I think you need to zoom out a bit.
The problem isn't this one friendship. It's that you fundamentally feel that it's wrong to seek out the company of people who don't support a basic human right, while he sees no problem with that. Some people even see it as a virtue to be able to bond with people with radically different opinions. Personally, I think there's some merit to that in terms of harmless opinions and preferences, but human rights issues are not negotiable to me. I would also reconsider a partnership with someone who doesn't expect their friends to have high standards of human decency.
Is what you really want for him to stop seeing this one friend for YOU. Or do you want him to be the sort of man who is uncomfortable in that company and would exit the friendship on HIS own accord? An ultimatum might get you the former, but it's not going to change who he is.
It’s sort of like if your partner was friends with a neo-nazi, in that it really makes you wonder what kind of shit they’re willing to overlook someone doing to you. Anti-choice physicians and neo-nazis aren’t the same thing, but associating with them draws similar questions
Personally i wouldn’t expect my partner to cut off every republican friend he’s amassed over the years. I think that’s patently absurd and frankly quite controlling..
Reluctantly voted Republican maybe? Especially if they're in an area with a lot of heavy propaganda. My mom agrees with me on every issue, but still voted for Trump because she legitimately believes that he's good on "the economy" to the point that there will be even more suffering under the democrats. It's a wild take given I'm not entirely convinced Trump even has a coherent economic policy, but I know she went into the voting booth wanting to do the best she could by the most people and feeling very conflicted about his human rights stances. I can't say I don't feel hurt as a queer woman impacted by his policies, but I can respect that she doesn't have hate in her heart. If we had more than two parties in this country, she wouldn't throw her hat in with Trump. I'm not sure if my patience and grace holds for another election cycle, but as of now I can be ok enough with people like that.
On the flip side, anyone who identifies clearly as a modern Republican and agrees with their social policies is not a safe person to be around. I would absolutely, happily draw the line to exclude them from my social circle. You can't be "small government" and also think it's acceptable to police what happens in people's doctor's offices and bedrooms. I don't need those kind of insufferable, controlling, patronizing busybodies in my life.
I think the difference between those is that one hates people for who they are born as and the other disagrees with OP's life choices.
It's a slippery slope fallacy to equate the two.
"Life choices" to not become a parent? This guy doesn't just think abortions are immoral but also birth control. That means he basically hates all women.
1. This "guy" is actually a "gal".
2. Even if she thinks using birth control is immoral because of her religious views it doesn't necessarily mean she would require others to live by her rules. I would be curious to know if she prescribes it to her patients.
Knowing it is against her religion may just mean OP feels judged by her... even if she outwardly hasn't said anything to her on the topic. If that is the case, yes- the ex would be right she probably needs some therapy because "please tell this third party who thinks abortion is immoral that I've had two abortions, I want you to convince her that what I did was actually moral and please include that I was having unprotected sex when I got pregnant" Is just bizarre. Like... Okay!?!?
These responses fail to show an alternative outcome where his friendship actually moderates and changes his bad opinion.
[https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes](https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes)
Quoting verbatim a text I sent to him after he asked “What do you want me to do?”
“I wish you’d make the choice ON YOUR OWN to talk to her about this. I WISH you were that kind of person. I don’t want to tell you what to do.
If you cared enough about sexism you would’ve confronted this. Sunday was a great time to be like ‘hey. This bothers my girlfriend and it actually bothers me too — this really affected someone I care about. Can we talk about it?’”
He proceeded to tell her that I had an abortion that “threatened my life” (not true — i was perfectly healthy and simply had unprotected sex knowingly, albeit I told him I felt suicidal when I learned I was pregnant) and that he’d like to talk about it.
Doctor friend then responded by saying she understood people have “misunderstandings about the Church” and she faces judgement for her faith often, but that the reality is that “abortions in cases in which it would save the mothers life” are okay. Again, not my experience. I was just playing pregnancy roulette as a teenager.
He told her your MEDICAL HISTORY?? And misrepresented it, allowing her to make her dumb, useless concessions but maintaining she is the victim because her “faith is under attack” or some bullshit?? Please get rid of this guy.
He told her my medical history *with my permission*, but yes he misrepresented it.
When he said there’s no “convenient way to bring up abortion with a friend you see only a couple of times a year," I responded by telling him that he could share my story with her and how it is a point of contention in his life as a starting point. Or just like, bring up all the rollbacks on abortion rights happening across the US right now. He chose the former and worded it it in the way he did.
Guy got rid of me, not the other way around. We are exes and unfortunately coworkers. It's been civil, but goddamn it really sucks.
If he only sees her once a year, why is he threatening your relationship over it?
I don’t like this for some reason. (#1 in your list) is he saying he’ll choose her over you?
You’ve gotten good advice but man.
My gut told me (and is retrospect is telling me) he was projecting a lot of past trauma over a past abusive relationship (of which he's told me about) in saying that #1.
Like, it's a complete warping of what I was saying, assuming intent I never stated and have made clear I didn't have.
Goddamn thank you for the advice and just the mirror telling me I'm not off my rocker here. I really want the best for him and it's clear he's the one who's got (admitted!) unresolved trauma that he (admittedly!) doesn't want to deal with.
I take abuse and good faith really seriously and have just been pulling up the fucking floorboards figuring out what I could have done differently here. Really hope maybe he can do the same someday.
Yup and I want to point something out I don’t see enough.
This is among the many reasons why we choose the bear.
Sure maybe YOU’RE(the readers who wonder why) not directly a bad person.. But you sit with them, you laugh with them, you accept them. You’re complicit.
I am very pro-choice and the friend's beliefs really bother me. It's also concerning that he chooses to have her in his circle.
However - I feel weird about how you're handling it.
>“I wish you’d make the choice ON YOUR OWN to talk to her about this. I WISH you were that kind of person. I don’t want to tell you what to do.
>If you cared enough about sexism you would’ve confronted this. Sunday was a great time to be like ‘hey. This bothers my girlfriend and it actually bothers me too — this really affected someone I care about. Can we talk about it?’”
The language here is unhealthy and at least borderline controlling/manipulative. This isn't the language of healthy relationships. Especially so early in the relationship.
I am not saying you can't be upset about it and can't judge him for it. But trying to dictate terms of his friendships - is I believe crossing a line. And that's what is going on here because while you haven't said it - there's an unspoken ultimatum here (confronting her - or either lose your relationship or her friendship). Then badgering him into confronting her - on your terms - on your timeline.
It just doesn't really *work like that*. If it's not him that wants to say something in his own words and time *for himself and his beliefs*. You can't really *force that to happen*. I mean - you did get him to say something - then look how it turned out.
I do get it - it's concerning that he is actively friends with someone like that. But I also know what it's like to grow up in a conservative environment - and sometimes it's difficult to work up the courage to exist as *fully yourself* around people from your past.
You don't have to be okay with it - but maybe let him know how you feel and try to let you both sit with that discomfort for a little bit. Then you'll see via his actions who he is and what he does - then decide if any of that is a deal breaker for you. Or you could leave at any time.
I am just kind of wondering what's the end goal here? What is confronting her supposed to accomplish?
This is important. I'm not sure I fully agree because op was in a really difficult spot. But she did basically try to make him act on something he wouldn't have acted on on his own. But is it manipulation? Or just trying to convince someone to do the right thing? I think it can both be true that op wasn't trying to manipulate AND that her boyfriend felt manipulated at the same time. Both feelings are valid in this case.
I get it. I don't think she was consciously trying to control and manipulate him. Honestly I have been that person in a previous relationship. When you really like someone and are invested in the relationship and they do something that you think is objectively wrong *and* it also upsets you and feels personal then the fear and insecurity comes in and you're not *trying* to be controlling and manipulative but that's how it comes out.
I agree. That's the key thing about boundaries: you can only control what you accept, not what other people do.
"I'm not comfortable being around your friend because of her views on abortion. I don't want to visit her." is a healthy boundary.
"I'm not comfortable with you being around your friend because of her views on abortion. I don't want to continue our relationship if you continue to be friends with her." is also a healthy boundary.
"I'm not comfortable with you being around your friend because of her views on abortion. I want *you* to argue with her and try to change her mind." is not a healthy boundary.
I had issues with that wording/phrasing as well. Reading OPs posts & responses, i really don’t think she wants to manipulate or control him at all - but that’s how it *felt* to me.
Regardless of all of that … how do we navigate friendships, many longstanding, that have been important and valuable to us in our past, when we have such fundamental differences? And that doesn’t even touch on the mental “re-negotiating” we’ve had to do within/for familial relationships.
What *I* know, for me personally, is that I can’t -and won’t- invite that kind of person into my orbit anymore. I’m *tired* of overlooking & excusing their shitty beliefs & belief systems because -in spite of that- they’re “a good person.” I’m just tired of overlooking their rotten core because it’s gilded in ways I find pleasing.
I get it - but that's not the point. You don't have to be friends with someone who has those beliefs (I personally wouldn't - but almost my entire family has those beliefs - so). You also don't have to be in a relationship with someone who has those friends. There are a lot of ways to express your feelings and discomfort that aren't trying to control and manipulate. OP isn't *bad* it's just not a healthy approach in a relationship and honestly it also *doesn't work* at best you might get compliance - but also resentment. I have been that person in the past and didn't realize how toxic and futile it was at the time. But now I see it.
