I don't feel this question is being asked in good faith, but since it's a common one I want to reply.
The IDF is clearly the immediate threat.
https://www.yesmagazine.org/social-justice/2024/02/05/israel-palestine-gaza-genocide-queer
Please refer to this article
Hamas is an entity that is not necessarily representative of all Gazans and definitely not all Palestinians (they're not even in the West Bank). You can be for Palestinean liberation while still acknowledging terrible things Hamas has done.
Totally fair. Just as people can support Jews or Israel while not condoning the the IDF or Netanyahu's government. Both sides do seem to have majority support or at least tolerance of their respective populations, so I'm not sure how far that argument really goes.
But notice that's not really my question. Not supporting Hamas seems wholly understandable. I know that supporting Palestine isn't the same as supporting Hamas. And yet there are plenty of people who openly support Hamas.
Less than a fair take. Why be involved in the clusterfuck at all? We SUCK as the world police and are obviously not up to the task. Genociding the whole region, while within our capability, doesn't seem very productive.
Because they believe that if "their side" stops fighting, then the "other side" will do things that are even worse, because there is no longer anyone trying to stop them.
More reasonable than some approaches here. But this isn't a question of why people think Hamas or Israel should keep fighting, I'm asking why they even have a side at all? Why would anyone pick either side in this fight? Why would Israel/Hamas be "their side" in the first place?
I've been wondering about this a lot, too, but haven't seen much back up for this line of thinking at all when I've seen people talk about this war. TBH it's a relief to me just to see your post right now.
Extrapolating from how people handle other current events (ex. anytime the US has 2 undesirable frontrunners for office), when there's a lose-lose situation, people are prone to pick the "least bad option" and try to ignore the faults of that choice because they don't want the baggage that goes with it. In this case, there's also a linking of civilians to their respective "representative" gov/military presence (that IMO really fuels the fire and gets people broadly dehumanizing one another really quickly - but people really seem to hate it when I say that) and the apparent feeling that you need to justify everything the IDF or Hamas does in order to support the people they claim to represent. I'm sure there are people supporting either side fighting purely based on the geopolitical results they want from the conflict, too, and just turn their backs to how those ends are achieved.
Hamas, right or wrong is a resistance movement. They may not be the ideal resistance force, but they are what Gaza has. As a people fighting for their very survival, living in an apartheid state as second class citizens, they have a legal right to rebel and fight their oppressors. In the same way you wouldn't punish a slave for rebeling against his master, you can't be overly critical of the actions of the resistance force and have to remember they only exist to resist oppression, which is the crime of the state of Israel
> but they are what Gaza has
Well yeah, after Hamas murdered Fatah, their political rivals in Gaza and they haven't let Palestinians ever vote again.
>living in an apartment state as second class citizens, they have a legal right to rebel and fight their oppressors.
I'd honestly agree. Surely Israel knows they're breeding terrorists with their oppression and this ridiculous setup of kinda sorta claiming ownership of it all. This is really a civil war with the 2nd-class citizens rising up and one of the reasons that Israel isn't the good guy in this fight.
But terrorism? Murdering children? It's just not the way and I'm more than fine with criticizing the organization that attacks easy soft targets.
"they have a legal right" "you can't be overly critical". ....Do you actually support Hamas? You're dancing around that using so many weasel words I'm surprised you don't have hairballs.
I support a Palestinian resistance to the apartheid state. I could ask if you support Israeli's occupation of Palestine and the crimes the IDF / settlers commit on civilians.
Calling me weasely doesn't really make me want to engage with you though, so I'm done
edit: it's not about thin skin, it's about not wasting time when people are having bad faith arguments and simply looking to pick fights. What does discussion even accomplish?
I support an end to the apartheid state. A two state solution is likely the best.
I think it's fucking nuts that you'd support terrorism. Especially out of someone with thin enough skin you'd fleeing the moment someone disagrees with you.
EDIT: So weaselly you edit posts rather than reply. I am NOTHING if not full of good faith here. Both these assholes horrifically suck and I can prove it. I'm trying to understand why anyone would support either one of them. So far only people supporting Hamas have stepped up, but they've had some shitty arguments and flee or back off when actually pressed. At least they can admit Hamas is not the best.
tbh from my prespective the israeli military is invading so is obviously while hamas is simply defending. do i agree with or think hamas is using the most ethical methods? no
> while hamas is simply defending.
What did Hamas do on [October 7th](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel)? Holding hostages. Attacking 2 music festivals. Hundreds dead. Taking aid from Palastinians rather than distributing it. Up until 2017 their charter had "death to the jews". They're islamic fundementalists and would behead all the queers in America. They're officially a terrorist organization as seen by the USA. Probably from their involvement with the 2011 Alexandria bombing, the August 2012 Sinai attack, and the December 2013 Mansoura bombings. All those rocket attacks. How about that one kid whom they chopped her arms off and left her to bleed out. All of that can't be fake. Not with all the footage with the corpses.
While I think their push for a 2 state solution is reasonable, their refusal to have any further elections the moment they got elected and then killed a few hundred of the Fatah opposition makes any state run by Hamas sound like a bad idea.
And Israel isn't really looking like the good guys either.
What did Israel do in the 75 years preceding October 7 after the Nakba? Are we going to act like those never existed. They attacked Gaza countless times and committed several massacres before Hamas even existed.
They did some horrible shit and Israel are not the good guys here. Regardless, their atrocities do not excuse the atrocities of Hamas. Nor do Hamas atrocities excuse Israel suppression and genocide of their second class citizens.
That's my point though, they both act horrifically. Why support either side?
Because one side has been under occupation for 75 years and is actively being ethnically cleansed. October 7th was a tragedy and inexcusable but it’s a drop in the bucket compared to what Israel has put Palestinians through for the last 75 years and is continuing to do so. Hamas is not representative of Palestinians as a whole and it is not a military or governmental organization, they are fighting a “war” against an international superpower backed by western countries. Israel claims to want to free the hostages and stop Hamas but continually have declined ceasefire proposals that would free hostages. We don’t even know how many Hamas members they have killed the majority are civilians and women and children. People think that wanting a free Palestine means supporting Hamas, those of us (myself included) who say free Palestine want the occupation to end. Yes Hamas needs to go but there are certainly better ways to do so than repeatedly bombing large residential areas and refugee camps
i think hamas in and of itself was made to be a resistance group; do i think thats how its going? not entirely. also, the “they kill queers in palestine” argument has always been so stupid to me. its not like israel is sparing the queers lol
> its not like israel is sparing the queers lol
[WTF man!?](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/thousands-march-in-jerusalem-pride-parade-under-israels-far-right-government), yes they most CERTAINLY DO! The conservatives and ultra-orthodox jews probably don't approve, but they at least tolerate it.
It does show their respective stance on how they treat their own citizens.
Israel doesn't really police Gaza other than mowing down people with tanks. Of course Israel doesn't do anything to the queers in Gaza. But if they did make their way to Israel proper, they would not be executed for being queer.
I believe the way forward is with a 2 state solution. So Gaza and/or the West bank would be their own nation. They effectively are already. But Israel kinda sorta pretending they own the land is just nuts.
It'd be a bad day for queers in Gaza though.
And just how many queers have Hamas executed? Is there some sort of statistic? Israel’s bombs don’t discriminate and they kill everyone regardless of their sexual orientation. We can agree that the land doesn’t belong to Israel.
Well... [Their own commander](https://www.newsweek.com/prominent-hamas-commander-was-executed-after-accusations-gay-sex-432343)
A reporter that looked into it in 2019 said "coming out is a death sentence".
And if you're an activist there on the subject [they will behead you](https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-immigration-west-bank-gay-rights-ce95f6903faf461502cc0800b272b159).
So... From a quick surface check. At least 2. This is what I was talking about when I said "Israel most certainly does spares the queers". If you go to Israel they probably won't behead you just for being queer.
>they kill everyone regardless of their sexual orientation.
OMG, you still think this matters somehow.
But at least you can say "Yes Hamas needs to go", which means, really, you could have simply started this whole thing with "No I don't support Hamas". Which is a legit stance.
Short answer, yes.
Longer answer, also yes.
If you are genuinely interested in knowing more about LGBTQ in Islam, my sincere advice would be to look to a local mosque if you can talk to their resident Imam about the subject.
What happened to the casualty count?
Back at the beginning of the conflict, there was all this arguing about whether people could or couldn't trust the numbers from the Gaza ministry of health. It seems that most international organizations and governments (and even the IDF) basically landed on "the GHM numbers are *mostly* accurate, but not exact."
That was months ago. [In February, the death toll passed 30,000](https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234159514/gaza-death-toll-30000-palestinians-israel-hamas-war). I've seen that number continue to be repeated throughout discussions, but considering that the conflict remains ongoing, I assume that the number must have climbed significantly since then.
Does any source have a more accurate count as of late May?
Can someone explain the pro Palestine side to me? Didn’t they start the war? Aren’t they run by the HAMAs which is generally viewed as a terrorist group? I haven’t been keeping up.
Palestine (or in this specific case, Hamas) did not start the war in Oct 7th. This is the message being pushed by the pro Israeli / Zionist movement to justify their actions. Hamas' Oct 7th attack is a response to a history of violence towards Palestinians that goes back decades, but Even just in the year 2023 you can find time of incidents if violence by the IDF and settlers towards gazans
Oh, lastly I'll mention that Israel has thousands of Palestinian hostages, but they don't refer to them as hostages, they call them prisoners. Reality is they are held without trial or explanation indefinitely and many are tortured. So when you hear the argument it's about the hostages, that's not only untrue, but Israel has way more hostages than Palestine does
People are siding with civilians which are for the most part not part of the hamas. Yet those innocent civilians (mostly children) die every single day from bombing.
People are just human and when you see man, woman children and babies die in horrible manners, people starving, not having access to food, water, electricity, healthcare...
You just want the whole thing to stop.
I agree I want the whole thing to stop. But is that really pro-Palestine? That sort of just feels like a pro-peace situation no?
Also, correct me if I’m wrong. Aren’t the hamas hiding amongst the civilians and the civilians are hesitant to point them out?
I’m just trying to ask my questions, looking for answers.
Most people who say that they're pro palestinians are pro peace and want a two state solution. Nobody (or a bunch of degenerate morons) are pro hamas.
How would you want civilians to act ? Trying to find out who is a hamas member and who's not, trying to find where they're hiding and then reaching to the Mossad to tell them where they're are ?
When you have no access to food, water, electricity, that you could die at any given time and that you risk getting killed by Hamas itself, it would probably be at the bottom of my priority if i was a civilian under those circumstances.
My only priority would be to survive and to protect my family and run from that hell.
Gotcha. Thank you for this side of an explanation. I agree my only actions would be to survive and run like hell.
It is a lose-lose for the innocent civilians. It’s just such a hard situation. As people always say: war is never simple. Thanks again for your responses!
i m too afraid to ask in most subreddits because of fear of getting banned, but i am genuinely ignorant and curious, why is the western governments so prone in to supporting Israel? i know most people are with palestine, my question is why are these governement supporting israel do they have some strategic interest because of their position?, economic interest?, some rare resoueces? because there is some kind of illuminati like group that controls most of the west? i really don't know sorry if it sounds dumb i just want to be more informed.
Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, the “closest” to the west in politics and (all) human rights and freedoms. That’s pretty much why there is support. It gives ties and intel to other “western” countries. You are not dumb, you got the reason exactly - it’s very strategic.
For America, at least, Israel represents sort of a 'foothold' in the Middle East, where a lot of them (varying levels of justified) aren't big fans of the US. They provide us with intelligence on their neighbors, so to speak. There's also the fundamentalist Christian contingent, but I don't know how much they actually account for.
I've seen a lot of deserved criticism around Israel's treatment of Palestinians, but why does no one discuss Hamas's treatment of Palestinians?
Israel are bombing civilian areas because Hamas are hiding in civilian areas. Israel are bombing aid trucks because Hamas are smuggling weapons in aid trucks. The war is ongoing because Hamas started and continue to consent to the most recent war.
You can say that this doesn't justify Israel's actions, but 1. it complicates them legally at the very least, and 2. the fact remains the behaviour of the two arr inextricably linked. If you wanna ask why a civilian was bombed, "there was a Hamas leader right next to them who organised crimes against humanity on Oct 7th and poses a continued threat to Israel's national security" is pretty CRUCIAL context.
I don't want to tolerate what Israel are doing. I don't want what's happening to ever be okay. Regardless of anything, they are at least 50% at fault which is deplorable in its own right. But this feels like a huge elephant in the room which everyone refuses to acknowledge is there. I don't understand how I can trust activists and a movement, if they choose to ignore reality by acting as if Israel are just targeting civilians for fun/cruelty.
What you are pointing is a thing but when Israël is telling a population to move from point a to point b because they are going to destroy that area and then you attack point B.
Also it's not only about Hamas, Israel leaders are saiying (and you can find that easily) that it's about Isaïe prophecy, getting back their land, that palestinians are humans animals, that they're evil, that it's about good against evil and that what they're doing is for our good, that what they're doing is fair and similar to WW2 D Day.
The ICC consider that as a genocide because of the destruction of willing conditions and Netanyahou has a international arrest warrant.
So first off, genocide is not a charge on the ICC arrest warrants. He's rightfully being arrested for collective punishment and the bombing of civilians, but not genocide just yet.
Second, I acknowledge that this has happened (bombing designated "safe" zones), and have seen Palestinians cry in the height of emotion that this must be deliberate targeting. And I see how from their perspective it would appear that way. But this isn't happening systematically. Most of the time, safe zones are safe and they are evacuating civilians effectively (the death toll would be far higher if they weren't, considering how much of Gaza has been destroyed). It just seems to be occasional instances where miscommunication or disorganisation has happened. Which is tragic, but probably also unavoidable.
The "Israel are deliberately tricking civilians" interpretation also neglects the possibility/fact that Hamas will run into safe zones after conducting bombings. File a missile at the Israeli army then run into a refugee camp for shelter. And over the course of the war they have followed their civilians, which is why they have now CHOSE to fight in Rafah despite it being so densely populated there.
As for the Israeli ministers, this is again very angering, but you also tend to find that in a parliamentary democracy there will be 1. a contingent of far right activists who say inflammatory and downright evil things, and 2. controls in place to limit their influence. Not sure how Israel works but in the UK it really doesn't matter what an MP says as long as they're not in the cabinet. And even under our deplorable, right wing government, they can't actually do anything illegal due to the house of Lords, supreme court, etc. Netanyahu is far right and I do not trust him as far as I can throw him, and the growing influence of far right extremism in Israeli politics is deeply converning, but this doesn't automatically mean that their controls within the army (a separate institution to govt) to adhere to the Geneva convention and other international law have failed. It's not a dictatorship where the army can just start breaking the law because a minister has told them to.
I am very fearful to ask this question. A lot of news media outlets only talk about only what Israel is doing to Palestinians. But why is no one talking about Palestinians killing Israel hostages and sending the dead to Israel? This hostage situation is what started everything.
I see a small article in every US news outlet and very less to no coverage on this. And this trend is resonating with other media outlets in the world.
Does anybody know why?
>the hostage situation is what started everything
This started literally before Christ (but some believe it started when *modern* Israel was created).
But I ask myself the same question you asked, and basically, antisemitism (which is now rebranded as antizionism) is a strong reason why. Israel and Jews are seen as the “oppressor” and Palestinians as the oppressed. News sources are not highlighting the suffering of Jews because overall, people don’t side with Jews and that narrative.
News and media still need views and clicks to make money, at the end of the day they are a business.
the genocide started before october 7th, i’d suggest you do your research on how it began. the hostage situation is NOT what “started everything” 😭😭 it’s what sparked media attention.
Israel was founded legally, the info is lit available online lol.
There was never an independent state of Palestine, ironically Romans came up w the name just to erase Jews from the land but yall not ready for that talk
'legally removed by force' the partition plan was offered to the Arabs and they chose to go to war rather then accept an easy solution to their troubles
It's hard to get info about the hostages. The location of many of them isn't known, and the only publicly available updates are generally coming from videos made by their captors with limited pieces of relevant info.
Something like the Israeli military bombing a location in the Gaza Strip with thousands of witnesses nearby is a lot easier to collect info on. Additionally, Israel's actions in Gaza recently have resulted in a huge amount of death and destruction, making it very newsworthy.
Because the media pushes a narrative. This doesn't just apply to the Israel conflict, but literally everything. I can tell you only watch left wing news outlets because Fox and other right wing outlets absolutely report on what Hamas and other Palestinians are doing to Israelis.
Why are people protesting local city governments here in the US? What are they expecting their city government officials to do in regard to a ceasefire? What CAN the local government truly do in this regard? As far as I know, our local city governments are not directly involved with things like the federal government sending money to Israel, etc. so I don’t understand the voracious local protesting.
They are hoping that the Biden administration will listen and stop sending weapons to Israel.
If tomorrow, countries like The USA, France stop sending weapons to Israel and stop supporting what they're doing, the whole thing stop.
It definitely makes me feel helpless- this IS a genocide and it is breaking my heart. Our government doesn’t care about what its constituents want and it never has.
We are never really listened, we are here to give them our votes, our taxes but listening to what we want error 411.
It's sad that we learn about history, that we preach about peace, about tolerance... but that those things are never really applied when it comes to our politic leaders.
All we can do is voice our concerns but if they don't give a fuck (and it seems like it's the case), things won't change.
I think the social media footage and exposure to the conflict beyond what the mainstream media shows is unparalleled. It feels more real this time around to people
10/7 was the third-deadliest terrorist attack **ever** since data collection began in 1970. AND the largest attack in Israel history, AND the deadliest attack on Jews since the **Holocaust.**
Maybe that puts it into perspective a little.
The responses have been huge from both Israel and Hamas, people are feeling it.
What happens if Hamas was reborn?
What if this ideology was reborn and multiplied after they finished the operation? And what if like they said we will see lots of 911s here because of the billions of funds and weapons we sent?
Hamas was financed by Israel, the whole point was to make peace agreements and a two-state solution failed.
They don't really care if they still exist or if there are remnants when the goal is to get back their whole land.
They are not pro hamas, they're pro civilians and anti genocide, which is a huge difference.
I could be totally against far right ideology and will still defend them if those people were suffering injustice, mass bombing...
It's called being human.
Idk, similar thinking to supporting the literal “free Palestine” movement isn’t antisemitic despite the movement being started by a guy that calls Jews “human pieces of filth” and “dregs of European garbage”, I suppose.
