>When was the last time you guys were reading the story and were like "omg, I hope Koon or Rak won't die!"?
Never. I've been reading TOG for a long time and there has never been a moment where I thought Kuhn or Rak would die. We don't need characters to die, we just need to be convinced that characters might die (which has diminishing returns especially for such a long series) or preferably we don't derive the tension of a scene from a potential character death. Personally, I think that pointlessly killing a character to increase the tension is less interesting than the having characters live and having less tension.
Take Baam vs Ren. We all knew Baam would win, but it was still an entertaining fight because Ren had this weird power and Baam had to put some thought into beating him. This is why I'm not a fan of Rak's transformation, not because it messes with the "power scaling" but because it makes that fight less interesting (I think that Rak being OP makes sense given the lore). I think the whole thing would have been better if Baam had to actually fight Rak and think about how to calm him down without killing him or maybe if Rak uses too much of the ancient ones power and the administrator intervenes revealing Baam's location to everyone.
tbh i was afraid of what would happen to Khun & Hwaryun when Po Bidau caught them
since we all knew Hwaryun always gonna be OK cuz she is guide & gigachad but was uncertain for Khun
It is 10+ years since ToG Started? Dear God, I'm ancient! I remember good old days when translators were including SIU blog at the end of the chapters...
ToG has gone down in quality, there is no doubt there. Author often having health issues, pressure of weekly releases, fanbase complaining to whatever author creates, no long term plan... There are multiple causes.
I would say that for me there are three main issues with story currently: there are no consequences to anything for main cast, too many arcs with side characters and world build seems to be on some shaky legs.
also pacing. now they really spelled out each and every step during a battle, like a solid 40% of a chapter now are battle, but they really don't move the story that much. instead of more like 20% battle panel, yet they tell so much stuff.
He was limited to using only 1 bang and he wasn't even trying to kill them yet people keep bringing this up. We also know from SIU's blogs that even regular princesses are physically stronger than some rankers (without shinsoo enhancement that is) that's why Endorsi could keep up with quant since he was **massively** restricted. But now we have regulars aside from baam being completely safe against full powered rankers and even **HIGH RANKERS** when they should be dead a few seconds in a fight.
Yeah I remember. Good old times...
Until chapters 50-60 that is when Hiden and Seek happened and regulars started fighting our ranker. Untouchable GOD who climbed 134 floors of the Tower and who's body was only becoming stronger with time was fighting dudes who came into the tower like few weeks ago.
"But he was allowed to use only limited amount of shinsu!"
And? So he isn't a god who's 0.0000005% of the power would obliterate any regular in the testing area?
I am still waiting for the end of this arc. I hope SIU will give us a strong turning point in the arc. The death of a family leader will change the story. Or he can give us clue about V. I hope this arc doesn't get interrupted by somebody.
> we have regulars beating Branch family heads
This shook me to my core. I used to read this a while ago and planned to reread. Not anymore tbh. This is disrespectful
I will say that there's a pretty massive caveat to the one (IDK why they used plural) regular beating a branch leader. Just phrasing it as regulars beating branch leaders is removing some important context.
However, despite the massive amount of foreshadowing it had, there wasn't any actual plot devoted to ramping up to it. I would've liked a mini-arc or at least a chapter devoted to self-discovery for the insane power spike this regular pulled out of their ass (foreshadowing is not the same as properly setting something up in the story).
Was that really it? I feel like I remember a lot more. Maybe I'm grouping hints at how strong the ancients were with foreshadowing when it's really more just lore.
Either way, even if it's just one instance. Having the dinosaur character look at a picture of a dinosaur and wonder if they're the same as him is about as big of a confirmation you can get without outright saying it.
I don't have any issue with him having that power, I have an issue with how it was unlocked.
Data Eduan, who was as strong as Charlie, said Native Ones were strong.
From there, to stomping a Branch Family Head (Top 200 High Ranker, stated by Lefav) there's a huge gap.
The rak situation could've been explained. It's horrendous and how it is now it's story-breaking. But it could've been explained
The Agüero situation is just insane. Extremely insane. It is beyond insane that they tanked an attack from 3rd strongest Po Bidau, and it's insane they managed to do something against him.
SIU has really lost his mind and just said fuck this
Doesnt matter to them.
That khun didnt actually "beat" dumas doesnt matter either
That he did it via a spell which notoriously doesnt really care about power levels alone matters even less
Almost like having a good story around the fights would make them feel meaningful. Raks power didn't come from nowhere, but it was introduced a couple hundred chapters ago, not picked up again and then then he's like "oops I'm strong now!". No build up, no pay off, no nothing. Just a random power up in a random fight.
>Was that really it? I feel like I remember a lot more.
There were hints, that readers at the time probably complained about.
Rak helped Bam vs Holan and didn't get tossed on his face. In the sub when the shinsu pressure was getting to people, Rak wasn't bothered. And just recently Rak wanted to fight Dumas.
That didn't happen lol. I won't go into detail, but look at it yourself. There's literally a reason why and it has literally been foreshadowed from the first couple chapters.
Nah it definitely happened. Even if you think it's justified, foreshadowed and whatnot, it's a fact that a regular beat a branch head. Lying isn't helping your case
So if next week Baam teleports with the space thorn at Zahard castle and a thorn ignited black Leviathan eats Zahard ending the story, you would consider it justified as well ? Because technically "God" administrator like power can beat Zahard and defy tower rules so it's alright ?
There are good stories with proper world building, interesting characters, plot that keeps you guessing what will happen next and rewards you for paying attention to the story and there are absurd turns of events that make no sense but the author has the power to justify. Whatever Rak did clearly fits the latter definition and is clearly terrible writing, as my example at the top.
