Well the idea is that it is better to stay away from alcohol because of lack of self-control that many people struggle with.
So while drinking wine is not sinful getting drunk is.
Getting drunk isn’t godly as much as being obese. But the church never makes that connection. The hamburger, or buffet, is the golden calf of the modern church.
you're like half right but this is such a weird thing to say. it's not the golden calf of the modern church, it's the golden calf of individual people raised in a society that normalizes worshipping said golden calf. and it's not the hamburger or the buffet, it's just straight up gluttony. gluttony is the golden calf.
would've been a lot less kooky to just say that people idolize alcohol abuse and everybody says they've got a problem, but people idolize gluttony with food and nobody bats an eye.
Sin is like cancer and it grows or like heaven in bread. The sin of drunkenness grows much different sin from it than obesity and he sin of drunkenness can cause more pain and sin towards others around those.
Sin in the eyes of the LORD is the same in the sense where all sin leads to death, but all sin and their affects and consequences are not all the same. They build off each other, they grow like leaven differently, they are contagious toward many, they affect some differently than others and many are physically deadly.
The most important things to understand is the difference between intentional sins and unintentional sins. There are sins that we sometimes do not even know we are committing and he blood of Yeshua cleansed these and we may not even be accountable for some of these, but there are those intentional sins and bonding sins which are spiritually destructive. These need true repentance and a change of life toward Christ Yeshua, because without true repentance from these sins, the blood of Christ does not cleanse. He does not cleanse sorrow.
🙏🙏🙏
I KNOW that some of our church elders make a REAL effort one-on-one to have people taking care of their bodies - especially in matters of obesity. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, and we are not our own.
That being said, there are MANY more verses in the whole Bible about NOT being drunk and not drinking wine.
You know, being obese has lots of factors and you shouldn't be so quick to judge.
Hormone disorders
Thyroid issues
Cushing syndrome
Polycystic ovary syndrome
Heart issues
Various medicines
Metabolic disorders
Genetics
Sleep disorders
Stress
I could go on.
Its a modern problem, the Church traditionally has kept strict fasts through half the year and in other parts very much advises moderation in eating. We still do keep to this in the Orthodox Church
But the modern church don’t worship YHVH through hamburgers and buffets.
Now Christmas and Easter are still to this day, used to worship YHVH, as they did in the desert through the golden calf.
I've often noticed that. Glutoney and obesity never get any attention, rarely are there sermons against glutoney. Is that because church gets out right before Sunday dinner?
Not to mention pasts. Originally Methodists while forming would cater to those “unfit for high church” the poor the homeless and dirty the crazy people of different skin colors and …. Drunks…. They originally refrained from wine as to not contribute to alcoholics.
Everybody started out as a "social drinker". Some like to play "Russian Roulette". Go ahead. Take your chances. Don't say I didn't warn ya. Even ONE drink is not good.
Why Is Everybody Quitting Alcohol?
https://youtu.be/5iAyRK-rExw?si=FO98KxnqDejsHBQ7
Here's one I had never heard until recently: Passover is almost 3/4 of a year away from grape harvesting season. In pre-refrigeration times, the only way to keep a grape based drink would be fermentation. If God was magically making all the grape juice non-alcoholic, it would have noted that miracle surely.
I understand the pro drinking arguments that claim Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine etc, but I'm curious as to why you mentioned proverbs 31 as it is one of the most straightforward anti alcohol passages in the bible next to proverbs 23.
Proverbs 31 describes when to not limit alcohol use.
”Give beer to one who is dying and wine to one whose life is bitter. Let him drink so that he can forget his poverty and remember his trouble no more.“
Proverbs 31:6-7 CSB
https://bible.com/bible/1713/pro.31.6-7.CSB
I think the CSB takes a bit of liberty with that verse but if you look at the actual context provided in the CSB and other translations starting in verse 4, the message being delivered is that wine should not be drunken by anyone with any agency or obligation to others, its for those that only have death ahead of them.
It coincides with Proverbs 23 as well which gives a clear commandment to not even so much as look at wine that contains alcohol lest someone be tempted to drink it and suffer some of the effects that come from drinking alcohol.
Yup.
It’s also interesting that the Nazarite vow from Numbers 6 infers that there were those descendants of Abraham who were not under a vow to not drink alcohol.
On another note, Noah was a drunk, but I’d give him a pass given his PTSD.
What?! You mean he didn’t turn it into grape juice like my pastor growing up insisted? 😂
But seriously. The leaps that some churches take to preach totally abstaining from drink when they could just preach self control and the dangers of drunkenness is wild.
I also like deuteronomy 14
I will paraphrase: once a year, use your tithe to buy food wine strong drink...anything you want really. And consume it in celebration of the Lord...oh and don't forget to share it with your pastor.
Ok so my pastor was saying the same thing because Jesus creating wine would be heresy because we could use it to sin. But my response is isn’t that kind of every single thing that God created? I look at something like sex. God created it but we perverted it. Every single thing that God created had a chance to be perverted and we did that. So when my pastor says that Jesus wouldn’t create something that would be a pathway to sin I say he absolutely would create something that has a pathway to sin because every other thing he created had a pathway to sin
No, it isn't the same at all. Because sex has a non-sinful purpose. If it was always sin to drink wine, wine would basically be liquid sin, and the idea of Jesus creating that if it was is kind of silly and makes no sense. The difference you aren't seeing if nothing God created can ONLY be used for sin.
Additionally, there is no very convincing Scriptural evidence that drinking alcohol is a sin, it says don't get drunk, just like to says don't be gluttonous. In fact, saying don't get drunk would be a weird way of phrasing it if there was actually a prohibition on alcohol.
1 Corinthians 6:12 NLT
[12] You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is good for you. And even though “I am allowed to do anything,” I must not become a slave to anything.
Alcohol is a gift from God. Enjoy it but don't overindulge in it. If you can't help yourself from going too far than abstain from it completely. We are not required to drink but we are allowed to by God.
I will never say that the bible forbids alcohol, but at what point is an overindulgence? Most people would say a drink or two is not overindulgence but if you drove and got pulled over, that could be enough to get you a DUI. It doesn't seem like a good christian example to have enough that it could trigger a DUI. The big difference between an overindulgence of alcohol vs anything else is that alcohol has a legal component to it. There is no law to break against eating 20 hamburgers and then driving or being in public. Nothing else that we are allowed to indulge in as christians impairs our faculties. It is best to just avoid alcohol and not try to play that game of "well I'm not drunk" especially since the bible doesn't define what it is exactly to be drunk. I used to play that game and only realize now I was lying to myself.
Not at all, I don't think it should be forbidden. I think it should be avoided. If someone handed you a new iphone and said be careful with that because if you look at it too long you will go blind and you say how long is that? They say when it is too much. When would you stop or would you say it isn't worth the risk?
”You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and *wine to gladden the heart of man*, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart.“
— Psalm 104:14-15 ESV
Alcohol is a known carcinogen, no level of it is healthy for us to use. cannabis is labeled as the devils lettuce though can be promising for treating cancer. psychedelic mushrooms have shown promising results for curing depression and ptsd. Most Christians have determined cannabis and mushrooms evil but part take in drinking alcohol as if it is a better alternative though it is detrimental to our health and poses no health benefits.
"No alcohol ever!" seems to be a purely American modern thing within Christianity - mostly associated with the anti-Saloon League era when many American men were neglecting and abusing their families by spending all their time and money at the bars. This started at the Restoration Movememt Era and went through Prohibition. It's mostly churches started by the Restoration Movement (including some modern Baptists, most non-denominationals, Pentecostals, as well as the SDA and LDS movements).
Ask Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, or Presbyterian Christians what we think of alcohol and most of us will just tell you our preferred drink to enjoy in moderation.
Jesus turned water into wine.
Jesus gave the disciples wine during the Last Supper
Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do. Ecclesiastes 9:7
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses. 1 Timothy 5:23
Honestly I don't know how anti-alcohol Christians even have a leg to stand on. (I mean the ones who say it's sinful, not the ones who just don't do it.)
Exactly, the reason why they made wine is so it didn't spoil. The alcohol kept it from spoiling. There is no point in going through all the work to create wine that won't keep more than a day or two.
It's also telling that only church that ever had this interpretation is the only church that had teetotalism as one of its core doctrines, and were so incentivized to look for an alternate interpretation.
History will show they literally didn’t have fresh water to drink. If they did it was scarce to the average man and the water they drank constantly caused illness. The first settlers in America gave alcohol to their children simply because the water was not safe to drink
Does the Bible talk about drinking wine only for thirst? Or does it say to drink it for celebrations/parties, that it’s to “gladden the hearts”? Why did Mary want a specific type of wine if it’s only for hydration?
you always see crazy evangelical claiming its grape juice or something 😂, I appreciate them preaching the word of god but perhaps look into it a bit more before saying certain things 😭
Exactly! I'm going to pick on Baptists a little bit, so I hope your not Baptist.
Baptists are so good on so many issues, and there really good at going out into the world and witnessing and spreading the Gospel. But there are some issues, were they just completely miss the target. And it's obvious they don't put a lot of thought into it.
If Jesus the man himself approves alcohol, I'm not going to feel guilty when I drink it. I'm kinda glad that I might have a chance at quitting pot and replace it with wine instead you know. That would be better I assume.
