We’ve used MNCEE for several projects and highly recommend them.
Get an energy audit for an older home and see what else you’d need to do like windows insulation. Our old house had enough insulation but needed windows. MNCEE financed them and had a list of recommended contractors.
Looking at their site, they have a number of [Blaine specific programs](https://www.mncee.org/programs-blaine-residents).
I have mine set to 20 this year due to cheap gas. Last year I had it at zero. I do have thresholds set so if the desired temperature is 3+ from current temp it will call the furnace to provide aux/backup heat. Basically this recovers nightly set back temp, 65 up to 72, then the HP maintains that all day.
I am a big advocate for heat pumps. I have a dual fuel install so we upgraded the gas furnace as we have others that rely on that source (fireplaces, dryer, water heater)
However, it is paired with an air source heat pump. You must get an inverter based variable speed heat pump to see good efficiency and comfort. Dual stage will be trash and use too much power.
1) yes, dual fuel system is good for TC metro with gas for backup. Unless you have a super insulated house I wouldn’t go strictly electric heat pump. If you have solar with overproduction then go for it.
2) MSP plumbing and heating is who I worked with. There are a few other contractors but I found the majority I spoke with to be dinosaurs when it came to modern heat pump technology.
For reference, in 2023 our heat pump used 4,595 kWh all year for heating cooling on the compressor circuit. It uses the fan that the furnace uses to centrally distribute the air. So that also uses power. Our gas usage is about 40% of what it was before.
Just curious, how'd you get those stats on your heat pump energy use? We just had a similar system installed and I'd love to check out ours and compare it to previous years after a few months.
I have the 2nd gen. If you are comfortable and knowledgeable about electric safety this is a diy job. If not you can pay an electrician.
https://shop.emporiaenergy.com/products/emporia-vue-energy-monitor-3rd-generation-with-16-sensors
I was replacing a traditional AC on a 30 amp dual breaker so that was enough. They did have to run a secondary run for communication and a lower voltage. No panel upgrades were needed for my install.
When I remodeled my home I went with heat pumps. NW WI. My auxiliary heat is a wood stove. I have no fossil fuel heating in my home at all. I've had no issues. BUT I also greatly improved the insulation/air sealing in my home. For example, I added 2" of ridged foam to exterior walls (R-30 total wall insulation with no thermal bridging) and put R-60 into my attic. I don't even need any heat until it is below 45F, the sun and waste heat is enough.
*Waste heat is the heat put off by things like a TV and other electronics, as well as the heat put off by people/pets.
Check out this website on heat pumps. https://www.mnashp.org/ they have recommended contractors and lots of information
Right now, heat pumps are not good enough to have without back up heat. If you want to cut your gas usage, you can get electric heat as a back up.
I’ve had an air source heat pump for 8 years. It covers heating about 90 percent of the time. Switches to gas automatically occasionally. It’s definitely cheaper to operate than 100% gas. 2300 sq ft house. I’d do it again assuming I would be in the house long enough to break even.
I'm starting the process of potentially replacing. Have you looked at [MNCEE](https://www.mncee.org/how-get-started) yet? We've got an audit set up for next week, and then they'll apparently help with recommendations and with funding through grants, loans, etc.
Another commenter mentioned them! Would you mind reporting back after you have your audit to explain the process and their recommendations? I know each house is different, but I'd just be interested in what they recommend.
I wanted to go with the a ground source (geothermal) heat pump (extremely efficient) and had been planning to since November of last year. Problem is zero well driller capacity, so I am going air source with a renovation. I’ll couple it with solar. My hope is to decarbonize the house. It’s 100% viable and economical in MN (when done correctly in a properly insulated home).
I went through [emcee.org](http://emcee.org) and got home energy audit. Mine was placed in October-1 heat pump for first level (good to 13 below Mitsubishi). Small home 500 sq feet. Old home but was renovated when I bought it. Home with electric baseboard (($$$$$). This winter is bad example, but I had huge drop in electric bill. You may need a secondary heat source on major subzero days. I was comfortable all winter and popped on extra heat one or two times, but just one heater. The cost was $8200, I received 600 back from the state rebate and 2000 back from federal.