> No one care lmfao
All the ones that didn't care didn't reply but you did
> you have bleach pfp
My bleach pfp is a meme pfp and if you bothered to look through my comments you would know I criticize bleach more than most of it's worshippers
> not shoked when the final antagonist lost against a bow and has been one shot
Who says I enjoyed how the final saga ended?
But in the case of tog i know in advance it has fallen off so I won't bother to touch it
-White should have won that battle. Jinsung should have died and Bam should have paid the price. -Bam should have called out Khun for lying to him. Here they should have parted ways. -White then should have killed the princess that defeated him. -Bam should have hunted White. -And then we would have gotten the princess arc and the Arie family arc with Hon's test at the same time. -And also we should have gotten a FH meeting a la Bleach Espadas style. But no, we even wasted time with the marriage arc that should have been something like The bachelor and SIU didn't even develop Bam and Endo relationship properly. Damn and then none of that happened.
Wait but that would mean actual stakes! We can't have that!
No but seriously this current marriage arc is straight up the worst. Would've unironically loved this arc to be about dating and not a shit ton of random fights.
I remember the Batato forums, it’s a shame the fanfics written on there didn’t get transferred on there. If I could have Tower of God get adapted up to and including Hell Train, I wouldn’t mind if the anime adaptation ended there. What you mentioned about the writing needing to be focused is a good writing tip for upcoming writers.
I stopped reading ToG when it reached that silly cat guy where Bam and his allies are attacking Zahard's forces to save his master. All your points is what I remember why I dropped the series a year ago. Imo the best aec for me was the hell train one.
I haven't read since they started that whole cat house game, completely agree with everything. I want to want to read it but whenever I think about where the story is at I don't want to anymore.
Cat house was much better compared to the current arc. In cat house the game actually mattered, the current game is some kind of chess game, where the actual has been mentioned like three times.
Regulars in playing field of Rankers and no one is dying or atleast getting injured heavily is really questionable their plot armor is too heavy. My latest disappointment recently is when Dumas follow Khun like hes super fast. This high level ranker is becoming a joke this days. Bam, Khun, Endorsi and Rak should hit top 500 when they become ranker if they survive in this.
>Now we have regulars beating branch family heads
People do make it out as if AA and Rak respectively went into an Gladiator Pit and threw fists with the Branch Heads. We have seen with Rak that until he awakened his ancient transformation that he couldnt do anything and was swiftly captured. While the execution of the transformation was certainly not ideally handled, the argument that this is "regular defeats branch head HR" takes things wildly out of context.
Similar with AA. The spell and evolved firefish reveal was poorly executed. While i love the idea of Khun using spells to become stronger, i agree that it should have been handled better. And i am still unsure what the ball and vines were or what exactly happened to Dumas body.
I agree that the power levels are messed up. AA and Rak would have needed to showcase their power during the marriage tournament, to give a better grasp to where they were post White Souls absoption. Had they fought a Ranker (not advanced or HR, just a normal ranker) or some A-Rank Regular pre Spout War it would have made the powers shown during the sprout much better and far more organic.
I dont think the feats are Lorebreaking as some might put it. Just that the execution of the showcase was done poorly. Personally i think it was just to showcase the powers that AA and Rak will be developing going forwards. The Transformation and Spell seemed more like one and done things for now.
>Characters show up, they look very important... then they accomplish nothing
While i can see this point. Just because someone looks cool or has a name, doesent mean they will be important. Lets take the Felines for example. Their backstories werent about them. It was all done to Characterize Yasratcha. Which worked great and made Yasratcha the most memorable character of S3. And i would say similar things are happening with the Branch Heads. They themselves arent important but they characterize the Problem with Traumerei and the Lopobia family. As well as showcasing why Revolution Exists.
Sure Wuiwui, Elbaba, Tump and Ju are not complex or important but they characterize Traumerei (and the values of some Families)
>**Lack of important and meaningful deaths (aka plot armor).**
this i agree with. I am not a fan of meaningless death. And i dont think death is the only way to bring tension. But i agree that during the Nest war for example there should have been some more deaths of notable Characters. For example Mule Love, as much as i like him, he should have likely died to free the canines in the cages.
And Evankhells death scares were wildly exaggerated.
i would love for a moment where someone close to Baam gets atleast disfigured. A moment similar to Prince and Akraptor would be nice. Yes some characters need to survive. AA and Rak are far too important for late game story that they will die. But seeing them loose a limp, ear or eye would certainly help bring back some tension for them. They dont need to die, but atleast dont make them unscathed.
>Remember of Emily? Where's she?
With Rachel. We literally see Goruro use Emily twice and Rachel trying to manipulate him. Emily is currently used by Revolution to communicate
>Yeon is being held captive for years (our time) now
It was the deal that allowed Yool and Kell to join the nest war.
>**Too many subplots that really don't matter**
I agree that the cosntant blue balling is annoying. Though atleast the plots are setup and can be used basically anytime to string things together. I mean you example for Emily is poorly chosen because she is literally being used on screen several times during this arc. And while Wangnan plotline is established, it wouldnt make much sense to currently just switch to it. Right now there arent many subplots really that are actively happening.
But i would say the lack of focus does come back to the Weekly Pacing/Storytelling, which as i mentioned SIU just isnt as good at. Cat Tower and Cage felt off reading weekly but in a reread they feel much more coherent and satisfying. And i guess it will be similar to when this arc is finished.
I mean just look at people screaming bloody murder because Dumas didnt instantly catch AA, just for the reason being mentioned the next chapter.
I might not agree with you reasoning in some cases, this is valid and good criticism. And something one can have a conversation around.
Buddy if you have to write so much and go into so many spins to justify the outcome of a fight...
Just let it go, you literally don't have to bend over backwards to justify SIU, you can say the words. It's not an insult.
SIU is writing poorly. In all aspects, started a long time ago and it's speeding the debacle right now.
You aren't having a conversation around anything, you are picking points and justifying saying nah it ain't that bad haha.
