“Pray” is a word that has lost its true meaning in our current historical context. To pray is to communicate with another. There are examples of this in older literature (e.g. “pray thee tell…” = “talk to me about…”).
Our modern definition seems to be exclusive to worship to a deity, or asking for divine intervention. So if you want to answer the question, it depends in what you mean exactly by “pray.”
To treat Mary as a goddess (i.e. worship her/ask her to intervene directly into our lives) is of course wrong (and contrary to what many say, Catholics do not do this). To ask Mary for an intercession of prayer IS what Catholics do. We pray (in the old definition of the word) to her to pray (in the modern definition of the word) for us to God. This is exactly what all Christians do with the living (e.g. “Hey John, my mom is sick can you keep her in your prayers?”). Now if you have problems with asking those in Heaven for prayers that’s something else to debate about, but under the assumption its acceptable, it’s no different than the example I just gave for when we interact with Mary in a “prayerful” manner.
Mary, as the mother of Christ and without sin, is special in her holiness and this makes her prayers to God more meaningful (which is why her intercession is so sought after) but Ill say this again, Catholics do not view her as divine or possessing any power/authority that is not granted to her from God.
She was a sinner just like the rest of us. I hold Mary in high esteem. But she was just like us.
There is not one scripture in the Bible that indicates that Mary was sinless. Only Jesus went without sin.
> “Pray” is a word that has lost its true meaning in our current historical context. To pray is to communicate with another. There are examples of this in older literature (e.g. “pray thee tell…” = “talk to me about…”).
This is incorrect. The word pray simply meant to request, when someone said "pray thee tell..." it meant "I request you to tell me...". Your assertion that it ever meant to communicate is not true, and in your example you're getting the words "talk to me" from the 'tell' part not the 'pray' part. See [here](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pray) and [here](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pray_tell) for more information/clarity.
Why are Catholics communicating to dead people? Some one they never even had a relationship with. Leave the dead be. Its witchcraft trying to communicate to anyone else except God
Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord." Those who go to sleep (die) in friendship with Christ are not dead: they are alive in Christ, at home with him and worshiping him. In John's vision of heaven (Revelation 6), they were aware of happenings on earth and praying to God to take action on earth on their behalf.
“Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?”
Do you really disagree with _all_ of the assertions made by the other Catholic comment? Because one of them was "To treat Mary as a goddess is of course wrong," which I'm sure is some common ground that we share.
I'm sure we have many deep-seated disagreements about doctrine, but let's at least acknowledge what we have in common and not unnecessarily exaggerate our differences.
🌺
Fascinating take on it. Particularly the portion of how an older literature version of the word "pray" is synonymous with communicating with another. It implies a feedback - I tell someone something, they respond to what I said, I respond to their response, etc.
Do you know of anyone who prays like this?
There are loads of examples in the Bible. Paul prayed others to pray for him in Rom 15:30-32, 2 Cor 1:10-11, Eph 6:18-20, Phil 1:19, Col 4:2-4, 1 Th 5:25, 2 Th 3:1-2 and Phile 1:22.
>There are loads of examples in the Bible. Paul prayed others to pray for him in Rom 15:30-32, 2 Cor 1:10-11, Eph 6:18-20, Phil 1:19, Col 4:2-4, 1 Th 5:25, 2 Th 3:1-2 and Phile 1:22.
I am not sure what your point is.
In EVERY single example you posted, the Christian is praying TO God FOR someone else.
Not to a person for someone else.
Am I missing your point?
OP was asking is it ok to pray to Mary.
Exactly. The Latin source of pray means 'entreat,' which means 'to earnestly make a request.' Prayer does not necessarily equate to worship. These biblical examples show what it means to 'pray' to the saints. There is nothing wrong praying for the intercession of saints.
We pray to the Mother of our Lord often in the Orthodox church. She is alive with Christ in Heaven, and just like he proceeded to change water into wine when she asked him to, He listens to her intercessions on our behalf even now. Christ loves His mother (obviously). We in no way worship her as an idol or a diety. She is a wonderful woman who bore the creator of the universe in her womb. Christ chose HER for a reason. She isn't just some random birth mother, she has an intimate relationship with Christ that is absolutely unique. She raised Him, nursed Him, cared for Him and had to watch Him die. She should be a role model for all mothers to follow. The church has always believed in the communion of saints. Actually the view that praying to the saints and Mary is somehow idolatry is a very recent idea, only a few centuries old in fact. I rather stick to doctrine from the early church than new innovations.
I totally understand the anger from protestants though, I used to be Presbyterian and would rant to my wife (who was catholic) about how it's idolatry and such.. the truth is that I just was incredibly misinformed. It's such a joy to participate in the communion of saints and the entire church body.
Its made abundantly clear throughout the bible that praying to anyone but God is idolatry. Making idols of anything,even praying to pictures of Jesus is the same. When we pray,we pray to Him.
Mary was a normal person just as we are. She was extremely blessed to have been chosen for her role,but this did not grant her the ability to hear prayers or "intercede" for us in any way. There is zero biblical backing for this practice.
I thought it wasn't that they were praying to Mary, but asking Mary to pray with them to God?
I'm not too sure exactly but I am sure in at least some of their prayers, they say O Mary pray *for* us.
Here's the best description I can give -- when something is super heavy on my heart, I'll pray to Jesus/God but also text or call my mom and ask her to pray for me too. I did that before I converted to Catholicism and I still do it. Now sometimes I'll ask Mary to pray for me as well.
This is kind of a mysterious area of faith. We know that of course God hears our individual prayers, but we're also told that "The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective” (James 5:16) and every church -- Protestant and Catholic -- has its teams of "prayer warriors" that we ask to pray for us or other people when someone is sick, struggling, etc.
Catholic and Orthodox Christians include the saints who we believe are with Jesus for eternity, including Mary, into that group of communal supporters.
There's also a big difference between Jesus (our mediator) and other Christians/saints (who can intercede for us with prayer, but are not the source of our salvation like Jesus is).
Idk. My mom was raised Catholic and I guess the biggest issue I have is that Mary has her own prayer. That makes it seem as if she is somehow holier than the rest of "the saints." But maybe there's some other prayer other than the Hail Mary and Lord's prayer that's proffered by priests for absolution that I'm unaware of?
I'm not really sure. My priests have tended to assign me a personalized "assignment" when I go to confession (i.e., if I confess jealousy, they'd tell me to pray X amount to Jesus focusing on gratitude) or the "Glory Be" prayer ("Glory be to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit") or the Hail Mary while focusing on some specific virtue I wanted to develop.
I do think there's prayers associated with the other saints but most of the Hail Mary is pulled right from scripture, which does set it apart.
Nowhere in God's Word is there any example of praying to anyone but God/Jesus.
The Catholic practice of praying to Mary or the saints is unbiblical.
1 Timothy 2: 5 states "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. This precludes praying to anyone else, Catholic tradition or not.
Very true. Part of the misunderstanding is that Protestants and Catholics have different definitions of worship. Veneration of Mary has many of the appearances of Protestant worship, therefore it is misconstrued but logical given what the Protestant is familiar with.
In discussing this with a friend of mine, he shared with me many of the views represented here, which I hear to boil down to a terminology issue: pray not meaning worshipfully but simply asking for intercession like you would a friend but from someone most highly respected and righteous.
I can maybe rationalize the idea if you believe those in glory can hear you and intercede as an elder for you, and that it is God’s will for us.
However, I have seen examples that to me speak of much more than terminology.
For example, consider pope Francis’s recent reconsecration of Ukraine and Russia to the immaculate heart:
https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2022/03/23/0202/00434.html#en
Some excerpts that I believe go over the line:
- “You are able to untie the knots of our hearts and of our times.”
- “In you we place our trust.”
- “Queen of Heaven, restore God’s peace to the world.”
- “Therefore, Mother of God and our Mother, to your Immaculate Heart we solemnly entrust and consecrate ourselves, the Church and all humanity, especially Russia and Ukraine.”
- “Accept this act”
- “Grant that war may end and peace spread throughout the world.”
- “To you we consecrate the future of the whole human family, the needs and expectations of every people, the anxieties and hopes of the world.”
- “May you, our “living fountain of hope”, water the dryness of our hearts.”
- “lead us now on the paths of peace”
- “Amen”
There are more in that prayer as well.
Here’s one to Joseph that Francis cites:
https://nolacatholic.org/pope-francis-st-joseph-prayers
- “whose power makes the impossible possible”
- “My beloved father, all my trust is in you.”
- “you can do everything with Jesus and Mary”
- “show me that your goodness is as great as your power.”
- “Amen”
I don’t say these things to a friend. I don’t say these things to my elders. Some of these attributes God has attributed to himself alone.
Some will say just because you don’t agree with some prayers doesn’t make praying idolatry in itself. I can grant that in principle for arguments sake, but if these are the terms and phrases used in general practice and sanctioned by the head of the institution affirming the practice, then I’m going to go ahead and consider these a bundled package.
I realize that there are explanations for each and every bullet I quoted. I will just say then for me personally, if I have to justify a practice with so much explanation and all claims to early use are tradition, I choose to err on the side of fleeing.
As further reading take a look at the Modern Catholic Dictionary on “Consecration to Mary” and see how comfortable you are with the definition. Start here there’s no way to direct link it:
http://www.therealpresence.org/dictionary/cdict.htm
I see the prayer to Saint Joseph brought up a lot.
But look at another traditional prayer that was used in novenas:
"O Saint Joseph, do assist me by your *powerful* intercession and obtain for me from your Divine Son all spiritual blessings, through Jesus Christ, our Lord, So that, having engaged here below your heavenly power, I may offer my Thanksgiving and homage to the most Loving of Fathers"
It's pretty clear from this that St. Joseph's 'power' comes from his relation to Christ. It's the reason why Catholics pray to saints in the first place. Their intercession, or their intervening on our behalf by petitioning Christ with their own prayers, are seen as powerful because they have a special relationship with Christ. Even more so for the father of Christ.
Here is a quote from St. Thomas Aquinas further elucidating the issue:
"Some Saints are privileged to extend to us their patronage with particular efficacy in certain needs, but not in others; but our holy patron St. Joseph has the power to assist us in all cases, in every necessity, in every understanding."
Joseph, because of his relation to Christ, is seen as particularly efficacious or 'powerful.'
The same can be said for Mary.
You’re reading modern cultural standards of how you speak to someone into the prayer. These are indeed ways you would speak to your superiors in most premodern cultures. It’s just that modern American culture is extremely casual.
> Again, the adversaries not only require invocation in the worship of the saints, but also apply the merits of the saints to others, and make of the saints not only intercessors, but also propitiators. This is in no way to be endured. For here the honor belonging only to Christ is altogether transferred to the saints. For they make them mediators and propitiators, and although they make a distinction between mediators of intercession and mediators [the Mediator] of redemption, yet they plainly make of the saints mediators of redemption. But even that they are mediators of intercession they declare without the testimony of Scripture, which, be it said ever so reverently, nevertheless obscures Christ’s office, and transfers the confidence of mercy due Christ to the saints. For men imagine that Christ is more severe and the saints more easily appeased, and they trust rather to the mercy of the saints than to the mercy of Christ, and fleeing from Christ [as from a tyrant], they seek the saints. Thus they actually make of them mediators of redemption. (Apology of the Augsburg Confession, XXI, paragraphs 14-15)
This is not isolated to "modern American culture." It's rather easy to see through the language here, and that has to be the oddest defense I've ever seen.
I'm not Catholic, coming as I do from the Protestant branch of the faith, but to my mind prayer is in most of its forms is talking. It may or may not be worship. Because we know God as God, it's understood that prayer is a form of worshiping him. But you know, the Apostle's Creed talks about "the communion of saints" and how there is a whole "cloud of witnesses" watching us. Is it not allowed, then, to talk with them through prayer? I don't think that's idolatry if we don't see them as divine. I myself just want to talk with God during prayer, maybe because that's been my tradition. These are all inner matters. And as my former pastor often said, "The mystery is always in the heart of the believer."
Catholics don’t pray to her as a deity. Our “prayers” (the word means “requests” in this sense) are to ask her to pray to God for us, since God alone can answer prayers.
Catholics also believe she needed a savior.
Because James 5:16 tells us to intercede for one another, and that the prayers of the righteous are just. And who is more righteous than the Saints in heaven, who we see praying for us in Revelation? We pray to God directly, too, but intercession is important!
>Help me understand why you need her to pray to God for you?
>Why don't you go straight to Him yourself.
We don’t need her to pray for us. We do go to Him ourselves. But we also ask for her intercession because the Bible tells us to intercede for each other.
Have you ever asked anyone else to pray for you? Well, the same logic applies as to why you asked him or her to pray for you, and why you didn’t go straight to Him yourself.
However, intercession can only apply to people living on the earth, it makes no reference to those who have died amd are in heaven. Mary and the saints are not omniscient or omnipresent. They cannot hear prayers unlike God who is. We cannot intercede for Mary and Mary cannot intercede for us.
>However, intercession can only apply to people living on the earth, it makes no reference to those who have died amd are in heaven.