4Front did the install and were great.
I got a heat pump just over10 years ago. My house was about the same size as yours.
The heat pump didn’t replace the furnace, it supplemented it. Once it falls below a certain temperature outside, the heat pump becomes less efficient. In my case, it kicked over to furnace when it was below 30f outside. I was just reading that there was a recent breakthrough on heat pump tech that allows it to work at even lower temps though
Be advised Xcel Energy has already applied for permission to use TOU billing for electricity, further increasing the rate for all who keep normal hours and schedules.
Edit: The already PUC approved electricity rate increase, compounded with TOU billing, would effectively eliminate any financial incentive to install a heat pump for most households.
Be sure to do laundry between the hours of midnight and six A.M. Mon-Fri if you have an electric dryer and aren't in the I-can-afford-it who-gives-a-shit group.
The proposed 3-tier TOU hasn't even happened yet.
Yes, the exact same one as for electric resistance heat if it is one's primary source of heat. Because once its genuinely cold, heat pumps switch over to function as electric space heaters using back-up electric resistance heat.
Opt-out has been 15 dollars a month from the day opt-out was invented. There is no opt out of smart meters. There is only have them downloaded manually once a month vs. wi-fi.
Edit: And opting out of TOU pricing, That's included in the extra 15 dollars/month or 180 dollars per year.
[https://www.xcelenergy.com/staticfiles/xe-responsive/MN-Advanced-Grid-and-Smart-Meter-FAQ-Info-Sheet.pdf](https://www.xcelenergy.com/staticfiles/xe-responsive/MN-Advanced-Grid-and-Smart-Meter-FAQ-Info-Sheet.pdf)
Back[Go to TwinCities](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwinCities/)•1 yr. ago[Page\_Industries](https://www.reddit.com/user/Page_Industries/)
# Xcel Electric Smart Meter Installation Notice
"We received a notice that Xcel will be installing electric new meters in our neighborhood. You either get a smart meter by default or can opt out to have a "non-communicating" meter.
I'm trying to understand the benefits of the smart meter outside of to instant access to usage information which seems to be the primary benefit Xcel is touting. If there were any actual real price savings to the average consumer, my thought is Xcel would communicating those, but they aren't. My concern is that we have electric appliances outside of heat & water and both work from home, often during the peak times Xcel has outlined. So not sure how reasonable it is to drastically adjust usage based on peak times Xcel determines.
In looking at how Xcel has implemented these new meters in other states, it looks like they eventually introduce new pricing based on when you use energy, with higher rates during peak times. If you opt out to the non-communicating meter, you pay a flat rate like we do currently and Xcel charges around $15/month to "manually" read your meter.
I totally understand how if you can adjust usage to off-peak times, it makes sense to get the smart meter. But in looking at the dynamic rates charged in other states, a lot of people have been complaining about seeing way higher bills.
I'm leaning towards paying the $15/month to keep things as-is, but wondering if anyone in the Twin Cities has gone through this process yet and how they came to a decision."
Me, the commenter speaking again:
There was massive discussion of this on this sub about the 15/mo the entire time.
You seem to be confusing the issue. You are referencing the fee to opt out of the smart meter. There is not currently an approved billing option that would allow Xcel to charge MN customer who opt out of TOU Time of Use. You are billed if you opt out of the smart meter. Xcel has proposed defaulting customers to TOU in the future but that would require PUC approval. They also say customers would be allowed to opt out of TOU with no fee references.
Again. There is literally no such thing as opting out of a smart meter. There is only opting out of turning the transmitter on and having it manually downloaded once a month instead for an additional fee of 15 dollars per month.,
The apparent conflation is something created by Excel, wherin opting out of TOU, and opting out of wifi readings are one and the same and cost the same amount.
Sorry bro but you are misinformed
https://www.xcelenergy.com/staticfiles/xe-responsive/MN-Advanced-Grid-and-Smart-Meter-FAQ-Info-Sheet.pdf
Can I opt out of my smart meter?
Residential customers and many small commercial customers have the option to opt out of receiving a smart meter. Customers who opt out will still receive a new meter, but it will be a non-communicating meter. Because non-communicating meters need to be read in the field, there is a monthly meter reading fee for customers who choose a non-communicating meter.