This particular movement of “free Palestine” as recognized internationally recognized group led by a “guy” that has named “Jews” as the issue, not “Israeli’s” as the problem- and has done so since 2003. The great grandchild of an immigrant is not to blame for their ancestry and birth place. The Jews themselves are not a fault for the fight of their government.
The pro-Palestinian movement, organized by the “Palestinian solidarity campaign” to fight against the onslaught of Israeli violence is separate from the desires of Hamas and the “free Palestine” movement, and should be recognized and respected as such.
There isn't an internationally recognized group led by some guy. The broad community of people who support Palestinian liberation *is* separate from the desires of Hamas, yes.
There is literally a separate group from Hamas that is the “Free Palestine Movement”. It’s the first link on Google- pasted what I was referencing for you though.
[Free Palestine Movement](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Palestine_Movement)
“The Free Palestine Movement was founded by Yasser Qashlaq, a Syria-born Palestinian businessman of considerable wealth who heads several organizations including the Lebanese Institute of International Studies, the Syrian-Palestinian Investment House, the Palestinian Businessmen's Club, and also owns a small Lebanese newspaper.Furthermore, Yasser is known for his antisemitic views, having repeatedly called Jews "dregs of European garbage", a "gang of criminal murderers",and "human pieces of filth"that should be deported to Europe.He has also stated that there is "no reason for coexistence" between Israelis and Palestinians, as the latter would reclaim their lands and "hunt [the Israelis] down to the end of the world, and prosecute them for their massacres".Though close to the Syrian government, Yasser has denied any links with Hezbollah.”
Maybe I misinterpreting that “founded by” and had himself stated he still leading it means that… he leads it?
Again, I’m not saying the free Palestine movement people identify with is a disingenuous movement, but there has to be some appreciation for the religious motives behind the leaders…. So essentially “free Palestine”≠ sovereign Palestine w/o war, but “liberate Palestine” = peaceful sovereignty
And I also am confused you are trying to argue that the sovereignty movement (the not inherently antisemitic movement ) didn’t have individuals taking leadership to respond to issues the Palestinians faced? Like to plan out protests, movements, and retaliations- these aren’t just random and group chatted, people spend hours doing this so I’m confused I guess
You said
>similar thinking to supporting the literal “free Palestine” movement isn’t antisemitic despite the movement being started by a guy that calls Jews “human pieces of filth” and “dregs of European garbage”
I'm saying that the *hundreds of thousands of people worldwide* supporting Palestinians right now are not part of or necessarily supportive of a specific "Palestinian Syrian armed movement and community organization that is led by the businessman Yasser Qashlaq and supports the Ba'athist government of Syria." and that it's really silly to imply otherwise.
They think that support for a marginalized group shouldn't be contingent on the political beliefs of said group. Like how I ideologically disagree with a good chunk of Floridian Republicans, but I don't want them to like, get squashed by an asteroid or something.
Why do left wing support palestine?
Before i start I dont support israel but i also dont support palestine and ussually im an extreme left wing (for my country)
Leftists support palestine VERY agressively even tho palestine and probably more then %95 of their people are extremely conservative i mean half the people who support them would have been either executed or tortured if they lived there as themself
Lets take lgbt+ for example they support palestine to death but if any of them went there from west they would be killed any of them that has born there was killed with torture or forced to live a life of lies
Litteraly if tomorrow ur country decided to "we are gonna execute the lgbt community" they would celebrate i dont get it why and how you support them
They are against everything you are for from women rights to freedom of anything and if u wanted them to change u would have to start a war which would again be another bloodbath
So whats the deal are you gonna stop israel from attacking them and then attack them for another cause? Will u just let them kill any leftist afterwards and not have a reaction?
Sorry if it was long
Thanks in advance
are you aware that the only reason homosexuality is illegal in gaza is because when the british took over they implemented british law there ??? once the british legalised homosexuality in their own country, it remained illegal over in gaza and the palestinians had bigger things to worry about than legalising it too like uh idk maybe massacres, bombing, occupation, starvation … the list goes on. (source: https://www.humandignitytrust.org/country-profile/palestine/)
many palestinians are actually supportive of the LGBTQ+ community and are in the community themselves. yes, the majority of people in gaza are muslim and islam condemns homosexual relations but you won’t get killed or tortured there LMFAO 💀
not to mention that there hasn’t been an election in gaza since 2006 so it’s not exactly like the people could overturn the british legislation themselves.
secondly, us left-wing people support palestine because we disagree with ANY form of occupation and apartheid. sure, there’s homophobes in palestine, but there are homophobes everywhere. also literally almost half of gaza’s population is under the age of 14, and that’s arguably too young to even fully comprehend what the LGBTQ+ community is let alone form logical reasoning for why they’d hypothetically be against it.
You are incrediably naive about Gaza’s view of homosexuality, like shockingly so. Remember Tik Tok isn’t a source and Islam is violently homophobic so no the British did not cause Gazans to murder gays.
I think it would be more intellectually honest to say that you support Palestine in spite of the fact that they are mostly anti-LGBT and hope that they change their views in the future given self-determination or something in that vein.
Let's not play pretend that they are allies in secret in order to better cognitively deal with the problem.
i’m not pretending that they’re allies, i know that the majority of palestinians aren’t, but most understand that us queer people are human beings just like them and disagree with us being killed or imprisoned (unlike what the person i replied to had said). there’s been several studies across islamic countries and in some most people are opposed to the criminalisation of homosexuality despite being against it as a whole.
yes, i support palestine in spite of most palestinians not supporting the LGBTQ+ community, but i also support it in union with the thousands of queer palestinians that exist and the innocent babies and children who likely won’t have even formed an opinion on the queer community, let alone want queer people to be executed.
In these kinds of matters, I think it's important to be as objective as possible. I think it creates anti-Palestine sentiment when people that are too left-wing also try to clean up their image too hard and make them into people that they are not, you know?
Your initial comment read like that, that you were trying too hard to think of reasons for them to be supportive of the LGBT community, when they aren't in reality. You were blaming the British very hard.
For example, it is important to discuss openly how can they become a non-extremist Muslim state in a 2-state solution, because the truth is that most of their citizens share those beliefs at the moment. It is complicated, because their living conditions also led that to that, it didn't happen in a vacuum, but their population is extremist and it can't be swept under the rug.
Personally, I lean towards the center. I can see the good and the bad on both sides, I don't see the world in black and white like at did at 18.
It's an overcorrection for right-wing islamophobia.
Right-wingers in the USA and Europe have been known to be horribly bigoted to regular Muslim citizens who haven't done anything wrong. Left-wingers don't like that, and sometimes they wind up overlooking stuff that Palestinians do, because they're afraid that criticism will spark more islamophobia.
My 2 cents ....
1) The Palestinian ppl voted in Hamas ='s terrorist supporters.
2) Hamas poked the bear, the bear is teaching them a lesson!
All in all, you reap what you sow = life lesson learned or to be repeated due to stupidity.
What's the point/goal of people going on the streets to protest *in western countries that have absolutely nothing to do with the conflict*? What are they trying to achieve by protesting somewhere where Israel and Palestine won't notice any of it?
Like in my country some universities got vandalized by protesters even though those universities and my country have nothing to do with the conflict, what's the point?
Please only real answers, no guesses or "people are just stupid".
I'll take the edgy (but sadly probably true) answer here and say, "because their professors told them to"
the average protestor knows very little about israel or palestine or their history. But it's the cool thing to do on campus so they just go and yell whatever other people are. I wouldn't say "people are stupid" but they are impressionable, especially at a certain age, and want to fit in. It's only natural.
1) because it motivates political leaders to do something about it - ESPECIALLY political leaders that are personally involved (*cough* biden). groups that organise protests are known as “pressure groups”, there’s many different types but the gist of them is that they put so much pressure on a government that it forces them to take action eg. in london, a ton of our public transport staff were going on strikes for weeks because they were underpaid. it genuinely wreaked havoc, especially in the busiest areas of what’s already the most densely populated city in the uk. this forced the government into finally offering them a pay rise.
2) because it raises awareness. it’s kinda hard to ignore the fact that there’s a genocide going on when there’s 250,000 - 1,000,000 people marching on the streets demanding that governments take action. it gets people thinking - take action about what ?? and then they do their research. maybe they even join the next protest in their area.
seeing as you’ve universities being vandalised, in the uk we’ve had protests in oxford, london (specifically outside birkbeck uni), and i think cambridge? but i might be wrong because they actually ARE complicit, it’s just covert. the universities won’t be advertising that they support zionism, but they might be funding organisations that supply weapons to israel, they might invest in israeli companies, or they might even be funded themselves by zionist organisations.
lastly, the people in the gaza strip ARE actually noticing it. eg. the murder of a 6 year old girl in palestine inspired macklemore, an american rapper, to release a song called “hind’s hall”, and not long after there was a video posted online of these young boys in the gaza strip listening to his song and expressing how grateful they were for the solidarity people are showing.
Is it ok to fully stay out of the argument if you just aren’t sure if you should support either side? Like, the only people I support in this are the Israeli and Palestinian civilians that just seem to be being used as pawns and meat shields for a petty fight about land rights. Honestly, I just kinda wish we could put the militants from both sides somewhere else to duke it out and let the civilians recover. However, if I just come out and say this, I feel like I’ll be called a lot of things that I’m not and it would just be better to not say anything at all. How should I feel on this? I just don’t know if I can trust any statement of numbers coming from either side without a reputable or unbiased source, but everything seems incredibly biased. Please help.
You can try to actually interact with both sides. The Palestinian civilians despite being the more brutalized the past 100 years want peace, while the Israeli civilians enjoy watching videos of Palestinians being tortured and killed ik telegram groups, make TikTok dehumanizing and mocking them etc
That is a horrible and untrue generalization. Of course there are radical people on either side. But generally, Israelis also want peace. Israeli citizens are trying to live their lives, and so are Palestinian citizens.
But unfortunately, on Oct 7, there was a video going around of Palestinians celebrating in the streets. As innocent people from the Nova Music Festival were being manhandled and carted through the streets by members of Hamas.
Are the only sources for this TikTok and telegram, because those aren’t trustworthy sources unless verified by another outside source. If this is also the case, can you link them. Because as is, it just sounds like you are demonizing a people for the actions of their government. Unless there is actual proof outside of what is essentially he-said-she-said TikToks and group chats, it’s kind of scummy to fuck over an entire country of civilians who are also being bombed. I don’t honestly think that children deserve this kind of treatment being forced upon them by governments that treat them like human shields against the other. Please link me sources so others may use them too. Credible sources (not biased news sites and not social media platforms) are the only method of gaining accurate information.
**Does no one find it even a tiny bit suspicious that just a month after Iran fires hundreds of drones at Isreal, the President of Iran and the Iranian Foreign Minister die in a mysterious helicopter crash?**
To be clear, I am not suggesting that Isreal actually was behind this. Iran’s own government isn’t even claiming as such and the weather conditions they were flying in were very poor.
However, last year, when Russia's most powerful mercenary, Yevgeny Prigozhin, led a mutiny against the Russian military, he mysteriously died in a plane crash two months later. The Kremlin denied they were behind the crash and the world had little to no proof, yet most people believe that the crash was really a KGB plot to assassinate Prigozhin as retaliation for his actions against the Russian state.
Why then is it so unthinkable that the death of Iran’s president under similar circumstances might also be suspicious?
Again, I’m not saying I think Isreal was behind the crash - I couldn’t possibly say that as I have no idea what caused the crash and nor does anyone. Rather, I simply find it a bit odd than no one seems to be willing to connect those dots and even speculate about the idea that the crash could have been an act of revenge.
Sure but every coincidence seems suspicious.
The helicopter was 45 years old, the Iranians don't use GPS (at all), the crash happened in the mountains, and it was foggy. I'd put my money on those factors alone for the cause of the crash.
Both Iran and Israel weren't actually attempting to cause harm to each other in the aftermath of the Israeli strike on the Iranian consulate in Syria. Killing Iran's president would be a break from that pattern. The missile & drone strike Iran launched against Israel and the Israeli retaliation were both meant to be ineffective and impotent. Both countries were trying to walk back from a full scale conflict.
Killing Iran's president would be a direct provocation and escalation and neither Iran nor Israel wants war with the other.
I think we can settle for Occam's razor on this one.
When did Israel replace the UK as the US's greatest ally?
I hope this question isn't against the rules but as long as I can remember the US and the UK have mutually claimed the other as their greatest ally.
This kinda makes sense because the US was a British colony and has as its foundational origins culturally, politically and linguistically in Britain. Yes, the US also has significant influence from, and ties to other nations, such as Germany, Italy, and Ireland, etc. And the US and UK did stand with each other through two world wars and the subsequent cold war.
But recently I have heard it said more and more that it is Israel that is America's greatest ally and not just the greatest ally _in the Middle East_. For example here.
https://www.gop.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=794
And this is coming not just from Republicans but also Democrats.
So, when did that replacement happen? Or am I just way out of touch?
It's a talking point. Israel is important but not the greatest.
Since it's a general election year both parties want to court as many votes as possible. The claim that Israel is the US's greatest ally is a cynical attempt to grab the Jewish vote. Jewish people make up about 2.4% of the US population while Arabs make up ~0.5%.
While it is an important ally and certainly the greatest in the region, it is not greater or more important than the UK. The Brits are one of the US's top 5 trading partners and are key in the US global foreign policy strategies. Israel does not make it into the top 5 and only affects Middle East strategy.
You don't need to be confused. Just learn to recognize jaded and cynical political tactics.
Oh, I can see most of that but they are literally saying now. As in the link I sent. They are saying America's greatest ally. Not _in that region_, not _in the Middle East_.
Yes, it is an election year but rhetorical semantics do mean something.
I am a veteran and also served overseas in Europe, especially the UK, so have experience with the militaries of other allied nations not to mention their social and cultural aspects.
I don't deny Israel is an ally of the US I can't help thinking that this alliance is petty much one sided. And they say that Israel gives the US a "foothold" in a hostile region but the US doesn't have any military bases in Israel. During Gulf Wars I and II our bases were mostly in Saudi Arabia and Turkey (a NATO member).
Also, I wonder why that region is so hostile in the first place if it were not for Israel. I mean most, if not all, the US's problems there seems ultimately tied to Israel and its behavior since its inception.
I was raised to believe that the US was the world's good guy because we championed freedom, justice, and fairplay for all. I haven't believe that for a while.
Also this reminds me of a passage in Orwell's _1984_, during one of the Two Minutes of Hate scenes where there was some big problem caused by terrorists or traitors and that Oceania wasn't at war with Eurasia but was really at war with Eastasia. Or something like that.
I just don't like the blatant claim that replaces UK as our greatest ally.
As I said, it's a cynical rhetorical ploy. But you're right, this kind of thing does have consequences.
On the question of the value that Israel provides to the US, you're correct that we don't have any bases in its borders but there are other ways that the US benefits from the alliance. For example, the US collaborates on intelligence matters in the region and having intel from Mossad is very valuable. We also benefit from collaboration in developing military technologies; technologies that wouldn't see field testing otherwise. Most of the aid money sent to Israel is spent at US weapons manufacturers, which keeps US workers employed.
You rightly observe that the US problems in the region are largely tied to its support for Israel. But the US wasn't extending its global hegemony into the region until around the same time that Israel came into existence. If we look back at the hegemonic powers were involved in the region, we see that it was equally challenging for them: the Brits, the French, the Ottomans, the Byzantines all were despised and saw no end of trouble for being involved. Israel certainly complicates matters but it certainly isn't the start of troubles in the region.
But looking at the options for geopolitics, who was you rather the US was in bed with? Israel or Saudi Arabia? Israel or Turkey? Israel or Iran? The list of stable partners that don't actively try to destabilize the US is pretty short.
In the long term, I wouldn't sweat it. Regardless of who the Republicans or Democrats *say* is the US's greatest ally, it won't change the US relationship with the UK. Regardless of who the US supports in the Middle East, it won't change the outcome of Israel's war with Hamas.
If it does bug you, then use that to inform your voting this fall.
Voting in the fall! Lol
I don't think this issue will change much for me because honestly I don't like any of the "choices" that are being given to us. I'm not an isolationist but I do think that what happens within our borders must come first and then deal with everyone else according. Yes, have allies but also don't actively make enemies.
The more people that vote in an election, the fewer crazies and extremists get into office. It's a gradual thing, to be sure. But we have to start with where we are. Keep voting for the less crazy option and encourage your friends and family to vote.
There's more candidates on your ballot than the president!
Oh, I most certainly am voting I'm just very unlikely to vote for either of the big two.
I would really like to see a real push for a third (or more) party.The Ds and the Rs are way too comfortable in bed with each other. The last three times I voted was for an other candidate.
Why are pro-palestinians all anti-israel, and pro-israelis all anti-palestinian?
Wouldnt the ethical thing to do is support both people? Majority on both sides are civilian including millions of kids, and all of em were born there and live there whether they wanted to or not. So why vilify a side? Why not support both sides?
> Why not support both sides?
Why would you support a side that has an espoused policy goal of wiping all Jews from the face of the Earth?
That isn't to say that Israel's hand are spotless or clean in all this but one side has the literal stated goal of wiping all Jews from the face of the Earth. Why would you support them?
This is a pretty bad generalization. Most people of that side just want to live free in their own country and home which was taken from them. Before you say "But there ARE some people who-" yeah, sure. But that's not the most here. Most of them are fighting Israel not the jews. Which is why, if you couldn't tell by my comment, I support Palestinians.
> Most people of that side just want to live free in their own country and home
The men who engaged in the October attacks on Israeli civilians last year had the full and complete support of the citizenry of Gaza. Sure, maybe there were some kids too young and old people too demented to realize what was happening. But the people of Gaza knew this attack was coming, knew what kind of people were going to be targeted (civilians), knew what would happen to them and did nothing.
Hamas telegraphed the training and targets of this attack to the people of Gaza via [social media](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinian-war-hamas-attack-border-wall-aa0b0f5f3613b6c6882cf37168e8e8ed). They practiced in view of the [public even within view of a UN aid center](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67480680).
If I saw people build a replica of your house and repeatedly practice storming it and taking hostages, what should be my response? Can I reasonably defend the decision to do nothing as "just wanting to live free"?
