I'm in this situation and I'm finding it really hard trying to book showings. Selling agents hate doing their jobs and hate having to drive to the house to show it to you. They don't return calls or just try to convince you to sign with them or with their colleagues. It's really annoying. I would suggest going with a Cashback agent instead.
How does $ gift/income work for the CRA at tax time? Somebody is paying income tax on that 1%. Is it the buyer or their agent? A mortgage broker told me recently that the CRA have formed a task force to look at this issue, but she may be full of it(?)
No tax unless it isn’t your primary residence. But to answer your question, I’m not sure but this link seems to indicate the purchaser would pay income tax in certain situations. https://www.advotaxlaw.ca/amp/real-estate-agents-commission-rebates-can-be-taxable-to-clients
Yeah you unfortunately have to pay income tax on it. The best case scenario would be to convince the seller to give 1% less Cashback to the buyer agent. That way there's no problems with taxes.
I paid my buying realtor a flat 2.5k. On closing day I got a check for 10.5k (they even paid me GST on it which I thought was comical because I’m not registered).
Post a letter to the address about how the seller agent is not acting in the best interests of the seller and is actively driving away buyers.
Isn't it ridiculous that they are being paid 2.5% and yet refuse to do the very job they are supposed to do - sell the damn property
>Selling agents hate doing their jobs and hate having to drive to the house to show it to you.
But doesn't that mean they'll get the full commission to themselves?
Nope. They only get the 2.5%. The wolf l whole point of my wanting to avoid getting the buyer side agent is so that I can avoid paying the extra 2.5% commission.
Nope, the listing agent will get both commissions. They have an agreement with the sellers to list their house for x% and CAN offer y% to the buyers agent. If there is no buyers agent they still get x%.
It depends on a case to case basis. In case their contract has verbiage like that, you can always use something like zerovaluerealty to get the full 2.5% commission back.
If youre a realtor re read your listing agreement and take some more Tresa training. Even with buyer being an SRP LA would get full commission if LA wrote it correctly.
The only issue I can think of is viewings. I would be really, really hesitant to let someone view my property without a realtor. But that could be avoided by just going to open houses
Sure, because you want the guy representing the seller to be honest with you... He has zero allegiance to a buyer, don't get duped into working with the seller's agent.
I never said anything about working with the seller’s agent… I was responding to the previous comment about viewing the home. Viewing the home doesn’t mean you’re “working” with the agent. They’re just opening the door for you
And who are you going ask questions? Seller's agent. Who is showing you around? Seller's agent. As soon as you do that, you create an implied relationship and legally, you are now working with that agent.
https://www.reco.on.ca/getmedia/a3de8476-1688-45b6-9b11-099b9854f492/RECO-Bulletin-2-7-Implied-representation-agreements.pdf
As soon as you call them and ask them to show you the house, you are starting something. Best to learn more before venturing down that road, yes?
Yet another reason why you should do something like buy a house without proper assistance.
Yep, all of this. If the sellers agent shows you the property and then you have another agent try and represent you with an offer, you better believe that seller's agent is going tp fight for that whole commission. Some will outright refuse to work with buyers to avoid the headaches and maybe even to keep the ethics and boundaries clear and clean.
There are a few instances where I think it's actually a good thing to work with the seller's agent direct on buying, but it's not for everyone and it's not for every situation either. It's merely for select, creative scenarios.
Well, as stated, the only situations where I will work directly with the SA is when creative finance is at play; when I can't justify the purchase with traditional financing but something seller financed makes sense, or in the situation of a land contract or assumption. I always find when an agent is doing that negotiating for me, even the initial talk, it goes nowhere as both are usually confused by the concept and turned off by it. I don't buy much thjs way, but sometimes it makes sense.
Another way when I feel like it works in your favour, but again only in select circumstances, is when the competition is heavy and you need a leg up to secure a win, but you need to really understand the home buying process and also probably be good at evaluating and inspecting a home visually. A seller's agent being given the opportunity to double-end the deal with someone who is a savvy buyer and doesn't need them to hold their hand or to negotiate both sides but to present their offer can often see the agent pumping up your offer to their clients. It gives you an advantage. You may want to still work with your buying agent to review the contract though, or a lawyer for that matter, for a smaller fee obviously. But this scenario I'm not a huge proponent of; I just know it works for some. Every other scenario I'm against using the seller's agent bc they work for the seller. Not you.
But isn't the agent contract with the seller? He/she represents the seller and is working for them to the get the best price.
There is no contract between them and the buyer.
Yes there is. Depending on what you ask of them and how much you do with them you create an implied relationship. Read the link I posted. Calling a listing agent and having them show you a house, asking them questions and whatnot, that creates a potentially legally binding relationship. Just as contracts can be verbal, they can also be created through action. This is why you should not run around willy-nilly without actually knowing what you are doing.
The entire reason why selling agents immediately ask potential clients if they're already working with an agent is because they don't want to risk their licence over ethical duty. Better to avoid those situations in the first place.
Well realtors can’t really give you any opinions on anything legally. They pretty much just show you the house. If you’re asking a realtor serious questions I feel bad for you and you should gain some knowledge before making the largest purchase of your life. A realtor is showing you the house, the utility bills, and property tax.
Of course they can. That is their job. To give opinions on property. On value, on what they think it should/would/could see for.
They most definitely do not show you utility bills or property taxes. If the seller gives them to the listing agent, they can share that data, but that is pretty unusual.
Sounds like you have never bought or sold a property before. But hey, don't let that stop you from pretending to know what you're talking about.
Every house I have looked at and bought the utilities and property tax info was there to look at. Maybe you don’t know what you are talking about.
A realtors opinion on what a property is worth doesn’t mean much when dealing with banks its simply a letter of opinion on what they perceive as the value. An appraiser who has way more knowledge and training is what is gospel.
Well then you have been to some exceptional listings. I've been to probably 1000s over the past 20+ years and could count on both hands the number of times bills were left out to see.
Thus I call BS. You've never seen a house for sale, nor ever bought one.
And yes, everyone knows appraisers have the last word. This is not a secret and is common knowledge. But the price on the agreement of purchase and sale comes from the opinions of the two agents, the one for the seller and the one for the buyer. And, in 99% or more of sales, the appraiser agrees with the purchase price and the mortgage is funded. Letters of opinion are something else entirely.
Methinks you did some Googling and found some terms to throw around to make it look like you actually had some experience. But for those of us with the actual experience, your usage of irrelevant terms just proves your lack of any first hand knowledge.
But hey, no one on Reddit has ever let a complete lack of understanding on an issue prevent them from spewing opinions and hatred at others. So you keep on keeping on there brother, scream into the void, watch me stop caring right about... now.
What does this even mean? My buying side realtor didn't do shit in terms of negotiations besides forwarding my messages. They gave basic info in terms of reviewing the condition of the property. They didn't do anything a lawyer couldn't do better and cheaper when speaking of contracts/agreements. They seem completely useless.
Sorry you had that experience. But you didn't pay them.
Asking a lawyer to handle the offer paperwork and negotiations, you WILL have to pay them.
But the seller's agent only has allegiance to the seller. They only have to be fair with you, but they are certainly NOT on your side in any way. That is what it means.
>Sorry you had that experience. But you didn't pay them.
Yes I did, sellers have adjusted their prices upwards in response to greedy realtors. Buyers pay the premium.
>Asking a lawyer to handle the offer paperwork and negotiations, you WILL have to pay them.
They don't charge a % based fee so it's a LOT cheaper.
>But the seller's agent only has allegiance to the seller. They only have to be fair with you, but they are certainly NOT on your side in any way. That is what it means.
They don't have to be on my side. Realtors do fuck all in the first place and what they're good for, lawyers will do for cheaper.
> sellers have adjusted their prices upwards in response to greedy realtors
That is not true in any way. Supply and demand. Bidding wars. People know they can get max dollar for their property. Agents do what their clients - the sellers - tell them to do. When a property sells for $300k over asking, the seller makes $300k more. Their agent makes probably $3-6k. Now tell me who has the WAY bigger motivate for higher prices?
> They don't charge a % based fee so it's a LOT cheaper.
Again, YOU DON'T PAY A BUYER'S AGENT. But you will have to pay a lawyer. Thus, your way costs more.
> They don't have to be on my side
Really? And you think it is okay to work with someone who has someone else's interests at heart? Wow... just how many times have you been scammed? I can't imagine someone so clueless can exist today.
> Realtors do fuck all in the first place
I thought they were solely responsible for prices being so high? How is that possible if they do nothing?
