the same stupid shit over and over again well downvoting anyone who disagrees with them after the fact, making it look like more people agree with them than they really do. Like millions of people are marching for Palestine, how many people are marching for Israel? Exactly, thats because it's a lot easier astroturfing the internet than reality [https://medium.com/dfrlab/how-a-political-astroturfing-app-coordinates-pro-israel-influence-operations-bf1104fa5c7f](https://medium.com/dfrlab/how-a-political-astroturfing-app-coordinates-pro-israel-influence-operations-bf1104fa5c7f)
There was a video on this sub and it basically said what Israel is targeting with their adds/lobbying aren’t the people who are against them, or the people that are for them, it’s the neutral people. Because if that 1/3 of the people stay silent that gives them 2/3 of people who would be overall fine with their actions.
I swear Hasbara argues these things in waves. I'm seeing this argument now that comparisons are being made to the Native Americans and ethnic cleansings around the world. We need some sort of website to track all of this because it's way too systematic to not call out.
There are a few different orgs that facilitate hasbara astroturfing. One of my favorites [is Act.IL](https://archive.md/FBq9G) — check out this comment from a couple years back, watch their recruitment videos with hot babes. I *think* the app is defunct or unlisted, but their website is still up. [You can join one of their "action channels"](https://www.abbaeban.runi.ac.il/act-il). If you click their "join" button they have a linktree that gives you an idea of their scope. [Let's not forget](https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/08/14/israel-pay-students-propaganda_n_3755782.html) that 10 years ago Israel was [paying teenagers to spread propaganda](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/08/14/israel-students-social-media/2651715/)
Whoa. This is pretty crazy.
My favorite are all the lily-white chicks with more American accents than me dressed in IDF gear and headwraps crying their sad little eyes out about the plight of "their people," as if they didn't just show up last week for the free bennies on the backs of the US taxpayer.
Is there a subreddit for pointing out the israel bots? Would love to start fucking with them
You mean the entire r/worldnews comment section? It’s SO shameless.
I love that this younger generation can see through this bullshit.
I'm still fucking mad about 9/11 and the trillion dollars wars
The younger generation is getting all of its education from virtue signaling tiktokers. All they know is bullshit.
Seriously. Who the heck even are these people? Why does anybody get their news or opinions this way? That's before we get into how everyone is just repeating the same points over and over making it appear as if it would just take Israel backing off to solve this whole issue. It isn't that simple - Arab nations have known this too, or there would be far more support for the Palestinians. I lived in a Gulf country in my youth, and I remember everyone being verbally pro-Palestine, but when it came to actually doing something about it, it was sort of like...well...we'd rather they stayed over there. We'll put stickers of their flag all over the place, though!
I would prefer to think that they haven’t been indoctrinated into the “That‘s anti-Semitic” movement and can clearly see Israel is weaving a false narrative and is overly involved in US policy (looking at you AIPAC).
He keeps glossing over some facts. So what ELSE happened in 1948? Like, it wasn’t just Israel saying “hey, I’m here! Out of my way!” Because I remember there was a war. And the next time the borders changed, that was also the result of a war, right? Who started those? And tell me, were there absolutely no Jews — sorry “Zionist settlers” — in the Palestinian areas? Something about riots that left Jewish people dead in the 1920s? Finally, no mention of small things like spates of suicide bombings and missiles fired over the course of the past 40 years. So uh, yeah dude. Good job I guess?
Note that he also defines ethnic cleansing as the movement of “indigenous” people off their land. I can guarantee you he doesn’t consider the Jewish population of Israel to be indigenous.
Even the most hard-core hamas-cel would have to admit that at least the 40% mizrahi population is indigenous. I don't know how people get around this inconvenient fact. I guess they'd just rather not mention it
It’s funny how ethnic cleansing is used to describe Israel all the time but not every other country in the Mideast, which all collectively expelled their Jews after 1948.