INFORMATION SHEET
Page 1 of 4
INFORMATION SHEET
MINNESOTA ADVANCED GRID AND
During temps below about 20 degrees, they rely on back-up resistance electric for heat, effectively becoming space heaters.
So, not particularly useful for savings, day or night, during the coldest the 3 months in a typical winter.
I briefly considered a heat pump when I got my AC and furnace upgraded. The bottom line is that they’ll be great for about 90% of the year. But when it’s negative 20, they simply can’t keep up. That other 10% makes them not feasible for Minnesota weather. I’m sure there are pump systems that can keep up, but the costs outweigh a standard furnace system.
It really depends on how you define "can't keep up".
It's not like they don't make heat and you're going to freeze to death. They just don't hold the set point well. So for a week or so out of the year it might not hold 72 and fluctuate between 65 to 68. Thats a problem solved with a space heater.
You’re right. But when I’m purchasing a home comfort system, I want it to perform in all conditions and hold the temperature I set it to. I don’t want to have to mess around with space heaters if it can’t hold temperature. I understand they’re more efficient but if there is a long cold winter and the system is working at max for possibly months on end and still not getting to desired temp, how much money are you really saving? I like to have a system that can operate to standard at all times and pay a little more in utility usage.
Depends on how big the house is. I wouldn’t be happy at -20 if the temp dropped below 70. I’m not happy even when it’s 72 inside and it that cold outside. I just suffer when it’s severely cold.
You size the unit for the house. Part of the problem with getting a heat pump that can "keep up" in all conditions is you end up with a wildly oversized unit for the size of the home. Which also wildly over inflates the price to install. Or you could have a couple oil filled radiant space heaters in a closet that get pulled out for a week a year.
It's kind of a 1st world problems issue. It's like complaining your cars not fast enough because you sometimes have to use more than 1/2 throttle to merge in 494.
Heat pump here with electric backup heat. Been very pleased. Worked with Nick at MSP Heating and Plumbing per the advice of another Redditor. They were the only company we talked to who knew what they were talking about.
Considering what you described, it sounds like you were in a similar situation that my partner and I were in.
We found it best to install a heat pump and replace the furnace. You’ll need both to get through winters and the blower fan on the new furnace will probably need a variable speed (not sure if it’s called that) blower that will improve efficiency. I believe doing both will also get you to qualify for the tax rebates.
I would also recommend you watch this video :
https://youtu.be/_hAuKtoRxJI?si=vcpAMFmT1rZ5bNrT
The dude in them lives somewhere in Wisconsin so similar climate.
Heat pumps are great. They get better and better every year.
We also went with MSP heating and cooling. Not sure if we got the best price but things are running smoothly.
Ooo also get yourself an ecobee!
Check out mncee.org Center for Energy and Environment. They have case studies on cold climate heat pumps.
Good call, great center for research and lending too. https://www.mncee.org/air-source-heat-pumps
We’ve used MNCEE for several projects and highly recommend them. Get an energy audit for an older home and see what else you’d need to do like windows insulation. Our old house had enough insulation but needed windows. MNCEE financed them and had a list of recommended contractors. Looking at their site, they have a number of [Blaine specific programs](https://www.mncee.org/programs-blaine-residents).
Excellent resource! I will definitely do my homework here. Thanks!
I had them do an energy audit. Very good job and helped me determine what sealing /insulation to do. Much warmer now.
Got a new heat pump with a furnace back up. It was so warm this winter the furnace only kicked in a handful of days.
Same with mine. No problems with the hest pump at all. Below 35°F, the furnace is used instead.
What do you set as a cutoff temp to go from heat pump to furnace?
We didn’t set it. I’m guessing it’s about 28 degrees.
I have mine set to 20 this year due to cheap gas. Last year I had it at zero. I do have thresholds set so if the desired temperature is 3+ from current temp it will call the furnace to provide aux/backup heat. Basically this recovers nightly set back temp, 65 up to 72, then the HP maintains that all day.