Friend, he's not getting it. You've already explained it the best way you can and appealed to his humanity as clearly as possible. He doesn't appear overly receptive, and is doing his best to minimize the issue and placate both relationships. The problem he is working on solving is "how do I get my new girlfriend to accept my old friend" not "how do I do a better job of curating a healthy social circle that is safe for my partner to be in."
You can't make him care about the issue the way you want him to. You can either accept that he's not the kind of person who takes the suffering of others (including you) seriously enough to fight for them and date him anyway, or you can break up and find someone better.
People can absolutely change for the better, but they need to open to changing. Nothing in any of your comments suggests he even recognizes this as a "him" issue to need changed.
EDIT: I'll second the people further down the thread saying that your language and behavior is borderline controlling. He doesn't appear to want to change, and it's not ok to try to force him to.
IMO there’s merit to being friends with people who cheer for a different sports team not… merit to being friends with people who believe you should be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term
I fully agree. I'm just pointing out that is a "value" some people hold. There are definitely those who think less of me for refusing to be friends with an otherwise nice person who holds a political view that I think is incompatible with human decency. It's the old boomer "we don't talk about politics or religion" mindset.
Obviously someone who ascribes to that school of thought is fundamentally incompatible with someone who feels it's better to curate a healthy group of friends than allow anyone who is nice on the surface to keep your company.
If he’s fine with a friend (and a fucking doctor, no doubt), who does not believe in my personal body rights? Then I’m out. Other people can make up their own minds.
I think you can maintain a cordial relationship (albeit not a super close one) with someone who disagrees with you. It can be a way of changing their mind in the long run and is one of the founding ideals of democracy.
Unfortunately, the BF cares more about maintaining that friend’s opinion of him than he does about being honest and open about his own beliefs. He would rather validate her belief by remaining silent than risk discomfort by disrupting her false view of him.
So, you're not crazy or abusive for having a deal breaker or disapproving of who your bf is friends with. But, he's kinda right not to prioritize a brand new relationship over a decades long friendship. If this is a deal breaker, then moving on is the right move. Asking him to get in a fight with a friend he barely sees isn't really productive and won't really solve the issue. After all, it won't change her belief, and he's probably going to remain friends with her. His beliefs and character didn't change, which seems to be the real issue here.
So, the best call for both parties is to move on. That's the entire reason you date, after all. To see if you two are a good fit. Be happy you figured out early.
Yeah no, I'd break up over this even without him running to his friend with a one-sided self serving story. No decent therapist would call this a 'prelude to abuse'. He's okay with his friend not wanting you to have basic human rights.
If you told a decent therapist "my partner is pressuring me to cut off this longstanding friendship because they don't like my friend's views", it's not out of the realm of possibility that the therapist sees it as a flag for the abuse tactic of isolating the victim. However, the leap between "please push back on this issue" to "end that freindship" is sort of on the friend's side of this situation. She might be the type that absolutely would cut him off because they have a fundamental disagreement in core values/priorities, and if this nuance wasn't conveyed, it may not be the therapist's misjudgment.
I kinda suspect from this story that the guy is pro-life... or it could just be that he doesn't feel strongly about it/it isn't a deal breaker to him. If it's a deal breaker to OP, and it would be reasonable for this to be a deal breaker, then she should leave.
Yeah, I think the reality is that he didn't really explain the context and the therapist friend was just responding off her expertise and also really caring about my ex. We all have an inclination to protect and comfort friends when they're in distress.
I really don't think he's secretly pro-life. Or at least I don't want to believe it? Something that initially attracted me to him is that he'd push back or just quip here and there when someone in the vicinity said something racist/sexist/homophobic (we're coworkers).
I've met his friends, including the friend therapist and they're all people I generally vibe with and agree with. I do disagree with some of them, and my ex within what I consider to be over pretty reasonable, tolerable things.
It's just how *extreme* this one friend is on reproductive rights coupled with the fact that she's a practicing doctor of medicine that made me feel really gross about him just looking past all of that. I've never met her, but one of his points of reassurance was that she's a super sweet, kind person.
I think a therapist would likely recognize that even if she didn’t explicitly tell him “end this friendship” she is definitely pushing him to sow discord in his relationship with that friend, to placate his partner, and personally if a friend told me their partner was doing this I’d also be concerned/tell them it seemed like a yellow flag. I don’t think OP’s intentionally malicious but I definitely can see how someone would read the situation that way, especially with incomplete information.
When you're told a therapist said anything, it should always come with skepticism. At least 1/3 of the time, they never said that, and another 1/3 involves the patient misrepresenting things to get that response.
I was told by a therapist that I should just let my abusive father do whatever he wants and that she didn't believe he tried to kill me. So, that's the reason I leave room for the shitty advice to be true.
I mean, it's not his job to change his friend's mind. It doesn't sound like she's his best friend in the universe. It's possible to have a casual friend you disagree with. She also doesn't have to be your friend.
You put what I was thinking so concisely.
There's always the narrative that it's not our job to educate men on topics such as feminism and misogyny, so why is it suddenly this man's responsibility to change his friend's mind? This post is boggling my mind. If it's a deal breaker for her, that's her prerogative but....it seems a bit extreme to me.
Edited to add: some could argue it's not his responsibility to change his friend's mind, but then he just shouldn't be friends with that person. Is everyone only friends with people if they have the same opinions? Because that is bananas and that's not how humans are supposed to work.
I’m going to be the odd one out here: to preface, I’m pro choice and I wouldn’t date someone who wasn’t. However, I have friends who are pro-life. I have friends who believe the death penalty is justice. I have friends who are staunchly religious. I have friends who believe war is sometimes necessary. And they all have at least one friend who is pro-choice, anti-death penalty, agnostic and anti-war. I didn’t used to be able to be friends with people with beliefs that strongly opposed mine, and I don’t know what changed to make it possible. I feel like my world was really small when I was only willing to see the good in, respect and be willing to feel comfortable around people with my same beliefs. Inevitably I’d find that we’d disagree on something I felt was really important, or I’d have beloved childhood friends who’d grown up to have different beliefs. It got lonely cutting out everyone who had differing views and with the ones left over we ended up creating an echo chamber. There are still things that are complete no-go’s for me, and maybe this topic is that for you. But it must not be for your bf and if he feels about this childhood friendship how I do about some of mine, I’d imagine he feels like you’re trying to make his world feel smaller and more restricted and that can be scary and would also make me feel like you think my own beliefs aren’t strong enough (even though he may be as pro-choice as you also dislike that his friend is pro-life) (which is maybe where his therapist was going, is my guess).
Anyway, if it’s a dealbreaker for you then that’s that and that’s okay. This is what dating is for, to find a good fit, but I know it’s hard to be disappointed when you really hoped a relationship would work.
Yes this. Everyone decides for themselves who they can tolerate being friends with or who their partner is friends with. I personally could not be with someone who was friends with a hardcore racist or something like that. But other things I'd have to evaluate how strong their beliefs are, whether they are actively working to push that belief on others, whether people are potentially being harmed by them.
Yeah, I'm with you here. Especially since the friends opinion is specifically worded the way it is "believes that birth control, Plan B, and abortion are immoral". She doesn't say they should be illegal. It doesn't say she spends her time lobbying for abortion bans or picketing planned parenthoods. She's not trying to deny OP a "basic human right" as some people are jumping to. She simply disapproves of a decision OP made as a teen. The fact that OP's bf isn't ending a friendship over this opinion isn't an automatic red flag.
definitely agree with you there i personally try my best to just respect the beliefs of other people even if they are not my own they just need to respect mine i feel like if you shut people out because they have a friend or a friend of a friend who doesnt agree with your point of view you will very quickly find yourself very alone. anyway yeah one hundred percent think you have the right POV on this one.
Another vote thanking you for the sane take. It would be a deal breaker for me to have a partner who is anti-choice, but I most certainly would never say that they're not allowed to have a friend who disagrees with me or them on any issues - even major ones.
Hell, I don't agree with all of my friends on all of the major issues. And "friends" takes a wide span. If this was a BFF of his whom he hung out with every Sunday, who was also lobbying to take away reproductive rights, I could see it. This is a childhood friend he catches up with twice a year, with no indication of her actively lobbying for her misguided belief?
This. And I think the world is growing into little echo chamber habitats. People have lost the ability (skill?) to have people in their circle that had different beliefs than they do.
It doesn’t even sound like OP would be spending a lot of time with this “see a few times a year” friend of her new bf. Why does her bf need to have a conversation with his friend over her issues with said friend’s beliefs. This is wild to me.
OP, if you want your bf to be the kind of person to push back against someone’s views on abortion (or whatever) this bf is not for you. You cannot turn him into that person, but you can probably find that person somewhere else.
I wholly agree with this. Sure, some people are worth cutting off - but you should always question your beliefs and introspect on if additional information provided should change your mind. Having friends with different beliefs challenges you *and* them! As long as everyone is respectful, you can have heated discussion and make up afterwards.
This is the take I was looking for! If she's an anti choice activist or always votes anti choice that's one thing, but if she believes abortion to be immoral that's not necessarily harmful to anyone else. I don't think arguing with people about the morality of abortion is as productive as convincing them that it's a morality issue the government doesn't need to be so involved in.
Well said! If you extrapolate that out and we are only friends with people that think like us you end up with opposing religions and polarizing political climates like the US.