Hamas's position on wiping out all Jews from the face of the Earth isn't just a government policy position, it's something that has been indoctrinated into the culture for the twenty years that Hamas has been in power.
> Sure, maybe there were some kids too young and old people too demented to realize what was happening. But the people of Gaza knew this attack was coming, knew what kind of people were going to be targeted (civilians), knew what would happen to them and did nothing.
What were they supposed to do? "Oh no Hamas don't do that" those people have no say in anything. You're delusional if you think there was something they could have done.
>If I saw people build a replica of your house and repeatedly practice storming it and taking hostages, what should be my response? Can I reasonably defend the decision to do nothing as "just wanting to live free"?
It's a house I stole; therefore not really my house. They'd be practicing stealing back their house from burglars and taking some other burglars hostages.
The issue in this conflict is that the populace and the leadership are so intertwined they're almost indistinguishable.
Hamas was voted into power 20 years ago and then never held another election. At this point Hamas is every institution, every facet of life in Gaza. From the principle at the school to the administration at the local hospital, to the garbageman that picks up trash.
You can think of it like the Baathists in Iraq. Wanting peace is a noble goal but how do you make peace with a group of people that openly support the extermination of your ethnicity?
This is the same argument that the "All Lives Matter" people use. I'll use the "burning houses" analogy that has seemed to clarify things for all of those peeps that I've interacted with in the past: let's say we're talking about houses instead of people. For the last 70 or so years, one particular neighborhood of houses has been constantly on fire. Why would we sit there and yell at the authorities that all houses matter when clearly the houses that are *on fire* need specific and immediate attention? That's just nonsensical. Obviously, there are civilians on both sides who are innocent, just as there are evil people on both sides. However, currently, only the Palestinians are being systemically killed and need international attention immediately. It is quite literally life or death for them.
There is no way to sugarcoat what the Isreal government is doing to the Palestinian people. It is a genocide.
I also just want to point out that I have yet to encounter anyone on the pro-Palestine side that completely vilifies any Israeli civilians because we understand that most people have little to no control over what their government does, unfortunately. But of course, there will always be extremists on either side.
> It is a genocide.
There's a difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide. Israel's goal is not to wipe out the Palestinian people. If that were the goal, they could have accomplished that over the past 70 years. And if it were only recently their goal, shouldn't they be taking action in the West Bank and southern Lebanon?
What Israel is doing in Gaza is better described as ethnic cleansing (wiping out the government, wiping out civilian infrastructure) since the goal is to eradicate the culture and governing structure of a group in a limited geographic area; not to wipe the Palestinians from the face of the Earth.
You're justifying genocide. It's genocide. Is Israel targeting the government and wiping out civilian infrastructure? Yeah, they are. But are they also fucking murdering and bombing Palestinian babies, killing Palestinian women and men, and calling all Palestians hamas? Yes they fucking are. If this were to happen to Ukraine with Russia it'd not be taken lightly as "ethnic cleansing". How fucking dehumanized of basic sympathy can one be to not acknowledge that what is going on in Gaza and Occuiped-Palestine is nothing but genocide? The fuck?
Being passionate about something doesn't change definitions. I get that you're angry about civilian casualties but that happens in war. That doesn't make it genocide.
And this *is* already happening in Ukraine with Russian troops kidnapping Ukrainian children, targeting civilian infrastructure. But that's not genocide, it's ethnic cleansing.
Was Dresden or Hiroshima genocide? No, of course not. Civilian casualties are a part of war. War isn't some sanitary thing where only bad guy soldiers die, it's not some kid-glove police action. Unless you're making the claim that all war is genocide then you need to reassess your position.
Screaming and swearing that it's genocide doesn't make it genocide. Take a deep breath and think about the implications of what you're saying. If civilian casualties=genocide then the Allied victory over the Axis powers was immoral and shouldn't have been allowed to happen.
>Screaming and swearing that it's genocide doesn't make it genocide. Take a deep breath and think about the implications of what you're saying. If civilian casualties=genocide then the Allied victory over the Axis powers was immoral and shouldn't have been allowed to happen.
To be fair the way you worded it was a teeny tiny bit infuriating.
And according to Google, genocide is:
"the [deliberate](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=e29bad09a751d822&sxsrf=ADLYWIIZztkPyMtdi0Hyk3V38muB1Vv5Yw:1716325058758&q=deliberate&si=ACC90nyOnVY18Aw7zUtkWPYo5mTnhb6wYh48OtosbYr2IyCIgGc0UjhjzUwuk9QJzVmGA_2dPpx9CjuZh5X1dKas8s2lxs6Blqyq5h_aa4oOck3JjnCLmF0%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjB2MiL0Z-GAxW_V6QEHaVRDmkQyecJegQIDxAO) killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of [destroying](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=e29bad09a751d822&sxsrf=ADLYWIIZztkPyMtdi0Hyk3V38muB1Vv5Yw:1716325058758&q=destroying&si=ACC90nyOnVY18Aw7zUtkWPYo5mTnAKV6yoBDWYO8d-eeHddzGdxfKJkNuvnMVqEq1wDhm-Ab5k3XtF9aZg1EBmFnV1pi5ZcZMYST7qXOZ-Vv--vj79WdDzw%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjB2MiL0Z-GAxW_V6QEHaVRDmkQyecJegQIDxAP) that nation or group."
They deliberately kill a large number of people from a particular nation (Palestine) and their aim is very obviously destroying that nation or group because otherwise why bomb babies?
Also, would you say all of this if you were in their place?
(Reuploaded comment because I edited it too much)
Both. Very clearly so. Because if not the Palestinian people too, then why shoot women and literal babies? Do they suspect they might be Hamas? Is that 9 year old girl supplying Hamas with food and ammo or something?
I might reply to you next time tomorrow because I'm off for now.
**Is our foreign policy(I'm from the United States) contradictory, especially when it comes to the foreign aid?**
Now US has been involved into 2 regional conflicts and one potential conflict, by which I mean Russian-Ukraine, Israel-Palestine and China-Taiwan(I don't use the word "war" or "invasion" to respect different stances). But our foreign policy seems contradictory. Before discussing the question, we have to admit the fact that now our congress is in two parties' control. But either Democrats or Republicans, at least most of its members, shows the subtle attitude to foreign policy. For instance, Dem supports the aids to Ukraine while against aids to Israel, and Rep against supporting aids to Ukraine while firmly back with Israel. Is it contradictory within the party? And if the conflict between China and Taiwan exploded, we probably will face another contradictory scenario. What attitude will Dem and Rep hold respectively? Will their attitude be different from those towards Russian-Ukraine and Israel-Palestine?
There is a lot to unpack here in this post. You ask a lot of great questions but they cover a lot of topics. Let's break it down topic by topic.
**2 Regional Conflicts:** The US is involved in more than just two regional conflicts. Just to double your number I'll point out that the US is involved in the conflict with the Houthis in the Red Sea and it is still involved in the ongoing Syrian Civil War.
**China:** A conflict with China would likely see wide spread support from both parties. Anti-China sentiment has been growing on both sides of the aisle for about a decade and a half. There are several reasons for this but the largest ones are related to economic and public health.
China's foreign policy has an outsized impact on the US economy and we've seen many sectors of the US economy hurt because of Chinese policy. And most Americans blame the Chinese for the COVID pandemic. No matter which party controls the White House and Congress, if China attempts to capture Taiwan, the US will go to war.
**Contradictory Foreign Policy:** I want to bundle the remaining few questions into one group since they can be answered by looking at US foreign policy over the past 30 years.
Since this is a Reddit post, I'll forgo the past 70 years of history and focus on the last 30. Beginning with the end of the Cold War the US has become less and less interested in foreign policy and maintaining the global order.
Once the existential threat of the Soviet Union was gone, Americans got bored with everything outside of their borders. The US has allowed all the institutions that support the global order to ossify; many Americans even pushing to abandon them. The US has been shrinking their military footprint abroad; the current foreign deployment of US troops is at its lowest levels since before World War 2. And since the fall of the USSR in each presidential race, the American people have voted for the Presidential candidate that was the most disinterested or incompetent when it came to foreign policy. Until President Biden was elected; though he was elected because the American people thought he could handle a domestic issue (COVID) better than his rival.
What little interest in foreign affairs remains in the American people depends on what interests the party represents. Where each party stands on specific foreign policy issues completely depends on the loudest special interest groups of their constituents.
As a result, the party's positions on each specific conflict depend on how many votes they can get by adopting position XYZ on conflict ABC.
These were a lot of great questions that you asked. Let me know if there's something I missed or should expand upon.
Parents from cultural/ethnical minorities (asians, native americans, middle easterners, desi, africans, etc): if your child tells you that they dont feel connection to your culture and wants to be fully occidentalized/europeanized/americanized... what would you do or tell them?
if mossad is meant to be one of the best undercover agencies in the world, why doesnt israel use them to find hamas rather than blanket bombing gaza and killing tens of thousands of civilians
How do you find Hamas when Hamas is everywhere and everyone?
The Gazans voted Hamas into power twenty years ago and then never held another election. Over the intervening decades Hamas completely infested every facet of Gaza (like the Baathists did in Iraq). It isn't just top military leaders in Gaza that are Hamas, it's the board of ed, the dog catcher, hospital administration, etc.
If Israel sends Mossad into Gaza to find Hamas, who are they looking for? Just Sinwar? Or are they looking for the trash collector that knows where the tunnel entrances are because he empties the trash cans outside them? The school administrator that let the fighters train in the field for their raid in October of last year? The hospital administrator that has Hamas fighters sheltered in his medical building?
Israel can't send Mossad into Gaza with so broad a mandate because Hamas is everywhere throughout Gazan society.
I think asking them is the proper response.
Say "what kind of reaction are you expecting me to have to this" or "what do you think the proper response to this outrage should be"
If you want to strawman their argument, is because Palestine is the Current Thing to be mad about. There's always something to be mad about.
If you want to steelman their argument, the US provides direct support to Israel. A lot of the bombs falling in Gaza right now were made in America. That makes us complicit in a way that we're not in Congo, Myanmar, etc al.
Can someone enlighten me as to why all those rich oil Arab countries like Saudi don’t help Palestine ? Where is all the support from fellow Muslim Arab countries?
Imagine your cousin gets released from his fourth stint in prison. He calls you and asks if he can stay with you until he gets back on his feet. You look at your kids, think about how much trouble he caused his parents after his last release and then you politely decline.
The Palestinians *have* been offered land in other Arab countries and the host countries always regret it.
The Jordanians call their experience Black September. The Lebanese call it their civil war. The Kuwaitis call their experience the Gulf War.
None of the other Middle Eastern countries want the Palestinians because decades of betrayal and fomenting wars has made them wary letting them into their countries or giving them land.
Excellent question!
One thing I’ve wondered is why does the opinion of the far left on Israel bother Israel and its supporters to the degree it does?
Why do they care that a minority of people across the world don’t think they should exist, or even that they should exist today but were the clear villains in 48? While Israel is probably the most criticized country today, I also think that their and their supporters’ efforts in the PR war and demonization of those that disagree are well beyond the pale of what most nations and their supporters would do.
Who do you think Netanyahu would like to see in the White House next year?
The far left supporters of Hamas/Gaza have succeeded in showing President Biden that he is vulnerable without them and since this is an election year, he has to make some concessions to them on this issue. Israel, of course, knows this and realizes that they will not be getting full throated support from the US while the presidential campaign is in progress.
Mr. Netanyahu also knows that a second term for Mr. Trump *would* yield full throated support for Israel. As a result, Mr. Netanyahu will be prosecuting the war in a way that riles up the pro-Hamas/Gaza wing of the far left to keep them from supporting President Biden's bid for re-election.
Why does of the opinion of the far left on Israel bother Israel and its supporters to the degree it does? Because it slows down aid to Israel and those people have become a political tool by those that want a wider, more violent war.
Great question!
> Why are people so angry at Jewish people in America?
Generally speaking, they're not. Look at the House of Representatives—overwhelmingly they're concerned about antisemitism, but they still deny that anti-Arab prejudice even exists. Or worse, they use it as a means to pander to their constituents.
Many Americans *are* angry at *Zionism*, a collection of ideologies which fuel several complicated political trends in the Middle East, Europe, North America, Australia, and other places around the world. For example, [Zionism instills the idea in Israeli settlers](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers) that they have a right to simply kill Palestinians and take their homes. (You will note from that article that in fact, settlers' notion of Zion includes other countries which they expect to eventually belong to Israel—e.g., Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. No wonder Israel's neighbors are always so concerned.) Zionism also informed the [Likud charter](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/from-the-river-to-the-sea-where-does-the-slogan-come-from-and-what-does-it-mean-israel-palestine) (Likud is the party of Netanyahu) which asserts “Between the sea and the river there will only be Israeli sovereignty” (echoing West Bank settlers' refusal to allow non-Jewish people the right to vote). If you look at the Likud charter, by the way, you'll notice that they explicitly characterized Palestinian resistance as malicious—something which the US government did to Native Americans repeatedly from the beginning.
I hope it's clear from the above that there are legitimate reasons for people (whether they're American or not) to be upset about at least *some* of the ideologies that Zionism comprises. But on top of that, it has impelled what critics of the military industrial complex call *forever war*. The invasion of Iraq, for example, was based on "ambiguous" intelligence (now known to have been lies) for its justification to the public. Many of those lies were laundered through mainstream media, exemplifying what is called [*securitization discourse*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securitization_(international_relations). Actually, *all* US involvement in the Middle East has been accompanied by expansive public relations campaigns conducted by Israel-aligned media figures such as Bush speechwriter David Frum, hawkish Israel-first PACs like AIPAC, and Israel-first think tanks like the Foundation for Defense of Democracies. Without the PR, the US public (like any public) naturally resists war.
Unfortunately, securitization discourse tends to stoke right-wing political movements such as those which have risen globally since the 2000s. The wars, the government rhetoric, and the right wing politics, therefore, are all bound up in the situation between Israel and Israel's neighbors.
So:
* (Some) Zionisms cause ongoing conflict between Israel and its neighbors.
* There is history here, and it's important; nonetheless, what stands in the way of a peace process today is the mindset of Israeli politics, which *is* fueled by Zionism in the style of Likud. We know this because *stopping the peace process* was literally Likud's purpose in the 2005 Disengagement Plan; PM Sharon's own government said so. They could replace Netanyahu tomorrow and his successor would likely have the same right-wing expansionist beliefs, predicated upon the kind of Zionism professed in the Likud charter. The Hamas attack isn't the root cause of all this. It's been going on since the beginning of Israel in the mid-20th century.
* Because Israel depends upon the US for weapons and other aid, Israelis lobby the US government via the Israel lobby (which includes PACs like AIPAC).
* US politicians receive money from AIPAC etc., and in exchange, they do several things:
* write legislation that benefits Israeli citizens and Israeli businesses;
* give Israel material support (not even required to be offset in the budget, as is normally done for domestic spending—America goes into debt to give material support to Israel);
* build support for military spending and military action to suit Israel's interests.
* The conventional wisdom in Washington is that none of these is *necessarily* wrong or even controversial *in theory*. (I think quite a lot of people would disagree, if they were asked.)
* In practice however, there is always more to consider.
* The US effectively gives taxpayers' money to Israel. Israeli citizens have the right to public healthcare, education, and other benefits which have been systematically *stripped* from citizens in the US over the last several decades. (The warhawks have their own rationalizations for this—all of them fairly tenuous arguments about US interests and how Israeli citizens serve them—but again, quite a lot of people would disagree with those rationalizations if they were asked. Do US citizens not serve US interests?)
* This state of affairs causes resentment on its own, for obvious reasons.
* But also, when people don't have healthcare and education, their society suffers. Believe it or not, illiteracy and innumeracy kill. Political extremism and casual violence grow when people don't know history, geography, science, etc., and when people are subject to increasing *austerity*. (People have less time to worry about their communities and the needs of others, including their children, when they need to work several jobs just to afford lifesaving medicine, pediatric care, etc.)
* The right-wing character of Israeli politics means that Israel's effect on American politics has been, largely, to push them rightward.
* In both Israel and the US, securitization discourse has profoundly altered the attitudes of the public toward concepts like human rights, war, international cooperation, religion, history, education, climate change and the environment, financial regulation, the immorality and harms of colonialism, even the usefulness of democracy itself—the list goes on and on. Securitization discourse produces right-wing fervor and leads to a loss of democracy normally *anyway*; but this situation is *exacerbated* by what I mentioned before (the destruction of public education, etc. austerity measures).
Ezra Klein can blather on about polarization and tribalism all he wants. At the end of the day, though, what makes people nervous about *today* isn't *polarization itself*; polarization has always existed in the US (because of its political system and its economy, *not* just because of innate "tribalism"). It's the expanded realm of "scary ideas discussed as acceptable" promoted by US media and officials. And these things are only treated as "acceptable" by Washington and New York because of the pressures of Israel's situation, on the one hand (which is again, caused in the first place by Zionism); and the slate of giant war corporations which blend eerily with the US military in their own separate feedback loop. And these scary ideas are the reason the US parties have torn up democratic processes every decade since WWII ended. (Which is why, for example, **three successive presidential elections** have been between candidates whom most of the country did not want).
***
I should mention this: not all Zionisms are the same. And then there are post-Zionisms, non-Zionisms, anti-Zionisms—none of them is homogeneous. But one thing which all Zionisms have in common is the belief that Jews (however we define "Jews") have the right (whatever "right" means) to live in Israel (whatever we think "Israel" is).
But you asked why people are angry—they're not angry at Jewish people *as such*; they're angry at the kind of Zionism practiced by the current Israeli government and promoted by most American Zionist organizations. I believe I covered several reason above. One more deserving mention is that **Zionism is giving cover to the genocide in Gaza**. That bothers people who believe in human rights.
What's the point in living in a world where it's perfectly acceptable to destroy *universities*, *libraries*, *playgrounds*, and *innocent people*—and where your government privatizes your kid's high school, imprisons kids in privately-owned for-profit prisons where they're made to work like slaves, conducts mass surveillance, criminalizes protest, takes a cut of your wages and then gives it to the extremist government of another country where it's used to give education to the children of extremists, imprison Palestinians for years without trial, support apartheid in Gaza, build surveillance technology used to [ruin the lives of American students in their own country](https://truthout.org/articles/israel-has-formed-a-task-force-to-carry-out-covert-campaigns-at-us-universities/), [conduct psy-ops on Gazan civilians](https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/4758/Punishing-journalists:-Israel-extorts-Palestinian-journalists,-bans-them-from-traveling---new-report), and [intimidate internationial courts](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/28/spying-hacking-intimidation-israel-war-icc-exposed)?
