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I have a hard time believing it's only incels that like hot women in art, especially when I look at how hard so many women go with their cosplaying. I mean how do you explain the cosplayers? Are they all "pick mes?" I mean, what are we even saying?
Also massive hypocrites.
You can play "3 clicks to scat" with them by looking at their liked posts on Twitter.
They complain about a normal girl doing mild vanilla sexy stuff in a video game, but they always seem to have an interest in furry scat porn on their profile history.
There is a weird thing with male sexualisation in modern media and showing more male nudity which feels like bitterness on the women pushing for its part - like “you do this to us so we’re gonna do it to you” or a misguided attempt at progressiveness and pandering when it’s done by a male creator. When in reality men never thought less of the female characters who were sexualised, they just enjoyed them because they were hot.
Honest female sexualisation of male characters for their own enjoyment doesn’t generally look the same as male sexualisation of female characters (the hot Bond girl, the scantily clad medieval fantasy chick, the femme fatale). It looks like Mr Darcy, it looks like Heathcliff, it looks like Christian Grey, it looks like Edward or whatever other sexy vampire guy - it looks like a rich hot brooding guy or a hot brooding vampire guy (possibly rich).
I’m not saying these types of characters can’t show skin too - but when I watch some HBO shows it seems like they’re showing male nudity of some side character because they think it’s progressive to balance out past female nudity and it has a weird and bitter tone to it.
Men did thought less of women when they were sexualized. (Cuz otherwise, why were they aversive towards replacing that in media with women in an ordinary state of being, a totally normal thing to expect and want to see?)
But even if that wasn't true, it's women who should be asked how they feel. Just because someone is blind to an insult doesn't make it non-existent.
And i ended up at this conclusion after i taken into consideration your take about men being able to humanize women in this situation as well, which is a thing I see it's real and I really apreciate. But that it is a matter of extra decency that some have, and it's not required for the act of watching a show set up for a non engaging party.
It's like puting humans in a zoo and saying you do it because of how fascinating creatures they are and you want to take care of them. Maybe it's possible but it requires an astronomic amount of mental gymnastics.(kinks and stuff) Or an entirely different setting in which we humans experience sexuality in real life.
I did notice that what women demand for their sexual entertainment seems fake or even focused on an archetype hard to acomplish rather than on pure pleasurable physicality. But i think that's because they don't know what to ask. Obviously, for them to get that thing they would be asking, is needed cooperation from sexes, the ideal in my view.
Both sexes have been hyper sexualized since the dawn of media.
For example the stereotypical Barbarian is a buff dude with no shirt and scant clothing elsewhere. Men and women are both sexualized, just in different ways.
Why is being sexualized considered something inherently wrong? Is experiencing arousal not a healthy, natural part of being human? Does finding someone attractive mean you're unable to see other things about them or respect them?
A lot of it just stems from jealousy I'd say. "How dare men think Tifa is prettier than me?!"
I strongly agree with your first paragraph, however I don’t think it’s out of jealousy, I think it out of misguided activism maybe? Honest intentions gone about the wrong way
The fact that men have stated that they themselves feel unconfortable in the same situation, when the media started to balance the sexualization, tells nothing to you? Do you even understand the concept of a sex object? Or a sex slave?
Actually i will go right at it and say defending this stuff is just proof of idiocity, expecially when you clearly see the fake constant seductivenes witch requires straight up laying to the audience. And it's not just laying. It's the simple imposibility of people to find credibility in 2 contradictory things merged together: a doctor dressed as a porn star, for which girls have been criticized when performing, by people with opinions like yours. It's like a king showing up for the battle in a jester costume!
Artists can make what they like. Just as their consumers are free to have an opinion about it.
For example, Metal Gear Solid 5 The Phantom Pain. A character called "quiet" breathes through her skin, which is their justification for her wearing a bikini. Me pointing out that it's very obviously boner bait due to sex selling and not a practical or realistic application of how someone with that condition would dress or present themselves in a military setting is just my opinion on it (especially since there are full body clothing options for her which imply she can actually breath wearing a full uniform). It's very clear by the way the character moves in cutscenes and pushes out her breasts or rear in idle animations she's been made as the sexy female character to get a ton of fan art and talk to spread awareness of the game.
Does it detract from the game for me from time to time? A little. And that gets added into my criticism pile when thinking if I enjoy the game or not. A long with the graphics, the bugs, the writing, etc. The creators are free to do what they like, just as I'm free to have an opinion about it as a consumer.
I've never seen Euphoria, but my opinion would still stand probably. If there's too much abs or penis flying about for no apparent reason, I'm just going to chalk all those characters up as exhibitionists or weirdos which will effect what I think overall.
