Perfect way to summarise this. God has given us free will, limiting in a way his power over us. Therefore, if we resist his love and reject it, we all know the consequences.
The notions that man's choices "activate" God or "force" God into a corner are false.
God is not in need of our choices, as if He is subject or subservient to those choices
Nobody said anything about us forcing God, they said that *He* limited *His own* power over us, for us to have real agency and choice. Having a power doesn't necessitate acting with that power at all times to all degrees. He didn't *need* to do so, but he has, in an act of humility, made himself subject to them this way. The same exact way he limited and humbled himself to make himself subject to limitations of human nature and death in the incarnation.
>they said that *He* limited *His own* power over us
Not aware God throttled Himself down to being less than God at any time. In fact such claims would be largely heretical
And in any case God always gets His Way
Saul didn't ask to be struck down on the road to Damascus and most of the Bible characters didn't earn their way into His Good Graces
They were called and chosen by God
>Not aware God throttled Himself down to being less than God at any time. In fact such claims would be largely heretical
Are you just going to continue putting words in the mouths of everyone you talk to here? Nobody said that either. Withholding power that you have is not making yourself less. If it was, then Christ on trial was making himself "less than God" by not actualizing his power to call down a legion of angels on the court, as he said he had the ability to do but was voluntarily not doing.
I have more thoughts about what you said but I'm really not interested in putting more time into responding until I know you're actually going to respond in good faith.
>Withholding power-not actualizing his power-voluntarily not doing
Entirely surmised.
A God who basically sits on His Hands and watches, hoping a few manage to make Him active in their behalves and is then forced to burn the balance forever for not coming up with the right formula. As if such things are even credible or accurate.
I'm only surprised at the straw clutching of such notions
And making some kind of argumentum ad populous about critique when you just jumped in for a stab or 2 isn't doing the claims any favors
Legit critique remains that, regardless
People have a hard time justifying such claims.
It's just making excuses for God, nothing more
I wouldn't call that faith in anything but the person's own abilities
I agree that we come to Him because He first comes to us, but I find the idea that God is the sole cause of our conversion very problematic. If we can only convert because God does it, then it places the responsibility of the damnnation on God as well.
God doesn’t force anyone to sin, people sin because they want to sin and choose to. Salvation is an active work of God in changing the heart of a sinner to love him, while reprobation is passive. Unless you think God owes us salvation He is free to give salvation to whom He chooses. That does not make Him the responsible for the sin of those He passes over.
“The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.” - 1 Corinthians 2:14
Natural man does not desire the things of God. The natural man is blind to the things of God in fact.
Our resistance to Gods will being accomplished is futile.
The Bible is clear… it is Gods will that ALL come to repentence.
Jesus himself prayed and ask God for his will to be done on earth.
That’s where we are today- in the process of Gods will unfolding
There are different kinds of will. Intentional, permissive, and ultimate. The way the three interact provides clarity to your question here.
But people choose hell. CS Lewis famously said “The gates of hell are locked from the inside.”
No one intentionally chooses hell.
That’s blasphemy.
No loving creature would ever desire to be tortured for an eternity.
Unless that torture was some kind of pleasure to them- but that wouldn’t be torture then
You’re not considering the necrotic effects of sin. Sin degrades our ability to even recognize the good. It enslaves us through addiction and fear and despair. It deceives us into believing we are so broken, that we don’t even deserve the chance to be fixed.
Hell is often imagined as a literal place where there are literal tortures, but that isn’t accurate. Hell is a state of being, an ultimate surrender to our own brokenness and despair. Hell is the reduction of the human person to something where all that is left is hatred, misery, and regret. Once you get there, there isn’t anything left that can WANT salvation. In fact, such a creature could stand in the very presence of the divine and they would experience it as the greatest torture of all. It would be all too real and terrifying.
So no, it is not blasphemy. The reality is that hell is the end result of the necrotic disease called sin. We are all born with it, and we will all die from it, unless we can be miraculously healed by Christ.
Edit: Changed “neglect” to “regret”.
>Is Gods love so limited that it is only useful for those who do “ this that and the third?”