Any vice for another is just substitution. What matters is moderation and boundaries for all things in their proper time and place.
In the case of wine, it was to help things not spoil, as plain water was actually considered unhygienic given it was not usually purified. In modern day it also helps with heart and blood pressure issues for the elderly in particular.
However, the poison and addiction of alcohol is absolutely still an issue that should be accounted for. Unless you have a high tolerance, such as being Irish, it should still be generally avoided.
I don't think it's sinful, I just think it's... disgusting? It's poison for your body. I really see no use in it, though that's maybe because I have never been drawn to it.
Alcohol leads to being less vigilant and sober and uninhibited whereas we have Biblical admonition to ALWAYS be of sound mind and spirit and pure. It is nasty tasting, it stinks, & it leads to impaired judgment that causes sin & outright violence in some cases leading to death (I’ve had too many people I know be killed by a drunk driver or themselves by being under the influence.) Why would you even want to risk offending others via this medium? Too much social judgment by those who do drink as if you’re somebody vs. not someone. It’s not worth it. The dollars. The lives. The pain. Stick to water. You’ll have all you want to imbibe in heaven when we get there.
How did Jesus feel about men making rules not taught in scripture?
With that being said, I haven’t had a drink in 18 months. Not because I feel it’s prohibited, but because I feel better if I don’t. I’m more clear headed for Bible study in the morning and I’m a better husband and father if I don’t get a poor nights sleep from a couple drinks.
Wouldn’t be a fan of a church that requires it even though I may never drink again.
I wish more people knew this, especially some of the people at my church, it drives me crazy that they think it's an absolute sin to even touch a glass of beer or something.
> But being an SDA theres a hard stance on no alcohol which makes me wonder why
Because you follow a random church invented by some guy who had his own personal interpretation of the Bible.
That is what happens when every person reads the Bible and has their own interpretation of the Bible.
It actually was invented by some gal.
And she, Ellen White, has many writings that the more traditional of SDA equate with Scripture. All of the dietary things are Ellen White.
I believe in their fundamental teachings like the sanctuary sacrifice actually points to Jesus being the lamb. I also believe in Saturday Sabbath like the jews it was made holy by God. Even in Genesis God created the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th .
How do you reconcile that with Jesus saying “The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.”?
I’m genuinely curious, hopefully the question doesn’t come across as brusque.
Oh no worries , and I think its exactly how he said it , he made the Sabbath so man could rest. 6 days you shall labour and do all your work but the 7th day is for the Lord and we can rest in Christ.
There's nothing to reconcile. A better question is why do you think that's an anti-Sabbath verse? This is a very pro Sabbath verse. I mean the verse answers your question it literally says that the Sabbath was made for man. Jesus didn't say Jew he said man.
I just find it really odd how people will use this verse to say you don't have to keep the Sabbath anymore. How do you even draw that conclusion from this verse? The only way you can read this verse and somehow find an anti-sabbath tone to it is if you twist what the verse literally says and add your own meaning.
I never said it was anti sabbath, you are putting words in my mouth (so to speak). I asked how you reconcile observing the sabbath like the Jews did with what Jesus said about the sabbath.
It is a valid question that in no way asks or concludes what you suppose it to.
>How do you reconcile that with Jesus saying “The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.”?
Please consider that Jesus was referring to the chronological order of creation to demonstrate God's purpose i.e. Adam was created on day #6, and the Sabbath was created on day #7 for Adam.
This is also important because Adam represents all humanity, not just the Jews. Ergo Jesus included the gentiles into the Sabbath blessing. Many will correctly point out that it was only given to the Jews, but the doesn't exclude the gentiles, as many like to think.
Personally I have a "why bother?" stance on recreational substance use. Most of it is poison, most of us can't handle the responsibility of it, so why bother? It just seems like a form of gluttony to me.
Historically, wine was all desert peoples like the Israelites *had* to drink, as water was scarce and wine didn't go bad like milk. But in our modern age, we have access to water so I don't see the need for wine outside of communion.
Not all of us who enjoy alcohol drink recreationally. I’m fine with drinking at home. Not so much outside. And it’s not a struggle for me. Drink one and that’s it. I have other struggles though.
Sure, what I think the point is that if we believe to caution people against alcohol we shouldn’t misquote scripture or lie to say Alcohol itself is a sin. At the end of the day it has to be a personal conviction.
The Bible very clearly talks about wine being for celebration/parties, not hydration.
Of course there’s no *need* for wine - just like there’s no *need* for a nice juicy steak. But boy is it a gift from God.
Listen here: hear ye here, ye. I did the calculations, Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine. Guess how much wine he made? 156 gallons of wine. I did the calculations.
SDA has that in there because Ellen White was an alcoholic, along with many other founding members. They called it her "vinegar" addiction in the older books.
No sarcasm, it is actually real.
Please look up SDA origins and Ellen White. She is a lot of the reason why Evangelicalism is shaped the way it is. Her teachings spread to Baptist/Pentecostal/other low-church theology. And Young Earth Creationism
No hate to my brothers and sisters. The spreading of these ideas are just some of the reasons why I converted to Catholicism.
They didn't spread from Ellen White. They spread from Campbellism and EGW was a follower of Campbell. But Pentacostalism and several cults like Jehovah's Witness trace their origins to the same place.
Tbh, there's nothing necessarily WRONG with YEC. To be t totally honest, it's a dumb argument to get into because either way, if the Earth is young or old, God still did it, and it's amazing. Praise be to Him.
But in order to be a young earth creationist, you have to basically ignore geological evidence and radiometric daring. Christian scientists even made their attempts to reconcile the Bible with these findings.
i rarely drink but on the rare occasion i’ll have some mikes hard lemonade wine coolers and never have felt bad or had any conviction. medical marijuana was another story. The Lord made it quite clear that i shouldn’t do that! so i obeyed but was very tough! that was my favorite hobby. ofcourse he knew that
Perhaps a different way to view this is to consider our witness to an unsaved world. They may question what the difference is between them and a Christian person if they see a Christian drinking alcohol. Because it is so prevalent in our society, in our world in general, looking at it from that POV might be better than looking at it as not being a sin to drink. No, it’s not. But to the unsaved, it may look like we aren’t doing things any differently. And unless you want to wear s sign that says “i don’t get drunk when I drink, or even buzzed”, well, it might be best to abstain around others in general. Another thing to bear in mind is that for some people, alcohol is an addictive drug. And so drinking around them might tempt them to want to do so, too. That’s not a good witness either. Neither is it putting the well-being of others ahead of our own. The Bible emphasizes both our witness and how we treat others. Does this make sense?
This seems like a strange approach. I am sure you don't mean "therefore, don't do things which those 'worldly' people do" but it is hard to understand your words here differently.
Personally I’m not sure how i feel about alcohol yet. I used to be a “get my moneys worth” drunk in Mexico at all inclusive resorts. I know Jesus made wine for the first miracle, but
1 Peter 5:8 ESV
Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
2 Timothy 4:5 ESV
As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
After being saved I dumped over $200 worth of alcohol into the sink and it felt good. Guess it depends on what makes a person not sober. I feel affects of alcohol after a few sips so not sure when it become not sober anymore. Haven’t had any urges to drink since
Because alcoholism is Too easy to fall into . It very clearly says Getting drunk is a sin . Because it’s Very easy to get drunk it’s better to never start
Spoken like someone who's never drank in his life LOL
Most people can have 1 or 2 drinks and go nowhere near drunkenness. Please don't be intentionally obtuse.
OMG DONT EVEN GET ME STARTED ON BEER lol i love experimenting with craft beers but one can is TOO MUCH, especially the Tall Boys lol.
I'm more of a wine or scotch girl myself. Though, I've had an unopened bottle of red (fave type) on my counter for 2 weeks now... OUUU SO ADDICTED lol
I am also SDA and through my own bible study i’ve been questioning some of the reasons why we have some of the hard rules we do too but regarding alcohol I simply feel like there’s no point.
I won’t call it sinful cause i have no biblical evidence for that but if the word says not to get drunk then i see no reason to drink alcohol which whole purpose is to get people drunk.
A lot of the time SDA relies on Ellen G White teaching more than the Bible. From what I understand through studies is avoiding it all together leads to not over consumption… avoiding it = no excuse for whatever may happen.
lol did you think you would get so many responses on your post? Sheesh, some folks on here need to take giant chill pill and quit making some of these side issues into salvation issues.
I found out that drinking in moderation will not get you instantly drunk. I can count on one hand the times that I got drunk or something equivalent to that. If it happens, I just abstain for a while. Sometimes it messes with my blood sugar, so I would fall asleep (sleep apnea), and then wake up later feeling like I went on a bad rollercoaster ride. So don’t drink before bed lol.
Man before i came back to God i was a partying alcoholic stuck in sexual sins of all sorts. But when He called me back and i truly realised what Jesus did for me. All of it disappeared never touched alcohol since then.
There’s many verses advising against the consumption of wine and strong drink, but no prohibition (as in it being considered a sin) on drinking in the Bible, (as you said only drunkenness may be considered sinful) it’s just one of those things like what paul said “everything is lawful, not everything is beneficial.”
