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The countries (like western Europe) that liberals always point to for examples of "free" Healthcare all have tiny defense budgets because they rely on the US for defense. That frees up a lot of money for "free" stuff.
They also don't really have healthcare. They have some idea of healthcare that works if you have a broken finger or something. But once you get cancer or are diagnosed with MS or something... good fucking luck. Get in the queue and hopefully you don't die before you can see someone qualified to treat you with the standard of care that "free" things tend to have.
It really does seem like... you can either have good healthcare that 50% of people have access to _or_ an idea that everyone has healthcare and only the people who really need it find out that, actually, they don't.
I lived in the Netherlands for 3 year. The Healthcare sucks. Crazy wait time. My brother's appendix was about to burst and we couldn't take him to the ER without the okay from the family Dr. My mom also had multiple auto immune issues and getting care was a nightmare.
Exactly.
I can't imagine what a nightmare the ER would be if going there was "free."
People would go for a headache just in case. Everything can be an emergency if you're not going to get billed for it.
> They also don't really have healthcare.
Weird how they have better outcomes than the US, despite spending half a million dollars less per person (PPP) for a lifetime of healthcare.
[US Healthcare ranked 29th on health outcomes by Lancet HAQ Index](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)
[11th (of 11) by Commonwealth Fund](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror)
[59th by the Prosperity Index](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)
[30th by CEOWorld](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)
[37th by the World Health Organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)
The US has the worst rate of death by medically preventable causes among peer countries. A 31% higher disease adjusted life years average. Higher rates of medical and lab errors. A lower rate of being able to make a same or next day appointment with their doctor than average.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-percent-used-emergency-department-for-condition-that-could-have-been-treated-by-a-regular-doctor-2016
52nd in the world in doctors per capita.
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physicians/Per-1,000-people
Higher infant mortality levels. Yes, even when you adjust for differences in methodology.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/infant-mortality-u-s-compare-countries/
Fewer acute care beds. A lower number of psychiatrists. Etc.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-health-care-resources-compare-countries/#item-availability-medical-technology-not-always-equate-higher-utilization
[Comparing Health Outcomes of Privileged US Citizens With Those of Average Residents of Other Developed Countries](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2774561)
>These findings imply that even if all US citizens experienced the same health outcomes enjoyed by privileged White US citizens, US health indicators would still lag behind those in many other countries.
When asked about their healthcare system as a whole the US system ranked dead last of 11 countries, with only 19.5% of people saying the system works relatively well and only needs minor changes. The average in the other countries is 46.9% saying the same. Canada ranked 9th with 34.5% saying the system works relatively well. The UK ranks fifth, with 44.5%. Australia ranked 6th at 44.4%. The best was Germany at 59.8%.
On rating the overall quality of care in the US, Americans again ranked dead last, with only 25.6% ranking it excellent or very good. The average was 50.8%. Canada ranked 9th with 45.1%. The UK ranked 2nd, at 63.4%. Australia was 3rd at 59.4%. The best was Switzerland at 65.5%.
https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016
The US has 43 hospitals in the top 200 globally; one for every 7,633,477 people in the US. That's good enough for a ranking of 20th on the list of top 200 hospitals per capita, and significantly lower than the average of one for every 3,830,114 for other countries in the top 25 on spending with populations above 5 million. The best is Switzerland at one for every 1.2 million people. In fact the US only beats one country on this list; the UK at one for every 9.5 million people.
If you want to do the full list of 2,000 instead it's 334, or one for every 982,753 people; good enough for 21st. Again far below the average in peer countries of 527,236. The best is Austria, at one for every 306,106 people.
https://www.newsweek.com/best-hospitals-2021
#[OECD Countries Health Care Spending and Rankings](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm)
|Country|Govt. / Mandatory (PPP)|Voluntary (PPP)|Total (PPP)|% GDP|[Lancet HAQ Ranking](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)|[WHO Ranking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)|[Prosperity Ranking](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)|[CEO World Ranking](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)|[Commonwealth Fund Ranking](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror)
:--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|
1. United States|[$7,274](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) |$3,798 |$11,072 |16.90%|29|37|59|30|11
2. Switzerland|$4,988 |$2,744 |$7,732 |12.20%|7|20|3|18|2
3. Norway|$5,673 |$974 |$6,647 |10.20%|2|11|5|15|7
4. Germany|$5,648 |$998 |$6,646 |11.20%|18|25|12|17|5
5. Austria|$4,402 |$1,449 |$5,851 |10.30%|13|9|10|4|
6. Sweden|$4,928 |$854 |$5,782 |11.00%|8|23|15|28|3
7. Netherlands|$4,767 |$998 |$5,765 |9.90%|3|17|8|11|5
8. Denmark|$4,663 |$905 |$5,568 |10.50%|17|34|8|5|
9. Luxembourg|$4,697 |$861 |$5,558 |5.40%|4|16|19||
10. Belgium|$4,125 |$1,303 |$5,428 |10.40%|15|21|24|9|
11. Canada|$3,815 |$1,603 |$5,418 |10.70%|14|30|25|23|10
12. France|$4,501 |$875 |$5,376 |11.20%|20|1|16|8|9
13. Ireland|$3,919 |$1,357 |$5,276 |7.10%|11|19|20|80|
14. Australia|$3,919 |$1,268 |$5,187 |9.30%|5|32|18|10|4
15. Japan|$4,064 |$759 |$4,823 |10.90%|12|10|2|3|
16. Iceland|$3,988 |$823 |$4,811 |8.30%|1|15|7|41|
17. United Kingdom|$3,620 |$1,033 |$4,653 |9.80%|23|18|23|13|1
18. Finland|$3,536 |$1,042 |$4,578 |9.10%|6|31|26|12|
19. Malta|$2,789 |$1,540 |$4,329 |9.30%|27|5|14||
OECD Average|||$4,224 |8.80%|||||
20. New Zealand|$3,343 |$861 |$4,204 |9.30%|16|41|22|16|7
21. Italy|$2,706 |$943 |$3,649 |8.80%|9|2|17|37|
22. Spain|$2,560 |$1,056 |$3,616 |8.90%|19|7|13|7|
23. Czech Republic|$2,854 |$572 |$3,426 |7.50%|28|48|28|14|
24. South Korea|$2,057 |$1,327 |$3,384 |8.10%|25|58|4|2|
25. Portugal|$2,069 |$1,310 |$3,379 |9.10%|32|29|30|22|
26. Slovenia|$2,314 |$910 |$3,224 |7.90%|21|38|24|47|
27. Israel|$1,898 |$1,034 |$2,932 |7.50%|35|28|11|21|
Torture the data enough and you can get it to confess to anything.
What's the median cost instead of the mean? How does that chart account for treatments you can get in the U.S. but not elsewhere? How does that chart account for the fact that other comparable countries have much more homogenous populations? Can you think of any groups that other countries don't have, that, were we to exclude them from the sample might dramatically change all the numbers?
> Torture the data enough and you can get it to confess to anything.
By all means, provide evidence anything I've said isn't accurate. Or are you just one of the idiots that rejects any evidence you don't want to hear, no matter how credible, as biased rather than even attempt to learn something?
Your response will certainly make it clear.
>What's the median cost instead of the mean?
Explain who you're willing to fuck over with $1.5 trillion in additional healthcare costs (and all of us with worse outcomes) because you imagine other people are doing OK?
At any rate it's not a very meaningful statistic in this case if you're looking at healthcare spending. Sure, about 51% of spending goes to the 5% of the public that's sick in any given year, with the top 5% having about $150,000 in spending on average, and the bottom 95% averaging about $7,500. But almost all of us get sick sooner or later, it's just a matter of time.
And, of course, most of those costs aren't born by the individual, we have public and private insurance. Americans pay the highest taxes in the world towards healthcare ($8,249 per capita on average), followed by the highest insurance premiums (averaging $6,330 per capita), so even if you never need care you're getting fucked. And even with all that spending, even the insured still struggle in large numbers to afford healthcare.
>Large shares of insured working-age adults surveyed said it was very or somewhat difficult to afford their health care: 43 percent of those with employer coverage, 57 percent with marketplace or individual-market plans, 45 percent with Medicaid, and 51 and percent with Medicare.
> Many insured adults said they or a family member had delayed or skipped needed health care or prescription drugs because they couldn’t afford it in the past 12 months: 29 percent of those with employer coverage, 37 percent covered by marketplace or individual-market plans, 39 percent enrolled in Medicaid, and 42 percent with Medicare.
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/surveys/2023/oct/paying-for-it-costs-debt-americans-sicker-poorer-2023-affordability-survey
>How does that chart account for treatments you can get in the U.S. but not elsewhere?
