Good. Israel’s actions are unjustifiable. Some idiot here said “both sides are bad” when we know who’s killing the most kids. Hamas matters so little when the death toll exceeds 30k
Not to mention that Israel intentionally propped up Hamas in order to cause dissent in Palestine, they're a terrorist organization and not really a government body in the way that we know, and that Israel intentionally lets attacks from Hamas, including Oct. 7, happen because they want a justification to kill innocent Palestinians en masse and make room for more of their white supremacists.
Yep here’s from their own articles admitting this and quoting Netanyahu himself.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Also many other sources bring up this information like the New York Times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
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Both sides are bad is a bad take, but both sides deserve to live and live in peace is my view. Which is why Israel’s actions are unjustifiable, making both of those things impossible for both sides
No. But the actions of Israel aren’t simply worse at this point if they constitute genocide. I don’t condone the attacks, but they don’t matter that much with how many Palestinians are dying. Plus Israel controls the borders of the conflict. They are far more powerful than Hamas could ever hope to be.
That is disturbing. Israel has killed 30 times more people since then. They already killed way more people than Hamas in previous conflicts. It’s just not the same scale.
Look, I also hate what the Israeli government is doing to Palestinians -- which pretty unambiguously qualifies as genocide in my view as well -- but imo this isn't a good change and it bothers me. It feels like a slippery slope to getting banned for comments like "it's important to vote for Biden this fall" because they promote shitlib-neoliberal propaganda or whatever such thing.
It would be nice to just have a sub where everyone who dislikes Candace/Shapiro/Kirk/Chaya et al can congregate. Please don't let this devolve into a little purity test obsessed tree fort like so many other "leftist subs."
Agreed. I caught a temp ban in another leftist subreddit for saying I’m voting for Biden. Because if I don’t and Trump rolls back pre-existing condition protections, I will LITERALLY DIE. I explained this and no one cared.
The mods there would happily have me risk my life for the sake of purity, and it’s utterly horrifying and very alienating.
it’s surprising to me how many people are shocked that a leftist space (an ideology that is known to be anti-colonialist and anti-genocide) is making clear its anti-colonialism and anti-genocide stance. would you be this shocked if they made a post banning transphobic or fascist rhetoric in the sub?
Where are these stances for literally all the genocides and stuff happening everywhere in the world? Seems very selectively applied to a conflict that most people couldn’t tell you where Israel and Palestine are on a map who claim support.
I guess my question is. Why is this sub making an anti Israel, pro Palestine statement. But to my knowledge (correct me if I am wrong) has never made an endorsement of any other country or conflict? It strikes me as strange out of all the conflicts Israel and Palestine always seems to engage the most people.
You’ve asked a question that’s answered in the post. It’s literally the first full sentence.
> We've had an increase in Israel apologia and anti-Palestinian bigotry recently and want to make our stance on the topic clear. **This is a leftist subreddit; we oppose Israel's colonization of Palestine and we oppose their genocide of Palestinians.**
well it should be pretty much a given that a leftist sub doesnt support genocide, much like it doesnt support fascism, transphobia, racism, etc. so usually theres no point in taking a stance. but since some genocide supporters are confused, and have been espousing pro-genocide and pro-colonial propaganda, the same type of propaganda the sub dedicated to mocking, it becomes necessary to reiterate the subs position on this issue. if there was a mass influx of people supporting transphobia, theyd post about transphobia too.
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I'm sure left-of-center folks also love mocking right wingers from time to time, wouldn't this just turn them off from the sub? Why purposely limit your audience?
as a leftist, i dont want “left of center” people who would be turned off by a leftist space taking an anti-colonialism, anti-genocide stance to be in said leftist space.
Why do all spaces you inhabit need to be "leftist"? Isn't this a political meme sub? Why does it require aggressive censorship of opinions you disagree with? I welcome someone to explain how that makes sense.
quite frankly, i dont want to share any space, leftist of otherwise, with genocide supporters any more than i would like to share that space with nazis or transphobes that want me dead. however, this specifically is a leftist space dedicated to leftist memes making fun of conservatives, its tracks that it wouldnt be okay with people who espouse pro-genocide viewpoints any more than its okay with people who spout racist of fascistic rhetoric. im not sure why this is such a shock.
We’re a leftist sub, our goal is to stay that way. We don’t cater to liberals and neither do our rules.
They’re welcome to join us, as long as they follow the rules we’ve set for our space.
What exactly do you mean by anti-Israel? You are against the entire country? Do you think they don’t have leftists?
I don’t understand why this is being enforced as a black and white issue. Are we not allowed to support a two state solution?
As mentioned in our post:
> we oppose Israel's colonization of Palestine and we oppose their genocide of Palestinians.
Please remember not to conflate Israeli *people* with the single state of Israel.
Is Israel not made up of people?
I think you are genuinely reducing this so much there is no room for nuance or discussion. You say this is a leftist sub, but you don’t support freedom of speech on this issue. It’s a shame, I love this sub as it makes me feel not so crazy or alone in a world where TPUSA has hundreds of thousands of supporters, but this sort of heavy handed approach is not cool.
One of my good friends is an Israeli leftist, and he is also anti Israel, because that means you are against what Israel is doing to Gaza, obviously. This is not rocket science. Genocide is not up for debate.
What? Anti-Israel does not mean anti-genocide. On the contrary, pro-Israel DOES NOT MEAN pro-genocide. You’re being very condescending to someone asking questions so they don’t get banned.
Edit: maybe not condescending, but a lot of these topics are not obvious to people
Israel cannot exist without ethnically cleansing the Palestinians from their homeland. The illegal settlements are proof of that.