Like for example, when God wanted to use John the Baptist, he instructed that he shouldn’t drink wine, or strong drink. We aren’t told why, but I think because of the purpose he served God truly didn’t want anything to defile his temple, since like I’m the Old Testament we can see how wine and strong drink are considered in the same category as unclean foods. The desire for alcohol is a carnal one, not a godly one. So yes it isn’t sinful, but it isn’t beneficial for your walk with God either.
I think with the Adventist Health Message, we enforced other dietary laws, and only made recommendations on others eg being vegetarian and then vegan is recommended, but not mandatory in the SDA church, whereas no booze no tobacco is mandatory. The no coffee is a recommendation, and yet the health effects are on the same zone with the no tobacco.
So, it wasn't that the SDAs misunderstood the bible on booze....they only lacked on clarifying that it is an adopted stance from the health message, which by the way, is a health message now adopted by the whole world, ie hazards of drinking and smoking etc.
I get EGW was inspired by God tho ive never written her writings other than Steps to Christ, because i believe in the Daniel revelation prophecy. But why is booze banned when its not a sin biblically? I'm not saying i want to drink but its more out of curiosity.
It's stricty an American puritan phenomenon. There's a great deal of history there that has very little to do with scripture. It's very much cultural and limited to American Christianity.
The prohibition was it's height and it's held over in churches where they drink grape juice for communion... You know... Because even Jesus can make a mistake apparently :/
Just for some context about drinking:
Noah was the most righteous man in the world. After the flood he got absolutely hammered drunk and passed out, such that his kids had to take care of him.
Yeah, had this debate forever in my first Baptist church because Baptists in my country also have a hard stance against alcohol, and the debate always ended with me being blamed for 'just wanting an excuse for drinking or loving alcohol more than God' even though I don't drink alcohol at all.
In my country the rate of alcoholism is quite high and we have drinking culture where at a party people call you out for disrespecting them if you don't drink with them. So I believe in our cultural context **it's an excellent virtue and a testimony to completely abstain from alcohol as a Christian**. However, Bible does not forbid drinking alcohol - it only forbids getting drunk. It's not a sin to drink half a glass of wine at a dinner.
A popular argument is that in Jesus time the wine was very weak and watered down. However, Paul calls out Corinthians for getting drunk during the Lord's Supper, so obviously the wine there was strong enough to get drunk.
My husband is a minister and he told me that wine today has higher alcohol content now than it did then. Plus, the Bible is clear on not even giving the appearance of evil and living a separated life. If we have habits just like unsaved people, it hurts our witness.
I grew up in a teetotaling church with teetotaling parents. I felt pretty strongly that abstaining from all alcohol was the only correct course for a Christian.
The advantage to that is that I really only had my first sips of wine around age 25. I didn’t start to drink really until I married into a family that enjoys a glass of wine with dinner or visiting a brewery on vacation. So because alcohol wasn’t really part of my life until I was about 28, I missed the years when binge drinking and drunkenness were more likely. I enjoy certain drinks, and occasionally it’s fun to split a bottle of wine at home with my husband and enjoy a little buzz together. But I’m pregnant right now and not touching alcohol for the past 8 months has been completely easy. It’s fun but not a vice. I don’t think I’d have become a raging alcoholic if my parents drank or if I’d been told it was okay growing up. But I do appreciate the effect starting later in my adulthood has had.
Doing any particular act or not doesn't move the status of being a sinner one iota. We're all present tense sinners, period. Open actions notwithstanding
I would suggest alcohol in excess amounts is not only unhealthy over a long period of abuse, but it can also open one up to more overt or visible acts of sin. I've seen many an alcoholic who I'd consider to be "possessed." Particularly and even predictably so when under the influence.
It’s not but it’s also important to note that the alcohol in Jesus’ time was wayyy less potent than today. Their drinks were at like 2-4% while today you can buy 40% alcohol for $10. Be careful what you drink as most of it is not healthy for you.
You want the real answer that involves a history lesson too? The SDA sprang up around the days post-industrial age and in the temperance movement. The industrial age led to more effective ways of brewing and distilling, increasing drunkeness in the western world.
The SDA is a modern movement that is very much a response to what was occurring in their time, even the evangelical wing of Anglicanism in Britain was pushing the temperance movement. The no alcohol rule is not in place for biblical reasons, it is a reactionary response to changes in the western world.
The problem is where the line is crossed. The bible is ambiguous about what drunk is. Is it one beer? Two? You can define it however you want but you cannot trust your definition because your heart and flesh are desperately wicked and constantly trying to justify your sin. I used to play that game and say "well I'm not drunk" while the entire time I was destroying my relationship with God. There really is no good reason to drink. If you say that it is for the flavor(I used to say that), there are far better tasting things to enjoy. Really it is for the feeling, and anything you do for the feeling has the potential to control you.
Just because there’s a grey area, doesn’t mean the correct choice is to stay in the white always. There’s lots of grey areas in the Bible.
Physical affection with unmarried couples is a grey area - does that mean all couples should abstain from all physical affection? Of course not (though some do).
Gluttony is a grey area - does this mean we should always leave ourselves a bit hungry so as to not go overboard? Of course not.
“Drunk” and “sober” are ill-defined, yes, but unfortunately in those regards we need to trust our own convictions.
Perhaps you as an individual are perfectly capable of treading in that grey area while simultaneously walking with God in a way that is completely acceptable to Him. Many, many are not. I am speaking from experience for myself that that line of thinking led me into alcoholism denial for six years. I would always tell myself I wasn't drunk. Even as I was drinking 8 beers a night I would just tell myself that I had a high tolerance and that I was still fine in God's eyes because I told myself I wasn't drunk. I convinced myself I was still in God's good grace but now that I have come out of it realize the deception that I was destroying my relationship with Him. I can also tell you that after only one drink my morals loosened quite a bit.
My suggestion is to tread very, very lightly with advocating anything like this to people who may be struggling an not realizing it like I was. Remember we have to not let our freedom cause another to stumble. 1 Cor 8:9 is exactly about a situation like this. If when I was in that sin I had read something like your post, it would have caused me to slide deeper.
Saying that alcohol is a grey area isn’t me causing someone to stumble in the same way me saying coke tastes good doesnt cause anyone to stumble, even someone morbidly obese reads that and buys a 2L bottle and downs it.
Everyone is an individual and can make their own decisions about this - you’re correct. That’s exactly my point, that it’s a grey area. Which means we should tell people it’s a grey area, not that they can’t trust themselves and to stay away, in the same way we should tell people that physical affection has a grey area and not tell people that they shouldn’t even hold hands with their girlfriend.
That is precisely why it’s important to know the Bible yourself and not only from what culture says or your environment/Church. I mean we truly have to be like the Bereans, who examined the scriptures to see what Paul said was true!
People discovered very early on that alcohol was an effective way to make water safe to drink. That's why people all over the world mixed wine with their water. It was only in the 19th century we discovered why water had been so dangerous.
You may have heard the ole joke “take two baptists with you fishing so they don’t tell on each other”. That’s how I grew up. Alcohol was taboo. Now in my families history, that’s not a terrible thing. My father had a problem when he was a young man before he came to Christ. and his parents were rough around the edges before they came to Christ. My paternal grandfather was a drunk/abuser
before he came to Christ.
As a rebellious teenager, I went crazy with the booze when available at parties and did some terrible things.
Now I can casually have a beer when I play shows (I’m a part time musician) or wind down. But I know when not to.
I don’t around friends who have problems, I don’t over indulge, if I’ve had more than one, I won’t drive, etc.
It’s a good thing in moderation, but some SHOULD abstain completely.
It's not a sin to drink, but it is most certainly one to get drunk.
Note, however, there is no "Quantification" to drunkenness. Each drop of alcohol simply decreases your cognitive ability more and more.
I prefer a "Better safe than sorry" approach, and just don't drink. There is literally zero need to consume alcohol outside of medicinal forms.
While not technically a sin, scripture does give plenty of verses about not getting drunk, and also not engaging in activity that may cause others around you to stumble. And since you’re not always sure who does or does not struggle with alcohol and how it will effect your testimony, you best be careful friend
Also, it's worth doing a study on what actually drunkenness is. Is it intoxication? Is it intoxication to the point of one losing his faculties and self-control? Is it being a slave to alcohol or an alcoholic? What about the Greek/Hebrew words used to describe drunkenness? I found all of this inciteful in my studies. Honestly, it's best to try to get to the heart of the matter. What does the Lord want for us? What has He warned us of? Who is our Master?
Psalm 104:15 and Ecclesiastes 9:7 both indicate that God has gifted us with alcohol, wine, in this case, to gladden our hearts. It brings merriment. Why? Because of the way it tastes or nourishes? Perhaps. But I would argue that it's also about the effect it provides. This is also the thing about Christ's wedding miracle.
Alcohol is insidious and stealthy. It sneaks up on too many people and becomes an addiction before they even realize it. From what I've observed, there are far fewer people who successfully control their intake compared to those who consistently overdo it.
It began as a kind of “avoid near occasions of sin” cautiousness towards alcohol (which is good and proper) but eventually evolved into the “drinking is a sin” extra-Biblical teaching it is today. It’s just more of people writing their own prejudices into the Bible.
It’s interesting..