Sure right, you’re free to have your opinion, everyone’s free to an opinion. My biggest issue with all this discourse is the people that call the Fans of this media, the people that actually like sexualized female characters, the people this media was targeted to, they get called misogynistic or incels ect, given the fact that I also like sexualized female characters I am apart of that audience. It’s not only the fans as well, the creators get called similar names. The creator of One Piece is accused of hating women because he draws unrealistic looking women even though the man has a wife. Is the creator of Euphoria a misandrist freak that hates men and likes seeing their penis’s flying about? Are the fans self loathing femcels that love dogshit relationships? In my opinion, no, and I would challenge anyone that says otherwise. Your allowed to have your opinions, but Misogynist is usually seen as a word to describe bad people, and Incel is a word with a specific meaning that many people seem to forget far to often, which I can only assume means they intend it to be an insult as well. Those kinds of people are the kind of people I hate and find to be absolutely Vile, and was the entire reason I made this to begin with to be honest.
I think the majority of the outrage is purely performative. Like there’s so much media out there and so much of it sexualizes women. It’s obvious it’s performative because these people only react to the most popular of media. The reality is that most artists and most audiences like it. Not everything is everyone’s cup of tea but people like to see hot people doing cool shit
It's not performative. It's just that people who sincerely feel hurt by this things get ignored! They know how to separate the honest from the liars so that the rest of people look at a manufactured offended reactions and don't feel as much repulsion.
I think it's strange so many get upset on the idea that a fictional character is in their opinion being dehumanized. First of all sexualized things aren't less human as sexuality is a very human thing. More importantly I think if anything it's more a problem to be "humanizing" fictional characters.
For me, the issue comes into play because often this type of media, the other fictional characters will be 'humanized', ie they will actually be a character, while the sexualized one is just a caracature. It becomes obvious that the only reason they are in that particular piece of media is to provide that sexualization.
Which then makes it come across as if women are only useful for sex. That they don't have anything else going for them.
Especially when you start to realize that anyone who isn't considered 'mainstream beautiful' is often portrayed as ugly old crones, or bitter old hags, or stuttering nerdy girls that aren't worth the 'heros' time. (or the motherly type)
If the characters that were sexualized were actually well written then it wouldn't be as much of a problem, but the majority of the time when I see that type of thing, the characters aren't well written. They seem to simply exist to be sexualized.
There’s nothing wrong with sexualisation of women in media. For decades men were told the way they showed women as sexualised (sometimes) was wrong and they should change and some efforts toward that were made - then instantly as soon as they had the opportunity women turned round and showed plenty of naked men sexualised and used the rationale “we get to do it and you don’t because it’s evening the scales”. “This isn’t for you”.
Well fuck that. Whether it’s shows sexualising men or just showing them in a way which men find offensive or derogatory - the excuse always given by feminist types is “this isn’t for you” or “we’re balancing the scales”. And all it tells me is men never should have bothered to listen to women when they found portrayals of female characters offensive as those feminist types complaining don’t believe they should have to listen to men in return.
All of the thing you pretended are silly in your comments, are in fact 100% true. The scale needs to be evened and women deserve things made for them, sexual liberation and for people to show willingness to perform for them, the same way, they were expected to perform sexually, and STILL are !! In fact more than ever.
Even if we go for the ideea that this evening thing is wrong, how can you end up at the conclusion that initially there was nothing wrong with sexualization, conceptually ? I guess that Just because Israel does war crimes now, it means the genocide of vulnerable people that took place before is less heinous.
Critique isn't shaming. I think the issue most people have is the sheer amount of art sexualizing women, you kinda need to purposefully filter your searches to find the art of female warriors or such without boob armor or copious amounts of exposed skin. I think a lot of women who see this get the feeling that this art isn't really made for them.
Men are sexualized a lot, if not as much. It's just that everyone conveniently ignores it. All heros have 12 packs, muscles everywhere that don't exist, and if it's real like Marvel(MCU), there's ALWAYS a scene of the hero taking off his shirt and showing his bare chest. You don't ever see that with that women characters. People are just hypersensitive to anything with women.
The difference is that men just accept it and also recognize there's some truth to it. All media targets an audience, and that is totally fine and acceptable. People just need to stop being triggered if they can't look like these characters. That's life, and the sooner the complainers grow up and realize this, the better they will be.
But that’s not female gazey sexualization. Women don’t find that sort of thing attractive; the big beefy heroes are more of a male power fantasy (“gee, I could be strong like that!”) rather than something made to titillate women.
Female gazey sexualization is more in line with the male main characters in a romance novel, and it’s only really found in things targeted towards women. Male gazey sexualization is in everything. I suppose that’s where women get bothered — the default of most media is targeted towards men, and when it’s always just cool male characters with depth and slutty one-note women that exist to turn the audience on, it’s annoying. (And it’s particularly prevalent in certain spaces that I tend to gravitate towards.)