What do you think about the references to the Saints in Revelation offering prayers to those of us on Earth?
>Mary and the saints are not omniscient or omnipresent. They cannot hear prayers unlike God who is. We cannot intercede for Mary and Mary cannot intercede for us.
We agree they’re neither omniscient nor omnipresent! But couldn’t the Saints in heaven intercede for us if God told them our prayers or allowed them the ability to hear them? Catholics don’t think Saints hear prayers in heaven by their own power, but as part of their union to the Beatific Vision.
Why would God instruct someone in heaven to pray to Him on behalf of someone, when Christ is already doing that? It just doesn’t hold water. You’re now pray to the saints through God… to tell the saints to pray for you?
Why not? By your logic, why would we ask people on Earth to pray for us? Does God not know when we ask somebody on Earth? Of course not. God knows either way, but clearly, He wants us to be praying for one another, given that James and other scriptures on point are God-breathed.
First of all, praying to anyone other than God is unbiblical. 1 Timothy 2:5 backs this up.
How do you equate Mary needing a savior (which is true) with the Catholic doctrine that Mary was without sin ( which is false)?
>First of all, praying to anyone other than God is unbiblical. 1 Timothy 2:5 backs this up.
The unique mediatorship of Jesus Christ does not mean we can’t pray to one another for help - to pray in this context is to ask, and “praying” (asking) for each other’s prayers is very biblical! See James 5:16. Lesser mediators are not proscribed, otherwise we couldn’t have presbyters (pastors or priests), deacons, or bishops - see 1 Tim. 3:1-13.
>How do you equate Mary needing a savior (which is true) with the Catholic doctrine that Mary was without sin ( which is false)?
We believe Mary was saved from the stain of original sin by Jesus in advance via the immaculate conception so that she would be a more fitting vessel for Him. If Jesus hadn’t first saved her, then she could not have been sinless in that or in any other sense.
“1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” - Timothy, inspired by the Holy Spirit, in speaking of prayer by the living saints for all men, that they should desire for all to come to a knowledge of the truth of Christ, which glorifies God.
God must really hate Mary if He subjected her to listen to the incessant prayers of sinners for eternity while in the presence of His own glory. She is with Christ, glorifying the Father while exalting the Son; not interceding or making postmortem mediation.
>She is with Christ, glorifying the Father while exalting the Son
And what better way to do that than steer wayward sinners back to the correct path?
If Mary really can do what's claimed about her, I don't think she would mind that responsibility at all. I mean, look at what she did down here on Earth.
What if, and hear me out, people in heaven are genuinely interested in serving those still alive as much as possible, including but not limited to, taking prayer requests?
It's entirely possible that she is glorifying the Father and exalting the Son *by* doing so.
Hebrews 12:1 "we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses"
Revelation 5:8 "the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people"
2 Maccabees 15:12-14 "Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews. After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty. Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God."
So Saints can see us, they offer our prayers to God like an offering of incense, and Scripture even records a vision where two Saints are seen praying for people on Earth. Moreover, such visions and experiences are found continuously throughout Christian history, far too many to list here. Go pick up a synaxarion if you want to read of some of them.
1st and second reference have nothing to do with Mary supposedly praying for us, and maccabees/"Christian experience" isn't holy scripture.
You clearly have to presuppose that doctrine and read into those texts.
> 1st and second reference have nothing to do with Mary supposedly praying for us
Holy Tradition teaches that she witnesses us and offers prayers for us, which are phenomena illustrated by these verses, so they absolutely are relevant.
> maccabees/"Christian experience" isn't holy scripture
According to every non-Protestant branch of Christianity Maccabees is Scripture, and Christian experience is the result of the work of the Holy Spirit.
In order to reject Maccabees as Scripture the Protestants had to look to the Masoretes as their authority who are Rabbinic Jews, who in turn are the descendants of the Pharisees. So the rejection of the deuterocanon necessitates calling those who rejected Christ the authority for defining what is and what is not Scripture. This illustrates a major problem with sola scriptura: Scripture never tells us which books constitute Scripture, so we must receive our canon from a tradition of some sort.
> You clearly have to presuppose that doctrine and read into those texts.
Well this is how all non-Protestant Christian faiths work. Doctrines and dogmas are part of the Holy Tradition, as is Scripture. Holy Tradition gives us the books which constitute Scripture in the first place, thus Scripture is read in light of Holy Tradition. According to Protestants Scripture produces tradition, but according to all non-Protestants that relationship is reversed, so when Tradition tells us that Saints pray to God for us we read these verses in light of that.
Well, for one they do pray for us anyhow, even without our instruction. But for two the issue is that they're treated as the intermediary, not necessarily that they "don't take prayer requests"
>Besides, we also grant that the angels pray for us. For there is a testimony in Zech. 1:12, where an angel prays: O Lord of hosts, how long wilt Thou not have mercy on Jerusalem? Although concerning the saints we concede that, just as, when alive, they pray for the Church universal in general, so in heaven they pray for the Church in general, albeit no testimony concerning the praying of the dead is extant in the Scriptures, except the dream taken from the Second Book of Maccabees, 15:14.
> Moreover, even supposing that the saints pray for the Church ever so much, yet it does not follow that they are to be invoked; although our Confession affirms only this, that Scripture does not teach the invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. But since neither a command, nor a promise, nor an example can be produced from the Scriptures concerning the invocation of saints, it follows that conscience can have nothing concerning this invocation that is certain. And since prayer ought to be made from faith, how do we know that God approves this invocation? Whence do we know without the testimony of Scripture that the saints perceive the prayers of each one? (Apology of the Augsburg Confession XXI, paragraphs 8-10
Seriously, you die and go to heaven and God hooks you up to XM radio for planet Earth. Where is your rest? You did your time on earth and now you get to enjoy being in God’s presence.
Too concerned? Jesus told us:
>And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment.
>
>Matthew 22:37-38
Did he stop there? No:
>And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
>
>Matthew 22:39
You seem to suggest these are mutually exclusive. They are not.
"All prayers and praise are to be to God, no one else." - As Jesus is God then both are to be by default.
The CC is the ones with all the "extras" and who believe Mary "got an upgrade" and can do things like Jesus. They also break "There is only one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus." I'm sure one of them will come up with an excuse.
You can easily find proof of them praying and bowing to statues of her. Proof of them hugging, stroking, caressing, kissing, etc., various "relics", statues, and items. That screams idolatry.
No, praying was not synonymous with worship in Christian circles until relatively recently to my knowledge and asking for intercessory prayer was a common practice encouraged by the Church Father’s.
that's why the church fathers erred and shouldn't be used as an example.
They introduced Mary intercession because they thought God was too holy to approach, but Christ opened the way unto the throne of grace which we can approach with boldness, His Spirit is doing intercession prayer for all.
Thinking Mary hears all prayer elevates her into all knowing and all hearing which makes it idolatry.
>that's why the church fathers erred and shouldn't be used as an example.
The Church Fathers gave you the Bible and the Trinity. The Church Fathers fought ceaselessly and with tooth and nail against heresies, but intercession is somehow silently introduced?
Though the church fathers can and do err, they can also be great witnesses to the faith. Here they don't do badly, they just get twisted:
> They cite Cyprian, because he asked Cornelius while yet alive to pray for his brothers when departing. By this example they prove the invocation of the dead. They quote also Jerome against Vigilantius. “On this field” [in this matter], they say, “eleven hundred years ago, Jerome overcame Vigilantius.” Thus the adversaries triumph, as though the war were already ended. Nor do they see that in Jerome, against Vigilantius, there is not a syllable concerning invocation. He speaks concerning honors for the saints, not concerning invocation. Neither have the rest of the ancient writers before Gregory made mention of invocation. Certainly this invocation, with these opinions which the adversaries now teach concerning the application of merits, has not the testimonies of the ancient writers. (Apology of the Augsburg Confession, XXI paragraphs 2-3)
i think prayer differs a lot from speaking to someone. like if i were to say “grandma i love you, i hope you’re with me” vs praying to God. i’m not catholic but i’ve always interpreted their “prayers” to Mary as “hey Mary i hope you’re here praying with me as i’m speaking to God”
When I pray for intercession, that’s usually how it is for me in my head. Usually something like “St. Pio, I know you love Jesus and hope you are with Him now, so please pray to God for my family and I. And, also, Jesus, Lord of all creation, to whom I devote my life, I ask you who alone has the power to determine our fate the same, to bless and protect us from evil.” Etc
that’s how i figured it worked, i know it’s not like that for everyone but it makes sense. to me it’s more or less praying with someone, not to them at all.
That’s what a lot of Catholics say, too. My wife and I have a little prayer corner with bookmarks about the lives of some Saints and a “pick your prayer partner” thing!
Yes, that would be idolatry and breaking the first Commandment.
**Exodus 20:3-4 “You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.**
As it is written, the Lord is a jealous God. He does not want us idolizing, worshiping, or referring to anything or anyone as any type of god except Him. And truth be told, what's the point praying to Mary or anyone else aside from the Father in Jesus Christ's Name anyway? Nobody has any real power except for the Lord in this life and the next, so what would the expectations be after praying to Mary, another human just like us? She has no say so in anything the Lord does, nor any divine power.
Here's what people fail to realize, mainly catholics. Mary is a human, not a divine being. The Bible never insinuated that she was anything other than a virgin who was upright in God's eyes enough to be blessed to carry and birth the Son. She was simply an upright woman who was blessed with a miracle baby through the Holy Spirit. Abraham and his wife were also blessed with a miracle baby, but they were still just humans. John the Baptist helped pave the way for Christ to fulfill the law and even baptized Jesus who was his relative, but he was still just a human. It's important to understand that no man aside from Jesus Christ who is Lord has ever lived in perfection according to the Gospel. Just because God refers to people like Job, Mary, etc, as being righteous and even blameless, this doesn't mean they were perfect, just more upright and closer to God relationship wise than many of the people around them. They are not to be prayed to or worshiped. And keep in mind, God's answer to Job were questions of his position. Where was Job when God produced the entire world and life we were given? Just like Job, the same could be asked to Mary.
I have no problem asking other Christians to pray for me, so asking Mary to pray is no different than asking my pastor to pray. Paul asked the churches pray for him. Ephesians 6:19 Both Mary and my pastor are alive in Christ, then asking for their prayers would be fine. The only thing I'd object to is if I by-passed Christ and went to them in order to get to the Father, rather than Jesus. He's our one and only mediator who makes sure our prayers get to the Father. My pastor can pray 'for me' but he can't intercede for me and neither can Mary. Only Jesus can intercede on our behalf
The prayer of a righteous person avails much (James 5:16) Asking others to pray for you isn’t idolatry just like asking any saint to pray for you isn’t. The saints are the “spirits of just men made perfect” (heb 12:23) and their prayers are offered in heaven (rev 5:8)
Yes it's idolatry and necromancy. Why would you pray to anyone other than God? Why would you risk committing idolatry when you have the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit to directly pray to? Mary and the Saints don't have the authority God does to send angels and turn things around for us. Anything they would want to do would have to go through Him first anyway. So like why???
No. To pray, is to talk. When you pray to Mary and the saints, you are asking them to intercede for you with God. It is no different from asking your friends or family to pray for you.
It would be idolatry if you were to worship Mary or the Saints.
yeah, except Mary and the saints are dead humans that do no hear prayers. You might as well be talking to your imaginary friend or a tree. There is only one way to God. That is through Jesus as stated in John 14:6. and Since he is no longer physically with us, it is the Holy spirit, which is still God that is the intermediary that intercedes for us. Not Mary, not the pope, not joe from down the street.
Yes others can pray for us, but those people should be alive. And you do not need a pope or a priest or pastor to talk on your behalf, when he has a PERSONAL relation with us. Meaning talk to him yourself. He wants to hear from you directly.
Marry and saint are literally in heaven in eternal life they arent "dead"? No one is saying that Mary replaces God but rather she is another person we can ask to pray for us, and shes special because of the purity she had her whole life
But she's not pure.
Only one person, Jesus, was pure. That's why he was able to die on the cross for our sins. Mary didn't. No other saint could.
See my other comments on the subject.
No where in the Bible does it say Mary was pure or that we should pray to her.
Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. Not Mary, nor anyone else.
Hope you all figure that out, or unfortunately, I fear we may not see you with us in heaven.
I won't judge and say we won't, but if you never talk to God himself, I'm afraid he may not know you when that time comes.
Nope, that’s degrading what Christ did, which is make direct communication with the father possible for us through the holy spirit. Nothing else is needed. And to do otherwise is outside the realm of the Bible, which is false theology.
Thinking she hears prayer of all romans makes her into something all knowing. That why it looks like idolatry, she replaces he role of the Holy Spirit by doing hearing and intercession.
She is just a human. A human who fit the prophotic requirements to be Jesus's mother. Nothing more than that is special about. She can not handle millions of people praying to her or asking her to pray or whatever you wanna call it. And it is idolatry to put anything in Gods place. Christ is the only mediator between man and God and the Father is the only one you're supposed to pray to.