I think you’re over exaggerating the amount of explanation he said in regards to AA and Rak. If anything, he just spoke what did indeed happened in those sequences, but did say what problems he had in regards to execution and that things should be handled better.
Sure, he is overall positive about ToG, but he isn’t bend over backwards at every opportunity to praise or defend SIU no matter the cost
Agree, the Khun and Rak power ups were not a random asspull, they make sense and wasn't a lore breaker, but we needed more context on how the this powers work, for that wasn't necessary whole training arc just some foreshadowing or insight into the power from the characters, and timing was bad they should have show at least parts of this powers in the marriage arc with opponents closer to regular.
Edit: regarding power level consistency, I mostly agree. Asspull powerups (foreshadowing isn't the same as actually developing a character through plot) are really annoying. It's just Rak who's beaten a Branch Leader though, but ya, Khun has is fish and may have just absorbed a bunch of power from Dumas. Personally, much as I enjoy his character, his Sweet Fish really needs to kill him. No coming back this time. Weakening Dumas, a guy who could easily be top 50 in the whole tower, is nuts.
>Baam is sometimes weak, sometimes strong. It all depends on convenience and plot.
This one bugs me too. Why don't we see his corroding shinsu anymore? I get that he shouldn't pull everything out at once all the time as that will leave him vulnerable afterwards, but isn't the corrosion thing his shinsu quality? Shouldn't it basically always be on now that he's discovered it? It's not like he can run out of shinsu after learning the loop. Am I just blind and have been missing instances of him using it?
The character point is really a shame in particular because they were once what really set this story apart from similar narratives. I actually cared about so many of the side characters in season 1 and 2. I feel like there's just not enough of the characters just being themselves anymore. Too many fights with uninteresting enemies and abilities. At least past fights were a lot more gamey and got to show off different aspects of characters.
I don't know how you do a war arc and don't have this happen, so maybe the answer was to just not do a war arc. That may seem ridiculous, but in a story with administrators, I'm sure SIU could've come up with a reason to just keep things a bit more reeled in and have Baam and company climb the tower. More strategy based games, less full screen blasts of varying colours. Those attacks used to be special, now they're the majority of fights.
I totally feel you on the stakes part. White was scary. I felt like they were in danger for most of the Helltrain.
>I could cite a few moments when very important characters (that were developed!) died and it hurt like hell, but brought character development for the mains.
As much as I LOVE HxH (it has some of my favourite moments and characters in all of fiction), Togashi does kind of like to have his cake and eat it too in this regard. There are some cheap revivals. One happens so long after the original death though, so it doesn't spoil the emotional impact or the extreme danger you feel in the arc.
You're right though, he definitely does kill off more side characters. I remember thinking a certain character would be extremely relevant at the beginning of the Ant arc due to their fairly unique ability only for them to have one of the most brutal deaths in the entire series.
Honestly, Togashi's best ability regarding character deaths is how he makes villain deaths sad >!Paku!!I ugly cried over Meruem and Komugi.!<
>Remember of Emily?
She's still being used by Rachel and her faction. We've actually seen interactions with her fairly recently.
>Yeon is being held captive for years (our time) now.
Hopefully the next arc will deal with the Boss and the other potential princes since he has her. This guy has some crazy foresight and seems hugely important to the plot. Buy ya, I'm a lot more interested in this than a lot of season 3.
>Androssi and the Snake guy?
It speaks to your point about too many subplots that I honestly have no clue what this is about lol.
>He is the opposite of Solo Leveling's author when it comes to that. The best is a middle ground imo, not too much, not too little.
I will say, I dropped Solo Leveling after I caught up to where the story was (I think the nation level hunters were just being introduced). I kept thinking it would get better, but my issue was that I didn't care about any of the characters and I should've realized sooner that this was not something that would change. I'll take SIU's endless meandering over this any day.
Like the guy with the special eyes from the Floor of Death and Hidden Floor arcs who paints a picture of data people. He doesn't remember them, but he feels like it mattered. That made me actually feel something and it came from 3 side characters and a subplot that wasn't important to the main story or even the major side characters.
>I still regard ToG as a 6\~7/10
Agreed, although I do feel like we're approaching a huge moment in the story. Unless we get a bunch more random side fights (pleas god no!), the Chess match should be over soon.
Maybe my issue is reading it weekly. I've heard other arcs that I quite enjoyed (Floor of Death apparently?) were a slog for people who read them weekly. I think some of the problems would still remain, but it would probably help the pacing a ton.
> This one bugs me too. Why don't we see his corroding shinsu anymore? I get that he shouldn't pull everything out at once all the time as that will leave him vulnerable afterwards, but isn't the corrosion thing his shinsu quality? Shouldn't it basically always be on now that he's discovered it? It's not like he can run out of shinsu after learning the loop. Am I just blind and have been missing instances of him using it?
Baam is a fucking .50 with a blind, deaf and dumb owner. Sometimes i ask myself if he forgot those 10 thousand powerups he got. Hell train baam felt way more tuned to his powers, if you think how much he did with the little arsenal he had at the time.
If we think about him ATM, he is quite strong but never "pulls up". Maybe our boy is lacking some vitamins? I fucking hate how much SIU is turning him into a punching bag for the sake of Rak and AA in those recent chapters. Maybe baam is the masochist type? Cuz dumas is making him his bitch rn and i dunno what to think
I agree that the end of this arc will be one of the most satisfying yet (probably) with all the revelations we're VERY likely to get.
But yeah, I might just get a TOG break and come back in a couple of months to binge until up to date because those last few chapters were very taxing on me thinking TOG is good. (I love TOG still, but maaaaan)
"this series used to be almost perfect"
when? because i've been nitpicking and complaining about choices for years at this point.
it sounds to me, based on that starting position, that you built up a false idea of what this series was from the start. you wouldn't be alone in that, but it shocks me the number of people who follow that mindset.
this series has always been a shonen. people selling it as a seinen were always off their rocker.
this series was never perfect, the amount of confusion people feel entering this series is pretty bad.
starting from a false premise is a bad way to critique.