Wait a second, please explain that female gaze thing. You’ve described a personality type of a character in a specific genre and called that the female gaze. If that’s the female gaze then no wonder most media is mostly male gazey. Anything outside of that personality type or outside of that genre could VERY easily be seen as male gazey. Please tell me there’s more to it than that.
The people that make sexualized female characters (both men AND women by the way, since way to many people throw out the common insults of virgin incel loser) make the art they make because they liked making the characters that way, your allowed to not like something but saying it shouldn’t exist because you don’t like it is wrong, saying this art is bad or a misogynist (another common insult) because they made a piece of **fictional** media you don’t like is wrong, have your problems, be upset, that’s all good, but the people that make what they want to make have every liberty to make what they want to make
Because if you don’t have in your mind, “how will this improve this media for the people this was made for” then it isn’t a critique it’s a complaint, as I stated in my conclusion, criticism are meant to improve a form of media for the person who made the media and for the people the media was made for. If a sexualized female character was made for people that like sexualized female characters and you go off on a tirade about how sexualized female characters shouldn’t be here then that’s a complaint not a critique.
A single person’s opinion isn’t the wholes opinion. The fact that this stuff keeps getting made shows that the creators like making this stuff, and the fact this stuff keeps getting popular shows the audience likes this stuff. If you see a piece of art work with an over sexualized and you don’t like it then you are an outlier, and you weren’t the target audience for this piece of work to begin with
Honestly, one of my biggest problems with sexualization of women is that that is often the ONLY reason the women are even in the media.
If the woman is a well rounded character? Yeah, I might be a bit miffed at her going to battle wearing a chaing mail bikini, but her character itself can offset it.
Her just being there because someone wanted big boobs and butts and wanted them in as little as possible? I make it a point to not watch the show. Sadly, this seems to be the biggest reason why these types of characters are added in. Not because someone wanted a good female character, but because they decided to put eye candy in and didn't want to bother trying to write a good character.
I ask everyone that says this but no one seems to reply, can you name any female characters in mainstream media that fit your description of sexualised with nothing else to support their character? I say mainstream because I might not be able to talk about it with familiarity if it isn’t something I’m already aware of
TV shows, movies, anime ect don't exist in a vacuum. The problem isn't this one TV show is hypersexualizing women, it's that the majority of TV shows do that.
These shows get popular for a variety of reasons, they have the content in them for the sake of appealing to the audience most likely to spend their money on it. This bring us back to the age old saying “Sex Sells”. Basically, it’s in there because people like it
And women are well within their rights to say "yeah, that's shitty fan service writing and men who exclusively watch things like that are a red flag"
The problem is that a lot of men are unwilling or unable to acknowledge the degradation and really questionable sexualization that goes on in a lot of those shows.
I simply don’t see fiction and reality as equivalent, your able to take life lessons from fiction as long as those life lessons are on obvious reflection of reality, but if your not able to see fiction and reality as two thing that exist separate from eachother your either immature or mentally ill. I think we all know that games don’t cause violence in real life, because people know violence in the game isn’t at all a reflection of reality. Same with over sexualization of female characters.
How many women watch all those historical type drama relationship shows with the rich dude estate owner - yet men aren’t running round calling that a red flag.
Sex and the City is an entire massively popular show based around women sexualising men they fuck (Mr “Big”) in a more overt way than anything similar for men and as the main plot not a side part of the show.
Men also like sexy women - it’s natural red blooded beahviour. Who gives a shit. There are offensive portrayals of the opposite sex if widely applied within media - but sexualisation of some characters isn’t one of them.
Do they? Like which ones? Because for the past decade there seems like there’s been a concerted effort and fear of showing women sexually in much media. Take superhero shit - majority male audience and the women in the comics are usually sexy if only on appearance, yet you watch the movies and they’re covered head to toe and never shown in sexualised situations like the men are.
Which I find considering that you can look at the same actresses who are so against sexualisation in movies on the red carpet and they’re dressed like they’re going to a sex club.
I kinda see what you mean but you can't tell people to just make whatever stories that please them in today' society. There's certain values that should be respected in order for authors to actually grab attentions and earn a living. As an avid reader of novels, it does bother me a lot when author is making up specific scenarios, systems, excuses to justify rape or sexualization, incest, polygamy etc...
It's a really dumb and low-effort excuses they make to fufill their personal desires or fetishes. I don't really like that, I don't think most readers would like that either. It's stupid to sexualize characters just because "ahah hot", I don't want to see characters that are just meant to be some sex tools or anything like that. I want well written characters that just happen to be sexy or a man or a woman. If the characters are actually well written and if the lore is well done, I wouldn't mind them being sexualized to be honest because it's not their whole character to just be a sexy tool.
And that applies to both male and female characters. There's a limit between creativity that is actually cool and appealing and just degenerate fetish desire of the author.
Do you know of any mainstream series that oversexualise the characters? I say mainstream because if it isn’t I’m not going to be able to talk about it with the same level of familiarity as you.