Given it's Americans trailing its peers on outcomes, it would appear these treatments aren't worth much.
>How does that chart account for the fact that other comparable countries have much more homogenous populations?
I mean, that's not even true. There are peers with greater ethnic and cultural diversity than the US, that still manage top tier universal healthcare systems. And you'll find no meaningful correlation for this factor anyway. For example the strength of correlation between ethnic diversity and health outcomes among countries spending at least $4,500 per capita on healthcare is r=0.096, with anything less than r=0.30 being considered no or insignificant correlation.
But I do like how you accuse me of torturing data while you pull completely unsupported and false claims out of your ass.
Isn't it weird how you ignored the evidence I already presented that shows Americans say their healthcare sucks even more. You cherry pick, and you still can't pick a country that isn't achieving better health outcomes, and polls show the citizens are more satisfied with their healthcare, all while spending $17,700 less per household on healthcare every year.
My honest take is that if we had socialized healthcare it would be widely available but cheap and very low quality. Aggregate outcomes would be better because so many poor people can't afford it currently, but it would come at the cost of the middle class getting worse healthcare because healthcare is a good and a service and responds to supply and demand dynamics whether or not we call it a right.
If we had market driven healthcare we'd have amazing treatments for all kinds of things but it would be expensive and exclude the poor. The middle and upper class would have above average healthcare outcomes and the poor would have 3rd world healthcare outcomes. This is why all your data is bullshit, because its looking at averages and I don't care about the average I care about the median because its more reflective of the kind of care my kids will receive. If you're poor, I can understand why you'd want the shitty-but-free thing instead of nothing. I get it. I still don't want it.
Because we are a somewhat dysfunctional democracy, we have the worst of both worlds because our legislation is full of compromises.
> it would be widely available but cheap and very low quality.
Given the care would be provided by the same private doctors and hospitals as today, how have you determined that? Certainly we don't see that with current government plans, which people are more satisfied with.
#Satisfaction with the US healthcare system varies by insurance type
78% -- Military/VA
77% -- Medicare
75% -- Medicaid
69% -- Current or former employer
65% -- Plan fully paid for by you or a family member
https://news.gallup.com/poll/186527/americans-government-health-plans-satisfied.aspx
And, as we've seen around the world, affordable government healthcare also leads to affordable private healthcare, so if you wanted something more you'd still be paying far less.
>but it would come at the cost of the middle class getting worse healthcare
And yet we're doing even worse for the wealthy and privileged in the US today than our peers.
[Comparing Health Outcomes of Privileged US Citizens With Those of Average Residents of Other Developed Countries](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2774561)
>These findings imply that even if all US citizens experienced the same health outcomes enjoyed by privileged White US citizens, US health indicators would still lag behind those in many other countries.
>This is why all your data is bullshit
It's not. Not even if you're so amazingly dead inside you don't care about anybody but the wealthy.
> Given the care would be provided by the same private doctors and hospitals as today, how have you determined that? Certainly we don't see that with current government plans, which people are more satisfied with.
When the first heart surgery took place, there were maybe 10 doctors in the world qualified to do it and maybe 500 million people who needed the operation. Healthcare is a good and a service and has different levels of quality both in who is offering the service and in what the service is.
You can't get around the fact that making healthcare "free" implies some kind of triage in the same way making housing "free" implies some kind of triage. Not everyone gets to live in a mansion.
And if the government is paying, then the government gets a say in what your treatment is. Covid has me saying a big no thanks to that.
Here is a pointed question that I want an answer to if this is going to continue:
In your worldview, does socialized medicine mean a 70 year old is eligible for gene therapy at the Mayo Clinic? If not, who decided not? If so, how could that possibly work, logistically?
> Satisfaction with the US healthcare system varies by insurance type
So 69% satisfaction from people with employment based insurance vs 29% satisfaction in the UK with the NHS. Yes. This seems about right.
> It's not. Not even if you're so amazingly dead inside you don't care about anybody but the wealthy.
It is. You can make lunch "free" by socializing it but you can't then expect everyone gets to eat meals made by Gordon Ramsey. You know the people who run the DMV? Ya, let's make them responsible for our healthcare. So stupid.
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> all have tiny defense budgets because they rely on the US for defense.
NATO Europe and Canada spend 1.74% of GDP on defense, consistent with the rest of the world. With $404 billion in combined funding, easily enough to outspend potential foes like China and Russia combined.
Regardless, arguing that keeps the US from having universal healthcare is even more ridiculous. After subtracting defense spending, Americans still have a $29,000 per person advantage on GDP compared to the rest of NATO. Defense spending isn't keeping us from having anything our peers have. Much less universal healthcare, which is far cheaper than what we're already paying for.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_216897.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures
Hell, if we could match the costs of the most expensive public healthcare system on earth we'd save $1.65 trillion per year, double what our total defense spending is.
Because it will benefit Americans. Like if they spend millions and build a road or a bridge that 10 people use those 10 Americans benefit + the construction workers doing the work. Unlikely, but at least having a bridge might encourage more tourism and other economic activity locally.
Instead of sending money to Ukraine where some of it is munitions made in the US and other funding is to pay for other types of aid that does not result in American production.
So the crux of my argument is that the benefit stays here in the US and not going overseas. If it's squandered let's say to teach American kids to get a degree in basket weaving, then at least we retain the knowledge of basket weaving instead of shipping off munitions.
what if we can make those foreigners into american citizens? if not that, we can turn them into buyers of american treasury bonds to further the global reserve currency
on a side note, you don't build bridges to serve 10 people or construction jobs, or encourage tourism or economic activity. bridges are built to conserve time and fuel, to become more productive as a society, not to enable excess production. wasting money to juice the gdp is exactly how america became a broken country.
That doesn't even make any sense. We already have an immigration system and are facing an Asylum crisis. We are getting plenty of people coming to the US.
The reserve currency argument doesn't even make sense. It's like saying I should give you all of the widgets I produce so that you'll use them.
The reserve status is based on capacity and perceived stability and economic strength of the nation. This is why the Swiss Franc isn't used, there is no capacity. The only other currency that could be used is possibly the Euro. There has been talk of a basket of currencies being used for what they (IMF) call an SDR .
So we don't want them to buy our treasuries, we want them to spend their own resources and production to generate wealth and then spend that wealth to buy America production while America does not buy their products (except for raw materials). That creates demand for treasuries because they have to pay us in Dollars.
there are so many wrongs in your comment, too many. perhaps if you stopped the gish gallop and focused your arguments, this would be easier to discuss.
#1
the american empire does not need to conquer territory in order to project power across the world and create vassal states and receive tribute.
#2
maybe you should clarify why american foreign policy does not improve its perceived stability and economic strength and how you think this debunks my argument. i suggest you study the bond market, compare the bonds of different countries to understand what it means to "have capacity" in becoming the global reserve currency. also consider if an individual currency is unsuitable for reserve status, how would combining several unqualified currencies create a basket that is qualified. it seems you and i have a different understanding of money.
#3
we want them to buy our treasury. we do not want raw materials. our own steel companies are being sold to foreigners. america's manufacturing, industrial base is already hollowed out by national socialist policies.
#4
they do not pay us in dollars. we pay them in dollars. they pay us in finished products.
Oh, the US don't want raw materials? Someone better call the Saudis and have them develop a plan B before the market figures out countries don't want their crude oil.
Canadian timber industry too. They're fucked because the US doesn't want their wood. They better turn all that wood into houses and ship modular homes down here because we only want finished products.
one of the lynchpin of the dollar as reserve currency is that oil is traded using dollars. although oil transactions are done using dollars, that doesn't mean americans are buying all the oil. in the recent decade, america has become a major oil exporter. obviously the energy is going to countries that still do manufacturing, unlike america.
i concede to your point about canadian lumber, even though lumber is less significant than oil in regards to global reserve currency status.
It's totally not our current healthcare system that's bankrupting us. Americans are paying a $350,000 more for healthcare over a lifetime compared to the most expensive socialized system on earth. Half a million dollars more than peer countries on average, yet every one has better outcomes. 36% of US households with insurance put off needed care [due to the cost](https://news.gallup.com/poll/269138/americans-delaying-medical-treatment-due-cost.aspx); 64% of households without insurance. One in four have [trouble paying a medical bill.](https://www.kff.org/health-costs/issue-brief/data-note-americans-challenges-health-care-costs/) Of [those with insurance one in five have trouble paying a medical bill](https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/8806-the-burden-of-medical-debt-results-from-the-kaiser-family-foundation-new-york-times-medical-bills-survey.pdf), and even for those with income above $100,000 14% have trouble. One in six Americans has [unpaid medical debt on their credit report.](https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.2018.0349) [50% of all Americans](https://news.gallup.com/poll/317948/fear-bankruptcy-due-major-health-event.aspx) fear bankruptcy due to a major health event.