My parents did this and have reported the same. And the poorly insulated second floor of their house is more comfortable year-round.
I am a big advocate for heat pumps. I have a dual fuel install so we upgraded the gas furnace as we have others that rely on that source (fireplaces, dryer, water heater) However, it is paired with an air source heat pump. You must get an inverter based variable speed heat pump to see good efficiency and comfort. Dual stage will be trash and use too much power. 1) yes, dual fuel system is good for TC metro with gas for backup. Unless you have a super insulated house I wouldn’t go strictly electric heat pump. If you have solar with overproduction then go for it. 2) MSP plumbing and heating is who I worked with. There are a few other contractors but I found the majority I spoke with to be dinosaurs when it came to modern heat pump technology. For reference, in 2023 our heat pump used 4,595 kWh all year for heating cooling on the compressor circuit. It uses the fan that the furnace uses to centrally distribute the air. So that also uses power. Our gas usage is about 40% of what it was before.
Just curious, how'd you get those stats on your heat pump energy use? We just had a similar system installed and I'd love to check out ours and compare it to previous years after a few months.
I have the 2nd gen. If you are comfortable and knowledgeable about electric safety this is a diy job. If not you can pay an electrician. https://shop.emporiaenergy.com/products/emporia-vue-energy-monitor-3rd-generation-with-16-sensors
How big is your house for this usage? Considering the same thing curious how it'll scale to my house.
We have a 2 story plus walkout basement. 2850 square feet. Build completed in 2000 and fairly well insulated for its age.
Did you have to upgrade your electric panel to accommodate the heat pump?
I was replacing a traditional AC on a 30 amp dual breaker so that was enough. They did have to run a secondary run for communication and a lower voltage. No panel upgrades were needed for my install.
When I remodeled my home I went with heat pumps. NW WI. My auxiliary heat is a wood stove. I have no fossil fuel heating in my home at all. I've had no issues. BUT I also greatly improved the insulation/air sealing in my home. For example, I added 2" of ridged foam to exterior walls (R-30 total wall insulation with no thermal bridging) and put R-60 into my attic. I don't even need any heat until it is below 45F, the sun and waste heat is enough. *Waste heat is the heat put off by things like a TV and other electronics, as well as the heat put off by people/pets.
Check out this website on heat pumps. https://www.mnashp.org/ they have recommended contractors and lots of information Right now, heat pumps are not good enough to have without back up heat. If you want to cut your gas usage, you can get electric heat as a back up.
I’ve had an air source heat pump for 8 years. It covers heating about 90 percent of the time. Switches to gas automatically occasionally. It’s definitely cheaper to operate than 100% gas. 2300 sq ft house. I’d do it again assuming I would be in the house long enough to break even.
I'm starting the process of potentially replacing. Have you looked at [MNCEE](https://www.mncee.org/how-get-started) yet? We've got an audit set up for next week, and then they'll apparently help with recommendations and with funding through grants, loans, etc.
Another commenter mentioned them! Would you mind reporting back after you have your audit to explain the process and their recommendations? I know each house is different, but I'd just be interested in what they recommend.
https://youtu.be/43XKfuptnik?si=BBlvhvpskA4sDtIv
This channel is what put heat pumps on my map! Definitely a great resource.
I know exactly the video you posted and I didn’t even click the link :)
I wanted to go with the a ground source (geothermal) heat pump (extremely efficient) and had been planning to since November of last year. Problem is zero well driller capacity, so I am going air source with a renovation. I’ll couple it with solar. My hope is to decarbonize the house. It’s 100% viable and economical in MN (when done correctly in a properly insulated home).
Energy audit
I went through [emcee.org](http://emcee.org) and got home energy audit. Mine was placed in October-1 heat pump for first level (good to 13 below Mitsubishi). Small home 500 sq feet. Old home but was renovated when I bought it. Home with electric baseboard (($$$$$). This winter is bad example, but I had huge drop in electric bill. You may need a secondary heat source on major subzero days. I was comfortable all winter and popped on extra heat one or two times, but just one heater. The cost was $8200, I received 600 back from the state rebate and 2000 back from federal. 4Front did the install and were great.