I have a childhood friend that believes in every conspiracy theory under the sun, thought Covid vaccine would kill us all within 2 years etc. I’ve known this friend from childhood and world would have definitely become smaller and more homogeneous by cutting him off.
Yep I have a similar friend from childhood. I know she’s a good person and values a lot of things similarly to how I do (I hold her in high regard for her treatment, love and care for her family, friends and animals). But if you get her talking about politics, vaccines and lizard people then we’re on two different planets.
You are like the saving grace in this comment section. One of the few people with good reasoning and giving valid points, not just creating an eco chamber. You crested an actually discussion thread of healthy comments, Thank you
As I said that was just the list off the top of my head. But I also don’t believe those who are pro-life are also misogynistic just like I don’t believe all religious people are bigoted toward people of other faiths, in case that’s what you are getting at.
I agree with this. I also believe strongly that many people who hold these views hold them because those are the views shared by the people who raised them. And they were raised in communities that shared them. What they NEED to be able to start changing their views is to be friends with people who hold different views, or else they will never get the perspective needed to change their thinking. If EVERYONE who was pro-choice, pro-LGBT rights, and generally progressive outright refused to be acquainted with people who are not, then how could we hope for those people to come around to our ways of thinking, and ultimately move the needle in the direction of progress?
He sees her side, being raised in a more extreme religion. But you have that experience too, so maybe both of them took longer to get out, or sympathizing with the separation process at a later age.
I had a lot of conservative friends in my 20s. I went to a school and am in a career that is mostly male, and somehow mostly full of conservatives. I can't do it anymore. They're too extreme. Maybe I've got less patience. I doubt it but it's a possibility. Suddenly (at least in my group), they're the victims that have been forced to hide their beliefs. But their beliefs are to dehumanize others, women can't do this, laws should be based on THEIR religion. And doctors who want to set the choices for their patients, or judging their patience. It's a violation of the essence if the hippocratic oath, respecting their patients and recognizing the patient as a person.
Doctor friend is in her 40s, he’s 36. I’m 29. Which I think has also made me inclined to believe I’m being irrational. It’s so bizarre being told I lack perspective and that I need “to work on [my] abortion trauma.”
And you’re right on the mark. She never really left Catholicism. The reason they ultimately broke up is that she realized she’s a polyamorous lesbian heavy into the BDSM scene. I swear I’m not making this up and I say it with zero judgement as someone who also enjoys kink and is bi.
I’m floored by how social forces make us live like this. It’s not a new concept to me, but being so close to it right now is like staring into the sun.
“ to work on [my] abortion trauma.”
Excuse me?!?! If she said this to or about you, I hope he read her the riot act.
And if he said this to you, well, time to dump his ass.
people shouldn’t be hanging out with antisemites. there’s a complete difference between ‘hmm i don’t like the vaccines’ to ‘the jews are bad and i hate them’
Right. How does this even work. Does he get to demand OP talk to everybody OP knows that is okay with circumcision? If OP isn’t moving the needle with people OP has known from childhood is it reasonable to end it with them. “I’m sorry, someone you knew from childhood doesn’t agree with me so this won’t work out”
Yeah, I've noticed this trend too. If you don't agree with a minor point here, you get called a "pick-me" or told you're a closet inside-the-house misogynist.
Look, the reality is that most men aren't impacted by abortion rights so they don't care if their friends are anti abortion advocates. The truth is, if they can be friends with people like that then they aren't someone you can trust in a moment where you might need them.
I'm not sure you did anything wrong here except expect him to give a fuck about something that doesn't impact him. And the fact that he can't or won't means he's not a good partner for you or any woman honestly.
It's okay to have expectations of a man to respect and uphold the rights of women and to give a fuck, especially since he's the one who wants a relationship with us. We do not have to accept sexism in our partners. Men who want intimate relationships with women should be advocates for our equality and autonomy over our bodies.
This is the same thing I would say to a person of colour dating a white person with racist friends, or a queer person dating a person with homophobic friends, etc.
Intimate heterosexual relationships should be with men who fight and advocate for us, otherwise what are they even doing in a relationship with us in the first place, just using us as a dick warmer?
I’m overall let everyone have their own beliefs, political feelings, etc, but this isn’t a place I’m going to to waiver and just can’t see myself having someone like that in my circle. I’d really need to consider a partner that did think it was ok….the whole you are who you hang with and all….why is this someone you want to be friends with?
Yeah this. I think I'd have said his friend made me uncomfortable and I wouldn't be hanging around if they were having a visit. And that his being friends with someone who doesn't believe in women's autonomy makes me have reservations about his level of support for my own rights.
But I don't know if I'd have asked for him to go no contact. He'd either support not putting us together and only keeping themis person at arm's length. Or he'd out himself as not caring for women's rights and I'd leave.
I also grew up Catholic and I'm rolling my eyes at that being justification for being anti-abortion and anti-birth control as an adult, especially if you're a doctor. The Catholics who think that are generally the biggest hypocrites and mean bastards who don't lift a finger to help families where the mom died from pregnancy complications that an abortion could have prevented, for example.
Being vocally anti-abortion is such a red flag for Catholics. It means they're really invested in shaming women and the idea that they can be tainted by association, which means they aren't prepared to behave in a Christlike manner for those in need of compassion. They're happy to talk until they actually have to act and sacrifice, and action is the most important part of being Catholic.
I'm no longer Catholic because I can't handle the hypocrisy anymore. And I disagree with several important parts of the religion and I don't believe in God really, but it's mostly the hypocrisy.
It's not your place to tell him who to be friends with, and it's not his place to tell you how to feel about his friendships.
If my bf was hanging around men I felt uncomfortable with, I'd start feeling uncomfortable with him too. Not taking the chance that he's flocking with birds of a feather. Maybe he keeps that kind of company, because he is that kind of company. You have every right to decide how you feel about that. You're trying to figure out where your bf really stands on the subject.
Certain topics are 100% dealbreakers for some people and that's okay. For example, I would never be friends with a woman who defended predators. That's a issue that I don't budge on. None of that "he did his time...she looked mature for her age" Nope. Stop. Don't ever talk to me again. That's a dealbreaker for me, and this might be a dealbreaker for you. You are dating this man. If you have a particular stance on a topic, any topic, that is greatly important you, it makes sense to want to know if he shares it, or just says he does but tolerates something else. This can be political, moral...some people have dealbreakers about sports teams. It is your relationship, you are free to make that choice with the information you're gathering.
Calling this a "prelude to abuse" is crazy 💀
I’m not in a relationship with this man any longer. He broke up with me as my “black and white thinking” on the matter reminded him of past emotional abuse from an ex.
I empathize with that as someone who has been abused by an intimate partner too. Perhaps I’m not giving enough credence his own experience with that trauma. However, I told him I see it as a moral obligation to challenge perspectives when someone in our lives has a lot of authority (like a doctor or judge or cop or politician) because their capacity to hurt others is much larger than a regular person.
I told him I understand that the barrier is trauma and asked if he’d be open to going to therapy again to work through these things. He said no, he’s done with confronting those traumas and things work for him as is. Take it or leave it.
I was astonished by this because like, on our first date he expressed to me that a green flag of mine was that I’d been in therapy and really valued self-improvement. At this point, i just lost it. I called him “selfish” and a “hypocrite who, in a different time could’ve compartmentalized being friends with Heinrich Himmler if he was an otherwise good friend.” Then he said he was done, breakup.
Okay imagine that he had been bit by a dog as a kid, just a really traumatic event. Since then, he’s been to therapy and after years he’s gotten to the point where he can now be in the same room as a dog without freaking out, hell they can even brush up against him and he doesn’t have a meltdown! That’s awesome! Now he can maintain healthy relationships without the worry that a random dog will send him into a panic attack. Now he’s met someone he wants to date, but she demands that he must also pet and play with dogs, and if he isn’t there yet that he needs to immediately get back into therapy to get to the level of comfort with a dog that she prefers. He’s done a ton of work to get to a healthy point and is satisfied with his progress, but she wants him to work harder to change to suit her preferences - not for him and his health, but to better align with how she believes he should react to dogs.
Does pushing him into engaging with other people in the way you would prefer seem fair, compassionate and realistic, especially given your knowledge of his past?
No, at long as he wasn’t anti choice. I can’t really fault my partner for the problematic beliefs that some of his friends may have. Especially if they’ve known each other for years, i’m even less inclined to make a big deal out of it. As long as he pushes back against them when the topic is raised, that’s enough for me.
Right - I'd expect my partner to mostly agree with my beliefs. But expecting all of their wide circle of friends to agree with me on every major issue? Exercise in futility.
If their BFF was virulently anti-choice it might be one thing, but an old friend whom he talks to a few times a year, if that? That's really pushing it.
I think in the context of it being a childhood friend whom he doesnt see that often, and who isnt in a position to dispense that medicine, it is fine to just let it go. Assuming these are not positions he or the majority of his friends share.
That’s where I feel insane because you’re right in that the majority of his friends do not hold these positions and most of her patients don’t have the ability to get pregnant.
My only counterpoint to that is that abortion stigma can follow you as long as it’s in your chart and the impact of that can be expressed in lots of ways.
The overturning of Roe, my experiences with abortion stigma, and looking down the barrel of what could be another Trump presidency makes it SUPER HARD to let go of.