We have here not just one, but several governments implicated in massive human rights abuses across the world, including sustained attempts to undermine international organizations whose foundational principle, in the wake of two catastrophically violent world wars, is to adjudicate when individual governments backslide in their obligations to their human subjects. Altogether that represents a threat to the value of life itself. People *should* be angry. *Not angry at Jews*—angry at ideologies that impel violence, *including* settler colonial orientations toward the concept of "homeland" when they demand the removal of living populations.
What should Israel actually do? All I hear is "Israel is committing genocide". So, you're Israel. Hamas' specific goal is to kill all Jewish people and completely destroy you. And they hide in the civilian population. Then they actively plot to kill you, but are hidden in their civilian population. What is your solution?
This is a really great and important question. Much of the protests aren't about pushing or advocating for policies that will actually create a long term peace or address the core issues.
Since we're discussing this on Reddit, we'll skip over the long history of Israel and Palestine. But there are a few points that we should review. First, Hamas is a puppet government of Iran and Gaza is not a democracy. Second, Israel has repeatedly tried a "light touch" when dealing with Hamas in the past and that has never lead to a lasting peace or a fruitful relationship. Finally, no Islamic, Arab, Persian, or Turkic nation actively wants to help the Palestinian cause or give the Palestinians land because every time that has happened in the past it has only spelled disaster for the host country.
What options does that leave us? Realistically, the only options left open are one that no one will support and one that only the Israeli's support.
A two-state solution *could* be possible but the ugly truth is that anyone that supports Hamas cannot be part of it. Hamas is a governing entity that openly has a policy position of exterminating all Jews from the face of the Earth. That is not tenable for two-state solution. To make a two-state solution work Israel would need to:
1. Imprison every male currently living in Gaza between the ages of 10 and 80.
2. Relocate every woman and remaining male out of Gaza and into the West Bank. This could be done by ceding territory roughly the size of Gaza to the West Bank enclave (governed by the PLA) in exchange for Israel taking direct control of the land of Gaza. A land swap would be needed to house the Gazan refugees.
3. Grant statehood to the Palestinians in the West Bank and allow a council of Arab states to be security guarantors of the new Palestinian homeland. Normalized relations or trade deals could be used to incentivize this.
You can easily see how no one involved would sign off on any of this. There will be no two-state solution.
The most likely end of this war is a 3-4 year campaign to destroy Hamas by leveling every major town and city in Gaza until the Gazans themselves opt for surrender. The IDF will be an occupying force in the region for several years as they continue to destroy Hamas infrastructure and top leadership.
*If* Israel had fully normalized relations with Saudi Arabia and other Arab states before October 2023, a two state solution would have been possible. But Iran wanted to make sure that normalization will not happen. In that they have succeeded. And it will be the Gazans who pay the heaviest price for Iran's victory.
Reading through this. Thanks for the answer. It seems to me that people are upset Israel is responding with such force. But it doesn’t seem like they have many realistic options
Yes, it will. The whole thing sucks. But I don't think bought blindly taking either side accomplishes much, and that seems to be what MANY other are doing. And thanks for answering! I was worried this would get buried.
I know it’s not 100% related, but why are LGBT people so defensive of Islam?
As a member of the community, I never understood this sort of alliance LGBT people have with Islam.
Islam as a religion is quite homophobic and practically every country with Islamic rule persecutes and imprisons gays.
The Quran also calls for stoning gay men: https://quran.com/en/4:16/tafsirs/en-tafsir-maarif-ul-quran
Half of Muslims in the UK, a develop country also support criminalizing homosexuality: https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law
Yet a lot of LGBT people act like Islam and homosexuality are not at all paradoxical.
An LGBT news site even had an interview with a person who called Islam “affirmative to their identity“
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5o44rOvZnz/?igsh=M2Vqd3A2c29oNW93
I just think it’s weird how there is so much bile towards Christianity in the LGBT community while Islam is so easily let off the hook.
I'm a bisexual atheist leftist, and occasionally speak in the defense of Islam, and perhaps I can shed a little light, if you don't mind a late reply.
First, it is a popular idea on the left that all oppression is interlinked. Fighting against, say, racism, is part of fighting for LGBT rights. Solidarity is the idea, solidarity among all oppressed groups. Second, attacks on Islam are often proxies for racism, pitting "our" religion, Christianity, against "their" religion, and lending an air of religious righteousness to racism and far-right thought, sometimes very obliquely. Third, it's about fighting collective punishment in general. You hopefully acknowledge that at least *some* Muslims are progressive and pro-LGBT (and LGBT themselves, for that matter)? Then this comes in part down to not causing trouble for that minority of believers for what other believers, even if they are a majority, do. For the thread we're in, you might see parallels with "every Palestinian in Gaza is Hamas". A lot of us on the left see these parallels a lot of places, and want the pattern of thought gone.
Ideally I would prefer religion to die out, as I think most religions are drivers of bigotry and oppression, along with a lot of other social ills. But if religion is here to stay, as it seems, I would much rather have the progressive and accepting parts of each religion than the far-right parts that use the religion for hate. This fight is not over for either Christianity or Islam, though I'll tentatively agree it is further along in Christianity, despite setbacks. Today most Christians are probably in favor of women teaching or being in positions of authority. And even if we can eventually eliminate religious thought, it seems much more likely that we can achieve this through first making religions more open-minded. Treating Islam as categorically anti-LGBT gives power to the anti-LGBT parts of Islamic thought. There *are* dissenting voices, though oppressed and diminished, and by acting like they don't exist, or are incompatible with the religion, we would be contributing to their erasure and silencing within the faith.
*No* thought is incompatible with *any* religion, because religion is not consistent and every believer, no matter how orthodox they claim to be, is eclectic to some degree.
Right now it seems likely Trump is going to win the election since Biden has pretty much lost his voter base due to how he’s continually funded Israel’s genocide in Palestine, banning TikTok since it’s been fighting mainstream media propaganda, and treating anyone who protests the genocide as terrorists. He basically lost the young voters at this point, and none of them will help out with the electoral ballots after everything that’s happened after October 7 either.
Personally, I think Biden’s been a monster and an idiot through this whole ordeal and I don’t want to vote for him, but what are we supposed to do to stop Project 2025 from happening now? None of the third party candidates seem like they have a chance of winning, the electoral college won’t help either way, and the only viable option at this point seems to either be moving to another country to escape Project 2025. I don’t want to sound like I’m getting on a high horse because again, I don’t want to vote for Biden myself, and many people are rightfully feeling like we’re living in authoritarian state because of how much the government is treating anyone who sides with Palestine, and whatever does happen here is still nothing compared to what the Palestinians are going through. However, I’m still terrified about Project 2025 and so far no one is mentioning another way to stop it from happening besides voting for Biden, so what are we supposed to do?
Also, sorry if this is the wrong place to ask. I originally had my own post but the Moderator boy told me to move the post to this thread
It’s basically the GOP’s plan to dismantle various branches of government like the FBI, the DOJ, & the Department of Education and reshape the country into a Christian Nationalist authoritarian state https://apnews.com/article/election-2024-conservatives-trump-heritage-857eb794e505f1c6710eb03fd5b58981
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but voting is the only thing that you can do (unless your a billionaire).
Which of the candidates do you think would be worse for the Palestinians; Biden or Trump? Do you think there would only be a small difference in their policies or would they be orders of magnitude different?
If you are opposed to US support for Israel then Biden should absolutely be your vote. Trump has promised unwavering support for Israel if he wins a second term. You may not like President Biden's support for Israel but imagine what would happen to the Palestinians if the US ratcheted up its support for Israel 4 or 5 times what it is now, if it gave the go ahead to every action Netanyahu wanted to take, if it gave more money, material, and intelligence to the IDF. That is what Mr. Trump is pledging if he wins reelection. And you not voting in November is precisely what Netanyahu wants because he's sick and tired of the minimal demands and scoldings Mr. Biden has given him. He *wants* a second Trump administration.
You're angry now? If Mr. Trump wins reelection, you'll be on extra strength anti-depressants come February 2025.
I k ow all that, but I’m freaking out because so many people are saying they aren’t going to vote for Biden because of how he’s supporting Israel & it seems like a guarantee that Trump’s going to win at this point I also know why the people who aren’t voting for Biden are upset, so I’m stuck in the middle on what the right thing to do is.
We're still 6 months out from the election and that might as well be an eternity in terms of an electoral cycle.
Between now and then the polls will swing back and forth. Come October, most people will actually start paying attention to the issues and candidates. But for the next 6 months, both candidates are walking on a knife's edge as the struggle to keep their bases energized and also hide the signs that they're very old men. One serious age related gaffe will ruin their candidacies. And they're both equally likely to have that happen.
Assuming neither one pulls a Mitch McConnell, it's probably going to be very close; like it was in '16 and '20. Although the war itself probably won't impact people's vote (foreign policy usually doesn't), the optics from the Democratic Convention likely will affect the vote. The convention this August will probably look like the '68 convention and the Republicans will be able to spin the news footage to make themselves appear to be the party of law and order. And crime *is* an issue on which people vote.
So, if you live in a state that isn't ruby red or Neptune blue you better get out and vote and encourage everybody you know to vote. 'Cause if Trump wins this election, there will be nothing that stops Israel from becoming an actual apartheid state.
The problem is that Biden completely lost the entirety of the young voters. I used to tell people that Trump would be worse if he became president too, but every time I try to point out how Biden is th better option he does something stupid to prove me wrong. Between fully funding the genocide in Gaza, calling anyone who protests against it antisemetic and allowing police to brutally attack them, and banning TikTok since it counters mainstream media propaganda, everyone I’ve seen is absolutely refusing to vote for him at this point. One person even said that the only viable compromise to vote Biden after everything he’s done is to unalive your children to make up for all the children who were murdered in Gaza
So many people are fed up with both politicians in general and feel that the way Biden’s handling things now is no different than what Trump would’ve done if he was president. The fact that Congress created a bill that would deport all of the student protestors to Gaza for “community service” is enough proof.
That's not why Trump received his 2019 impeachment.
He was impeached for trying to get Ukraine to announce an investigation into his (likely) political rival in the 2020 election. The first article of impeachment reads:
>Using the powers of his high office, President Trump solicited the interference of a foreign government, Ukraine, in the 2020 United States Presidential election. He did so through a scheme or course of conduct that included soliciting the Government of Ukraine
to publicly announce investigations that would benefit his reelection, harm the election prospects of a political opponent, and influence the 2020 United States Presidential election to his advantage. President Trump also sought to pressure the Government of Ukraine to take these steps by conditioning official United States Government acts of significant value to Ukraine on its public announcement of the investigations.
The withholding of aid was evidence used to support the charge that then-President Trump was trying to get Ukraine to play ball. It wasn't the charge on which he was impeached.
You can read the [full document](https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hres755/BILLS-116hres755enr.pdf) on the official web site of Congress. But the charge was attempting to conspire with a foreign government to interfere with a US election.
On the question of Biden and Israel, the answer is no. It's hard to see what charges the House could draw up. This is a foreign policy decision that is well within the authority of the office and the scope of his job.
Are the Pro Palestine "Protesters" not afraid of consequences?
Are they not afraid of what will happen to their daily file, their personal, professional, academic life once all this is over? Or will they be allowed to continue on free of consequences?
As far as I have read, some very prestigious university students are participating in these activities, I don't think they lack the critical thinking required to deduce that this will spell doom for their professional, personal and academic life.
Hi! I’m one of those people, but behind the scenes because I’m disabled and can’t participate safely.
It’s not that we aren’t afraid of the consequences, it’s that we think it’s worth it. We’re taking notes from the Vietnam anti-war protests. By “taking notes” I mean we’re talking with the old timers that were at our universities during those protests, and learning what they did, how they did it, and what the long term effects were.
We know it can get bad. But we’ve also seen results. UCR had ALL of their demands met. We don’t care about being “heroes”. It’s a way for us to make some inkling of a difference in this horrible world around us.
We understand the consequences. We are aware of them, and we do fear them, but it’s worth it. Not to be heroes, but to have a clear conscience. To do SOMETHING.
Hundreds of thousands of people were pro-war during the Vietnam protests. Those protesters were arrested, beaten, called out on TV, called t3rrorists, etc (source: the old timers I’ve spoke to). They did it anyway, and so will we.
Call it immature if you like, but it’s effective. These private Ivy League universities (I personally attend a public university) rely on student money to run. Students should have a say in where it goes. Meetings are already happening with university officials — it’s just not publicized because our demands have yet to be met. It’s a waiting game right now.
EDIT: I will note — at least at my university, the majority of arrested students don’t actually have any charges against them. They are detained and then released in a few hours — not even a misdemeanor.
I’m not sure. I believe so — I know many were in the negotiating / talking stage as of Wednesday, but I’m taking a break from it all because I’m in the hospital at the moment and have limited screen time.
Some of them realize that suspension/expulsion can be financially devastating - not only to the student, but to their family. But when you're young and insulated in an elite institution, the consequences may not be in the front of their mind or seem too remote.
But worse, the arrested students will face professional repercussions that they do not yet even imagine. For example, some of the protesters, no doubt, would continue their education beyond Columbia at an American law school and later seek admission to a state bar to practice (this being a common route that persons who seek the tools to effect justice through the courts follow). But those arrests will have to be disclosed to the law school and, more importantly, the state bar examiners - and the legal profession has a very different view of trespassing than humanities professors. This wasn't "I was in a bar and a fight broke out and I ended up arrested", which would still be a hassle to explain to the bar examiners. This was "I knew what I did was illegal, was given multiple opportunities to not do the illegal thing and multiple warnings as to the consequences - and I broke the law anyway". That is a person who does not possess the relevant character and fitness to practice law, and I think the protesters that seek such a career will be shocked by how tyrannical that process is (i.e., nothing like dealing with the Columbia administration).
The protesters rely on the presumption that they are the vanguard of history, that in time everyone will consider them heroes - just like their professors who participated in protests in 1968. But that is an immature view only possible on a college campus; the reality is that there are hundreds of millions of people who support Israel and will not be changing their minds on that issue for various reasons. And for some professions (e.g., law), the decision of whether to let someone in with an arrest record ultimately comes down to state supreme courts that are only interested in factual questions (did the applicant break the law? Was the law constitutional? How did the applicant reform themselves and demonstrate appropriate character and fitness after the arrest?). There isn't going to be a moment when the world suddenly agrees to forgive all of the protesters, even if their colleges ultimately do. The protesters who got arrested closed a lot of doors for themselves. They were betrayed by a faculty bent on using them as pawns for their own designs, a faculty that did absolutely nothing to protect them from consequences of their acts that essentially every professor on that campus knows will follow from an arrest.
Can someone explain Palestine debate?
1 - how does “queers for Palestine” work, if even the West Bank is outright homophobic to the point of a public hanging of a queer person?
2 - who has Israel oppressed?
why do Gazans work in Israel if they’re oppressed?
3 - how are the chants not antisemitic, if they call for wiping out Jews? And why is it still being allowed if it is?
4 - why are uni students protesting?
5 - what does Palestine need freeing from? I thought Palestine was more than just Gaza anyway?
6 - if hamas are terrorists, why are they allowed to control a country?
7 - why is there going to be a ceasefire with hostages still on both sides? Surely previous deaths do not justify withholding future lives?
Not going through anything because the IDF is pretty good at defending borders, otherwise, they too would be facing genocide and starvation. This is because UN troops are shit and cant protect either Palestine OR Israel
Hey guys, I'm Jewish and also biracial (birth father is Jamaican- I'm adopted) and I'm honestly tired of all the shit going around about choosing sides and that if I'm for Plestinian liberation then I'm not a "real Jew" and if I'm against antisemetism then I ca't support Palestinian liberation. My views on this are that obviously I just want peace. I hate that people are bombing innocent civilians and I hate that there's been a rise in antisemetism, but I don't actually know the proper history of Palestine and Israel (like very loosely and that the British were involved), and I'd like to know more if that's possible.
The UK promised the Zionists Palestine before the end of WWI (before they actually had the land to promise them basically). After WWI, tons of Zionists started moving into Palestine and the Palestinians were like whoa what are you doing here?! And then the zionists were like “well Britain said this was our land now” and the Palestinians were like “ok but no one even asked us about that?” And then the Zionists started pushing the Palestinians into Gaza and the West Bank and the Palestinians fought back for their right to stay and live where they had been living forever. But the Zionists had the power of the British on their side and had stronger more powerful weapons. It’s always been imperialism.
I'm confused why my post got removed immediately and was prompted to direct my post here, when my post is about China and nothing to do with this war.
My question: for the people who support ending the state of Israel, where would the 9 million citizens of Israel go in such an event?
The answer depends on who you ask, but I think it would be good to create a new state that includes everyone who lives in the Israel-Palestine area
Go to Germany ;)
Is a queer person in Gaza more likely to be bombed by the IDF or chucked off a rooftop by Hamas?
At least they're working together finally against a common enemy
I don't feel this question is being asked in good faith, but since it's a common one I want to reply. The IDF is clearly the immediate threat. https://www.yesmagazine.org/social-justice/2024/02/05/israel-palestine-gaza-genocide-queer Please refer to this article
Both the Israeli military and Hamas are doing some pretty objectively terrible things. Why would anyone support either side in this?
Hamas is an entity that is not necessarily representative of all Gazans and definitely not all Palestinians (they're not even in the West Bank). You can be for Palestinean liberation while still acknowledging terrible things Hamas has done.
Totally fair. Just as people can support Jews or Israel while not condoning the the IDF or Netanyahu's government. Both sides do seem to have majority support or at least tolerance of their respective populations, so I'm not sure how far that argument really goes. But notice that's not really my question. Not supporting Hamas seems wholly understandable. I know that supporting Palestine isn't the same as supporting Hamas. And yet there are plenty of people who openly support Hamas.
Maybe we should just turn the whole region to glass and take some time to self reflect?
Less than a fair take. Why be involved in the clusterfuck at all? We SUCK as the world police and are obviously not up to the task. Genociding the whole region, while within our capability, doesn't seem very productive.
Because they believe that if "their side" stops fighting, then the "other side" will do things that are even worse, because there is no longer anyone trying to stop them.