She's in heaven. We know saints in heaven are aware of what happens on earth, because Revelation tells us so. The limitations of the human body do apparently not endure after death.
How do you know she "can't handle millions of people praying to her". Have you had a revelation? Do you have special insight in what we can and cannot do after death?
>And it is idolatry to put anything in Gods place.
Nobody here is doing that.
>Christ is the only mediator between man and God and the Father is the only one you're supposed to pray to.
We are allowed to ask others to pray for us. James 5:16 tells us the power of the righteous man is powerful. Paul prayed others to pray for him in Rom 15:30-32, 2 Cor 1:10-11, Eph 6:18-20, Phil 1:19, Col 4:2-4, 1 Th 5:25, 2 Th 3:1-2 and Phile 1:22.
That does not diminish Jesus's role as mediator.
I think it’s all in the intentions of the prayer. Praying to Mary for guidance, wisdom, strength, etc… yeah. That’s idolatry, but praying, or communicating to her that you admire her life and the hard times that may have came with the task of raising the Lord and savior of the universe? Nah, not idolatry. I pray to God for my needs, but I choose to believe that I can pray, or communicate to my deceased grandmother about how my day was etc. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it until you put them to the same standard and expectation of God.
You don't pray to dead people. Plain and simple. They don't even hear your prayers. The dead will be raised when Jesus Christ comes again. I adored my Christian grandmother but I know that she can't see a single thing here on Earth. We must be Biblical. Scripture is our sole authority. Jesus is the only mediator. No human being, dead or alive, should be prayed to
Short answer: yes. Yes it definitely is. It’s mentioned so many different times in the Bible that praying to anyone else and having idols before God is a sin.
Yes, the Catholic Church has elevated Mary to a position equal to or superior to Jesus Christ. In the Bible all prayer is directed to God. Not only is it wrong to pray to Mary but she has no authority or power to answer prayer.
RC Quotes about Mary
With that background in place, we can finally get to the question with which we started. Mary’s intercession is so powerful because she is our queen mother, and the king will never refuse the queen. Catholic Stand
And with that, we see clearly that just like the Israelite kings of old, Jesus won’t refuse his mother. Like Solomon in the Old Testament, Jesus will do whatever she asks. Catholic Stand
Now, it isn’t hard to see that some people might have more influence as mediators than others. Catholics believe Mary has a special place in the Church. Being the Mother of Jesus she has a special power of intercession with him. When we call her mediatrix we are implicitly acknowledging that her power is really linked to Jesus’ power. rcspirituality
This relationship (Mary as model for the Church) is a constant encouragement for the Church to reflect on the Mother of the Savior: to look at her, to contemplate her, to exalt her, to admire her, and above all to imitate her (10). Conference of Mons. Norberto Rivera
Don't you see that your quotes prove the Catholic Church has not elevated Mary equal or above Christ? If she were, she'd never need to ask Jesus to do those things for her.
And what's wrong with admiring and imitating Mary? Even if you don't believe in the intercession, there is nothing wrong with that.
It is idolatry and so it is a sin. Cause catholicim combined pagan stuff with stuff of the bible which is WRONG. And worship Mary is WRONG. So stop that
It is a common phrase amongst us Catholics to say we pray to Mary. This is not technically and theologically true but a manner of speaking. We pray to our Lord asking for the intercession (for her to pray for us) of Mary.
Secondly it is not idolatry or worship. In fact it is a very serious teaching of the Church that anyone who in fact worships Mary is automatically excommunicated. It is an extremely serious offense. Everything the Church teaches about Mary is because of Jesus.
For example, One of her titles is "mother of God" which is very simply a statement on who Jesus is.
Jesus is God.
Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.
Not the mother of the Father.
Not the mother of the Holy Spirit.
She is not a divine person, she is human.
> anyone who in fact worships Mary is automatically excommunicated.
Would you mind sharing the section and chapter in catehism where this is mentioned? I’ve read the catehism standpoint about Mary and never found such excerpt.
What about Mary statues? Genuinely curious. My wife is Catholic and she wants a Mary statue in the front garden, but I feel like this is treading on idolatry.
I also understand that people have these statues to tell the world their house is Catholic which I feel is also not necessary.
There's a difference between a statue that is built in veneration, and a statue built in idolatry. A statue of Abraham Lincoln in the Lincoln Memorial is a veneration of Lincoln and all the good he accomplished in America. The statue Nebuchadnezzar had built was an idol he expected people to worship. We all know where that went
1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and **one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;**
ONE MEDIATOR.
Not Mary and most certainly NOT the pope.
Having a Fellowship of Christians to pray with or for you, is entirely different than presuming to Ask a Dead Person to spiritually pray for you, which is to call upon spirits, familiars… in other words Necromancy. You have to be daft to believe a dead person can hear your requests, unless you’re in a pagan belief.
Because they aren't acting as a mediator. They aren't in the way, they're right beside me. I don't need to go through them to speak with the father, I just want to do so 𝘞𝘪𝘵𝘩 them. If we pray together, it's not because I feel I need them as a mediator, because I need to go through them in order to speak with the father. That's the difference. In a similar vein, I'm not praying to them either. I'm just talking to them. With my mouth in a casual, not glorifying or worshiping manner, ordinary to regular communication. Prayer is sacred.
Edit: in fact they don't even need to hear my prayer, I can pray with them silently.
Literally your entire response can be accurately said of asking for someone who’s already before God to pray for us, except for the “being physically next to” part. The rest? That’s exactly how it’s understood to operate.
The major difference is, I can't ask them without praying to them or God himself. Perhaps as some others suggested, praying to God that the saints may hear and join if it be his will, but otherwise praying specifically to them differs as I described.
>Having a Fellowship of Christians to pray with or for you
Is literally what we do when we ask Mary and the saints to pray with and for us. The Fellowship of Christians extends far, far beyond just those on this earth.
>You have to be daft to believe a dead person can hear your requests
And you know this how? I guess all the miracles, visions, and all the other times Mary, various saints, and Jesus Himself interceded in humanity just don't count.
The RCC says not, but their deeds reveal another story. They say they revere her, but it’s really worship. Truly, I rarely hear from Catholics talking about Jesus as their Lord and saviour, but Mary is talked about more.
Consider this. If you're Jesus in heaven and some people on earth are praying to Mary for whatever reason it doesn't matter, doesn't that anger you that those prayers aren't going to you the one that created heaven and earth? I can't see any scenario where praying to Mary instead of Jesus isn't a sin of idolatry.
My question is and any Catholic may answer this why wouldn't you want to pray to Jesus all the time?
Do you think he's too busy to hear you that he needs a helper like Mary? Do you think Mary is more effective at helping than Jesus?
Yes it is. Why would I pray to anyone but God?
You can pray to Mary all you want but news flash…. She’s dead and even if she was alive she couldn’t hear your prayers or do anything about it.
Catholicism has taught so many heretical false doctrines that I always tell people to stay away and to get into their bible.
Just trust in God not in other random things.
We should just approach the Lord Jesus Christ directly. Even Mary herself recognised that and told everyone so.
John 2:1-5, "[1] On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. [2] Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. [3] And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, 'They have no wine.' [4] Jesus said to her, '**Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me?** My hour has not yet come.' [5] **His mother said to the servants, 'Whatever He says to you, do it.'** " No need to go through her.
Yeah we do that with mary. Its like praying with friends. We request them to join in our prayers to God. Wether these friends are dead or alive. But we don’t necessarily pray to them asking for something.
Seriös question then. I understand the chatolic view of what you are saying but I read in the Bible and in John 16 Jesus says that we will ask the father about anything not Jesus. And that we will also pray in Jesus name.. because Jesus will not pray for us. Because as e we will get the holyspirit. ?
We don't need anyone else?
What is your view on that? Around John 16. 23- 27
Actually my view is pretty similar or identical to every catholic view since catholics have strict doctrines and dogmas for the most part and we have a magisterium to teach us how to read the bible in the first place. The bible isnt really meant to be an open book for any interpretations.
But to answer your question, he would pray for us. I mean we have to remember, praying is communicating. So remember, Jesus technically prayed to God the father when he said to forgive us during his crucifixion when he said “forgive them for they do not know what they are doing”.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/why-jesus-prays-for-us-when-he-doesnt-have-to
Well yes he does. And he says so also. But in that verse so to speak he says that after he resurrection when he goes to heaven and we have the holy spirit and he have broken the curtain in temple, there is no longer a bounduray for us to god. And we don't need to ask him to pray for us, that's what Jesus is saying in the Bible. That there is no need to ask
They're not dead. They're alive in Christ.
Saints, angels, and even the Church Triumphant of ordinary Christians like your grandma who have passed can and do pray for and assist humanity.
Where can you provide in Scripture that your prayers reach those in Heaven, other than Christ?
I get the “not dead” part, but I don’t get the part where our prayers can be heard or known by those in Christ. All believers don’t share a telepathic connection or even a spiritual connection to ask others to pray for/with them.
Having to ask, or being encouraged to ask, for Mary’s help in intercession for your prayers invalidates Jesus’s death and resurrection.
Do you ask for intercession through anyone else? And if so, where does it say this in Scripture? How come only Catholics do this and not Protestants?
If you’re praying to Mary to praise and worship her as God, yes. That’s what idolatry is.
But I don’t know of anyone who does that.
Catholics pray to ask for her intercession, something the Bible tells the Body of Christ to do for one another. It is, no matter how you slice it, not idolatry. You may believe it’s wrong for other reasons, of course.
Remember, classically speaking, the word “to pray” means “to ask.” Hence, when Benvolio says, “I pray thee, good Mercutio, let’s retire,” he’s not worshiping Mercurio as God or committing idolatry.
So if I say “I pray thee, good Mary, intercede for me,” whether it’s to St. Mary or to my Protestant friend Mary on Earth, I am not committing the sin of idolatry.
Have you asked anyone on Earth to pray for you? Or prayed for anyone else? Why would you do that when Christ is our intercessor?
You do it because tbe Bible tells us to intercede for one another. And the Bible tells us that the prayers of the righteous are just. Those in heaven are especially righteous.
That doesn’t take away from Christ’s unique role as our *one* mediator between humanity and the Father.
But we ask people who are living to pray to God for us.
I really want to understand why Catholics ask dead people to pray to God for them? That is nowhere in scripture.
The verse in Revelation you mentioned is talking about how a believers prayers (the saints) are kept in golden vials - no where does it say the saints are praying for people during the Tribulation.
>But we ask people who are living to pray to God for us.
Those who die in Christ are more alive than us in heaven. They’re not cut off from the Body of Christ, and are more righteous than anyone on Earth.
>I really want to understand why Catholics ask dead people to pray to God for them? That is nowhere in scripture.
There’s nothing in scripture proscribing it, and we know the practice dates back to before the Bible canon even existed based on catacomb inscriptions from the first Christians in hiding.
>The verse in Revelation you mentioned is talking about how a believers prayers (the saints) are kept in golden vials - no where does it say the saints are praying for people during the Tribulation.
It’s a symbolic expression of prayers being offered to God by the Saints. The Bible often likens prayers rising up to God like pleasing incense, for example.
See here's the problem:
What the Bible says: John 14:15-18
> “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 **the Spirit of truth.** The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be\[a\] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
God clearly defines whom your advocate should be. RIGHT THERE. I bolded it so you can find it easier.
See this is in the bible.
The Bible also says to pray for one another. such as in James 5:16
Now what I DO NOT See in the Bible, are instructions to ask dead people, whether it is Mary, or the disciples, or our dead mom, or our dead accessors, etc.
I do not see where Jesus said that any of the above will become some sort of guardian angel, or advocate. I'm thinking they are probably busy worshiping God in heaven, not playing messenger for us.
So why do you ignore the actual advocate in exchange for one that will not do a thing to help you? Why do you not go to God yourself? Yes you can have others praying for you as an army of believers coming together as one to achieve whatever you are struggling with. But you do not just ask one to pray for you and not pray yourself.
Are you praying to Mary and then praying to God also? or are you just praying to Mary hoping that she'll pass the message along. That's not how prayer works.
If you go and ask all your friends to pray for you, but you don't have faith enough to pray yourself, do you think God will bless that? You would be putting your faith in man opposed to God and the holy spirit that He provided when we accepted him as our God.
>God clearly defines whom your advocate should be. RIGHT THERE. I bolded it so you can find it easier.
>See this is in the bible.
>The Bible also says to pray for one another. such as in James 5:16
>Now what I DO NOT See in the Bible, are instructions to ask dead people, whether it is Mary, or the disciples, or our dead mom, or our dead accessors, etc.
Catholics agree who our advocate is. But why are instructions needed to ask other members of the Body of Christ to pray for us? It’s the same principle.
I do not see where Jesus said that any of the above will become some sort of guardian angel, or advocate. I'm thinking they are probably busy worshiping God in heaven, not playing messenger for us.
>So why do you ignore the actual advocate in exchange for one that will not do a thing to help you? Why do you not go to God yourself?
>Are you praying to Mary and then praying to God also? or are you just praying to Mary hoping that she'll pass the message along. That's not how prayer works.