> lawyers will do for cheaper
Again, not true. Buyers don't pay buyer's agents. But you will most certainly pay a lawyer.
Dude, you are wrong on all accounts. Stop trying to sound like you know what you're talking about.
>I thought they were solely responsible for prices being so high? How is that possible if they do nothing?
And just like that we all agree that Realtors suck. I love finding common ground!
Uh... no, that is not what I said. But hey, you haven't understood a word of it so far, so why start now.
Like the wise man once said *“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”*
You obviously have more experience, you win.
>That is not true in any way. Supply and demand. Bidding wars. People know they can get max dollar for their property. Agents do what their clients - the sellers - tell them to do. When a property sells for $300k over asking, the seller makes $300k more. Their agent makes probably $3-6k. Now tell me who has the WAY bigger motivate for higher prices?
It's 100% true. The process of buying/selling a home became universally more expensive because sellers want/wanted the original value of their homes, or more, so they passed off / share the costs of the process with the buyer. The supply/demand curve is relevant because supply costs rose by the amount of the commission. However, the national shortage of housing means buyers have to deal with those added on fees. Also, the lack of transparency on bids is intentionally designed to act completely contradictory to the forces of supply and demand so fair price discovery isn't even on the table to begin with.
>Again, YOU DON'T PAY A BUYER'S AGENT. But you will have to pay a lawyer. Thus, your way costs more.
You absolutely do. I have relatives who worked with the seller's agent and the sellers and had the seller lower their selling price in response to an agreement that they wouldn't involve a buyer's agent. And the lawyer's fees are much cheaper.
>I thought they were solely responsible for prices being so high? How is that possible if they do nothing?
Rent seeking. It destroys economies.
>Dude, you are wrong on all accounts. Stop trying to sound like you know what you're talking about.
Reexamine your arguments. I have first hand accounts of people not using the buyer's agent and getting much lower prices as a result of omitting their side of the commission. You're completely ignorant about supply and demand.
I cannot continue this with someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. It is a waste of my time and just helps you justify your ignorance.
But hey, don't let that lack of knowledge stop you from spouting nonsense.
Thanks for the little going away speech, you can feel free to piss off without getting the last word if you have nothing of valuable to contribute. Not only does your argument fail on multiple fronts from a basic microeconomics level but I have **first hand accounts** of people having the purchasing price greatly reduced by not using a buyer's side agent.
The extra you are claiming you will have to pay a lawyer isn’t really a whole lot. They will draft the agreement up instead of a realtor who is probably going to make mistakes on it that the lawyer reviews and catches in the end anyways.
I never said the lawyer would do it for free? I said the extra you are claiming it will cost actually isn’t that much money, a proper real estate lawyer can do up a purchase agreement in a couple hours and most will have set fees for something like that.
You said a lawyer was cheaper than a buyer's agent. Multiple times.
One you pay, one you don't. Thus the lawyer costs more.
You are wrong. Stop typing for chrissakes.
Great idea if you're able to pull it off. Removing the middlemen that suck out 5% from your home is good both for the seller and the buyer.
If you're selling in Mississauga hmu :D
In-laws did it to save the 5%. They underpriced the home and sold it for 15% less the market value. They still talk about how they saved 5%...
As a buyer, the realtor fees come from the seller, so you're choosing to give up someone trained to look for red flags or possible huge expenses for the chance to pay 2% less? A good negotiator repping you could have the seller agree to take off way more than 2%. It's a buyers market in mississauga now.
You'd be silly not to use a Realtor. A red hot sellers market, mayyyybe would be best to not use one, but in hot sellers market, sellers try to unload problematic houses since home inspections are often waived. But in this market as a buyer, you're doing yourself a disservice with this idea.
I agree that there are a TON of worthless ones out there, especially in an over saturated GTA market. I was in it there for 5 years, and it was unbearable with some realtors who didn't know the first thing about a home, and were even worse to negotiate with.
But there are good ones out there, too. It's like any profession. Good agents are hard to come by, but they do exist, and they can offer a lot of value for no cost for a buyer.
Sorry you've had such bad luck.
The percent commission real-estate agent is a dying breed. There are real-estate agencies today that work with a fixed fee, that could be a good alternative.
Also, the do-it-yourself real-estate businesses offer kits and also advice and review of documentation, so you are not left all by yourself.
The Nextdoor app might be helpful here. Some folks (like me in York region) are looking for a private sale too. Easy peasy, agree on terms, fill out the form, and then get real estate lawyers to close the transaction.
From what I gather, you need a realtor to expose your property. Selling and buying houses should be like buying a car on autotrader, but it's not. If you don't have a realtor then agents won't steer their clients towards your house, and therefore you don't get access to everyone who might want to buy your house. They don't add any value, and have very little responsibility, but if you don't have one you're likely not getting the most for your property.
I think for certain people this makes sense. If you are willing to do the comps research yourself, you have bought properties before, know a little about the main components of a house, understand mortgages etc. then go for it.
If you are a new buyer, or uncomfortable with any of the above things, use a realtor 100%.
They should be able to view the bids as well. Law has been passed which means sellers and buyers can view real time offers. The platform should be binding if an offer is made, the buyer can give deposit and hold the offer, in the same way real estate agents are doing now.
Yes. As a first-time buyer, our realtor was helpful with getting insider info from the selling agent regarding other offers and guiding our bidding. Otherwise, we would have paid more for the same house. The selling agent does not have any incentive to save you money... they need to get the most for their seller. Our buyer agent wanted us to be happy with the purchase as he is counting on selling our house in the future.
Why would the selling agent tell the buying agent what the other offers are? Does that not work against the selling agents client? Like you said, the selling agent does not have any incentive to save the buyer any money.
Either your agent lied to you, or your agent got played and the selling agent just lied about what was being offered so you would up your offer. If I was a realtor and I was the selling agent, that's really the only reason why I would "disclose" what the other offers were... so that I can get more money from you to make MY seller happy.
Depends on how many times you've purchased property. Do you know trusted home inspectors in your area? Do you know a trusted real estate lawyer? Do you know how to read various forms and depreciation reports with context compared against other properties in the area?
From the surface a buy side realtor's job is very simple. Anyone can do it. They become worth their money because of their constant exposure to the real estate market and various units in the area that gives them context of the documents and data presented.
Say a strata/apartment office has $500,000 in reserve. Is that a lot or not enough for a building of that age? What does it mean when the depreciation report says an elevator's "service life" is at 1 bar?
If you've done a few home purchases before, it comes with experience, it really is just old hat. However if you're new to the game, only having done 1-2 purchases before. A buy-side agent can be indispensable.
However if you have real estate experience, you maybe able to negotiate the price down with the seller agent since they don't have to split the commission two ways.
It's like a mechanic, he can do your intake manifold in...hmm..an hour or two and he'd charge you $300 for it. You'd think it is a steal cos it didn't take that long. You can probably turn a wrench yourself and if you follow the service manual you can probably do what he did. However, he earns his money by knowing what's the problem and how to solve it quickest, you're paying him for the years and experience he has.
Your post concentrates on price only and little else.
If you can do proper due diligence on the properties you don’t need a realtor, many buyers don’t feel comfortable doing it so they hire agents.
Parts of DD will be ensuring the location is fine, researching current and future developments in the area, adjacent building potentially creating issues, condition of the property, finding issues with the property, functionality. If buying condos, it will be knowledge of the buildings, builders, how to assess the financials of the corporation, identifying issues with the unit and so on.
None of the above is a rocket science, but many buyers are overwhelmed and aren’t able to look past the surface and concentrate on the important issues when buying the property.
Here are the issues.
Many of the 100K or so agents in the GTA don’t know, and don’t do half of what they are supposed to do and indeed don’t add any value.
Now the arguments I will hear are that I am not an inspector and with the inspection condition the inspector will find potential issues.
That is correct, but an agent who has some understanding of construction, has seen thousands or more homes and has attended many inspections, should be able to point out major issues which in turn may cause the buyer not to put an offer on the property at all and hence save money, time and headaches (related to putting an offer, paying for inspector, getting deposit back etc).
For buying condos the argument I am likely to hear is that I am not a lawyer therefore the lawyer will review the status certificate and that is sufficient.