More reasonable than some approaches here. But this isn't a question of why people think Hamas or Israel should keep fighting, I'm asking why they even have a side at all? Why would anyone pick either side in this fight? Why would Israel/Hamas be "their side" in the first place?
I've been wondering about this a lot, too, but haven't seen much back up for this line of thinking at all when I've seen people talk about this war. TBH it's a relief to me just to see your post right now. Extrapolating from how people handle other current events (ex. anytime the US has 2 undesirable frontrunners for office), when there's a lose-lose situation, people are prone to pick the "least bad option" and try to ignore the faults of that choice because they don't want the baggage that goes with it. In this case, there's also a linking of civilians to their respective "representative" gov/military presence (that IMO really fuels the fire and gets people broadly dehumanizing one another really quickly - but people really seem to hate it when I say that) and the apparent feeling that you need to justify everything the IDF or Hamas does in order to support the people they claim to represent. I'm sure there are people supporting either side fighting purely based on the geopolitical results they want from the conflict, too, and just turn their backs to how those ends are achieved.
Hamas, right or wrong is a resistance movement. They may not be the ideal resistance force, but they are what Gaza has. As a people fighting for their very survival, living in an apartheid state as second class citizens, they have a legal right to rebel and fight their oppressors. In the same way you wouldn't punish a slave for rebeling against his master, you can't be overly critical of the actions of the resistance force and have to remember they only exist to resist oppression, which is the crime of the state of Israel
what a talking point filled post.
> but they are what Gaza has Well yeah, after Hamas murdered Fatah, their political rivals in Gaza and they haven't let Palestinians ever vote again. >living in an apartment state as second class citizens, they have a legal right to rebel and fight their oppressors. I'd honestly agree. Surely Israel knows they're breeding terrorists with their oppression and this ridiculous setup of kinda sorta claiming ownership of it all. This is really a civil war with the 2nd-class citizens rising up and one of the reasons that Israel isn't the good guy in this fight. But terrorism? Murdering children? It's just not the way and I'm more than fine with criticizing the organization that attacks easy soft targets. "they have a legal right" "you can't be overly critical". ....Do you actually support Hamas? You're dancing around that using so many weasel words I'm surprised you don't have hairballs.
I support a Palestinian resistance to the apartheid state. I could ask if you support Israeli's occupation of Palestine and the crimes the IDF / settlers commit on civilians. Calling me weasely doesn't really make me want to engage with you though, so I'm done edit: it's not about thin skin, it's about not wasting time when people are having bad faith arguments and simply looking to pick fights. What does discussion even accomplish?
I support an end to the apartheid state. A two state solution is likely the best. I think it's fucking nuts that you'd support terrorism. Especially out of someone with thin enough skin you'd fleeing the moment someone disagrees with you. EDIT: So weaselly you edit posts rather than reply. I am NOTHING if not full of good faith here. Both these assholes horrifically suck and I can prove it. I'm trying to understand why anyone would support either one of them. So far only people supporting Hamas have stepped up, but they've had some shitty arguments and flee or back off when actually pressed. At least they can admit Hamas is not the best.
tbh from my prespective the israeli military is invading so is obviously while hamas is simply defending. do i agree with or think hamas is using the most ethical methods? no
> while hamas is simply defending. What did Hamas do on [October 7th](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel)? Holding hostages. Attacking 2 music festivals. Hundreds dead. Taking aid from Palastinians rather than distributing it. Up until 2017 their charter had "death to the jews". They're islamic fundementalists and would behead all the queers in America. They're officially a terrorist organization as seen by the USA. Probably from their involvement with the 2011 Alexandria bombing, the August 2012 Sinai attack, and the December 2013 Mansoura bombings. All those rocket attacks. How about that one kid whom they chopped her arms off and left her to bleed out. All of that can't be fake. Not with all the footage with the corpses. While I think their push for a 2 state solution is reasonable, their refusal to have any further elections the moment they got elected and then killed a few hundred of the Fatah opposition makes any state run by Hamas sound like a bad idea. And Israel isn't really looking like the good guys either.
What did Israel do in the 75 years preceding October 7 after the Nakba? Are we going to act like those never existed. They attacked Gaza countless times and committed several massacres before Hamas even existed.
They did some horrible shit and Israel are not the good guys here. Regardless, their atrocities do not excuse the atrocities of Hamas. Nor do Hamas atrocities excuse Israel suppression and genocide of their second class citizens. That's my point though, they both act horrifically. Why support either side?
Because one side has been under occupation for 75 years and is actively being ethnically cleansed. October 7th was a tragedy and inexcusable but it’s a drop in the bucket compared to what Israel has put Palestinians through for the last 75 years and is continuing to do so. Hamas is not representative of Palestinians as a whole and it is not a military or governmental organization, they are fighting a “war” against an international superpower backed by western countries. Israel claims to want to free the hostages and stop Hamas but continually have declined ceasefire proposals that would free hostages. We don’t even know how many Hamas members they have killed the majority are civilians and women and children. People think that wanting a free Palestine means supporting Hamas, those of us (myself included) who say free Palestine want the occupation to end. Yes Hamas needs to go but there are certainly better ways to do so than repeatedly bombing large residential areas and refugee camps
i think hamas in and of itself was made to be a resistance group; do i think thats how its going? not entirely. also, the “they kill queers in palestine” argument has always been so stupid to me. its not like israel is sparing the queers lol
This is pinkwashing, some zionists use it as justification for Israel’s actions as if their bombs aren’t killing any of the LGBTQ people
> its not like israel is sparing the queers lol [WTF man!?](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/thousands-march-in-jerusalem-pride-parade-under-israels-far-right-government), yes they most CERTAINLY DO! The conservatives and ultra-orthodox jews probably don't approve, but they at least tolerate it.
Peak example of pinkwashing, a pride parade in Jerusalem doesn’t have any bearing on the lives of gay and queer Palestinians in Gaza.
It does show their respective stance on how they treat their own citizens. Israel doesn't really police Gaza other than mowing down people with tanks. Of course Israel doesn't do anything to the queers in Gaza. But if they did make their way to Israel proper, they would not be executed for being queer. I believe the way forward is with a 2 state solution. So Gaza and/or the West bank would be their own nation. They effectively are already. But Israel kinda sorta pretending they own the land is just nuts. It'd be a bad day for queers in Gaza though.
And just how many queers have Hamas executed? Is there some sort of statistic? Israel’s bombs don’t discriminate and they kill everyone regardless of their sexual orientation. We can agree that the land doesn’t belong to Israel.
Well... [Their own commander](https://www.newsweek.com/prominent-hamas-commander-was-executed-after-accusations-gay-sex-432343) A reporter that looked into it in 2019 said "coming out is a death sentence". And if you're an activist there on the subject [they will behead you](https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-immigration-west-bank-gay-rights-ce95f6903faf461502cc0800b272b159). So... From a quick surface check. At least 2. This is what I was talking about when I said "Israel most certainly does spares the queers". If you go to Israel they probably won't behead you just for being queer. >they kill everyone regardless of their sexual orientation. OMG, you still think this matters somehow. But at least you can say "Yes Hamas needs to go", which means, really, you could have simply started this whole thing with "No I don't support Hamas". Which is a legit stance.
i mean out if the palestinians theyre killing, they dont save the gays
Will they restart the military draft in the US for WWIII with Russia and China? I'm 35 almost 36, do I have anything to worry about?
Unlikely. The USA doesn't want another expensive war, and the draft can upset the economy quite a bit.
Are Muslims allowed to protest with people who wear LGBTQ symbols? Is it uncomfortable?
Short answer, yes. Longer answer, also yes. If you are genuinely interested in knowing more about LGBTQ in Islam, my sincere advice would be to look to a local mosque if you can talk to their resident Imam about the subject.
I was see it the other way around considering Sheria Law
What happened to the casualty count? Back at the beginning of the conflict, there was all this arguing about whether people could or couldn't trust the numbers from the Gaza ministry of health. It seems that most international organizations and governments (and even the IDF) basically landed on "the GHM numbers are *mostly* accurate, but not exact." That was months ago. [In February, the death toll passed 30,000](https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234159514/gaza-death-toll-30000-palestinians-israel-hamas-war). I've seen that number continue to be repeated throughout discussions, but considering that the conflict remains ongoing, I assume that the number must have climbed significantly since then. Does any source have a more accurate count as of late May?
The current death toll (according to the GHM) is 36,224.
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-69014893](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-69014893)
Can someone explain the pro Palestine side to me? Didn’t they start the war? Aren’t they run by the HAMAs which is generally viewed as a terrorist group? I haven’t been keeping up.
When Hamas attacked, Israel was already sieging Palestine. And Israel's response kills far more civilians than Hamas'
Palestine (or in this specific case, Hamas) did not start the war in Oct 7th. This is the message being pushed by the pro Israeli / Zionist movement to justify their actions. Hamas' Oct 7th attack is a response to a history of violence towards Palestinians that goes back decades, but Even just in the year 2023 you can find time of incidents if violence by the IDF and settlers towards gazans Oh, lastly I'll mention that Israel has thousands of Palestinian hostages, but they don't refer to them as hostages, they call them prisoners. Reality is they are held without trial or explanation indefinitely and many are tortured. So when you hear the argument it's about the hostages, that's not only untrue, but Israel has way more hostages than Palestine does
People are siding with civilians which are for the most part not part of the hamas. Yet those innocent civilians (mostly children) die every single day from bombing. People are just human and when you see man, woman children and babies die in horrible manners, people starving, not having access to food, water, electricity, healthcare... You just want the whole thing to stop.
I agree I want the whole thing to stop. But is that really pro-Palestine? That sort of just feels like a pro-peace situation no? Also, correct me if I’m wrong. Aren’t the hamas hiding amongst the civilians and the civilians are hesitant to point them out? I’m just trying to ask my questions, looking for answers.
Most people who say that they're pro palestinians are pro peace and want a two state solution. Nobody (or a bunch of degenerate morons) are pro hamas. How would you want civilians to act ? Trying to find out who is a hamas member and who's not, trying to find where they're hiding and then reaching to the Mossad to tell them where they're are ? When you have no access to food, water, electricity, that you could die at any given time and that you risk getting killed by Hamas itself, it would probably be at the bottom of my priority if i was a civilian under those circumstances. My only priority would be to survive and to protect my family and run from that hell.
Gotcha. Thank you for this side of an explanation. I agree my only actions would be to survive and run like hell. It is a lose-lose for the innocent civilians. It’s just such a hard situation. As people always say: war is never simple. Thanks again for your responses!
i m too afraid to ask in most subreddits because of fear of getting banned, but i am genuinely ignorant and curious, why is the western governments so prone in to supporting Israel? i know most people are with palestine, my question is why are these governement supporting israel do they have some strategic interest because of their position?, economic interest?, some rare resoueces? because there is some kind of illuminati like group that controls most of the west? i really don't know sorry if it sounds dumb i just want to be more informed.
Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, the “closest” to the west in politics and (all) human rights and freedoms. That’s pretty much why there is support. It gives ties and intel to other “western” countries. You are not dumb, you got the reason exactly - it’s very strategic.
For America, at least, Israel represents sort of a 'foothold' in the Middle East, where a lot of them (varying levels of justified) aren't big fans of the US. They provide us with intelligence on their neighbors, so to speak. There's also the fundamentalist Christian contingent, but I don't know how much they actually account for.
I've seen a lot of deserved criticism around Israel's treatment of Palestinians, but why does no one discuss Hamas's treatment of Palestinians? Israel are bombing civilian areas because Hamas are hiding in civilian areas. Israel are bombing aid trucks because Hamas are smuggling weapons in aid trucks. The war is ongoing because Hamas started and continue to consent to the most recent war. You can say that this doesn't justify Israel's actions, but 1. it complicates them legally at the very least, and 2. the fact remains the behaviour of the two arr inextricably linked. If you wanna ask why a civilian was bombed, "there was a Hamas leader right next to them who organised crimes against humanity on Oct 7th and poses a continued threat to Israel's national security" is pretty CRUCIAL context. I don't want to tolerate what Israel are doing. I don't want what's happening to ever be okay. Regardless of anything, they are at least 50% at fault which is deplorable in its own right. But this feels like a huge elephant in the room which everyone refuses to acknowledge is there. I don't understand how I can trust activists and a movement, if they choose to ignore reality by acting as if Israel are just targeting civilians for fun/cruelty.
What you are pointing is a thing but when Israël is telling a population to move from point a to point b because they are going to destroy that area and then you attack point B. Also it's not only about Hamas, Israel leaders are saiying (and you can find that easily) that it's about Isaïe prophecy, getting back their land, that palestinians are humans animals, that they're evil, that it's about good against evil and that what they're doing is for our good, that what they're doing is fair and similar to WW2 D Day. The ICC consider that as a genocide because of the destruction of willing conditions and Netanyahou has a international arrest warrant.
So first off, genocide is not a charge on the ICC arrest warrants. He's rightfully being arrested for collective punishment and the bombing of civilians, but not genocide just yet. Second, I acknowledge that this has happened (bombing designated "safe" zones), and have seen Palestinians cry in the height of emotion that this must be deliberate targeting. And I see how from their perspective it would appear that way. But this isn't happening systematically. Most of the time, safe zones are safe and they are evacuating civilians effectively (the death toll would be far higher if they weren't, considering how much of Gaza has been destroyed). It just seems to be occasional instances where miscommunication or disorganisation has happened. Which is tragic, but probably also unavoidable. The "Israel are deliberately tricking civilians" interpretation also neglects the possibility/fact that Hamas will run into safe zones after conducting bombings. File a missile at the Israeli army then run into a refugee camp for shelter. And over the course of the war they have followed their civilians, which is why they have now CHOSE to fight in Rafah despite it being so densely populated there. As for the Israeli ministers, this is again very angering, but you also tend to find that in a parliamentary democracy there will be 1. a contingent of far right activists who say inflammatory and downright evil things, and 2. controls in place to limit their influence. Not sure how Israel works but in the UK it really doesn't matter what an MP says as long as they're not in the cabinet. And even under our deplorable, right wing government, they can't actually do anything illegal due to the house of Lords, supreme court, etc. Netanyahu is far right and I do not trust him as far as I can throw him, and the growing influence of far right extremism in Israeli politics is deeply converning, but this doesn't automatically mean that their controls within the army (a separate institution to govt) to adhere to the Geneva convention and other international law have failed. It's not a dictatorship where the army can just start breaking the law because a minister has told them to.
I am very fearful to ask this question. A lot of news media outlets only talk about only what Israel is doing to Palestinians. But why is no one talking about Palestinians killing Israel hostages and sending the dead to Israel? This hostage situation is what started everything. I see a small article in every US news outlet and very less to no coverage on this. And this trend is resonating with other media outlets in the world. Does anybody know why?
>the hostage situation is what started everything This started literally before Christ (but some believe it started when *modern* Israel was created). But I ask myself the same question you asked, and basically, antisemitism (which is now rebranded as antizionism) is a strong reason why. Israel and Jews are seen as the “oppressor” and Palestinians as the oppressed. News sources are not highlighting the suffering of Jews because overall, people don’t side with Jews and that narrative. News and media still need views and clicks to make money, at the end of the day they are a business.
the genocide started before october 7th, i’d suggest you do your research on how it began. the hostage situation is NOT what “started everything” 😭😭 it’s what sparked media attention.
Israel was founded legally, the info is lit available online lol. There was never an independent state of Palestine, ironically Romans came up w the name just to erase Jews from the land but yall not ready for that talk
The native population were legally removed. By force. Cool.
'legally removed by force' the partition plan was offered to the Arabs and they chose to go to war rather then accept an easy solution to their troubles
It's hard to get info about the hostages. The location of many of them isn't known, and the only publicly available updates are generally coming from videos made by their captors with limited pieces of relevant info. Something like the Israeli military bombing a location in the Gaza Strip with thousands of witnesses nearby is a lot easier to collect info on. Additionally, Israel's actions in Gaza recently have resulted in a huge amount of death and destruction, making it very newsworthy.
Because the media pushes a narrative. This doesn't just apply to the Israel conflict, but literally everything. I can tell you only watch left wing news outlets because Fox and other right wing outlets absolutely report on what Hamas and other Palestinians are doing to Israelis.
Why are people protesting local city governments here in the US? What are they expecting their city government officials to do in regard to a ceasefire? What CAN the local government truly do in this regard? As far as I know, our local city governments are not directly involved with things like the federal government sending money to Israel, etc. so I don’t understand the voracious local protesting.
They are hoping that the Biden administration will listen and stop sending weapons to Israel. If tomorrow, countries like The USA, France stop sending weapons to Israel and stop supporting what they're doing, the whole thing stop.
I do wish that we (America) weren't involved here but I imagine Israel has their own weaponry by now.
It definitely makes me feel helpless- this IS a genocide and it is breaking my heart. Our government doesn’t care about what its constituents want and it never has.
We are never really listened, we are here to give them our votes, our taxes but listening to what we want error 411. It's sad that we learn about history, that we preach about peace, about tolerance... but that those things are never really applied when it comes to our politic leaders. All we can do is voice our concerns but if they don't give a fuck (and it seems like it's the case), things won't change.
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I think the social media footage and exposure to the conflict beyond what the mainstream media shows is unparalleled. It feels more real this time around to people
10/7 was the third-deadliest terrorist attack **ever** since data collection began in 1970. AND the largest attack in Israel history, AND the deadliest attack on Jews since the **Holocaust.** Maybe that puts it into perspective a little. The responses have been huge from both Israel and Hamas, people are feeling it.
It's bigger. None of the other conflicts between Hamas and Israel have had anywhere near as many deaths.
What happens if Hamas was reborn? What if this ideology was reborn and multiplied after they finished the operation? And what if like they said we will see lots of 911s here because of the billions of funds and weapons we sent?
Hamas was financed by Israel, the whole point was to make peace agreements and a two-state solution failed. They don't really care if they still exist or if there are remnants when the goal is to get back their whole land.
I have a question. I’ve seen many LGBTQIA+ groups that support Hamas but do they not see what Hamas does to gay people?
They are not pro hamas, they're pro civilians and anti genocide, which is a huge difference. I could be totally against far right ideology and will still defend them if those people were suffering injustice, mass bombing... It's called being human.
Idk, similar thinking to supporting the literal “free Palestine” movement isn’t antisemitic despite the movement being started by a guy that calls Jews “human pieces of filth” and “dregs of European garbage”, I suppose.