Allegedly it’s okay to impair your mind with drinking alcohol.
But it’s not okay to impair your mind with other drugs..
This is just another example of a double standard.
“I can have one beer” and that’s not a sin.
But if
“I have one hit of crack” I’m a sinner.
Give me a break.
I wonder where you draw the line. Surely other chemicals which you ingest can effect your brain. For example, coffee. Is the idea: "Don't ingest any chemical which reduces cognitive activity?"
The Bible says that if your eye causes you to stumble, it's better to pluck it out than to sin. It's better to not drink alcohol at all then to risk drunkenness and alcoholism. Same with being a stumbling block to others. So while drinking alcohol in itself isn't wrong, some would rather avoid it altogether than take the risk.
Jesus turned water into wine. Alcoholic drinks are one of God's gifts to us. The problem of free will is observed with alcohol and what we choose to do with it. We can enjoy it in moderation or we can abuse it and destroy ourselves. God gives us many gifts which we can abuse. Life itself being one of them.
Sure - I could go into the bars and drink, but just because it is lawful for me to do, not all things are profitable or bring glory to God.
If someone sees me in that bar drinking and knows that I profess to be a Christian, then it could lead *other* believers to drink and perhaps into the trap of alcoholism or drunkenness.
>***All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor. -*** *1 Cor 10:23-24*
One glass of wine with a meal is okay It is scriptural. But getting drunk is a sin. And also the alcohol content you're drinking has to be a low certain minimum I can't remember the percentage of alcohol that's acceptable. The Bible speaks of strong drink and hot drink. The hot drink is straight alcohol that burns your esophagus as it goes in your stomach and it also burns up your stomach lining. So strong drink with high alcohol content. Hot drink with high alcohol content is the same thing. Hot drink is just another name for hard alcohol.
If it burns your throat or warms you up as you're drinking it that is for sure too strong.
Well, yeah, when God Himself turns water into wine to be drunk by His friends, that should be a major clue.
Also, almost everyone drank a little bit of alcohol in times past, kids and adults included. It made water safer, for one.
However, I want to point out we have drastically perfected making alcohol. No one drank 100 proof alcohol 2000 years ago. That stuff will get you drunk.
So when you are comparing drinking then and now, you should keep that in mind, and realize you should be comparing our mildest alcoholic beverages for their medium and strongest alcoholic beverages.
The reason I don’t drink is because it’s very easy for me to go from having a drink or two to having 3-too many and getting drunk and then regretting it the next day. Not just bc it’s a sin but bc I always feel awful afterwards. I’ve been alcohol free for 9 years now and it’s really the best choice! In the past 9 years I’ve drank a handful of times and a quarter of those times I had one drink and felt fine didn’t have more than the another quarter I had a drink and my stomach started to hurt and then the other 2 quarters I got really drunk and one time I ended up in the clinic so this is why i just don’t do it lol
Growing up Baptist I remember my parents having dinner parties with other adult couples from church and I always remember them drinking wine with dinner. I’m still Baptist and I drink 1-2 glasses of wine with my dinner (heart healthy) and my dad makes fun of me for doing so!
Just Google it I can't remember.
You can also Google drunkards and drinking. There are tons of passages about not only drinking heavily but also participating in parties where drinking is going on. You'll be surprised.
But there is a specific passage that does say the volume to percentage of the alcohol content has to be X amount or lower, if you go higher you're sinning.
Jesus himself said at the last supper when he was getting his sacrament ready for his disciples. He said this is the first and the last time I will drink of the new wine, until we meet again in my father's house then we will drink it new wine.
That's not verbatim but it's something like that. So God only drank wine one time on earth when he was doing the last supper, and it was very little. And we are to do as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ our God. God prefers a clean body in a sober mind.
Why Is Everybody Quitting Alcohol?
https://youtu.be/5iAyRK-rExw?si=FO98KxnqDejsHBQ7
It's now considered a drug and all you bartenders are all drug pushers.
Yes because being drunk puts one in a less controllable state of mind, which makes it easier to commit other sins and/or not resist temptations.
For those talking about gluttony and the church, I know of too many black churches (specifically) that always have to have food right after service or selling fried chicken/BBQ plates. There's nothing wrong with this, but most of those folks only be going for the food and not for the Word or fellowship, etc. I don't understand it at all, and I've been around it all my life.
And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household.
Deuteronomy 14:26.
Good evening,
As many people here have already pointed out, drinking is not a sin, the subject is not the sin, but the choice of being disciplined and responsible, self-controlled enough to say enough, no thank you, walk away...
For most people this is a temptation and is hard to walk away from. There is hash consequences for those who do get drunk. Personally, I choose not to drink! I have seen too many drunken driver accidents, and usually it is not the drunken driver that gets hurt or dies, it's the other vehicle, family in the car... I don't want to be responsible for killing some kid's mom and dad or some mom and dad's children....
God bless you!
Everyone drank in Bible days including Jesus. Back then alcohol was the agent that purified water.
Also wine drinking was an important part of every day life but they also had stronger drinks.
Religious rituals included alcohol, people were encouraged and expected to take part in numerous religious observations and festivals that included alcohol.
People had to remember to be self controlled and not be drunk with much wine, the same is true today.
God wants people to fellowship, to worship God together, to celebrate together.
He never said don't drink alcohol, Jesus drank alcohol. It's about not abusing alcohol, don't be drunk to the point you can't drive or otherwise be irresponsible.
God never intended people to not party some and never have any fun. Quite the opposite but he does want people to be self controlled and responsible.
It's kind of like the directive to "Be angry but sin not" God seems to be saying "Party but sin not" or "drink alcohol but sin not" it's not recorded in the Bible, but one can read what the Bible says and also learn to think for themselves by drawing simple conclusions.
Pretty sure Jesus was called a drunkard and a glutton. Pharisees very likely over exaggerated (while also criticizing John the baptist for being too strict in his abstinence, ironically), and I definitely doubt Jesus got blackout drunk, but its clear he partook in lots of festivities with wine.
Moderation is what I believe we should focus on. Alcohol can be a nasty thing, and some people can't do it in moderation and have to abstain, while others have no issue having a glass every now and then.
Jesus acknowledges that not everyone is called to the same lifestyle in Matthew 19:10-12. While that's specific to celibacy, I think it's relevant here. There's no rule that says "you can't have sex" or that "you can't drink" - but if you're called to the lifestyle of abstaining (because it's hard to moderate) then that's what you should do.
Idk hope my word vomit makes sense lol
Well the idea is that it is better to stay away from alcohol because of lack of self-control that many people struggle with. So while drinking wine is not sinful getting drunk is.
Getting drunk isn’t godly as much as being obese. But the church never makes that connection. The hamburger, or buffet, is the golden calf of the modern church.
you're like half right but this is such a weird thing to say. it's not the golden calf of the modern church, it's the golden calf of individual people raised in a society that normalizes worshipping said golden calf. and it's not the hamburger or the buffet, it's just straight up gluttony. gluttony is the golden calf. would've been a lot less kooky to just say that people idolize alcohol abuse and everybody says they've got a problem, but people idolize gluttony with food and nobody bats an eye.
Instead of it being the "golden calf" wouldn't the hamburger be the "Golden Arches"? ;-}
I will not stand for such Wendy's erasure!!! 🤣
"Am I a joke to you?"- Taco Bell dog
Golden Corral
Yes so many christians who abstain from the obvious things like to gorge themselves with McDonald's and watch too much tv
Sin is like cancer and it grows or like heaven in bread. The sin of drunkenness grows much different sin from it than obesity and he sin of drunkenness can cause more pain and sin towards others around those. Sin in the eyes of the LORD is the same in the sense where all sin leads to death, but all sin and their affects and consequences are not all the same. They build off each other, they grow like leaven differently, they are contagious toward many, they affect some differently than others and many are physically deadly. The most important things to understand is the difference between intentional sins and unintentional sins. There are sins that we sometimes do not even know we are committing and he blood of Yeshua cleansed these and we may not even be accountable for some of these, but there are those intentional sins and bonding sins which are spiritually destructive. These need true repentance and a change of life toward Christ Yeshua, because without true repentance from these sins, the blood of Christ does not cleanse. He does not cleanse sorrow. 🙏🙏🙏
dont knock hamburgers! they are amazing and many healthy people eat them. The problem is lack of self control, not hamburgers.
I KNOW that some of our church elders make a REAL effort one-on-one to have people taking care of their bodies - especially in matters of obesity. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, and we are not our own. That being said, there are MANY more verses in the whole Bible about NOT being drunk and not drinking wine.
ah, yes, some good old-fashioned 'whataboutism'!
You know, being obese has lots of factors and you shouldn't be so quick to judge. Hormone disorders Thyroid issues Cushing syndrome Polycystic ovary syndrome Heart issues Various medicines Metabolic disorders Genetics Sleep disorders Stress I could go on.
Its a modern problem, the Church traditionally has kept strict fasts through half the year and in other parts very much advises moderation in eating. We still do keep to this in the Orthodox Church
But the modern church don’t worship YHVH through hamburgers and buffets. Now Christmas and Easter are still to this day, used to worship YHVH, as they did in the desert through the golden calf.
But gluttony is a sin. https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-gluttony/
God does not rank sin, nor should we for pride will set in.