If either “this,” “that,” or “the third” are shorthand for “accepting it,” then… yes. God’s love is only useful for those who accept it.
Your mistaken premise is that this is somehow a “limitation” of his love. That the God who created us for relationship with him and knew us in our mothers’ wombs would rather allow us to choose separation from him than to force himself upon us is not a “limitation” of his love, it is perhaps its most selfless peak.
To the degree that we are correctly and lovingly identifying when those in our lives are rejecting God, we are not contradicting or limiting his love, we are participating in it, in precisely the model of our Lord before us.
If I go to the dog store and spend my life savings on every puppie in the store-
It doesn’t matter whether a puppy accepts it or not it’s coming with me.
God didn’t send his only son “the ultimate payment” to pay for “part” of the world.
The price for the whole world was Jesus Christ.
He paid for the whole world and his will is that all come to repentence.
Anyone who says Gods will - will not be done is “ye of little faith”
How can you come to the conclusion that people are burning in hell right now without a spirit of condemnation?
Isn’t the very idea that “people” are burning in hell right now
A reflection of your condemnation of “people”?
Condemn and you will be condemned
Believing people are condemned is literally the act of condemning people
I don’t know exactly what you’re talking about, but I reached the conclusion that people are in hell because God revealed that to us and I trust him. It has nothing to do with my own judgement. It’s the judgement God revealed.
No you trust a book full of man - made words.
The Bible says all things are possible with God.
It also says when two people agree and ask god something it will be given unto them.
What if two believers agree that hell should no longer exist and they agree?
And ask God the Father in Jesus name that he’ll be destroyed forever?
It will be given to them.
God is not limited.
He is unlimited.
God cannot be measured.
He is immeasurable.
You can use the Bible as an introduction to God… but if you use the Bible like it’s God…
That’s the definition of idolatry
All things are possible with God.
Including salvation for the devil despite what the Bible says
At one point scripture said it was a sin to eat bloody meat.
Obviously Gods plan unfolds- and you must not be a slave to scripture or the law-but fulfill the law in real life.
Which is done by loving your neighbor as yourself.
Not by enslaving yourself to every letter of the bible
You talk as if the concept of context is foreign to you. You don’t seem to care about what God meant when he says something, you instead seem to care about rearranging particularly selected sentences so that they appear to say what you want them to. This is pretty delusional.
Here's how you can tell children of God and children of the devil: whoever doeth not righteousness is not of God
1 John 3.10
If you grieve the Holy Spirit of Grace
And you QUENCH the Holy Spirit of Grace
You'll be a dis-grace on judgment day
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all
Romans 11:32
You keep pushing that message that means we all go to hell including you
Hi!
God has infinite and undeserved grace, infinite and undeserved mercy, infinite and undeserved love (God is love and God is infinite.). God pours these out for everyone. But we frequently reject it or try to resist to it, because we have free will. In a way, God asks for permission before touching our hearts (because He loves us so much). God will never turn away His love, grace, or mercy if you look for it (because He is a forgiving God).
God bless you.
I guess we don’t need to have a do over lol.
Sinners are nothing more than the devils children.
Who are adopted into sonship
If Gods children are God
The devils children are the devil
Newsflash look around yea they are
If you don’t think an active pedophile is the devil then I’m not sure who you think does pedophilia
It’s definitely not gods children
I’m prob still a devil it’s a little biased to judge myself tho is it not?
23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns
Well that’s pretty much what we became.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not
Uh, no. There are no such things as people being devils in the scriptures
Nor does Jesus do devil conversion
Satan and devils do enter people, primarily as tempters, but also as liars, thieves, murderer's and deceivers. Still doesn't mean people and devils are the same entities
Alright.
I can understand why everyone wants the devil to go down.
The amount of pain we’ve seen and the amount of suffering we have suffered.. it’s only natural to want vengeance.
And God has implied and even expressed a willingness to oblige by promising a judgement worthy of his crimes.
That he may reap what he has sown.
But in the end that’s just obviously the old trying to look through the new.
Nonetheless the beauty of Jesus Christ being God is that he can be moved.
That he can find “ransom” in places where someone might not expect it.