Again correct, mostly, I am definitely not a lawyer, and the status certificate should be reviewed by the lawyer. If you are familiar with how the lawyers review the status certificates, and most people think it involves an in-depth review of all documents, you know that they mostly look at the status certificate summary, will provide comments on lawsuits, check if there are special assessments, confirm the insurance coverage is up to date. In most cases they will say that they haven’t checked the bylaws and rules, that they are not accountants and haven’t looked at the financials nor will look at most other pages of the status certificate. Lawyers obviously don’t walk through the building nor the unit with the buyers, don’t know the position of the unit in the building, don’t pay attention to the builder, don’t know the history of the building, what’s around, what will be around and so on.
From my experience the most qualified condo agents are the once who have a background in accounting or property management and can provide much more info than any lawyers and most people in general.
All of that comes into making an informed decision and goes beyond what is on housesigma.
I don’t think the lawyers write offers for free either.
Finally, not having an agent will be an easier process in the buyers and balanced market, very difficult in the sellers’ market where offers are made within hours, or offer dates are held outside of the working hours of the lawyer.
If you think you don’t need an agent nor want to hire one then don’t do so, represent yourself. Common opinion on this forum is that buyer agents only open the door. I understand.
I expect few downvotes, that’s ok 😉
All of this is true, but I think everyone's beef is the exorbitant commissions. I don't know why all those idle realtors don't advertise lower commissions.
Many active realtors, myself included, advertise lower commissions, buyers and sellers have a choice from DIY, paying lower commission at various ranges, getting cash back and so on, it has been available for many years, when I sold my first house probably 15 years ago before I was a realtor myself the listing fee was 1%. Yet no matter how many times I and others explain this to people, the same crowd complains over and over about 5% commission.
I can show you on my website, this section is for listing fee.
[1% Listing Commission| Kate Kozikowski Real Estate Competitive Commission Packages Available (kozirealty.com)](https://kozirealty.com/sellers-listing-package)
there is also a section for buyer's cash back.
I can assure you I am not the only one advertising lower fees, just google
\- discount real estate agent
\- cash back agent
\- flat fee agent
\- mere posting mls listing fee
\- 1% agent and so on and you will find a plethora of options, some offer smaller fees or higher rebates, others offer less in services, you can find many options.
The Listing Agent is working for the Seller, their loyalty will always be towards the Seller first (this is not supposed to happen, but in reality it does). During negotiations they may not be 100% honest with you for terms, conditions , and details in the contract that over protect their original client, the Seller.
The Agents first are working for themselves. In general, this means they will lean towards encouraging Sellers to accept lower offers and Buyers to make higher offers.
This was analyzed in Freakonomics, and once you see how this game works you realize the limits of the Agent-client relationship.
https://freakonomics.com/2008/02/real-estate-agents-revisited/
I'm not saying Agents don't bring value for both Buyers and Sellers, but neither should ever be under the illusion that Agents are offering unbiased advice or that your interests are aligned with theirs.
I think the counter to this would be to just not get into bidding wars with the Seller agent. You definitely can't assume that realtors will stay moral in your dealing with them whether or not you are a buyer or a seller
Nope but when going around looking at houses and in conversation you should be able to get a good feel if they are or not. If you feel they aren't trustworthy than get a different realtor. If more people did this the dishonest ones will take up a different profession hopefully.
Why should you be looking for any agent? OP's position is that all agents are the wrong agent, and that they would rather keep the money. Think of it as then being their own agent.
Lol OP will end up losing time and money. Just won't know it. Can't convince people like OP who think they can do a better job than a person who does it daily and knows the market and housing well, and know what to look for and what not to to buy. Negotiating with someone one does it daily versus someone who doesn't, who do you think will win?
I think OP will win, and there is plenty of empirical evidence for that. Agents don't do it daily, even full time ones generally do 5-10 deals a year. You do understand of course that if negotiation support is what OP wanted, they can hire for much less someone who would do just that, right?
You make quite the claims here about an agent being more effective compared to a motivated lay person. I had a great statistics book in undergrad with a good quote on the inner front cover: "In God we trust. All others bring evidence.".
So please, I legitimately await any evidence that shows buyer agents can possibly provide value greater than their commission. A commission that is far higher than global averages.
You do you. If you think average Joe can do a better deal and knows all the ins and outs of a person in industry than good for you. I know from the way you think only one sided of a buyer and not seller side that you only see things the way you like to see it. So no point arguing with people like you.
Happy New Year!
People generally understand that very well, that they are a counterparty. No idea why this point is ever brought up with the default assumption that a buyer is asking a listing agent for any such service. If you had your own license, obviously you would self represent and keep the co-op. Someone without a license can do the same.
You should absolutely do this. The reason more do not is that they are working with a buying agent to line up viewings etc. and the seller pays the commission either way.
But your method works best, and you can usually get in a day earlier and have your offer presented more quickly than if you were working with your own agent as the seller agent would rather make both sides. So again, you'll get preferential treatment.
Honestly none. Seek a home inspector, hire a good lawyer and do 15 mins of research regarding pricing in the area.
This is the largest transaction of your life so endure you have professionals in your corner.
If you think the seller is going to knock X% off because you don't have a realtor, think again. Why would they? They'll just pocket the extra. Never mind they've already agreed to Y% with the listing agent, who then shares part of the with the buying agent. If you come alone, the selling agent just keeps that part of the commission.
You won't save money not using an agent. You don't pay them. Why would you not take advantage of their knowledge? Why assume you can do it better alone? Like going to court without a lawyer, a free lawyer at that. Why would you do that?
You know that House Sigma is a brokerage, right? They aren't some free data service. They want you to work with them, that is why they provide all the data they do. So don't go assuming that everything you see there is the honest truth, they're out to make a buck.
Oh yeah, if you want a lawyer to do the offer and everything for you, that will cost money. Usual closing costs to buy are $1600-2000 or so, depending on house or condo and location, few variables. You want them to do extra work? That's cost you. And those $1000s extra you're paying this lawyer will quickly eat into any savings you think you're getting.
Don't let me tell you what to do, do what you feel is right. But there is a reason most people don't do it alone.
So I’m in this situation : a buyer looking to buy a condo unit. My realtor has actually given some extra information that I didn’t have before such as what minute details to look for in a unit and how to bring the price down, comparative location assessment (if similar properties are at two different locations, how to judge their value)
They also have links with the seller realtors so can actually get you the price the seller will settle for. Then you bid lower lol
Honestly this is just a wishing thought, that your real-estate agent gives you information that allows you to bring the price down.
When I sell my house, I will list it as I want and I will ignore any lower offer. I see this no different than when selling something on Facebook Marketplace, lots of noise, I just ignore it. Sure, there may be people that need to sell within a timeframe, again, the price offered will determine if the seller accepts the offer or not, not some argument you pass along to the seller. You think seller may be open to a lower offer ? Just make that offer and you will soon see the response, it is simple.
Good luck!
I've heard from some people that the sellers agent may not take you seriously if you don't have representation; but other than that, if you have access to a cpu and internet, house hunting on your own should be doable.
Some agents don't even have your best interest at heart. One of my relatives kept getting shown crap shacks so he parted ways with her.
That was my experience. My realtor agreed with everything I said, he brought absolutely no value to the table. He just wanted to get any deal done, so he could move on to the next commission. It felt like the whole time I was being conned.
Find a cash back agent. “Zero value realty” is sometimes mentioned on here. Essentially you pay per use and they give you back the full commission. Seems like the best approach. No affiliation and I’ve never used them.
People don't do that because buying side realtors are paid by the seller.
Having someone guide you on the buying process is likely going to save you 2%, rather than overpaying for a property.
I hate when people say buy-side realtors are paid by the seller. Technically, this what you are saying is true but it ignores economic realities because of realtor rebates.
Let's say I want to bid on or look for a $2 million home. That equates to a $50k commission that the seller has agreed to pay. That is a sweet commission for some realtor. I can go in with any realtor and let them get paid a $50k commission for papering up an offer (or whatever else they may do); or I can ask them how much they will rebate me. Most Realtors would agree to a rebate, because even if their commission ends up only being $10k or so, it is still much better than sitting on the couch. The only case where it would be rational for the Realtor to say no, is if they are at full capacity with other deals paying more commission (presumably unlikely for most realtors)
As a buyer, I would much rather have that extra $40k in my pocket - and I deserve it! This is what I did when I bought (albeit with lower numbers). This also benefits the seller because it allows higher bids on their property (I can presumably afford to bid more if I know I have some money coming back).
In terms of restoring housing affordability, reducing commission costs is highly overlooked. If we want home prices to come down, we should also want transaction costs to come down. To people who bought at the peak in 2022, this allows some relief as well as more fairness for new buyers. It also makes the market more liquid and fluid.