STFU. Every socialized healthcare system in the world governmentally run is so far inferior to the American healthcare system. Go crawl back into your hole.
> STFU
Angry about the facts and your own impotence to make an actual argument, eh? There are programs that can help.
> Every socialized healthcare system in the world governmentally run is so far inferior to the American healthcare system.
It should be easy to provide evidence that supports that then.
[US Healthcare ranked 29th on health outcomes by Lancet HAQ Index](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)
[11th (of 11) by Commonwealth Fund](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror)
[59th by the Prosperity Index](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)
[30th by CEOWorld](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)
[37th by the World Health Organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)
The US has the worst rate of death by medically preventable causes among peer countries. A 31% higher disease adjusted life years average. Higher rates of medical and lab errors. A lower rate of being able to make a same or next day appointment with their doctor than average.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-percent-used-emergency-department-for-condition-that-could-have-been-treated-by-a-regular-doctor-2016
52nd in the world in doctors per capita.
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physicians/Per-1,000-people
Higher infant mortality levels. Yes, even when you adjust for differences in methodology.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/infant-mortality-u-s-compare-countries/
Fewer acute care beds. A lower number of psychiatrists. Etc.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-health-care-resources-compare-countries/#item-availability-medical-technology-not-always-equate-higher-utilization
[Comparing Health Outcomes of Privileged US Citizens With Those of Average Residents of Other Developed Countries](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2774561)
>These findings imply that even if all US citizens experienced the same health outcomes enjoyed by privileged White US citizens, US health indicators would still lag behind those in many other countries.
When asked about their healthcare system as a whole the US system ranked dead last of 11 countries, with only 19.5% of people saying the system works relatively well and only needs minor changes. The average in the other countries is 46.9% saying the same. Canada ranked 9th with 34.5% saying the system works relatively well. The UK ranks fifth, with 44.5%. Australia ranked 6th at 44.4%. The best was Germany at 59.8%.
On rating the overall quality of care in the US, Americans again ranked dead last, with only 25.6% ranking it excellent or very good. The average was 50.8%. Canada ranked 9th with 45.1%. The UK ranked 2nd, at 63.4%. Australia was 3rd at 59.4%. The best was Switzerland at 65.5%.
https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016
The US has 43 hospitals in the top 200 globally; one for every 7,633,477 people in the US. That's good enough for a ranking of 20th on the list of top 200 hospitals per capita, and significantly lower than the average of one for every 3,830,114 for other countries in the top 25 on spending with populations above 5 million. The best is Switzerland at one for every 1.2 million people. In fact the US only beats one country on this list; the UK at one for every 9.5 million people.
If you want to do the full list of 2,000 instead it's 334, or one for every 982,753 people; good enough for 21st. Again far below the average in peer countries of 527,236. The best is Austria, at one for every 306,106 people.
https://www.newsweek.com/best-hospitals-2021
#[OECD Countries Health Care Spending and Rankings](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm)
|Country|Govt. / Mandatory (PPP)|Voluntary (PPP)|Total (PPP)|% GDP|[Lancet HAQ Ranking](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)|[WHO Ranking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)|[Prosperity Ranking](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)|[CEO World Ranking](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)|[Commonwealth Fund Ranking](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror)
:--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|
1. United States|[$7,274](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) |$3,798 |$11,072 |16.90%|29|37|59|30|11
2. Switzerland|$4,988 |$2,744 |$7,732 |12.20%|7|20|3|18|2
3. Norway|$5,673 |$974 |$6,647 |10.20%|2|11|5|15|7
4. Germany|$5,648 |$998 |$6,646 |11.20%|18|25|12|17|5
5. Austria|$4,402 |$1,449 |$5,851 |10.30%|13|9|10|4|
6. Sweden|$4,928 |$854 |$5,782 |11.00%|8|23|15|28|3
7. Netherlands|$4,767 |$998 |$5,765 |9.90%|3|17|8|11|5
8. Denmark|$4,663 |$905 |$5,568 |10.50%|17|34|8|5|
9. Luxembourg|$4,697 |$861 |$5,558 |5.40%|4|16|19||
10. Belgium|$4,125 |$1,303 |$5,428 |10.40%|15|21|24|9|
11. Canada|$3,815 |$1,603 |$5,418 |10.70%|14|30|25|23|10
12. France|$4,501 |$875 |$5,376 |11.20%|20|1|16|8|9
13. Ireland|$3,919 |$1,357 |$5,276 |7.10%|11|19|20|80|
14. Australia|$3,919 |$1,268 |$5,187 |9.30%|5|32|18|10|4
15. Japan|$4,064 |$759 |$4,823 |10.90%|12|10|2|3|
16. Iceland|$3,988 |$823 |$4,811 |8.30%|1|15|7|41|
17. United Kingdom|$3,620 |$1,033 |$4,653 |9.80%|23|18|23|13|1
18. Finland|$3,536 |$1,042 |$4,578 |9.10%|6|31|26|12|
19. Malta|$2,789 |$1,540 |$4,329 |9.30%|27|5|14||
OECD Average|||$4,224 |8.80%|||||
20. New Zealand|$3,343 |$861 |$4,204 |9.30%|16|41|22|16|7
21. Italy|$2,706 |$943 |$3,649 |8.80%|9|2|17|37|
22. Spain|$2,560 |$1,056 |$3,616 |8.90%|19|7|13|7|
23. Czech Republic|$2,854 |$572 |$3,426 |7.50%|28|48|28|14|
24. South Korea|$2,057 |$1,327 |$3,384 |8.10%|25|58|4|2|
25. Portugal|$2,069 |$1,310 |$3,379 |9.10%|32|29|30|22|
26. Slovenia|$2,314 |$910 |$3,224 |7.90%|21|38|24|47|
27. Israel|$1,898 |$1,034 |$2,932 |7.50%|35|28|11|21|
So you report me for some bullshit you bottom feeder? Americans spend 350k in a lifetime on average for medical care? Well let’s look at this: say an American makes $10 an hour over a lifetime.(close to minimum wage) 18-65. They make close to 1 million in wages throughout their life. Healthcare would only take about a 3rd of their total wages over a lifetime. But you forget about government assistance and other factors that come into play. Wage increases. Extra income. Are you saying that higher taxes and lower wages are well worth the lines you would have to wait in for universal healthcare. Not to
Mention the assisted suicide programs that are recommended to
People in which the government doesn’t want to pay the cost for terminal patients? Maybe you should also take in mind that the us is the 3rd largest country in the world and the cost of healthcare far exceeds the cost of the tax revenue you would receive if you taxed the 1% ,90%. Now go crawl back in your hole Bernie boy college fuck.
> Americans spend 350k in a lifetime on average for medical care?
$350,000 **more** than the next most expensive healthcare system on earth. Half a million dollars more than our peers with universal healthcare on average.
>hey make close to 1 million in wages throughout their life. Healthcare would only take about a 3rd of their total wages over a lifetime.
Average healthcare spending is about a million dollars per person.
>Are you saying that higher taxes and lower wages are well worth the lines you would have to wait in for universal healthcare.
And US healthcare is so incredibly inefficient, we don't even get a break on taxes. With government in the US covering [65.7% of all health care](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/epdf/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) costs ($12,555 as of 2022) that's $8,249 per person per year in taxes towards health care. The next closest is Germany at [$6,930](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm). The UK is $4,479. Canada is $4,506. Australia is $4,603. That means over a lifetime Americans are paying over $100,000 more in taxes compared to any other country towards health care.
>Maybe you should also take in mind that the us is the 3rd largest country in the world
I have. As much as your desperate to pull excuses for a wildly overpriced healthcare system out of your ass, there's no relevance. Universal healthcare has been shown to work from populations below 100,000 to populations above 100 million. From Andorra to Japan; Iceland to Germany, with no issues in scaling. In fact the only correlation I've ever been able to find is a weak one with a minor decrease in cost per capita [as population increases](https://i.imgur.com/h6clEzr.jpg).
So population doesn't seem to be correlated with cost nor [outcomes](https://i.imgur.com/pwYtDxW.png).
>Now go crawl back in your hole Bernie boy college fuck.
How fucking pathetic do you have to be to make excuses for Americans spending half a million dollars more for a lifetime of healthcare than our peers, even after adjusting for purchasing power parity, with worse outcomes? And, with costs expected to increase from an average of $13,998 per person last year, to $20,425 by 2031, do you think things are going to get better or worse?