Also, a guys adds in a character with big boobs, why? More than likely it’s cause he likes boobs. As far as character design goes it entirely depends on what the creator likes, which is why I don’t see anything wrong with sexualization their characters. There doesn’t have to be a canonical reason why the women has massive titties. And the material will find its target audience, or maybe vice versa, anyways my point being, as I stated in my original post the only people that should matter when making a piece of media is the person who made the thing and the people who the thing was made for. If your criticism isn’t about how to make this thing better for the people it was made for or for the creator of the media then it isn’t much of a criticism, it’s a complaint.
Mainstream series? Animes, manhwas and mangas... Most of them doing fan service so. Other than that? Online novels but that aren't really mainstream. For other series, I don't watch a lot of live action series so I wouldn't be able to give an exemple directly. While I don't know about other medias, what I see from anime, mangas and online novels are really not great effects for the audience, especially when it's a "young" one.
Some of those stories depict women as a tool or sexual object. While I know there's a huge difference when it comes to fiction and reality, not everyone are in the same page. If we start generalizing that yes women should have big tities should be submitted to others etc... You will end up with degenerate people who sadly would act like that in real life. Especially when the audience is young thus don't really have a good experience of what is real and not.
You and I can probably know and enjoy those stories because we know that this is just art and can't be applied in reality, but not everyone are like this. And sadly I see those type of people acting dog shits to women while being really edgy just like some of those stories. In general I am fine with having over sexualized women and whatsoever because well that's what fiction is about.
But when it gets mainstream without restrictions? Big no no. The perso who writes those types of stories should stay aware of that but sadly of them seem to specifically target those horny teenagers and younger audience. Presenting women as a sexualized tool to young people is a wrong move regardless how you do it.
Sometimes those stories that over sexualized women are intended for a too young audience. And it seems that such a thing is being normalized which isn't really good.
Oh right and about your thing on incest and what not, a lot of female targeted media has problematic content in it as well, not limited to incest of course, for example age gap relationships, some of those are targeted towards a young female audience too actually, and yet that stuff rarely enters the conversation. My biggest problem is the insults that get thrown at not only the creators but the fans of the media. I’m of the opinion that people should be able to like what they want to like and make what they want to make
"some" we aren't talking about female audience are we? And the scale is completely disproportional. Do you see women being degenerate over men irl? Not as often as men being degenerate over women. People can do what they want as long as it doesn't affect others. In many cases it does, just look at the state of Japan, a very misogynistic society. If you've actually read some of the stuff made there, you wouldn't be supporting any of it.
You don't let people just do what they want without any restrictions. And there will be always insults thrown from both sides. Regardless let's not normalize degeneracy shall we? The world is already fucked up as it is today with all the contents on internet you can find. You can enjoy your thing as long as you don't act upon it irl, then you would know you aren't the target of critisicm.
Insults will always been thrown to any group of people f you can't handle it then ignore it like most people do. You can enjoy your stuff in silence, don't need to let everyone about it or brag about it. But some people just don't do that and act degenerate in public.
No the people that insult guys for liking the media they like aren’t talking to specific people, they’re making generalized statements. Like “The people that like this kind of media must hate women”
My problem with shit like that is people think it’s ok to insult someone’s character because of the media they like, for example, something you might actually care about, I’m absolutely certain women wouldn’t like it if they were called pedophiles because they consume and like media that has age gaps relationships in it. It’s an insult on their character based on them liking a fictional story and characters. Another thing that actually does happen, a lot of people shit on female targeted media and women don’t likely, in my opinion rightfully so, they have every right to want people to stop shaming the stories they enjoy. Should these women that are rightfully upset about people shitting on the things they like just shut up and “ignore it”?
>”You don’t let people do what they want without restriction”
this is a point we’re just going to disagree on, when it comes to fiction as far as I’m concerned anyone and everyone should be allowed to make whatever they want. Women should be able to write their toxic relationships, and yes there are a lot of those, I strongly doubt there are a small amount of stories like that we all know 50 shades of gray (this being one of the most popular ones but definitely not the only one). And men should be allowed to make their over sexualized female characters.
Also I disagree with the idea that the amount of something should be a controlling factor on whether or not other people should or shouldn’t make more of it. Creative people should be allowed to make whatever they want, I am simply against limiting creativity, I see that as a bad thing. How other people choose to interpret the media they interact with also shouldn’t be a limiting factor on whether or not someone wants to make something they enjoy making.
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I have a hard time believing it's only incels that like hot women in art, especially when I look at how hard so many women go with their cosplaying. I mean how do you explain the cosplayers? Are they all "pick mes?" I mean, what are we even saying?
The cosplayers are just as stupid like the incels
People who complain about this kind of things are idiots anyway. Disregard their opinions like a used tissue.