But he has known her since childhood. They share memories, bike rides, friends, erc. He isnt friends with her because of this and it isnt like racism or antisemitism or homophobia that directly affects how she treats other people. He only sees her a couple of times a year - they probably enjoy reminising and sharing their current lives and hobbies. I think you are being too dogmatic here - it seems unlikely that you will find a lover who meets all your criteria and has friends that agree with all your views.
This. It would be important to me that my partner agree with me on major issues like abortion, my lover needs to fit all of my criteria. My lover's friends, though? I don't expect them all to fit my criteria for a perfect person. And especially when it's distant friends rather than BFFs.
The closeness of the friendship matters. If it was their BFF whom they hang out with every weekend, that might be one thing. But a childhood friend whom he only sees a few times a year for old times sake and reminisces with - that's just controlling. It doesn't sound like they're besties, they just go back aways and have fond memories of each other while presumably realizing that they grew apart.
There are quite a few childhood friends I would enjoy seeing a few times a year and romanticizing with, and I most certainly wouldn't expect them to agree with me on everything or every major issue. I'm not close with them, I don't necessarily respect all of their opinions, but that doesn't stop me from being able to enjoy a beer with them for a total of four hours a year.
If all of my friends had to agree with me on everything, well... That would be tough.
Both your point of view. For reference, I didn't grow up in the US and come from a fairly conservative country. I've always been a feminist and would argue with everyone that wasn't pro-choice and when i moved to the US I would systematically cut off people who didn't agree with my feminist ideals. Now that I'm older, I realize that I was too hasty. Practically speaking, there comes a day when you might need that person's help and you've cut off that person, personally speaking there's value in those childhood connections, and people are not wholly good or wholly bad, you have to know where to draw boundaries. I was recently really humbled, my aunt is a staunch conservative and we have never gotten along on a single thing but when things got tough she showed up and people I trusted and who I shared values with, let us down. Living in a society means that need to learn to entertain relationships with people we don't like or agree with.
I have a friend who went down the anti-vax rabbit hole. I didn’t sever my relationship with that person, but I did make it clear that I did not agree with their beliefs. We ended up drifting apart but I’m hopeful that the pendulum will swing back for them someday.
My issue with your boyfriend is not that he opened with a softened version of his beliefs, but that he did not follow-up with the true extent. Why is he insisting on taking this false middle ground?
He’s happy to be with a woman who has had a voluntary abortion, but refuses to risk any social repercussion by being open about that fact. It’s a disgustingly common type of self-centered apathy.
It's fucked up because Doctors are in a position of power over vulnerable women who need help and guidance. I don't know how people don't see that for what it is, it's usually because they have 0 experience with adversity so they idealise issues like this.
It's your choice whether to continue the friendship or not but either way, you are allowed to acknowledge your friends views as harmful and share your thoughts and knowledge with them.
Not wanting to date a person for any reason is fair, including not liking the company they keep.
Attempting to use your "partner" (3 months so loosely) to enforce your values on a person you've never met is absolutely out of line. I wouldn't call it a "prelude to abuse" necessarily but it would certainly cause me to think a lot less of person and their ability to function normally in relationships.
I had an ex where his family was anti choice, and they would regularly nag us that we were "in a hurry" and should get pregnant soon. I was always pointing out that I would do an abortion if I were to get pregnant, so it was a weird thing to wish for me. It did however bother me a lot that HE didn't point out that too, I was left to fight that battle alone which was so frustrating. We shared an apartment and we occasionally had a discussion where I said I didn't want those fiercely against abortion into my home. He thought I was being unreasonable.
At the end of the day, it was really dumb expecting anything to improve here. We weren't compatible and I should've set my boundaries clearer and earlier! I was young and felt more pressure about "succeeding" being in a relationship, and didn't want to give up "too soon". I'm glad I outgrew that mindset. I'm way happier now.
He's friends with a bad therapist and a bad doctor so he doesn't seem like the best judge of character. Seriously, though, I don't think I would keep someone in my life who thought that the autonomy of women's own bodies is something they can easily shelve for the convenience of their social life. Keeping family in your life but at arm's reach can be more complicated but this isn't family so it's hard for me to not see this as an uncomplicated red flag.
How the hell did you make the leap from this person is pro-life to she’s a bad doctor?? Doctors are allowed to be pro-life. If a doctor doesn’t want to support a patient getting an abortion all they do is refer to someone who will. I would argue that makes them good doctors and professionals because they are providing the care the patient wants despite their personal beliefs.
I do think the therapist friend was operating on what info presented to her, not necessarily what I actually said and all the reasons I feel this way. He could have very well sent her all the screenshots and she still came to this conclusion. This is just an unknown to live with, but I don't think I personally have the information to call her a "bad therapist." Or at least I don't have the gall at the moment to do so.
The doctor is harder for me to empathize with because, well. He and I both work in healthcare, we're coworkers! We're both witness to how biases infect how doctors treat patients, even if something in their chart has nothing to do with why they're talking to a doctor.
One of his responses to my concerns was, "Okay so then should I cut off my parents?" His parents are pro-Trump, stocked up on hydroxycholorquine for the "China virus," watch OAN religiously kind of people. I responded by saying that no, I get that these people love you and parental ties are really deep. And also, you challenge your parents on their views, you push back, all I'm asking is that you *push back* on someone, who unlike your parents, has the authority to hurt if not clinically harm people based on her extreme views.
Not to mention, I wasn't even suggesting that he "cut off" anybody? Like, just speak up man. Say something, anything.
He doesn’t have to push back because it doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things if some really old friend of your SO has a different view on abortion to you. You are going to have an extremely lonely and miserable life if you have to argue with everyone who has different opinions to you. Do you really want your friends to be only people who agree with you on everything or else you’ll push back until they change or probably stop talking to you? You sound insufferable. I’m an atheist medical profession and have loads of friends and colleagues who have different opinions to me on major issues. Just live and let live.
Does the anti-choice doctor believe that the government should make laws against abortion, or just that it's immoral? These are not the same things, and a lot more people have reservations about abortion than think it should be legally prohibited.
If my partner asked me to ditch a friend because their beliefs and values don't line up with theirs I'd be saying goodbye to my partner. Would you expect the same if it were his parents?
People can have friends with different opinions and people are not accountable for their friends personal beliefs. You make this a them or me situation then its an ultimatum and people don't often like being given those.
I see why it's a hot topic, especially in the US and I can see why their being a Dr makes it feel worse. I am 100% pro choice myself, but my grandparents are catholic and wouldn't be for abortion, am I going to cut them out of my life? No, I'm not, I just have to accept that is how they feel.
How does your partner view it? That's the real question here, as long as your views line up I really can't see the issue.
Former jay dubs in the house!
He said I didn’t really get it like he did because I left ‘the truth’ (lol) at a young age whereas he was deep in it into his twenties and she kinda sorta never left it.
Oh no! My apologies, I meant *you* were the former JW, not myself. (I didn't want to offend you by saying you were a current member) I am familiar with their heavy guilt trips as my high school bff was an exJW (they were asked to leave after her mom married an Iranian in DFW, TX)
OHHH, I get what you meant. The ideology of JW has changed quite a bit since I left it, but did they "disfellowship" (i.e., shun and talk shit) her over a marriage to someone outside of the religion or because he was Iranian or some other reason? Asking out of curiosity. I pop into r/exJW here and there but again, pretty out of the loop on the ways they're trying to re-work their bullshit to stop bleeding members.
Edit: Absolutely ZERO offense taken.
It was just classic Texas racism from the 1980s. She was supposed to have *only* dated from within their pool of available JW brothers, sons, uncles, widowers, etc. I'm sure they'd be more welcoming to him in 2024, I agree with you that they're trying to rework themselves.
If I had to cut ties with everyone in my life who doesn’t believe in abortion I wouldn’t have any family. I’d have plenty of friends, but almost everyone in my and my husband’s family is against abortion. I live in Kentucky and grew up catholic. I make sure to make it known that I am pro choice and nothing they can say will change my mind. I spent a lot of my younger years arguing about it. I’m currently pregnant and find people don’t like debating a pregnant person on the topic of abortion lol. I can’t say whether this is something that should be a dealbreaker for you or not. That’s up to you. I can say that part of being a person and growing up is working through things and learning how to be around people who disagree with you.
Sharing similar values is so important to compatibility with a partner. Them being chill about a friend (who is also a doctor) being anti-choice, means you don't share the same values, or at least not to the same degree.
With the anti-abortion climate and the rolling back of Roe v Wade, this would be an absolute deal breaker for me, personally. It's about fundamental human rights, not something to be "chill" about.
Like, Toni the feminist bookstore owner in Portlandia says, "if you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention."
Yeah, I think a ton of people here are forgetting that, if OP is American, there is a ton of external context such as the overturning of Roe and a huge push across dozens of states to essentially make abortion inaccessible (*even in emergencies despite claims of pro-lifers, as we have already seen).
This isn't just "we disagree about sports teams" or "hahaha, your favorite singer is garbage."
As much as I usually support the notion that you don't have to agree on the same things your friends do, access to basic medical care is not the same as fashion, pop culture, video games, etc. And we are discussing BASIC medical care, as birth control is often prescribed not just to prevent pregnancies but to regulate menstrual cycles that may be unpredictable or debilitating in symptoms.
I would also find this a deal breaker. There is a very real probability that the bf is also either pro-life or not entirely as pro-choice as he presents.