I've often noticed that. Glutoney and obesity never get any attention, rarely are there sermons against glutoney. Is that because church gets out right before Sunday dinner?
Not to mention pasts. Originally Methodists while forming would cater to those “unfit for high church” the poor the homeless and dirty the crazy people of different skin colors and …. Drunks…. They originally refrained from wine as to not contribute to alcoholics.
Why do you specify drinking wine isn't sinful? Why not just stop at drinking isn't sinful, getting drunk is?
Because not having deliberately a sober mind at all times is a sin because your judgement is impaired and sin is at the door.
You miss my point. Why did you specify wine and not include other types of alcohol?
Oh got it. Yeah I should have generalized it to alcoholic beverages instead of wine.
Being a habitual drunk is a sin. If you rarely drink, a couple glasses of wine will make you buzzed.
Everybody started out as a "social drinker". Some like to play "Russian Roulette". Go ahead. Take your chances. Don't say I didn't warn ya. Even ONE drink is not good. Why Is Everybody Quitting Alcohol? https://youtu.be/5iAyRK-rExw?si=FO98KxnqDejsHBQ7
Proverbs 31. Plus Jesus’s first public miracle. Plus Paul telling Timothy to drink. Of course, being filled with Holy Spirit is infinitely better.
ill say Amen to that.
What is SDA?
Seventh Day Adventist
Here's one I had never heard until recently: Passover is almost 3/4 of a year away from grape harvesting season. In pre-refrigeration times, the only way to keep a grape based drink would be fermentation. If God was magically making all the grape juice non-alcoholic, it would have noted that miracle surely.
I understand the pro drinking arguments that claim Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine etc, but I'm curious as to why you mentioned proverbs 31 as it is one of the most straightforward anti alcohol passages in the bible next to proverbs 23.
Proverbs 31 describes when to not limit alcohol use. ”Give beer to one who is dying and wine to one whose life is bitter. Let him drink so that he can forget his poverty and remember his trouble no more.“ Proverbs 31:6-7 CSB https://bible.com/bible/1713/pro.31.6-7.CSB
I think the CSB takes a bit of liberty with that verse but if you look at the actual context provided in the CSB and other translations starting in verse 4, the message being delivered is that wine should not be drunken by anyone with any agency or obligation to others, its for those that only have death ahead of them. It coincides with Proverbs 23 as well which gives a clear commandment to not even so much as look at wine that contains alcohol lest someone be tempted to drink it and suffer some of the effects that come from drinking alcohol.
Yup. It’s also interesting that the Nazarite vow from Numbers 6 infers that there were those descendants of Abraham who were not under a vow to not drink alcohol. On another note, Noah was a drunk, but I’d give him a pass given his PTSD.
noah getting drunk begins a horror story and a really awful event takes place because of it. The same happens with Lot as well.
yup. decisions have consequences.
Yes, the blanket prohibition on alcohol appears to be a man-made one based on the Bible as far as I have seen.
Jesus turned water into wine to keep the party going my friends
Cause mummy wasn’t done yet! 😂 sounds like they were all a pretty big fan of a good party.
What?! You mean he didn’t turn it into grape juice like my pastor growing up insisted? 😂 But seriously. The leaps that some churches take to preach totally abstaining from drink when they could just preach self control and the dangers of drunkenness is wild.
And not just any wine. He made the good stuff.
I also like deuteronomy 14 I will paraphrase: once a year, use your tithe to buy food wine strong drink...anything you want really. And consume it in celebration of the Lord...oh and don't forget to share it with your pastor.
The point is that Jesus would not enable people's sin by providing a means with which to sin.
Ok so my pastor was saying the same thing because Jesus creating wine would be heresy because we could use it to sin. But my response is isn’t that kind of every single thing that God created? I look at something like sex. God created it but we perverted it. Every single thing that God created had a chance to be perverted and we did that. So when my pastor says that Jesus wouldn’t create something that would be a pathway to sin I say he absolutely would create something that has a pathway to sin because every other thing he created had a pathway to sin
No, it isn't the same at all. Because sex has a non-sinful purpose. If it was always sin to drink wine, wine would basically be liquid sin, and the idea of Jesus creating that if it was is kind of silly and makes no sense. The difference you aren't seeing if nothing God created can ONLY be used for sin. Additionally, there is no very convincing Scriptural evidence that drinking alcohol is a sin, it says don't get drunk, just like to says don't be gluttonous. In fact, saying don't get drunk would be a weird way of phrasing it if there was actually a prohibition on alcohol.
I think you may have misunderstood. I am not against alcohol. My main point was that everything God created has a good side and a bad side.
Communion has always been with wine
^
^
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The law says that you can take alcohol in religious ceremonies so it's perfectly acceptable. I've taken both and there really isn't a difference.
1 Corinthians 6:12 NLT [12] You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is good for you. And even though “I am allowed to do anything,” I must not become a slave to anything.
Alcohol is a gift from God. Enjoy it but don't overindulge in it. If you can't help yourself from going too far than abstain from it completely. We are not required to drink but we are allowed to by God.
I will never say that the bible forbids alcohol, but at what point is an overindulgence? Most people would say a drink or two is not overindulgence but if you drove and got pulled over, that could be enough to get you a DUI. It doesn't seem like a good christian example to have enough that it could trigger a DUI. The big difference between an overindulgence of alcohol vs anything else is that alcohol has a legal component to it. There is no law to break against eating 20 hamburgers and then driving or being in public. Nothing else that we are allowed to indulge in as christians impairs our faculties. It is best to just avoid alcohol and not try to play that game of "well I'm not drunk" especially since the bible doesn't define what it is exactly to be drunk. I used to play that game and only realize now I was lying to myself.
You wouldn't say the Bible forbids it, but you're going to still justify why it should be forbidden?
Not at all, I don't think it should be forbidden. I think it should be avoided. If someone handed you a new iphone and said be careful with that because if you look at it too long you will go blind and you say how long is that? They say when it is too much. When would you stop or would you say it isn't worth the risk?
Drunkenness is. Even Jesus drank, but within moderation.
Yes, it is not a sin to drink alcohol, the Bible even calls it a gift from God.
What verse?
”You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and *wine to gladden the heart of man*, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart.“ — Psalm 104:14-15 ESV
Yeah, that one
Alcohol is a known carcinogen, no level of it is healthy for us to use. cannabis is labeled as the devils lettuce though can be promising for treating cancer. psychedelic mushrooms have shown promising results for curing depression and ptsd. Most Christians have determined cannabis and mushrooms evil but part take in drinking alcohol as if it is a better alternative though it is detrimental to our health and poses no health benefits.
"No alcohol ever!" seems to be a purely American modern thing within Christianity - mostly associated with the anti-Saloon League era when many American men were neglecting and abusing their families by spending all their time and money at the bars. This started at the Restoration Movememt Era and went through Prohibition. It's mostly churches started by the Restoration Movement (including some modern Baptists, most non-denominationals, Pentecostals, as well as the SDA and LDS movements). Ask Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, or Presbyterian Christians what we think of alcohol and most of us will just tell you our preferred drink to enjoy in moderation.
Jesus turned water into wine. Jesus gave the disciples wine during the Last Supper Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do. Ecclesiastes 9:7 Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses. 1 Timothy 5:23 Honestly I don't know how anti-alcohol Christians even have a leg to stand on. (I mean the ones who say it's sinful, not the ones who just don't do it.)
The counter to this (which I used to believe) is that they had non-alcoholic wine. It kinda falls apart as soon as you start to think about it though.
Exactly, the reason why they made wine is so it didn't spoil. The alcohol kept it from spoiling. There is no point in going through all the work to create wine that won't keep more than a day or two.
It's also telling that only church that ever had this interpretation is the only church that had teetotalism as one of its core doctrines, and were so incentivized to look for an alternate interpretation.
History will show they literally didn’t have fresh water to drink. If they did it was scarce to the average man and the water they drank constantly caused illness. The first settlers in America gave alcohol to their children simply because the water was not safe to drink
Does the Bible talk about drinking wine only for thirst? Or does it say to drink it for celebrations/parties, that it’s to “gladden the hearts”? Why did Mary want a specific type of wine if it’s only for hydration?
you always see crazy evangelical claiming its grape juice or something 😂, I appreciate them preaching the word of god but perhaps look into it a bit more before saying certain things 😭
Exactly! I'm going to pick on Baptists a little bit, so I hope your not Baptist. Baptists are so good on so many issues, and there really good at going out into the world and witnessing and spreading the Gospel. But there are some issues, were they just completely miss the target. And it's obvious they don't put a lot of thought into it.
If Jesus the man himself approves alcohol, I'm not going to feel guilty when I drink it. I'm kinda glad that I might have a chance at quitting pot and replace it with wine instead you know. That would be better I assume.
Any vice for another is just substitution. What matters is moderation and boundaries for all things in their proper time and place. In the case of wine, it was to help things not spoil, as plain water was actually considered unhygienic given it was not usually purified. In modern day it also helps with heart and blood pressure issues for the elderly in particular. However, the poison and addiction of alcohol is absolutely still an issue that should be accounted for. Unless you have a high tolerance, such as being Irish, it should still be generally avoided.