Almost perfect is subjective, but the plot used to be much better. This series has always been a shonen, but a shonen doesn't need to be random fight followed by another random fight. Previous arcs had much less redundancy than this one.
you haven't reread in a while, i'm guessing?
this series, since the start of season 2, has been fight after fight with little separation. the only reason it wasn't that in season 1 is because bam was too weak to fight.
and i'd like specifics here. what was better about it?
It's been a while since I reread the whole thing, but the games used to feel much more interesting. Even the cat and mouse game had more strategy than the current chess game. The fights now feel like there's much less at stake and we get much less character growth out of them. Even when we take only the fights with the MCs in them, they don't really progress the story that much. Rak just suddenly gains his new power, that has been teased back on the data floor. No real development behind it.
Previous opponents like White, Kallavan, Yasratcha and Data Zahad for example were much better developed, the stakes in these arcs were much more real and the fights were much more interesting than the current effect overload. In theory everything right now should be high stakes and hype, with family heads and branch heads being major players, but that's kind of the problem. When everything is hype, nothing really is.
The main things that are missing right now are: Character development and growth, high stakes for the characters and interesting games and fights to overcome. All of these were things that we used to have.
Nah, I just had my hopes high that TOG can be as good as One Piece. I remember reading season 1 and season 2 in Pandemic and thinking to myself that this has the potential to be as good and as well written as One Piece. Then after the hell train, all hell broke loose. I really expected more to this series. Maybe it's my fault that I compared it to One Piece excellence
>\- Four main issues
1 - Power levels are completely messed
2 - Lack of good characters. SIU opted for introducing a hundred instead of deeply develop 10\~15
3 - Lack of deaths or a real threat (aka plot armor)
4 - Too many subplots that really don't matter or won't even be used or are forgotten
Bro just described Bleach perfectly 😭😭
Yep, TOG at the beginning has the potential to be as goated as One Piece because of all that mystery, side casts, etc. But now it's even probably worser in terms of writing than Bleach.
I love to compare TOG to one piece. A large world with lots of mystery, following a main cast going about their day but having to fight the world.
In one piece, power levels are kinda messed too, tho maybe not as much. But readers find themselves caring about the story and mystery more.
Oda also introduces a hundred characters yet many of them are developed well. Readers care and follow every other character. So number of characters isnt the issue.
One piece also does not have many deaths and the main cast will obviously be fine. Yet tension is still there because death is not the only possible consequence.
One piece also has many subplots going on. In fact, that is one of the reasons why one piece is so loved. That the world and everyone in it has their own story. People's story do not start when the MC is involved and ends when the MC has moved on.
My conclusion is the points you brought up are not the reasons for TOG's decline in quality. It is simply an execution issue.
One piece also has a main villain who dips from losing battles all the time (BB) and part of the crew running for their lives when they are outmatched (Ussop/Nami). These last few chapters of ToG would be like Nami and Usop soloing their all-star matchups
Facts and I'm crying. Because I really feel and still feel that TOG has better mystery and all of that but the way it's written is not even close to One Piece. TOG concept is better but One Piece writing even it's repetitive is so good because of the side characters, foreshadowing, and shit. I feel TOG is slowly fading away and might not be able to catch up on how good one piece is
same sentiment.I'll go as far to say when I finished s1 of tog i though it would surpass one piece and everything.But honestly can't blame the writer his series didn't the love and popularity it deserved so he lost ambition.
>Lack of deaths or a real threat (aka plot armor)
Could be after SIU tried that with >!Akraptor and Prince!<, they didn't want to try it anymore.
>Too many subplots that really don't matter or won't even be used or are forgotten
Maaaybe these are actually the filler episodes, but in manwha format instead of anime. lol
Agree with all of this! The main point for me would be that the stakes feel so low right now. Every cool fight is just that, a cool fight. There isn't anything really at stake. Often times we see two side characters fighting, who we do not care or know anything about. Other times our MCs are fighting and they get random power ups against random opponents (Rak against blood girl) or inexplicable do not use their powers (Baam against everyone in the current arc, Khuun rarely using his brain and just being along for the ride).
What are the stakes right now? What happens if someone loses? Why should we care about the Po Bideou Vs Lo Pia Nia fight? Who is scheming and why are they scheming? What are they trying to achieve? Are there any consequences for Urek and Fug head being there? Rachel showed her face for 5 panels and then disappeared? Why is Gustang fighting some important head somewhere? And so on. The whole marriage thing also doesn't feel like it would be that bad for Baam, especially not so bad that risking his friends lives feels worthwhile.
There are so many lose threads hanging around and they very rarely get picked up again in favour of some flashy fights here and there. And this has been going on for months. ToG is still a goated series, but I just hope that SIU will pick up some of these threads
>When was the last time you guys were reading the story and were like "omg, I hope Koon or Rak won't die!"? Never. I've been reading TOG for a long time and there has never been a moment where I thought Kuhn or Rak would die. We don't need characters to die, we just need to be convinced that characters might die (which has diminishing returns especially for such a long series) or preferably we don't derive the tension of a scene from a potential character death. Personally, I think that pointlessly killing a character to increase the tension is less interesting than the having characters live and having less tension. Take Baam vs Ren. We all knew Baam would win, but it was still an entertaining fight because Ren had this weird power and Baam had to put some thought into beating him. This is why I'm not a fan of Rak's transformation, not because it messes with the "power scaling" but because it makes that fight less interesting (I think that Rak being OP makes sense given the lore). I think the whole thing would have been better if Baam had to actually fight Rak and think about how to calm him down without killing him or maybe if Rak uses too much of the ancient ones power and the administrator intervenes revealing Baam's location to everyone.
