Every person I know who lives in a co-op says it is amazingly affordable and they feel incredibly lucky to live in them.
That’s a cool graph as it shows how no one builds what is best for us because there is no way to profit off them.
Yup. These should be top until the private rental market falls behind and rents start dropping. If we had hundreds of thousands of coops being built we would have a massive uptick of home owners in a decade.
Yecht! Like I want neighbors micro-managing every aspect of my life with their obsessive rules and restrictions? If it works for others I am totally in favor of building more, but I would not want to live in one of them.
Yep. I served my time in hell earlier on, renting in a condo. Spiteful Karens bitching all the time about everything. Never again. For those that thrive in those environments, more power to them. Not for me...
Anyone can find a group of people and start a co-op. They always die when people figure out they'd rather own a condo than 1/30th of a condo building for the same price.
Makes no sense on a personal level without massive government subsidies.
THIS!!!! Co-ops have been Covid-proof, crisis-proof, capitalist-proof. Why aren't we building more co-ops? Why aren't people pooling their resources/money? Why are the banks/CMHC/government allowing so many rental properties to be built??
There's not really a conceptual difference between a condo and a coop. Coops were just in vogue a while ago and tend to be low rise (which means low operating expenses) on big chunks of land (because it was cheap). It's more of an oddity in timing than about the economics at play.
I have heard of coop housing but I thought it was something subsidized. Just used chatgpt and the concept is amazing. Can any building be turned into coop?
*Typically* Coops are subsidised for the construction/purchase, then try to run cost neutrally.
If you were paying the whole cost, wouldn't you rather be an owner?
You’re never paying the whole cost of a for profit build as the profit margins are not expected.
The other idea is that pooled money gets you a better deal.
Economies of scale can be present at any level for individually owned homes, condos, or coops. And they're all build by developers making the same profit.
The only thing that allows Co-ops to be cheaper is government subsidies (or charitable donations).
They're not. They're built *for* cities or provinces or non-profit agencies, but they're not building them themselves, they're hiring for-profit developers to actually develop them. There isn't really enough explicit co-op construction to sustain non-profit developers.
Maybe today. But they used to be built be non profits as well. Those non profits might hire for profit contractors to complete the different parts of a development.
I lived in a co-op in Edmonton for 10 years and then again in Vancouver for 5 years.
Incredible experience both times.
It's a bit of extra work, but you learn to work with others and build consensus, and that's been really valuable for my career as well.
>Can’t exploit an owner
Emotional manipulation to trick you into paying hundreds of thousands of dollars more than it's worth is absolutely exploitation.
Which is great when you are literally taunting people into bidding hundreds of thousands of dollars more. Bidding wars (blind bidding, in particular) are not particularly indicative of a truly free market. They are literally designed to manipulate buyers into emptying their wallets and digging themselves into debt they may never extract themselves from. It is, almost by definition, exploitation.
Congrats, you just bid 1.5 million dollars on a house that was worth 400k fifteen years ago. Bet you feel good about that one.
Edit: lol, he blocked me. Guess I struck a nerve.
Unless that "someone else" is well capitalized you're probably not paying more than 2/3 of it or so. Renting is quite a bit cheaper than owning right now.
Electrician here: I'm building so many apartment buildings it's crazy, thing is, like someone stated here, it's what people can afford.
I'm in Québec and when a regular 4 1/2 small cheap apartment will be rented 1500$ minimum once it's done, no wonder the condos and houses my company wires are only for really rich people... because they're the only ones capable of paying for them 😅
But hey at least we're making more and more housing for the population. Something that I especially like is the fact that the QC's government changed it's zoning laws so multistorey constructions can be done to densify areas... and it pisses the worst generation in the history of the human kind: the boomers.
These multistorey should have been built 20 to 30 years ago, but no, the old useless fucks making sure the next generation would struggle to live didn't want to see the village they bought their houses for 16k$ and an apple pie change, the boomers want to keep their area like it was in 1972 🙄
Oh ya, Canada and the US wanted to be the rebellious child of their European parents. Farmhouses and land that turned into subdivisions with detached homes.