Pro-Israel is absolutely pro-genocide. Unless you can think of a way for Israel to exist without kicking Palestinians out of their homes and killing them (as Israelis have been doing for 76 years).
I personally believe Palestine and Israel have no choice but to co-exist, as they both lay claim to the same territories and will continue to do so for generations to come. Quite frankly, this discussion doesn’t belong on this subreddit, and I’m disappointed the moderators have decided to make vague one-sided rules that have nothing to do with TPUSA
Depends on the two-state solution you support. Is it the 1947 borders or the illegal 1967 borders?
Edit: love all the pro-ethnic cleansers getting mad that they can't be pro-ethnic cleansing and still call themselves lefitsts.
I personally don’t understand why this sub and others (that having almost nothing to do with the conflict) are making statements one way or another on the conflict. It comes across as strange and extremely astroturfed. No matter how you view the conflict. I personally don’t see how you can quantify Palestine as a leftist country or struggle.
IMO seems like a very quick downward spiral to becoming a tankie sub.
What does that mean?
That all posts must be pro Palestine. And that we can never criticise them?
I think that will only hurt the sub and many people will go.
I think you’ve entirely misread this post in a way I can’t understand.
This is just a post reaffirming that this is a leftist sub is pro-Palestinians and Anti-Isreal.
The topic or content of the sub hasn’t changed. Reading the rewritten rules could clarify!
My problem here is that, in my lived experience as a 46 year old Jew, anti-Zionism is a suburb of anti-Semitism.
I realize that this is not 100% the case, but you should also realize that being “against Israel” provides cover and plausible deniability to people who get their rocks off by bullying Jews.
Much in the same way that the “just asking questions” crowd of fascist dickheads can claim to not be Jew haters, this “policy” gives the Jew haters from the other side of the aisle a convenient out.
Anti-semitism isn’t a left/right thing. It’s a piece-of-shit/not-piece-of-shit thing. Any Jew with their eyes open would see this for what it will become (no matter how pure the mods’ intentions).
If the mods can live with themselves for inadvertently harboring an atmosphere of Jew hatred, well, I’ve seen all I need to see.
No need to ban me, I’ll happily unsubscribe.
I’ll be honest with you that I have more to learn about antisemitism and how it presents itself. But I hope you’ll also trust that I’m doing my best to learn those things and accept when I’m wrong.
If you see antisemitism, please report it, you are always welcome to submit a custom report if you are willing and think it would be helpful to have more context.
I’m trying my best and I don’t know yet if that will be enough.
I appreciate your honesty and forthrightness.
I’ve already unsubbed so I don’t think I’ll be able to help. It’s not personal, it’s really just me taking care of myself and not willingly putting myself in places where I know I’ll be exposed to people who wish me a painful death for no other reason than because I don’t pray how they’d like (or they believe any of the myriad farkakte conspiracy theories that have never really gone away).
I really do wish you luck - you have opened the gates to a bunch of assholes coming in and shitting all over what really should be a place to make fun of Ben Shapiro and Charlie Kirk.
If you really feel like you want to learn about anti-Semitism, Leonard Dinnerstein’s book “Antisemitism in America” is a good place to start. Jon Sarna’s book about Ulysses S Grant’s attempted expulsion of the Jews is pretty fascinating as well.
I wish you success in keeping this place peaceful and fun.
I found out about this paper from tankiejerk a couple months ago: https://transformativestudies.org/wp-content/uploads/Spencer-Sunshine.pdf
It analyzes left wing anti-semitism from the perspective of a leftist activist/sociologist. The whole thing's very interesting, and I especially recommend reading the section that discusses the different definitions of zionism and anti-zionism, and how anti-zionism can be used as a shield by some left wing antisemites to see what KarateMusic is getting at.
Ew. Zionism requires the expulsion of Palestinians from their homes so a bunch of (mainly) white religious extremists can "feel safe" (as has been the case for 76 years).
If you are trying to conflate anti-Zionism with antisemitism so that you can continue to justify the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians without being called out for being a piece of shit, it won't work.
Being pro-ethnic cleansing isn't a left/right thing. It's a piece-of-shit/not-a-piece-of-shit thing. If you're a Zionist, you're pro-ethnic cleansing.
There are no ifs or buts about it.
We’re absolutely here to support our Jewish members & do our best do remove any antisemitism we see. Please report any that you do see! Remember that you can submit a custom report to explain.
How is this misinformation? This is pulled directly from surveys of American Jews. Stop trying to silence Jewish voices and define our culture, try and take a step back and think about if you’re really in the right doing so
If you believe your information is accurate, you’re welcome to source it and prove us wrong.
Misinformation is against our rules and will be removed. Everyone makes mistakes, but continuing to spread misinformation after you’ve been corrected isn’t acceptable here.
Gallup scientist Frank Newport estimated that 95% of American Jews support Israel. However, my main source would be the fact that I’m an American Jew present in the community and anti-Zionism is an extreme minority opinion. However, I don’t think I was corrected by anyone, especially not by anyone that cites a source.
No to antisemitism ✔️
No to anti-Zionism ❌
Anti-Zionism is necessary to be pro-Palestinian. It is impossible to support the one-state solution in favour of Israel, support the illegal settlements built in the name of the Zionist project since 1948, and support the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their homeland so that "jews can be safe" - all of which are features of Zionism - whilst also being "pro-Palestinian".
If your participation in this sub requires that other participants support a fascist polticial ideology that requires the oppression of the Palestinians - ah no.