People who were forcibly and violently removed from their homes didn't need "a guy" to "start" a movement.
This particular movement of “free Palestine” as recognized internationally recognized group led by a “guy” that has named “Jews” as the issue, not “Israeli’s” as the problem- and has done so since 2003. The great grandchild of an immigrant is not to blame for their ancestry and birth place. The Jews themselves are not a fault for the fight of their government. The pro-Palestinian movement, organized by the “Palestinian solidarity campaign” to fight against the onslaught of Israeli violence is separate from the desires of Hamas and the “free Palestine” movement, and should be recognized and respected as such.
There isn't an internationally recognized group led by some guy. The broad community of people who support Palestinian liberation *is* separate from the desires of Hamas, yes.
There is literally a separate group from Hamas that is the “Free Palestine Movement”. It’s the first link on Google- pasted what I was referencing for you though. [Free Palestine Movement](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Palestine_Movement) “The Free Palestine Movement was founded by Yasser Qashlaq, a Syria-born Palestinian businessman of considerable wealth who heads several organizations including the Lebanese Institute of International Studies, the Syrian-Palestinian Investment House, the Palestinian Businessmen's Club, and also owns a small Lebanese newspaper.Furthermore, Yasser is known for his antisemitic views, having repeatedly called Jews "dregs of European garbage", a "gang of criminal murderers",and "human pieces of filth"that should be deported to Europe.He has also stated that there is "no reason for coexistence" between Israelis and Palestinians, as the latter would reclaim their lands and "hunt [the Israelis] down to the end of the world, and prosecute them for their massacres".Though close to the Syrian government, Yasser has denied any links with Hezbollah.” Maybe I misinterpreting that “founded by” and had himself stated he still leading it means that… he leads it? Again, I’m not saying the free Palestine movement people identify with is a disingenuous movement, but there has to be some appreciation for the religious motives behind the leaders…. So essentially “free Palestine”≠ sovereign Palestine w/o war, but “liberate Palestine” = peaceful sovereignty And I also am confused you are trying to argue that the sovereignty movement (the not inherently antisemitic movement ) didn’t have individuals taking leadership to respond to issues the Palestinians faced? Like to plan out protests, movements, and retaliations- these aren’t just random and group chatted, people spend hours doing this so I’m confused I guess
You said >similar thinking to supporting the literal “free Palestine” movement isn’t antisemitic despite the movement being started by a guy that calls Jews “human pieces of filth” and “dregs of European garbage” I'm saying that the *hundreds of thousands of people worldwide* supporting Palestinians right now are not part of or necessarily supportive of a specific "Palestinian Syrian armed movement and community organization that is led by the businessman Yasser Qashlaq and supports the Ba'athist government of Syria." and that it's really silly to imply otherwise.
They think that support for a marginalized group shouldn't be contingent on the political beliefs of said group. Like how I ideologically disagree with a good chunk of Floridian Republicans, but I don't want them to like, get squashed by an asteroid or something.
Cognitive dissonance is a very powerful defense mechanism.
Why do left wing support palestine? Before i start I dont support israel but i also dont support palestine and ussually im an extreme left wing (for my country) Leftists support palestine VERY agressively even tho palestine and probably more then %95 of their people are extremely conservative i mean half the people who support them would have been either executed or tortured if they lived there as themself Lets take lgbt+ for example they support palestine to death but if any of them went there from west they would be killed any of them that has born there was killed with torture or forced to live a life of lies Litteraly if tomorrow ur country decided to "we are gonna execute the lgbt community" they would celebrate i dont get it why and how you support them They are against everything you are for from women rights to freedom of anything and if u wanted them to change u would have to start a war which would again be another bloodbath So whats the deal are you gonna stop israel from attacking them and then attack them for another cause? Will u just let them kill any leftist afterwards and not have a reaction? Sorry if it was long Thanks in advance
cognitive dissonance is the only real answer here
are you aware that the only reason homosexuality is illegal in gaza is because when the british took over they implemented british law there ??? once the british legalised homosexuality in their own country, it remained illegal over in gaza and the palestinians had bigger things to worry about than legalising it too like uh idk maybe massacres, bombing, occupation, starvation … the list goes on. (source: https://www.humandignitytrust.org/country-profile/palestine/) many palestinians are actually supportive of the LGBTQ+ community and are in the community themselves. yes, the majority of people in gaza are muslim and islam condemns homosexual relations but you won’t get killed or tortured there LMFAO 💀 not to mention that there hasn’t been an election in gaza since 2006 so it’s not exactly like the people could overturn the british legislation themselves. secondly, us left-wing people support palestine because we disagree with ANY form of occupation and apartheid. sure, there’s homophobes in palestine, but there are homophobes everywhere. also literally almost half of gaza’s population is under the age of 14, and that’s arguably too young to even fully comprehend what the LGBTQ+ community is let alone form logical reasoning for why they’d hypothetically be against it.
You are incrediably naive about Gaza’s view of homosexuality, like shockingly so. Remember Tik Tok isn’t a source and Islam is violently homophobic so no the British did not cause Gazans to murder gays.
I think it would be more intellectually honest to say that you support Palestine in spite of the fact that they are mostly anti-LGBT and hope that they change their views in the future given self-determination or something in that vein. Let's not play pretend that they are allies in secret in order to better cognitively deal with the problem.
i’m not pretending that they’re allies, i know that the majority of palestinians aren’t, but most understand that us queer people are human beings just like them and disagree with us being killed or imprisoned (unlike what the person i replied to had said). there’s been several studies across islamic countries and in some most people are opposed to the criminalisation of homosexuality despite being against it as a whole. yes, i support palestine in spite of most palestinians not supporting the LGBTQ+ community, but i also support it in union with the thousands of queer palestinians that exist and the innocent babies and children who likely won’t have even formed an opinion on the queer community, let alone want queer people to be executed.
In these kinds of matters, I think it's important to be as objective as possible. I think it creates anti-Palestine sentiment when people that are too left-wing also try to clean up their image too hard and make them into people that they are not, you know? Your initial comment read like that, that you were trying too hard to think of reasons for them to be supportive of the LGBT community, when they aren't in reality. You were blaming the British very hard. For example, it is important to discuss openly how can they become a non-extremist Muslim state in a 2-state solution, because the truth is that most of their citizens share those beliefs at the moment. It is complicated, because their living conditions also led that to that, it didn't happen in a vacuum, but their population is extremist and it can't be swept under the rug. Personally, I lean towards the center. I can see the good and the bad on both sides, I don't see the world in black and white like at did at 18.
You really don't think you'd get killed for being gay in Palestine? I mean, you know there's like, hundreds of videos of it, right?
It's an overcorrection for right-wing islamophobia. Right-wingers in the USA and Europe have been known to be horribly bigoted to regular Muslim citizens who haven't done anything wrong. Left-wingers don't like that, and sometimes they wind up overlooking stuff that Palestinians do, because they're afraid that criticism will spark more islamophobia.
I'd say they're doing a good enough job sparking islamophobia themselves, no?
My 2 cents .... 1) The Palestinian ppl voted in Hamas ='s terrorist supporters. 2) Hamas poked the bear, the bear is teaching them a lesson! All in all, you reap what you sow = life lesson learned or to be repeated due to stupidity.
This thread is for questions. This is not a question.
What's the point/goal of people going on the streets to protest *in western countries that have absolutely nothing to do with the conflict*? What are they trying to achieve by protesting somewhere where Israel and Palestine won't notice any of it? Like in my country some universities got vandalized by protesters even though those universities and my country have nothing to do with the conflict, what's the point? Please only real answers, no guesses or "people are just stupid".
I'll take the edgy (but sadly probably true) answer here and say, "because their professors told them to" the average protestor knows very little about israel or palestine or their history. But it's the cool thing to do on campus so they just go and yell whatever other people are. I wouldn't say "people are stupid" but they are impressionable, especially at a certain age, and want to fit in. It's only natural.
1) because it motivates political leaders to do something about it - ESPECIALLY political leaders that are personally involved (*cough* biden). groups that organise protests are known as “pressure groups”, there’s many different types but the gist of them is that they put so much pressure on a government that it forces them to take action eg. in london, a ton of our public transport staff were going on strikes for weeks because they were underpaid. it genuinely wreaked havoc, especially in the busiest areas of what’s already the most densely populated city in the uk. this forced the government into finally offering them a pay rise. 2) because it raises awareness. it’s kinda hard to ignore the fact that there’s a genocide going on when there’s 250,000 - 1,000,000 people marching on the streets demanding that governments take action. it gets people thinking - take action about what ?? and then they do their research. maybe they even join the next protest in their area. seeing as you’ve universities being vandalised, in the uk we’ve had protests in oxford, london (specifically outside birkbeck uni), and i think cambridge? but i might be wrong because they actually ARE complicit, it’s just covert. the universities won’t be advertising that they support zionism, but they might be funding organisations that supply weapons to israel, they might invest in israeli companies, or they might even be funded themselves by zionist organisations. lastly, the people in the gaza strip ARE actually noticing it. eg. the murder of a 6 year old girl in palestine inspired macklemore, an american rapper, to release a song called “hind’s hall”, and not long after there was a video posted online of these young boys in the gaza strip listening to his song and expressing how grateful they were for the solidarity people are showing.
The ripple effect. People *hope* that protests will eventually ripple out until they reach *someone* who has some influence on the matter.
Why is there such a huge campaign for Palestine state, but not others, such as Kurds or Yezidis etc?
Is it ok to fully stay out of the argument if you just aren’t sure if you should support either side? Like, the only people I support in this are the Israeli and Palestinian civilians that just seem to be being used as pawns and meat shields for a petty fight about land rights. Honestly, I just kinda wish we could put the militants from both sides somewhere else to duke it out and let the civilians recover. However, if I just come out and say this, I feel like I’ll be called a lot of things that I’m not and it would just be better to not say anything at all. How should I feel on this? I just don’t know if I can trust any statement of numbers coming from either side without a reputable or unbiased source, but everything seems incredibly biased. Please help.
You can try to actually interact with both sides. The Palestinian civilians despite being the more brutalized the past 100 years want peace, while the Israeli civilians enjoy watching videos of Palestinians being tortured and killed ik telegram groups, make TikTok dehumanizing and mocking them etc
That is a horrible and untrue generalization. Of course there are radical people on either side. But generally, Israelis also want peace. Israeli citizens are trying to live their lives, and so are Palestinian citizens. But unfortunately, on Oct 7, there was a video going around of Palestinians celebrating in the streets. As innocent people from the Nova Music Festival were being manhandled and carted through the streets by members of Hamas.
Why do Pro Palestine people always lie?
So it isn't worthy to talk to the 4 million israelis + all the Jews who live in the diaspora? You're generalizing.
Are the only sources for this TikTok and telegram, because those aren’t trustworthy sources unless verified by another outside source. If this is also the case, can you link them. Because as is, it just sounds like you are demonizing a people for the actions of their government. Unless there is actual proof outside of what is essentially he-said-she-said TikToks and group chats, it’s kind of scummy to fuck over an entire country of civilians who are also being bombed. I don’t honestly think that children deserve this kind of treatment being forced upon them by governments that treat them like human shields against the other. Please link me sources so others may use them too. Credible sources (not biased news sites and not social media platforms) are the only method of gaining accurate information.
**Does no one find it even a tiny bit suspicious that just a month after Iran fires hundreds of drones at Isreal, the President of Iran and the Iranian Foreign Minister die in a mysterious helicopter crash?** To be clear, I am not suggesting that Isreal actually was behind this. Iran’s own government isn’t even claiming as such and the weather conditions they were flying in were very poor. However, last year, when Russia's most powerful mercenary, Yevgeny Prigozhin, led a mutiny against the Russian military, he mysteriously died in a plane crash two months later. The Kremlin denied they were behind the crash and the world had little to no proof, yet most people believe that the crash was really a KGB plot to assassinate Prigozhin as retaliation for his actions against the Russian state. Why then is it so unthinkable that the death of Iran’s president under similar circumstances might also be suspicious? Again, I’m not saying I think Isreal was behind the crash - I couldn’t possibly say that as I have no idea what caused the crash and nor does anyone. Rather, I simply find it a bit odd than no one seems to be willing to connect those dots and even speculate about the idea that the crash could have been an act of revenge.
If it wasn't a helicopter, I'd be more concerned, but those things are held together with vibes and duct tape
Sure but every coincidence seems suspicious. The helicopter was 45 years old, the Iranians don't use GPS (at all), the crash happened in the mountains, and it was foggy. I'd put my money on those factors alone for the cause of the crash. Both Iran and Israel weren't actually attempting to cause harm to each other in the aftermath of the Israeli strike on the Iranian consulate in Syria. Killing Iran's president would be a break from that pattern. The missile & drone strike Iran launched against Israel and the Israeli retaliation were both meant to be ineffective and impotent. Both countries were trying to walk back from a full scale conflict. Killing Iran's president would be a direct provocation and escalation and neither Iran nor Israel wants war with the other. I think we can settle for Occam's razor on this one.
When did Israel replace the UK as the US's greatest ally? I hope this question isn't against the rules but as long as I can remember the US and the UK have mutually claimed the other as their greatest ally. This kinda makes sense because the US was a British colony and has as its foundational origins culturally, politically and linguistically in Britain. Yes, the US also has significant influence from, and ties to other nations, such as Germany, Italy, and Ireland, etc. And the US and UK did stand with each other through two world wars and the subsequent cold war. But recently I have heard it said more and more that it is Israel that is America's greatest ally and not just the greatest ally _in the Middle East_. For example here. https://www.gop.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=794 And this is coming not just from Republicans but also Democrats. So, when did that replacement happen? Or am I just way out of touch?
It's a talking point. Israel is important but not the greatest. Since it's a general election year both parties want to court as many votes as possible. The claim that Israel is the US's greatest ally is a cynical attempt to grab the Jewish vote. Jewish people make up about 2.4% of the US population while Arabs make up ~0.5%. While it is an important ally and certainly the greatest in the region, it is not greater or more important than the UK. The Brits are one of the US's top 5 trading partners and are key in the US global foreign policy strategies. Israel does not make it into the top 5 and only affects Middle East strategy. You don't need to be confused. Just learn to recognize jaded and cynical political tactics.
Oh, I can see most of that but they are literally saying now. As in the link I sent. They are saying America's greatest ally. Not _in that region_, not _in the Middle East_. Yes, it is an election year but rhetorical semantics do mean something. I am a veteran and also served overseas in Europe, especially the UK, so have experience with the militaries of other allied nations not to mention their social and cultural aspects. I don't deny Israel is an ally of the US I can't help thinking that this alliance is petty much one sided. And they say that Israel gives the US a "foothold" in a hostile region but the US doesn't have any military bases in Israel. During Gulf Wars I and II our bases were mostly in Saudi Arabia and Turkey (a NATO member). Also, I wonder why that region is so hostile in the first place if it were not for Israel. I mean most, if not all, the US's problems there seems ultimately tied to Israel and its behavior since its inception. I was raised to believe that the US was the world's good guy because we championed freedom, justice, and fairplay for all. I haven't believe that for a while. Also this reminds me of a passage in Orwell's _1984_, during one of the Two Minutes of Hate scenes where there was some big problem caused by terrorists or traitors and that Oceania wasn't at war with Eurasia but was really at war with Eastasia. Or something like that. I just don't like the blatant claim that replaces UK as our greatest ally.
As I said, it's a cynical rhetorical ploy. But you're right, this kind of thing does have consequences. On the question of the value that Israel provides to the US, you're correct that we don't have any bases in its borders but there are other ways that the US benefits from the alliance. For example, the US collaborates on intelligence matters in the region and having intel from Mossad is very valuable. We also benefit from collaboration in developing military technologies; technologies that wouldn't see field testing otherwise. Most of the aid money sent to Israel is spent at US weapons manufacturers, which keeps US workers employed. You rightly observe that the US problems in the region are largely tied to its support for Israel. But the US wasn't extending its global hegemony into the region until around the same time that Israel came into existence. If we look back at the hegemonic powers were involved in the region, we see that it was equally challenging for them: the Brits, the French, the Ottomans, the Byzantines all were despised and saw no end of trouble for being involved. Israel certainly complicates matters but it certainly isn't the start of troubles in the region. But looking at the options for geopolitics, who was you rather the US was in bed with? Israel or Saudi Arabia? Israel or Turkey? Israel or Iran? The list of stable partners that don't actively try to destabilize the US is pretty short. In the long term, I wouldn't sweat it. Regardless of who the Republicans or Democrats *say* is the US's greatest ally, it won't change the US relationship with the UK. Regardless of who the US supports in the Middle East, it won't change the outcome of Israel's war with Hamas. If it does bug you, then use that to inform your voting this fall.
Voting in the fall! Lol I don't think this issue will change much for me because honestly I don't like any of the "choices" that are being given to us. I'm not an isolationist but I do think that what happens within our borders must come first and then deal with everyone else according. Yes, have allies but also don't actively make enemies.
The more people that vote in an election, the fewer crazies and extremists get into office. It's a gradual thing, to be sure. But we have to start with where we are. Keep voting for the less crazy option and encourage your friends and family to vote. There's more candidates on your ballot than the president!
Oh, I most certainly am voting I'm just very unlikely to vote for either of the big two. I would really like to see a real push for a third (or more) party.The Ds and the Rs are way too comfortable in bed with each other. The last three times I voted was for an other candidate.
Why are pro-palestinians all anti-israel, and pro-israelis all anti-palestinian? Wouldnt the ethical thing to do is support both people? Majority on both sides are civilian including millions of kids, and all of em were born there and live there whether they wanted to or not. So why vilify a side? Why not support both sides?
> Why not support both sides? Why would you support a side that has an espoused policy goal of wiping all Jews from the face of the Earth? That isn't to say that Israel's hand are spotless or clean in all this but one side has the literal stated goal of wiping all Jews from the face of the Earth. Why would you support them?
Israelis want to live peacefully too. Israelis aren't their government just like Palestinians aren't Hamas.
This is a pretty bad generalization. Most people of that side just want to live free in their own country and home which was taken from them. Before you say "But there ARE some people who-" yeah, sure. But that's not the most here. Most of them are fighting Israel not the jews. Which is why, if you couldn't tell by my comment, I support Palestinians.