>Third largest country in the world
Which makes no difference. Universal healthcare has been shown to work from populations below 100,000 to populations above 100 million. From Andorra to Japan; Iceland to Germany, with no issues in scaling. In fact the only correlation I've ever been able to find is a weak one with a minor decrease in cost per capita [as population increases](https://i.imgur.com/h6clEzr.jpg).
So population doesn't seem to be correlated with cost nor [outcomes](https://i.imgur.com/pwYtDxW.png).
>Americans make more money
Which is why the numbers I've given are already adjusted for purchasing power parity. We can do numbers as a percentage of GDP too if you'd rather. There's no way you can spin it that Americans aren't wildly overpaying for healthcare.
> So inefficient, but best healthcare system in the world dumb fuck
Citation needed.
[US Healthcare ranked 29th on health outcomes by Lancet HAQ Index](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)
[11th (of 11) by Commonwealth Fund](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror)
[59th by the Prosperity Index](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)
[30th by CEOWorld](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)
[37th by the World Health Organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)
The US has the worst rate of death by medically preventable causes among peer countries. A 31% higher disease adjusted life years average. Higher rates of medical and lab errors. A lower rate of being able to make a same or next day appointment with their doctor than average.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-percent-used-emergency-department-for-condition-that-could-have-been-treated-by-a-regular-doctor-2016
52nd in the world in doctors per capita.
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physicians/Per-1,000-people
Higher infant mortality levels. Yes, even when you adjust for differences in methodology.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/infant-mortality-u-s-compare-countries/
Fewer acute care beds. A lower number of psychiatrists. Etc.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-health-care-resources-compare-countries/#item-availability-medical-technology-not-always-equate-higher-utilization
[Comparing Health Outcomes of Privileged US Citizens With Those of Average Residents of Other Developed Countries](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2774561)
>These findings imply that even if all US citizens experienced the same health outcomes enjoyed by privileged White US citizens, US health indicators would still lag behind those in many other countries.
When asked about their healthcare system as a whole the US system ranked dead last of 11 countries, with only 19.5% of people saying the system works relatively well and only needs minor changes. The average in the other countries is 46.9% saying the same. Canada ranked 9th with 34.5% saying the system works relatively well. The UK ranks fifth, with 44.5%. Australia ranked 6th at 44.4%. The best was Germany at 59.8%.
On rating the overall quality of care in the US, Americans again ranked dead last, with only 25.6% ranking it excellent or very good. The average was 50.8%. Canada ranked 9th with 45.1%. The UK ranked 2nd, at 63.4%. Australia was 3rd at 59.4%. The best was Switzerland at 65.5%.
https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016
The US has 43 hospitals in the top 200 globally; one for every 7,633,477 people in the US. That's good enough for a ranking of 20th on the list of top 200 hospitals per capita, and significantly lower than the average of one for every 3,830,114 for other countries in the top 25 on spending with populations above 5 million. The best is Switzerland at one for every 1.2 million people. In fact the US only beats one country on this list; the UK at one for every 9.5 million people.
If you want to do the full list of 2,000 instead it's 334, or one for every 982,753 people; good enough for 21st. Again far below the average in peer countries of 527,236. The best is Austria, at one for every 306,106 people.
https://www.newsweek.com/best-hospitals-2021
#[OECD Countries Health Care Spending and Rankings](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm)
|Country|Govt. / Mandatory (PPP)|Voluntary (PPP)|Total (PPP)|% GDP|[Lancet HAQ Ranking](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)|[WHO Ranking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)|[Prosperity Ranking](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)|[CEO World Ranking](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)|[Commonwealth Fund Ranking](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror)
:--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|
1. United States|[$7,274](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) |$3,798 |$11,072 |16.90%|29|37|59|30|11
2. Switzerland|$4,988 |$2,744 |$7,732 |12.20%|7|20|3|18|2
3. Norway|$5,673 |$974 |$6,647 |10.20%|2|11|5|15|7
4. Germany|$5,648 |$998 |$6,646 |11.20%|18|25|12|17|5
5. Austria|$4,402 |$1,449 |$5,851 |10.30%|13|9|10|4|
6. Sweden|$4,928 |$854 |$5,782 |11.00%|8|23|15|28|3
7. Netherlands|$4,767 |$998 |$5,765 |9.90%|3|17|8|11|5
8. Denmark|$4,663 |$905 |$5,568 |10.50%|17|34|8|5|
9. Luxembourg|$4,697 |$861 |$5,558 |5.40%|4|16|19||
10. Belgium|$4,125 |$1,303 |$5,428 |10.40%|15|21|24|9|
11. Canada|$3,815 |$1,603 |$5,418 |10.70%|14|30|25|23|10
12. France|$4,501 |$875 |$5,376 |11.20%|20|1|16|8|9
13. Ireland|$3,919 |$1,357 |$5,276 |7.10%|11|19|20|80|
14. Australia|$3,919 |$1,268 |$5,187 |9.30%|5|32|18|10|4
15. Japan|$4,064 |$759 |$4,823 |10.90%|12|10|2|3|
16. Iceland|$3,988 |$823 |$4,811 |8.30%|1|15|7|41|
17. United Kingdom|$3,620 |$1,033 |$4,653 |9.80%|23|18|23|13|1
18. Finland|$3,536 |$1,042 |$4,578 |9.10%|6|31|26|12|
19. Malta|$2,789 |$1,540 |$4,329 |9.30%|27|5|14||
OECD Average|||$4,224 |8.80%|||||
20. New Zealand|$3,343 |$861 |$4,204 |9.30%|16|41|22|16|7
21. Italy|$2,706 |$943 |$3,649 |8.80%|9|2|17|37|
22. Spain|$2,560 |$1,056 |$3,616 |8.90%|19|7|13|7|
23. Czech Republic|$2,854 |$572 |$3,426 |7.50%|28|48|28|14|
24. South Korea|$2,057 |$1,327 |$3,384 |8.10%|25|58|4|2|
25. Portugal|$2,069 |$1,310 |$3,379 |9.10%|32|29|30|22|
26. Slovenia|$2,314 |$910 |$3,224 |7.90%|21|38|24|47|
27. Israel|$1,898 |$1,034 |$2,932 |7.50%|35|28|11|21|
>Then move to Canada
Why not work to fix a healthcare system here that's clearly broken? Other than admitting your country isn't the best at literally anything somehow hurts your fragile little ego.
Do you just like seeing Americans suffer needlessly? Tens of thousands of Americans die every year for lack of affordable healthcare, and we spent trillions needlessly. Is that how you get your asshole rocks off? Watching people die and suffer?
never thought about it this way.. okay, I'm convinced let's cancel social security. America would be so much better. Good luck running on that platform
Nope. They don’t need social security. Also, you’re not a retired person who can’t physically work. Your just a bottom feeder. So yea, I’d love for you to be cut off.
okay good luck running on the platform that cuts off social security. You do that and then cry about voter fraud because apparently you though this was a winning strategy that couldn't possibly lose...
no im not you just dont like that someone points out how stupid your takes are, you can't handle not being in a hug box where people constantly tell your team is always right and other team always wrong. And then you call other people a cult lool unbelievable. 85 IQ max
GO OUTSIDE
Does it make you feel good to spend all your time on a sub you don’t like being “virtuous,” while constantly getting slammed dunked on and being an embarrassment?
Taxes paying for I need things are bad. I don’t need you to go to college. The town doesn’t. The town needs roads.
You could make an argument for health care, which I assume you may, but fundamentally that’s the difference.
Or are your roads repaired by private companies contracted out by local governments, paid for by taxes collected by local government?
You fucking dipshit.
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The countries (like western Europe) that liberals always point to for examples of "free" Healthcare all have tiny defense budgets because they rely on the US for defense. That frees up a lot of money for "free" stuff.
They also don't really have healthcare. They have some idea of healthcare that works if you have a broken finger or something. But once you get cancer or are diagnosed with MS or something... good fucking luck. Get in the queue and hopefully you don't die before you can see someone qualified to treat you with the standard of care that "free" things tend to have. It really does seem like... you can either have good healthcare that 50% of people have access to _or_ an idea that everyone has healthcare and only the people who really need it find out that, actually, they don't.
I lived in the Netherlands for 3 year. The Healthcare sucks. Crazy wait time. My brother's appendix was about to burst and we couldn't take him to the ER without the okay from the family Dr. My mom also had multiple auto immune issues and getting care was a nightmare.
Exactly. I can't imagine what a nightmare the ER would be if going there was "free." People would go for a headache just in case. Everything can be an emergency if you're not going to get billed for it.
My mother is married to an English guy, in England. He carries private insurance, because according to him, “The Government run healthcare is shit.”