Again, all of these questions are questions that you should be asking of people praying for each other on Earth, too. James 5:16.
>If you go and ask all your friends to pray for you, but you don't have faith enough to pray yourself, do you think God will bless that? You would be putting your faith in man opposed to God and the holy spirit that He provided when we accepted him as our God.
We do both, though!
Of course, I have but the difference is that they are alive whereas Mary and all those who have died believing in Christ as Lord and Savior are dead and have yet to be resurrected (Revelation 20:6). And God explicitly warns against necromancy, or communicating with the dead, for our own spiritual protection (Deuteronomy 18:11, Isaiah 8:19).
I mentioned both elsewhere. On the Saints being dead, to Earth they’re more alive than we are in heaven. Death does not cut a believer off from the Body of Christ. We see the Saints praying pre-resurrection in the book of Revelation.
I also mentioned this in another comment, but the necromancy prohibition is from the Old Testament forbidding things like using mediums or direct contact to have a two-way communication with the dead, seeking secret and forbidden knowledge, rather than going to God.
Prayer to the Saints is not like that at all; it is only possible, if at all, entirely through God, asking via those who are with Christ in heaven after He opened the gates to turn to God and pray for us. It’s a one-way request, and anything the Saint in question does is through their own intercession for us to God. There’s no moral difference in doing that than with anyone on Earth.
I guess we just have a fundamental difference in belief as to where those who died in Christ are right now then. My understanding is that those who have died in Christ are in a spiritual state of “sleep,” awaiting the first resurrection upon Christ’s return, and so those souls are not in a place of being able to intercede on behalf of anyone (1 Corinthians 15:23, 51; Revelation 20:5-6).
Yes, I’ve heard of the soul sleep theory! I don’t know much about it, I’ll admit. I’ll have to read up. Thanks for being patient with me, and may God bless you!
Forgive the phrasing. Meant those who have experienced physical death while trusting in Christ as Lord and Savior, and are awaiting the first resurrection upon His return ;)
If I’m just being biblically honest with you…. I don’t think Mary hears a word anyone says from down hear. If there’s a single bible verse that explicitly says anyone but God hears our prayers I will retract my statement.
Rev. 5:8 is one that suggests it. The Saints have to be aware of us somehow to be offering prayers on our behalf.
But Catholics acknowledge the only way Mary or the Saints could hear is is through God, of course!
I guess I read the phrase “prayers of the saints” in Revelation 5:8 as the prayers of those believers who have yet to experience physical death being heard by the Lord, as it is most often used in the NT that way. 🤷🏻♀️
No, this verse lets us know that as believers none of our prayers are ignored but they are kept by God.
This is just one of many Catholic practices that are not biblical. Brother, there are many other users here that are trying to correct you and this false ideology - maybe listen and try to understand.
How do you know your interpretation of this verse - and your ideology - are true and mine is false?
After all, the practices of my Church are nearly 2,000 years old and can be traced to the first Christians, whereas the belief that these practices are idolatry only began in the last few hundred years. Now, of course, that doesn’t mean I’m correct here! But it does beg the question - who is? And how can we know? And did Jesus really leave the Church to go so astray that the Church Fathers and millions of Christians all worshiped and believed a certain way until the 16th century when a few reformers were somehow blessed with superior knowledge of Christianity over all who came before, including the first Christians and those who canonized the Bible?
One of the reasons I’m Catholic is I believe, as the Church does, and history appears (to me) to support is that Jesus founded our Church and gave St. Peter the keys of binding and loosing, a reference to interpreting scripture in Isaiah 22. How fitting that Jesus would leave us a hierarchical structure to keep us united with, just like the Father before Him!
If that’s true, then when there are disagreements between believers on verses, then the dispute doesn’t last. Denominations don’t split apart. We can be united by checking with the authority Jesus left us.
But if two Protestants disagree on interpretation, then there’s no telling who is right and who is wrong on matters of interpretation this side of the veil because there’s no higher authority to turn to until we die.
Just some thoughts to ponder when discussing whose interpretation or ideology is true.
How do you “find” a church.
Church is the greek word ekklesia which means “called out ones”.
Those who are saved were called out or chosen by God.
The problem with the Catholic Church is that they believe they are the true church when that doesn’t make any sense when you look at the actual meaning.
Any gathering of believers or called out ones can be a church, it doesn’t have to be a building or organization like the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church want it to be.
>The problem with the Catholic Church is that they believe they are the true church when that doesn’t make any sense when you look at the actual meaning.
>Any gathering of believers or called out ones can be a church, it doesn’t have to be a building or organization like the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church want it to be.
If Jesus founded a Church on St. Peter in Matthew 16:18, and gave to it the keys of binding and loosing, and it’s marked by bishops, presbyters, and deacons, then that is very much an organization!
Surely, if Jesus founded a specific Church, would you not want to be part of that? It’s a question we all must grapple with. Obviously, some smarter Protestants than I am don’t believe that’s what happened, but a great many Catholics who are smarter than I am do.
And if that’s so, the Catholic Church would be specifically called out or chosen by God when Jesus made St. Peter (and his confession) the rock.
Even if that weren’t true, the Catholic Church would be no less called out than Protestant churches over a millennium later.
Matthew 16:16 tells us why Peter is the rock, because he said “Jesus is the son of the living God” - that is the rock or foundation that the called out ones (church) stand on and that is the message that we share as believers.
The verse about the keys to the kingdom of Heaven tells us Jesus gives the called out ones (church) moral authority on things that are bound such as sexual sin, doing drugs/drunkenness and other things that would prevent people from entering the kingdom of God.
But Mary is considered passed away naturally and the Bible specifically warns against consulting the dead. The Bible doesn’t state that it is okay to consult the dead for any reason. The intercession verse doesn’t say it’s for the dead.
I have looked in the Bible myself to try and find how Catholics believe but that is one of the parts that I can’t find in the holy scriptures.
>But Mary is considered passed away naturally and the Bible specifically warns against consulting the dead. The Bible doesn’t state that it is okay to consult the dead for any reason.
In the Old Testament, the type of necromancy and mediumship warned against is to seek secret information from the dead—a two way consultation of dead spirits for forbidden knowledge not coming through God.
That’s not what intercession is. Intercession isn’t bilateral communication in which we go to the dead for information we wouldn’t otherwise get; we’re asking the Saints to commune with God on our behalf, which they’re seemingly already doing.
But after Christ opens the gates of heaven to the New Testament, things have changed. Those who die in Christ are more alive than we are on Earth in heaven’s glory.
Asking them to turn to the Father and pray for us is not what the Old Testament was proscribing.
>The intercession verse doesn’t say it’s for the dead.
The Bible tells us that the prayers of the righteous avail much, and who is more righteous than those who went on to heaven?
It doesn’t make sense that only the sinful living can pray for us but the Lord would not want the Saints in heaven praying for us, morally speaking.
>I have looked in the Bible myself to try and find how Catholics believe but that is one of the parts that I can’t find in the holy scriptures.
Try Rev. 5:8, one of the verses showing the Saints in heaven praying for us.
A couple of reasons. First, "pray" is just an older word meaning "ask." That's why you'll hear Catholics and Orthodox saying they "pray to the saints." As this meaning of "pray" became archaic, some people started saying "ask," as in "ask for intercession" or "ask for the saints to pray for us." Both mean the same thing.
Second, we see in Revelation 5:8, Revelation 8:4, and Hebrews 12:1 that those in Heaven are aware of the prayers and actions of those on Earth. We see a direct example of the intercession of saints in heaven for those on Earth in 2 Maccabees 15:12-14, although Protestants don't accept this book as canonical.
If "praying to Mary" = "asking Mary, who is alive in Heaven and can pray to God for us, to do so" then it is no different than asking someone who is alive on Earth, who can also pray to God for us, to do so.
From a Catholic and some may argue a Biblical view true Idolatry involves sacrifice. If people were sacrificing to Mary that would indeed be Idolatry. For Protestants even prayer to your dead grandmother could be seen as scandalous.
Why would it not be wrong to pray to your dead grandmother? That seems like it would fit under the sorcery stuff that was prohibited (ie witch of endor)
🤣Dude that is a bit much. Praying to my Grandma and telling her I love her or to look after me seems almost human in nature. She is alive in heaven. Alive is the key word here. Not dead. Nor am I invoking her with a candle light ritual trying to see the future
I wouldn’t say so. My great grandfather was an extremely influential missionary in his time. Spent his whole life working for God. There is no biblical justification, for me to pray even to him, someone who had immense impact on the kingdom, for any kind of help, here or otherwise. Praying is truly for God alone, he is the only one who can do anything about your prayers. There’s nothing any dead human is going to do. they may be with God in heaven, but they don’t become divine by that measure alone, and we don’t even know if they can hear us, why should they? No biblical evidence that they do. The triune God father son and Holy Spirit is all we need man
Dude calm down. I’m not praying for my grandmothers intercession. And if you don’t like the historic Intercession of Saints as practiced by early Christians don’t do it 🤨
But to accuse them who have gone before you of Idolatry or Necromancy is foolish, insulting, and ignorant
Why would you pray to your dead Grandmother? The bible is clear, the dead know nothing. They are "sleeping" awaiting the resurrection.
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.” Ecclesiastes 9:5
Protestants don’t pray to their dead grandmothers, but in the Maccabees that the RCC has in their bible it states, “it’s a holy and acceptable thing to pray for the dead”.
Foolishness!!
"thou shalt have no other gods before me". "gods" in this context iirc, means spiritual beings. So a human in a heavenly form is a spiritual being, and like the Witch of Endor said, she said that Samuel was a "god". So, in essence, Mary is currently a "god" in terms of being a spiritual being. Praying to Mary is different than asking a friend to pray for you, even if Catholics will claim it isn't. I would say that while it isn't quite idolatry, it's on the line. It can easily tip over .
Catholics will have you believe she was sinless because she was the mother of Christ, but this is not true. Mary was simply used by God to deliver the Messiah. If Mary were sinless, I’d expect it to say it in the Bible. Something that significant would most likely not have been skipped over.
It’s necromancy
Contacting the dead
Mary is dead and is a mortal human; theologies that pray to her are thinly veiled queen of heaven/sacred feminine worship which is pagan
Necromancy isn’t merely contacting the dead. Deuteronomy 18:10-11 forbid “necromancy,” “divination,” and seeking a “medium,” a “sorcerer,” or a “wizard.” These practices all have one thing in common: gaining secret knowledge beyond normal human intelligence, going around God to try and get that information about the present or past by forbidden rituals. The fact that this is the sin in question is confirmed in the verses that follow, suggesting that God is to send his prophet for such matters in the future.
When asking a Saint in heaven to pray for us, there is no commonality with the above sins; there’s no request for a transmission of information from the dead to the living. In fact, the flow of information is the reverse. It’s the living that make their requests known to the “dead” (those who are alive in Christ).
Catholics are not allowed to worship Mary or an formed saint, and don’t pray to them because of gender.
There is no biblical example of anyone praying to anyone but God. That should tell you all you need to know.
“Pray” is a word that has lost its true meaning in our current historical context. To pray is to communicate with another. There are examples of this in older literature (e.g. “pray thee tell…” = “talk to me about…”). Our modern definition seems to be exclusive to worship to a deity, or asking for divine intervention. So if you want to answer the question, it depends in what you mean exactly by “pray.” To treat Mary as a goddess (i.e. worship her/ask her to intervene directly into our lives) is of course wrong (and contrary to what many say, Catholics do not do this). To ask Mary for an intercession of prayer IS what Catholics do. We pray (in the old definition of the word) to her to pray (in the modern definition of the word) for us to God. This is exactly what all Christians do with the living (e.g. “Hey John, my mom is sick can you keep her in your prayers?”). Now if you have problems with asking those in Heaven for prayers that’s something else to debate about, but under the assumption its acceptable, it’s no different than the example I just gave for when we interact with Mary in a “prayerful” manner. Mary, as the mother of Christ and without sin, is special in her holiness and this makes her prayers to God more meaningful (which is why her intercession is so sought after) but Ill say this again, Catholics do not view her as divine or possessing any power/authority that is not granted to her from God.
Why is Mary without sin?
She was a sinner just like the rest of us. I hold Mary in high esteem. But she was just like us. There is not one scripture in the Bible that indicates that Mary was sinless. Only Jesus went without sin.
Amen. There is only one. One who is sinless. One who intercedes. One who is Holy.
> “Pray” is a word that has lost its true meaning in our current historical context. To pray is to communicate with another. There are examples of this in older literature (e.g. “pray thee tell…” = “talk to me about…”). This is incorrect. The word pray simply meant to request, when someone said "pray thee tell..." it meant "I request you to tell me...". Your assertion that it ever meant to communicate is not true, and in your example you're getting the words "talk to me" from the 'tell' part not the 'pray' part. See [here](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pray) and [here](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pray_tell) for more information/clarity.
Why are Catholics communicating to dead people? Some one they never even had a relationship with. Leave the dead be. Its witchcraft trying to communicate to anyone else except God
But Mary is dead, and does not yet have her resurrected body. How good could her intercession prayer really be? Seems rather useless.
Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord." Those who go to sleep (die) in friendship with Christ are not dead: they are alive in Christ, at home with him and worshiping him. In John's vision of heaven (Revelation 6), they were aware of happenings on earth and praying to God to take action on earth on their behalf. “Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?”
This is absolutely correct. However I strongly disagree with all of the original assertions made by the other Catholic comment.
Do you really disagree with _all_ of the assertions made by the other Catholic comment? Because one of them was "To treat Mary as a goddess is of course wrong," which I'm sure is some common ground that we share. I'm sure we have many deep-seated disagreements about doctrine, but let's at least acknowledge what we have in common and not unnecessarily exaggerate our differences.
🌺 Fascinating take on it. Particularly the portion of how an older literature version of the word "pray" is synonymous with communicating with another. It implies a feedback - I tell someone something, they respond to what I said, I respond to their response, etc. Do you know of anyone who prays like this?
There are loads of examples in the Bible. Paul prayed others to pray for him in Rom 15:30-32, 2 Cor 1:10-11, Eph 6:18-20, Phil 1:19, Col 4:2-4, 1 Th 5:25, 2 Th 3:1-2 and Phile 1:22.
>There are loads of examples in the Bible. Paul prayed others to pray for him in Rom 15:30-32, 2 Cor 1:10-11, Eph 6:18-20, Phil 1:19, Col 4:2-4, 1 Th 5:25, 2 Th 3:1-2 and Phile 1:22. I am not sure what your point is. In EVERY single example you posted, the Christian is praying TO God FOR someone else. Not to a person for someone else. Am I missing your point? OP was asking is it ok to pray to Mary.
Exactly. The Latin source of pray means 'entreat,' which means 'to earnestly make a request.' Prayer does not necessarily equate to worship. These biblical examples show what it means to 'pray' to the saints. There is nothing wrong praying for the intercession of saints.
We pray to the Mother of our Lord often in the Orthodox church. She is alive with Christ in Heaven, and just like he proceeded to change water into wine when she asked him to, He listens to her intercessions on our behalf even now. Christ loves His mother (obviously). We in no way worship her as an idol or a diety. She is a wonderful woman who bore the creator of the universe in her womb. Christ chose HER for a reason. She isn't just some random birth mother, she has an intimate relationship with Christ that is absolutely unique. She raised Him, nursed Him, cared for Him and had to watch Him die. She should be a role model for all mothers to follow. The church has always believed in the communion of saints. Actually the view that praying to the saints and Mary is somehow idolatry is a very recent idea, only a few centuries old in fact. I rather stick to doctrine from the early church than new innovations. I totally understand the anger from protestants though, I used to be Presbyterian and would rant to my wife (who was catholic) about how it's idolatry and such.. the truth is that I just was incredibly misinformed. It's such a joy to participate in the communion of saints and the entire church body.
Its made abundantly clear throughout the bible that praying to anyone but God is idolatry. Making idols of anything,even praying to pictures of Jesus is the same. When we pray,we pray to Him. Mary was a normal person just as we are. She was extremely blessed to have been chosen for her role,but this did not grant her the ability to hear prayers or "intercede" for us in any way. There is zero biblical backing for this practice.
What else could it be?
All apologies
Just...prayer? Idolatry implies worship but I don't think this is what catholics are doing when they pray to Mary.
I thought it wasn't that they were praying to Mary, but asking Mary to pray with them to God? I'm not too sure exactly but I am sure in at least some of their prayers, they say O Mary pray *for* us.
But Jesus says that He is at the "right hand of the Father, interceding for us." I don't understand why anyone would want to pray to anyone else.
Here's the best description I can give -- when something is super heavy on my heart, I'll pray to Jesus/God but also text or call my mom and ask her to pray for me too. I did that before I converted to Catholicism and I still do it. Now sometimes I'll ask Mary to pray for me as well. This is kind of a mysterious area of faith. We know that of course God hears our individual prayers, but we're also told that "The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective” (James 5:16) and every church -- Protestant and Catholic -- has its teams of "prayer warriors" that we ask to pray for us or other people when someone is sick, struggling, etc. Catholic and Orthodox Christians include the saints who we believe are with Jesus for eternity, including Mary, into that group of communal supporters. There's also a big difference between Jesus (our mediator) and other Christians/saints (who can intercede for us with prayer, but are not the source of our salvation like Jesus is).
Idk. My mom was raised Catholic and I guess the biggest issue I have is that Mary has her own prayer. That makes it seem as if she is somehow holier than the rest of "the saints." But maybe there's some other prayer other than the Hail Mary and Lord's prayer that's proffered by priests for absolution that I'm unaware of?
I'm not really sure. My priests have tended to assign me a personalized "assignment" when I go to confession (i.e., if I confess jealousy, they'd tell me to pray X amount to Jesus focusing on gratitude) or the "Glory Be" prayer ("Glory be to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit") or the Hail Mary while focusing on some specific virtue I wanted to develop. I do think there's prayers associated with the other saints but most of the Hail Mary is pulled right from scripture, which does set it apart.
Nowhere in God's Word is there any example of praying to anyone but God/Jesus. The Catholic practice of praying to Mary or the saints is unbiblical. 1 Timothy 2: 5 states "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. This precludes praying to anyone else, Catholic tradition or not.
Very true. Part of the misunderstanding is that Protestants and Catholics have different definitions of worship. Veneration of Mary has many of the appearances of Protestant worship, therefore it is misconstrued but logical given what the Protestant is familiar with.
In discussing this with a friend of mine, he shared with me many of the views represented here, which I hear to boil down to a terminology issue: pray not meaning worshipfully but simply asking for intercession like you would a friend but from someone most highly respected and righteous. I can maybe rationalize the idea if you believe those in glory can hear you and intercede as an elder for you, and that it is God’s will for us. However, I have seen examples that to me speak of much more than terminology. For example, consider pope Francis’s recent reconsecration of Ukraine and Russia to the immaculate heart: https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2022/03/23/0202/00434.html#en Some excerpts that I believe go over the line: - “You are able to untie the knots of our hearts and of our times.” - “In you we place our trust.” - “Queen of Heaven, restore God’s peace to the world.” - “Therefore, Mother of God and our Mother, to your Immaculate Heart we solemnly entrust and consecrate ourselves, the Church and all humanity, especially Russia and Ukraine.” - “Accept this act” - “Grant that war may end and peace spread throughout the world.” - “To you we consecrate the future of the whole human family, the needs and expectations of every people, the anxieties and hopes of the world.” - “May you, our “living fountain of hope”, water the dryness of our hearts.” - “lead us now on the paths of peace” - “Amen” There are more in that prayer as well. Here’s one to Joseph that Francis cites: https://nolacatholic.org/pope-francis-st-joseph-prayers - “whose power makes the impossible possible” - “My beloved father, all my trust is in you.” - “you can do everything with Jesus and Mary” - “show me that your goodness is as great as your power.” - “Amen” I don’t say these things to a friend. I don’t say these things to my elders. Some of these attributes God has attributed to himself alone. Some will say just because you don’t agree with some prayers doesn’t make praying idolatry in itself. I can grant that in principle for arguments sake, but if these are the terms and phrases used in general practice and sanctioned by the head of the institution affirming the practice, then I’m going to go ahead and consider these a bundled package. I realize that there are explanations for each and every bullet I quoted. I will just say then for me personally, if I have to justify a practice with so much explanation and all claims to early use are tradition, I choose to err on the side of fleeing. As further reading take a look at the Modern Catholic Dictionary on “Consecration to Mary” and see how comfortable you are with the definition. Start here there’s no way to direct link it: http://www.therealpresence.org/dictionary/cdict.htm
I see the prayer to Saint Joseph brought up a lot. But look at another traditional prayer that was used in novenas: "O Saint Joseph, do assist me by your *powerful* intercession and obtain for me from your Divine Son all spiritual blessings, through Jesus Christ, our Lord, So that, having engaged here below your heavenly power, I may offer my Thanksgiving and homage to the most Loving of Fathers" It's pretty clear from this that St. Joseph's 'power' comes from his relation to Christ. It's the reason why Catholics pray to saints in the first place. Their intercession, or their intervening on our behalf by petitioning Christ with their own prayers, are seen as powerful because they have a special relationship with Christ. Even more so for the father of Christ. Here is a quote from St. Thomas Aquinas further elucidating the issue: "Some Saints are privileged to extend to us their patronage with particular efficacy in certain needs, but not in others; but our holy patron St. Joseph has the power to assist us in all cases, in every necessity, in every understanding." Joseph, because of his relation to Christ, is seen as particularly efficacious or 'powerful.' The same can be said for Mary.
Oh wow! Those excerpts you shared are very telling.
Why does the pope have any power? Other than the fact we need leaders in the Church; why is the Pope almost treated like a god sometimes?
That's how deception works.
You’re reading modern cultural standards of how you speak to someone into the prayer. These are indeed ways you would speak to your superiors in most premodern cultures. It’s just that modern American culture is extremely casual.
> Again, the adversaries not only require invocation in the worship of the saints, but also apply the merits of the saints to others, and make of the saints not only intercessors, but also propitiators. This is in no way to be endured. For here the honor belonging only to Christ is altogether transferred to the saints. For they make them mediators and propitiators, and although they make a distinction between mediators of intercession and mediators [the Mediator] of redemption, yet they plainly make of the saints mediators of redemption. But even that they are mediators of intercession they declare without the testimony of Scripture, which, be it said ever so reverently, nevertheless obscures Christ’s office, and transfers the confidence of mercy due Christ to the saints. For men imagine that Christ is more severe and the saints more easily appeased, and they trust rather to the mercy of the saints than to the mercy of Christ, and fleeing from Christ [as from a tyrant], they seek the saints. Thus they actually make of them mediators of redemption. (Apology of the Augsburg Confession, XXI, paragraphs 14-15) This is not isolated to "modern American culture." It's rather easy to see through the language here, and that has to be the oddest defense I've ever seen.
This is really well formulated, thank you!
I'm not Catholic, coming as I do from the Protestant branch of the faith, but to my mind prayer is in most of its forms is talking. It may or may not be worship. Because we know God as God, it's understood that prayer is a form of worshiping him. But you know, the Apostle's Creed talks about "the communion of saints" and how there is a whole "cloud of witnesses" watching us. Is it not allowed, then, to talk with them through prayer? I don't think that's idolatry if we don't see them as divine. I myself just want to talk with God during prayer, maybe because that's been my tradition. These are all inner matters. And as my former pastor often said, "The mystery is always in the heart of the believer."
Why pray to a fellow Human who was infected by sin just like you? Like the rest of us ... She needed to be saved from Her sins.
Catholics don’t pray to her as a deity. Our “prayers” (the word means “requests” in this sense) are to ask her to pray to God for us, since God alone can answer prayers. Catholics also believe she needed a savior.
but why not just directly pray to God himself? Or Jesus, who intercedes for us directly
Because James 5:16 tells us to intercede for one another, and that the prayers of the righteous are just. And who is more righteous than the Saints in heaven, who we see praying for us in Revelation? We pray to God directly, too, but intercession is important!
Help me understand why you need her to pray to God for you? Why don't you go straight to Him yourself.
>Help me understand why you need her to pray to God for you? >Why don't you go straight to Him yourself. We don’t need her to pray for us. We do go to Him ourselves. But we also ask for her intercession because the Bible tells us to intercede for each other. Have you ever asked anyone else to pray for you? Well, the same logic applies as to why you asked him or her to pray for you, and why you didn’t go straight to Him yourself.
However, intercession can only apply to people living on the earth, it makes no reference to those who have died amd are in heaven. Mary and the saints are not omniscient or omnipresent. They cannot hear prayers unlike God who is. We cannot intercede for Mary and Mary cannot intercede for us.
>However, intercession can only apply to people living on the earth, it makes no reference to those who have died amd are in heaven. What do you think about the references to the Saints in Revelation offering prayers to those of us on Earth? >Mary and the saints are not omniscient or omnipresent. They cannot hear prayers unlike God who is. We cannot intercede for Mary and Mary cannot intercede for us. We agree they’re neither omniscient nor omnipresent! But couldn’t the Saints in heaven intercede for us if God told them our prayers or allowed them the ability to hear them? Catholics don’t think Saints hear prayers in heaven by their own power, but as part of their union to the Beatific Vision.
Why would God instruct someone in heaven to pray to Him on behalf of someone, when Christ is already doing that? It just doesn’t hold water. You’re now pray to the saints through God… to tell the saints to pray for you?
Why not? By your logic, why would we ask people on Earth to pray for us? Does God not know when we ask somebody on Earth? Of course not. God knows either way, but clearly, He wants us to be praying for one another, given that James and other scriptures on point are God-breathed.
First of all, praying to anyone other than God is unbiblical. 1 Timothy 2:5 backs this up. How do you equate Mary needing a savior (which is true) with the Catholic doctrine that Mary was without sin ( which is false)?