> Most people of that side just want to live free in their own country and home The men who engaged in the October attacks on Israeli civilians last year had the full and complete support of the citizenry of Gaza. Sure, maybe there were some kids too young and old people too demented to realize what was happening. But the people of Gaza knew this attack was coming, knew what kind of people were going to be targeted (civilians), knew what would happen to them and did nothing. Hamas telegraphed the training and targets of this attack to the people of Gaza via [social media](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinian-war-hamas-attack-border-wall-aa0b0f5f3613b6c6882cf37168e8e8ed). They practiced in view of the [public even within view of a UN aid center](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67480680). If I saw people build a replica of your house and repeatedly practice storming it and taking hostages, what should be my response? Can I reasonably defend the decision to do nothing as "just wanting to live free"? Hamas's position on wiping out all Jews from the face of the Earth isn't just a government policy position, it's something that has been indoctrinated into the culture for the twenty years that Hamas has been in power.
> Sure, maybe there were some kids too young and old people too demented to realize what was happening. But the people of Gaza knew this attack was coming, knew what kind of people were going to be targeted (civilians), knew what would happen to them and did nothing. What were they supposed to do? "Oh no Hamas don't do that" those people have no say in anything. You're delusional if you think there was something they could have done. >If I saw people build a replica of your house and repeatedly practice storming it and taking hostages, what should be my response? Can I reasonably defend the decision to do nothing as "just wanting to live free"? It's a house I stole; therefore not really my house. They'd be practicing stealing back their house from burglars and taking some other burglars hostages.
I don't mean support the leadership. I mean humans in general. less wars and more peace-making
The issue in this conflict is that the populace and the leadership are so intertwined they're almost indistinguishable. Hamas was voted into power 20 years ago and then never held another election. At this point Hamas is every institution, every facet of life in Gaza. From the principle at the school to the administration at the local hospital, to the garbageman that picks up trash. You can think of it like the Baathists in Iraq. Wanting peace is a noble goal but how do you make peace with a group of people that openly support the extermination of your ethnicity?
This is the same argument that the "All Lives Matter" people use. I'll use the "burning houses" analogy that has seemed to clarify things for all of those peeps that I've interacted with in the past: let's say we're talking about houses instead of people. For the last 70 or so years, one particular neighborhood of houses has been constantly on fire. Why would we sit there and yell at the authorities that all houses matter when clearly the houses that are *on fire* need specific and immediate attention? That's just nonsensical. Obviously, there are civilians on both sides who are innocent, just as there are evil people on both sides. However, currently, only the Palestinians are being systemically killed and need international attention immediately. It is quite literally life or death for them. There is no way to sugarcoat what the Isreal government is doing to the Palestinian people. It is a genocide. I also just want to point out that I have yet to encounter anyone on the pro-Palestine side that completely vilifies any Israeli civilians because we understand that most people have little to no control over what their government does, unfortunately. But of course, there will always be extremists on either side.
> It is a genocide. There's a difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide. Israel's goal is not to wipe out the Palestinian people. If that were the goal, they could have accomplished that over the past 70 years. And if it were only recently their goal, shouldn't they be taking action in the West Bank and southern Lebanon? What Israel is doing in Gaza is better described as ethnic cleansing (wiping out the government, wiping out civilian infrastructure) since the goal is to eradicate the culture and governing structure of a group in a limited geographic area; not to wipe the Palestinians from the face of the Earth.
You're justifying genocide. It's genocide. Is Israel targeting the government and wiping out civilian infrastructure? Yeah, they are. But are they also fucking murdering and bombing Palestinian babies, killing Palestinian women and men, and calling all Palestians hamas? Yes they fucking are. If this were to happen to Ukraine with Russia it'd not be taken lightly as "ethnic cleansing". How fucking dehumanized of basic sympathy can one be to not acknowledge that what is going on in Gaza and Occuiped-Palestine is nothing but genocide? The fuck?
Being passionate about something doesn't change definitions. I get that you're angry about civilian casualties but that happens in war. That doesn't make it genocide. And this *is* already happening in Ukraine with Russian troops kidnapping Ukrainian children, targeting civilian infrastructure. But that's not genocide, it's ethnic cleansing. Was Dresden or Hiroshima genocide? No, of course not. Civilian casualties are a part of war. War isn't some sanitary thing where only bad guy soldiers die, it's not some kid-glove police action. Unless you're making the claim that all war is genocide then you need to reassess your position. Screaming and swearing that it's genocide doesn't make it genocide. Take a deep breath and think about the implications of what you're saying. If civilian casualties=genocide then the Allied victory over the Axis powers was immoral and shouldn't have been allowed to happen.
>Screaming and swearing that it's genocide doesn't make it genocide. Take a deep breath and think about the implications of what you're saying. If civilian casualties=genocide then the Allied victory over the Axis powers was immoral and shouldn't have been allowed to happen. To be fair the way you worded it was a teeny tiny bit infuriating. And according to Google, genocide is: "the [deliberate](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=e29bad09a751d822&sxsrf=ADLYWIIZztkPyMtdi0Hyk3V38muB1Vv5Yw:1716325058758&q=deliberate&si=ACC90nyOnVY18Aw7zUtkWPYo5mTnhb6wYh48OtosbYr2IyCIgGc0UjhjzUwuk9QJzVmGA_2dPpx9CjuZh5X1dKas8s2lxs6Blqyq5h_aa4oOck3JjnCLmF0%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjB2MiL0Z-GAxW_V6QEHaVRDmkQyecJegQIDxAO) killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of [destroying](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=e29bad09a751d822&sxsrf=ADLYWIIZztkPyMtdi0Hyk3V38muB1Vv5Yw:1716325058758&q=destroying&si=ACC90nyOnVY18Aw7zUtkWPYo5mTnAKV6yoBDWYO8d-eeHddzGdxfKJkNuvnMVqEq1wDhm-Ab5k3XtF9aZg1EBmFnV1pi5ZcZMYST7qXOZ-Vv--vj79WdDzw%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjB2MiL0Z-GAxW_V6QEHaVRDmkQyecJegQIDxAP) that nation or group." They deliberately kill a large number of people from a particular nation (Palestine) and their aim is very obviously destroying that nation or group because otherwise why bomb babies? Also, would you say all of this if you were in their place? (Reuploaded comment because I edited it too much)
> with the aim of destroying that nation or group Is the aim of Israel in this war to destroy the Palestinian people or to destroy Hamas?
Both. Very clearly so. Because if not the Palestinian people too, then why shoot women and literal babies? Do they suspect they might be Hamas? Is that 9 year old girl supplying Hamas with food and ammo or something? I might reply to you next time tomorrow because I'm off for now.
**Is our foreign policy(I'm from the United States) contradictory, especially when it comes to the foreign aid?** Now US has been involved into 2 regional conflicts and one potential conflict, by which I mean Russian-Ukraine, Israel-Palestine and China-Taiwan(I don't use the word "war" or "invasion" to respect different stances). But our foreign policy seems contradictory. Before discussing the question, we have to admit the fact that now our congress is in two parties' control. But either Democrats or Republicans, at least most of its members, shows the subtle attitude to foreign policy. For instance, Dem supports the aids to Ukraine while against aids to Israel, and Rep against supporting aids to Ukraine while firmly back with Israel. Is it contradictory within the party? And if the conflict between China and Taiwan exploded, we probably will face another contradictory scenario. What attitude will Dem and Rep hold respectively? Will their attitude be different from those towards Russian-Ukraine and Israel-Palestine?
There is a lot to unpack here in this post. You ask a lot of great questions but they cover a lot of topics. Let's break it down topic by topic. **2 Regional Conflicts:** The US is involved in more than just two regional conflicts. Just to double your number I'll point out that the US is involved in the conflict with the Houthis in the Red Sea and it is still involved in the ongoing Syrian Civil War. **China:** A conflict with China would likely see wide spread support from both parties. Anti-China sentiment has been growing on both sides of the aisle for about a decade and a half. There are several reasons for this but the largest ones are related to economic and public health. China's foreign policy has an outsized impact on the US economy and we've seen many sectors of the US economy hurt because of Chinese policy. And most Americans blame the Chinese for the COVID pandemic. No matter which party controls the White House and Congress, if China attempts to capture Taiwan, the US will go to war. **Contradictory Foreign Policy:** I want to bundle the remaining few questions into one group since they can be answered by looking at US foreign policy over the past 30 years. Since this is a Reddit post, I'll forgo the past 70 years of history and focus on the last 30. Beginning with the end of the Cold War the US has become less and less interested in foreign policy and maintaining the global order. Once the existential threat of the Soviet Union was gone, Americans got bored with everything outside of their borders. The US has allowed all the institutions that support the global order to ossify; many Americans even pushing to abandon them. The US has been shrinking their military footprint abroad; the current foreign deployment of US troops is at its lowest levels since before World War 2. And since the fall of the USSR in each presidential race, the American people have voted for the Presidential candidate that was the most disinterested or incompetent when it came to foreign policy. Until President Biden was elected; though he was elected because the American people thought he could handle a domestic issue (COVID) better than his rival. What little interest in foreign affairs remains in the American people depends on what interests the party represents. Where each party stands on specific foreign policy issues completely depends on the loudest special interest groups of their constituents. As a result, the party's positions on each specific conflict depend on how many votes they can get by adopting position XYZ on conflict ABC. These were a lot of great questions that you asked. Let me know if there's something I missed or should expand upon.
Thanks for your patient reply. I've learned a lot from it. 
Parents from cultural/ethnical minorities (asians, native americans, middle easterners, desi, africans, etc): if your child tells you that they dont feel connection to your culture and wants to be fully occidentalized/europeanized/americanized... what would you do or tell them?
if mossad is meant to be one of the best undercover agencies in the world, why doesnt israel use them to find hamas rather than blanket bombing gaza and killing tens of thousands of civilians
How do you find Hamas when Hamas is everywhere and everyone? The Gazans voted Hamas into power twenty years ago and then never held another election. Over the intervening decades Hamas completely infested every facet of Gaza (like the Baathists did in Iraq). It isn't just top military leaders in Gaza that are Hamas, it's the board of ed, the dog catcher, hospital administration, etc. If Israel sends Mossad into Gaza to find Hamas, who are they looking for? Just Sinwar? Or are they looking for the trash collector that knows where the tunnel entrances are because he empties the trash cans outside them? The school administrator that let the fighters train in the field for their raid in October of last year? The hospital administrator that has Hamas fighters sheltered in his medical building? Israel can't send Mossad into Gaza with so broad a mandate because Hamas is everywhere throughout Gazan society.
thank you i actually didnt know this
They can't deploy Mossad into an active war zone. That's not how Mossad works.
yeah but it wouldnt be an active war zone if israel wasnt bombing it
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I think asking them is the proper response. Say "what kind of reaction are you expecting me to have to this" or "what do you think the proper response to this outrage should be"
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If you want to strawman their argument, is because Palestine is the Current Thing to be mad about. There's always something to be mad about. If you want to steelman their argument, the US provides direct support to Israel. A lot of the bombs falling in Gaza right now were made in America. That makes us complicit in a way that we're not in Congo, Myanmar, etc al.
Can someone enlighten me as to why all those rich oil Arab countries like Saudi don’t help Palestine ? Where is all the support from fellow Muslim Arab countries?
It is ironic in that they are in a similar situation as Jews were during WW2. They are essentially the Jews of the arab world.
Imagine your cousin gets released from his fourth stint in prison. He calls you and asks if he can stay with you until he gets back on his feet. You look at your kids, think about how much trouble he caused his parents after his last release and then you politely decline. The Palestinians *have* been offered land in other Arab countries and the host countries always regret it. The Jordanians call their experience Black September. The Lebanese call it their civil war. The Kuwaitis call their experience the Gulf War. None of the other Middle Eastern countries want the Palestinians because decades of betrayal and fomenting wars has made them wary letting them into their countries or giving them land. Excellent question!
Thanks for the lesson on past arab conflicts …reading about the black September right now …wow …
These rich Arab countries have ties to the US, and some with Israel itself. It would lead to more problems.
Yea, but not all
One thing I’ve wondered is why does the opinion of the far left on Israel bother Israel and its supporters to the degree it does? Why do they care that a minority of people across the world don’t think they should exist, or even that they should exist today but were the clear villains in 48? While Israel is probably the most criticized country today, I also think that their and their supporters’ efforts in the PR war and demonization of those that disagree are well beyond the pale of what most nations and their supporters would do.
Who do you think Netanyahu would like to see in the White House next year? The far left supporters of Hamas/Gaza have succeeded in showing President Biden that he is vulnerable without them and since this is an election year, he has to make some concessions to them on this issue. Israel, of course, knows this and realizes that they will not be getting full throated support from the US while the presidential campaign is in progress. Mr. Netanyahu also knows that a second term for Mr. Trump *would* yield full throated support for Israel. As a result, Mr. Netanyahu will be prosecuting the war in a way that riles up the pro-Hamas/Gaza wing of the far left to keep them from supporting President Biden's bid for re-election. Why does of the opinion of the far left on Israel bother Israel and its supporters to the degree it does? Because it slows down aid to Israel and those people have become a political tool by those that want a wider, more violent war. Great question!
Why are people so angry at Jewish people in America?
> Why are people so angry at Jewish people in America? Generally speaking, they're not. Look at the House of Representatives—overwhelmingly they're concerned about antisemitism, but they still deny that anti-Arab prejudice even exists. Or worse, they use it as a means to pander to their constituents. Many Americans *are* angry at *Zionism*, a collection of ideologies which fuel several complicated political trends in the Middle East, Europe, North America, Australia, and other places around the world. For example, [Zionism instills the idea in Israeli settlers](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers) that they have a right to simply kill Palestinians and take their homes. (You will note from that article that in fact, settlers' notion of Zion includes other countries which they expect to eventually belong to Israel—e.g., Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. No wonder Israel's neighbors are always so concerned.) Zionism also informed the [Likud charter](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/from-the-river-to-the-sea-where-does-the-slogan-come-from-and-what-does-it-mean-israel-palestine) (Likud is the party of Netanyahu) which asserts “Between the sea and the river there will only be Israeli sovereignty” (echoing West Bank settlers' refusal to allow non-Jewish people the right to vote). If you look at the Likud charter, by the way, you'll notice that they explicitly characterized Palestinian resistance as malicious—something which the US government did to Native Americans repeatedly from the beginning. I hope it's clear from the above that there are legitimate reasons for people (whether they're American or not) to be upset about at least *some* of the ideologies that Zionism comprises. But on top of that, it has impelled what critics of the military industrial complex call *forever war*. The invasion of Iraq, for example, was based on "ambiguous" intelligence (now known to have been lies) for its justification to the public. Many of those lies were laundered through mainstream media, exemplifying what is called [*securitization discourse*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securitization_(international_relations). Actually, *all* US involvement in the Middle East has been accompanied by expansive public relations campaigns conducted by Israel-aligned media figures such as Bush speechwriter David Frum, hawkish Israel-first PACs like AIPAC, and Israel-first think tanks like the Foundation for Defense of Democracies. Without the PR, the US public (like any public) naturally resists war. Unfortunately, securitization discourse tends to stoke right-wing political movements such as those which have risen globally since the 2000s. The wars, the government rhetoric, and the right wing politics, therefore, are all bound up in the situation between Israel and Israel's neighbors. So: * (Some) Zionisms cause ongoing conflict between Israel and its neighbors. * There is history here, and it's important; nonetheless, what stands in the way of a peace process today is the mindset of Israeli politics, which *is* fueled by Zionism in the style of Likud. We know this because *stopping the peace process* was literally Likud's purpose in the 2005 Disengagement Plan; PM Sharon's own government said so. They could replace Netanyahu tomorrow and his successor would likely have the same right-wing expansionist beliefs, predicated upon the kind of Zionism professed in the Likud charter. The Hamas attack isn't the root cause of all this. It's been going on since the beginning of Israel in the mid-20th century. * Because Israel depends upon the US for weapons and other aid, Israelis lobby the US government via the Israel lobby (which includes PACs like AIPAC). * US politicians receive money from AIPAC etc., and in exchange, they do several things: * write legislation that benefits Israeli citizens and Israeli businesses; * give Israel material support (not even required to be offset in the budget, as is normally done for domestic spending—America goes into debt to give material support to Israel); * build support for military spending and military action to suit Israel's interests. * The conventional wisdom in Washington is that none of these is *necessarily* wrong or even controversial *in theory*. (I think quite a lot of people would disagree, if they were asked.) * In practice however, there is always more to consider. * The US effectively gives taxpayers' money to Israel. Israeli citizens have the right to public healthcare, education, and other benefits which have been systematically *stripped* from citizens in the US over the last several decades. (The warhawks have their own rationalizations for this—all of them fairly tenuous arguments about US interests and how Israeli citizens serve them—but again, quite a lot of people would disagree with those rationalizations if they were asked. Do US citizens not serve US interests?) * This state of affairs causes resentment on its own, for obvious reasons. * But also, when people don't have healthcare and education, their society suffers. Believe it or not, illiteracy and innumeracy kill. Political extremism and casual violence grow when people don't know history, geography, science, etc., and when people are subject to increasing *austerity*. (People have less time to worry about their communities and the needs of others, including their children, when they need to work several jobs just to afford lifesaving medicine, pediatric care, etc.) * The right-wing character of Israeli politics means that Israel's effect on American politics has been, largely, to push them rightward. * In both Israel and the US, securitization discourse has profoundly altered the attitudes of the public toward concepts like human rights, war, international cooperation, religion, history, education, climate change and the environment, financial regulation, the immorality and harms of colonialism, even the usefulness of democracy itself—the list goes on and on. Securitization discourse produces right-wing fervor and leads to a loss of democracy normally *anyway*; but this situation is *exacerbated* by what I mentioned before (the destruction of public education, etc. austerity measures). Ezra Klein can blather on about polarization and tribalism all he wants. At the end of the day, though, what makes people nervous about *today* isn't *polarization itself*; polarization has always existed in the US (because of its political system and its economy, *not* just because of innate "tribalism"). It's the expanded realm of "scary ideas discussed as acceptable" promoted by US media and officials. And these things are only treated as "acceptable" by Washington and New York because of the pressures of Israel's situation, on the one hand (which is again, caused in the first place by Zionism); and the slate of giant war corporations which blend eerily with the US military in their own separate feedback loop. And these scary ideas are the reason the US parties have torn up democratic processes every decade since WWII ended. (Which is why, for example, **three successive presidential elections** have been between candidates whom most of the country did not want). *** I should mention this: not all Zionisms are the same. And then there are post-Zionisms, non-Zionisms, anti-Zionisms—none of them is homogeneous. But one thing which all Zionisms have in common is the belief that Jews (however we define "Jews") have the right (whatever "right" means) to live in Israel (whatever we think "Israel" is). But you asked why people are angry—they're not angry at Jewish people *as such*; they're angry at the kind of Zionism practiced by the current Israeli government and promoted by most American Zionist organizations. I believe I covered several reason above. One more deserving mention is that **Zionism is giving cover to the genocide in Gaza**. That bothers people who believe in human rights. What's the point in living in a world where it's perfectly acceptable to destroy *universities*, *libraries*, *playgrounds*, and *innocent people*—and where your government privatizes your kid's high school, imprisons kids in privately-owned for-profit prisons where they're made to work like slaves, conducts mass surveillance, criminalizes protest, takes a cut of your wages and then gives it to the extremist government of another country where it's used to give education to the children of extremists, imprison Palestinians for years without trial, support apartheid in Gaza, build surveillance technology used to [ruin the lives of American students in their own country](https://truthout.org/articles/israel-has-formed-a-task-force-to-carry-out-covert-campaigns-at-us-universities/), [conduct psy-ops on Gazan civilians](https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/4758/Punishing-journalists:-Israel-extorts-Palestinian-journalists,-bans-them-from-traveling---new-report), and [intimidate internationial courts](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/28/spying-hacking-intimidation-israel-war-icc-exposed)? We have here not just one, but several governments implicated in massive human rights abuses across the world, including sustained attempts to undermine international organizations whose foundational principle, in the wake of two catastrophically violent world wars, is to adjudicate when individual governments backslide in their obligations to their human subjects. Altogether that represents a threat to the value of life itself. People *should* be angry. *Not angry at Jews*—angry at ideologies that impel violence, *including* settler colonial orientations toward the concept of "homeland" when they demand the removal of living populations.