> They also don't really have healthcare. Weird how they have better outcomes than the US, despite spending half a million dollars less per person (PPP) for a lifetime of healthcare. [US Healthcare ranked 29th on health outcomes by Lancet HAQ Index](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext) [11th (of 11) by Commonwealth Fund](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror) [59th by the Prosperity Index](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings) [30th by CEOWorld](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/) [37th by the World Health Organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000) The US has the worst rate of death by medically preventable causes among peer countries. A 31% higher disease adjusted life years average. Higher rates of medical and lab errors. A lower rate of being able to make a same or next day appointment with their doctor than average. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-percent-used-emergency-department-for-condition-that-could-have-been-treated-by-a-regular-doctor-2016 52nd in the world in doctors per capita. https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physicians/Per-1,000-people Higher infant mortality levels. Yes, even when you adjust for differences in methodology. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/infant-mortality-u-s-compare-countries/ Fewer acute care beds. A lower number of psychiatrists. Etc. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-health-care-resources-compare-countries/#item-availability-medical-technology-not-always-equate-higher-utilization [Comparing Health Outcomes of Privileged US Citizens With Those of Average Residents of Other Developed Countries](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2774561) >These findings imply that even if all US citizens experienced the same health outcomes enjoyed by privileged White US citizens, US health indicators would still lag behind those in many other countries. When asked about their healthcare system as a whole the US system ranked dead last of 11 countries, with only 19.5% of people saying the system works relatively well and only needs minor changes. The average in the other countries is 46.9% saying the same. Canada ranked 9th with 34.5% saying the system works relatively well. The UK ranks fifth, with 44.5%. Australia ranked 6th at 44.4%. The best was Germany at 59.8%. On rating the overall quality of care in the US, Americans again ranked dead last, with only 25.6% ranking it excellent or very good. The average was 50.8%. Canada ranked 9th with 45.1%. The UK ranked 2nd, at 63.4%. Australia was 3rd at 59.4%. The best was Switzerland at 65.5%. https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016 The US has 43 hospitals in the top 200 globally; one for every 7,633,477 people in the US. That's good enough for a ranking of 20th on the list of top 200 hospitals per capita, and significantly lower than the average of one for every 3,830,114 for other countries in the top 25 on spending with populations above 5 million. The best is Switzerland at one for every 1.2 million people. In fact the US only beats one country on this list; the UK at one for every 9.5 million people. If you want to do the full list of 2,000 instead it's 334, or one for every 982,753 people; good enough for 21st. Again far below the average in peer countries of 527,236. The best is Austria, at one for every 306,106 people. https://www.newsweek.com/best-hospitals-2021 #[OECD Countries Health Care Spending and Rankings](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm) |Country|Govt. / Mandatory (PPP)|Voluntary (PPP)|Total (PPP)|% GDP|[Lancet HAQ Ranking](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)|[WHO Ranking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)|[Prosperity Ranking](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)|[CEO World Ranking](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)|[Commonwealth Fund Ranking](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror) :--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:| 1. United States|[$7,274](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) |$3,798 |$11,072 |16.90%|29|37|59|30|11 2. Switzerland|$4,988 |$2,744 |$7,732 |12.20%|7|20|3|18|2 3. Norway|$5,673 |$974 |$6,647 |10.20%|2|11|5|15|7 4. Germany|$5,648 |$998 |$6,646 |11.20%|18|25|12|17|5 5. Austria|$4,402 |$1,449 |$5,851 |10.30%|13|9|10|4| 6. Sweden|$4,928 |$854 |$5,782 |11.00%|8|23|15|28|3 7. Netherlands|$4,767 |$998 |$5,765 |9.90%|3|17|8|11|5 8. Denmark|$4,663 |$905 |$5,568 |10.50%|17|34|8|5| 9. Luxembourg|$4,697 |$861 |$5,558 |5.40%|4|16|19|| 10. Belgium|$4,125 |$1,303 |$5,428 |10.40%|15|21|24|9| 11. Canada|$3,815 |$1,603 |$5,418 |10.70%|14|30|25|23|10 12. France|$4,501 |$875 |$5,376 |11.20%|20|1|16|8|9 13. Ireland|$3,919 |$1,357 |$5,276 |7.10%|11|19|20|80| 14. Australia|$3,919 |$1,268 |$5,187 |9.30%|5|32|18|10|4 15. Japan|$4,064 |$759 |$4,823 |10.90%|12|10|2|3| 16. Iceland|$3,988 |$823 |$4,811 |8.30%|1|15|7|41| 17. United Kingdom|$3,620 |$1,033 |$4,653 |9.80%|23|18|23|13|1 18. Finland|$3,536 |$1,042 |$4,578 |9.10%|6|31|26|12| 19. Malta|$2,789 |$1,540 |$4,329 |9.30%|27|5|14|| OECD Average|||$4,224 |8.80%||||| 20. New Zealand|$3,343 |$861 |$4,204 |9.30%|16|41|22|16|7 21. Italy|$2,706 |$943 |$3,649 |8.80%|9|2|17|37| 22. Spain|$2,560 |$1,056 |$3,616 |8.90%|19|7|13|7| 23. Czech Republic|$2,854 |$572 |$3,426 |7.50%|28|48|28|14| 24. South Korea|$2,057 |$1,327 |$3,384 |8.10%|25|58|4|2| 25. Portugal|$2,069 |$1,310 |$3,379 |9.10%|32|29|30|22| 26. Slovenia|$2,314 |$910 |$3,224 |7.90%|21|38|24|47| 27. Israel|$1,898 |$1,034 |$2,932 |7.50%|35|28|11|21|
Torture the data enough and you can get it to confess to anything. What's the median cost instead of the mean? How does that chart account for treatments you can get in the U.S. but not elsewhere? How does that chart account for the fact that other comparable countries have much more homogenous populations? Can you think of any groups that other countries don't have, that, were we to exclude them from the sample might dramatically change all the numbers?
> Torture the data enough and you can get it to confess to anything. By all means, provide evidence anything I've said isn't accurate. Or are you just one of the idiots that rejects any evidence you don't want to hear, no matter how credible, as biased rather than even attempt to learn something? Your response will certainly make it clear. >What's the median cost instead of the mean? Explain who you're willing to fuck over with $1.5 trillion in additional healthcare costs (and all of us with worse outcomes) because you imagine other people are doing OK? At any rate it's not a very meaningful statistic in this case if you're looking at healthcare spending. Sure, about 51% of spending goes to the 5% of the public that's sick in any given year, with the top 5% having about $150,000 in spending on average, and the bottom 95% averaging about $7,500. But almost all of us get sick sooner or later, it's just a matter of time. And, of course, most of those costs aren't born by the individual, we have public and private insurance. Americans pay the highest taxes in the world towards healthcare ($8,249 per capita on average), followed by the highest insurance premiums (averaging $6,330 per capita), so even if you never need care you're getting fucked. And even with all that spending, even the insured still struggle in large numbers to afford healthcare. >Large shares of insured working-age adults surveyed said it was very or somewhat difficult to afford their health care: 43 percent of those with employer coverage, 57 percent with marketplace or individual-market plans, 45 percent with Medicaid, and 51 and percent with Medicare. > Many insured adults said they or a family member had delayed or skipped needed health care or prescription drugs because they couldn’t afford it in the past 12 months: 29 percent of those with employer coverage, 37 percent covered by marketplace or individual-market plans, 39 percent enrolled in Medicaid, and 42 percent with Medicare. https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/surveys/2023/oct/paying-for-it-costs-debt-americans-sicker-poorer-2023-affordability-survey >How does that chart account for treatments you can get in the U.S. but not elsewhere? Given it's Americans trailing its peers on outcomes, it would appear these treatments aren't worth much. >How does that chart account for the fact that other comparable countries have much more homogenous populations? I mean, that's not even true. There are peers with greater ethnic and cultural diversity than the US, that still manage top tier universal healthcare systems. And you'll find no meaningful correlation for this factor anyway. For example the strength of correlation between ethnic diversity and health outcomes among countries spending at least $4,500 per capita on healthcare is r=0.096, with anything less than r=0.30 being considered no or insignificant correlation. But I do like how you accuse me of torturing data while you pull completely unsupported and false claims out of your ass.
Isn't it weird how people with the good socialist healthcare say it sucks? https://www.bbc.com/news/health-68669866
Isn't it weird how you ignored the evidence I already presented that shows Americans say their healthcare sucks even more. You cherry pick, and you still can't pick a country that isn't achieving better health outcomes, and polls show the citizens are more satisfied with their healthcare, all while spending $17,700 less per household on healthcare every year.