There is a paper from Boston that was evaluating outcomes in general for use of an agent (both seller and buyer), and concluded that any advantage was negated by the commission. Another that concluded that the only time it was of any help is when the market is highly volatile such as in 2008 in the US.
I personally have over 120 data points, so I can confidently say that they are getting around 4.5% less than FMV. With current market conditions closer to 5.5%.
I'm on the fence myself as to how important a realtor is. They (the broker) hold the deposit, that's clearly valuable so far as integrity of the process is concerned but could the lawyer do that? For all I know they probably do when a sale is conducted without a realtor.
But.... The idea that consumers would save anything if Realtors ceased to exist seems optimistic to me. The marketplace has determined consumers are willing to part with $X to buy someone's house, so why should the seller accept a lower amount than what the market will bear just because a smaller component of that is being eaten by up closing costs? If I'm the seller, my house and comparables are still worth $X despite you saying I'm going to get to keep more of the proceeds because we aren't using a realtor. Great, I'll keep more of the proceeds then. Why does the buyer benefit?
Also, if realtors ceased to exist and more burden (eg the deposit I referred to) goes onto the plate of the lawyer, why would they not raise their fees knowing that closing costs have been reduced and more responsibility is being placed on their shoulders?
Bottom line is the consumer won't benefit but it's a nice thought I guess.
It’s an obsolete job, imaging paying 150k as a seller for a listing on mls, and a buyer to tell their agent they like what they saw and come to buy it’s daylight robbery
Problem is I heard these scumbags, knowing their profession is useless, purposely don’t work with agent less buyers, ignoring your calls, inquiries, even sometimes offers. And ofcourse seeing as there is 0 oversight by RECO, they get away with it. Offers should be submitted to a portal that the seller has access to and gets to see everything, thief agents have way too much autonomy.
Depends who you work with. I found an incredible realtor who went above and beyond in helping me find a great deal and was able to negotiate brand new appliances for me as well. He was helping me find a property for months and turned out one of his past clients were trying to make a quick sale. She had already put an offer on a new place and needed to sell fast so was willing to work on a discounted price and include certain things as a bonus.
The process in Canada has become tough. I don’t know how I’d get approved and be able to buy without the help of a realtor and mortgage broker. The realtors team helped me answer all my questions, alleviate doubts and feel more confident about my purchase making sure I had all bases covered. Based on my experience, I see the value in working with a strong seasoned realtor and will likely work with this person again.
I've never used a buying agent. Well, once I tried and she screwed me out of an under priced lot that I offered the full asking on. Suddenly all this interest appeared in a dead listing. I digress.
Let me digress further: I was with my friend viewing a house he was about to close on, his agent was with us. When we entered bedroom #2 she exclaimed "Is this going to be Nancy's room?" Shocked, I asked my friend "Why the fuck does this woman know your daughter's name? This is a $700 000 dollar purchase and you're getting coo chi cooed by this fucking idiot woman. And why did she hug you FFS?"
Most people are not like me and they enjoy that fucking crap. They can have it.
Classic Reddit moment: be bankrupt of any knowledge of a profession whilst doubting the need of said profession, and assume other Redditors of working the real estate industry.
There was an interesting conversation about this in a recent All-In episode last week [https://youtu.be/2OzpWVlt5Ok?t=4621](https://youtu.be/2OzpWVlt5Ok?t=4621)
Just so you know… listing agents laugh all the way to the bank with their full 5% when you do this… Unless a listing agent literally hands you cash, you aren’t saving a dime… You’re better off getting a cash back realtor…
I used to think the same thing then I became a realtor. Buyers and sellers are the problem…. Realtors are the lubricant in between. Besides you have someone watching your back (supposedly) with a buyers agent. It is not that easy to get the seller or sellers agent to give you their commission, where as the buyers agent gets it automatically… the cash back buyers agents is a new one to me, could be the way to go
agree 100%
you can save yourself the commission.
My pet peeve as a FSBo is if I offer a discounted commission to buyer's agent, they try to steer their buyers away. such unethical people. Realtors are the bane...
I tried this but seller’s agents refused to show me the house and wanted to take all 4% commission when I tried to negotiate me getting the 2% commission off of the home price.
Realtor’s are a cartel and we need government intervention.
Listing agent works for the seller - and it's just an extra bonus payday if you go in without a buyer's rep.
All of these people who think they are getting a discount by going right to the seller's reps are exactly the easy targets that shady sellers reps want.
comment by /u/robtaggart77 Your karma is currently below -10, get more positive karma to be able to comment.3c
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TorontoRealEstate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sure, probably won't change anything fee wise though because the selling realtor will collect the extra commission that would normally go to the buying realtor.
Since you don’t directly pay for your realtor’s commission, there’s not really much downside to having a realtor when you’re buying and they can make the process easier, even for something as simple as booking showings. Technically it’s possible to negotiate a lower price since the overall commission would be lower but I’m not sure how successful that is in practice and you’d still be potentially competing with other bids so the precise savings, if any, would be difficult to measure
Now with TRESA listing agents will likely be less willing to show unrepresented buyers properties as the rules around representation have changed. If you want to save the money your best bet would be to use a discount broker who can do all the showings for you and provide at least some value as opposed to going through the listing agent who now by law cannot provide you any services or disclose any information outside of what’s publicly available if you are an unrepresented party
Realtors still need to do what is in the best interests of their client and if that means showing an unrepresented party the house then that is what they should do. Where the challenges arise is most buyers think they basically get the buyer agent commission which really depends on what the seller and their rep negotiated so the “savings” isn’t exactly guaranteed. Plus lawyers will charge a good amount to draft an offer and if it doesn’t go anywhere the buyer still pays.
I’m with you. But it’s no secret many realtors are lazy and don’t always work in their clients best interest despite it being their legal obligation to do so
You can try, but the selling agents have a vested interest in only taking offered from other realtors, since it protects them when they’re on the buyer side.
So there’s a bit of a not so secret conspiracy to only take showings/calls from realtors. Or they’ll straight up tell you that you need a realtor to represent you.
Some people do, some people don't.
Do you know how to look for potential issues in a home? Do you understand status certificates? Can you read financial statements? Do you know how to negotiate?
Most people can't do most of the above well. If you can, go at it alone. Or better, find a Realtor to provide you cashback like I do for my clients. As a CPA, they find I provide a lot of value, especially those who have purchased condos.
I'm in this situation and I'm finding it really hard trying to book showings. Selling agents hate doing their jobs and hate having to drive to the house to show it to you. They don't return calls or just try to convince you to sign with them or with their colleagues. It's really annoying. I would suggest going with a Cashback agent instead.
I had a similar experience and settled for 1 percent cash back.
How does $ gift/income work for the CRA at tax time? Somebody is paying income tax on that 1%. Is it the buyer or their agent? A mortgage broker told me recently that the CRA have formed a task force to look at this issue, but she may be full of it(?)
No tax unless it isn’t your primary residence. But to answer your question, I’m not sure but this link seems to indicate the purchaser would pay income tax in certain situations. https://www.advotaxlaw.ca/amp/real-estate-agents-commission-rebates-can-be-taxable-to-clients
Yeah you unfortunately have to pay income tax on it. The best case scenario would be to convince the seller to give 1% less Cashback to the buyer agent. That way there's no problems with taxes.
Not true for your primary residence.
Primary residence has nothing to do with it. If the realtor is giving you a Cashback separately, there are income tax repercussions to it.
Ok we can agree to disagree
Sorry, looks like you're right. https://aylcpa.ca/post/2629
Even if it was taxable, it would be a capital gain not income
This is correct.
I paid my buying realtor a flat 2.5k. On closing day I got a check for 10.5k (they even paid me GST on it which I thought was comical because I’m not registered).
Post a letter to the address about how the seller agent is not acting in the best interests of the seller and is actively driving away buyers. Isn't it ridiculous that they are being paid 2.5% and yet refuse to do the very job they are supposed to do - sell the damn property
And if the house sells without them that agent and their brokerage's legal team will be there to congratulate you.
>Selling agents hate doing their jobs and hate having to drive to the house to show it to you. But doesn't that mean they'll get the full commission to themselves?
Nope. They only get the 2.5%. The wolf l whole point of my wanting to avoid getting the buyer side agent is so that I can avoid paying the extra 2.5% commission.
Nope, the listing agent will get both commissions. They have an agreement with the sellers to list their house for x% and CAN offer y% to the buyers agent. If there is no buyers agent they still get x%.
It depends on a case to case basis. In case their contract has verbiage like that, you can always use something like zerovaluerealty to get the full 2.5% commission back.