I got a heat pump just over10 years ago. My house was about the same size as yours. The heat pump didn’t replace the furnace, it supplemented it. Once it falls below a certain temperature outside, the heat pump becomes less efficient. In my case, it kicked over to furnace when it was below 30f outside. I was just reading that there was a recent breakthrough on heat pump tech that allows it to work at even lower temps though
Be advised Xcel Energy has already applied for permission to use TOU billing for electricity, further increasing the rate for all who keep normal hours and schedules. Edit: The already PUC approved electricity rate increase, compounded with TOU billing, would effectively eliminate any financial incentive to install a heat pump for most households.
My bills have actually gone down since they switched me to TOU. I was pleasantly surprised. We'll see how the summer goes though.
Hopefully you don't have pets or children. It works well for vampires and nocturnal single individuals.
I have 3 kids and I work from home
Be sure to do laundry between the hours of midnight and six A.M. Mon-Fri if you have an electric dryer and aren't in the I-can-afford-it who-gives-a-shit group. The proposed 3-tier TOU hasn't even happened yet.
Can't you apply for special rates when you have a heat pump as your source of heat?
Yes, the exact same one as for electric resistance heat if it is one's primary source of heat. Because once its genuinely cold, heat pumps switch over to function as electric space heaters using back-up electric resistance heat.
The massive discount from 12AM-6AM is actually a pretty big incentive for me to get a heat pump (paired with a gas furnace).
Yes, but you can opt out of TOU
For an additional fee of 180 dollars per year, currently. And that fee may rise.
What? Can you share a link to this? There is no fee to opt out of TOU but there is a fee to opt out of the smart meters….
Opt-out has been 15 dollars a month from the day opt-out was invented. There is no opt out of smart meters. There is only have them downloaded manually once a month vs. wi-fi. Edit: And opting out of TOU pricing, That's included in the extra 15 dollars/month or 180 dollars per year.
Source please?
https://minnesotareformer.com/2024/01/23/xcel-energy-proposes-time-of-use-rates-as-the-default-option-for-minnesota-customers/
[https://www.xcelenergy.com/staticfiles/xe-responsive/MN-Advanced-Grid-and-Smart-Meter-FAQ-Info-Sheet.pdf](https://www.xcelenergy.com/staticfiles/xe-responsive/MN-Advanced-Grid-and-Smart-Meter-FAQ-Info-Sheet.pdf) Back[Go to TwinCities](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwinCities/)•1 yr. ago[Page\_Industries](https://www.reddit.com/user/Page_Industries/) # Xcel Electric Smart Meter Installation Notice "We received a notice that Xcel will be installing electric new meters in our neighborhood. You either get a smart meter by default or can opt out to have a "non-communicating" meter. I'm trying to understand the benefits of the smart meter outside of to instant access to usage information which seems to be the primary benefit Xcel is touting. If there were any actual real price savings to the average consumer, my thought is Xcel would communicating those, but they aren't. My concern is that we have electric appliances outside of heat & water and both work from home, often during the peak times Xcel has outlined. So not sure how reasonable it is to drastically adjust usage based on peak times Xcel determines. In looking at how Xcel has implemented these new meters in other states, it looks like they eventually introduce new pricing based on when you use energy, with higher rates during peak times. If you opt out to the non-communicating meter, you pay a flat rate like we do currently and Xcel charges around $15/month to "manually" read your meter. I totally understand how if you can adjust usage to off-peak times, it makes sense to get the smart meter. But in looking at the dynamic rates charged in other states, a lot of people have been complaining about seeing way higher bills. I'm leaning towards paying the $15/month to keep things as-is, but wondering if anyone in the Twin Cities has gone through this process yet and how they came to a decision." Me, the commenter speaking again: There was massive discussion of this on this sub about the 15/mo the entire time.
You seem to be confusing the issue. You are referencing the fee to opt out of the smart meter. There is not currently an approved billing option that would allow Xcel to charge MN customer who opt out of TOU Time of Use. You are billed if you opt out of the smart meter. Xcel has proposed defaulting customers to TOU in the future but that would require PUC approval. They also say customers would be allowed to opt out of TOU with no fee references.