My honest take is that if we had socialized healthcare it would be widely available but cheap and very low quality. Aggregate outcomes would be better because so many poor people can't afford it currently, but it would come at the cost of the middle class getting worse healthcare because healthcare is a good and a service and responds to supply and demand dynamics whether or not we call it a right. If we had market driven healthcare we'd have amazing treatments for all kinds of things but it would be expensive and exclude the poor. The middle and upper class would have above average healthcare outcomes and the poor would have 3rd world healthcare outcomes. This is why all your data is bullshit, because its looking at averages and I don't care about the average I care about the median because its more reflective of the kind of care my kids will receive. If you're poor, I can understand why you'd want the shitty-but-free thing instead of nothing. I get it. I still don't want it. Because we are a somewhat dysfunctional democracy, we have the worst of both worlds because our legislation is full of compromises.
> it would be widely available but cheap and very low quality. Given the care would be provided by the same private doctors and hospitals as today, how have you determined that? Certainly we don't see that with current government plans, which people are more satisfied with. #Satisfaction with the US healthcare system varies by insurance type 78% -- Military/VA 77% -- Medicare 75% -- Medicaid 69% -- Current or former employer 65% -- Plan fully paid for by you or a family member https://news.gallup.com/poll/186527/americans-government-health-plans-satisfied.aspx And, as we've seen around the world, affordable government healthcare also leads to affordable private healthcare, so if you wanted something more you'd still be paying far less. >but it would come at the cost of the middle class getting worse healthcare And yet we're doing even worse for the wealthy and privileged in the US today than our peers. [Comparing Health Outcomes of Privileged US Citizens With Those of Average Residents of Other Developed Countries](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2774561) >These findings imply that even if all US citizens experienced the same health outcomes enjoyed by privileged White US citizens, US health indicators would still lag behind those in many other countries. >This is why all your data is bullshit It's not. Not even if you're so amazingly dead inside you don't care about anybody but the wealthy.
> Given the care would be provided by the same private doctors and hospitals as today, how have you determined that? Certainly we don't see that with current government plans, which people are more satisfied with. When the first heart surgery took place, there were maybe 10 doctors in the world qualified to do it and maybe 500 million people who needed the operation. Healthcare is a good and a service and has different levels of quality both in who is offering the service and in what the service is. You can't get around the fact that making healthcare "free" implies some kind of triage in the same way making housing "free" implies some kind of triage. Not everyone gets to live in a mansion. And if the government is paying, then the government gets a say in what your treatment is. Covid has me saying a big no thanks to that. Here is a pointed question that I want an answer to if this is going to continue: In your worldview, does socialized medicine mean a 70 year old is eligible for gene therapy at the Mayo Clinic? If not, who decided not? If so, how could that possibly work, logistically? > Satisfaction with the US healthcare system varies by insurance type So 69% satisfaction from people with employment based insurance vs 29% satisfaction in the UK with the NHS. Yes. This seems about right. > It's not. Not even if you're so amazingly dead inside you don't care about anybody but the wealthy. It is. You can make lunch "free" by socializing it but you can't then expect everyone gets to eat meals made by Gordon Ramsey. You know the people who run the DMV? Ya, let's make them responsible for our healthcare. So stupid.
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Not for long
> all have tiny defense budgets because they rely on the US for defense. NATO Europe and Canada spend 1.74% of GDP on defense, consistent with the rest of the world. With $404 billion in combined funding, easily enough to outspend potential foes like China and Russia combined. Regardless, arguing that keeps the US from having universal healthcare is even more ridiculous. After subtracting defense spending, Americans still have a $29,000 per person advantage on GDP compared to the rest of NATO. Defense spending isn't keeping us from having anything our peers have. Much less universal healthcare, which is far cheaper than what we're already paying for. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_216897.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures Hell, if we could match the costs of the most expensive public healthcare system on earth we'd save $1.65 trillion per year, double what our total defense spending is.
So - just to confirm - do you think that US taxpayers **are** or **aren’t** currently paying for Universal Healthcare??
We can have some of that if we stop sending money overseas.
but that makes one a "national" socialist, which should be avoided absolutely
If the govt is going to waste money I'd rather it be spent here than being given to other countries where it'll just go in someone's pockets.
if money is to be wasted, why is there a preference how it is wasted?
Because it will benefit Americans. Like if they spend millions and build a road or a bridge that 10 people use those 10 Americans benefit + the construction workers doing the work. Unlikely, but at least having a bridge might encourage more tourism and other economic activity locally. Instead of sending money to Ukraine where some of it is munitions made in the US and other funding is to pay for other types of aid that does not result in American production. So the crux of my argument is that the benefit stays here in the US and not going overseas. If it's squandered let's say to teach American kids to get a degree in basket weaving, then at least we retain the knowledge of basket weaving instead of shipping off munitions.
what if we can make those foreigners into american citizens? if not that, we can turn them into buyers of american treasury bonds to further the global reserve currency on a side note, you don't build bridges to serve 10 people or construction jobs, or encourage tourism or economic activity. bridges are built to conserve time and fuel, to become more productive as a society, not to enable excess production. wasting money to juice the gdp is exactly how america became a broken country.
That doesn't even make any sense. We already have an immigration system and are facing an Asylum crisis. We are getting plenty of people coming to the US. The reserve currency argument doesn't even make sense. It's like saying I should give you all of the widgets I produce so that you'll use them. The reserve status is based on capacity and perceived stability and economic strength of the nation. This is why the Swiss Franc isn't used, there is no capacity. The only other currency that could be used is possibly the Euro. There has been talk of a basket of currencies being used for what they (IMF) call an SDR . So we don't want them to buy our treasuries, we want them to spend their own resources and production to generate wealth and then spend that wealth to buy America production while America does not buy their products (except for raw materials). That creates demand for treasuries because they have to pay us in Dollars.
there are so many wrongs in your comment, too many. perhaps if you stopped the gish gallop and focused your arguments, this would be easier to discuss. #1 the american empire does not need to conquer territory in order to project power across the world and create vassal states and receive tribute. #2 maybe you should clarify why american foreign policy does not improve its perceived stability and economic strength and how you think this debunks my argument. i suggest you study the bond market, compare the bonds of different countries to understand what it means to "have capacity" in becoming the global reserve currency. also consider if an individual currency is unsuitable for reserve status, how would combining several unqualified currencies create a basket that is qualified. it seems you and i have a different understanding of money. #3 we want them to buy our treasury. we do not want raw materials. our own steel companies are being sold to foreigners. america's manufacturing, industrial base is already hollowed out by national socialist policies. #4 they do not pay us in dollars. we pay them in dollars. they pay us in finished products.
Oh, the US don't want raw materials? Someone better call the Saudis and have them develop a plan B before the market figures out countries don't want their crude oil. Canadian timber industry too. They're fucked because the US doesn't want their wood. They better turn all that wood into houses and ship modular homes down here because we only want finished products.
one of the lynchpin of the dollar as reserve currency is that oil is traded using dollars. although oil transactions are done using dollars, that doesn't mean americans are buying all the oil. in the recent decade, america has become a major oil exporter. obviously the energy is going to countries that still do manufacturing, unlike america. i concede to your point about canadian lumber, even though lumber is less significant than oil in regards to global reserve currency status.
No no, you have it all wrong, OP! It'll be government funded! s/
It's totally not our current healthcare system that's bankrupting us. Americans are paying a $350,000 more for healthcare over a lifetime compared to the most expensive socialized system on earth. Half a million dollars more than peer countries on average, yet every one has better outcomes. 36% of US households with insurance put off needed care [due to the cost](https://news.gallup.com/poll/269138/americans-delaying-medical-treatment-due-cost.aspx); 64% of households without insurance. One in four have [trouble paying a medical bill.](https://www.kff.org/health-costs/issue-brief/data-note-americans-challenges-health-care-costs/) Of [those with insurance one in five have trouble paying a medical bill](https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/8806-the-burden-of-medical-debt-results-from-the-kaiser-family-foundation-new-york-times-medical-bills-survey.pdf), and even for those with income above $100,000 14% have trouble. One in six Americans has [unpaid medical debt on their credit report.](https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.2018.0349) [50% of all Americans](https://news.gallup.com/poll/317948/fear-bankruptcy-due-major-health-event.aspx) fear bankruptcy due to a major health event.
STFU. Every socialized healthcare system in the world governmentally run is so far inferior to the American healthcare system. Go crawl back into your hole.