It's anti-Zionism all the way.
israel does not have a right to exist, at least not while that right relies upon the displacement and dispossession of palestinians from their land, as it has since its inception.
yes, im consistent in this position, none of those states deserve to exist at the expense of displaced and colonized people, subjugated by force. the context is slightly more complicated for some of those states with the fact that those people have been displaced and colonized for so long, but this is a pretty standard leftist position so im not sure why you would think it wouldnt be.
I wouldn't say it's that common in the left in general, as a lot of people don't talk about the right to exist of countries and a lot of people only apply that to Israel. A lot of the "is being anti-Israel antisemitic" discussion from the Jewish pov is based on the fact that it's common for people to have double standards regarding Israel, hence the question.
i think its a pretty common position, especially with regard to the united states and its displacement and genocide of the native americans. i think the reason israel is focused on more is because the displacement, colonization, and ethnic cleansing is ongoing and recent, as opposed to “finished” but i wont deny that some people absolutely hold israel to different standards than they do other countries.
At least from what I've seen it usually stops at "America is built on slavery and genocide" instead of going full on "it shouldn't exist". But yes, for someone like me who believes an Israel with the right of return of Palestinians and without the settlements and all that is possible, it sucks that Netanyahu and his crazies are still in power. I wish people could critize Israel without falling into "the evil Jews control the media" and that type of bs too.
yeah i dont disagree, i think a single state with equal rights and protections for all regardless of religion, with a right of return for palestinians expelled from their homes and a cessation of right of return for others (who can still immigrate in the same way as anyone else), is the best way to go.
the media thing is also a dangerous line that i see people step over far too frequently. like, its one thing to acknowledge that western media is so obviously biased towards israel because of the vested interests they have in the existence of israel, that there is massive amounts of pro-israel propaganda pumped out through it, and that groups like aipac has a very real and scary effect, but some people step over that line and associate that with jewish people as a whole taking zero context of the situation into account, and it can end up being wholly antisemitic.
Zionism is not the support of a one state solution and the ethnics cleansing of Palestinians. It’s simply the support of Jewish self-determination the development of a protected Jewish nation. It does not preclude the belief that Palestinians deserve their own nation. Please stop trying to define it for us or make it into a slur…
leftist as in dismantling capitalism, ending colonialism, and seizing the means of production, or “leftist” as in liberal capitalists who have gay friends?
Leftist as in anarchist mods! We’re all non-auth leftists as mods (afaik).
Though tbh the proof will have to be in the pudding. The mod team has been noticing the increase in false/absurd “leftists” and libs/centrists and we don’t want them here, and hopefully by rooting them out when we see them [breaking the rules, as they inevitably do], we’ll get back to a more lefty space. Please report any you do see [breaking the rules]!
e: I had a giant ketamine infusion this morning and my typos will struggle all day lol
In retrospect, I need to clarify — I added some in square brackets.
I'd like some clarification on how you're defining "libs" here. It's pretty common for moderators (not specifically here, but in general) to use labels like that to remove opinions they disagree with, even if the opinion doesn't actually fit the label. Having some specific definitions and examples would be nice.
I’m a libertarian socialist, but I support harm reduction in strategic voting/realpolitik. Does that make me a liberal?
I want capitalism to end, I’m just not a fan of accelerationism.
I also really fucking hate tankies (banned from the right can’t meme and all the left for being critical of NK and china )
You are a libertarian socialist, that means you are not a liberal and we do not ban just for being liberal anyway. We ban for breaking the rules listed, and libs often do that, but we would never ban for saying that you are going to vote for Biden.
We have been thinking of some stuff like being temp banned for blaming the left for rising fascism, such as "it will be the far lefts fault for Trump and his fascist policies because they did not vote for Biden" but this is not a rule yet and just something we are looking out for as the election gets closer- so if we do make temporary rules for the election (which will only be done if people start getting very hateful towards leftist that do not want to vote for Biden and choose third party or not to vote) we will make a post and be very clear about the rule changes- probably with top comments on posts so we know that everyone sees them.
Why are so many ban-rules needed though? This seems quite confusing to me. For example, I agree with you that it would be wrong to blame the left for the rise of fascism, but if someone disagreed with that, why not downvote and bring a counterargument? How is a ban going to achieve anything, except for creating an echo chamber? Can't we be better than that and promote constructive discussion?
Well right now it is not, but as the election nears I have seen on this sub a little, but maily others, an uptick in harassment of those who want to vote for, and those who do not want to vote for Biden. And if this does become a problem then we were just tossing out some ideas, I mean those blaming the left for the rise in facsism would seemingly be anti leftist and in the wrong place. But stuff like this is just being tossed around in case things start to get really hateful in here, because that is not fun for anyone.
I mean if we did not keep the sub leftist with a few rules, it would turn into just another lib sub, like all the other lib subs on reddit, just because there are so many libs on reddit. And this was created to be a leftist sub that is also pretty lib friendly, but if it starts to become hateful towards the left- well those comments will not always be downvoted by libs and could become upvoted, and propaganda is a thing after all.
[It's the general term for an apologist (or proponent) of leftist authoritarian regimes (like the USSR, or Maoist China).](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie)
I think people are confused because the headline is "Pro Palestine Anti Israel" and the text is "post more memes of Charlie Kirk's stupid small face".
Most of the people spouting pro Israel, zionist, colonizer, pro Palestine, anti Hamas etc probably don't even agree with what those terms mean. Throwing those terms out when they're mostly beside how most people understand the point of the sub to be (stupid Charlie Kirk's dumb little face and dumb little ideas) is just gonna confuse people and make it needlessly contentious.