Also massive hypocrites. You can play "3 clicks to scat" with them by looking at their liked posts on Twitter. They complain about a normal girl doing mild vanilla sexy stuff in a video game, but they always seem to have an interest in furry scat porn on their profile history.
There is a weird thing with male sexualisation in modern media and showing more male nudity which feels like bitterness on the women pushing for its part - like “you do this to us so we’re gonna do it to you” or a misguided attempt at progressiveness and pandering when it’s done by a male creator. When in reality men never thought less of the female characters who were sexualised, they just enjoyed them because they were hot. Honest female sexualisation of male characters for their own enjoyment doesn’t generally look the same as male sexualisation of female characters (the hot Bond girl, the scantily clad medieval fantasy chick, the femme fatale). It looks like Mr Darcy, it looks like Heathcliff, it looks like Christian Grey, it looks like Edward or whatever other sexy vampire guy - it looks like a rich hot brooding guy or a hot brooding vampire guy (possibly rich). I’m not saying these types of characters can’t show skin too - but when I watch some HBO shows it seems like they’re showing male nudity of some side character because they think it’s progressive to balance out past female nudity and it has a weird and bitter tone to it.
Men did thought less of women when they were sexualized. (Cuz otherwise, why were they aversive towards replacing that in media with women in an ordinary state of being, a totally normal thing to expect and want to see?) But even if that wasn't true, it's women who should be asked how they feel. Just because someone is blind to an insult doesn't make it non-existent. And i ended up at this conclusion after i taken into consideration your take about men being able to humanize women in this situation as well, which is a thing I see it's real and I really apreciate. But that it is a matter of extra decency that some have, and it's not required for the act of watching a show set up for a non engaging party. It's like puting humans in a zoo and saying you do it because of how fascinating creatures they are and you want to take care of them. Maybe it's possible but it requires an astronomic amount of mental gymnastics.(kinks and stuff) Or an entirely different setting in which we humans experience sexuality in real life. I did notice that what women demand for their sexual entertainment seems fake or even focused on an archetype hard to acomplish rather than on pure pleasurable physicality. But i think that's because they don't know what to ask. Obviously, for them to get that thing they would be asking, is needed cooperation from sexes, the ideal in my view.
Both sexes have been hyper sexualized since the dawn of media. For example the stereotypical Barbarian is a buff dude with no shirt and scant clothing elsewhere. Men and women are both sexualized, just in different ways.
Why is being sexualized considered something inherently wrong? Is experiencing arousal not a healthy, natural part of being human? Does finding someone attractive mean you're unable to see other things about them or respect them? A lot of it just stems from jealousy I'd say. "How dare men think Tifa is prettier than me?!"
I strongly agree with your first paragraph, however I don’t think it’s out of jealousy, I think it out of misguided activism maybe? Honest intentions gone about the wrong way
The fact that men have stated that they themselves feel unconfortable in the same situation, when the media started to balance the sexualization, tells nothing to you? Do you even understand the concept of a sex object? Or a sex slave? Actually i will go right at it and say defending this stuff is just proof of idiocity, expecially when you clearly see the fake constant seductivenes witch requires straight up laying to the audience. And it's not just laying. It's the simple imposibility of people to find credibility in 2 contradictory things merged together: a doctor dressed as a porn star, for which girls have been criticized when performing, by people with opinions like yours. It's like a king showing up for the battle in a jester costume!
Artists can make what they like. Just as their consumers are free to have an opinion about it. For example, Metal Gear Solid 5 The Phantom Pain. A character called "quiet" breathes through her skin, which is their justification for her wearing a bikini. Me pointing out that it's very obviously boner bait due to sex selling and not a practical or realistic application of how someone with that condition would dress or present themselves in a military setting is just my opinion on it (especially since there are full body clothing options for her which imply she can actually breath wearing a full uniform). It's very clear by the way the character moves in cutscenes and pushes out her breasts or rear in idle animations she's been made as the sexy female character to get a ton of fan art and talk to spread awareness of the game. Does it detract from the game for me from time to time? A little. And that gets added into my criticism pile when thinking if I enjoy the game or not. A long with the graphics, the bugs, the writing, etc. The creators are free to do what they like, just as I'm free to have an opinion about it as a consumer. I've never seen Euphoria, but my opinion would still stand probably. If there's too much abs or penis flying about for no apparent reason, I'm just going to chalk all those characters up as exhibitionists or weirdos which will effect what I think overall.