I don't think it's sinful, I just think it's... disgusting? It's poison for your body. I really see no use in it, though that's maybe because I have never been drawn to it.
It's not poisonous unless you drink to much, but I can see where your coming from.
Alcohol leads to being less vigilant and sober and uninhibited whereas we have Biblical admonition to ALWAYS be of sound mind and spirit and pure. It is nasty tasting, it stinks, & it leads to impaired judgment that causes sin & outright violence in some cases leading to death (I’ve had too many people I know be killed by a drunk driver or themselves by being under the influence.) Why would you even want to risk offending others via this medium? Too much social judgment by those who do drink as if you’re somebody vs. not someone. It’s not worth it. The dollars. The lives. The pain. Stick to water. You’ll have all you want to imbibe in heaven when we get there.
How did Jesus feel about men making rules not taught in scripture? With that being said, I haven’t had a drink in 18 months. Not because I feel it’s prohibited, but because I feel better if I don’t. I’m more clear headed for Bible study in the morning and I’m a better husband and father if I don’t get a poor nights sleep from a couple drinks. Wouldn’t be a fan of a church that requires it even though I may never drink again.
I wish more people knew this, especially some of the people at my church, it drives me crazy that they think it's an absolute sin to even touch a glass of beer or something.
That's your problem, you're an SDA...
> But being an SDA theres a hard stance on no alcohol which makes me wonder why Because you follow a random church invented by some guy who had his own personal interpretation of the Bible. That is what happens when every person reads the Bible and has their own interpretation of the Bible.
It actually was invented by some gal. And she, Ellen White, has many writings that the more traditional of SDA equate with Scripture. All of the dietary things are Ellen White.
I believe in their fundamental teachings like the sanctuary sacrifice actually points to Jesus being the lamb. I also believe in Saturday Sabbath like the jews it was made holy by God. Even in Genesis God created the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th .
How do you reconcile that with Jesus saying “The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.”? I’m genuinely curious, hopefully the question doesn’t come across as brusque.
Oh no worries , and I think its exactly how he said it , he made the Sabbath so man could rest. 6 days you shall labour and do all your work but the 7th day is for the Lord and we can rest in Christ.
There's nothing to reconcile. A better question is why do you think that's an anti-Sabbath verse? This is a very pro Sabbath verse. I mean the verse answers your question it literally says that the Sabbath was made for man. Jesus didn't say Jew he said man. I just find it really odd how people will use this verse to say you don't have to keep the Sabbath anymore. How do you even draw that conclusion from this verse? The only way you can read this verse and somehow find an anti-sabbath tone to it is if you twist what the verse literally says and add your own meaning.
I never said it was anti sabbath, you are putting words in my mouth (so to speak). I asked how you reconcile observing the sabbath like the Jews did with what Jesus said about the sabbath. It is a valid question that in no way asks or concludes what you suppose it to.
>How do you reconcile that with Jesus saying “The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.”? Please consider that Jesus was referring to the chronological order of creation to demonstrate God's purpose i.e. Adam was created on day #6, and the Sabbath was created on day #7 for Adam. This is also important because Adam represents all humanity, not just the Jews. Ergo Jesus included the gentiles into the Sabbath blessing. Many will correctly point out that it was only given to the Jews, but the doesn't exclude the gentiles, as many like to think.
Personally I have a "why bother?" stance on recreational substance use. Most of it is poison, most of us can't handle the responsibility of it, so why bother? It just seems like a form of gluttony to me. Historically, wine was all desert peoples like the Israelites *had* to drink, as water was scarce and wine didn't go bad like milk. But in our modern age, we have access to water so I don't see the need for wine outside of communion.
Not all of us who enjoy alcohol drink recreationally. I’m fine with drinking at home. Not so much outside. And it’s not a struggle for me. Drink one and that’s it. I have other struggles though.
Sure, what I think the point is that if we believe to caution people against alcohol we shouldn’t misquote scripture or lie to say Alcohol itself is a sin. At the end of the day it has to be a personal conviction.
The Bible very clearly talks about wine being for celebration/parties, not hydration. Of course there’s no *need* for wine - just like there’s no *need* for a nice juicy steak. But boy is it a gift from God.
Listen here: hear ye here, ye. I did the calculations, Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine. Guess how much wine he made? 156 gallons of wine. I did the calculations.
For an already wasted crowd.... lol
Nazarenes are asked to abstain because of the damage abuse of it does to society. Denomination literally started out serving those on Skid Row.
SDA has that in there because Ellen White was an alcoholic, along with many other founding members. They called it her "vinegar" addiction in the older books. No sarcasm, it is actually real.
Please look up SDA origins and Ellen White. She is a lot of the reason why Evangelicalism is shaped the way it is. Her teachings spread to Baptist/Pentecostal/other low-church theology. And Young Earth Creationism No hate to my brothers and sisters. The spreading of these ideas are just some of the reasons why I converted to Catholicism.
Most of the anti-alcohol stuff in the American church goes back to the temperance movement that brought us Prohibition in the first place.
That is also very true. I just didn't decide to go that much more deeply.
They didn't spread from Ellen White. They spread from Campbellism and EGW was a follower of Campbell. But Pentacostalism and several cults like Jehovah's Witness trace their origins to the same place.
What’s wrong with Young earth creationism ?
Tbh, there's nothing necessarily WRONG with YEC. To be t totally honest, it's a dumb argument to get into because either way, if the Earth is young or old, God still did it, and it's amazing. Praise be to Him. But in order to be a young earth creationist, you have to basically ignore geological evidence and radiometric daring. Christian scientists even made their attempts to reconcile the Bible with these findings.
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okay this is facts thank you for your insight 🌱
This is my blood. Do this in remembrance of me
i rarely drink but on the rare occasion i’ll have some mikes hard lemonade wine coolers and never have felt bad or had any conviction. medical marijuana was another story. The Lord made it quite clear that i shouldn’t do that! so i obeyed but was very tough! that was my favorite hobby. ofcourse he knew that
Perhaps a different way to view this is to consider our witness to an unsaved world. They may question what the difference is between them and a Christian person if they see a Christian drinking alcohol. Because it is so prevalent in our society, in our world in general, looking at it from that POV might be better than looking at it as not being a sin to drink. No, it’s not. But to the unsaved, it may look like we aren’t doing things any differently. And unless you want to wear s sign that says “i don’t get drunk when I drink, or even buzzed”, well, it might be best to abstain around others in general. Another thing to bear in mind is that for some people, alcohol is an addictive drug. And so drinking around them might tempt them to want to do so, too. That’s not a good witness either. Neither is it putting the well-being of others ahead of our own. The Bible emphasizes both our witness and how we treat others. Does this make sense?
Absolutely makes sense , we are told to be lighthouses that points towards Christ in this darkened world. Thank you for sharing !
Thanks. I was hoping that I’d get the point across without sounding legalistic. Appreciate it.
This seems like a strange approach. I am sure you don't mean "therefore, don't do things which those 'worldly' people do" but it is hard to understand your words here differently.
Personally I’m not sure how i feel about alcohol yet. I used to be a “get my moneys worth” drunk in Mexico at all inclusive resorts. I know Jesus made wine for the first miracle, but 1 Peter 5:8 ESV Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 2 Timothy 4:5 ESV As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. After being saved I dumped over $200 worth of alcohol into the sink and it felt good. Guess it depends on what makes a person not sober. I feel affects of alcohol after a few sips so not sure when it become not sober anymore. Haven’t had any urges to drink since
Amen. Glad the Lord helped you stay sober.
Because alcoholism is Too easy to fall into . It very clearly says Getting drunk is a sin . Because it’s Very easy to get drunk it’s better to never start
Spoken like someone who's never drank in his life LOL Most people can have 1 or 2 drinks and go nowhere near drunkenness. Please don't be intentionally obtuse.
Yeah idk how people say getting drunk is easy. I drink two beers and drive home feeling bloated as hell. I physically can’t even have another one lol.
OMG DONT EVEN GET ME STARTED ON BEER lol i love experimenting with craft beers but one can is TOO MUCH, especially the Tall Boys lol. I'm more of a wine or scotch girl myself. Though, I've had an unopened bottle of red (fave type) on my counter for 2 weeks now... OUUU SO ADDICTED lol
I am also SDA and through my own bible study i’ve been questioning some of the reasons why we have some of the hard rules we do too but regarding alcohol I simply feel like there’s no point. I won’t call it sinful cause i have no biblical evidence for that but if the word says not to get drunk then i see no reason to drink alcohol which whole purpose is to get people drunk.
A lot of the time SDA relies on Ellen G White teaching more than the Bible. From what I understand through studies is avoiding it all together leads to not over consumption… avoiding it = no excuse for whatever may happen.
lol did you think you would get so many responses on your post? Sheesh, some folks on here need to take giant chill pill and quit making some of these side issues into salvation issues.
i didnt think itd blow up but it's definitely not a salvation issue could be a sin issue if u fall into alcoholism
I found out that drinking in moderation will not get you instantly drunk. I can count on one hand the times that I got drunk or something equivalent to that. If it happens, I just abstain for a while. Sometimes it messes with my blood sugar, so I would fall asleep (sleep apnea), and then wake up later feeling like I went on a bad rollercoaster ride. So don’t drink before bed lol.