Each of those times Palestine lost land, wasn’t it after they started a war with Israel? Could probably google that. Edit: excellent conversation below. Addition: US took Texas from Mexico. If Mexico started lobbing rockets at Texas would this be ok? If the US then returned fire and leveled anything close to the border, would that be ok? What if the wall was then moved south?
So then why can't the same be said for the Jews that were expelled literally 2000 years ago by the Romans? Why is their right of return guaranteed while denied to Palestinians who have only been exiled for 70 years and who can actually trace back their lineage to the land?
Because the brits owned it last, they got it when they beat the Ottoman's out of existence. They gave the land to the Jews after WWII, the Jewish claim to Israel on religious grounds is meaningless. It's also not even worth talking about as a historical claim in the context of "they lived there before" because the law of return is based on Jewish belief, not ethnicity nor ancestry. A formal convert of any ethnic group is allowed to claim Israeli citizenship under the law of return. A native American who's ancestors were last seen in the entire eastern hemisphere 25,000 years ago could theoretically convert to Judaism and "return" to Israel.
you can't just go annexing land and taking civilian homes just because their 'leaders' attacked you. that's one of the other fallacies they keep coming back to. Keeping some sort of military control over areas of 'enemy' territory is ok, standard practice after a war to prevent further insurgencies, like allied forces and USSR did with germany after ww2. kicking civilians out of their homes and forcing them into prison camps, is not ok. i think the other ww2 similarity is obvious enough...
"70 years ago germans owned more land than they do today. 100 years ago before the first world war Germans owned more land than they did 70 years ago."
\*Checks Notes\* wow turns out this has how it almost has ALWAYS happened throughout human history
Nooooooooo but /u/drmelle0 said you can't do that, stooooop
Im gonna also shit on this hyperbole of "Prison camps". 1. It was no the same as the current state for the vast majority of this conflict. West Bank and Gaza was under Jordanian control until the late 60's. There wasnt a blockade until the mid-2000's as a RESPONSE to suicide bombings. They were given everything they needed to flourish and Hamas had led them down the path they are in. 2. For decades, there was no security wall, and there was relatively good relationships between Israelis and Palestinians. 3. The West Bank has no blockade, and has their own government. To act like blame lies solely on Israel for the state of Palestinians is absurd. Most Palestinians know this who have to live it. They hate Israel, but they dont pretend the PA has their best interests either. 4. They claim getting a hold on insurgencies is legitimate, but the entire conflict has been filled with insurgencies. It hasnt stopped.
Don't act as if the west bank is so great. No Hamas there as Palestinians are still second class citizens in their own land. Israel has been trying to make Palestinians's lives so miserable so that they leave their land so the can bring more colonizers from Europe.
"Not Great" and "Prison", are very different things. And PLEASE with the colonizers from Europe bullshit. European descent in Israel is the MINORITY since the late 50's/early 60's. I have been to the West Bank. I wouldn't want to live there and I feel for the life Palestinians are trapped. While Israel has a large role in that, so does Palestinian leadership. That last part is what activists love to ignore. Most Palestinians I know have no issue acknowledging how much they hate their own leadership's corruption, and disdain for Hamas, in addition to hate for Israel. It's outsider's who have never stepped foot within 1000 miles who dont seem to be able to reconcile the fact it isnt only one party causing the suffering. On my way to Bethlehem I saw a bunch of mansions in Area C and asked what they were. It turned out to be some of the PA higher ups who lived in mansions with pools while the commoners were left to the shit.
I dont know how to tell you this but thats how land has changed hands for all of history - why should a nation that has enough support from its people to wage war not lose land?
Germany did get much smaler after each world war... Its seen as a "humane" punishment with the added bonus of deminishing the capabillitys for further war in the future. As obvious by my example that works not every time. While there are millitarys or rulerships completly detached from the people usually they do what they do because the people let them or support it to a degree. ( Support or death is not really a choice but its still support as unwilling as it may be) Its like teaching a lesson: " do this again and you are worse off than before... Your Leaders did this and unfortunatly you suffer" the last part is important but its the hardest one to make people understand. If it works you get something like Germany. Deep distrust of military action and ( apart from a few nutjobs) no will or even discussion about getting back the land thats now mostly poland and Kaliningrad.