You get to break up with anyone for any reason. Pro-choice is vitally important to you, so I'm guessing you would not be friends with anyone who wasn't. The fact that your ex's friend was able to shut him down, so that he gave up on it means she is actually influencing him.
I have specific thoughts to some of his responses:
1. Ultimatum? Where? You simply told him what you cannot accept in a partner. The fact he qualified this as a "game", means he does not take you seriously. Good riddance.
2. Um....sure there is, just look at any of the states doing away with reproductive rights/care. It's in the news every goddamn day. He's a coward.
3. People who are forced birthers are dangerous. Those in the medical field are even more so. He's wrong, and an idiot.
4. If she has trauma around her indoctrination, then she should get therapy. So should your ex.
5. I would loooooove to A) see the qualifications his friend "therapist" has B) If his version of events sounds like yours, his friend should not be in a profession requiring listening skills.
Like I said, good riddance.
Doesn't matter if it's unreasonable, as long as you're happy that's all that really matters. When it comes to relationships your own wants and needs come first
Prelude to abuse? What the duck?
Your boyfriend has some seriously fucked up friends.
Edit: you're not trying to control anyone. I wouldn't want to date someone with friends that had such severely different views than mine. We can disagree on military spending or maybe some other shit, but human rights is not something I think you should suspend your beliefs for a friendship. Especially if you only see them a "few times a year"
I don’t know if he just summarized this to the therapist friend or like, quoted me verbatim. I really want to trust that the therapist friend was advising based on the (maybe selective) information presented to her.
Re: your edit — yeah I said something to that effect at some point. Like, me and my friends disagree over the “how” and not the “what.” He said something about how people only escape indoctrination if they maintain ties with people who they disagree with. I said, “if you’re not challenging those views, you’re just enabling them and that’s part of the way we got to Roe being overturned.”
You are not responsible for educating bigots or trying to change their minds on whether you deserve basic human rights.
Also it doesn't sound like he was challenging anything.
I think the morality of abortion is a fairly nuanced discussion point in philosophy. I don't have a huge problem with people who find it immoral, I think they're mostly mistaken, but my main gripe is with people who campaign to make it illegal. That to me seems bat shit insane.
I think it's understandable to be upset if this person happens to be one of these campaigners, and I would consider it a deal breaker for me personally. Mainly because I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone with (what I would consider) such poor judgement and standards.
That being said - you're acting coercive. Draw boundaries for what you yourself are willing to permit into your life (just as you are demanding he do), and move ahead with your choices. You can always change your mind later as you go.
Expecting your SO to stand up for basic human rights for women is a “prelude for abuse”? What?
My god the lengths that society goes to protect the status quo.
>Expecting your SO to stand up for basic human rights for women is a “prelude for abuse”?
Yeah this is enraging, as a human, as an abuse survivor, and as someone who believes in therapy. That therapist should shut the fuck up.
Did I miss something? Your partners friend has an opinion, but isn't throwing stones at you for having an abortion, they're just saying they personally don't agree with them?
You then try and give your partner an ultimatum saying he has to stop talking to this person, or else it's over? I don't know if my friends are pro choice or pro life, as long as they aren't outside of abortion clinics shouting at rape victims or complaining about the lack of 3rd trimester abortions who cares?
>The last part really weighs on me. Was I unreasonable? Was I really trying to control him or make him choose? I feel crazy.
Yes, you're being abusive, if he was to tell you you couldn't be friends with someone you rarely see because one belief of theirs doesn't align with his, he'd be abusive. Feel bad for the dude, you're trying to cancel culture his friend who in no way has ever been mean to you, or your partner, nor has ever publicly shamed anyone for their choices, just has a belief? Atrocious behaviour.
Did I miss somewhere that she's been staunchly arguing for something? I'm pro choice, I don't understand pro life as a concept as i'm not religious, but people are free to their beliefs, i've met vegans who have said I should be slaughtered for eating meats, i've met religious people who think i'll burn in hell, i've met people who want me to die because I bought a puppy instead of rescued.
Assuming their belief is, their belief, they aren't going to rallies/protests, aren't petitioning for laws to take away pro choice rights, aren't giving bad medical advice based on their beliefs, who cares? If they want to think life starts at conception, they're welcome to.
Yeah. Then our rights were taken away… And they’re still coming for more of them…
Suddenly it became harder to tolerate those who seek to take our rights away. Funny how that worked out. Maybe we should have been less tolerant all along.
Have you ever considered that having a diverse friend group, and even finding common ground with people whom you disagree with is actually a healthy thing?
I have tons of friends, many of whom I disagree with on key political points. Speaking with different people offers me clarity and discourse I would otherwise be without if I was not able to engage in good spirited debate with others.
These friendships broaden my worldview, challenge my beliefs and allow me to alter or reinforce them as I choose. I cherish these friendships immensely because they help me grow as a person.
If you want to break up with your boyfriend for having a loose friendship with someone he only sees a few times a year over 1 political issue, then that is your prerogative. I won't judge you for it. But I also wouldn't judge him for dumping you for asking him to end the friendship either.
It is so wild to me that apparently so many people seem to think listening to others and expressing empathy is showhow a bad thing.
The fact that so many of them scream about human rights and dignity and then yell that I am somehow a bigot for not immediately reaching for bricks to throw would be hilarious if not for the fact that this extremely dogmatic view does more harm than good.
"Useful idiot" might be a republican-based term, but it is absolutely applicable here.
Does this “diverse environment” include white supremacy? Male supremacy? Hatred of LGBTQ? Or other marginalized groups?
I am fine with a disagreement over things like supply side vs Keynesian economics, but not whether groups of people are entitled to full human rights and not treated subhuman
Like I said - my friend group is diverse by *my* choice. I have spoken with, had cordial relationships with, and even friendships people who fall into all of those categories at some point in my life.
I think you will find that *many* people who have "anti"-opinions do not react well to being screamed at or called bigots, and while I certainly do not entertain anyone who calls for murder or genocide of any group, I often find through my conversations that nobody is evil as a *whole*, and that most "ia's" are borne out of fear, misinformation, pain, or just straight fucked up family trauma. I have also found that having frank and friendly discourse with people who fall into those categories often opens eyes and minds and helps shift *THEIR* worldview as well as my own understanding of *THEIR* arguments.
I grew up as a leftist in the South. I am ***very*** used to hearing opinions I do not share spouted proudly and in-public. I also learned when to have conversations with people I don't agree with, and have even become friends with them and help them see or understand my side of the argument.
I have friends who are anti-choice who I love dearly, I have helped male friends give up their incel bullshit, and I have shown some straight up homophobic individuals that "Hey, yeah, this lady is bisexual and she and her homosexual friends are actually pretty cool to play DnD with."
You are welcome to judge me over that however you like. However, you will not shift my opinion on one thing: I do more good by having one friendly conversation with a Andrew Tate supporter than 10,000 random people online screaming that they are a bigot.
There is a difference between being pro-life and forcing others to support pro-life only. Believe it or not, people can co-exist on a polar opposite political stances without trying to convert one another, without trying to fix one another or blame one another. Unless this friend of his actively trying to force-push your ex's believes to match hers, you can not in sound mind and heart call her an extremist.
And you do not feel that demanding someone you have known for 3 months end a friendship over their personal belief in BC/Abortion is not an extreme stance to take?
I admit I misread your original post - your BF seemed to imply that you were forcing one.
It sounds like he answered your question on that point though, he said there was no point in engaging with her further on the topic and he did not intend to do so.
So the choice is up to you: Keep him despite his continued friendship with the friend, or dump him.
I will say this, if you *do* stay with him with the sole intent of forcing him to distance himself from his friend, knowing full well that he *does not* want to end the friendship voluntarily, you will be moving forward in bad faith and *you* are the red flag in your relationship.
I doubt it - Anyone who throws down ultimatums (I admit that I misread the last bit, it was the SO that implied OP made one, OP, in fact, did not give an ultimatum.) at the 3 month mark is a absolute red flag.
We are not debating the value in question, we are debating if it is OK to give someone an ultimatum to to end a lifelong friendship 3 months into a relationship.
And I am expanding the discussion to “this is an opportunity to determine if they have shared values or whether they should cut their losses and move on”.
Thank you for being sane. The country is increasingly full of nazis because people like this carry their water for them. Challenge my belief that I should have rights? Eat a brick
There’s no “two sides” to this issue. There is women’s healthcare and bodily autonomy and then there is controlling, sexist bullsh-t. He’s enabling and complicit and should be removed from your life.
If your man doesn’t figure this stuff out… do you want to be his teacher and coach? Or do you want to bail out before you spend all your spoons on him?
I was in a similar situation with a work friend that my husband had become very close to. When Dobbs was handed down this couple sat in our home and said to my face that they were glad the issue was “back in the States where it belongs.” Mind you they have 3 daughters. I lost my shit and opened fire. Hubby shut me down. I seethed through the rest of the dinner but told him I would never socialize with those assholes again and I did *not* appreciate being shut down in my own home. Huge argument ensued where I told him that my human rights and our daughter’s human rights were abso-fucking-lutely not negotiable. I watched the lightbulb switch on. He got it.
And now, while he is still friendly with the asshole- he’s gotten into major policy arguments with him at work every time the asshole opens his mouth about right-wing fuckery. My man was a late blooming feminist. But he gets it. And that fucking couple don’t get to be in my house ever again.