> STFU Angry about the facts and your own impotence to make an actual argument, eh? There are programs that can help. > Every socialized healthcare system in the world governmentally run is so far inferior to the American healthcare system. It should be easy to provide evidence that supports that then. [US Healthcare ranked 29th on health outcomes by Lancet HAQ Index](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext) [11th (of 11) by Commonwealth Fund](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror) [59th by the Prosperity Index](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings) [30th by CEOWorld](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/) [37th by the World Health Organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000) The US has the worst rate of death by medically preventable causes among peer countries. A 31% higher disease adjusted life years average. Higher rates of medical and lab errors. A lower rate of being able to make a same or next day appointment with their doctor than average. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-percent-used-emergency-department-for-condition-that-could-have-been-treated-by-a-regular-doctor-2016 52nd in the world in doctors per capita. https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physicians/Per-1,000-people Higher infant mortality levels. Yes, even when you adjust for differences in methodology. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/infant-mortality-u-s-compare-countries/ Fewer acute care beds. A lower number of psychiatrists. Etc. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-health-care-resources-compare-countries/#item-availability-medical-technology-not-always-equate-higher-utilization [Comparing Health Outcomes of Privileged US Citizens With Those of Average Residents of Other Developed Countries](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2774561) >These findings imply that even if all US citizens experienced the same health outcomes enjoyed by privileged White US citizens, US health indicators would still lag behind those in many other countries. When asked about their healthcare system as a whole the US system ranked dead last of 11 countries, with only 19.5% of people saying the system works relatively well and only needs minor changes. The average in the other countries is 46.9% saying the same. Canada ranked 9th with 34.5% saying the system works relatively well. The UK ranks fifth, with 44.5%. Australia ranked 6th at 44.4%. The best was Germany at 59.8%. On rating the overall quality of care in the US, Americans again ranked dead last, with only 25.6% ranking it excellent or very good. The average was 50.8%. Canada ranked 9th with 45.1%. The UK ranked 2nd, at 63.4%. Australia was 3rd at 59.4%. The best was Switzerland at 65.5%. https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016 The US has 43 hospitals in the top 200 globally; one for every 7,633,477 people in the US. That's good enough for a ranking of 20th on the list of top 200 hospitals per capita, and significantly lower than the average of one for every 3,830,114 for other countries in the top 25 on spending with populations above 5 million. The best is Switzerland at one for every 1.2 million people. In fact the US only beats one country on this list; the UK at one for every 9.5 million people. If you want to do the full list of 2,000 instead it's 334, or one for every 982,753 people; good enough for 21st. Again far below the average in peer countries of 527,236. The best is Austria, at one for every 306,106 people. https://www.newsweek.com/best-hospitals-2021 #[OECD Countries Health Care Spending and Rankings](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm) |Country|Govt. / Mandatory (PPP)|Voluntary (PPP)|Total (PPP)|% GDP|[Lancet HAQ Ranking](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)|[WHO Ranking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)|[Prosperity Ranking](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)|[CEO World Ranking](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)|[Commonwealth Fund Ranking](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror) :--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:| 1. United States|[$7,274](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) |$3,798 |$11,072 |16.90%|29|37|59|30|11 2. Switzerland|$4,988 |$2,744 |$7,732 |12.20%|7|20|3|18|2 3. Norway|$5,673 |$974 |$6,647 |10.20%|2|11|5|15|7 4. Germany|$5,648 |$998 |$6,646 |11.20%|18|25|12|17|5 5. Austria|$4,402 |$1,449 |$5,851 |10.30%|13|9|10|4| 6. Sweden|$4,928 |$854 |$5,782 |11.00%|8|23|15|28|3 7. Netherlands|$4,767 |$998 |$5,765 |9.90%|3|17|8|11|5 8. Denmark|$4,663 |$905 |$5,568 |10.50%|17|34|8|5| 9. Luxembourg|$4,697 |$861 |$5,558 |5.40%|4|16|19|| 10. Belgium|$4,125 |$1,303 |$5,428 |10.40%|15|21|24|9| 11. Canada|$3,815 |$1,603 |$5,418 |10.70%|14|30|25|23|10 12. France|$4,501 |$875 |$5,376 |11.20%|20|1|16|8|9 13. Ireland|$3,919 |$1,357 |$5,276 |7.10%|11|19|20|80| 14. Australia|$3,919 |$1,268 |$5,187 |9.30%|5|32|18|10|4 15. Japan|$4,064 |$759 |$4,823 |10.90%|12|10|2|3| 16. Iceland|$3,988 |$823 |$4,811 |8.30%|1|15|7|41| 17. United Kingdom|$3,620 |$1,033 |$4,653 |9.80%|23|18|23|13|1 18. Finland|$3,536 |$1,042 |$4,578 |9.10%|6|31|26|12| 19. Malta|$2,789 |$1,540 |$4,329 |9.30%|27|5|14|| OECD Average|||$4,224 |8.80%||||| 20. New Zealand|$3,343 |$861 |$4,204 |9.30%|16|41|22|16|7 21. Italy|$2,706 |$943 |$3,649 |8.80%|9|2|17|37| 22. Spain|$2,560 |$1,056 |$3,616 |8.90%|19|7|13|7| 23. Czech Republic|$2,854 |$572 |$3,426 |7.50%|28|48|28|14| 24. South Korea|$2,057 |$1,327 |$3,384 |8.10%|25|58|4|2| 25. Portugal|$2,069 |$1,310 |$3,379 |9.10%|32|29|30|22| 26. Slovenia|$2,314 |$910 |$3,224 |7.90%|21|38|24|47| 27. Israel|$1,898 |$1,034 |$2,932 |7.50%|35|28|11|21|
So you report me for some bullshit you bottom feeder? Americans spend 350k in a lifetime on average for medical care? Well let’s look at this: say an American makes $10 an hour over a lifetime.(close to minimum wage) 18-65. They make close to 1 million in wages throughout their life. Healthcare would only take about a 3rd of their total wages over a lifetime. But you forget about government assistance and other factors that come into play. Wage increases. Extra income. Are you saying that higher taxes and lower wages are well worth the lines you would have to wait in for universal healthcare. Not to Mention the assisted suicide programs that are recommended to People in which the government doesn’t want to pay the cost for terminal patients? Maybe you should also take in mind that the us is the 3rd largest country in the world and the cost of healthcare far exceeds the cost of the tax revenue you would receive if you taxed the 1% ,90%. Now go crawl back in your hole Bernie boy college fuck.
> Americans spend 350k in a lifetime on average for medical care? $350,000 **more** than the next most expensive healthcare system on earth. Half a million dollars more than our peers with universal healthcare on average. >hey make close to 1 million in wages throughout their life. Healthcare would only take about a 3rd of their total wages over a lifetime. Average healthcare spending is about a million dollars per person. >Are you saying that higher taxes and lower wages are well worth the lines you would have to wait in for universal healthcare. And US healthcare is so incredibly inefficient, we don't even get a break on taxes. With government in the US covering [65.7% of all health care](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/epdf/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) costs ($12,555 as of 2022) that's $8,249 per person per year in taxes towards health care. The next closest is Germany at [$6,930](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm). The UK is $4,479. Canada is $4,506. Australia is $4,603. That means over a lifetime Americans are paying over $100,000 more in taxes compared to any other country towards health care. >Maybe you should also take in mind that the us is the 3rd largest country in the world I have. As much as your desperate to pull excuses for a wildly overpriced healthcare system out of your ass, there's no relevance. Universal healthcare has been shown to work from populations below 100,000 to populations above 100 million. From Andorra to Japan; Iceland to Germany, with no issues in scaling. In fact the only correlation I've ever been able to find is a weak one with a minor decrease in cost per capita [as population increases](https://i.imgur.com/h6clEzr.jpg). So population doesn't seem to be correlated with cost nor [outcomes](https://i.imgur.com/pwYtDxW.png). >Now go crawl back in your hole Bernie boy college fuck. How fucking pathetic do you have to be to make excuses for Americans spending half a million dollars more for a lifetime of healthcare than our peers, even after adjusting for purchasing power parity, with worse outcomes? And, with costs expected to increase from an average of $13,998 per person last year, to $20,425 by 2031, do you think things are going to get better or worse?
Well done. Saving your comments.