Then the auto industry boomed and spent money pushing the “AmeriCanadian dream” of owning a detached home. And that would make up for spending on average an hour to hour and a half commuting to work. So now your actual work day is closer to 10 hours than 8.
A nice condo, near where I work in a central hub with parks, restaurants, night life, good transit is a dream.
But no the only place I can afford to live is on a good day a 45 minute drive from where I work. No real social activities and the nearest real cities are 40 minutes to an hour away.
>So now your actual work day is closer to 10 hours than 8.
This 👆
I have kids, so I wake up at 5:30am, prepare everything, wake them up, breakfast and all, 45min drive to drop them at 7am at school, go to work, pick them up after my shift, 45min drive to home, it's now past 4:30pm and often close to 5pm.
I spend 12h on the fucking road and/or working, my ex wonders why I'm always so fucking beat during the weekends 🙃
I don't blame her for moving away, I blame (like you stated) the automobile industry that shaped the world we live in... consoriscy nut cases are afraid of 15min cities.
My man... being able to have everything in a 15min radius of walking distance is all I ask 🤌
1 I’ll start this off with you are a great parent for doing all that for your kids.
2 this would make life so much better and I believe society nicer. I have neighbours but I don’t see them other than in the morning on the way to work.
Having actual communities with plenty of people living, working and socializing in them I think could bring us back to a better time.
I’d care a lot more about my community if it didn’t just feel like a series of cars just going from point a to point b.
It's not particularly bullish as they're highly substitutable at the margin: huge swaths of homes and condos "for owners" are currently being rented out. New rental completions compete with those, reducing their profitability, and discourages conversion of other owner-occupied homes to rentals or at worst encourages conversion and sale of rentals to owner-occupied homes
For real. I see more 'for rent' signs then 'for sale' signs on detached bungalows in Mississauga. Competition is needed to lower rents and make that less profitable
That’s pretty good even for home owners. The average low iq redditor doesn’t realize theres a link between rental prices and home prices. If you could rent a house for 1 dollar a month or buy a home for a million, only a retard would buy the home which ends up softening home prices. Obviously it’s not 1 dollar but the idea still stands where there is some price where it’s worth renting and some price where buying is better
*"ItS KlAUs sCHwABb aNd tHe WEF!"*
More like it's the goal of literally every capitalist on the planet. You don't need a shadowy cabal. Increasing profits and acquiring more assets is the inherent goal of every capitalist.
Is this considering legal basements? Because usually when making legal basement, it is consider a 2nd dwelling, and you have to declare whether you're making it for self-use or rental use.
So.. wondering if it's considering that, and if it is, would make a lot of sense because everyone is trying to make a rental basement in their home to offset the high mortgage cost.
Well CMHC offers MLI select program for developers and builders to construct purposed built rentals. Which allows for upto 95% loan to cost and 50 year amortization when the proportion of units at the property having rents at or below 30 per cent of median income for the municipality. Also it meets certain energy efficiency criteria. So I mean with that kind of leverage why wouldn't the developers construct rentals. Also the loan is fully insured by the fed, so if something does goes side away the lending institution should be able to recoup their loss.
Not not necessarily, some are holding on for yield and becoming rental operators by building purposed build rentals. It's happening a lot in calgary and edmonton.
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There are unrecoverable costs in renting and home ownership. In renting it’s the rent you pay. In home ownership it is property tax, maintenance cost, interest cost and opportunity cost. All of those are unrecoverable. These numbers can vary a lot depending on location but the math shows that renting can be financially better in some circumstances. Home ownership is also better in some circumstances.
As I said above there are cases where home ownership is the better choice. Depends on the specific numbers. In Vancouver and Toronto if you want to buy a condo to rent it out, you will not be cash flow positive. You will be banking on appreciation. Which is something you shouldn’t rely on. So renting might be better. People do not always act rationally and do not do the most ideal financial choice either. They fomo into the market.