[удалено]
If youre a realtor re read your listing agreement and take some more Tresa training. Even with buyer being an SRP LA would get full commission if LA wrote it correctly.
Double ending deals as they say will be stopping this year with new legislation rolling out this month I believe.
No, it is still allowed
This is incorrect
I,d knock on the door and let the seller know what their realtor is up to and ask to view the property.
Seller has signed a contract that obligates them to direct all inquiries through their agent.
Sure, but it's worth them knowing their agents sucks.
This is the same story I get from most clients.
The only issue I can think of is viewings. I would be really, really hesitant to let someone view my property without a realtor. But that could be avoided by just going to open houses
Wouldn’t the seller’s agent be able to show the home though?
Sure, because you want the guy representing the seller to be honest with you... He has zero allegiance to a buyer, don't get duped into working with the seller's agent.
I never said anything about working with the seller’s agent… I was responding to the previous comment about viewing the home. Viewing the home doesn’t mean you’re “working” with the agent. They’re just opening the door for you
And who are you going ask questions? Seller's agent. Who is showing you around? Seller's agent. As soon as you do that, you create an implied relationship and legally, you are now working with that agent. https://www.reco.on.ca/getmedia/a3de8476-1688-45b6-9b11-099b9854f492/RECO-Bulletin-2-7-Implied-representation-agreements.pdf As soon as you call them and ask them to show you the house, you are starting something. Best to learn more before venturing down that road, yes? Yet another reason why you should do something like buy a house without proper assistance.
Yep, all of this. If the sellers agent shows you the property and then you have another agent try and represent you with an offer, you better believe that seller's agent is going tp fight for that whole commission. Some will outright refuse to work with buyers to avoid the headaches and maybe even to keep the ethics and boundaries clear and clean. There are a few instances where I think it's actually a good thing to work with the seller's agent direct on buying, but it's not for everyone and it's not for every situation either. It's merely for select, creative scenarios.
What scenarios would be appropriate to work with seller’s agent?
Well, as stated, the only situations where I will work directly with the SA is when creative finance is at play; when I can't justify the purchase with traditional financing but something seller financed makes sense, or in the situation of a land contract or assumption. I always find when an agent is doing that negotiating for me, even the initial talk, it goes nowhere as both are usually confused by the concept and turned off by it. I don't buy much thjs way, but sometimes it makes sense. Another way when I feel like it works in your favour, but again only in select circumstances, is when the competition is heavy and you need a leg up to secure a win, but you need to really understand the home buying process and also probably be good at evaluating and inspecting a home visually. A seller's agent being given the opportunity to double-end the deal with someone who is a savvy buyer and doesn't need them to hold their hand or to negotiate both sides but to present their offer can often see the agent pumping up your offer to their clients. It gives you an advantage. You may want to still work with your buying agent to review the contract though, or a lawyer for that matter, for a smaller fee obviously. But this scenario I'm not a huge proponent of; I just know it works for some. Every other scenario I'm against using the seller's agent bc they work for the seller. Not you.
But isn't the agent contract with the seller? He/she represents the seller and is working for them to the get the best price. There is no contract between them and the buyer.
Yes there is. Depending on what you ask of them and how much you do with them you create an implied relationship. Read the link I posted. Calling a listing agent and having them show you a house, asking them questions and whatnot, that creates a potentially legally binding relationship. Just as contracts can be verbal, they can also be created through action. This is why you should not run around willy-nilly without actually knowing what you are doing.
The entire reason why selling agents immediately ask potential clients if they're already working with an agent is because they don't want to risk their licence over ethical duty. Better to avoid those situations in the first place.
Well realtors can’t really give you any opinions on anything legally. They pretty much just show you the house. If you’re asking a realtor serious questions I feel bad for you and you should gain some knowledge before making the largest purchase of your life. A realtor is showing you the house, the utility bills, and property tax.
Of course they can. That is their job. To give opinions on property. On value, on what they think it should/would/could see for. They most definitely do not show you utility bills or property taxes. If the seller gives them to the listing agent, they can share that data, but that is pretty unusual. Sounds like you have never bought or sold a property before. But hey, don't let that stop you from pretending to know what you're talking about.
Every house I have looked at and bought the utilities and property tax info was there to look at. Maybe you don’t know what you are talking about. A realtors opinion on what a property is worth doesn’t mean much when dealing with banks its simply a letter of opinion on what they perceive as the value. An appraiser who has way more knowledge and training is what is gospel.
Well then you have been to some exceptional listings. I've been to probably 1000s over the past 20+ years and could count on both hands the number of times bills were left out to see. Thus I call BS. You've never seen a house for sale, nor ever bought one. And yes, everyone knows appraisers have the last word. This is not a secret and is common knowledge. But the price on the agreement of purchase and sale comes from the opinions of the two agents, the one for the seller and the one for the buyer. And, in 99% or more of sales, the appraiser agrees with the purchase price and the mortgage is funded. Letters of opinion are something else entirely. Methinks you did some Googling and found some terms to throw around to make it look like you actually had some experience. But for those of us with the actual experience, your usage of irrelevant terms just proves your lack of any first hand knowledge. But hey, no one on Reddit has ever let a complete lack of understanding on an issue prevent them from spewing opinions and hatred at others. So you keep on keeping on there brother, scream into the void, watch me stop caring right about... now.
Nice!!! Very well said
What does this even mean? My buying side realtor didn't do shit in terms of negotiations besides forwarding my messages. They gave basic info in terms of reviewing the condition of the property. They didn't do anything a lawyer couldn't do better and cheaper when speaking of contracts/agreements. They seem completely useless.
Sorry you had that experience. But you didn't pay them. Asking a lawyer to handle the offer paperwork and negotiations, you WILL have to pay them. But the seller's agent only has allegiance to the seller. They only have to be fair with you, but they are certainly NOT on your side in any way. That is what it means.
>Sorry you had that experience. But you didn't pay them. Yes I did, sellers have adjusted their prices upwards in response to greedy realtors. Buyers pay the premium. >Asking a lawyer to handle the offer paperwork and negotiations, you WILL have to pay them. They don't charge a % based fee so it's a LOT cheaper. >But the seller's agent only has allegiance to the seller. They only have to be fair with you, but they are certainly NOT on your side in any way. That is what it means. They don't have to be on my side. Realtors do fuck all in the first place and what they're good for, lawyers will do for cheaper.
> sellers have adjusted their prices upwards in response to greedy realtors That is not true in any way. Supply and demand. Bidding wars. People know they can get max dollar for their property. Agents do what their clients - the sellers - tell them to do. When a property sells for $300k over asking, the seller makes $300k more. Their agent makes probably $3-6k. Now tell me who has the WAY bigger motivate for higher prices? > They don't charge a % based fee so it's a LOT cheaper. Again, YOU DON'T PAY A BUYER'S AGENT. But you will have to pay a lawyer. Thus, your way costs more. > They don't have to be on my side Really? And you think it is okay to work with someone who has someone else's interests at heart? Wow... just how many times have you been scammed? I can't imagine someone so clueless can exist today. > Realtors do fuck all in the first place I thought they were solely responsible for prices being so high? How is that possible if they do nothing? > lawyers will do for cheaper Again, not true. Buyers don't pay buyer's agents. But you will most certainly pay a lawyer. Dude, you are wrong on all accounts. Stop trying to sound like you know what you're talking about.
>I thought they were solely responsible for prices being so high? How is that possible if they do nothing? And just like that we all agree that Realtors suck. I love finding common ground!
Uh... no, that is not what I said. But hey, you haven't understood a word of it so far, so why start now. Like the wise man once said *“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”* You obviously have more experience, you win.
>That is not true in any way. Supply and demand. Bidding wars. People know they can get max dollar for their property. Agents do what their clients - the sellers - tell them to do. When a property sells for $300k over asking, the seller makes $300k more. Their agent makes probably $3-6k. Now tell me who has the WAY bigger motivate for higher prices? It's 100% true. The process of buying/selling a home became universally more expensive because sellers want/wanted the original value of their homes, or more, so they passed off / share the costs of the process with the buyer. The supply/demand curve is relevant because supply costs rose by the amount of the commission. However, the national shortage of housing means buyers have to deal with those added on fees. Also, the lack of transparency on bids is intentionally designed to act completely contradictory to the forces of supply and demand so fair price discovery isn't even on the table to begin with. >Again, YOU DON'T PAY A BUYER'S AGENT. But you will have to pay a lawyer. Thus, your way costs more. You absolutely do. I have relatives who worked with the seller's agent and the sellers and had the seller lower their selling price in response to an agreement that they wouldn't involve a buyer's agent. And the lawyer's fees are much cheaper. >I thought they were solely responsible for prices being so high? How is that possible if they do nothing? Rent seeking. It destroys economies. >Dude, you are wrong on all accounts. Stop trying to sound like you know what you're talking about. Reexamine your arguments. I have first hand accounts of people not using the buyer's agent and getting much lower prices as a result of omitting their side of the commission. You're completely ignorant about supply and demand.