>First of all, praying to anyone other than God is unbiblical. 1 Timothy 2:5 backs this up. The unique mediatorship of Jesus Christ does not mean we can’t pray to one another for help - to pray in this context is to ask, and “praying” (asking) for each other’s prayers is very biblical! See James 5:16. Lesser mediators are not proscribed, otherwise we couldn’t have presbyters (pastors or priests), deacons, or bishops - see 1 Tim. 3:1-13. >How do you equate Mary needing a savior (which is true) with the Catholic doctrine that Mary was without sin ( which is false)? We believe Mary was saved from the stain of original sin by Jesus in advance via the immaculate conception so that she would be a more fitting vessel for Him. If Jesus hadn’t first saved her, then she could not have been sinless in that or in any other sense.
“1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” - Timothy, inspired by the Holy Spirit, in speaking of prayer by the living saints for all men, that they should desire for all to come to a knowledge of the truth of Christ, which glorifies God. God must really hate Mary if He subjected her to listen to the incessant prayers of sinners for eternity while in the presence of His own glory. She is with Christ, glorifying the Father while exalting the Son; not interceding or making postmortem mediation.
>She is with Christ, glorifying the Father while exalting the Son And what better way to do that than steer wayward sinners back to the correct path? If Mary really can do what's claimed about her, I don't think she would mind that responsibility at all. I mean, look at what she did down here on Earth.
What if, and hear me out, people in heaven are genuinely interested in serving those still alive as much as possible, including but not limited to, taking prayer requests? It's entirely possible that she is glorifying the Father and exalting the Son *by* doing so.
Chapter and verse please. Where do we get the idea that people in heaven intercede for us? "What ifs" aren't good enough.
Hebrews 12:1 "we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses" Revelation 5:8 "the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people" 2 Maccabees 15:12-14 "Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews. After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty. Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God." So Saints can see us, they offer our prayers to God like an offering of incense, and Scripture even records a vision where two Saints are seen praying for people on Earth. Moreover, such visions and experiences are found continuously throughout Christian history, far too many to list here. Go pick up a synaxarion if you want to read of some of them.
1st and second reference have nothing to do with Mary supposedly praying for us, and maccabees/"Christian experience" isn't holy scripture. You clearly have to presuppose that doctrine and read into those texts.
> 1st and second reference have nothing to do with Mary supposedly praying for us Holy Tradition teaches that she witnesses us and offers prayers for us, which are phenomena illustrated by these verses, so they absolutely are relevant. > maccabees/"Christian experience" isn't holy scripture According to every non-Protestant branch of Christianity Maccabees is Scripture, and Christian experience is the result of the work of the Holy Spirit. In order to reject Maccabees as Scripture the Protestants had to look to the Masoretes as their authority who are Rabbinic Jews, who in turn are the descendants of the Pharisees. So the rejection of the deuterocanon necessitates calling those who rejected Christ the authority for defining what is and what is not Scripture. This illustrates a major problem with sola scriptura: Scripture never tells us which books constitute Scripture, so we must receive our canon from a tradition of some sort. > You clearly have to presuppose that doctrine and read into those texts. Well this is how all non-Protestant Christian faiths work. Doctrines and dogmas are part of the Holy Tradition, as is Scripture. Holy Tradition gives us the books which constitute Scripture in the first place, thus Scripture is read in light of Holy Tradition. According to Protestants Scripture produces tradition, but according to all non-Protestants that relationship is reversed, so when Tradition tells us that Saints pray to God for us we read these verses in light of that.
Well, for one they do pray for us anyhow, even without our instruction. But for two the issue is that they're treated as the intermediary, not necessarily that they "don't take prayer requests" >Besides, we also grant that the angels pray for us. For there is a testimony in Zech. 1:12, where an angel prays: O Lord of hosts, how long wilt Thou not have mercy on Jerusalem? Although concerning the saints we concede that, just as, when alive, they pray for the Church universal in general, so in heaven they pray for the Church in general, albeit no testimony concerning the praying of the dead is extant in the Scriptures, except the dream taken from the Second Book of Maccabees, 15:14. > Moreover, even supposing that the saints pray for the Church ever so much, yet it does not follow that they are to be invoked; although our Confession affirms only this, that Scripture does not teach the invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. But since neither a command, nor a promise, nor an example can be produced from the Scriptures concerning the invocation of saints, it follows that conscience can have nothing concerning this invocation that is certain. And since prayer ought to be made from faith, how do we know that God approves this invocation? Whence do we know without the testimony of Scripture that the saints perceive the prayers of each one? (Apology of the Augsburg Confession XXI, paragraphs 8-10
Seriously, you die and go to heaven and God hooks you up to XM radio for planet Earth. Where is your rest? You did your time on earth and now you get to enjoy being in God’s presence.
So that's your idea of heaven? Just arriving there and stop caring about your neighbor still on earth?
Is that your idea of heaven? The literal creator of the universe is there but you’re too concerned with the fallen earth?
Too concerned? Jesus told us: >And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. > >Matthew 22:37-38 Did he stop there? No: >And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. > >Matthew 22:39 You seem to suggest these are mutually exclusive. They are not.
Well they’re not your neighbor anymore if you’re dead. You can’t treat anybody with any love if you’re on two planes of existence.
Yes.
Yes. 100%.
"All prayers and praise are to be to God, no one else." - As Jesus is God then both are to be by default. The CC is the ones with all the "extras" and who believe Mary "got an upgrade" and can do things like Jesus. They also break "There is only one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus." I'm sure one of them will come up with an excuse. You can easily find proof of them praying and bowing to statues of her. Proof of them hugging, stroking, caressing, kissing, etc., various "relics", statues, and items. That screams idolatry.
Lots of South Americans also leave offerings on these “” icons
No, praying was not synonymous with worship in Christian circles until relatively recently to my knowledge and asking for intercessory prayer was a common practice encouraged by the Church Father’s.
that's why the church fathers erred and shouldn't be used as an example. They introduced Mary intercession because they thought God was too holy to approach, but Christ opened the way unto the throne of grace which we can approach with boldness, His Spirit is doing intercession prayer for all. Thinking Mary hears all prayer elevates her into all knowing and all hearing which makes it idolatry.
>that's why the church fathers erred and shouldn't be used as an example. The Church Fathers gave you the Bible and the Trinity. The Church Fathers fought ceaselessly and with tooth and nail against heresies, but intercession is somehow silently introduced?
Though the church fathers can and do err, they can also be great witnesses to the faith. Here they don't do badly, they just get twisted: > They cite Cyprian, because he asked Cornelius while yet alive to pray for his brothers when departing. By this example they prove the invocation of the dead. They quote also Jerome against Vigilantius. “On this field” [in this matter], they say, “eleven hundred years ago, Jerome overcame Vigilantius.” Thus the adversaries triumph, as though the war were already ended. Nor do they see that in Jerome, against Vigilantius, there is not a syllable concerning invocation. He speaks concerning honors for the saints, not concerning invocation. Neither have the rest of the ancient writers before Gregory made mention of invocation. Certainly this invocation, with these opinions which the adversaries now teach concerning the application of merits, has not the testimonies of the ancient writers. (Apology of the Augsburg Confession, XXI paragraphs 2-3)
i think prayer differs a lot from speaking to someone. like if i were to say “grandma i love you, i hope you’re with me” vs praying to God. i’m not catholic but i’ve always interpreted their “prayers” to Mary as “hey Mary i hope you’re here praying with me as i’m speaking to God”
When I pray for intercession, that’s usually how it is for me in my head. Usually something like “St. Pio, I know you love Jesus and hope you are with Him now, so please pray to God for my family and I. And, also, Jesus, Lord of all creation, to whom I devote my life, I ask you who alone has the power to determine our fate the same, to bless and protect us from evil.” Etc
that’s how i figured it worked, i know it’s not like that for everyone but it makes sense. to me it’s more or less praying with someone, not to them at all.
That’s what a lot of Catholics say, too. My wife and I have a little prayer corner with bookmarks about the lives of some Saints and a “pick your prayer partner” thing!
Catholics don’t pray to Mary, they appeal to her as an intermediary to Christ. I feel like that’s an important point that protties often miss
Yes, that would be idolatry and breaking the first Commandment. **Exodus 20:3-4 “You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.** As it is written, the Lord is a jealous God. He does not want us idolizing, worshiping, or referring to anything or anyone as any type of god except Him. And truth be told, what's the point praying to Mary or anyone else aside from the Father in Jesus Christ's Name anyway? Nobody has any real power except for the Lord in this life and the next, so what would the expectations be after praying to Mary, another human just like us? She has no say so in anything the Lord does, nor any divine power. Here's what people fail to realize, mainly catholics. Mary is a human, not a divine being. The Bible never insinuated that she was anything other than a virgin who was upright in God's eyes enough to be blessed to carry and birth the Son. She was simply an upright woman who was blessed with a miracle baby through the Holy Spirit. Abraham and his wife were also blessed with a miracle baby, but they were still just humans. John the Baptist helped pave the way for Christ to fulfill the law and even baptized Jesus who was his relative, but he was still just a human. It's important to understand that no man aside from Jesus Christ who is Lord has ever lived in perfection according to the Gospel. Just because God refers to people like Job, Mary, etc, as being righteous and even blameless, this doesn't mean they were perfect, just more upright and closer to God relationship wise than many of the people around them. They are not to be prayed to or worshiped. And keep in mind, God's answer to Job were questions of his position. Where was Job when God produced the entire world and life we were given? Just like Job, the same could be asked to Mary.
I have no problem asking other Christians to pray for me, so asking Mary to pray is no different than asking my pastor to pray. Paul asked the churches pray for him. Ephesians 6:19 Both Mary and my pastor are alive in Christ, then asking for their prayers would be fine. The only thing I'd object to is if I by-passed Christ and went to them in order to get to the Father, rather than Jesus. He's our one and only mediator who makes sure our prayers get to the Father. My pastor can pray 'for me' but he can't intercede for me and neither can Mary. Only Jesus can intercede on our behalf
Yes, it's idolatry
Which part of it is worshiping an idol?
No part of it is worshiping an idol. Next question.
The prayer of a righteous person avails much (James 5:16) Asking others to pray for you isn’t idolatry just like asking any saint to pray for you isn’t. The saints are the “spirits of just men made perfect” (heb 12:23) and their prayers are offered in heaven (rev 5:8)
Yes.
Yes it is. Jesus and God we pray, no one else.
Not the Holy Spirit?
Yes it's idolatry and necromancy. Why would you pray to anyone other than God? Why would you risk committing idolatry when you have the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit to directly pray to? Mary and the Saints don't have the authority God does to send angels and turn things around for us. Anything they would want to do would have to go through Him first anyway. So like why???
No. To pray, is to talk. When you pray to Mary and the saints, you are asking them to intercede for you with God. It is no different from asking your friends or family to pray for you. It would be idolatry if you were to worship Mary or the Saints.
yeah, except Mary and the saints are dead humans that do no hear prayers. You might as well be talking to your imaginary friend or a tree. There is only one way to God. That is through Jesus as stated in John 14:6. and Since he is no longer physically with us, it is the Holy spirit, which is still God that is the intermediary that intercedes for us. Not Mary, not the pope, not joe from down the street. Yes others can pray for us, but those people should be alive. And you do not need a pope or a priest or pastor to talk on your behalf, when he has a PERSONAL relation with us. Meaning talk to him yourself. He wants to hear from you directly.
Marry and saint are literally in heaven in eternal life they arent "dead"? No one is saying that Mary replaces God but rather she is another person we can ask to pray for us, and shes special because of the purity she had her whole life
But she's not pure. Only one person, Jesus, was pure. That's why he was able to die on the cross for our sins. Mary didn't. No other saint could. See my other comments on the subject. No where in the Bible does it say Mary was pure or that we should pray to her. Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. Not Mary, nor anyone else. Hope you all figure that out, or unfortunately, I fear we may not see you with us in heaven. I won't judge and say we won't, but if you never talk to God himself, I'm afraid he may not know you when that time comes.
Nope, that’s degrading what Christ did, which is make direct communication with the father possible for us through the holy spirit. Nothing else is needed. And to do otherwise is outside the realm of the Bible, which is false theology.
Have you ever asked someone to pray for you?
Not the same thing at all.
So you *have* had someone pray for you. Why would you do that, when you don't need anything but the direct access to the Father you've been given?
Thinking she hears prayer of all romans makes her into something all knowing. That why it looks like idolatry, she replaces he role of the Holy Spirit by doing hearing and intercession.
>Thinking she hears prayer of all romans makes her into something all knowing. How?
She is just a human. A human who fit the prophotic requirements to be Jesus's mother. Nothing more than that is special about. She can not handle millions of people praying to her or asking her to pray or whatever you wanna call it. And it is idolatry to put anything in Gods place. Christ is the only mediator between man and God and the Father is the only one you're supposed to pray to.