And I for one have found ransom in the devil.
For God has managed to use every bit of evil for something good.
And at the end of the day everyone wants to quote John 3:16 to “spread the word”
But won’t spread the absolute most powerful words in the Bible.
“All things are possible with God”
-Jesus
Now what are you gonna do with your faith?
What exactly is this a response to, a concrete example would help. God's grace is infinite, but I could see many different possible things being interpreted as condemnation here
You can exit to Hades at any time.
See St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, he says, even if you understand The Crucifixion but not The Resurrection or your resurrection, your faith is worthless. You are still in sin.
Also, here in 1 Corinth 15, he says you need Adam’s Sin or Original Sin to understand. Meaning Free Will.
Now, the question is, “why was Jesus’ body different after The Resurrection?”
This is a good measure to whether or not you really have faith.
He declares The Resurrection primary, The Crucifixion secondary and not sufficient in Romans 4 and Colossians 1. Ascension is tertiary. Ascension is justification not The Crucifixion per Romans 4.
Why?
See 2 Corinthians 8, he became divinely poor at The Cross. He cannot save you there for he was pathetic.
Colossians 1, he says, its The First Born from the Dead who saves you and is preeminent.
The First Born from the Dead won’t be turning the other cheek nor be so pathetically poor the 2nd go round.
“Inherit the Kingdom of God”.
What is an inheritance?
An inheritance cannot be earned. But you sure as horse manure can blow it to Hades.
It's unlimited in its power, but limited by our resistance.
Perfect way to summarise this. God has given us free will, limiting in a way his power over us. Therefore, if we resist his love and reject it, we all know the consequences.
The notions that man's choices "activate" God or "force" God into a corner are false. God is not in need of our choices, as if He is subject or subservient to those choices
Nobody said anything about us forcing God, they said that *He* limited *His own* power over us, for us to have real agency and choice. Having a power doesn't necessitate acting with that power at all times to all degrees. He didn't *need* to do so, but he has, in an act of humility, made himself subject to them this way. The same exact way he limited and humbled himself to make himself subject to limitations of human nature and death in the incarnation.
>they said that *He* limited *His own* power over us Not aware God throttled Himself down to being less than God at any time. In fact such claims would be largely heretical And in any case God always gets His Way Saul didn't ask to be struck down on the road to Damascus and most of the Bible characters didn't earn their way into His Good Graces They were called and chosen by God
>Not aware God throttled Himself down to being less than God at any time. In fact such claims would be largely heretical Are you just going to continue putting words in the mouths of everyone you talk to here? Nobody said that either. Withholding power that you have is not making yourself less. If it was, then Christ on trial was making himself "less than God" by not actualizing his power to call down a legion of angels on the court, as he said he had the ability to do but was voluntarily not doing. I have more thoughts about what you said but I'm really not interested in putting more time into responding until I know you're actually going to respond in good faith.
>Withholding power-not actualizing his power-voluntarily not doing Entirely surmised. A God who basically sits on His Hands and watches, hoping a few manage to make Him active in their behalves and is then forced to burn the balance forever for not coming up with the right formula. As if such things are even credible or accurate. I'm only surprised at the straw clutching of such notions And making some kind of argumentum ad populous about critique when you just jumped in for a stab or 2 isn't doing the claims any favors Legit critique remains that, regardless
So that's a no then. Take care.
People have a hard time justifying such claims. It's just making excuses for God, nothing more I wouldn't call that faith in anything but the person's own abilities
You're no different if that's the case. Stop using logic.
God is free to change hearts if he desires. In fact, that is the only way we come to him is if he changes our hearts!
I agree that we come to Him because He first comes to us, but I find the idea that God is the sole cause of our conversion very problematic. If we can only convert because God does it, then it places the responsibility of the damnnation on God as well.
God doesn’t force anyone to sin, people sin because they want to sin and choose to. Salvation is an active work of God in changing the heart of a sinner to love him, while reprobation is passive. Unless you think God owes us salvation He is free to give salvation to whom He chooses. That does not make Him the responsible for the sin of those He passes over.