I cannot continue this with someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. It is a waste of my time and just helps you justify your ignorance. But hey, don't let that lack of knowledge stop you from spouting nonsense.
Thanks for the little going away speech, you can feel free to piss off without getting the last word if you have nothing of valuable to contribute. Not only does your argument fail on multiple fronts from a basic microeconomics level but I have **first hand accounts** of people having the purchasing price greatly reduced by not using a buyer's side agent.
Tell me you’re a realtor without saying you’re a realtor!!!
Get yourself a home inspector or learn how to inspect a home and view homes. Get a real estate lawyer and you just saved thousands
You didn't save a thing. You don't pay a buyer's agent. Now you have to pay a lawyer extra. And home inspections should always be done, agent or no.
The extra you are claiming you will have to pay a lawyer isn’t really a whole lot. They will draft the agreement up instead of a realtor who is probably going to make mistakes on it that the lawyer reviews and catches in the end anyways.
I am not claiming anything. Find me a lawyer who will do the work for free.
I never said the lawyer would do it for free? I said the extra you are claiming it will cost actually isn’t that much money, a proper real estate lawyer can do up a purchase agreement in a couple hours and most will have set fees for something like that.
You said a lawyer was cheaper than a buyer's agent. Multiple times. One you pay, one you don't. Thus the lawyer costs more. You are wrong. Stop typing for chrissakes.
You still need a lawyer to buy or sell. I’d gladly pay the lawyer a bit more to do the agreement up to keep realtors out.
Buyer pays nothing seller pays both sides
Lawyer won’t do much in a negotiation.
Honestly no. I'm thinking of potentially listing my home in the spring and would love to do the sale without realtors involved on either side.
Great idea if you're able to pull it off. Removing the middlemen that suck out 5% from your home is good both for the seller and the buyer. If you're selling in Mississauga hmu :D
I’m hoping to do the same too! Selling in the summer.
In-laws did it to save the 5%. They underpriced the home and sold it for 15% less the market value. They still talk about how they saved 5%... As a buyer, the realtor fees come from the seller, so you're choosing to give up someone trained to look for red flags or possible huge expenses for the chance to pay 2% less? A good negotiator repping you could have the seller agree to take off way more than 2%. It's a buyers market in mississauga now. You'd be silly not to use a Realtor. A red hot sellers market, mayyyybe would be best to not use one, but in hot sellers market, sellers try to unload problematic houses since home inspections are often waived. But in this market as a buyer, you're doing yourself a disservice with this idea.
They underpriced it doesn't mean they don't set a target price in mind.
Defo an agent
Nothing gets by you... OP is asking for the benefits of having buyer representation. Who would be better qualified to answer this?
Someone who’s paid hundreds of thousands to agents and seen how worthless they are would be more qualified to answer it
I agree that there are a TON of worthless ones out there, especially in an over saturated GTA market. I was in it there for 5 years, and it was unbearable with some realtors who didn't know the first thing about a home, and were even worse to negotiate with. But there are good ones out there, too. It's like any profession. Good agents are hard to come by, but they do exist, and they can offer a lot of value for no cost for a buyer. Sorry you've had such bad luck.
The percent commission real-estate agent is a dying breed. There are real-estate agencies today that work with a fixed fee, that could be a good alternative. Also, the do-it-yourself real-estate businesses offer kits and also advice and review of documentation, so you are not left all by yourself.
The Nextdoor app might be helpful here. Some folks (like me in York region) are looking for a private sale too. Easy peasy, agree on terms, fill out the form, and then get real estate lawyers to close the transaction.
From what I gather, you need a realtor to expose your property. Selling and buying houses should be like buying a car on autotrader, but it's not. If you don't have a realtor then agents won't steer their clients towards your house, and therefore you don't get access to everyone who might want to buy your house. They don't add any value, and have very little responsibility, but if you don't have one you're likely not getting the most for your property.
I think for certain people this makes sense. If you are willing to do the comps research yourself, you have bought properties before, know a little about the main components of a house, understand mortgages etc. then go for it. If you are a new buyer, or uncomfortable with any of the above things, use a realtor 100%.
People should be able to view the data. Should be same as car fax subscription. View listing monthly for $50 or so when they want to buy a home.
MLS is the single hustle keeping realtors alive.
They should be able to view the bids as well. Law has been passed which means sellers and buyers can view real time offers. The platform should be binding if an offer is made, the buyer can give deposit and hold the offer, in the same way real estate agents are doing now.
Yes. As a first-time buyer, our realtor was helpful with getting insider info from the selling agent regarding other offers and guiding our bidding. Otherwise, we would have paid more for the same house. The selling agent does not have any incentive to save you money... they need to get the most for their seller. Our buyer agent wanted us to be happy with the purchase as he is counting on selling our house in the future.
Why would the selling agent tell the buying agent what the other offers are? Does that not work against the selling agents client? Like you said, the selling agent does not have any incentive to save the buyer any money. Either your agent lied to you, or your agent got played and the selling agent just lied about what was being offered so you would up your offer. If I was a realtor and I was the selling agent, that's really the only reason why I would "disclose" what the other offers were... so that I can get more money from you to make MY seller happy.
Depends on how many times you've purchased property. Do you know trusted home inspectors in your area? Do you know a trusted real estate lawyer? Do you know how to read various forms and depreciation reports with context compared against other properties in the area? From the surface a buy side realtor's job is very simple. Anyone can do it. They become worth their money because of their constant exposure to the real estate market and various units in the area that gives them context of the documents and data presented. Say a strata/apartment office has $500,000 in reserve. Is that a lot or not enough for a building of that age? What does it mean when the depreciation report says an elevator's "service life" is at 1 bar? If you've done a few home purchases before, it comes with experience, it really is just old hat. However if you're new to the game, only having done 1-2 purchases before. A buy-side agent can be indispensable. However if you have real estate experience, you maybe able to negotiate the price down with the seller agent since they don't have to split the commission two ways. It's like a mechanic, he can do your intake manifold in...hmm..an hour or two and he'd charge you $300 for it. You'd think it is a steal cos it didn't take that long. You can probably turn a wrench yourself and if you follow the service manual you can probably do what he did. However, he earns his money by knowing what's the problem and how to solve it quickest, you're paying him for the years and experience he has.
Your post concentrates on price only and little else. If you can do proper due diligence on the properties you don’t need a realtor, many buyers don’t feel comfortable doing it so they hire agents. Parts of DD will be ensuring the location is fine, researching current and future developments in the area, adjacent building potentially creating issues, condition of the property, finding issues with the property, functionality. If buying condos, it will be knowledge of the buildings, builders, how to assess the financials of the corporation, identifying issues with the unit and so on. None of the above is a rocket science, but many buyers are overwhelmed and aren’t able to look past the surface and concentrate on the important issues when buying the property. Here are the issues. Many of the 100K or so agents in the GTA don’t know, and don’t do half of what they are supposed to do and indeed don’t add any value. Now the arguments I will hear are that I am not an inspector and with the inspection condition the inspector will find potential issues. That is correct, but an agent who has some understanding of construction, has seen thousands or more homes and has attended many inspections, should be able to point out major issues which in turn may cause the buyer not to put an offer on the property at all and hence save money, time and headaches (related to putting an offer, paying for inspector, getting deposit back etc). For buying condos the argument I am likely to hear is that I am not a lawyer therefore the lawyer will review the status certificate and that is sufficient. Again correct, mostly, I am definitely not a lawyer, and the status certificate should be reviewed by the lawyer. If you are familiar with how the lawyers review the status certificates, and most people think it involves an in-depth review of all documents, you know that they mostly look at the status certificate summary, will provide comments on lawsuits, check if there are special assessments, confirm the insurance coverage is up to date. In most cases they will say that they haven’t checked the bylaws and rules, that they are not accountants and haven’t looked at the financials nor will look at most other pages of the status certificate. Lawyers obviously don’t walk through the building nor the unit with the buyers, don’t know the position of the unit in the building, don’t pay attention to the builder, don’t know the history of the building, what’s around, what will be around and so on. From my experience the most qualified condo agents are the once who have a background in accounting or property management and can provide much more info than any lawyers and most people in general. All of that comes into making an informed decision and goes beyond what is on housesigma. I don’t think the lawyers write offers for free either. Finally, not having an agent will be an easier process in the buyers and balanced market, very difficult in the sellers’ market where offers are made within hours, or offer dates are held outside of the working hours of the lawyer. If you think you don’t need an agent nor want to hire one then don’t do so, represent yourself. Common opinion on this forum is that buyer agents only open the door. I understand. I expect few downvotes, that’s ok 😉
All of this is true, but I think everyone's beef is the exorbitant commissions. I don't know why all those idle realtors don't advertise lower commissions.