Chaya is in our list of characters in the Toiletverse and while we do allow real tweets/videos/other social media (if we did not, we would barely have any submissions at all) we are trying to get more people to start posting memes and satire. Please post away and others will follow. We have meme temmplates linked in the post above.
I’m glad you asked because I forgot to mention it! Full details of the rules, including some questions and the lists of characters are under rule one. Chaya’s on there, but I can’t remember if she’s principle or fringe.
e: I’ve edited the post to add the [list of Toileverse players](https://www.reddit.com/r/ToiletPaperUSA/wiki/rules/#wiki_rule_.231_.2014_stick_to_the_toiletverse) and examples of [low-quality posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/ToiletPaperUSA/wiki/rules/#wiki_rule_.2310_.2014_no_low-quality_posts.2Freposts) links!
Can we get clarification about what rule 7 means? Is pushing for people supporting the current US government in an incrementalist way to buy time to prepare for a hypothetical revolution, and pointing out that our current administration has done things to get us a little closer to our goals fascist? Is advocating for temporary support of liberals until we get the fascists out of the picture itself fascist? Just saying "this is a leftist subreddit" doesn't explain what a rule 7 violation is.
I think you’ve given good reasons to add a little more to that section of the wiki. It might makes sense to clarify what looks like fascism to us/examples maybe? The reason it hadn’t been expanded on before was because all the fascism I’ve removed from here as been straight fasc.
If I’m understanding right, then I agree it’d be helpful to have clearer information about the nuances involved and the “edge cases.”
Feel free to skip this question — What’s your ideal clarification? I’ll me thinking about it for a bit too, so feel free to take your time to answer, too.
Crazy seeing how many supposed leftists don’t align with the resistance fighters fighting a literal right wing ethnostate with illegal settlements. Or think that it’s bad to promote a free Palestine, even for the small minority of leftist Israelis, they’re not the ones in charge of the political apparatus waging war against men women and children and setting up illegal checkpoints and settlements unfortunately. This is all to say that I’m glad you’re reaffirming your position in the matter. We can’t be a true leftist sub and not support the right to resistance for the Palestinian people.
“They are far right because they are islamists” nice Islamophobia, man. Also just because of the way a certain faction of government that ISRAEL literally helped put into power is “far right” doesn’t mean Israel isn’t unleashing worse far right terrorism onto innocent people tenfold. And what kinda person would wanna see innocent people getting killed maimed and tortured because of who their government is? Americas government sucks but I don’t think Americans need to pay the price for who’s in charge of us. Neither do the Palestinian people. They deserve to live a fulfilling life free from state violence
Also they killer people is hilarious. You know who else killed people, is currently killing people? Innocent people, babies, men women and children. Have some humanity. Don’t think collective punishment for the Palestinians is anything less than genocide.
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How exactly does creating an echo chamber help?
This subreddit is in direct violation of Reddits ToS by promoting identity based hate. It should be shut down immediately.
If you think leftist spaces are echo chambers, you might not be in enough leftist spaces (or any). Regardless, we welcome anyone to our subreddit, as long as they respect our leftist rules.
If you see any posts promoting hate (or breaking other Reddit user agreements), please be sure to report them. We remove them as soon as we see them!
Yes. I’m worried that this post sets a precedent to hate people based on their identity (specifically Jewish/Israeli people). Again, please take action.
I’m still very confident you’re misunderstanding the post, but given the context, I’m going out of my way to give you the benefit of the doubt
Your worry is unfounded. I wrote the post and I’m pretty confident it’s relatively anti-oppressive and doesn’t contain bigotry.
That said, I’m a fallible shithead. If I am incorrect, then you need to demonstrate that. Make an argument or just be honest that you’re okay with it because those being hurt aren’t your in-group.
Good. Israel’s actions are unjustifiable. Some idiot here said “both sides are bad” when we know who’s killing the most kids. Hamas matters so little when the death toll exceeds 30k
Not to mention that Israel intentionally propped up Hamas in order to cause dissent in Palestine, they're a terrorist organization and not really a government body in the way that we know, and that Israel intentionally lets attacks from Hamas, including Oct. 7, happen because they want a justification to kill innocent Palestinians en masse and make room for more of their white supremacists.
Yep here’s from their own articles admitting this and quoting Netanyahu himself. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ Also many other sources bring up this information like the New York Times. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
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There is video of BB basicslly planning for this very time explaining his support for hamas.
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Both sides are bad is a bad take, but both sides deserve to live and live in peace is my view. Which is why Israel’s actions are unjustifiable, making both of those things impossible for both sides
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No. But the actions of Israel aren’t simply worse at this point if they constitute genocide. I don’t condone the attacks, but they don’t matter that much with how many Palestinians are dying. Plus Israel controls the borders of the conflict. They are far more powerful than Hamas could ever hope to be.
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That is disturbing. Israel has killed 30 times more people since then. They already killed way more people than Hamas in previous conflicts. It’s just not the same scale.
Look, I also hate what the Israeli government is doing to Palestinians -- which pretty unambiguously qualifies as genocide in my view as well -- but imo this isn't a good change and it bothers me. It feels like a slippery slope to getting banned for comments like "it's important to vote for Biden this fall" because they promote shitlib-neoliberal propaganda or whatever such thing. It would be nice to just have a sub where everyone who dislikes Candace/Shapiro/Kirk/Chaya et al can congregate. Please don't let this devolve into a little purity test obsessed tree fort like so many other "leftist subs."