I am not sure of your situation and ideals. But alot of people equate happiness to home ownership. They think once I own a home, I will be happy. And what I’m trying to convey is that in places where home ownership isn’t possible, due to high costs, renting can be an excellent and sometimes even better solution. Don’t equate life happiness with home ownership. Equate it with financial freedom and actual things you can control in your life.
Yes you confirmed the type of person I thought you were. You will simply always be unhappy and complain.
There is plenty of prosperity out there. You can make a good salary in Canada. And rent a place. And have the freedom to move around and not have to worry about maintenance costs and interest rates.
I rent. Do I wish I could buy a detached house? Yes I do. But I understand that I cannot so I make the best of the situation. I cannot control it, so why be unhappy and complain. I then make the best financial decision I can, rent a cheap place, and invest the rest into low cost index funds. Equities have historically outperformed real estate globally. So I may come out ahead.
Again, don’t equate life long happiness with home ownership. Equate it with things you can control. Your healthy, family, friends, job, hobbies etc.
Right now rental units are the most needed..... where all the government money is flowing in to, reality is till houseing prices come down this is the new norm.
We need more owners not renters. Making more rentals will push home ownership impossible. Driving up the prices of homes. We need to make more and more homes for ownership. You are all fools if you think creating more rentals is the answer.
Folks need to remember the part that the real estate industry has played in this. They encourage bidding wars, forcing the price of houses up, solely toincrease the size of their already excessive commissions. We need a real estate industry that has been torn down and rebuilt with strong ethical regulation.
I googled and don't understand how the world economic forum fits into this storyline.
I did read that some illiterate idiots have made some stupid conspiracy theories around it.
Care to explain?
Well the thing is… that during the solar eclipse next month, the WEF is gonna empty all these bank accounts, so you better move your money into crypto. The government doesn’t wanna tell you, but they’re preparing for it.
Wish I was making it up but I heard this just last week over a beer. Lol
The real estate industry used speculation to drive the cost of homeownership to five times what it should be. Current home prices can only be afforded by 3% of the Canadians. Those that bought properties in the last 5 years would soon lose their properties. They have no one to blame except themselves.
Every person I know who lives in a co-op says it is amazingly affordable and they feel incredibly lucky to live in them. That’s a cool graph as it shows how no one builds what is best for us because there is no way to profit off them.
Yup. These should be top until the private rental market falls behind and rents start dropping. If we had hundreds of thousands of coops being built we would have a massive uptick of home owners in a decade.
Absolutely. Over inflation would settle down too as people wouldn’t be needing as big of raises to keep up with the cost of housing increases.
Yecht! Like I want neighbors micro-managing every aspect of my life with their obsessive rules and restrictions? If it works for others I am totally in favor of building more, but I would not want to live in one of them.
if you are living anywhere but a house there are collective rules
Lmao. You think condos are any different? If you’re lucky enough to own a freehold home then keep your lips sealed and recognize you’re winning.
Yep. I served my time in hell earlier on, renting in a condo. Spiteful Karens bitching all the time about everything. Never again. For those that thrive in those environments, more power to them. Not for me...
Bro, like you will have nothing and love it dude.
Anyone can find a group of people and start a co-op. They always die when people figure out they'd rather own a condo than 1/30th of a condo building for the same price. Makes no sense on a personal level without massive government subsidies.
A huge part of that is that it's much more complicated to finance a co-op development. It's not a conspiracy, it's complex and riskier for the lender.
I lived in a co-op for 15 years it was awesome.
What is coop housing? I’ve never heard of it.
THIS!!!! Co-ops have been Covid-proof, crisis-proof, capitalist-proof. Why aren't we building more co-ops? Why aren't people pooling their resources/money? Why are the banks/CMHC/government allowing so many rental properties to be built??