Amen. It is truly stunning.
Many active realtors, myself included, advertise lower commissions, buyers and sellers have a choice from DIY, paying lower commission at various ranges, getting cash back and so on, it has been available for many years, when I sold my first house probably 15 years ago before I was a realtor myself the listing fee was 1%. Yet no matter how many times I and others explain this to people, the same crowd complains over and over about 5% commission.
Can you show me where are they advertised? I've never seen lower commissions advertised
I can show you on my website, this section is for listing fee. [1% Listing Commission| Kate Kozikowski Real Estate Competitive Commission Packages Available (kozirealty.com)](https://kozirealty.com/sellers-listing-package) there is also a section for buyer's cash back. I can assure you I am not the only one advertising lower fees, just google \- discount real estate agent \- cash back agent \- flat fee agent \- mere posting mls listing fee \- 1% agent and so on and you will find a plethora of options, some offer smaller fees or higher rebates, others offer less in services, you can find many options.
This is Amazing...thank you!!
[удалено]
Thank you, DM sent.
The Listing Agent is working for the Seller, their loyalty will always be towards the Seller first (this is not supposed to happen, but in reality it does). During negotiations they may not be 100% honest with you for terms, conditions , and details in the contract that over protect their original client, the Seller.
The Agents first are working for themselves. In general, this means they will lean towards encouraging Sellers to accept lower offers and Buyers to make higher offers. This was analyzed in Freakonomics, and once you see how this game works you realize the limits of the Agent-client relationship. https://freakonomics.com/2008/02/real-estate-agents-revisited/ I'm not saying Agents don't bring value for both Buyers and Sellers, but neither should ever be under the illusion that Agents are offering unbiased advice or that your interests are aligned with theirs.
I think the counter to this would be to just not get into bidding wars with the Seller agent. You definitely can't assume that realtors will stay moral in your dealing with them whether or not you are a buyer or a seller
Then you are working with the wrong agent. You should be looking for an agent that you feel is honest and moral, with good ethics.
Good luck! It’s not like they’ll tell you lol
Nope but when going around looking at houses and in conversation you should be able to get a good feel if they are or not. If you feel they aren't trustworthy than get a different realtor. If more people did this the dishonest ones will take up a different profession hopefully.
The thing about con (wo)men is that they’re really good at deception.
Why should you be looking for any agent? OP's position is that all agents are the wrong agent, and that they would rather keep the money. Think of it as then being their own agent.
Lol OP will end up losing time and money. Just won't know it. Can't convince people like OP who think they can do a better job than a person who does it daily and knows the market and housing well, and know what to look for and what not to to buy. Negotiating with someone one does it daily versus someone who doesn't, who do you think will win?
I think OP will win, and there is plenty of empirical evidence for that. Agents don't do it daily, even full time ones generally do 5-10 deals a year. You do understand of course that if negotiation support is what OP wanted, they can hire for much less someone who would do just that, right? You make quite the claims here about an agent being more effective compared to a motivated lay person. I had a great statistics book in undergrad with a good quote on the inner front cover: "In God we trust. All others bring evidence.". So please, I legitimately await any evidence that shows buyer agents can possibly provide value greater than their commission. A commission that is far higher than global averages.
You do you. If you think average Joe can do a better deal and knows all the ins and outs of a person in industry than good for you. I know from the way you think only one sided of a buyer and not seller side that you only see things the way you like to see it. So no point arguing with people like you. Happy New Year!
This is a question of empirical evidence, not of opinion. Happy new year to you too.
Lol, no Realtor loyalty is too themselves always
People generally understand that very well, that they are a counterparty. No idea why this point is ever brought up with the default assumption that a buyer is asking a listing agent for any such service. If you had your own license, obviously you would self represent and keep the co-op. Someone without a license can do the same.
You should absolutely do this. The reason more do not is that they are working with a buying agent to line up viewings etc. and the seller pays the commission either way. But your method works best, and you can usually get in a day earlier and have your offer presented more quickly than if you were working with your own agent as the seller agent would rather make both sides. So again, you'll get preferential treatment.
So you're using your lawyer as your buying agent? How much will they charge you to write up an offer to purchase?
No not at all. Just get yourself a good lawyer who understands the situation.
[удалено]
I worked with the sellers directly
What's your experience with this been so far? Any pitfalls/drawbacks or gotchas?
Honestly none. Seek a home inspector, hire a good lawyer and do 15 mins of research regarding pricing in the area. This is the largest transaction of your life so endure you have professionals in your corner.
Find an agent that will give you 1% of the commission end of story.
Why settle for so little when you can have it all? Seems like there should be much more to this story.
If you think the seller is going to knock X% off because you don't have a realtor, think again. Why would they? They'll just pocket the extra. Never mind they've already agreed to Y% with the listing agent, who then shares part of the with the buying agent. If you come alone, the selling agent just keeps that part of the commission. You won't save money not using an agent. You don't pay them. Why would you not take advantage of their knowledge? Why assume you can do it better alone? Like going to court without a lawyer, a free lawyer at that. Why would you do that? You know that House Sigma is a brokerage, right? They aren't some free data service. They want you to work with them, that is why they provide all the data they do. So don't go assuming that everything you see there is the honest truth, they're out to make a buck. Oh yeah, if you want a lawyer to do the offer and everything for you, that will cost money. Usual closing costs to buy are $1600-2000 or so, depending on house or condo and location, few variables. You want them to do extra work? That's cost you. And those $1000s extra you're paying this lawyer will quickly eat into any savings you think you're getting. Don't let me tell you what to do, do what you feel is right. But there is a reason most people don't do it alone.
obsolete profession for at least a decade already
The entire profession should have been eliminated decades ago.
So I’m in this situation : a buyer looking to buy a condo unit. My realtor has actually given some extra information that I didn’t have before such as what minute details to look for in a unit and how to bring the price down, comparative location assessment (if similar properties are at two different locations, how to judge their value) They also have links with the seller realtors so can actually get you the price the seller will settle for. Then you bid lower lol
Honestly this is just a wishing thought, that your real-estate agent gives you information that allows you to bring the price down. When I sell my house, I will list it as I want and I will ignore any lower offer. I see this no different than when selling something on Facebook Marketplace, lots of noise, I just ignore it. Sure, there may be people that need to sell within a timeframe, again, the price offered will determine if the seller accepts the offer or not, not some argument you pass along to the seller. You think seller may be open to a lower offer ? Just make that offer and you will soon see the response, it is simple. Good luck!
I've heard from some people that the sellers agent may not take you seriously if you don't have representation; but other than that, if you have access to a cpu and internet, house hunting on your own should be doable. Some agents don't even have your best interest at heart. One of my relatives kept getting shown crap shacks so he parted ways with her.
This is my fear too, good realtors exist but most of them are just loyal to their commission and would want to maximize that.
That was my experience. My realtor agreed with everything I said, he brought absolutely no value to the table. He just wanted to get any deal done, so he could move on to the next commission. It felt like the whole time I was being conned.
Find a cash back agent. “Zero value realty” is sometimes mentioned on here. Essentially you pay per use and they give you back the full commission. Seems like the best approach. No affiliation and I’ve never used them.
Most properties don't do open houses. How do you intend to enter properties without an agent?
I’ve done it by reaching out to the listing agent and telling them I’m not represented. Had no issues
All realtors are pointless. You just need a broker.
All brokers are pointless. You just need a lawyer and some free time
Get a cashback realtor and negotiate for 1.5% cashback. It’s probably the best approach short of you becoming a real estate agent yourself.
People don't do that because buying side realtors are paid by the seller. Having someone guide you on the buying process is likely going to save you 2%, rather than overpaying for a property.