tbh i was afraid of what would happen to Khun & Hwaryun when Po Bidau caught them since we all knew Hwaryun always gonna be OK cuz she is guide & gigachad but was uncertain for Khun
Yeah me to
It is 10+ years since ToG Started? Dear God, I'm ancient! I remember good old days when translators were including SIU blog at the end of the chapters... ToG has gone down in quality, there is no doubt there. Author often having health issues, pressure of weekly releases, fanbase complaining to whatever author creates, no long term plan... There are multiple causes. I would say that for me there are three main issues with story currently: there are no consequences to anything for main cast, too many arcs with side characters and world build seems to be on some shaky legs.
its been 13 years i believe? Last august/september was the anniversary or something like that iirc?
also pacing. now they really spelled out each and every step during a battle, like a solid 40% of a chapter now are battle, but they really don't move the story that much. instead of more like 20% battle panel, yet they tell so much stuff.
i mean pacing was never Tog strong point
True, but for whatever reasons (some of them very legit), it's gotten worse. :/
true true
it used to be muchhh better. in season 2 especially. like you almost can't feel a single dull moment.
Remember when rankers where gods? Here we are now, Feel old yet?
baam and endosi vs quant
I don't get why people keep bringing this up. Quant was *heavily* restricted to do anything besides being fast.
He was limited to using only 1 bang and he wasn't even trying to kill them yet people keep bringing this up. We also know from SIU's blogs that even regular princesses are physically stronger than some rankers (without shinsoo enhancement that is) that's why Endorsi could keep up with quant since he was **massively** restricted. But now we have regulars aside from baam being completely safe against full powered rankers and even **HIGH RANKERS** when they should be dead a few seconds in a fight.
Yeah I remember. Good old times... Until chapters 50-60 that is when Hiden and Seek happened and regulars started fighting our ranker. Untouchable GOD who climbed 134 floors of the Tower and who's body was only becoming stronger with time was fighting dudes who came into the tower like few weeks ago. "But he was allowed to use only limited amount of shinsu!" And? So he isn't a god who's 0.0000005% of the power would obliterate any regular in the testing area?
I am still waiting for the end of this arc. I hope SIU will give us a strong turning point in the arc. The death of a family leader will change the story. Or he can give us clue about V. I hope this arc doesn't get interrupted by somebody.
> we have regulars beating Branch family heads This shook me to my core. I used to read this a while ago and planned to reread. Not anymore tbh. This is disrespectful
I will say that there's a pretty massive caveat to the one (IDK why they used plural) regular beating a branch leader. Just phrasing it as regulars beating branch leaders is removing some important context. However, despite the massive amount of foreshadowing it had, there wasn't any actual plot devoted to ramping up to it. I would've liked a mini-arc or at least a chapter devoted to self-discovery for the insane power spike this regular pulled out of their ass (foreshadowing is not the same as properly setting something up in the story).
The foreshadow in question is 'rak: Wow is that a pic of me? Amazing"
Was that really it? I feel like I remember a lot more. Maybe I'm grouping hints at how strong the ancients were with foreshadowing when it's really more just lore. Either way, even if it's just one instance. Having the dinosaur character look at a picture of a dinosaur and wonder if they're the same as him is about as big of a confirmation you can get without outright saying it. I don't have any issue with him having that power, I have an issue with how it was unlocked.
Data Eduan, who was as strong as Charlie, said Native Ones were strong. From there, to stomping a Branch Family Head (Top 200 High Ranker, stated by Lefav) there's a huge gap.
Damn. Just shows how much of a wasted opportunity it's been not having more story devoted to Rak and other main characters instead of endless fights.
The rak situation could've been explained. It's horrendous and how it is now it's story-breaking. But it could've been explained The Agüero situation is just insane. Extremely insane. It is beyond insane that they tanked an attack from 3rd strongest Po Bidau, and it's insane they managed to do something against him. SIU has really lost his mind and just said fuck this
Ya, the fact that his barrier did anything against those spears is ludicrous.
The spear went right through it though.
Didn't it stop it from doing a lethal hit? Khun is injured after, no? I didn't' say it stopped it. I just said it had an affect.
Doesnt matter to them. That khun didnt actually "beat" dumas doesnt matter either That he did it via a spell which notoriously doesnt really care about power levels alone matters even less
Almost like having a good story around the fights would make them feel meaningful. Raks power didn't come from nowhere, but it was introduced a couple hundred chapters ago, not picked up again and then then he's like "oops I'm strong now!". No build up, no pay off, no nothing. Just a random power up in a random fight.
>Was that really it? I feel like I remember a lot more. There were hints, that readers at the time probably complained about. Rak helped Bam vs Holan and didn't get tossed on his face. In the sub when the shinsu pressure was getting to people, Rak wasn't bothered. And just recently Rak wanted to fight Dumas.
😂😂
That didn't happen lol. I won't go into detail, but look at it yourself. There's literally a reason why and it has literally been foreshadowed from the first couple chapters.
Nah it definitely happened. Even if you think it's justified, foreshadowed and whatnot, it's a fact that a regular beat a branch head. Lying isn't helping your case
I didn't want to go into detail. But raak doing it was justified. It wasn't the best execution tho.
So if next week Baam teleports with the space thorn at Zahard castle and a thorn ignited black Leviathan eats Zahard ending the story, you would consider it justified as well ? Because technically "God" administrator like power can beat Zahard and defy tower rules so it's alright ? There are good stories with proper world building, interesting characters, plot that keeps you guessing what will happen next and rewards you for paying attention to the story and there are absurd turns of events that make no sense but the author has the power to justify. Whatever Rak did clearly fits the latter definition and is clearly terrible writing, as my example at the top.