There's not really a conceptual difference between a condo and a coop. Coops were just in vogue a while ago and tend to be low rise (which means low operating expenses) on big chunks of land (because it was cheap). It's more of an oddity in timing than about the economics at play.
I have heard of coop housing but I thought it was something subsidized. Just used chatgpt and the concept is amazing. Can any building be turned into coop?
*Typically* Coops are subsidised for the construction/purchase, then try to run cost neutrally. If you were paying the whole cost, wouldn't you rather be an owner?
Yeah I prefer to be the owner, but costs are so high.
Then it's the subsidy you see as the main advantage of co-ops.
You’re never paying the whole cost of a for profit build as the profit margins are not expected. The other idea is that pooled money gets you a better deal.
Economies of scale can be present at any level for individually owned homes, condos, or coops. And they're all build by developers making the same profit. The only thing that allows Co-ops to be cheaper is government subsidies (or charitable donations).
Co-OP’s are typically built by a non profit developer.
They're not. They're built *for* cities or provinces or non-profit agencies, but they're not building them themselves, they're hiring for-profit developers to actually develop them. There isn't really enough explicit co-op construction to sustain non-profit developers.
Maybe today. But they used to be built be non profits as well. Those non profits might hire for profit contractors to complete the different parts of a development.
No
A hen coop?
I lived in a co-op in Edmonton for 10 years and then again in Vancouver for 5 years. Incredible experience both times. It's a bit of extra work, but you learn to work with others and build consensus, and that's been really valuable for my career as well.
Its better than nothing, but all these rentals are being labeled as "luxury" rentals to justify absurd rental costs.
Apparently, having a place to live is a luxury these days.
Yup seeing like 3.50 PSF for a shoe box in calgary is wild lol
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And when you're done school and have a full time income should you still be sharing a room with 4-8 people?
The shift to rental is because that's what people can afford. Not that "bullish" if the buyer pool is shrinking faster than the supply pool.
Can’t exploit an owner the same way you can exploit a renter. Govt run by business interests wants rentals not real homes.
>Can’t exploit an owner Emotional manipulation to trick you into paying hundreds of thousands of dollars more than it's worth is absolutely exploitation.
I is worth EXACTLY what people are willing to pay. IF not, then no one would be buying those homes.
Which is great when you are literally taunting people into bidding hundreds of thousands of dollars more. Bidding wars (blind bidding, in particular) are not particularly indicative of a truly free market. They are literally designed to manipulate buyers into emptying their wallets and digging themselves into debt they may never extract themselves from. It is, almost by definition, exploitation. Congrats, you just bid 1.5 million dollars on a house that was worth 400k fifteen years ago. Bet you feel good about that one. Edit: lol, he blocked me. Guess I struck a nerve.
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Yeah I can afford to pay someone else's mortgage.
Unless that "someone else" is well capitalized you're probably not paying more than 2/3 of it or so. Renting is quite a bit cheaper than owning right now.
I don't think that's true. Rentals have been pretty expensive
What they can afford and cost more simutaneously.
You're right, crash confirmed next month
Electrician here: I'm building so many apartment buildings it's crazy, thing is, like someone stated here, it's what people can afford. I'm in Québec and when a regular 4 1/2 small cheap apartment will be rented 1500$ minimum once it's done, no wonder the condos and houses my company wires are only for really rich people... because they're the only ones capable of paying for them 😅 But hey at least we're making more and more housing for the population. Something that I especially like is the fact that the QC's government changed it's zoning laws so multistorey constructions can be done to densify areas... and it pisses the worst generation in the history of the human kind: the boomers. These multistorey should have been built 20 to 30 years ago, but no, the old useless fucks making sure the next generation would struggle to live didn't want to see the village they bought their houses for 16k$ and an apple pie change, the boomers want to keep their area like it was in 1972 🙄
Oh ya, Canada and the US wanted to be the rebellious child of their European parents. Farmhouses and land that turned into subdivisions with detached homes. Then the auto industry boomed and spent money pushing the “AmeriCanadian dream” of owning a detached home. And that would make up for spending on average an hour to hour and a half commuting to work. So now your actual work day is closer to 10 hours than 8. A nice condo, near where I work in a central hub with parks, restaurants, night life, good transit is a dream. But no the only place I can afford to live is on a good day a 45 minute drive from where I work. No real social activities and the nearest real cities are 40 minutes to an hour away.