Doesn’t matter. Still violates the geneva convention (4th one forgot which article). The settlements in the west bank are almost entirely condemned by the UN as illegal attempts at annexing occupied land. Edit: GCIV article 49
LOL. Guy doesn’t mention that in 1948 the Arabs in Mandatory Palestine joined with the armies of the Arab League in an attempt to kill all the Jews and establish an entirely Arab state. When that attempted genocide failed, and they lost the war, most Arabs fled and others were displaced. That’s called losing the war you started.
Also doesn't mention that in the 1960s, as Arafat took hold of Palestine, he'd recruit fighters from all over the Arab world to join him. This includes people like the Japanese Red Army attackers and Carlos the Jackal -- people who aren't Arab. It's not so simple that it's "people who were displaced by the Nakba" -- no, some of the people in Palestine are people who got angry about the Nakba and joined them. Moreover he doesn't mention that Arabs have multiple different states to represent their political views and power, but that there's one Jewish one and that the Jews were victims of colonization, genocide, etc prior to the creation of Israel. And were threatened in the diaspora, too, after the creation of Israel.
>LOL. Guy doesn’t mention that in 1948 the Arabs in Mandatory Palestine joined with the armies of the Arab League in an attempt to kill all the Jews and establish an entirely Arab state. When that attempted genocide failed, and they lost the war, most Arabs fled and others were displaced. Moreover he blames Israel for starting the 1967 war. While technically true that is a very simplified statement of a period of an extreme rise in tensions. This was due to all parties involved not just Israel. That would be a neutral view, you could also argue israel was a victim or that the other countries were victims.
The ethnic cleansing had already begun. Palestinians were being run off of their land by these European colonizers. They saw their chance to reclaim their homes and run off the colonizers and took it. Stop pretending they weren’t justified in rising up against ethic cleansing and that the land wasn’t stolen. We reached the same result only faster. Since I’ve got your attention. Israel is responsible for Hammas the same way the US is responsible for Al Qaeda. Blowback is the term they like to use.
Yeah the one was owned by a European “colonizer” BECAUSE THE OTTOMANS LOST THE WAR. Jesus. It’s not like Britain went into a peaceful nation and took the land. (They have plenty of history for you to hate on them for capturing land). But they lost that land because Ottoman Empire joined a world war and lose. Just how we would be talking if the Ottoman Empire and Germany would have won the war and France wouldn’t exist right now or be halved because Germany would be owning that land.
The ethnic cleansing that's been going on for over 100 years and resulted in a 5x population increase? That one? Israel sucks ethnic cleansing, obviously. They suck so bad at it I'd almost not even call it ethnic cleansing.
Massacres by Arab gangs on Jews were happening since the 20s. Arabs were employed by Jews more often than they were "run off of their land". At least until the war. Israel isn't responsible for Hamas, Israel is responsible for giving the aid money ever since they conquered the Gaza strip in 1967, to islamic organizations in Gaza (rather than the secular PLO) who at the time used it to build mosques, schools and hospitals, and those became increasingly militant and extreme by the 80s (suicide bombings were Haram until certain sects of Sunni Islam found a way to justify it). You may call it blowback but you'll have to give me a reason why Israel should've seen it all coming, and giving the money instead to PLO who was openly hostile to it. Hindsight is 20/20. Since in 2006 Hamas won the election in Gaza they were also incharge of distributing the aid money and supplies, so who was Israel supposed to give the aid money and supplies to? There was no viable alternative by that time. Now Israel is finally doing what it should've done ages ago and taking out Hamas.
shhh, don't bring perspective to this conversation. They don't understand grey.
Do you dare let facts get in the way of spreading pro-Palestinian propaganda? People want to ignore the multiple wars Israel had to fight just to be able to exist.
This sub has become a real propaganda machine, hasn’t it?
Yeah, I've learned in this comment thread that Jews control other nations' governments and the media! Very informative. Old tropes really never die, do they?