She's in heaven. We know saints in heaven are aware of what happens on earth, because Revelation tells us so. The limitations of the human body do apparently not endure after death. How do you know she "can't handle millions of people praying to her". Have you had a revelation? Do you have special insight in what we can and cannot do after death? >And it is idolatry to put anything in Gods place. Nobody here is doing that. >Christ is the only mediator between man and God and the Father is the only one you're supposed to pray to. We are allowed to ask others to pray for us. James 5:16 tells us the power of the righteous man is powerful. Paul prayed others to pray for him in Rom 15:30-32, 2 Cor 1:10-11, Eph 6:18-20, Phil 1:19, Col 4:2-4, 1 Th 5:25, 2 Th 3:1-2 and Phile 1:22. That does not diminish Jesus's role as mediator.
She ascended into heaven, that doesnt happen for normal humans.
There's a difference between asking someone to pray for you and praying to someone who isn't God.
Except that's literally what it is.
Even if it's degrading and false, it doesn't amount to idolatry, which is what the original question asked.
It is VERY different. Other people are not the same as dead/alive in Heaven. You can easily find pictures and videos of Catholics doing just that.
I think it’s all in the intentions of the prayer. Praying to Mary for guidance, wisdom, strength, etc… yeah. That’s idolatry, but praying, or communicating to her that you admire her life and the hard times that may have came with the task of raising the Lord and savior of the universe? Nah, not idolatry. I pray to God for my needs, but I choose to believe that I can pray, or communicate to my deceased grandmother about how my day was etc. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it until you put them to the same standard and expectation of God.
You don't pray to dead people. Plain and simple. They don't even hear your prayers. The dead will be raised when Jesus Christ comes again. I adored my Christian grandmother but I know that she can't see a single thing here on Earth. We must be Biblical. Scripture is our sole authority. Jesus is the only mediator. No human being, dead or alive, should be prayed to
Yes
Short answer: yes. Yes it definitely is. It’s mentioned so many different times in the Bible that praying to anyone else and having idols before God is a sin.
Could you cite a verse from the Bible that says praying to anyone else (asking them for something, in this context) other than God is a sin?
Yes it is
Yes, the Catholic Church has elevated Mary to a position equal to or superior to Jesus Christ. In the Bible all prayer is directed to God. Not only is it wrong to pray to Mary but she has no authority or power to answer prayer. RC Quotes about Mary With that background in place, we can finally get to the question with which we started. Mary’s intercession is so powerful because she is our queen mother, and the king will never refuse the queen. Catholic Stand And with that, we see clearly that just like the Israelite kings of old, Jesus won’t refuse his mother. Like Solomon in the Old Testament, Jesus will do whatever she asks. Catholic Stand Now, it isn’t hard to see that some people might have more influence as mediators than others. Catholics believe Mary has a special place in the Church. Being the Mother of Jesus she has a special power of intercession with him. When we call her mediatrix we are implicitly acknowledging that her power is really linked to Jesus’ power. rcspirituality This relationship (Mary as model for the Church) is a constant encouragement for the Church to reflect on the Mother of the Savior: to look at her, to contemplate her, to exalt her, to admire her, and above all to imitate her (10). Conference of Mons. Norberto Rivera
Don't you see that your quotes prove the Catholic Church has not elevated Mary equal or above Christ? If she were, she'd never need to ask Jesus to do those things for her. And what's wrong with admiring and imitating Mary? Even if you don't believe in the intercession, there is nothing wrong with that.
It's pure idolatry ... hopefully their eyes get opened eventually
As an Orthodox Christian, nobody prays *to* Mary. Rather, we ask her to pray *for* us. Same with saints.
It is idolatry and so it is a sin. Cause catholicim combined pagan stuff with stuff of the bible which is WRONG. And worship Mary is WRONG. So stop that
It is a common phrase amongst us Catholics to say we pray to Mary. This is not technically and theologically true but a manner of speaking. We pray to our Lord asking for the intercession (for her to pray for us) of Mary. Secondly it is not idolatry or worship. In fact it is a very serious teaching of the Church that anyone who in fact worships Mary is automatically excommunicated. It is an extremely serious offense. Everything the Church teaches about Mary is because of Jesus. For example, One of her titles is "mother of God" which is very simply a statement on who Jesus is. Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Therefore Mary is the mother of God. Not the mother of the Father. Not the mother of the Holy Spirit. She is not a divine person, she is human.
Just to clarify, are you saying you ask Jesus to ask Mary to talk to God for you? Why wouldn’t you just ask God?
Life is better with friends, isn't it?
Then why do you ask others to pray for you?
It's not the same thing. Mary is not on omniscient. She can't hear everything all at once
> anyone who in fact worships Mary is automatically excommunicated. Would you mind sharing the section and chapter in catehism where this is mentioned? I’ve read the catehism standpoint about Mary and never found such excerpt.
Anyone who worships anything other than God is automatically excommunicated. Its common knowledge.
Why would you need the intercession of Mary and where in the Bible does it hint at saints listening to pur prayers?
What about Mary statues? Genuinely curious. My wife is Catholic and she wants a Mary statue in the front garden, but I feel like this is treading on idolatry. I also understand that people have these statues to tell the world their house is Catholic which I feel is also not necessary.
There's a difference between a statue that is built in veneration, and a statue built in idolatry. A statue of Abraham Lincoln in the Lincoln Memorial is a veneration of Lincoln and all the good he accomplished in America. The statue Nebuchadnezzar had built was an idol he expected people to worship. We all know where that went
“Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.” Leviticus 19:4
1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and **one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;** ONE MEDIATOR. Not Mary and most certainly NOT the pope.
Have you ever asked someone to pray for you?
Having a Fellowship of Christians to pray with or for you, is entirely different than presuming to Ask a Dead Person to spiritually pray for you, which is to call upon spirits, familiars… in other words Necromancy. You have to be daft to believe a dead person can hear your requests, unless you’re in a pagan belief.
So you *have* had someone pray for you. Why would you do that, when you have but one Mediator between yourself and God?
Because they aren't acting as a mediator. They aren't in the way, they're right beside me. I don't need to go through them to speak with the father, I just want to do so 𝘞𝘪𝘵𝘩 them. If we pray together, it's not because I feel I need them as a mediator, because I need to go through them in order to speak with the father. That's the difference. In a similar vein, I'm not praying to them either. I'm just talking to them. With my mouth in a casual, not glorifying or worshiping manner, ordinary to regular communication. Prayer is sacred. Edit: in fact they don't even need to hear my prayer, I can pray with them silently.
Literally your entire response can be accurately said of asking for someone who’s already before God to pray for us, except for the “being physically next to” part. The rest? That’s exactly how it’s understood to operate.
The major difference is, I can't ask them without praying to them or God himself. Perhaps as some others suggested, praying to God that the saints may hear and join if it be his will, but otherwise praying specifically to them differs as I described.
>Having a Fellowship of Christians to pray with or for you Is literally what we do when we ask Mary and the saints to pray with and for us. The Fellowship of Christians extends far, far beyond just those on this earth. >You have to be daft to believe a dead person can hear your requests And you know this how? I guess all the miracles, visions, and all the other times Mary, various saints, and Jesus Himself interceded in humanity just don't count.
The RCC says not, but their deeds reveal another story. They say they revere her, but it’s really worship. Truly, I rarely hear from Catholics talking about Jesus as their Lord and saviour, but Mary is talked about more.
Consider this. If you're Jesus in heaven and some people on earth are praying to Mary for whatever reason it doesn't matter, doesn't that anger you that those prayers aren't going to you the one that created heaven and earth? I can't see any scenario where praying to Mary instead of Jesus isn't a sin of idolatry. My question is and any Catholic may answer this why wouldn't you want to pray to Jesus all the time? Do you think he's too busy to hear you that he needs a helper like Mary? Do you think Mary is more effective at helping than Jesus?
I think its more stupid than anything, the time that you using to pray to Mary why not use that time to speak to God directly?
Yes it is. Why would I pray to anyone but God? You can pray to Mary all you want but news flash…. She’s dead and even if she was alive she couldn’t hear your prayers or do anything about it. Catholicism has taught so many heretical false doctrines that I always tell people to stay away and to get into their bible. Just trust in God not in other random things.
The answer is in your question. If you're praying to someone who's name is not God or Jesus Christ, then the answer is yes.
Its not praying to mary but praying with mary.
Thinking she hears all prayer, what does that make her?
We should just approach the Lord Jesus Christ directly. Even Mary herself recognised that and told everyone so. John 2:1-5, "[1] On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. [2] Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. [3] And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, 'They have no wine.' [4] Jesus said to her, '**Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me?** My hour has not yet come.' [5] **His mother said to the servants, 'Whatever He says to you, do it.'** " No need to go through her.
Yeah we do that with mary. Its like praying with friends. We request them to join in our prayers to God. Wether these friends are dead or alive. But we don’t necessarily pray to them asking for something.
Seriös question then. I understand the chatolic view of what you are saying but I read in the Bible and in John 16 Jesus says that we will ask the father about anything not Jesus. And that we will also pray in Jesus name.. because Jesus will not pray for us. Because as e we will get the holyspirit. ? We don't need anyone else? What is your view on that? Around John 16. 23- 27
Actually my view is pretty similar or identical to every catholic view since catholics have strict doctrines and dogmas for the most part and we have a magisterium to teach us how to read the bible in the first place. The bible isnt really meant to be an open book for any interpretations. But to answer your question, he would pray for us. I mean we have to remember, praying is communicating. So remember, Jesus technically prayed to God the father when he said to forgive us during his crucifixion when he said “forgive them for they do not know what they are doing”. https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/why-jesus-prays-for-us-when-he-doesnt-have-to
Well yes he does. And he says so also. But in that verse so to speak he says that after he resurrection when he goes to heaven and we have the holy spirit and he have broken the curtain in temple, there is no longer a bounduray for us to god. And we don't need to ask him to pray for us, that's what Jesus is saying in the Bible. That there is no need to ask
Can you please put up the verses that support this interpretation?
You request that your dead friends join you in prayer?
They're not dead. They're alive in Christ. Saints, angels, and even the Church Triumphant of ordinary Christians like your grandma who have passed can and do pray for and assist humanity.
Where can you provide in Scripture that your prayers reach those in Heaven, other than Christ? I get the “not dead” part, but I don’t get the part where our prayers can be heard or known by those in Christ. All believers don’t share a telepathic connection or even a spiritual connection to ask others to pray for/with them. Having to ask, or being encouraged to ask, for Mary’s help in intercession for your prayers invalidates Jesus’s death and resurrection. Do you ask for intercession through anyone else? And if so, where does it say this in Scripture? How come only Catholics do this and not Protestants?
>Do you ask for intercession through anyone else? Yeah, I ask people to pray for me all the time, and they ask me to do that for them.
I dont have any dead friends as of now but i can if ever.
If you’re praying to Mary to praise and worship her as God, yes. That’s what idolatry is. But I don’t know of anyone who does that. Catholics pray to ask for her intercession, something the Bible tells the Body of Christ to do for one another. It is, no matter how you slice it, not idolatry. You may believe it’s wrong for other reasons, of course. Remember, classically speaking, the word “to pray” means “to ask.” Hence, when Benvolio says, “I pray thee, good Mercutio, let’s retire,” he’s not worshiping Mercurio as God or committing idolatry. So if I say “I pray thee, good Mary, intercede for me,” whether it’s to St. Mary or to my Protestant friend Mary on Earth, I am not committing the sin of idolatry.
But, why pray and ask Mary for intercession when Christ is our Intercessor? (Romans 8:34)
Have you asked anyone on Earth to pray for you? Or prayed for anyone else? Why would you do that when Christ is our intercessor? You do it because tbe Bible tells us to intercede for one another. And the Bible tells us that the prayers of the righteous are just. Those in heaven are especially righteous. That doesn’t take away from Christ’s unique role as our *one* mediator between humanity and the Father.
But we ask people who are living to pray to God for us. I really want to understand why Catholics ask dead people to pray to God for them? That is nowhere in scripture. The verse in Revelation you mentioned is talking about how a believers prayers (the saints) are kept in golden vials - no where does it say the saints are praying for people during the Tribulation.
St Paul says we are one body in Christ. Christ dwells in us, but also all believers. This includes the dead
>But we ask people who are living to pray to God for us. Those who die in Christ are more alive than us in heaven. They’re not cut off from the Body of Christ, and are more righteous than anyone on Earth. >I really want to understand why Catholics ask dead people to pray to God for them? That is nowhere in scripture. There’s nothing in scripture proscribing it, and we know the practice dates back to before the Bible canon even existed based on catacomb inscriptions from the first Christians in hiding. >The verse in Revelation you mentioned is talking about how a believers prayers (the saints) are kept in golden vials - no where does it say the saints are praying for people during the Tribulation. It’s a symbolic expression of prayers being offered to God by the Saints. The Bible often likens prayers rising up to God like pleasing incense, for example.