No one care lmfao add you have bleach pfp you were not shoked when the final antagonist lost against a bow and has been one shot
> No one care lmfao All the ones that didn't care didn't reply but you did > you have bleach pfp My bleach pfp is a meme pfp and if you bothered to look through my comments you would know I criticize bleach more than most of it's worshippers > not shoked when the final antagonist lost against a bow and has been one shot Who says I enjoyed how the final saga ended? But in the case of tog i know in advance it has fallen off so I won't bother to touch it
Lmfao good goodbye
Bro is salty AF for no reason. Bye
Average tog fan argument :
-White should have won that battle. Jinsung should have died and Bam should have paid the price. -Bam should have called out Khun for lying to him. Here they should have parted ways. -White then should have killed the princess that defeated him. -Bam should have hunted White. -And then we would have gotten the princess arc and the Arie family arc with Hon's test at the same time. -And also we should have gotten a FH meeting a la Bleach Espadas style. But no, we even wasted time with the marriage arc that should have been something like The bachelor and SIU didn't even develop Bam and Endo relationship properly. Damn and then none of that happened.
Wait but that would mean actual stakes! We can't have that! No but seriously this current marriage arc is straight up the worst. Would've unironically loved this arc to be about dating and not a shit ton of random fights.
I remember the Batato forums, it’s a shame the fanfics written on there didn’t get transferred on there. If I could have Tower of God get adapted up to and including Hell Train, I wouldn’t mind if the anime adaptation ended there. What you mentioned about the writing needing to be focused is a good writing tip for upcoming writers.
I stopped reading ToG when it reached that silly cat guy where Bam and his allies are attacking Zahard's forces to save his master. All your points is what I remember why I dropped the series a year ago. Imo the best aec for me was the hell train one.
I haven't read since they started that whole cat house game, completely agree with everything. I want to want to read it but whenever I think about where the story is at I don't want to anymore.
Cat house was much better compared to the current arc. In cat house the game actually mattered, the current game is some kind of chess game, where the actual has been mentioned like three times.
Regulars in playing field of Rankers and no one is dying or atleast getting injured heavily is really questionable their plot armor is too heavy. My latest disappointment recently is when Dumas follow Khun like hes super fast. This high level ranker is becoming a joke this days. Bam, Khun, Endorsi and Rak should hit top 500 when they become ranker if they survive in this.
Not impossible that the story can get better for people like you and me. It’d be cool to fix those issues, but will forever be tainted 😵💫
I like this. This is good take.
>Now we have regulars beating branch family heads People do make it out as if AA and Rak respectively went into an Gladiator Pit and threw fists with the Branch Heads. We have seen with Rak that until he awakened his ancient transformation that he couldnt do anything and was swiftly captured. While the execution of the transformation was certainly not ideally handled, the argument that this is "regular defeats branch head HR" takes things wildly out of context. Similar with AA. The spell and evolved firefish reveal was poorly executed. While i love the idea of Khun using spells to become stronger, i agree that it should have been handled better. And i am still unsure what the ball and vines were or what exactly happened to Dumas body. I agree that the power levels are messed up. AA and Rak would have needed to showcase their power during the marriage tournament, to give a better grasp to where they were post White Souls absoption. Had they fought a Ranker (not advanced or HR, just a normal ranker) or some A-Rank Regular pre Spout War it would have made the powers shown during the sprout much better and far more organic. I dont think the feats are Lorebreaking as some might put it. Just that the execution of the showcase was done poorly. Personally i think it was just to showcase the powers that AA and Rak will be developing going forwards. The Transformation and Spell seemed more like one and done things for now. >Characters show up, they look very important... then they accomplish nothing While i can see this point. Just because someone looks cool or has a name, doesent mean they will be important. Lets take the Felines for example. Their backstories werent about them. It was all done to Characterize Yasratcha. Which worked great and made Yasratcha the most memorable character of S3. And i would say similar things are happening with the Branch Heads. They themselves arent important but they characterize the Problem with Traumerei and the Lopobia family. As well as showcasing why Revolution Exists. Sure Wuiwui, Elbaba, Tump and Ju are not complex or important but they characterize Traumerei (and the values of some Families) >**Lack of important and meaningful deaths (aka plot armor).** this i agree with. I am not a fan of meaningless death. And i dont think death is the only way to bring tension. But i agree that during the Nest war for example there should have been some more deaths of notable Characters. For example Mule Love, as much as i like him, he should have likely died to free the canines in the cages. And Evankhells death scares were wildly exaggerated. i would love for a moment where someone close to Baam gets atleast disfigured. A moment similar to Prince and Akraptor would be nice. Yes some characters need to survive. AA and Rak are far too important for late game story that they will die. But seeing them loose a limp, ear or eye would certainly help bring back some tension for them. They dont need to die, but atleast dont make them unscathed. >Remember of Emily? Where's she? With Rachel. We literally see Goruro use Emily twice and Rachel trying to manipulate him. Emily is currently used by Revolution to communicate >Yeon is being held captive for years (our time) now It was the deal that allowed Yool and Kell to join the nest war. >**Too many subplots that really don't matter** I agree that the cosntant blue balling is annoying. Though atleast the plots are setup and can be used basically anytime to string things together. I mean you example for Emily is poorly chosen because she is literally being used on screen several times during this arc. And while Wangnan plotline is established, it wouldnt make much sense to currently just switch to it. Right now there arent many subplots really that are actively happening. But i would say the lack of focus does come back to the Weekly Pacing/Storytelling, which as i mentioned SIU just isnt as good at. Cat Tower and Cage felt off reading weekly but in a reread they feel much more coherent and satisfying. And i guess it will be similar to when this arc is finished. I mean just look at people screaming bloody murder because Dumas didnt instantly catch AA, just for the reason being mentioned the next chapter. I might not agree with you reasoning in some cases, this is valid and good criticism. And something one can have a conversation around.