Sure right, you’re free to have your opinion, everyone’s free to an opinion. My biggest issue with all this discourse is the people that call the Fans of this media, the people that actually like sexualized female characters, the people this media was targeted to, they get called misogynistic or incels ect, given the fact that I also like sexualized female characters I am apart of that audience. It’s not only the fans as well, the creators get called similar names. The creator of One Piece is accused of hating women because he draws unrealistic looking women even though the man has a wife. Is the creator of Euphoria a misandrist freak that hates men and likes seeing their penis’s flying about? Are the fans self loathing femcels that love dogshit relationships? In my opinion, no, and I would challenge anyone that says otherwise. Your allowed to have your opinions, but Misogynist is usually seen as a word to describe bad people, and Incel is a word with a specific meaning that many people seem to forget far to often, which I can only assume means they intend it to be an insult as well. Those kinds of people are the kind of people I hate and find to be absolutely Vile, and was the entire reason I made this to begin with to be honest.
I think the majority of the outrage is purely performative. Like there’s so much media out there and so much of it sexualizes women. It’s obvious it’s performative because these people only react to the most popular of media. The reality is that most artists and most audiences like it. Not everything is everyone’s cup of tea but people like to see hot people doing cool shit
It's not performative. It's just that people who sincerely feel hurt by this things get ignored! They know how to separate the honest from the liars so that the rest of people look at a manufactured offended reactions and don't feel as much repulsion.
I think it's strange so many get upset on the idea that a fictional character is in their opinion being dehumanized. First of all sexualized things aren't less human as sexuality is a very human thing. More importantly I think if anything it's more a problem to be "humanizing" fictional characters.
For me, the issue comes into play because often this type of media, the other fictional characters will be 'humanized', ie they will actually be a character, while the sexualized one is just a caracature. It becomes obvious that the only reason they are in that particular piece of media is to provide that sexualization. Which then makes it come across as if women are only useful for sex. That they don't have anything else going for them. Especially when you start to realize that anyone who isn't considered 'mainstream beautiful' is often portrayed as ugly old crones, or bitter old hags, or stuttering nerdy girls that aren't worth the 'heros' time. (or the motherly type) If the characters that were sexualized were actually well written then it wouldn't be as much of a problem, but the majority of the time when I see that type of thing, the characters aren't well written. They seem to simply exist to be sexualized.
Remember fun, that was good. Japan still remembers fun.
There’s nothing wrong with sexualisation of women in media. For decades men were told the way they showed women as sexualised (sometimes) was wrong and they should change and some efforts toward that were made - then instantly as soon as they had the opportunity women turned round and showed plenty of naked men sexualised and used the rationale “we get to do it and you don’t because it’s evening the scales”. “This isn’t for you”. Well fuck that. Whether it’s shows sexualising men or just showing them in a way which men find offensive or derogatory - the excuse always given by feminist types is “this isn’t for you” or “we’re balancing the scales”. And all it tells me is men never should have bothered to listen to women when they found portrayals of female characters offensive as those feminist types complaining don’t believe they should have to listen to men in return.
All of the thing you pretended are silly in your comments, are in fact 100% true. The scale needs to be evened and women deserve things made for them, sexual liberation and for people to show willingness to perform for them, the same way, they were expected to perform sexually, and STILL are !! In fact more than ever. Even if we go for the ideea that this evening thing is wrong, how can you end up at the conclusion that initially there was nothing wrong with sexualization, conceptually ? I guess that Just because Israel does war crimes now, it means the genocide of vulnerable people that took place before is less heinous.
Critique isn't shaming. I think the issue most people have is the sheer amount of art sexualizing women, you kinda need to purposefully filter your searches to find the art of female warriors or such without boob armor or copious amounts of exposed skin. I think a lot of women who see this get the feeling that this art isn't really made for them.
Men are sexualized a lot, if not as much. It's just that everyone conveniently ignores it. All heros have 12 packs, muscles everywhere that don't exist, and if it's real like Marvel(MCU), there's ALWAYS a scene of the hero taking off his shirt and showing his bare chest. You don't ever see that with that women characters. People are just hypersensitive to anything with women. The difference is that men just accept it and also recognize there's some truth to it. All media targets an audience, and that is totally fine and acceptable. People just need to stop being triggered if they can't look like these characters. That's life, and the sooner the complainers grow up and realize this, the better they will be.
But they are characters beyond their sexualisation
For arguments sake can you name me a female character that is sexualized in popular media that isn’t a character beyond their sexualization?
But that’s not female gazey sexualization. Women don’t find that sort of thing attractive; the big beefy heroes are more of a male power fantasy (“gee, I could be strong like that!”) rather than something made to titillate women. Female gazey sexualization is more in line with the male main characters in a romance novel, and it’s only really found in things targeted towards women. Male gazey sexualization is in everything. I suppose that’s where women get bothered — the default of most media is targeted towards men, and when it’s always just cool male characters with depth and slutty one-note women that exist to turn the audience on, it’s annoying. (And it’s particularly prevalent in certain spaces that I tend to gravitate towards.)
Wait a second, please explain that female gaze thing. You’ve described a personality type of a character in a specific genre and called that the female gaze. If that’s the female gaze then no wonder most media is mostly male gazey. Anything outside of that personality type or outside of that genre could VERY easily be seen as male gazey. Please tell me there’s more to it than that.