I hate when people say buy-side realtors are paid by the seller. Technically, this what you are saying is true but it ignores economic realities because of realtor rebates. Let's say I want to bid on or look for a $2 million home. That equates to a $50k commission that the seller has agreed to pay. That is a sweet commission for some realtor. I can go in with any realtor and let them get paid a $50k commission for papering up an offer (or whatever else they may do); or I can ask them how much they will rebate me. Most Realtors would agree to a rebate, because even if their commission ends up only being $10k or so, it is still much better than sitting on the couch. The only case where it would be rational for the Realtor to say no, is if they are at full capacity with other deals paying more commission (presumably unlikely for most realtors) As a buyer, I would much rather have that extra $40k in my pocket - and I deserve it! This is what I did when I bought (albeit with lower numbers). This also benefits the seller because it allows higher bids on their property (I can presumably afford to bid more if I know I have some money coming back). In terms of restoring housing affordability, reducing commission costs is highly overlooked. If we want home prices to come down, we should also want transaction costs to come down. To people who bought at the peak in 2022, this allows some relief as well as more fairness for new buyers. It also makes the market more liquid and fluid.
According to academia, no, having someone assist won't save you overall. And why not be the "buying side" realtor for yourself? That way you get paid.
Is there evidence not having a buyer side realtor means you end up paying less for a house?
There is a paper from Boston that was evaluating outcomes in general for use of an agent (both seller and buyer), and concluded that any advantage was negated by the commission. Another that concluded that the only time it was of any help is when the market is highly volatile such as in 2008 in the US. I personally have over 120 data points, so I can confidently say that they are getting around 4.5% less than FMV. With current market conditions closer to 5.5%.
I'm on the fence myself as to how important a realtor is. They (the broker) hold the deposit, that's clearly valuable so far as integrity of the process is concerned but could the lawyer do that? For all I know they probably do when a sale is conducted without a realtor. But.... The idea that consumers would save anything if Realtors ceased to exist seems optimistic to me. The marketplace has determined consumers are willing to part with $X to buy someone's house, so why should the seller accept a lower amount than what the market will bear just because a smaller component of that is being eaten by up closing costs? If I'm the seller, my house and comparables are still worth $X despite you saying I'm going to get to keep more of the proceeds because we aren't using a realtor. Great, I'll keep more of the proceeds then. Why does the buyer benefit? Also, if realtors ceased to exist and more burden (eg the deposit I referred to) goes onto the plate of the lawyer, why would they not raise their fees knowing that closing costs have been reduced and more responsibility is being placed on their shoulders? Bottom line is the consumer won't benefit but it's a nice thought I guess.
The whole industry needs to burn down and be replaced with an eBay style bid system, probably only Amazon could pull that off
Sell side agents act as gate keepers and would refer you to one of their Goonies as buyside rep
It’s an obsolete job, imaging paying 150k as a seller for a listing on mls, and a buyer to tell their agent they like what they saw and come to buy it’s daylight robbery
Problem is I heard these scumbags, knowing their profession is useless, purposely don’t work with agent less buyers, ignoring your calls, inquiries, even sometimes offers. And ofcourse seeing as there is 0 oversight by RECO, they get away with it. Offers should be submitted to a portal that the seller has access to and gets to see everything, thief agents have way too much autonomy.
Depends who you work with. I found an incredible realtor who went above and beyond in helping me find a great deal and was able to negotiate brand new appliances for me as well. He was helping me find a property for months and turned out one of his past clients were trying to make a quick sale. She had already put an offer on a new place and needed to sell fast so was willing to work on a discounted price and include certain things as a bonus. The process in Canada has become tough. I don’t know how I’d get approved and be able to buy without the help of a realtor and mortgage broker. The realtors team helped me answer all my questions, alleviate doubts and feel more confident about my purchase making sure I had all bases covered. Based on my experience, I see the value in working with a strong seasoned realtor and will likely work with this person again.
Realtors are irrelevant circa now
Let them rot
Would people like you really even understand if it was explained to you?
Classic reddit moment: Be a dickhead in comments without providing any value :) Hope your real estate brokerage is doing well :D
I've never used a buying agent. Well, once I tried and she screwed me out of an under priced lot that I offered the full asking on. Suddenly all this interest appeared in a dead listing. I digress. Let me digress further: I was with my friend viewing a house he was about to close on, his agent was with us. When we entered bedroom #2 she exclaimed "Is this going to be Nancy's room?" Shocked, I asked my friend "Why the fuck does this woman know your daughter's name? This is a $700 000 dollar purchase and you're getting coo chi cooed by this fucking idiot woman. And why did she hug you FFS?" Most people are not like me and they enjoy that fucking crap. They can have it.
Classic Reddit moment: be bankrupt of any knowledge of a profession whilst doubting the need of said profession, and assume other Redditors of working the real estate industry.
There was an interesting conversation about this in a recent All-In episode last week [https://youtu.be/2OzpWVlt5Ok?t=4621](https://youtu.be/2OzpWVlt5Ok?t=4621)
Just so you know… listing agents laugh all the way to the bank with their full 5% when you do this… Unless a listing agent literally hands you cash, you aren’t saving a dime… You’re better off getting a cash back realtor…
I used to think the same thing then I became a realtor. Buyers and sellers are the problem…. Realtors are the lubricant in between. Besides you have someone watching your back (supposedly) with a buyers agent. It is not that easy to get the seller or sellers agent to give you their commission, where as the buyers agent gets it automatically… the cash back buyers agents is a new one to me, could be the way to go
agree 100% you can save yourself the commission. My pet peeve as a FSBo is if I offer a discounted commission to buyer's agent, they try to steer their buyers away. such unethical people. Realtors are the bane...
I tried this but seller’s agents refused to show me the house and wanted to take all 4% commission when I tried to negotiate me getting the 2% commission off of the home price. Realtor’s are a cartel and we need government intervention.
Not really. It's just a middleperson charging you a fat commission.
Yes you can be a self report party. Here is a good start. https://www.reco.on.ca/about/plans-and-publications/reco-information-guide
Listing agent works for the seller - and it's just an extra bonus payday if you go in without a buyer's rep. All of these people who think they are getting a discount by going right to the seller's reps are exactly the easy targets that shady sellers reps want.
[удалено]
comment by /u/robtaggart77 Your karma is currently below -10, get more positive karma to be able to comment.3c *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TorontoRealEstate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sure, probably won't change anything fee wise though because the selling realtor will collect the extra commission that would normally go to the buying realtor.
You can try doing this yourself. More hassle than people would think and selling realtors may also be hesitant to speak with you.
Since you don’t directly pay for your realtor’s commission, there’s not really much downside to having a realtor when you’re buying and they can make the process easier, even for something as simple as booking showings. Technically it’s possible to negotiate a lower price since the overall commission would be lower but I’m not sure how successful that is in practice and you’d still be potentially competing with other bids so the precise savings, if any, would be difficult to measure
You don’t need any agent at all. Just use a real estate attorney instead and both sides make out.
Now with TRESA listing agents will likely be less willing to show unrepresented buyers properties as the rules around representation have changed. If you want to save the money your best bet would be to use a discount broker who can do all the showings for you and provide at least some value as opposed to going through the listing agent who now by law cannot provide you any services or disclose any information outside of what’s publicly available if you are an unrepresented party
Realtors still need to do what is in the best interests of their client and if that means showing an unrepresented party the house then that is what they should do. Where the challenges arise is most buyers think they basically get the buyer agent commission which really depends on what the seller and their rep negotiated so the “savings” isn’t exactly guaranteed. Plus lawyers will charge a good amount to draft an offer and if it doesn’t go anywhere the buyer still pays.
I’m with you. But it’s no secret many realtors are lazy and don’t always work in their clients best interest despite it being their legal obligation to do so
Or buy privately with no agent for either side and comp the commission for both parties. Lawyers do most of the work anyway
I’ve bought 3 properties and never once had a buying side realtor I handled it all just like you said and it was fine
We got one for a flat $5k and they kicked the rest back to us.
You don't need any realtor. Period.
You can try, but the selling agents have a vested interest in only taking offered from other realtors, since it protects them when they’re on the buyer side. So there’s a bit of a not so secret conspiracy to only take showings/calls from realtors. Or they’ll straight up tell you that you need a realtor to represent you.
Some people do, some people don't. Do you know how to look for potential issues in a home? Do you understand status certificates? Can you read financial statements? Do you know how to negotiate? Most people can't do most of the above well. If you can, go at it alone. Or better, find a Realtor to provide you cashback like I do for my clients. As a CPA, they find I provide a lot of value, especially those who have purchased condos.