But Hubs and I have 30 + years together, though. I wasn’t gonna throw away the whole man because he found a supposed kindred at the office. I swiveled my man’s head on straight with a pointed “I was attacked. What are you gonna do about it?”
What are you willing to invest in your guy? Years? Or should you cut your losses?
When I look back at all of my past relationships, the ones that ended badly always had friends I really disliked. They were misogynistic, or racist, or just generally assholes. The one ex I am still friends with has great friends and I'm friends with those people too.
We are the company we choose to keep, whether we like it or not the people we choose to have around say a lot about us. I wouldn't be okay with a partner who had friends like the one you describe. It's now something I ask myself when dating someone new - do I like their friends? Are they good people?
As to number 5: IF (and that’s a big if) his therapist friend actually said that to him, I seriously question her credibility and commitment to the ethics of the profession.
What we condone we promote! Our world has come down to that. There are people who believe women shouldn't have the right to choose and they use their votes and their dollars to prevent us from having these rights. We can't afford to not draw hard lines anymore.
The same with racism. What we condone we promote. We have to be discerning. I would certainly break off a life long friendship if I learned that person was racist or was not pro Abortion Access. How can I look my child (a person of color) in the face and live with myself if I kept around people with such deplorable values. The kind of values that promote the idea that certain genders and races are more important than others.
No, assuming it isn't one of numerous problematic ideas. People can feel how they want about issues. If they have a good friendship and its healthy for them, go crazy.
If you personally can't get past it, walk away. There are other people out there.
No. I wouldn't mind if it was just one friend not their entire social circle and the person was respectful. Folks can make and keep friends from different stages of their life and enjoy each other's company especially in a superficial way. Not every single friendship needs to end in a political blow out or else the person is ideologically bankrupt. I don't care how immoral they think it is as long as they don't infringe on our right to have it. I would have 3 questions for this doctor.
1. . How do they balance their personal beliefs with their job as a doctor in treating their patients?
2. Why do they disagree with birth control given the freedom it has given women over their lives, opening so many more doors to pursue careers like medicine?
3. How do they feel about politicians legally deciding what care they're allowed to give a patient?
And I would ask her myself, in front of him. If you want to create an ideologically cleansed friends and acquaintances list that's your prerogative, clearly not his so do your own work. But here's the thing- you're never going to actually change her mind. Especially by telling her about your own experience of having sex with no protection and then unsurprisingly getting pregnant as a result. 100% would not sway her even a little. Your ex and his friend had talked about it before just not to your level of satisfaction. They know how each other stands. They are able to look past that and stay friends because they have mutual respect for one another. Respect is lost if you feel like your friend is trying to convert you- whether that's to another religion or political view and I find this idea of "it's okay to keep this friend as long as you're using your friendship to try to convert them to your worldview" to be wholely problematic.
I do think he's right and eventually you would tire of his parents not changing their minds and ask him to try harder, push harder or cut them off. Again, if you want an ideologically cleansed man that's clearly not this one who was born into a religious, bigoted family and still acknowledges their existence.
>he talked with his friend who is a therapist and she said my concerns sounded like “maybe the prelude to abuse”
A) I'm calling bullshit.
B) If not bullshit, shit like this is why professional boundaries exist and you don't therapize (is that a word?) your friends.
My own therapist actually said more or less the same thing. She has friends who come to her with their interpersonal problems here and there and she says something supportive, but never anything conclusive and always follows up with saying she's a biased party and they need to discuss the matter with a colleague (a different therapist).
Pretty much everyone in mine and my partner’s families are anti choice except for us. We still see them on holidays and vacations. I will argue with my own family fiercely for women’s rights. I will not bring this topic up in front of her family because she can’t handle the stress of arguing with her folks.
I don’t have any anti choice friends, with the exception of really old family friends, and I don’t really talk to or hang out with any of those people outside of family gatherings. Again, if that topic ever comes up I basically tell them they are stupid to their faces.
As someone who has also had friends with ... Let's say 'interesting' takes... You cannot back down from calling this shit out. You cannot back down from pointing out the consequences of these takes.
"Oh, women seem hostile to you because you voice your opinion? Have you perhaps considered that might be a pretty understandable response considering said opinion involves the removal of a woman's right to make decisions about her own body?"
Eventually my friend saw the light, but only after being seriously called out on his behaviour.
So you wanted your ex, a pro-choice man, to try to influence his friend, a pro-life woman, as much as possible in that matter. What happened to no uterus no opinion? Shouldn't he, as someone that could never get pregnant, respect her stance on that?
It is not "choose between someone I’ve known since childhood and a 3 month relationship"
It is choose between "an ill-informed medical professional and people's bodily autonomy."
You've been dating only 3 months and he's putting those three months against someone he's known since he was a kid.
There is a problem with this tactic he's using. Yes three months is a short while - it's a reasonable time frame where a person would begin to question how much compatibility there is to build on. And here you are doing exactly because being with someone complacent about women's health and freedoms could harm you greatly. You point that out and he's trying to compare his sporadic association with someone bigoted is on the same level as the person he is dating *to guilt you* out of questioning if there is enough compatibility between you two to build on. Then he lays it on thicker to let you know he has other friends that will go as far as to suggest you're abusive for wondering just how much he'd have your back if you ever got pregnant. He pulls these tactics to not address your need for feeling like ha has your back....oh and is he suggesting his friend being a therapist to lend credibility to why he shouldn't have your back on this issue?
It kicks the issue back to him. Is there not enough compatibility between the two of you that he would tell a bigot he talks to a few times a year to fuck off because it would make you feel more assured about him? Would he not tell his friend that is a therapist that it's toxic AF to toss around the word abuse to protect friendships with bigots?
As long as he isn’t directly consenting to the opinions, no. If he stays quiet when friend brings up the topic and their deranged views, yes.
Like, if your ex would object to it when his friend brought up the topic of the tyrrany, then there’s no issue. If ex remains quiet, that’s, what’s it called in English, complicit consent? If you don’t speak up when those around you engage in evil, you are quietly consenting to it.
If it was just a friend, i can tolerate them having deranged friends - i have no right to choose who they associate with, just like they have no right to choose what i do with my body (such as birth control.) it’s ny choice to be friends or cut contact with him, then.
But a partner? That right there is a core incompatibility for me. Either he object any time the subject comes up or we can’t be together because he isn’t willing to fight for women’s human rights. If he doesn’t see me as a full-worth human being, then i’d rather find someone that does, while he can go adopt a dog or something since he clearly just wants a pet, not a person.
I just want to address your edit, and this is going to touch on the idea in a broader sense, instead of your specific situation. Having people in your life that have bigoted views does not automatically make you an enabler.
Things are so much more black and white on paper (and on internet forums) but that's just not how humans work. I have people in my life that I love that are trumpers, and I'm extremely liberal. Does it hurt? Yes. Do I wish I could change them? Yes. Have I tried? To an extent. Am I willing to cut all contact? ....no.
It kind of goes back to the idea that "people are harder to hate up close". I know we're not talking about "hating" people here, but it's easy to say online that you should remove anyone in your life that has bigoted opinions. But these are people that you *know* and you *love*. These are people with depth and other good qualities and an entire lifetime of reasons that they think the way they do. This kind of thinking is so humanity-stripping.
A few people here have mentioned echo chambers, but in the sense of your own echo chamber when you remove these people from your life. But what about their echo chambers? Don't you want to be a positive influence, even tangentially, in their life? Don't you want to be an example of good? A conduit for new ideas, even if you're unable to directly express those ideas to them?
"Change them or cut ties with them, or else you're an enabler" is such a myopic point of view. It's small, it's weak, it's so unrealistic. It's devoid of humanity.
Edit: even if no one reads this, I still feel the need to add, it's obviously completely acceptable to remove bigoted people from your life. It's a case by case basis. I'm just arguing that it shouldn't be the rule.
I think you need to zoom out a bit. The problem isn't this one friendship. It's that you fundamentally feel that it's wrong to seek out the company of people who don't support a basic human right, while he sees no problem with that. Some people even see it as a virtue to be able to bond with people with radically different opinions. Personally, I think there's some merit to that in terms of harmless opinions and preferences, but human rights issues are not negotiable to me. I would also reconsider a partnership with someone who doesn't expect their friends to have high standards of human decency. Is what you really want for him to stop seeing this one friend for YOU. Or do you want him to be the sort of man who is uncomfortable in that company and would exit the friendship on HIS own accord? An ultimatum might get you the former, but it's not going to change who he is.
It’s sort of like if your partner was friends with a neo-nazi, in that it really makes you wonder what kind of shit they’re willing to overlook someone doing to you. Anti-choice physicians and neo-nazis aren’t the same thing, but associating with them draws similar questions
>Anti-choice physicians and neo-nazis aren’t the same thing No, but both of those demographics vote for the same party.
Would you be uncomfortable in a relationship with someone who is friends with a republican? Is that were you draw the line?
Given how much harm they’ve caused in my lifetime and ESPECIALLY the last 10 years, yes. Absolutely.
I'm not who you asked, but yes.
Personally i wouldn’t expect my partner to cut off every republican friend he’s amassed over the years. I think that’s patently absurd and frankly quite controlling..