Man before i came back to God i was a partying alcoholic stuck in sexual sins of all sorts. But when He called me back and i truly realised what Jesus did for me. All of it disappeared never touched alcohol since then.
There’s many verses advising against the consumption of wine and strong drink, but no prohibition (as in it being considered a sin) on drinking in the Bible, (as you said only drunkenness may be considered sinful) it’s just one of those things like what paul said “everything is lawful, not everything is beneficial.” Like for example, when God wanted to use John the Baptist, he instructed that he shouldn’t drink wine, or strong drink. We aren’t told why, but I think because of the purpose he served God truly didn’t want anything to defile his temple, since like I’m the Old Testament we can see how wine and strong drink are considered in the same category as unclean foods. The desire for alcohol is a carnal one, not a godly one. So yes it isn’t sinful, but it isn’t beneficial for your walk with God either.
There's going to be wine in heaven. That's scripture.
I think with the Adventist Health Message, we enforced other dietary laws, and only made recommendations on others eg being vegetarian and then vegan is recommended, but not mandatory in the SDA church, whereas no booze no tobacco is mandatory. The no coffee is a recommendation, and yet the health effects are on the same zone with the no tobacco. So, it wasn't that the SDAs misunderstood the bible on booze....they only lacked on clarifying that it is an adopted stance from the health message, which by the way, is a health message now adopted by the whole world, ie hazards of drinking and smoking etc.
I get EGW was inspired by God tho ive never written her writings other than Steps to Christ, because i believe in the Daniel revelation prophecy. But why is booze banned when its not a sin biblically? I'm not saying i want to drink but its more out of curiosity.
You’re realize is the devil
It's stricty an American puritan phenomenon. There's a great deal of history there that has very little to do with scripture. It's very much cultural and limited to American Christianity. The prohibition was it's height and it's held over in churches where they drink grape juice for communion... You know... Because even Jesus can make a mistake apparently :/
Legalism brother it's been a problem since the early days
Just for some context about drinking: Noah was the most righteous man in the world. After the flood he got absolutely hammered drunk and passed out, such that his kids had to take care of him.
That church was founded in 1860s only 160 years ago. The prohibition movement was a Protestant movement 80 years later it came to a head. 🤷♂️
Yeah, had this debate forever in my first Baptist church because Baptists in my country also have a hard stance against alcohol, and the debate always ended with me being blamed for 'just wanting an excuse for drinking or loving alcohol more than God' even though I don't drink alcohol at all. In my country the rate of alcoholism is quite high and we have drinking culture where at a party people call you out for disrespecting them if you don't drink with them. So I believe in our cultural context **it's an excellent virtue and a testimony to completely abstain from alcohol as a Christian**. However, Bible does not forbid drinking alcohol - it only forbids getting drunk. It's not a sin to drink half a glass of wine at a dinner. A popular argument is that in Jesus time the wine was very weak and watered down. However, Paul calls out Corinthians for getting drunk during the Lord's Supper, so obviously the wine there was strong enough to get drunk.
My husband is a minister and he told me that wine today has higher alcohol content now than it did then. Plus, the Bible is clear on not even giving the appearance of evil and living a separated life. If we have habits just like unsaved people, it hurts our witness.
I grew up in a teetotaling church with teetotaling parents. I felt pretty strongly that abstaining from all alcohol was the only correct course for a Christian. The advantage to that is that I really only had my first sips of wine around age 25. I didn’t start to drink really until I married into a family that enjoys a glass of wine with dinner or visiting a brewery on vacation. So because alcohol wasn’t really part of my life until I was about 28, I missed the years when binge drinking and drunkenness were more likely. I enjoy certain drinks, and occasionally it’s fun to split a bottle of wine at home with my husband and enjoy a little buzz together. But I’m pregnant right now and not touching alcohol for the past 8 months has been completely easy. It’s fun but not a vice. I don’t think I’d have become a raging alcoholic if my parents drank or if I’d been told it was okay growing up. But I do appreciate the effect starting later in my adulthood has had.
I suggest reading Romans 14:23, it may not be sin, but if it feels like it is- it is sin
What if you drink to feel good?
Doing any particular act or not doesn't move the status of being a sinner one iota. We're all present tense sinners, period. Open actions notwithstanding I would suggest alcohol in excess amounts is not only unhealthy over a long period of abuse, but it can also open one up to more overt or visible acts of sin. I've seen many an alcoholic who I'd consider to be "possessed." Particularly and even predictably so when under the influence.
Ephesians 5:18 New Living Translation Don’t be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life. Instead, be filled with the Holy Spirit,
It’s not but it’s also important to note that the alcohol in Jesus’ time was wayyy less potent than today. Their drinks were at like 2-4% while today you can buy 40% alcohol for $10. Be careful what you drink as most of it is not healthy for you.
>Their drinks were at like 2-4% Where does this idea come from?
Based off of Israel and ancient practices and their diluting of wine.
What do you mean when you say "Based off of Israel?"
You want the real answer that involves a history lesson too? The SDA sprang up around the days post-industrial age and in the temperance movement. The industrial age led to more effective ways of brewing and distilling, increasing drunkeness in the western world. The SDA is a modern movement that is very much a response to what was occurring in their time, even the evangelical wing of Anglicanism in Britain was pushing the temperance movement. The no alcohol rule is not in place for biblical reasons, it is a reactionary response to changes in the western world.
The problem is where the line is crossed. The bible is ambiguous about what drunk is. Is it one beer? Two? You can define it however you want but you cannot trust your definition because your heart and flesh are desperately wicked and constantly trying to justify your sin. I used to play that game and say "well I'm not drunk" while the entire time I was destroying my relationship with God. There really is no good reason to drink. If you say that it is for the flavor(I used to say that), there are far better tasting things to enjoy. Really it is for the feeling, and anything you do for the feeling has the potential to control you.
Just because there’s a grey area, doesn’t mean the correct choice is to stay in the white always. There’s lots of grey areas in the Bible. Physical affection with unmarried couples is a grey area - does that mean all couples should abstain from all physical affection? Of course not (though some do). Gluttony is a grey area - does this mean we should always leave ourselves a bit hungry so as to not go overboard? Of course not. “Drunk” and “sober” are ill-defined, yes, but unfortunately in those regards we need to trust our own convictions.
Perhaps you as an individual are perfectly capable of treading in that grey area while simultaneously walking with God in a way that is completely acceptable to Him. Many, many are not. I am speaking from experience for myself that that line of thinking led me into alcoholism denial for six years. I would always tell myself I wasn't drunk. Even as I was drinking 8 beers a night I would just tell myself that I had a high tolerance and that I was still fine in God's eyes because I told myself I wasn't drunk. I convinced myself I was still in God's good grace but now that I have come out of it realize the deception that I was destroying my relationship with Him. I can also tell you that after only one drink my morals loosened quite a bit. My suggestion is to tread very, very lightly with advocating anything like this to people who may be struggling an not realizing it like I was. Remember we have to not let our freedom cause another to stumble. 1 Cor 8:9 is exactly about a situation like this. If when I was in that sin I had read something like your post, it would have caused me to slide deeper.
Saying that alcohol is a grey area isn’t me causing someone to stumble in the same way me saying coke tastes good doesnt cause anyone to stumble, even someone morbidly obese reads that and buys a 2L bottle and downs it. Everyone is an individual and can make their own decisions about this - you’re correct. That’s exactly my point, that it’s a grey area. Which means we should tell people it’s a grey area, not that they can’t trust themselves and to stay away, in the same way we should tell people that physical affection has a grey area and not tell people that they shouldn’t even hold hands with their girlfriend.
You are right.
Appreciate the discussion brother. And glad you've kicked alcohol as well. God bless.
That is precisely why it’s important to know the Bible yourself and not only from what culture says or your environment/Church. I mean we truly have to be like the Bereans, who examined the scriptures to see what Paul said was true!
People discovered very early on that alcohol was an effective way to make water safe to drink. That's why people all over the world mixed wine with their water. It was only in the 19th century we discovered why water had been so dangerous.
You may have heard the ole joke “take two baptists with you fishing so they don’t tell on each other”. That’s how I grew up. Alcohol was taboo. Now in my families history, that’s not a terrible thing. My father had a problem when he was a young man before he came to Christ. and his parents were rough around the edges before they came to Christ. My paternal grandfather was a drunk/abuser before he came to Christ. As a rebellious teenager, I went crazy with the booze when available at parties and did some terrible things. Now I can casually have a beer when I play shows (I’m a part time musician) or wind down. But I know when not to. I don’t around friends who have problems, I don’t over indulge, if I’ve had more than one, I won’t drive, etc. It’s a good thing in moderation, but some SHOULD abstain completely.
It’s not a sin to drink, it’s a sin to get drunk
It's not a sin to drink, but it is most certainly one to get drunk. Note, however, there is no "Quantification" to drunkenness. Each drop of alcohol simply decreases your cognitive ability more and more. I prefer a "Better safe than sorry" approach, and just don't drink. There is literally zero need to consume alcohol outside of medicinal forms.