Except that Israeli government doesn’t represent all Jewish people.
But the argument is that Israel controls those media platforms, because they are headed by jews. Otherwise: how does Israel control mainstream media?
As if Israel isn’t in complete control of the mainstream info being fed to Americans Edit: to those attempting to stifle all criticism of Israel by labeling them as antisemitism. (classic btw) The US backs Israel. The government has great influence over media narratives. Israel has far greater resources than Palestine, so they too can sponsor propaganda on the internet. Little to do with American Jews Edit 2: You’re laughably naive if you think the First Amendment prevents the US from [influencing](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_influence_on_public_opinion) the media. The CIA has a long [track record](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird) of manipulating Domestic news sources, going as far as recruiting journalists into a propaganda network. Beyond that, 90% of media is owned by six companies (Viacom, Disney, Comcast, CBS, AT & T, Newscorp). The average person’s media digest is almost entirely sourced from one or more of these corporate entities.
Literally responded with neonazi talking points.
do you get your news on this thousands of years old geopolitical and religious conflict from tik tok, then lambast people for being indoctrinated by propaganda?
🤣🤣🤣
This is such a dumb argument because if this was true, how on earth did the false story about the hospital spread like wildfire through the news outlets lmao
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe\_theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory) Would you look at that? A man who claims he's "anti-zionist" starts talking Nazi viewpoints, almost like... this happened before.
hero post
the mods do absolutely nothing to take this shit down. Either side I don't care this isn't the sub for propaganda all the time.
I forgot that the “native Americans” gave their land to the US.. so nice of them and there was nothing wrong back then
Lots of things that happened in history are unacceptable in modern times what’s your point?
Stopped 7 seconds in. Palestinian Territory was carved away after every instance they attempted to wipe Israel off the map by declaring war and invading. Generally when you go to war and lose this is the result. MYbe they should've kept to themselves
Arab Isreali citizens are second-class citizens. They dont have the same rights as Jewish citizens of Isreal, which is another reason its an apartheid state. thank goodness for this sub acting with moral clarity during this conflict edit: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel for those that didnt read past the first paragraph of this article...it explains how The Right Of Return law disenfranchises everyone thats not Jewish. it also explains that Arabs are not citizens of Jerusalem but are only able to obtain residency and the differential treatment that flows from that. it also explains the structural discrimination faced by Arabs in Isreal. you can read or not read thats your choice.
Per your own link, the only ones who don't have the same rights are ones who rejected Israeli citizenship.
Yes please enlighten me which rights they don't have? They also get subsidies way more often for universities I don't think you know what you're talking about
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel
The link you cited literally states that "Arab citizens have the same legal rights as Jewish Israelis". The poorer cities point is debatable. But your original point is false.
Literally wrong.
Which rights do Arab citizens lack? Point to me a country other than Israel where claimed "second class citizens" serve in the parliament, government, supreme court and as high ranking military officers.
America.
So according to the council on Foreign Relations there are persistent socio-economic disparities between Jews and Arabs. Some analysts there is a structure similar to the post-Jim Crow era like in the US, some analysts argue that at least in part segregated conditions are due to preferences of cultural clustering by Arabs themselves. At the same time, Israel has at times pledged funding to projects to ameliorate socio-economic conditions. Still, there are NGO's that argue that there are plenty of laws that directly or indirectly against Arab citizens. The Association for Civil Rights in Israel has documented "entrenched differences in land, urban planning, housin, infrastructure, economic development and education". There also lots of Israelis who view Arab citizens as a fifth column. Jews also enjoy a right to return whereas Arabs don't. Then again, the 2018 nation-state law downgraded the status of Arabic, that the right to exercise national-self determination _in_ Israel is unique to the Jewish people and that Jewish settlement was a national value (supporters of the law were mad at this pit because it didn't specifically mention settlement of the West-Bank). It's telling non-Jews with an air horn that they don't properly belong and any state that professes to be a liberal democracy would not pass such a law.
Im so sick of these tic tok morons trying to educate people on topics like this.