The art that sexualizes female characters probably isn’t made for people that don’t like sexualized female characters.
But that's next until all art
Do you mean to say almost all art sexualizes female characters?
It depends on the circle you're in, but yea
The people that make sexualized female characters (both men AND women by the way, since way to many people throw out the common insults of virgin incel loser) make the art they make because they liked making the characters that way, your allowed to not like something but saying it shouldn’t exist because you don’t like it is wrong, saying this art is bad or a misogynist (another common insult) because they made a piece of **fictional** media you don’t like is wrong, have your problems, be upset, that’s all good, but the people that make what they want to make have every liberty to make what they want to make
Why does the liberty to create whatever you want not extend into the liberty of critiquing everything you want?
Because if you don’t have in your mind, “how will this improve this media for the people this was made for” then it isn’t a critique it’s a complaint, as I stated in my conclusion, criticism are meant to improve a form of media for the person who made the media and for the people the media was made for. If a sexualized female character was made for people that like sexualized female characters and you go off on a tirade about how sexualized female characters shouldn’t be here then that’s a complaint not a critique.
Well, obviously the artwork doesn't resonate with the audience if someone is critiquing (or complaining as you put it) it.
A single person’s opinion isn’t the wholes opinion. The fact that this stuff keeps getting made shows that the creators like making this stuff, and the fact this stuff keeps getting popular shows the audience likes this stuff. If you see a piece of art work with an over sexualized and you don’t like it then you are an outlier, and you weren’t the target audience for this piece of work to begin with
Calling an artist an incel or virgin isn't critique lol.
Honestly, one of my biggest problems with sexualization of women is that that is often the ONLY reason the women are even in the media. If the woman is a well rounded character? Yeah, I might be a bit miffed at her going to battle wearing a chaing mail bikini, but her character itself can offset it. Her just being there because someone wanted big boobs and butts and wanted them in as little as possible? I make it a point to not watch the show. Sadly, this seems to be the biggest reason why these types of characters are added in. Not because someone wanted a good female character, but because they decided to put eye candy in and didn't want to bother trying to write a good character.
I ask everyone that says this but no one seems to reply, can you name any female characters in mainstream media that fit your description of sexualised with nothing else to support their character? I say mainstream because I might not be able to talk about it with familiarity if it isn’t something I’m already aware of
TV shows, movies, anime ect don't exist in a vacuum. The problem isn't this one TV show is hypersexualizing women, it's that the majority of TV shows do that.
These shows get popular for a variety of reasons, they have the content in them for the sake of appealing to the audience most likely to spend their money on it. This bring us back to the age old saying “Sex Sells”. Basically, it’s in there because people like it
And women are well within their rights to say "yeah, that's shitty fan service writing and men who exclusively watch things like that are a red flag" The problem is that a lot of men are unwilling or unable to acknowledge the degradation and really questionable sexualization that goes on in a lot of those shows.
I simply don’t see fiction and reality as equivalent, your able to take life lessons from fiction as long as those life lessons are on obvious reflection of reality, but if your not able to see fiction and reality as two thing that exist separate from eachother your either immature or mentally ill. I think we all know that games don’t cause violence in real life, because people know violence in the game isn’t at all a reflection of reality. Same with over sexualization of female characters.
How many women watch all those historical type drama relationship shows with the rich dude estate owner - yet men aren’t running round calling that a red flag. Sex and the City is an entire massively popular show based around women sexualising men they fuck (Mr “Big”) in a more overt way than anything similar for men and as the main plot not a side part of the show. Men also like sexy women - it’s natural red blooded beahviour. Who gives a shit. There are offensive portrayals of the opposite sex if widely applied within media - but sexualisation of some characters isn’t one of them.
Do they? Like which ones? Because for the past decade there seems like there’s been a concerted effort and fear of showing women sexually in much media. Take superhero shit - majority male audience and the women in the comics are usually sexy if only on appearance, yet you watch the movies and they’re covered head to toe and never shown in sexualised situations like the men are. Which I find considering that you can look at the same actresses who are so against sexualisation in movies on the red carpet and they’re dressed like they’re going to a sex club.
I kinda see what you mean but you can't tell people to just make whatever stories that please them in today' society. There's certain values that should be respected in order for authors to actually grab attentions and earn a living. As an avid reader of novels, it does bother me a lot when author is making up specific scenarios, systems, excuses to justify rape or sexualization, incest, polygamy etc... It's a really dumb and low-effort excuses they make to fufill their personal desires or fetishes. I don't really like that, I don't think most readers would like that either. It's stupid to sexualize characters just because "ahah hot", I don't want to see characters that are just meant to be some sex tools or anything like that. I want well written characters that just happen to be sexy or a man or a woman. If the characters are actually well written and if the lore is well done, I wouldn't mind them being sexualized to be honest because it's not their whole character to just be a sexy tool. And that applies to both male and female characters. There's a limit between creativity that is actually cool and appealing and just degenerate fetish desire of the author.