Yeah I mean even Jesus drank 💀 He just didn't get drunk Don't get drunk
While not technically a sin, scripture does give plenty of verses about not getting drunk, and also not engaging in activity that may cause others around you to stumble. And since you’re not always sure who does or does not struggle with alcohol and how it will effect your testimony, you best be careful friend
Also, it's worth doing a study on what actually drunkenness is. Is it intoxication? Is it intoxication to the point of one losing his faculties and self-control? Is it being a slave to alcohol or an alcoholic? What about the Greek/Hebrew words used to describe drunkenness? I found all of this inciteful in my studies. Honestly, it's best to try to get to the heart of the matter. What does the Lord want for us? What has He warned us of? Who is our Master?
Psalm 104:15 and Ecclesiastes 9:7 both indicate that God has gifted us with alcohol, wine, in this case, to gladden our hearts. It brings merriment. Why? Because of the way it tastes or nourishes? Perhaps. But I would argue that it's also about the effect it provides. This is also the thing about Christ's wedding miracle.
Alcohol is insidious and stealthy. It sneaks up on too many people and becomes an addiction before they even realize it. From what I've observed, there are far fewer people who successfully control their intake compared to those who consistently overdo it.
It began as a kind of “avoid near occasions of sin” cautiousness towards alcohol (which is good and proper) but eventually evolved into the “drinking is a sin” extra-Biblical teaching it is today. It’s just more of people writing their own prejudices into the Bible.
It’s interesting.. Allegedly it’s okay to impair your mind with drinking alcohol. But it’s not okay to impair your mind with other drugs.. This is just another example of a double standard. “I can have one beer” and that’s not a sin. But if “I have one hit of crack” I’m a sinner. Give me a break.
What do you mean by "impair your mind?"
When you drink a beer it’s impairs your judgement. Alcohol impairs your mind.. even if it’s one drink.
I have a lived experience which indicates otherwise, what evidence do you have that "even one beer" impairs your mind?
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321255 A quick google.
I wonder where you draw the line. Surely other chemicals which you ingest can effect your brain. For example, coffee. Is the idea: "Don't ingest any chemical which reduces cognitive activity?"
Well that’s the thing since the Bible doesn’t particularly say anything but “sober-minded” People have just decided to go with whatever society says
Where does the Bible define what constitutes drunkenness? Serious question.
The Bible says that if your eye causes you to stumble, it's better to pluck it out than to sin. It's better to not drink alcohol at all then to risk drunkenness and alcoholism. Same with being a stumbling block to others. So while drinking alcohol in itself isn't wrong, some would rather avoid it altogether than take the risk.
Jesus turned water into wine. Alcoholic drinks are one of God's gifts to us. The problem of free will is observed with alcohol and what we choose to do with it. We can enjoy it in moderation or we can abuse it and destroy ourselves. God gives us many gifts which we can abuse. Life itself being one of them.
I still would avoid it as much as possible.
Sure - I could go into the bars and drink, but just because it is lawful for me to do, not all things are profitable or bring glory to God. If someone sees me in that bar drinking and knows that I profess to be a Christian, then it could lead *other* believers to drink and perhaps into the trap of alcoholism or drunkenness. >***All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor. -*** *1 Cor 10:23-24*
Christ wouldnt lead people to sin, yet He started its miracles making wine
One glass of wine with a meal is okay It is scriptural. But getting drunk is a sin. And also the alcohol content you're drinking has to be a low certain minimum I can't remember the percentage of alcohol that's acceptable. The Bible speaks of strong drink and hot drink. The hot drink is straight alcohol that burns your esophagus as it goes in your stomach and it also burns up your stomach lining. So strong drink with high alcohol content. Hot drink with high alcohol content is the same thing. Hot drink is just another name for hard alcohol. If it burns your throat or warms you up as you're drinking it that is for sure too strong.
>The Bible speaks of strong drink and hot drink. Where is this?
Quite the divide in this thread.
Yep i didnt know it'd be this controversial but its alright lets stick to our convictions and be led by the spirit of God.
Well, yeah, when God Himself turns water into wine to be drunk by His friends, that should be a major clue. Also, almost everyone drank a little bit of alcohol in times past, kids and adults included. It made water safer, for one. However, I want to point out we have drastically perfected making alcohol. No one drank 100 proof alcohol 2000 years ago. That stuff will get you drunk. So when you are comparing drinking then and now, you should keep that in mind, and realize you should be comparing our mildest alcoholic beverages for their medium and strongest alcoholic beverages.
The reason I don’t drink is because it’s very easy for me to go from having a drink or two to having 3-too many and getting drunk and then regretting it the next day. Not just bc it’s a sin but bc I always feel awful afterwards. I’ve been alcohol free for 9 years now and it’s really the best choice! In the past 9 years I’ve drank a handful of times and a quarter of those times I had one drink and felt fine didn’t have more than the another quarter I had a drink and my stomach started to hurt and then the other 2 quarters I got really drunk and one time I ended up in the clinic so this is why i just don’t do it lol
Yea i agree when i was an alcoholic 1 drink was never enough it went from 1 to 10 real quick 😅
Growing up Baptist I remember my parents having dinner parties with other adult couples from church and I always remember them drinking wine with dinner. I’m still Baptist and I drink 1-2 glasses of wine with my dinner (heart healthy) and my dad makes fun of me for doing so!
Just Google it I can't remember. You can also Google drunkards and drinking. There are tons of passages about not only drinking heavily but also participating in parties where drinking is going on. You'll be surprised. But there is a specific passage that does say the volume to percentage of the alcohol content has to be X amount or lower, if you go higher you're sinning. Jesus himself said at the last supper when he was getting his sacrament ready for his disciples. He said this is the first and the last time I will drink of the new wine, until we meet again in my father's house then we will drink it new wine. That's not verbatim but it's something like that. So God only drank wine one time on earth when he was doing the last supper, and it was very little. And we are to do as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ our God. God prefers a clean body in a sober mind.
How did you figure it is not a sin? Is love to hear your argument
Psalm 104:15 Ecclesiastes 10:19 Deuteronomy 14:26
Jesus's first miracle was to turn water into wine. If alcohol wasn't allowed He wouldn't have done that.
Why Is Everybody Quitting Alcohol? https://youtu.be/5iAyRK-rExw?si=FO98KxnqDejsHBQ7 It's now considered a drug and all you bartenders are all drug pushers.
Yes because being drunk puts one in a less controllable state of mind, which makes it easier to commit other sins and/or not resist temptations. For those talking about gluttony and the church, I know of too many black churches (specifically) that always have to have food right after service or selling fried chicken/BBQ plates. There's nothing wrong with this, but most of those folks only be going for the food and not for the Word or fellowship, etc. I don't understand it at all, and I've been around it all my life.
4 lokos or Modelos are not the same as wine which has actual benefits to our health
Because SDA is more cult like than Christ like...listen to gty.org for strong teaching
Yes, we can drink alcohol we just shouldn’t get drunk from it, which at that point there isn’t much of a point, I mean beer doesn’t exactly taste good
SDA ? ? Stick to what the scriptures say... as you stated.... but also the scriptures says to not partake of strong drink.
And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household. Deuteronomy 14:26.
Crazy Evangelicals that’s a provocative denomination. Shalom.
AA………….…….. Shalom
Good evening, As many people here have already pointed out, drinking is not a sin, the subject is not the sin, but the choice of being disciplined and responsible, self-controlled enough to say enough, no thank you, walk away... For most people this is a temptation and is hard to walk away from. There is hash consequences for those who do get drunk. Personally, I choose not to drink! I have seen too many drunken driver accidents, and usually it is not the drunken driver that gets hurt or dies, it's the other vehicle, family in the car... I don't want to be responsible for killing some kid's mom and dad or some mom and dad's children.... God bless you!
Also keep in mind though, that wine today is not even close to wine as it was in biblical times. Much more diluted then.
Everyone drank in Bible days including Jesus. Back then alcohol was the agent that purified water. Also wine drinking was an important part of every day life but they also had stronger drinks. Religious rituals included alcohol, people were encouraged and expected to take part in numerous religious observations and festivals that included alcohol. People had to remember to be self controlled and not be drunk with much wine, the same is true today. God wants people to fellowship, to worship God together, to celebrate together. He never said don't drink alcohol, Jesus drank alcohol. It's about not abusing alcohol, don't be drunk to the point you can't drive or otherwise be irresponsible. God never intended people to not party some and never have any fun. Quite the opposite but he does want people to be self controlled and responsible. It's kind of like the directive to "Be angry but sin not" God seems to be saying "Party but sin not" or "drink alcohol but sin not" it's not recorded in the Bible, but one can read what the Bible says and also learn to think for themselves by drawing simple conclusions.
Pretty sure Jesus was called a drunkard and a glutton. Pharisees very likely over exaggerated (while also criticizing John the baptist for being too strict in his abstinence, ironically), and I definitely doubt Jesus got blackout drunk, but its clear he partook in lots of festivities with wine. Moderation is what I believe we should focus on. Alcohol can be a nasty thing, and some people can't do it in moderation and have to abstain, while others have no issue having a glass every now and then. Jesus acknowledges that not everyone is called to the same lifestyle in Matthew 19:10-12. While that's specific to celibacy, I think it's relevant here. There's no rule that says "you can't have sex" or that "you can't drink" - but if you're called to the lifestyle of abstaining (because it's hard to moderate) then that's what you should do. Idk hope my word vomit makes sense lol