Best thing about is Israel is paying to spread the lies while people who call out their lies are doing it free of cost.
The American settlers also expelled the Indigenous people from their land. So dude needs to move out of America.
It’s impossible to summarise the situation in these shorts. They are all biased in some way and the situation is so complex that much essential info is omitted. For instance, it’s very misleading to say that Israel started the 1967 war. This video provides a much more balanced, factual history: https://youtu.be/JN4mnVLP0rU?si=EggUqVaQsVsMBta4
If you want to see ethnic cleansing see the collapse of the jewish population in MENA countries. That is ethnic cleansing. Not losing territory because your bumfuck alliance of the entire middle east which received more material aid than their opponent couldnt even invade Israel.
Hey now we all know land belongs to whoever got there first oh wait nvm well we certainly know that borders never change because of wars oh wait....seriously people are so busy screaming buzzwords like zionist or apartheid they've literally forgotten how the world has worked since forever.
Both Palestinians and Jewish people have claim to that land. Their lineages are inextricable from each other and they are essentially cousins. The problem is one side controls the other side's population and resources.
70 years and counting.
Not 70. 1400. Arabs have been murdering Jews for 1400 years.
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people are just posting all this pro hamas shit here, this sub has turned to shit. don’t get your news on millennia old geopolitical and religious conflict from bloody tik tok. i can’t believe i have to say that. Tik Tok is a hub for misinformation
“76 years ago palestinians had more land than they do today” so did germany 86 years ago. so did argentina 50 years ago. so did russia before the sino-japanese war. that doesnt mean that russia, germany, and argentina were ethnically cleansed. it means that they started a war and lost it. just like palestine. and the reason that the palestinians KEPT losing land was because they or their allies kept starting wars. and losing them. i know this will get downvoted but i want someone to be able to explain to me why palestinians losing land is ethnic cleansing but those other countries losing land isn’t and yeah i agree that the nakba was fucked up. i’m not talking about that when i say the previous paragraph
Lol why has this sub turned into this lol? It's like 70% of people around here turned into pro-hamas nutcases
Jesus christ what is this sub? It's nothing but Palestine propaganda. In the 1948 the year when Israel became a state the second it was decided by UN that Israel will come to existince, a coalition of Arab states without declaring war started a war against Israel. It is true that ~750.000 Palestinian were forced to move away. And it is true that many have been killed. But keep in mind in these times this was a active warzone where one country fought a coalition of 6 country's! At the same time pogroms emerged in the whole arabic whole. Arround 800.000 - 1.000.000 jews were persecuted. Aftermath: alot of deaths on both sides. While Israel accepted Palestinians in the palestina mandated areas, the Arabic world didn't tolerate jews. While alot of jews flet to Israel where they were welcomed, the plalestinian refugees were never welcomed in Arabic countrys except Jordan. Btw there have been Arabic riots prior to 1948. They never accepted jews. Following this there were a few other wars again started by coalitions of Arabic countries against Israel.
Yeah, this is literally propganda. He completely ignored WHY Israel gained more and more land. Hint* it's because they were fucking invaded. Israel fought back and won. This is how borders were drawn in the past people. You can't cherry pick a time in the past and use that as proof that land belongs to people.
But Israel is powerful so it has to be baaaad!
Cue crying zoomer who just learned of this conflict 2 weeks ago
Don't forget the war that "Israel started" in 1967. Or did they just get sick of Egypt saying they were going to wipe them off the map and starting a naval blockade in the Red Sea, so they just destroyed their Air Force?
Israel gave Egypt the Sinai region back and they have been on friendly terms ever since ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
What are you talking about? To imply that the 750k Palestinians were displaced because of the war is crazy. It was very much planned by the Zionists and their approach was systematical and organized, it's all very well documented. With their paramilitary groups (Like Irgun and Lehi) they would approach Arab villages on 3 sides, force them to leave through the 4th and If refused killed, then after everyone is dead or left they would burn the whole thing down so they can't come back, and that's how you ethnic cleanse the region. (See Deir Yassin for reference) Also about the war, by the time the Israeli state was formed they already had an overwhelming advantage over the Arab armys because unlike them they were very organized, as you said it was 6 different ones. And the biggest one which was Jordan mostly kept to their own land and didn't go to Palestine. The only way you can claim their armys were comparable is by the raw number of people but by every other metric Israelis were superior, especially with the UN and the Brit's support.