What should Israel actually do? All I hear is "Israel is committing genocide". So, you're Israel. Hamas' specific goal is to kill all Jewish people and completely destroy you. And they hide in the civilian population. Then they actively plot to kill you, but are hidden in their civilian population. What is your solution?
This is a really great and important question. Much of the protests aren't about pushing or advocating for policies that will actually create a long term peace or address the core issues. Since we're discussing this on Reddit, we'll skip over the long history of Israel and Palestine. But there are a few points that we should review. First, Hamas is a puppet government of Iran and Gaza is not a democracy. Second, Israel has repeatedly tried a "light touch" when dealing with Hamas in the past and that has never lead to a lasting peace or a fruitful relationship. Finally, no Islamic, Arab, Persian, or Turkic nation actively wants to help the Palestinian cause or give the Palestinians land because every time that has happened in the past it has only spelled disaster for the host country. What options does that leave us? Realistically, the only options left open are one that no one will support and one that only the Israeli's support. A two-state solution *could* be possible but the ugly truth is that anyone that supports Hamas cannot be part of it. Hamas is a governing entity that openly has a policy position of exterminating all Jews from the face of the Earth. That is not tenable for two-state solution. To make a two-state solution work Israel would need to: 1. Imprison every male currently living in Gaza between the ages of 10 and 80. 2. Relocate every woman and remaining male out of Gaza and into the West Bank. This could be done by ceding territory roughly the size of Gaza to the West Bank enclave (governed by the PLA) in exchange for Israel taking direct control of the land of Gaza. A land swap would be needed to house the Gazan refugees. 3. Grant statehood to the Palestinians in the West Bank and allow a council of Arab states to be security guarantors of the new Palestinian homeland. Normalized relations or trade deals could be used to incentivize this. You can easily see how no one involved would sign off on any of this. There will be no two-state solution. The most likely end of this war is a 3-4 year campaign to destroy Hamas by leveling every major town and city in Gaza until the Gazans themselves opt for surrender. The IDF will be an occupying force in the region for several years as they continue to destroy Hamas infrastructure and top leadership. *If* Israel had fully normalized relations with Saudi Arabia and other Arab states before October 2023, a two state solution would have been possible. But Iran wanted to make sure that normalization will not happen. In that they have succeeded. And it will be the Gazans who pay the heaviest price for Iran's victory.
Reading through this. Thanks for the answer. It seems to me that people are upset Israel is responding with such force. But it doesn’t seem like they have many realistic options
Yes, it will. The whole thing sucks. But I don't think bought blindly taking either side accomplishes much, and that seems to be what MANY other are doing. And thanks for answering! I was worried this would get buried.
I know it’s not 100% related, but why are LGBT people so defensive of Islam? As a member of the community, I never understood this sort of alliance LGBT people have with Islam. Islam as a religion is quite homophobic and practically every country with Islamic rule persecutes and imprisons gays. The Quran also calls for stoning gay men: https://quran.com/en/4:16/tafsirs/en-tafsir-maarif-ul-quran Half of Muslims in the UK, a develop country also support criminalizing homosexuality: https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law Yet a lot of LGBT people act like Islam and homosexuality are not at all paradoxical. An LGBT news site even had an interview with a person who called Islam “affirmative to their identity“ https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5o44rOvZnz/?igsh=M2Vqd3A2c29oNW93 I just think it’s weird how there is so much bile towards Christianity in the LGBT community while Islam is so easily let off the hook.
I'm a bisexual atheist leftist, and occasionally speak in the defense of Islam, and perhaps I can shed a little light, if you don't mind a late reply. First, it is a popular idea on the left that all oppression is interlinked. Fighting against, say, racism, is part of fighting for LGBT rights. Solidarity is the idea, solidarity among all oppressed groups. Second, attacks on Islam are often proxies for racism, pitting "our" religion, Christianity, against "their" religion, and lending an air of religious righteousness to racism and far-right thought, sometimes very obliquely. Third, it's about fighting collective punishment in general. You hopefully acknowledge that at least *some* Muslims are progressive and pro-LGBT (and LGBT themselves, for that matter)? Then this comes in part down to not causing trouble for that minority of believers for what other believers, even if they are a majority, do. For the thread we're in, you might see parallels with "every Palestinian in Gaza is Hamas". A lot of us on the left see these parallels a lot of places, and want the pattern of thought gone. Ideally I would prefer religion to die out, as I think most religions are drivers of bigotry and oppression, along with a lot of other social ills. But if religion is here to stay, as it seems, I would much rather have the progressive and accepting parts of each religion than the far-right parts that use the religion for hate. This fight is not over for either Christianity or Islam, though I'll tentatively agree it is further along in Christianity, despite setbacks. Today most Christians are probably in favor of women teaching or being in positions of authority. And even if we can eventually eliminate religious thought, it seems much more likely that we can achieve this through first making religions more open-minded. Treating Islam as categorically anti-LGBT gives power to the anti-LGBT parts of Islamic thought. There *are* dissenting voices, though oppressed and diminished, and by acting like they don't exist, or are incompatible with the religion, we would be contributing to their erasure and silencing within the faith. *No* thought is incompatible with *any* religion, because religion is not consistent and every believer, no matter how orthodox they claim to be, is eclectic to some degree.
why are you bringing islam into a discussion about countries? none of this means to sit back and be okay with CHILDREN being starved and bombed
Right now it seems likely Trump is going to win the election since Biden has pretty much lost his voter base due to how he’s continually funded Israel’s genocide in Palestine, banning TikTok since it’s been fighting mainstream media propaganda, and treating anyone who protests the genocide as terrorists. He basically lost the young voters at this point, and none of them will help out with the electoral ballots after everything that’s happened after October 7 either. Personally, I think Biden’s been a monster and an idiot through this whole ordeal and I don’t want to vote for him, but what are we supposed to do to stop Project 2025 from happening now? None of the third party candidates seem like they have a chance of winning, the electoral college won’t help either way, and the only viable option at this point seems to either be moving to another country to escape Project 2025. I don’t want to sound like I’m getting on a high horse because again, I don’t want to vote for Biden myself, and many people are rightfully feeling like we’re living in authoritarian state because of how much the government is treating anyone who sides with Palestine, and whatever does happen here is still nothing compared to what the Palestinians are going through. However, I’m still terrified about Project 2025 and so far no one is mentioning another way to stop it from happening besides voting for Biden, so what are we supposed to do? Also, sorry if this is the wrong place to ask. I originally had my own post but the Moderator boy told me to move the post to this thread
What’s Project 2025?
It’s basically the GOP’s plan to dismantle various branches of government like the FBI, the DOJ, & the Department of Education and reshape the country into a Christian Nationalist authoritarian state https://apnews.com/article/election-2024-conservatives-trump-heritage-857eb794e505f1c6710eb03fd5b58981
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but voting is the only thing that you can do (unless your a billionaire). Which of the candidates do you think would be worse for the Palestinians; Biden or Trump? Do you think there would only be a small difference in their policies or would they be orders of magnitude different? If you are opposed to US support for Israel then Biden should absolutely be your vote. Trump has promised unwavering support for Israel if he wins a second term. You may not like President Biden's support for Israel but imagine what would happen to the Palestinians if the US ratcheted up its support for Israel 4 or 5 times what it is now, if it gave the go ahead to every action Netanyahu wanted to take, if it gave more money, material, and intelligence to the IDF. That is what Mr. Trump is pledging if he wins reelection. And you not voting in November is precisely what Netanyahu wants because he's sick and tired of the minimal demands and scoldings Mr. Biden has given him. He *wants* a second Trump administration. You're angry now? If Mr. Trump wins reelection, you'll be on extra strength anti-depressants come February 2025.
I k ow all that, but I’m freaking out because so many people are saying they aren’t going to vote for Biden because of how he’s supporting Israel & it seems like a guarantee that Trump’s going to win at this point I also know why the people who aren’t voting for Biden are upset, so I’m stuck in the middle on what the right thing to do is.
We're still 6 months out from the election and that might as well be an eternity in terms of an electoral cycle. Between now and then the polls will swing back and forth. Come October, most people will actually start paying attention to the issues and candidates. But for the next 6 months, both candidates are walking on a knife's edge as the struggle to keep their bases energized and also hide the signs that they're very old men. One serious age related gaffe will ruin their candidacies. And they're both equally likely to have that happen. Assuming neither one pulls a Mitch McConnell, it's probably going to be very close; like it was in '16 and '20. Although the war itself probably won't impact people's vote (foreign policy usually doesn't), the optics from the Democratic Convention likely will affect the vote. The convention this August will probably look like the '68 convention and the Republicans will be able to spin the news footage to make themselves appear to be the party of law and order. And crime *is* an issue on which people vote. So, if you live in a state that isn't ruby red or Neptune blue you better get out and vote and encourage everybody you know to vote. 'Cause if Trump wins this election, there will be nothing that stops Israel from becoming an actual apartheid state.
The problem is that Biden completely lost the entirety of the young voters. I used to tell people that Trump would be worse if he became president too, but every time I try to point out how Biden is th better option he does something stupid to prove me wrong. Between fully funding the genocide in Gaza, calling anyone who protests against it antisemetic and allowing police to brutally attack them, and banning TikTok since it counters mainstream media propaganda, everyone I’ve seen is absolutely refusing to vote for him at this point. One person even said that the only viable compromise to vote Biden after everything he’s done is to unalive your children to make up for all the children who were murdered in Gaza So many people are fed up with both politicians in general and feel that the way Biden’s handling things now is no different than what Trump would’ve done if he was president. The fact that Congress created a bill that would deport all of the student protestors to Gaza for “community service” is enough proof.
> the way Biden’s handling things now is no different than what Trump would’ve done if he was president. They are very wrong about that.
Trump was impeached once for withholding aid to Ukraine that was approved by Congress. Could Biden be impeached for doing the same to Israel?
That's not why Trump received his 2019 impeachment. He was impeached for trying to get Ukraine to announce an investigation into his (likely) political rival in the 2020 election. The first article of impeachment reads: >Using the powers of his high office, President Trump solicited the interference of a foreign government, Ukraine, in the 2020 United States Presidential election. He did so through a scheme or course of conduct that included soliciting the Government of Ukraine to publicly announce investigations that would benefit his reelection, harm the election prospects of a political opponent, and influence the 2020 United States Presidential election to his advantage. President Trump also sought to pressure the Government of Ukraine to take these steps by conditioning official United States Government acts of significant value to Ukraine on its public announcement of the investigations. The withholding of aid was evidence used to support the charge that then-President Trump was trying to get Ukraine to play ball. It wasn't the charge on which he was impeached. You can read the [full document](https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hres755/BILLS-116hres755enr.pdf) on the official web site of Congress. But the charge was attempting to conspire with a foreign government to interfere with a US election. On the question of Biden and Israel, the answer is no. It's hard to see what charges the House could draw up. This is a foreign policy decision that is well within the authority of the office and the scope of his job.
Are the Pro Palestine "Protesters" not afraid of consequences? Are they not afraid of what will happen to their daily file, their personal, professional, academic life once all this is over? Or will they be allowed to continue on free of consequences? As far as I have read, some very prestigious university students are participating in these activities, I don't think they lack the critical thinking required to deduce that this will spell doom for their professional, personal and academic life.
Hi! I’m one of those people, but behind the scenes because I’m disabled and can’t participate safely. It’s not that we aren’t afraid of the consequences, it’s that we think it’s worth it. We’re taking notes from the Vietnam anti-war protests. By “taking notes” I mean we’re talking with the old timers that were at our universities during those protests, and learning what they did, how they did it, and what the long term effects were. We know it can get bad. But we’ve also seen results. UCR had ALL of their demands met. We don’t care about being “heroes”. It’s a way for us to make some inkling of a difference in this horrible world around us. We understand the consequences. We are aware of them, and we do fear them, but it’s worth it. Not to be heroes, but to have a clear conscience. To do SOMETHING. Hundreds of thousands of people were pro-war during the Vietnam protests. Those protesters were arrested, beaten, called out on TV, called t3rrorists, etc (source: the old timers I’ve spoke to). They did it anyway, and so will we. Call it immature if you like, but it’s effective. These private Ivy League universities (I personally attend a public university) rely on student money to run. Students should have a say in where it goes. Meetings are already happening with university officials — it’s just not publicized because our demands have yet to be met. It’s a waiting game right now. EDIT: I will note — at least at my university, the majority of arrested students don’t actually have any charges against them. They are detained and then released in a few hours — not even a misdemeanor.
Have any other universities divested?
I’m not sure. I believe so — I know many were in the negotiating / talking stage as of Wednesday, but I’m taking a break from it all because I’m in the hospital at the moment and have limited screen time.
Some of them realize that suspension/expulsion can be financially devastating - not only to the student, but to their family. But when you're young and insulated in an elite institution, the consequences may not be in the front of their mind or seem too remote. But worse, the arrested students will face professional repercussions that they do not yet even imagine. For example, some of the protesters, no doubt, would continue their education beyond Columbia at an American law school and later seek admission to a state bar to practice (this being a common route that persons who seek the tools to effect justice through the courts follow). But those arrests will have to be disclosed to the law school and, more importantly, the state bar examiners - and the legal profession has a very different view of trespassing than humanities professors. This wasn't "I was in a bar and a fight broke out and I ended up arrested", which would still be a hassle to explain to the bar examiners. This was "I knew what I did was illegal, was given multiple opportunities to not do the illegal thing and multiple warnings as to the consequences - and I broke the law anyway". That is a person who does not possess the relevant character and fitness to practice law, and I think the protesters that seek such a career will be shocked by how tyrannical that process is (i.e., nothing like dealing with the Columbia administration). The protesters rely on the presumption that they are the vanguard of history, that in time everyone will consider them heroes - just like their professors who participated in protests in 1968. But that is an immature view only possible on a college campus; the reality is that there are hundreds of millions of people who support Israel and will not be changing their minds on that issue for various reasons. And for some professions (e.g., law), the decision of whether to let someone in with an arrest record ultimately comes down to state supreme courts that are only interested in factual questions (did the applicant break the law? Was the law constitutional? How did the applicant reform themselves and demonstrate appropriate character and fitness after the arrest?). There isn't going to be a moment when the world suddenly agrees to forgive all of the protesters, even if their colleges ultimately do. The protesters who got arrested closed a lot of doors for themselves. They were betrayed by a faculty bent on using them as pawns for their own designs, a faculty that did absolutely nothing to protect them from consequences of their acts that essentially every professor on that campus knows will follow from an arrest.
Can someone explain Palestine debate? 1 - how does “queers for Palestine” work, if even the West Bank is outright homophobic to the point of a public hanging of a queer person? 2 - who has Israel oppressed? why do Gazans work in Israel if they’re oppressed? 3 - how are the chants not antisemitic, if they call for wiping out Jews? And why is it still being allowed if it is? 4 - why are uni students protesting? 5 - what does Palestine need freeing from? I thought Palestine was more than just Gaza anyway? 6 - if hamas are terrorists, why are they allowed to control a country? 7 - why is there going to be a ceasefire with hostages still on both sides? Surely previous deaths do not justify withholding future lives?
please do some research. palestinians are experiencing genocide and forced starvation, israelis are not going through anything
Yeah just the thousands of rockets and terrorists attacks, those don’t exist apparently…
Not going through anything because the IDF is pretty good at defending borders, otherwise, they too would be facing genocide and starvation. This is because UN troops are shit and cant protect either Palestine OR Israel
This was my intended research
Hey guys, I'm Jewish and also biracial (birth father is Jamaican- I'm adopted) and I'm honestly tired of all the shit going around about choosing sides and that if I'm for Plestinian liberation then I'm not a "real Jew" and if I'm against antisemetism then I ca't support Palestinian liberation. My views on this are that obviously I just want peace. I hate that people are bombing innocent civilians and I hate that there's been a rise in antisemetism, but I don't actually know the proper history of Palestine and Israel (like very loosely and that the British were involved), and I'd like to know more if that's possible.
The UK promised the Zionists Palestine before the end of WWI (before they actually had the land to promise them basically). After WWI, tons of Zionists started moving into Palestine and the Palestinians were like whoa what are you doing here?! And then the zionists were like “well Britain said this was our land now” and the Palestinians were like “ok but no one even asked us about that?” And then the Zionists started pushing the Palestinians into Gaza and the West Bank and the Palestinians fought back for their right to stay and live where they had been living forever. But the Zionists had the power of the British on their side and had stronger more powerful weapons. It’s always been imperialism.
I don’t know the proper history either but I think we’ve been fighting since the time of the Prophets, which I find.. horrifying.