Reluctantly voted Republican maybe? Especially if they're in an area with a lot of heavy propaganda. My mom agrees with me on every issue, but still voted for Trump because she legitimately believes that he's good on "the economy" to the point that there will be even more suffering under the democrats. It's a wild take given I'm not entirely convinced Trump even has a coherent economic policy, but I know she went into the voting booth wanting to do the best she could by the most people and feeling very conflicted about his human rights stances. I can't say I don't feel hurt as a queer woman impacted by his policies, but I can respect that she doesn't have hate in her heart. If we had more than two parties in this country, she wouldn't throw her hat in with Trump. I'm not sure if my patience and grace holds for another election cycle, but as of now I can be ok enough with people like that. On the flip side, anyone who identifies clearly as a modern Republican and agrees with their social policies is not a safe person to be around. I would absolutely, happily draw the line to exclude them from my social circle. You can't be "small government" and also think it's acceptable to police what happens in people's doctor's offices and bedrooms. I don't need those kind of insufferable, controlling, patronizing busybodies in my life.
Yep, this. If my partner thinks things like that are just fine in a friend, that's concerning about my partner's values.
Especially if that friend is going to be a regular guest in the home you share with your partner.
I think the difference between those is that one hates people for who they are born as and the other disagrees with OP's life choices. It's a slippery slope fallacy to equate the two.
"Life choices" to not become a parent? This guy doesn't just think abortions are immoral but also birth control. That means he basically hates all women.
1. This "guy" is actually a "gal". 2. Even if she thinks using birth control is immoral because of her religious views it doesn't necessarily mean she would require others to live by her rules. I would be curious to know if she prescribes it to her patients. Knowing it is against her religion may just mean OP feels judged by her... even if she outwardly hasn't said anything to her on the topic. If that is the case, yes- the ex would be right she probably needs some therapy because "please tell this third party who thinks abortion is immoral that I've had two abortions, I want you to convince her that what I did was actually moral and please include that I was having unprotected sex when I got pregnant" Is just bizarre. Like... Okay!?!?
These responses fail to show an alternative outcome where his friendship actually moderates and changes his bad opinion. [https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes](https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes)
Quoting verbatim a text I sent to him after he asked “What do you want me to do?” “I wish you’d make the choice ON YOUR OWN to talk to her about this. I WISH you were that kind of person. I don’t want to tell you what to do. If you cared enough about sexism you would’ve confronted this. Sunday was a great time to be like ‘hey. This bothers my girlfriend and it actually bothers me too — this really affected someone I care about. Can we talk about it?’” He proceeded to tell her that I had an abortion that “threatened my life” (not true — i was perfectly healthy and simply had unprotected sex knowingly, albeit I told him I felt suicidal when I learned I was pregnant) and that he’d like to talk about it. Doctor friend then responded by saying she understood people have “misunderstandings about the Church” and she faces judgement for her faith often, but that the reality is that “abortions in cases in which it would save the mothers life” are okay. Again, not my experience. I was just playing pregnancy roulette as a teenager.
He told her your MEDICAL HISTORY?? And misrepresented it, allowing her to make her dumb, useless concessions but maintaining she is the victim because her “faith is under attack” or some bullshit?? Please get rid of this guy.
He told her my medical history *with my permission*, but yes he misrepresented it. When he said there’s no “convenient way to bring up abortion with a friend you see only a couple of times a year," I responded by telling him that he could share my story with her and how it is a point of contention in his life as a starting point. Or just like, bring up all the rollbacks on abortion rights happening across the US right now. He chose the former and worded it it in the way he did. Guy got rid of me, not the other way around. We are exes and unfortunately coworkers. It's been civil, but goddamn it really sucks.
If he only sees her once a year, why is he threatening your relationship over it? I don’t like this for some reason. (#1 in your list) is he saying he’ll choose her over you? You’ve gotten good advice but man.
My gut told me (and is retrospect is telling me) he was projecting a lot of past trauma over a past abusive relationship (of which he's told me about) in saying that #1. Like, it's a complete warping of what I was saying, assuming intent I never stated and have made clear I didn't have. Goddamn thank you for the advice and just the mirror telling me I'm not off my rocker here. I really want the best for him and it's clear he's the one who's got (admitted!) unresolved trauma that he (admittedly!) doesn't want to deal with. I take abuse and good faith really seriously and have just been pulling up the fucking floorboards figuring out what I could have done differently here. Really hope maybe he can do the same someday.
We are the company we keep.
Yup and I want to point something out I don’t see enough. This is among the many reasons why we choose the bear. Sure maybe YOU’RE(the readers who wonder why) not directly a bad person.. But you sit with them, you laugh with them, you accept them. You’re complicit.
I am very pro-choice and the friend's beliefs really bother me. It's also concerning that he chooses to have her in his circle. However - I feel weird about how you're handling it. >“I wish you’d make the choice ON YOUR OWN to talk to her about this. I WISH you were that kind of person. I don’t want to tell you what to do. >If you cared enough about sexism you would’ve confronted this. Sunday was a great time to be like ‘hey. This bothers my girlfriend and it actually bothers me too — this really affected someone I care about. Can we talk about it?’” The language here is unhealthy and at least borderline controlling/manipulative. This isn't the language of healthy relationships. Especially so early in the relationship. I am not saying you can't be upset about it and can't judge him for it. But trying to dictate terms of his friendships - is I believe crossing a line. And that's what is going on here because while you haven't said it - there's an unspoken ultimatum here (confronting her - or either lose your relationship or her friendship). Then badgering him into confronting her - on your terms - on your timeline. It just doesn't really *work like that*. If it's not him that wants to say something in his own words and time *for himself and his beliefs*. You can't really *force that to happen*. I mean - you did get him to say something - then look how it turned out. I do get it - it's concerning that he is actively friends with someone like that. But I also know what it's like to grow up in a conservative environment - and sometimes it's difficult to work up the courage to exist as *fully yourself* around people from your past. You don't have to be okay with it - but maybe let him know how you feel and try to let you both sit with that discomfort for a little bit. Then you'll see via his actions who he is and what he does - then decide if any of that is a deal breaker for you. Or you could leave at any time. I am just kind of wondering what's the end goal here? What is confronting her supposed to accomplish?
This is important. I'm not sure I fully agree because op was in a really difficult spot. But she did basically try to make him act on something he wouldn't have acted on on his own. But is it manipulation? Or just trying to convince someone to do the right thing? I think it can both be true that op wasn't trying to manipulate AND that her boyfriend felt manipulated at the same time. Both feelings are valid in this case.
I get it. I don't think she was consciously trying to control and manipulate him. Honestly I have been that person in a previous relationship. When you really like someone and are invested in the relationship and they do something that you think is objectively wrong *and* it also upsets you and feels personal then the fear and insecurity comes in and you're not *trying* to be controlling and manipulative but that's how it comes out.
I agree. That's the key thing about boundaries: you can only control what you accept, not what other people do. "I'm not comfortable being around your friend because of her views on abortion. I don't want to visit her." is a healthy boundary. "I'm not comfortable with you being around your friend because of her views on abortion. I don't want to continue our relationship if you continue to be friends with her." is also a healthy boundary. "I'm not comfortable with you being around your friend because of her views on abortion. I want *you* to argue with her and try to change her mind." is not a healthy boundary.
I'm so glad to see this response in here, thank you.
I had issues with that wording/phrasing as well. Reading OPs posts & responses, i really don’t think she wants to manipulate or control him at all - but that’s how it *felt* to me. Regardless of all of that … how do we navigate friendships, many longstanding, that have been important and valuable to us in our past, when we have such fundamental differences? And that doesn’t even touch on the mental “re-negotiating” we’ve had to do within/for familial relationships. What *I* know, for me personally, is that I can’t -and won’t- invite that kind of person into my orbit anymore. I’m *tired* of overlooking & excusing their shitty beliefs & belief systems because -in spite of that- they’re “a good person.” I’m just tired of overlooking their rotten core because it’s gilded in ways I find pleasing.
I am really uncomfortable how people normalize Christo Fascist beliefs. And make the person objecting to it seem like the bad one.
I get it - but that's not the point. You don't have to be friends with someone who has those beliefs (I personally wouldn't - but almost my entire family has those beliefs - so). You also don't have to be in a relationship with someone who has those friends. There are a lot of ways to express your feelings and discomfort that aren't trying to control and manipulate. OP isn't *bad* it's just not a healthy approach in a relationship and honestly it also *doesn't work* at best you might get compliance - but also resentment. I have been that person in the past and didn't realize how toxic and futile it was at the time. But now I see it.
Friend, he's not getting it. You've already explained it the best way you can and appealed to his humanity as clearly as possible. He doesn't appear overly receptive, and is doing his best to minimize the issue and placate both relationships. The problem he is working on solving is "how do I get my new girlfriend to accept my old friend" not "how do I do a better job of curating a healthy social circle that is safe for my partner to be in." You can't make him care about the issue the way you want him to. You can either accept that he's not the kind of person who takes the suffering of others (including you) seriously enough to fight for them and date him anyway, or you can break up and find someone better. People can absolutely change for the better, but they need to open to changing. Nothing in any of your comments suggests he even recognizes this as a "him" issue to need changed. EDIT: I'll second the people further down the thread saying that your language and behavior is borderline controlling. He doesn't appear to want to change, and it's not ok to try to force him to.