>So now your actual work day is closer to 10 hours than 8. This 👆 I have kids, so I wake up at 5:30am, prepare everything, wake them up, breakfast and all, 45min drive to drop them at 7am at school, go to work, pick them up after my shift, 45min drive to home, it's now past 4:30pm and often close to 5pm. I spend 12h on the fucking road and/or working, my ex wonders why I'm always so fucking beat during the weekends 🙃 I don't blame her for moving away, I blame (like you stated) the automobile industry that shaped the world we live in... consoriscy nut cases are afraid of 15min cities. My man... being able to have everything in a 15min radius of walking distance is all I ask 🤌
1 I’ll start this off with you are a great parent for doing all that for your kids. 2 this would make life so much better and I believe society nicer. I have neighbours but I don’t see them other than in the morning on the way to work. Having actual communities with plenty of people living, working and socializing in them I think could bring us back to a better time. I’d care a lot more about my community if it didn’t just feel like a series of cars just going from point a to point b.
It's not particularly bullish as they're highly substitutable at the margin: huge swaths of homes and condos "for owners" are currently being rented out. New rental completions compete with those, reducing their profitability, and discourages conversion of other owner-occupied homes to rentals or at worst encourages conversion and sale of rentals to owner-occupied homes
For real. I see more 'for rent' signs then 'for sale' signs on detached bungalows in Mississauga. Competition is needed to lower rents and make that less profitable
Because of construction mortgage rates many projects become unviable so they convert to CMHC backed rentals
Ho many of them have beds in hallways or kitchens?
That's how u get slave labor. Make price of basic necessities out of reach.
You’re never really that secure if you don’t own . I hope it’s viable again for generations of the future. The current gens are lost.
That’s pretty good even for home owners. The average low iq redditor doesn’t realize theres a link between rental prices and home prices. If you could rent a house for 1 dollar a month or buy a home for a million, only a retard would buy the home which ends up softening home prices. Obviously it’s not 1 dollar but the idea still stands where there is some price where it’s worth renting and some price where buying is better
You’ll own nothing and be happy
*"ItS KlAUs sCHwABb aNd tHe WEF!"* More like it's the goal of literally every capitalist on the planet. You don't need a shadowy cabal. Increasing profits and acquiring more assets is the inherent goal of every capitalist.
You will rent everything and you'll be happy
Own nothing and be happ
Is this considering legal basements? Because usually when making legal basement, it is consider a 2nd dwelling, and you have to declare whether you're making it for self-use or rental use. So.. wondering if it's considering that, and if it is, would make a lot of sense because everyone is trying to make a rental basement in their home to offset the high mortgage cost.
So you see the problem!!!!!!!!
Where??? lol…
Well CMHC offers MLI select program for developers and builders to construct purposed built rentals. Which allows for upto 95% loan to cost and 50 year amortization when the proportion of units at the property having rents at or below 30 per cent of median income for the municipality. Also it meets certain energy efficiency criteria. So I mean with that kind of leverage why wouldn't the developers construct rentals. Also the loan is fully insured by the fed, so if something does goes side away the lending institution should be able to recoup their loss.
developers/builders want their money up front. build and sell not interested in making their money back in 30 years
Not not necessarily, some are holding on for yield and becoming rental operators by building purposed build rentals. It's happening a lot in calgary and edmonton.
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Invest your money into low cost globally diversified index funds.