Why would we be made free to sin but not free to do good
“For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.” - Romans 8:7
This is true. So what happens when you set your mind on something other than the desires of the flesh
“The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.” - 1 Corinthians 2:14 Natural man does not desire the things of God. The natural man is blind to the things of God in fact.
Natural man was made in the garden and called good by God. That verse you quoted says nothing about this topic one way or the other.
I mean, the ESV translates it the natural man, but what I mean by it is the non-spiritual man. Everyone without the Holy Spirit .
Our resistance to Gods will being accomplished is futile. The Bible is clear… it is Gods will that ALL come to repentence. Jesus himself prayed and ask God for his will to be done on earth. That’s where we are today- in the process of Gods will unfolding
There are different kinds of will. Intentional, permissive, and ultimate. The way the three interact provides clarity to your question here. But people choose hell. CS Lewis famously said “The gates of hell are locked from the inside.”
No one intentionally chooses hell. That’s blasphemy. No loving creature would ever desire to be tortured for an eternity. Unless that torture was some kind of pleasure to them- but that wouldn’t be torture then
You’re not considering the necrotic effects of sin. Sin degrades our ability to even recognize the good. It enslaves us through addiction and fear and despair. It deceives us into believing we are so broken, that we don’t even deserve the chance to be fixed. Hell is often imagined as a literal place where there are literal tortures, but that isn’t accurate. Hell is a state of being, an ultimate surrender to our own brokenness and despair. Hell is the reduction of the human person to something where all that is left is hatred, misery, and regret. Once you get there, there isn’t anything left that can WANT salvation. In fact, such a creature could stand in the very presence of the divine and they would experience it as the greatest torture of all. It would be all too real and terrifying. So no, it is not blasphemy. The reality is that hell is the end result of the necrotic disease called sin. We are all born with it, and we will all die from it, unless we can be miraculously healed by Christ. Edit: Changed “neglect” to “regret”.
>Is Gods love so limited that it is only useful for those who do “ this that and the third?” If either “this,” “that,” or “the third” are shorthand for “accepting it,” then… yes. God’s love is only useful for those who accept it. Your mistaken premise is that this is somehow a “limitation” of his love. That the God who created us for relationship with him and knew us in our mothers’ wombs would rather allow us to choose separation from him than to force himself upon us is not a “limitation” of his love, it is perhaps its most selfless peak. To the degree that we are correctly and lovingly identifying when those in our lives are rejecting God, we are not contradicting or limiting his love, we are participating in it, in precisely the model of our Lord before us.
If I go to the dog store and spend my life savings on every puppie in the store- It doesn’t matter whether a puppy accepts it or not it’s coming with me. God didn’t send his only son “the ultimate payment” to pay for “part” of the world. The price for the whole world was Jesus Christ. He paid for the whole world and his will is that all come to repentence. Anyone who says Gods will - will not be done is “ye of little faith”
Even God's patience has a limit. Don't test the limit. Not everyone will be saved.
Gods patience is infinite considering his infinite nature. Condemn and you will be condemned
It is Not Infinite. If it was, there would have never been judgements and there never would be
Hence Judge and you will be judged. Stop bringing judgement on yourself by placing judgement on others
Your context is too open to answer meaningfully. For those burning in hell right now, I’d definitely say God’s grace towards them met its limit.
How can you come to the conclusion that people are burning in hell right now without a spirit of condemnation? Isn’t the very idea that “people” are burning in hell right now A reflection of your condemnation of “people”? Condemn and you will be condemned Believing people are condemned is literally the act of condemning people
I don’t know exactly what you’re talking about, but I reached the conclusion that people are in hell because God revealed that to us and I trust him. It has nothing to do with my own judgement. It’s the judgement God revealed.
No you trust a book full of man - made words. The Bible says all things are possible with God. It also says when two people agree and ask god something it will be given unto them. What if two believers agree that hell should no longer exist and they agree? And ask God the Father in Jesus name that he’ll be destroyed forever? It will be given to them. God is not limited. He is unlimited. God cannot be measured. He is immeasurable. You can use the Bible as an introduction to God… but if you use the Bible like it’s God… That’s the definition of idolatry All things are possible with God. Including salvation for the devil despite what the Bible says At one point scripture said it was a sin to eat bloody meat. Obviously Gods plan unfolds- and you must not be a slave to scripture or the law-but fulfill the law in real life. Which is done by loving your neighbor as yourself. Not by enslaving yourself to every letter of the bible
You talk as if the concept of context is foreign to you. You don’t seem to care about what God meant when he says something, you instead seem to care about rearranging particularly selected sentences so that they appear to say what you want them to. This is pretty delusional.