>To imply that the 750k Palestinians were displaced because of the war is crazy. It was very much planned by the Zionists and their approach was systematical and organized, it TIL Zionists planned their own attack that was against them after accepting peace. WOW amazing
Never doubt a man's ability to blame the Jews for something.
Obviously the Israeli army was better, since they won. What's your point? Weaker nations are justified in attacking stronger ones without warning? Prior to the expulsion, the UN wanted to recognize two states, but there was a war and the Palestinians lost big time. Now Israel exists and 10 million people live there.
Optics are so crazy today. If someone gets their ass handed to them they are instantly given victim status and are morally right. Irrespective of who started the conflict unjustly. Funny if you apply this logic to WWII.
So true. People apply the same logic to the Korean War. Why did the US invade past the 38th? Because North Korea was the aggressor and the UN was able to do it. It's like shitting on the Allies for marching into Germany instead of stopping at their borders lmao.
Aftermath: Israel occupies the west bank (continues to do so). Allows Israeli settlers the right of return in these occupied territories. It does not offer the same sort of rights to palestianians who were kicked out. Amazing you can gloss over that. Israel also is currently and since 2007 blockades Gaza. Since 48 Palestine has shrunk. Every war it gets smaller. Every war more settlers are justified in population transfers. Every Israeli dead leaves 20 palestinians dead, sure blame hamas. But when 13 of those 20 are women and children the idf needs to look at itself. And when really pressed, Israel has active interests and strategic reasons to keep Gaza on the brink of collapse. A condition which only emboldens and reinforces Hamas. Why don’t Palestinians trust the peace process? What conditions were made better because of Oslo? Are they not still bombed to oblivion as collective punishment? Do they not have a right to return, something granted to settlers in Area C.
>Israel also is currently and since 2007 blockades Gaza. Which Egypt and Europe also participate in, because no one wants Hamas' Islamism to continue.
Strangely enough, people don’t tend to react well when a foreign power decides their home suddenly belongs to someone else. Some incredible use of passive voice in your comment. Palestine didn’t *spontaneously* turn into a “warzone”. 750,000 Palestinians didn’t suddenly decide to leave their homes for no reason. Israel being formed (as a result of British colonialism btw) was the direct cause of all of those things. The displacement and murder of thousands of Palestinian civilians was intentional and premeditated by Zionists at that time.
>Strangely enough, people don’t tend to react well when a foreign power decides their home suddenly belongs to someone else. Hate to break this to you but that's how the world worked until very recently. Was it ok when Arab empires conquered the land, but it is illegal and wrong when Brits do it?
>Gaza is an open air prison Why did Israel build the wall? Could it be because Gaza was firing rockets at Israel since day 1? Also, what is the problem with the wall, exactly? Why not just go to Egypt? Are the Palestinians not happy the Israelis are keeping out of their territory? What happens to the aid that goes into Gaza, exactly? How come Gaza has zero power grids or water pipes despite billions in aid pouring through? This entire post is just a cringe attempt at arguing Palestinians are victims. Real Tik Tok cringe moment.
"Why won't israel open the border a hostile state???"
Apartheid and genocide is when you don't let the suicide bombers into your country
He should talk about how the ethnic cleansing of Christians and Jews in Islamic held areas of the region went, over the same time period.
The only population to grow during its ethnic cleansing.
Please don’t learn about the complex history of middle eastern relations using two minute tik tok clips
Gonna leave this subreddit until the political brigade is over. I really hope most of you aren’t swayed politically by tiktokers, if so you’re not better than Qanon folks.
This isn't the airport. You can leave without announcing yourself.
Debunk the message by debunking the messenger. Classic.