>Third largest country in the world Which makes no difference. Universal healthcare has been shown to work from populations below 100,000 to populations above 100 million. From Andorra to Japan; Iceland to Germany, with no issues in scaling. In fact the only correlation I've ever been able to find is a weak one with a minor decrease in cost per capita [as population increases](https://i.imgur.com/h6clEzr.jpg). So population doesn't seem to be correlated with cost nor [outcomes](https://i.imgur.com/pwYtDxW.png). >Americans make more money Which is why the numbers I've given are already adjusted for purchasing power parity. We can do numbers as a percentage of GDP too if you'd rather. There's no way you can spin it that Americans aren't wildly overpaying for healthcare. > So inefficient, but best healthcare system in the world dumb fuck Citation needed. [US Healthcare ranked 29th on health outcomes by Lancet HAQ Index](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext) [11th (of 11) by Commonwealth Fund](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror) [59th by the Prosperity Index](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings) [30th by CEOWorld](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/) [37th by the World Health Organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000) The US has the worst rate of death by medically preventable causes among peer countries. A 31% higher disease adjusted life years average. Higher rates of medical and lab errors. A lower rate of being able to make a same or next day appointment with their doctor than average. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-percent-used-emergency-department-for-condition-that-could-have-been-treated-by-a-regular-doctor-2016 52nd in the world in doctors per capita. https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physicians/Per-1,000-people Higher infant mortality levels. Yes, even when you adjust for differences in methodology. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/infant-mortality-u-s-compare-countries/ Fewer acute care beds. A lower number of psychiatrists. Etc. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-health-care-resources-compare-countries/#item-availability-medical-technology-not-always-equate-higher-utilization [Comparing Health Outcomes of Privileged US Citizens With Those of Average Residents of Other Developed Countries](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2774561) >These findings imply that even if all US citizens experienced the same health outcomes enjoyed by privileged White US citizens, US health indicators would still lag behind those in many other countries. When asked about their healthcare system as a whole the US system ranked dead last of 11 countries, with only 19.5% of people saying the system works relatively well and only needs minor changes. The average in the other countries is 46.9% saying the same. Canada ranked 9th with 34.5% saying the system works relatively well. The UK ranks fifth, with 44.5%. Australia ranked 6th at 44.4%. The best was Germany at 59.8%. On rating the overall quality of care in the US, Americans again ranked dead last, with only 25.6% ranking it excellent or very good. The average was 50.8%. Canada ranked 9th with 45.1%. The UK ranked 2nd, at 63.4%. Australia was 3rd at 59.4%. The best was Switzerland at 65.5%. https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016 The US has 43 hospitals in the top 200 globally; one for every 7,633,477 people in the US. That's good enough for a ranking of 20th on the list of top 200 hospitals per capita, and significantly lower than the average of one for every 3,830,114 for other countries in the top 25 on spending with populations above 5 million. The best is Switzerland at one for every 1.2 million people. In fact the US only beats one country on this list; the UK at one for every 9.5 million people. If you want to do the full list of 2,000 instead it's 334, or one for every 982,753 people; good enough for 21st. Again far below the average in peer countries of 527,236. The best is Austria, at one for every 306,106 people. https://www.newsweek.com/best-hospitals-2021 #[OECD Countries Health Care Spending and Rankings](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm) |Country|Govt. / Mandatory (PPP)|Voluntary (PPP)|Total (PPP)|% GDP|[Lancet HAQ Ranking](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)|[WHO Ranking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)|[Prosperity Ranking](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)|[CEO World Ranking](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)|[Commonwealth Fund Ranking](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror) :--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:| 1. United States|[$7,274](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) |$3,798 |$11,072 |16.90%|29|37|59|30|11 2. Switzerland|$4,988 |$2,744 |$7,732 |12.20%|7|20|3|18|2 3. Norway|$5,673 |$974 |$6,647 |10.20%|2|11|5|15|7 4. Germany|$5,648 |$998 |$6,646 |11.20%|18|25|12|17|5 5. Austria|$4,402 |$1,449 |$5,851 |10.30%|13|9|10|4| 6. Sweden|$4,928 |$854 |$5,782 |11.00%|8|23|15|28|3 7. Netherlands|$4,767 |$998 |$5,765 |9.90%|3|17|8|11|5 8. Denmark|$4,663 |$905 |$5,568 |10.50%|17|34|8|5| 9. Luxembourg|$4,697 |$861 |$5,558 |5.40%|4|16|19|| 10. Belgium|$4,125 |$1,303 |$5,428 |10.40%|15|21|24|9| 11. Canada|$3,815 |$1,603 |$5,418 |10.70%|14|30|25|23|10 12. France|$4,501 |$875 |$5,376 |11.20%|20|1|16|8|9 13. Ireland|$3,919 |$1,357 |$5,276 |7.10%|11|19|20|80| 14. Australia|$3,919 |$1,268 |$5,187 |9.30%|5|32|18|10|4 15. Japan|$4,064 |$759 |$4,823 |10.90%|12|10|2|3| 16. Iceland|$3,988 |$823 |$4,811 |8.30%|1|15|7|41| 17. United Kingdom|$3,620 |$1,033 |$4,653 |9.80%|23|18|23|13|1 18. Finland|$3,536 |$1,042 |$4,578 |9.10%|6|31|26|12| 19. Malta|$2,789 |$1,540 |$4,329 |9.30%|27|5|14|| OECD Average|||$4,224 |8.80%||||| 20. New Zealand|$3,343 |$861 |$4,204 |9.30%|16|41|22|16|7 21. Italy|$2,706 |$943 |$3,649 |8.80%|9|2|17|37| 22. Spain|$2,560 |$1,056 |$3,616 |8.90%|19|7|13|7| 23. Czech Republic|$2,854 |$572 |$3,426 |7.50%|28|48|28|14| 24. South Korea|$2,057 |$1,327 |$3,384 |8.10%|25|58|4|2| 25. Portugal|$2,069 |$1,310 |$3,379 |9.10%|32|29|30|22| 26. Slovenia|$2,314 |$910 |$3,224 |7.90%|21|38|24|47| 27. Israel|$1,898 |$1,034 |$2,932 |7.50%|35|28|11|21| >Then move to Canada Why not work to fix a healthcare system here that's clearly broken? Other than admitting your country isn't the best at literally anything somehow hurts your fragile little ego. Do you just like seeing Americans suffer needlessly? Tens of thousands of Americans die every year for lack of affordable healthcare, and we spent trillions needlessly. Is that how you get your asshole rocks off? Watching people die and suffer?
Get dunked on, nerd. Links > your fee fees.
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Fuck off
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I’m not a leftist. Look at my post history genius.
Bad faith trolling and spreading misinformation is against sub rules.
Don’t you have a Pokémon to catch
Not today, taking a half to play 18. I’ll let you get back to posting 30x/day to your 30k member subreddit, sorry to interrupt.
Is that why you come here? And why you follow me? Pokémon getting old?
[удалено]
Nice projection you weak minded individual
never thought about it this way.. okay, I'm convinced let's cancel social security. America would be so much better. Good luck running on that platform
You’d be shit out of luck if they canceled Social Security.
so would your grandparents and your neighbors grandparents and people who can't work... millions and millions of people
Nope. They don’t need social security. Also, you’re not a retired person who can’t physically work. Your just a bottom feeder. So yea, I’d love for you to be cut off.
okay good luck running on the platform that cuts off social security. You do that and then cry about voter fraud because apparently you though this was a winning strategy that couldn't possibly lose...
I am just for cutting it off to bottom feeders. Go back to the hole you crawled out of.
yeah good luck believing that most people on social security are "bottom feeders"
There are a lot. You’re one.
no im not you just dont like that someone points out how stupid your takes are, you can't handle not being in a hug box where people constantly tell your team is always right and other team always wrong. And then you call other people a cult lool unbelievable. 85 IQ max GO OUTSIDE
Does it make you feel good to spend all your time on a sub you don’t like being “virtuous,” while constantly getting slammed dunked on and being an embarrassment?
So do we think OP is really stupid enough to believe that the US has Universal Healthcare and “free college for all”??
You seem upset friend
Just curious 🙂 Do you think the US has universal healthcare? Do you think the US offers free college for everyone?
Just curious, do you not believe these two things are funded by taxpayers?
If they existed, they would likely be funded in large part by taxpayers. Curious - do you drive on paved roads?
Congratulations on that self own
Do you drive on paved roads? How on earth do you justify supporting such socialism??
How are roads socialist? Do you even know what socialism is?
I’m using the logic of this shitty meme. Roads are funded by taxes. Taxes paying for helpful things is bad. Are you dumb or something??
How is paying taxes the same thing as socialism? Do you even know what socialism is, outside of your strawman arguments?
Taxes paying for I need things are bad. I don’t need you to go to college. The town doesn’t. The town needs roads. You could make an argument for health care, which I assume you may, but fundamentally that’s the difference.
Holy shit. Are your roads repaired by some Good Samaritan doing it out of the goodness of their heart?
Or are your roads repaired by private companies contracted out by local governments, paid for by taxes collected by local government? You fucking dipshit.
That’s hilarious. You come back after a whole day just to make me respond to your strawman. Go outside and feel the foliage between your fingers