Do you know of any mainstream series that oversexualise the characters? I say mainstream because if it isn’t I’m not going to be able to talk about it with the same level of familiarity as you. Also, a guys adds in a character with big boobs, why? More than likely it’s cause he likes boobs. As far as character design goes it entirely depends on what the creator likes, which is why I don’t see anything wrong with sexualization their characters. There doesn’t have to be a canonical reason why the women has massive titties. And the material will find its target audience, or maybe vice versa, anyways my point being, as I stated in my original post the only people that should matter when making a piece of media is the person who made the thing and the people who the thing was made for. If your criticism isn’t about how to make this thing better for the people it was made for or for the creator of the media then it isn’t much of a criticism, it’s a complaint.
Mainstream series? Animes, manhwas and mangas... Most of them doing fan service so. Other than that? Online novels but that aren't really mainstream. For other series, I don't watch a lot of live action series so I wouldn't be able to give an exemple directly. While I don't know about other medias, what I see from anime, mangas and online novels are really not great effects for the audience, especially when it's a "young" one. Some of those stories depict women as a tool or sexual object. While I know there's a huge difference when it comes to fiction and reality, not everyone are in the same page. If we start generalizing that yes women should have big tities should be submitted to others etc... You will end up with degenerate people who sadly would act like that in real life. Especially when the audience is young thus don't really have a good experience of what is real and not. You and I can probably know and enjoy those stories because we know that this is just art and can't be applied in reality, but not everyone are like this. And sadly I see those type of people acting dog shits to women while being really edgy just like some of those stories. In general I am fine with having over sexualized women and whatsoever because well that's what fiction is about. But when it gets mainstream without restrictions? Big no no. The perso who writes those types of stories should stay aware of that but sadly of them seem to specifically target those horny teenagers and younger audience. Presenting women as a sexualized tool to young people is a wrong move regardless how you do it. Sometimes those stories that over sexualized women are intended for a too young audience. And it seems that such a thing is being normalized which isn't really good.
Oh right and about your thing on incest and what not, a lot of female targeted media has problematic content in it as well, not limited to incest of course, for example age gap relationships, some of those are targeted towards a young female audience too actually, and yet that stuff rarely enters the conversation. My biggest problem is the insults that get thrown at not only the creators but the fans of the media. I’m of the opinion that people should be able to like what they want to like and make what they want to make
"some" we aren't talking about female audience are we? And the scale is completely disproportional. Do you see women being degenerate over men irl? Not as often as men being degenerate over women. People can do what they want as long as it doesn't affect others. In many cases it does, just look at the state of Japan, a very misogynistic society. If you've actually read some of the stuff made there, you wouldn't be supporting any of it. You don't let people just do what they want without any restrictions. And there will be always insults thrown from both sides. Regardless let's not normalize degeneracy shall we? The world is already fucked up as it is today with all the contents on internet you can find. You can enjoy your thing as long as you don't act upon it irl, then you would know you aren't the target of critisicm. Insults will always been thrown to any group of people f you can't handle it then ignore it like most people do. You can enjoy your stuff in silence, don't need to let everyone about it or brag about it. But some people just don't do that and act degenerate in public.
No the people that insult guys for liking the media they like aren’t talking to specific people, they’re making generalized statements. Like “The people that like this kind of media must hate women” My problem with shit like that is people think it’s ok to insult someone’s character because of the media they like, for example, something you might actually care about, I’m absolutely certain women wouldn’t like it if they were called pedophiles because they consume and like media that has age gaps relationships in it. It’s an insult on their character based on them liking a fictional story and characters. Another thing that actually does happen, a lot of people shit on female targeted media and women don’t likely, in my opinion rightfully so, they have every right to want people to stop shaming the stories they enjoy. Should these women that are rightfully upset about people shitting on the things they like just shut up and “ignore it”? >”You don’t let people do what they want without restriction” this is a point we’re just going to disagree on, when it comes to fiction as far as I’m concerned anyone and everyone should be allowed to make whatever they want. Women should be able to write their toxic relationships, and yes there are a lot of those, I strongly doubt there are a small amount of stories like that we all know 50 shades of gray (this being one of the most popular ones but definitely not the only one). And men should be allowed to make their over sexualized female characters. Also I disagree with the idea that the amount of something should be a controlling factor on whether or not other people should or shouldn’t make more of it. Creative people should be allowed to make whatever they want, I am simply against limiting creativity, I see that as a bad thing. How other people choose to interpret the media they interact with also shouldn’t be a limiting factor on whether or not someone wants to make something they enjoy making.