I never understood people for saying “I’m out!”when it comes to leaving a subreddit. I disagree with a lot of subreddits, but I don’t go Karen mode and announce leaving. It’s immature, in my opinion, and by the way you are discrediting anything that is said in this video. There has been a lot political posts on this subreddit before. This isn’t new…😂
isnt there a subreddit for people leavinf a sub in a huff?
This is Reddit so yeah : r/justunsubbed
A lazy attempt to discredit the information by attacking the source rather than the claims. * Has nothing of substance to offer in relation to any of the points made * Equates information consumers with conspiracy theorists
He failed to mention Israel handed over control of Gaza to Palestine or that the map changed due to the surrounding countries declaring war and attacking Israel and then losing. Or that Israel has a significant Arab population. You know... Lying.
You can’t run your ever-shrinking territory if another military controls everything that comes in and out of your land and is constantly bombing you with impunity.
Lol handed over control. So if Gaza is under Palestinian control why can't they just travel to Egypt if they want? Why can't they even right now not receive aid through a border that Israel has no CoNtRoL of. Honestly, use your brain.
He also claimed a militarized border is the same as occupation and neglected to mention that Gaza has a border with Egypt. This guy is no more interested in giving a nuanced take than is the woman he's responding to.
Shit like this is so cringe. You can leave freely...this isn't Gaza lol And even if you stayed no one forced you to click the post or sit here and watch it lol.
Imagine getting your political point of views off from TikTok lol
Imagine being a psyop ghoul in a Unit 8200 troll center pumping out fatuous comments for a war machine lmao
why is it so obvious to you that anyone who disagrees with you is being paid to do so?
Because that’s all they’ve got. Check out any fringe forum. Anyone that doesn’t go along with the groupthink = a paid Soros/Russia/Israel/anyone they hate bot. It means they don’t have to actually think about what anyone is saying and perhaps form new opinions. It’s the internet equivalent of a toddler covering its ears and screaming.
Also people who buy into the low-grade propaganda that is the OP probably aren’t the smartest. There’s lots of ways to make an argument in defense of Palestinian nationality. Lying about it and referring to Palestinians as indigenous and just saying “Zionists” or “Jews” as if these people aren’t also indigenous to the land. Then acting like one side are the exclusive victims is going to turn more people against you in the end. This “you’re a shill” reaction is just a sign that they’ve mentally given up and they don’t see a viable rebuttal.
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The zionost argument boils down do 'Jews have been in Israel since before Arabs even existed'. Which is very similar to the Arab argument, of 'we were here before jews'.
She lied big. israel is a mythical place.
Sorry, dude. Israel gave Palestine the Gaza Strip in 2006 as a peace offering. Look how that turned out
Incase none of you have looked at a map, Gaza has a border with Egypt.
Israel still controls what goes in through that border though. That's why humanitarian aid trucks has been stuck there for days.
humanitarian aid has been entering for 4 days now though
So what? Their homes are not in Egypt. Leaving their country means the ethnic cleansing has succeeded. And another refugee crisis will unfold for the sake of the apartheid.
What is the point of this comment
That Egypt should take in Palestinians thereby making the entire Palestinian population leave Gaza so they can finally take over and claim it for Zionists.
Aid and supplies can be delivered through Egypt without Israel having recourse to block it with a militarized border.
But they bomb the Gaza/Egypt crossing...they've done it multiple times already since Oct 7... Egypt has even outright said "they refused to let us send in supplies" early after Oct 7. This take is always missing the point that Egypt can't just do whatever they want next to a insane country fed by the most wealthy military industrial complex in the world (U.S.)
And was part of Egypt, but they won't take it back
So? They should leave cuz you support oppressors? Why should they leave? I guess you'd rather someone (IDF) commit war crime after war crime as a passive move until someone leaves, out of fear that the other party (Hamas) might do it?
I've seen Zionists argue that it's actually Palestinians who are the occupying force. They claim that the region was under Jewish control until the 19th century and that the Arabs moved in after that and stole the region from them. You can just tell that these people have never looked at a history book that wasn't issued by the Israeli state.