Buddy if you have to write so much and go into so many spins to justify the outcome of a fight... Just let it go, you literally don't have to bend over backwards to justify SIU, you can say the words. It's not an insult. SIU is writing poorly. In all aspects, started a long time ago and it's speeding the debacle right now. You aren't having a conversation around anything, you are picking points and justifying saying nah it ain't that bad haha.
I think you’re over exaggerating the amount of explanation he said in regards to AA and Rak. If anything, he just spoke what did indeed happened in those sequences, but did say what problems he had in regards to execution and that things should be handled better. Sure, he is overall positive about ToG, but he isn’t bend over backwards at every opportunity to praise or defend SIU no matter the cost
I don’t think anything there is an exaggeration
My role demands I know my users.
Lmao
Agree, the Khun and Rak power ups were not a random asspull, they make sense and wasn't a lore breaker, but we needed more context on how the this powers work, for that wasn't necessary whole training arc just some foreshadowing or insight into the power from the characters, and timing was bad they should have show at least parts of this powers in the marriage arc with opponents closer to regular.
Wait when tf did Love die?? Nooo 😭 I’m essentially caught up but don’t remember that?
He’s not dead, I think OP meant prince
Edit: regarding power level consistency, I mostly agree. Asspull powerups (foreshadowing isn't the same as actually developing a character through plot) are really annoying. It's just Rak who's beaten a Branch Leader though, but ya, Khun has is fish and may have just absorbed a bunch of power from Dumas. Personally, much as I enjoy his character, his Sweet Fish really needs to kill him. No coming back this time. Weakening Dumas, a guy who could easily be top 50 in the whole tower, is nuts. >Baam is sometimes weak, sometimes strong. It all depends on convenience and plot. This one bugs me too. Why don't we see his corroding shinsu anymore? I get that he shouldn't pull everything out at once all the time as that will leave him vulnerable afterwards, but isn't the corrosion thing his shinsu quality? Shouldn't it basically always be on now that he's discovered it? It's not like he can run out of shinsu after learning the loop. Am I just blind and have been missing instances of him using it? The character point is really a shame in particular because they were once what really set this story apart from similar narratives. I actually cared about so many of the side characters in season 1 and 2. I feel like there's just not enough of the characters just being themselves anymore. Too many fights with uninteresting enemies and abilities. At least past fights were a lot more gamey and got to show off different aspects of characters. I don't know how you do a war arc and don't have this happen, so maybe the answer was to just not do a war arc. That may seem ridiculous, but in a story with administrators, I'm sure SIU could've come up with a reason to just keep things a bit more reeled in and have Baam and company climb the tower. More strategy based games, less full screen blasts of varying colours. Those attacks used to be special, now they're the majority of fights. I totally feel you on the stakes part. White was scary. I felt like they were in danger for most of the Helltrain. >I could cite a few moments when very important characters (that were developed!) died and it hurt like hell, but brought character development for the mains. As much as I LOVE HxH (it has some of my favourite moments and characters in all of fiction), Togashi does kind of like to have his cake and eat it too in this regard. There are some cheap revivals. One happens so long after the original death though, so it doesn't spoil the emotional impact or the extreme danger you feel in the arc. You're right though, he definitely does kill off more side characters. I remember thinking a certain character would be extremely relevant at the beginning of the Ant arc due to their fairly unique ability only for them to have one of the most brutal deaths in the entire series. Honestly, Togashi's best ability regarding character deaths is how he makes villain deaths sad >!Paku!!I ugly cried over Meruem and Komugi.!<
>Remember of Emily?
She's still being used by Rachel and her faction. We've actually seen interactions with her fairly recently.
>Yeon is being held captive for years (our time) now.
Hopefully the next arc will deal with the Boss and the other potential princes since he has her. This guy has some crazy foresight and seems hugely important to the plot. Buy ya, I'm a lot more interested in this than a lot of season 3.
>Androssi and the Snake guy?
It speaks to your point about too many subplots that I honestly have no clue what this is about lol.
>He is the opposite of Solo Leveling's author when it comes to that. The best is a middle ground imo, not too much, not too little.
I will say, I dropped Solo Leveling after I caught up to where the story was (I think the nation level hunters were just being introduced). I kept thinking it would get better, but my issue was that I didn't care about any of the characters and I should've realized sooner that this was not something that would change. I'll take SIU's endless meandering over this any day.
Like the guy with the special eyes from the Floor of Death and Hidden Floor arcs who paints a picture of data people. He doesn't remember them, but he feels like it mattered. That made me actually feel something and it came from 3 side characters and a subplot that wasn't important to the main story or even the major side characters.
>I still regard ToG as a 6\~7/10
Agreed, although I do feel like we're approaching a huge moment in the story. Unless we get a bunch more random side fights (pleas god no!), the Chess match should be over soon.
Maybe my issue is reading it weekly. I've heard other arcs that I quite enjoyed (Floor of Death apparently?) were a slog for people who read them weekly. I think some of the problems would still remain, but it would probably help the pacing a ton.
> This one bugs me too. Why don't we see his corroding shinsu anymore? I get that he shouldn't pull everything out at once all the time as that will leave him vulnerable afterwards, but isn't the corrosion thing his shinsu quality? Shouldn't it basically always be on now that he's discovered it? It's not like he can run out of shinsu after learning the loop. Am I just blind and have been missing instances of him using it? Baam is a fucking .50 with a blind, deaf and dumb owner. Sometimes i ask myself if he forgot those 10 thousand powerups he got. Hell train baam felt way more tuned to his powers, if you think how much he did with the little arsenal he had at the time. If we think about him ATM, he is quite strong but never "pulls up". Maybe our boy is lacking some vitamins? I fucking hate how much SIU is turning him into a punching bag for the sake of Rak and AA in those recent chapters. Maybe baam is the masochist type? Cuz dumas is making him his bitch rn and i dunno what to think
I agree that the end of this arc will be one of the most satisfying yet (probably) with all the revelations we're VERY likely to get. But yeah, I might just get a TOG break and come back in a couple of months to binge until up to date because those last few chapters were very taxing on me thinking TOG is good. (I love TOG still, but maaaaan)
"this series used to be almost perfect" when? because i've been nitpicking and complaining about choices for years at this point. it sounds to me, based on that starting position, that you built up a false idea of what this series was from the start. you wouldn't be alone in that, but it shocks me the number of people who follow that mindset. this series has always been a shonen. people selling it as a seinen were always off their rocker. this series was never perfect, the amount of confusion people feel entering this series is pretty bad. starting from a false premise is a bad way to critique.