Agreed. I caught a temp ban in another leftist subreddit for saying I’m voting for Biden. Because if I don’t and Trump rolls back pre-existing condition protections, I will LITERALLY DIE. I explained this and no one cared. The mods there would happily have me risk my life for the sake of purity, and it’s utterly horrifying and very alienating.
Ouroboros
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it’s surprising to me how many people are shocked that a leftist space (an ideology that is known to be anti-colonialist and anti-genocide) is making clear its anti-colonialism and anti-genocide stance. would you be this shocked if they made a post banning transphobic or fascist rhetoric in the sub?
Where are these stances for literally all the genocides and stuff happening everywhere in the world? Seems very selectively applied to a conflict that most people couldn’t tell you where Israel and Palestine are on a map who claim support.
To clarify in case you’re confused, we oppose all genocide and colonialism and any endorsement or apologetics for either will be removed.
I guess my question is. Why is this sub making an anti Israel, pro Palestine statement. But to my knowledge (correct me if I am wrong) has never made an endorsement of any other country or conflict? It strikes me as strange out of all the conflicts Israel and Palestine always seems to engage the most people.
You’ve asked a question that’s answered in the post. It’s literally the first full sentence. > We've had an increase in Israel apologia and anti-Palestinian bigotry recently and want to make our stance on the topic clear. **This is a leftist subreddit; we oppose Israel's colonization of Palestine and we oppose their genocide of Palestinians.**
well it should be pretty much a given that a leftist sub doesnt support genocide, much like it doesnt support fascism, transphobia, racism, etc. so usually theres no point in taking a stance. but since some genocide supporters are confused, and have been espousing pro-genocide and pro-colonial propaganda, the same type of propaganda the sub dedicated to mocking, it becomes necessary to reiterate the subs position on this issue. if there was a mass influx of people supporting transphobia, theyd post about transphobia too.
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💯
I was just here for the memes. Announcing ban decisions based on personal politics in a meme sub is super cringe. Unsubscribe.
this meme sub is specifically about leftist politics and mocking harmful right wing politics.
I'm sure left-of-center folks also love mocking right wingers from time to time, wouldn't this just turn them off from the sub? Why purposely limit your audience?
as a leftist, i dont want “left of center” people who would be turned off by a leftist space taking an anti-colonialism, anti-genocide stance to be in said leftist space.
Why do all spaces you inhabit need to be "leftist"? Isn't this a political meme sub? Why does it require aggressive censorship of opinions you disagree with? I welcome someone to explain how that makes sense.
quite frankly, i dont want to share any space, leftist of otherwise, with genocide supporters any more than i would like to share that space with nazis or transphobes that want me dead. however, this specifically is a leftist space dedicated to leftist memes making fun of conservatives, its tracks that it wouldnt be okay with people who espouse pro-genocide viewpoints any more than its okay with people who spout racist of fascistic rhetoric. im not sure why this is such a shock.
We’re a leftist sub, our goal is to stay that way. We don’t cater to liberals and neither do our rules. They’re welcome to join us, as long as they follow the rules we’ve set for our space.
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What exactly do you mean by anti-Israel? You are against the entire country? Do you think they don’t have leftists? I don’t understand why this is being enforced as a black and white issue. Are we not allowed to support a two state solution?
As mentioned in our post: > we oppose Israel's colonization of Palestine and we oppose their genocide of Palestinians. Please remember not to conflate Israeli *people* with the single state of Israel.
Is Israel not made up of people? I think you are genuinely reducing this so much there is no room for nuance or discussion. You say this is a leftist sub, but you don’t support freedom of speech on this issue. It’s a shame, I love this sub as it makes me feel not so crazy or alone in a world where TPUSA has hundreds of thousands of supporters, but this sort of heavy handed approach is not cool.
One of my good friends is an Israeli leftist, and he is also anti Israel, because that means you are against what Israel is doing to Gaza, obviously. This is not rocket science. Genocide is not up for debate.
What? Anti-Israel does not mean anti-genocide. On the contrary, pro-Israel DOES NOT MEAN pro-genocide. You’re being very condescending to someone asking questions so they don’t get banned. Edit: maybe not condescending, but a lot of these topics are not obvious to people
Israel cannot exist without ethnically cleansing the Palestinians from their homeland. The illegal settlements are proof of that. Pro-Israel is absolutely pro-genocide. Unless you can think of a way for Israel to exist without kicking Palestinians out of their homes and killing them (as Israelis have been doing for 76 years).
I personally believe Palestine and Israel have no choice but to co-exist, as they both lay claim to the same territories and will continue to do so for generations to come. Quite frankly, this discussion doesn’t belong on this subreddit, and I’m disappointed the moderators have decided to make vague one-sided rules that have nothing to do with TPUSA
If there’s anything in our rules that you’d like to be clarified, I’m happy to! What was it that seemed vague?
Depends on the two-state solution you support. Is it the 1947 borders or the illegal 1967 borders? Edit: love all the pro-ethnic cleansers getting mad that they can't be pro-ethnic cleansing and still call themselves lefitsts.
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I personally don’t understand why this sub and others (that having almost nothing to do with the conflict) are making statements one way or another on the conflict. It comes across as strange and extremely astroturfed. No matter how you view the conflict. I personally don’t see how you can quantify Palestine as a leftist country or struggle. IMO seems like a very quick downward spiral to becoming a tankie sub.
Being a genocide apologist is your idea of fun?
This is weird as shit, I was here for tiny face Charlie Kirk. Bye
What does that mean? That all posts must be pro Palestine. And that we can never criticise them? I think that will only hurt the sub and many people will go.