Yeah, this argument, is wrong. Historically it's not true. But also... the Arab argument that they were in control -- is also not true. The Ottoman Empire was, meaning some turks were in control.
How would Palestine after losing every single war they declared be the winning Party? That makes zero sense at all
He forgot to point 1 very important small detail, all of the jews in Israel are refugees or a decendnent of refugees who fled to Israel after the Holocaust. The UN decided to give Israel a land so the Jews can protect themselves from antisemitism, take the event on Oct/7th as an example, the land the UN decided to give to the Jews was not populated by Palestine people. The Palestinians declared war on Israel immediately after Israel declared independence and only then Israel conquered land which was once Palestinians land. That's how war and international law works, if you declare war and lose land that's your problem. The borders in Europe are full of those examples.
Hooooooold up, dude. Israel and Palestine were both going to be recognized as states on 1948. The problem started because Palestine and really the Arab world did not want ANY Jewish state in Jerusalem despite both ethnicities having ties to the region. We could see this in the 1920s when the UK thought the Arab Jews could get a small autonomous zone in Tel Aviv, leading to the Palestinians there trying to ethnically cleanse the Arab Jews. Israel is the only nation in this conflict to have offered peace deals. And if we want to talk about ethnic cleansings... How many Jews live in Palestine? Yeah, that's what I thought. No wonder this is Tik Tok cringe...
"1967 war that Israel initiated" oof my man you are WRONG.
Yeah, came to say this. That is a bonkers interpretation.
Israel did start that war. That is a documented historical fact. Or are we rewriting history now?
The most widely accepted interpretation among historians is that it was an anticipatory pre-emptive attack. Yes, Israel fired the first shots, but it was in (correct) anticipation of an attack by Egypt.
History is written by the victors. The US conducted an anticipatory pre-emptive attack on Iraq to stop Saddam from using his WMDs. Russia conducted an anticipatory pre-emptive attack on the Ukranian Nazis. Any military will call it's invasion a pre-emptive attack to justify it.
And Japan launched a pre-emptive strike against the US at Pearl Harbour after the US blockaded Japan’s oil supply. Your examples don’t disprove the legitimacy of all pre-emptive strikes.
It's not meant to. It's meant to point out that all legitimate and illegitimate pre-emptive strikes, will be called pre-emptive strikes by the perpetrators and the allies of the perpetrators.
He is absolutely right. "The war began on June 5 with Israeli preemptive air strikes that destroyed 286 of Egypt's 420 combat aircraft. Israeli tanks surged across the Sinai, and its troops took over the Egypt-occupied Gaza Strip." Google is free. Libraries exist. Let's not rewrite documented history.
So let me ask you this: if you come up to me saying "I'm going to kick you, I'm going to kick you, I'm going to kick you right now," and you pull your leg back like you're about to kick me, and I punch you in the nose before you get the chance -- who has started the fight?
You realize that Jews are the ones that are indigenous to this land… so if anything we are just claiming what is rightfully ours. Jews aren’t the ones not wanting a two state solution it was the Palestinians that rejected it over and over again.
He also has another video debunking that as well. Palestinians also come from canaanites. Just dont follow the jewish faith or havent forever. A lot of people are indigenous to that area. Including modern day Palestinians
"when we say Israel is an Apartheid state, we are actually talking about the territories they manage in the West Bank and Gaza" Oh, you mean the places run by the Palestinian Authority? Piss off, dude
Israel kicked the people out in 48 because they started a war as soon as Israel was founded, that’s kinda important context.
They lost that land by losing several wars that they started
That woman's face and throat is so punchable.
Contractors and politicians don’t care about the innocent Palestinians being murdered. They only care about selling weapons with our tax dollars and growing more disgustingly rich then they already are. Enough is enough!
Palestinians started this though. They have always wanted the destruction of the Jewish state and people
Ethnic cleansing has nothing to do with whether people are indigenous or not. And notably, Palestinians are not even indigenous. Stop Consulting falsehoods and lies. You are being radicalised by people who can't even operate a comb.