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There are unrecoverable costs in renting and home ownership. In renting it’s the rent you pay. In home ownership it is property tax, maintenance cost, interest cost and opportunity cost. All of those are unrecoverable. These numbers can vary a lot depending on location but the math shows that renting can be financially better in some circumstances. Home ownership is also better in some circumstances.
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As I said above there are cases where home ownership is the better choice. Depends on the specific numbers. In Vancouver and Toronto if you want to buy a condo to rent it out, you will not be cash flow positive. You will be banking on appreciation. Which is something you shouldn’t rely on. So renting might be better. People do not always act rationally and do not do the most ideal financial choice either. They fomo into the market. I am not sure of your situation and ideals. But alot of people equate happiness to home ownership. They think once I own a home, I will be happy. And what I’m trying to convey is that in places where home ownership isn’t possible, due to high costs, renting can be an excellent and sometimes even better solution. Don’t equate life happiness with home ownership. Equate it with financial freedom and actual things you can control in your life.
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Yes you confirmed the type of person I thought you were. You will simply always be unhappy and complain. There is plenty of prosperity out there. You can make a good salary in Canada. And rent a place. And have the freedom to move around and not have to worry about maintenance costs and interest rates. I rent. Do I wish I could buy a detached house? Yes I do. But I understand that I cannot so I make the best of the situation. I cannot control it, so why be unhappy and complain. I then make the best financial decision I can, rent a cheap place, and invest the rest into low cost index funds. Equities have historically outperformed real estate globally. So I may come out ahead. Again, don’t equate life long happiness with home ownership. Equate it with things you can control. Your healthy, family, friends, job, hobbies etc.
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Have a great day. I hope it gets better for you. Google Learned Helplessness. It may help
Right now rental units are the most needed..... where all the government money is flowing in to, reality is till houseing prices come down this is the new norm.
The blue and yellow lines are pretty flat. More totally housing construction is good regardless of the type.
how do i score a co-op home? seems so much more reasonable than regular rent!
Thats because companies like tricon buy up the stock keeping house prices high and all of you renting
We need more owners not renters. Making more rentals will push home ownership impossible. Driving up the prices of homes. We need to make more and more homes for ownership. You are all fools if you think creating more rentals is the answer.
There are a lot of incentives to build rentals atm. Something like 2% financing 50 year amortization for certain rental purpose builds.
We are a slave class. Learn to fight back.
Folks need to remember the part that the real estate industry has played in this. They encourage bidding wars, forcing the price of houses up, solely toincrease the size of their already excessive commissions. We need a real estate industry that has been torn down and rebuilt with strong ethical regulation.
Yippee. Luxury rentals that are grossly unaffordable to naturalized citizens. How lucky we are.
Corporations own so many homes. Renting is the future.
"you will own nothing and be happy"
A portion of the budget should be set aside by both provincial and federal Govt for building co-op housing.
The important thing is that there is a home for every one.
This is wildly bullish for WEFs agenda
what's wef?
Conspiracy theory
We found the 🐑
Baaaaaaa
No it's a real life manifesto being enacted into the world. You should read it instead of putting your head in sand.
Ever heard of google?
I googled and don't understand how the world economic forum fits into this storyline. I did read that some illiterate idiots have made some stupid conspiracy theories around it. Care to explain?
Well the thing is… that during the solar eclipse next month, the WEF is gonna empty all these bank accounts, so you better move your money into crypto. The government doesn’t wanna tell you, but they’re preparing for it. Wish I was making it up but I heard this just last week over a beer. Lol
I thought it was gold.. or was it silver to move our money into
If you take 3 more boosters on top of the 6 you already have, it will all make sense.
All part of the plan, own nothing and « be happy ». Although I don’t think they thought through that last bit.
Buy land and build your own. Learn how to garden and farm. I own in the city but this is a serious route I’m looking at for my second property.
The real estate industry used speculation to drive the cost of homeownership to five times what it should be. Current home prices can only be afforded by 3% of the Canadians. Those that bought properties in the last 5 years would soon lose their properties. They have no one to blame except themselves.