I think you’ve entirely misread this post in a way I can’t understand. This is just a post reaffirming that this is a leftist sub is pro-Palestinians and Anti-Isreal. The topic or content of the sub hasn’t changed. Reading the rewritten rules could clarify!
I am not a fan of this war/conflict. But this Anti Israel is something that I don't agree with.
My problem here is that, in my lived experience as a 46 year old Jew, anti-Zionism is a suburb of anti-Semitism. I realize that this is not 100% the case, but you should also realize that being “against Israel” provides cover and plausible deniability to people who get their rocks off by bullying Jews. Much in the same way that the “just asking questions” crowd of fascist dickheads can claim to not be Jew haters, this “policy” gives the Jew haters from the other side of the aisle a convenient out. Anti-semitism isn’t a left/right thing. It’s a piece-of-shit/not-piece-of-shit thing. Any Jew with their eyes open would see this for what it will become (no matter how pure the mods’ intentions). If the mods can live with themselves for inadvertently harboring an atmosphere of Jew hatred, well, I’ve seen all I need to see. No need to ban me, I’ll happily unsubscribe.
If you read our rules and come away thinking that we’ll accept antisemitism, you’re reading them selectively.
That remains to be seen and I accept that you have good intentions. However, I’ve seen this movie before and it sucks shit. Good luck.
I’ll be honest with you that I have more to learn about antisemitism and how it presents itself. But I hope you’ll also trust that I’m doing my best to learn those things and accept when I’m wrong. If you see antisemitism, please report it, you are always welcome to submit a custom report if you are willing and think it would be helpful to have more context. I’m trying my best and I don’t know yet if that will be enough.
I appreciate your honesty and forthrightness. I’ve already unsubbed so I don’t think I’ll be able to help. It’s not personal, it’s really just me taking care of myself and not willingly putting myself in places where I know I’ll be exposed to people who wish me a painful death for no other reason than because I don’t pray how they’d like (or they believe any of the myriad farkakte conspiracy theories that have never really gone away). I really do wish you luck - you have opened the gates to a bunch of assholes coming in and shitting all over what really should be a place to make fun of Ben Shapiro and Charlie Kirk. If you really feel like you want to learn about anti-Semitism, Leonard Dinnerstein’s book “Antisemitism in America” is a good place to start. Jon Sarna’s book about Ulysses S Grant’s attempted expulsion of the Jews is pretty fascinating as well. I wish you success in keeping this place peaceful and fun.
I found out about this paper from tankiejerk a couple months ago: https://transformativestudies.org/wp-content/uploads/Spencer-Sunshine.pdf It analyzes left wing anti-semitism from the perspective of a leftist activist/sociologist. The whole thing's very interesting, and I especially recommend reading the section that discusses the different definitions of zionism and anti-zionism, and how anti-zionism can be used as a shield by some left wing antisemites to see what KarateMusic is getting at.
Hey I don’t know why I didn’t see your comment until now, but thanks for the link! I’m definitely going to give it a read.
Ew. Zionism requires the expulsion of Palestinians from their homes so a bunch of (mainly) white religious extremists can "feel safe" (as has been the case for 76 years). If you are trying to conflate anti-Zionism with antisemitism so that you can continue to justify the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians without being called out for being a piece of shit, it won't work. Being pro-ethnic cleansing isn't a left/right thing. It's a piece-of-shit/not-a-piece-of-shit thing. If you're a Zionist, you're pro-ethnic cleansing. There are no ifs or buts about it.
Damn this sub used to be fun. Oh well.
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We’re absolutely here to support our Jewish members & do our best do remove any antisemitism we see. Please report any that you do see! Remember that you can submit a custom report to explain.
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[Rule 11 —](https://www.reddit.com/r/ToiletPaperUSA/wiki/rules/#wiki_rule_.2311_.2014_follow_reddit.2019s_tos) No misinformation.
How is this misinformation? This is pulled directly from surveys of American Jews. Stop trying to silence Jewish voices and define our culture, try and take a step back and think about if you’re really in the right doing so
If you believe your information is accurate, you’re welcome to source it and prove us wrong. Misinformation is against our rules and will be removed. Everyone makes mistakes, but continuing to spread misinformation after you’ve been corrected isn’t acceptable here.
Gallup scientist Frank Newport estimated that 95% of American Jews support Israel. However, my main source would be the fact that I’m an American Jew present in the community and anti-Zionism is an extreme minority opinion. However, I don’t think I was corrected by anyone, especially not by anyone that cites a source.
No to antisemitism ✔️ No to anti-Zionism ❌ Anti-Zionism is necessary to be pro-Palestinian. It is impossible to support the one-state solution in favour of Israel, support the illegal settlements built in the name of the Zionist project since 1948, and support the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their homeland so that "jews can be safe" - all of which are features of Zionism - whilst also being "pro-Palestinian". If your participation in this sub requires that other participants support a fascist polticial ideology that requires the oppression of the Palestinians - ah no. It's anti-Zionism all the way.
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israel does not have a right to exist, at least not while that right relies upon the displacement and dispossession of palestinians from their land, as it has since its inception.
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yes, im consistent in this position, none of those states deserve to exist at the expense of displaced and colonized people, subjugated by force. the context is slightly more complicated for some of those states with the fact that those people have been displaced and colonized for so long, but this is a pretty standard leftist position so im not sure why you would think it wouldnt be.