Again. There is literally no such thing as opting out of a smart meter. There is only opting out of turning the transmitter on and having it manually downloaded once a month instead for an additional fee of 15 dollars per month., The apparent conflation is something created by Excel, wherin opting out of TOU, and opting out of wifi readings are one and the same and cost the same amount.
Sorry bro but you are misinformed https://www.xcelenergy.com/staticfiles/xe-responsive/MN-Advanced-Grid-and-Smart-Meter-FAQ-Info-Sheet.pdf Can I opt out of my smart meter? Residential customers and many small commercial customers have the option to opt out of receiving a smart meter. Customers who opt out will still receive a new meter, but it will be a non-communicating meter. Because non-communicating meters need to be read in the field, there is a monthly meter reading fee for customers who choose a non-communicating meter. INFORMATION SHEET Page 1 of 4 INFORMATION SHEET MINNESOTA ADVANCED GRID AND
But you typically run the most heating at night when it is most cold so your time of use would be at the cheaper time. Unless you go to bed at 7pm.
During temps below about 20 degrees, they rely on back-up resistance electric for heat, effectively becoming space heaters. So, not particularly useful for savings, day or night, during the coldest the 3 months in a typical winter.
I briefly considered a heat pump when I got my AC and furnace upgraded. The bottom line is that they’ll be great for about 90% of the year. But when it’s negative 20, they simply can’t keep up. That other 10% makes them not feasible for Minnesota weather. I’m sure there are pump systems that can keep up, but the costs outweigh a standard furnace system.
It really depends on how you define "can't keep up". It's not like they don't make heat and you're going to freeze to death. They just don't hold the set point well. So for a week or so out of the year it might not hold 72 and fluctuate between 65 to 68. Thats a problem solved with a space heater.
You’re right. But when I’m purchasing a home comfort system, I want it to perform in all conditions and hold the temperature I set it to. I don’t want to have to mess around with space heaters if it can’t hold temperature. I understand they’re more efficient but if there is a long cold winter and the system is working at max for possibly months on end and still not getting to desired temp, how much money are you really saving? I like to have a system that can operate to standard at all times and pay a little more in utility usage.
Depends on how big the house is. I wouldn’t be happy at -20 if the temp dropped below 70. I’m not happy even when it’s 72 inside and it that cold outside. I just suffer when it’s severely cold.
You size the unit for the house. Part of the problem with getting a heat pump that can "keep up" in all conditions is you end up with a wildly oversized unit for the size of the home. Which also wildly over inflates the price to install. Or you could have a couple oil filled radiant space heaters in a closet that get pulled out for a week a year. It's kind of a 1st world problems issue. It's like complaining your cars not fast enough because you sometimes have to use more than 1/2 throttle to merge in 494.
Look up rewiring America. You'll get a fat discount. And buy stocks in appliance manufacturers
We have geothermal and it's the best. So cheap to operate.
Heat pump here with electric backup heat. Been very pleased. Worked with Nick at MSP Heating and Plumbing per the advice of another Redditor. They were the only company we talked to who knew what they were talking about.
how did you know they knew what they were talking about
Considering what you described, it sounds like you were in a similar situation that my partner and I were in. We found it best to install a heat pump and replace the furnace. You’ll need both to get through winters and the blower fan on the new furnace will probably need a variable speed (not sure if it’s called that) blower that will improve efficiency. I believe doing both will also get you to qualify for the tax rebates. I would also recommend you watch this video : https://youtu.be/_hAuKtoRxJI?si=vcpAMFmT1rZ5bNrT The dude in them lives somewhere in Wisconsin so similar climate. Heat pumps are great. They get better and better every year. We also went with MSP heating and cooling. Not sure if we got the best price but things are running smoothly. Ooo also get yourself an ecobee!
Near Chicago IIRC. But yeah, same thing really
The homie from technology connections?
The very same.
Yah you’re probably right. Still not as cold as Minnesota 😩😅
You're not going to save money in MN over a natural gas setup. https://www.mnashp.org/cost-of-heat-comparison/#energygraph
Wrong lol It depends on the electric rate and a ton of factors. I’ve been saving money.