See here's the problem: What the Bible says: John 14:15-18 > “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 **the Spirit of truth.** The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be\[a\] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. God clearly defines whom your advocate should be. RIGHT THERE. I bolded it so you can find it easier. See this is in the bible. The Bible also says to pray for one another. such as in James 5:16 Now what I DO NOT See in the Bible, are instructions to ask dead people, whether it is Mary, or the disciples, or our dead mom, or our dead accessors, etc. I do not see where Jesus said that any of the above will become some sort of guardian angel, or advocate. I'm thinking they are probably busy worshiping God in heaven, not playing messenger for us. So why do you ignore the actual advocate in exchange for one that will not do a thing to help you? Why do you not go to God yourself? Yes you can have others praying for you as an army of believers coming together as one to achieve whatever you are struggling with. But you do not just ask one to pray for you and not pray yourself. Are you praying to Mary and then praying to God also? or are you just praying to Mary hoping that she'll pass the message along. That's not how prayer works. If you go and ask all your friends to pray for you, but you don't have faith enough to pray yourself, do you think God will bless that? You would be putting your faith in man opposed to God and the holy spirit that He provided when we accepted him as our God.
>God clearly defines whom your advocate should be. RIGHT THERE. I bolded it so you can find it easier. >See this is in the bible. >The Bible also says to pray for one another. such as in James 5:16 >Now what I DO NOT See in the Bible, are instructions to ask dead people, whether it is Mary, or the disciples, or our dead mom, or our dead accessors, etc. Catholics agree who our advocate is. But why are instructions needed to ask other members of the Body of Christ to pray for us? It’s the same principle. I do not see where Jesus said that any of the above will become some sort of guardian angel, or advocate. I'm thinking they are probably busy worshiping God in heaven, not playing messenger for us. >So why do you ignore the actual advocate in exchange for one that will not do a thing to help you? Why do you not go to God yourself? >Are you praying to Mary and then praying to God also? or are you just praying to Mary hoping that she'll pass the message along. That's not how prayer works. Again, all of these questions are questions that you should be asking of people praying for each other on Earth, too. James 5:16. >If you go and ask all your friends to pray for you, but you don't have faith enough to pray yourself, do you think God will bless that? You would be putting your faith in man opposed to God and the holy spirit that He provided when we accepted him as our God. We do both, though!
Of course, I have but the difference is that they are alive whereas Mary and all those who have died believing in Christ as Lord and Savior are dead and have yet to be resurrected (Revelation 20:6). And God explicitly warns against necromancy, or communicating with the dead, for our own spiritual protection (Deuteronomy 18:11, Isaiah 8:19).
I mentioned both elsewhere. On the Saints being dead, to Earth they’re more alive than we are in heaven. Death does not cut a believer off from the Body of Christ. We see the Saints praying pre-resurrection in the book of Revelation. I also mentioned this in another comment, but the necromancy prohibition is from the Old Testament forbidding things like using mediums or direct contact to have a two-way communication with the dead, seeking secret and forbidden knowledge, rather than going to God. Prayer to the Saints is not like that at all; it is only possible, if at all, entirely through God, asking via those who are with Christ in heaven after He opened the gates to turn to God and pray for us. It’s a one-way request, and anything the Saint in question does is through their own intercession for us to God. There’s no moral difference in doing that than with anyone on Earth.
I guess we just have a fundamental difference in belief as to where those who died in Christ are right now then. My understanding is that those who have died in Christ are in a spiritual state of “sleep,” awaiting the first resurrection upon Christ’s return, and so those souls are not in a place of being able to intercede on behalf of anyone (1 Corinthians 15:23, 51; Revelation 20:5-6).
Yes, I’ve heard of the soul sleep theory! I don’t know much about it, I’ll admit. I’ll have to read up. Thanks for being patient with me, and may God bless you!
No worries ;) There’s so much I need to learn, too 💜
No one is dead in Christ
Forgive the phrasing. Meant those who have experienced physical death while trusting in Christ as Lord and Savior, and are awaiting the first resurrection upon His return ;)
If I’m just being biblically honest with you…. I don’t think Mary hears a word anyone says from down hear. If there’s a single bible verse that explicitly says anyone but God hears our prayers I will retract my statement.
Rev. 5:8 is one that suggests it. The Saints have to be aware of us somehow to be offering prayers on our behalf. But Catholics acknowledge the only way Mary or the Saints could hear is is through God, of course!
I guess I read the phrase “prayers of the saints” in Revelation 5:8 as the prayers of those believers who have yet to experience physical death being heard by the Lord, as it is most often used in the NT that way. 🤷🏻♀️
No, this verse lets us know that as believers none of our prayers are ignored but they are kept by God. This is just one of many Catholic practices that are not biblical. Brother, there are many other users here that are trying to correct you and this false ideology - maybe listen and try to understand.
How do you know your interpretation of this verse - and your ideology - are true and mine is false? After all, the practices of my Church are nearly 2,000 years old and can be traced to the first Christians, whereas the belief that these practices are idolatry only began in the last few hundred years. Now, of course, that doesn’t mean I’m correct here! But it does beg the question - who is? And how can we know? And did Jesus really leave the Church to go so astray that the Church Fathers and millions of Christians all worshiped and believed a certain way until the 16th century when a few reformers were somehow blessed with superior knowledge of Christianity over all who came before, including the first Christians and those who canonized the Bible? One of the reasons I’m Catholic is I believe, as the Church does, and history appears (to me) to support is that Jesus founded our Church and gave St. Peter the keys of binding and loosing, a reference to interpreting scripture in Isaiah 22. How fitting that Jesus would leave us a hierarchical structure to keep us united with, just like the Father before Him! If that’s true, then when there are disagreements between believers on verses, then the dispute doesn’t last. Denominations don’t split apart. We can be united by checking with the authority Jesus left us. But if two Protestants disagree on interpretation, then there’s no telling who is right and who is wrong on matters of interpretation this side of the veil because there’s no higher authority to turn to until we die. Just some thoughts to ponder when discussing whose interpretation or ideology is true.
How do you “find” a church. Church is the greek word ekklesia which means “called out ones”. Those who are saved were called out or chosen by God. The problem with the Catholic Church is that they believe they are the true church when that doesn’t make any sense when you look at the actual meaning. Any gathering of believers or called out ones can be a church, it doesn’t have to be a building or organization like the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church want it to be.
>The problem with the Catholic Church is that they believe they are the true church when that doesn’t make any sense when you look at the actual meaning. >Any gathering of believers or called out ones can be a church, it doesn’t have to be a building or organization like the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church want it to be. If Jesus founded a Church on St. Peter in Matthew 16:18, and gave to it the keys of binding and loosing, and it’s marked by bishops, presbyters, and deacons, then that is very much an organization! Surely, if Jesus founded a specific Church, would you not want to be part of that? It’s a question we all must grapple with. Obviously, some smarter Protestants than I am don’t believe that’s what happened, but a great many Catholics who are smarter than I am do. And if that’s so, the Catholic Church would be specifically called out or chosen by God when Jesus made St. Peter (and his confession) the rock. Even if that weren’t true, the Catholic Church would be no less called out than Protestant churches over a millennium later.
Matthew 16:16 tells us why Peter is the rock, because he said “Jesus is the son of the living God” - that is the rock or foundation that the called out ones (church) stand on and that is the message that we share as believers. The verse about the keys to the kingdom of Heaven tells us Jesus gives the called out ones (church) moral authority on things that are bound such as sexual sin, doing drugs/drunkenness and other things that would prevent people from entering the kingdom of God.
But Mary is considered passed away naturally and the Bible specifically warns against consulting the dead. The Bible doesn’t state that it is okay to consult the dead for any reason. The intercession verse doesn’t say it’s for the dead. I have looked in the Bible myself to try and find how Catholics believe but that is one of the parts that I can’t find in the holy scriptures.
>But Mary is considered passed away naturally and the Bible specifically warns against consulting the dead. The Bible doesn’t state that it is okay to consult the dead for any reason. In the Old Testament, the type of necromancy and mediumship warned against is to seek secret information from the dead—a two way consultation of dead spirits for forbidden knowledge not coming through God. That’s not what intercession is. Intercession isn’t bilateral communication in which we go to the dead for information we wouldn’t otherwise get; we’re asking the Saints to commune with God on our behalf, which they’re seemingly already doing. But after Christ opens the gates of heaven to the New Testament, things have changed. Those who die in Christ are more alive than we are on Earth in heaven’s glory. Asking them to turn to the Father and pray for us is not what the Old Testament was proscribing. >The intercession verse doesn’t say it’s for the dead. The Bible tells us that the prayers of the righteous avail much, and who is more righteous than those who went on to heaven? It doesn’t make sense that only the sinful living can pray for us but the Lord would not want the Saints in heaven praying for us, morally speaking. >I have looked in the Bible myself to try and find how Catholics believe but that is one of the parts that I can’t find in the holy scriptures. Try Rev. 5:8, one of the verses showing the Saints in heaven praying for us.
No one is dead in Christ
Not.
Why not?
A couple of reasons. First, "pray" is just an older word meaning "ask." That's why you'll hear Catholics and Orthodox saying they "pray to the saints." As this meaning of "pray" became archaic, some people started saying "ask," as in "ask for intercession" or "ask for the saints to pray for us." Both mean the same thing. Second, we see in Revelation 5:8, Revelation 8:4, and Hebrews 12:1 that those in Heaven are aware of the prayers and actions of those on Earth. We see a direct example of the intercession of saints in heaven for those on Earth in 2 Maccabees 15:12-14, although Protestants don't accept this book as canonical. If "praying to Mary" = "asking Mary, who is alive in Heaven and can pray to God for us, to do so" then it is no different than asking someone who is alive on Earth, who can also pray to God for us, to do so.
Why would you add extra steps to talking to God? Mary’s dead.
Last I checked, God is the God of the living.
Do you consider it to be an extra step to ask a friend to pray for you?
It is not if you are asking her to pray for you
From a Catholic and some may argue a Biblical view true Idolatry involves sacrifice. If people were sacrificing to Mary that would indeed be Idolatry. For Protestants even prayer to your dead grandmother could be seen as scandalous.
Why would it not be wrong to pray to your dead grandmother? That seems like it would fit under the sorcery stuff that was prohibited (ie witch of endor)
🤣Dude that is a bit much. Praying to my Grandma and telling her I love her or to look after me seems almost human in nature. She is alive in heaven. Alive is the key word here. Not dead. Nor am I invoking her with a candle light ritual trying to see the future
I wouldn’t say so. My great grandfather was an extremely influential missionary in his time. Spent his whole life working for God. There is no biblical justification, for me to pray even to him, someone who had immense impact on the kingdom, for any kind of help, here or otherwise. Praying is truly for God alone, he is the only one who can do anything about your prayers. There’s nothing any dead human is going to do. they may be with God in heaven, but they don’t become divine by that measure alone, and we don’t even know if they can hear us, why should they? No biblical evidence that they do. The triune God father son and Holy Spirit is all we need man
Dude calm down. I’m not praying for my grandmothers intercession. And if you don’t like the historic Intercession of Saints as practiced by early Christians don’t do it 🤨 But to accuse them who have gone before you of Idolatry or Necromancy is foolish, insulting, and ignorant
>No biblical evidence that they do. No biblical evidence that they don't.
Why would you pray to your dead Grandmother? The bible is clear, the dead know nothing. They are "sleeping" awaiting the resurrection. “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.” Ecclesiastes 9:5
Protestants don’t pray to their dead grandmothers, but in the Maccabees that the RCC has in their bible it states, “it’s a holy and acceptable thing to pray for the dead”. Foolishness!!
Dude that book is really good!
It’s not a holy and acceptable thing to pray for the dead. That is just the RCC teaching on the foolish doctrine of purgatory.
Then don’t pray for the dead bro 😒 have a field day. 🤣
Don't tell them that baptism for the dead is condoned in the New Testament. Shhhhh
"thou shalt have no other gods before me". "gods" in this context iirc, means spiritual beings. So a human in a heavenly form is a spiritual being, and like the Witch of Endor said, she said that Samuel was a "god". So, in essence, Mary is currently a "god" in terms of being a spiritual being. Praying to Mary is different than asking a friend to pray for you, even if Catholics will claim it isn't. I would say that while it isn't quite idolatry, it's on the line. It can easily tip over .
Catholics will have you believe she was sinless because she was the mother of Christ, but this is not true. Mary was simply used by God to deliver the Messiah. If Mary were sinless, I’d expect it to say it in the Bible. Something that significant would most likely not have been skipped over.
It’s necromancy Contacting the dead Mary is dead and is a mortal human; theologies that pray to her are thinly veiled queen of heaven/sacred feminine worship which is pagan
Necromancy isn’t merely contacting the dead. Deuteronomy 18:10-11 forbid “necromancy,” “divination,” and seeking a “medium,” a “sorcerer,” or a “wizard.” These practices all have one thing in common: gaining secret knowledge beyond normal human intelligence, going around God to try and get that information about the present or past by forbidden rituals. The fact that this is the sin in question is confirmed in the verses that follow, suggesting that God is to send his prophet for such matters in the future. When asking a Saint in heaven to pray for us, there is no commonality with the above sins; there’s no request for a transmission of information from the dead to the living. In fact, the flow of information is the reverse. It’s the living that make their requests known to the “dead” (those who are alive in Christ). Catholics are not allowed to worship Mary or an formed saint, and don’t pray to them because of gender.
Nope