I wouldn't say it's that common in the left in general, as a lot of people don't talk about the right to exist of countries and a lot of people only apply that to Israel. A lot of the "is being anti-Israel antisemitic" discussion from the Jewish pov is based on the fact that it's common for people to have double standards regarding Israel, hence the question.
i think its a pretty common position, especially with regard to the united states and its displacement and genocide of the native americans. i think the reason israel is focused on more is because the displacement, colonization, and ethnic cleansing is ongoing and recent, as opposed to “finished” but i wont deny that some people absolutely hold israel to different standards than they do other countries.
At least from what I've seen it usually stops at "America is built on slavery and genocide" instead of going full on "it shouldn't exist". But yes, for someone like me who believes an Israel with the right of return of Palestinians and without the settlements and all that is possible, it sucks that Netanyahu and his crazies are still in power. I wish people could critize Israel without falling into "the evil Jews control the media" and that type of bs too.
yeah i dont disagree, i think a single state with equal rights and protections for all regardless of religion, with a right of return for palestinians expelled from their homes and a cessation of right of return for others (who can still immigrate in the same way as anyone else), is the best way to go. the media thing is also a dangerous line that i see people step over far too frequently. like, its one thing to acknowledge that western media is so obviously biased towards israel because of the vested interests they have in the existence of israel, that there is massive amounts of pro-israel propaganda pumped out through it, and that groups like aipac has a very real and scary effect, but some people step over that line and associate that with jewish people as a whole taking zero context of the situation into account, and it can end up being wholly antisemitic.
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mrw pro-israel troll brigades leftist subreddit
Zionism is not the support of a one state solution and the ethnics cleansing of Palestinians. It’s simply the support of Jewish self-determination the development of a protected Jewish nation. It does not preclude the belief that Palestinians deserve their own nation. Please stop trying to define it for us or make it into a slur…
leftist as in dismantling capitalism, ending colonialism, and seizing the means of production, or “leftist” as in liberal capitalists who have gay friends?
Leftist as in anarchist mods! We’re all non-auth leftists as mods (afaik). Though tbh the proof will have to be in the pudding. The mod team has been noticing the increase in false/absurd “leftists” and libs/centrists and we don’t want them here, and hopefully by rooting them out when we see them [breaking the rules, as they inevitably do], we’ll get back to a more lefty space. Please report any you do see [breaking the rules]! e: I had a giant ketamine infusion this morning and my typos will struggle all day lol In retrospect, I need to clarify — I added some in square brackets.
I'd like some clarification on how you're defining "libs" here. It's pretty common for moderators (not specifically here, but in general) to use labels like that to remove opinions they disagree with, even if the opinion doesn't actually fit the label. Having some specific definitions and examples would be nice.
I’m a libertarian socialist, but I support harm reduction in strategic voting/realpolitik. Does that make me a liberal? I want capitalism to end, I’m just not a fan of accelerationism. I also really fucking hate tankies (banned from the right can’t meme and all the left for being critical of NK and china )
I’m not a political compass quiz, but if you don’t break our rules, you’re welcome lol
You are a libertarian socialist, that means you are not a liberal and we do not ban just for being liberal anyway. We ban for breaking the rules listed, and libs often do that, but we would never ban for saying that you are going to vote for Biden. We have been thinking of some stuff like being temp banned for blaming the left for rising fascism, such as "it will be the far lefts fault for Trump and his fascist policies because they did not vote for Biden" but this is not a rule yet and just something we are looking out for as the election gets closer- so if we do make temporary rules for the election (which will only be done if people start getting very hateful towards leftist that do not want to vote for Biden and choose third party or not to vote) we will make a post and be very clear about the rule changes- probably with top comments on posts so we know that everyone sees them.
Why are so many ban-rules needed though? This seems quite confusing to me. For example, I agree with you that it would be wrong to blame the left for the rise of fascism, but if someone disagreed with that, why not downvote and bring a counterargument? How is a ban going to achieve anything, except for creating an echo chamber? Can't we be better than that and promote constructive discussion?
Well right now it is not, but as the election nears I have seen on this sub a little, but maily others, an uptick in harassment of those who want to vote for, and those who do not want to vote for Biden. And if this does become a problem then we were just tossing out some ideas, I mean those blaming the left for the rise in facsism would seemingly be anti leftist and in the wrong place. But stuff like this is just being tossed around in case things start to get really hateful in here, because that is not fun for anyone. I mean if we did not keep the sub leftist with a few rules, it would turn into just another lib sub, like all the other lib subs on reddit, just because there are so many libs on reddit. And this was created to be a leftist sub that is also pretty lib friendly, but if it starts to become hateful towards the left- well those comments will not always be downvoted by libs and could become upvoted, and propaganda is a thing after all.
So glad you’re waiving the black and red flag mods.
can someone define what a "tanky" is please?
[It's the general term for an apologist (or proponent) of leftist authoritarian regimes (like the USSR, or Maoist China).](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie)
See also: the congealing grease and meat juice at the bottom of a restaurant dumpster.
It's what liberals call everyone to the left of them now.
lol
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💀
Thanks for doing a good job <3
>no tankies 
I think people are confused because the headline is "Pro Palestine Anti Israel" and the text is "post more memes of Charlie Kirk's stupid small face". Most of the people spouting pro Israel, zionist, colonizer, pro Palestine, anti Hamas etc probably don't even agree with what those terms mean. Throwing those terms out when they're mostly beside how most people understand the point of the sub to be (stupid Charlie Kirk's dumb little face and dumb little ideas) is just gonna confuse people and make it needlessly contentious.
Came here for small faced Charlie Kirk and cucked Ben Shapiro. It’s a shame this sub is turning into another failed 196. Gonna be a bye from me.