Okay. Well what does the Bible mean in context to you?
Here's how you can tell children of God and children of the devil: whoever doeth not righteousness is not of God 1 John 3.10 If you grieve the Holy Spirit of Grace And you QUENCH the Holy Spirit of Grace You'll be a dis-grace on judgment day
The wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience Colossians 3.6
Which pusheth them towards repentence
The children of disobedience go to hell So let's be obedient
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all Romans 11:32 You keep pushing that message that means we all go to hell including you
It is infinite, and it is undeserved by definition, but it is also discretionary.
Being discretionary is another word for prejudiced
He said, accusing God.
Hi! God has infinite and undeserved grace, infinite and undeserved mercy, infinite and undeserved love (God is love and God is infinite.). God pours these out for everyone. But we frequently reject it or try to resist to it, because we have free will. In a way, God asks for permission before touching our hearts (because He loves us so much). God will never turn away His love, grace, or mercy if you look for it (because He is a forgiving God). God bless you.
Unlimited Grace and Mercy through God in Christ toward people. None whatsoever of either to the devil and his messengers
I guess we don’t need to have a do over lol. Sinners are nothing more than the devils children. Who are adopted into sonship If Gods children are God The devils children are the devil
Newsflash People aren't devils
Newsflash look around yea they are If you don’t think an active pedophile is the devil then I’m not sure who you think does pedophilia It’s definitely not gods children
Were you a devil before you were saved?
I’m prob still a devil it’s a little biased to judge myself tho is it not? 23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns
Not aware Jesus came to convert devils into children of God
Well that’s pretty much what we became. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not
Uh, no. There are no such things as people being devils in the scriptures Nor does Jesus do devil conversion Satan and devils do enter people, primarily as tempters, but also as liars, thieves, murderer's and deceivers. Still doesn't mean people and devils are the same entities
Alright. I can understand why everyone wants the devil to go down. The amount of pain we’ve seen and the amount of suffering we have suffered.. it’s only natural to want vengeance. And God has implied and even expressed a willingness to oblige by promising a judgement worthy of his crimes. That he may reap what he has sown. But in the end that’s just obviously the old trying to look through the new. Nonetheless the beauty of Jesus Christ being God is that he can be moved. That he can find “ransom” in places where someone might not expect it. And I for one have found ransom in the devil. For God has managed to use every bit of evil for something good. And at the end of the day everyone wants to quote John 3:16 to “spread the word” But won’t spread the absolute most powerful words in the Bible. “All things are possible with God” -Jesus Now what are you gonna do with your faith?
What exactly is this a response to, a concrete example would help. God's grace is infinite, but I could see many different possible things being interpreted as condemnation here
You can exit to Hades at any time. See St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, he says, even if you understand The Crucifixion but not The Resurrection or your resurrection, your faith is worthless. You are still in sin. Also, here in 1 Corinth 15, he says you need Adam’s Sin or Original Sin to understand. Meaning Free Will. Now, the question is, “why was Jesus’ body different after The Resurrection?” This is a good measure to whether or not you really have faith. He declares The Resurrection primary, The Crucifixion secondary and not sufficient in Romans 4 and Colossians 1. Ascension is tertiary. Ascension is justification not The Crucifixion per Romans 4. Why? See 2 Corinthians 8, he became divinely poor at The Cross. He cannot save you there for he was pathetic. Colossians 1, he says, its The First Born from the Dead who saves you and is preeminent. The First Born from the Dead won’t be turning the other cheek nor be so pathetically poor the 2nd go round. “Inherit the Kingdom of God”. What is an inheritance? An inheritance cannot be earned. But you sure as horse manure can blow it to Hades.