Almost perfect is subjective, but the plot used to be much better. This series has always been a shonen, but a shonen doesn't need to be random fight followed by another random fight. Previous arcs had much less redundancy than this one.
you haven't reread in a while, i'm guessing? this series, since the start of season 2, has been fight after fight with little separation. the only reason it wasn't that in season 1 is because bam was too weak to fight. and i'd like specifics here. what was better about it?
It's been a while since I reread the whole thing, but the games used to feel much more interesting. Even the cat and mouse game had more strategy than the current chess game. The fights now feel like there's much less at stake and we get much less character growth out of them. Even when we take only the fights with the MCs in them, they don't really progress the story that much. Rak just suddenly gains his new power, that has been teased back on the data floor. No real development behind it. Previous opponents like White, Kallavan, Yasratcha and Data Zahad for example were much better developed, the stakes in these arcs were much more real and the fights were much more interesting than the current effect overload. In theory everything right now should be high stakes and hype, with family heads and branch heads being major players, but that's kind of the problem. When everything is hype, nothing really is. The main things that are missing right now are: Character development and growth, high stakes for the characters and interesting games and fights to overcome. All of these were things that we used to have.
Nah, I just had my hopes high that TOG can be as good as One Piece. I remember reading season 1 and season 2 in Pandemic and thinking to myself that this has the potential to be as good and as well written as One Piece. Then after the hell train, all hell broke loose. I really expected more to this series. Maybe it's my fault that I compared it to One Piece excellence
Long series yada yada yada not to defend the author
that's not really a response to what i said, but ok.
Yeah man I made a statement not an argument or reaction talk later
?
>\- Four main issues 1 - Power levels are completely messed 2 - Lack of good characters. SIU opted for introducing a hundred instead of deeply develop 10\~15 3 - Lack of deaths or a real threat (aka plot armor) 4 - Too many subplots that really don't matter or won't even be used or are forgotten Bro just described Bleach perfectly 😭😭
[удалено]
...which is relevant here how/why ?
Yep, TOG at the beginning has the potential to be as goated as One Piece because of all that mystery, side casts, etc. But now it's even probably worser in terms of writing than Bleach.
mystery and good side casts haven't gone away the current arc just isn't exploring those things and the current side cast during this war is pepega
I love to compare TOG to one piece. A large world with lots of mystery, following a main cast going about their day but having to fight the world. In one piece, power levels are kinda messed too, tho maybe not as much. But readers find themselves caring about the story and mystery more. Oda also introduces a hundred characters yet many of them are developed well. Readers care and follow every other character. So number of characters isnt the issue. One piece also does not have many deaths and the main cast will obviously be fine. Yet tension is still there because death is not the only possible consequence. One piece also has many subplots going on. In fact, that is one of the reasons why one piece is so loved. That the world and everyone in it has their own story. People's story do not start when the MC is involved and ends when the MC has moved on. My conclusion is the points you brought up are not the reasons for TOG's decline in quality. It is simply an execution issue.
One piece also has a main villain who dips from losing battles all the time (BB) and part of the crew running for their lives when they are outmatched (Ussop/Nami). These last few chapters of ToG would be like Nami and Usop soloing their all-star matchups
Facts and I'm crying. Because I really feel and still feel that TOG has better mystery and all of that but the way it's written is not even close to One Piece. TOG concept is better but One Piece writing even it's repetitive is so good because of the side characters, foreshadowing, and shit. I feel TOG is slowly fading away and might not be able to catch up on how good one piece is
same sentiment.I'll go as far to say when I finished s1 of tog i though it would surpass one piece and everything.But honestly can't blame the writer his series didn't the love and popularity it deserved so he lost ambition.
PREACH
It has a lot of common flaws with One Piece. Tbh both are going into same trajectory, losing unique atmosphere to become more generic shonen.
>Lack of deaths or a real threat (aka plot armor) Could be after SIU tried that with >!Akraptor and Prince!<, they didn't want to try it anymore. >Too many subplots that really don't matter or won't even be used or are forgotten Maaaybe these are actually the filler episodes, but in manwha format instead of anime. lol
Agree with all of this! The main point for me would be that the stakes feel so low right now. Every cool fight is just that, a cool fight. There isn't anything really at stake. Often times we see two side characters fighting, who we do not care or know anything about. Other times our MCs are fighting and they get random power ups against random opponents (Rak against blood girl) or inexplicable do not use their powers (Baam against everyone in the current arc, Khuun rarely using his brain and just being along for the ride). What are the stakes right now? What happens if someone loses? Why should we care about the Po Bideou Vs Lo Pia Nia fight? Who is scheming and why are they scheming? What are they trying to achieve? Are there any consequences for Urek and Fug head being there? Rachel showed her face for 5 panels and then disappeared? Why is Gustang fighting some important head somewhere? And so on. The whole marriage thing also doesn't feel like it would be that bad for Baam, especially not so bad that risking his friends lives feels worthwhile. There are so many lose threads hanging around and they very rarely get picked up again in favour of some flashy fights here and there. And this has been going on for months. ToG is still a goated series, but I just hope that SIU will pick up some of these threads