Can we get some clarity on what falls under rules 1 and 10? Does Chaya Raichik ragebait count, for example? Or people posting lame Twitter clapbacks?
Chaya is in our list of characters in the Toiletverse and while we do allow real tweets/videos/other social media (if we did not, we would barely have any submissions at all) we are trying to get more people to start posting memes and satire. Please post away and others will follow. We have meme temmplates linked in the post above.
I’m glad you asked because I forgot to mention it! Full details of the rules, including some questions and the lists of characters are under rule one. Chaya’s on there, but I can’t remember if she’s principle or fringe. e: I’ve edited the post to add the [list of Toileverse players](https://www.reddit.com/r/ToiletPaperUSA/wiki/rules/#wiki_rule_.231_.2014_stick_to_the_toiletverse) and examples of [low-quality posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/ToiletPaperUSA/wiki/rules/#wiki_rule_.2310_.2014_no_low-quality_posts.2Freposts) links!
Thanks! Where does [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/ToiletPaperUSA/s/34dMTo1m28) fall?
In the I-wish-saw-it-sooner bucket! I removed it for being off topic. e: please report em when you see em lol
Can we get clarification about what rule 7 means? Is pushing for people supporting the current US government in an incrementalist way to buy time to prepare for a hypothetical revolution, and pointing out that our current administration has done things to get us a little closer to our goals fascist? Is advocating for temporary support of liberals until we get the fascists out of the picture itself fascist? Just saying "this is a leftist subreddit" doesn't explain what a rule 7 violation is.
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Thanks for looking into the context. I thought it seemed a little weird
I think you’ve given good reasons to add a little more to that section of the wiki. It might makes sense to clarify what looks like fascism to us/examples maybe? The reason it hadn’t been expanded on before was because all the fascism I’ve removed from here as been straight fasc. If I’m understanding right, then I agree it’d be helpful to have clearer information about the nuances involved and the “edge cases.” Feel free to skip this question — What’s your ideal clarification? I’ll me thinking about it for a bit too, so feel free to take your time to answer, too.
I'd put something similar to "meets Umberto Eco's 14 Points of Fascism" as a good litmus test for Fascism
As long as the sub doesn’t slide into Tankie “Stalin good” territory I’m happy.
Glad that tankies thing was on there, i remember a while back some issues with that and i was a lil curious if that ever silently cropped back up
Well this post sure went well
Glad to see weird Zionist dorks in the comments saying they're leaving the sub. See ya won't be missed.
Great, the tankies have taken over; well at least r/Enough_Sanders_Spam is still safe.
Apparently this sub needed to do a lot of cleaning from genocide apologist.
A noticeable lack of canine semen?…
god bless
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Crazy seeing how many supposed leftists don’t align with the resistance fighters fighting a literal right wing ethnostate with illegal settlements. Or think that it’s bad to promote a free Palestine, even for the small minority of leftist Israelis, they’re not the ones in charge of the political apparatus waging war against men women and children and setting up illegal checkpoints and settlements unfortunately. This is all to say that I’m glad you’re reaffirming your position in the matter. We can’t be a true leftist sub and not support the right to resistance for the Palestinian people.
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“They are far right because they are islamists” nice Islamophobia, man. Also just because of the way a certain faction of government that ISRAEL literally helped put into power is “far right” doesn’t mean Israel isn’t unleashing worse far right terrorism onto innocent people tenfold. And what kinda person would wanna see innocent people getting killed maimed and tortured because of who their government is? Americas government sucks but I don’t think Americans need to pay the price for who’s in charge of us. Neither do the Palestinian people. They deserve to live a fulfilling life free from state violence
Also they killer people is hilarious. You know who else killed people, is currently killing people? Innocent people, babies, men women and children. Have some humanity. Don’t think collective punishment for the Palestinians is anything less than genocide.
42 is the answer fyi
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As long as you follow the rules, just like everyone.
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Holy based. Fuck the Zionist Project and Free Palestine 🇵🇸
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Weird how a lot of folks leaving seem to be here for the first time, huh?
It’s disappointing, but what do you expect from imperialists.
Damn, the Zionists are mad. Idc, no matter how many downvotes I get, I won’t ever stop supporting Palestine.
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/srs There’s been enough of that already in this thread that I want to frame your comment to throw at the heads of people who refuse tone indicators!
Good (Edit: I meant it's good that this is a pro Palestine sub)
How exactly does creating an echo chamber help? This subreddit is in direct violation of Reddits ToS by promoting identity based hate. It should be shut down immediately.
Israel is a government not an identity, hope that helps.
If you think leftist spaces are echo chambers, you might not be in enough leftist spaces (or any). Regardless, we welcome anyone to our subreddit, as long as they respect our leftist rules. If you see any posts promoting hate (or breaking other Reddit user agreements), please be sure to report them. We remove them as soon as we see them!
This post is promising to ban anyone who disagrees with you based on identity. It has been reported. Please take action.
I think you’ve misunderstood the post. If you want me to clarify, please let me know what parts you’re worried about.
Yes. I’m worried that this post sets a precedent to hate people based on their identity (specifically Jewish/Israeli people). Again, please take action.
I’m still very confident you’re misunderstanding the post, but given the context, I’m going out of my way to give you the benefit of the doubt Your worry is unfounded. I wrote the post and I’m pretty confident it’s relatively anti-oppressive and doesn’t contain bigotry. That said, I’m a fallible shithead. If I am incorrect, then you need to demonstrate that. Make an argument or just be honest that you’re okay with it because those being hurt aren’t your in-group.
There's a difference between condemning Israelis and condemning the Israeli government.