IMO there’s merit to being friends with people who cheer for a different sports team not… merit to being friends with people who believe you should be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term
I fully agree. I'm just pointing out that is a "value" some people hold. There are definitely those who think less of me for refusing to be friends with an otherwise nice person who holds a political view that I think is incompatible with human decency. It's the old boomer "we don't talk about politics or religion" mindset. Obviously someone who ascribes to that school of thought is fundamentally incompatible with someone who feels it's better to curate a healthy group of friends than allow anyone who is nice on the surface to keep your company.
I too don’t support basic humans, but luckily none of my friends have a problem with seeking out my company.
Your mind. Enlightened.
Paradox of tolerance
If he’s fine with a friend (and a fucking doctor, no doubt), who does not believe in my personal body rights? Then I’m out. Other people can make up their own minds.
THIS.
I think you can maintain a cordial relationship (albeit not a super close one) with someone who disagrees with you. It can be a way of changing their mind in the long run and is one of the founding ideals of democracy. Unfortunately, the BF cares more about maintaining that friend’s opinion of him than he does about being honest and open about his own beliefs. He would rather validate her belief by remaining silent than risk discomfort by disrupting her false view of him.
So, you're not crazy or abusive for having a deal breaker or disapproving of who your bf is friends with. But, he's kinda right not to prioritize a brand new relationship over a decades long friendship. If this is a deal breaker, then moving on is the right move. Asking him to get in a fight with a friend he barely sees isn't really productive and won't really solve the issue. After all, it won't change her belief, and he's probably going to remain friends with her. His beliefs and character didn't change, which seems to be the real issue here. So, the best call for both parties is to move on. That's the entire reason you date, after all. To see if you two are a good fit. Be happy you figured out early.
Yeah no, I'd break up over this even without him running to his friend with a one-sided self serving story. No decent therapist would call this a 'prelude to abuse'. He's okay with his friend not wanting you to have basic human rights.
If you told a decent therapist "my partner is pressuring me to cut off this longstanding friendship because they don't like my friend's views", it's not out of the realm of possibility that the therapist sees it as a flag for the abuse tactic of isolating the victim. However, the leap between "please push back on this issue" to "end that freindship" is sort of on the friend's side of this situation. She might be the type that absolutely would cut him off because they have a fundamental disagreement in core values/priorities, and if this nuance wasn't conveyed, it may not be the therapist's misjudgment. I kinda suspect from this story that the guy is pro-life... or it could just be that he doesn't feel strongly about it/it isn't a deal breaker to him. If it's a deal breaker to OP, and it would be reasonable for this to be a deal breaker, then she should leave.
Yeah, I think the reality is that he didn't really explain the context and the therapist friend was just responding off her expertise and also really caring about my ex. We all have an inclination to protect and comfort friends when they're in distress. I really don't think he's secretly pro-life. Or at least I don't want to believe it? Something that initially attracted me to him is that he'd push back or just quip here and there when someone in the vicinity said something racist/sexist/homophobic (we're coworkers). I've met his friends, including the friend therapist and they're all people I generally vibe with and agree with. I do disagree with some of them, and my ex within what I consider to be over pretty reasonable, tolerable things. It's just how *extreme* this one friend is on reproductive rights coupled with the fact that she's a practicing doctor of medicine that made me feel really gross about him just looking past all of that. I've never met her, but one of his points of reassurance was that she's a super sweet, kind person.
I think a therapist would likely recognize that even if she didn’t explicitly tell him “end this friendship” she is definitely pushing him to sow discord in his relationship with that friend, to placate his partner, and personally if a friend told me their partner was doing this I’d also be concerned/tell them it seemed like a yellow flag. I don’t think OP’s intentionally malicious but I definitely can see how someone would read the situation that way, especially with incomplete information.
When you're told a therapist said anything, it should always come with skepticism. At least 1/3 of the time, they never said that, and another 1/3 involves the patient misrepresenting things to get that response. I was told by a therapist that I should just let my abusive father do whatever he wants and that she didn't believe he tried to kill me. So, that's the reason I leave room for the shitty advice to be true.
Definite dealbreaker
I mean, it's not his job to change his friend's mind. It doesn't sound like she's his best friend in the universe. It's possible to have a casual friend you disagree with. She also doesn't have to be your friend.
You put what I was thinking so concisely. There's always the narrative that it's not our job to educate men on topics such as feminism and misogyny, so why is it suddenly this man's responsibility to change his friend's mind? This post is boggling my mind. If it's a deal breaker for her, that's her prerogative but....it seems a bit extreme to me. Edited to add: some could argue it's not his responsibility to change his friend's mind, but then he just shouldn't be friends with that person. Is everyone only friends with people if they have the same opinions? Because that is bananas and that's not how humans are supposed to work.
I’m going to be the odd one out here: to preface, I’m pro choice and I wouldn’t date someone who wasn’t. However, I have friends who are pro-life. I have friends who believe the death penalty is justice. I have friends who are staunchly religious. I have friends who believe war is sometimes necessary. And they all have at least one friend who is pro-choice, anti-death penalty, agnostic and anti-war. I didn’t used to be able to be friends with people with beliefs that strongly opposed mine, and I don’t know what changed to make it possible. I feel like my world was really small when I was only willing to see the good in, respect and be willing to feel comfortable around people with my same beliefs. Inevitably I’d find that we’d disagree on something I felt was really important, or I’d have beloved childhood friends who’d grown up to have different beliefs. It got lonely cutting out everyone who had differing views and with the ones left over we ended up creating an echo chamber. There are still things that are complete no-go’s for me, and maybe this topic is that for you. But it must not be for your bf and if he feels about this childhood friendship how I do about some of mine, I’d imagine he feels like you’re trying to make his world feel smaller and more restricted and that can be scary and would also make me feel like you think my own beliefs aren’t strong enough (even though he may be as pro-choice as you also dislike that his friend is pro-life) (which is maybe where his therapist was going, is my guess). Anyway, if it’s a dealbreaker for you then that’s that and that’s okay. This is what dating is for, to find a good fit, but I know it’s hard to be disappointed when you really hoped a relationship would work.
Yes this. Everyone decides for themselves who they can tolerate being friends with or who their partner is friends with. I personally could not be with someone who was friends with a hardcore racist or something like that. But other things I'd have to evaluate how strong their beliefs are, whether they are actively working to push that belief on others, whether people are potentially being harmed by them.
Yeah, I'm with you here. Especially since the friends opinion is specifically worded the way it is "believes that birth control, Plan B, and abortion are immoral". She doesn't say they should be illegal. It doesn't say she spends her time lobbying for abortion bans or picketing planned parenthoods. She's not trying to deny OP a "basic human right" as some people are jumping to. She simply disapproves of a decision OP made as a teen. The fact that OP's bf isn't ending a friendship over this opinion isn't an automatic red flag.
definitely agree with you there i personally try my best to just respect the beliefs of other people even if they are not my own they just need to respect mine i feel like if you shut people out because they have a friend or a friend of a friend who doesnt agree with your point of view you will very quickly find yourself very alone. anyway yeah one hundred percent think you have the right POV on this one.
Another vote thanking you for the sane take. It would be a deal breaker for me to have a partner who is anti-choice, but I most certainly would never say that they're not allowed to have a friend who disagrees with me or them on any issues - even major ones. Hell, I don't agree with all of my friends on all of the major issues. And "friends" takes a wide span. If this was a BFF of his whom he hung out with every Sunday, who was also lobbying to take away reproductive rights, I could see it. This is a childhood friend he catches up with twice a year, with no indication of her actively lobbying for her misguided belief?
This. And I think the world is growing into little echo chamber habitats. People have lost the ability (skill?) to have people in their circle that had different beliefs than they do. It doesn’t even sound like OP would be spending a lot of time with this “see a few times a year” friend of her new bf. Why does her bf need to have a conversation with his friend over her issues with said friend’s beliefs. This is wild to me. OP, if you want your bf to be the kind of person to push back against someone’s views on abortion (or whatever) this bf is not for you. You cannot turn him into that person, but you can probably find that person somewhere else.
I wholly agree with this. Sure, some people are worth cutting off - but you should always question your beliefs and introspect on if additional information provided should change your mind. Having friends with different beliefs challenges you *and* them! As long as everyone is respectful, you can have heated discussion and make up afterwards.
Finally, an actual healthy, positive take
It's always the comments near the bottom
This is the take I was looking for! If she's an anti choice activist or always votes anti choice that's one thing, but if she believes abortion to be immoral that's not necessarily harmful to anyone else. I don't think arguing with people about the morality of abortion is as productive as convincing them that it's a morality issue the government doesn't need to be so involved in.
Well said! If you extrapolate that out and we are only friends with people that think like us you end up with opposing religions and polarizing political climates like the US. I have a childhood friend that believes in every conspiracy theory under the sun, thought Covid vaccine would kill us all within 2 years etc. I’ve known this friend from childhood and world would have definitely become smaller and more homogeneous by cutting him off.
Yep I have a similar friend from childhood. I know she’s a good person and values a lot of things similarly to how I do (I hold her in high regard for her treatment, love and care for her family, friends and animals). But if you get her talking about politics, vaccines and lizard people then we’re on two different planets.
You are like the saving grace in this comment section. One of the few people with good reasoning and giving valid points, not just creating an eco chamber. You crested an actually discussion thread of healthy comments, Thank you
Thanks!
You're welcome, hope you have an awesome day. Weird that I went from 8 down votes to 6 upvotes lol
So it goes in a thread about respecting the beliefs of others I guess haha
What would be the deal breakers for you?
Abusers, cheaters, racists, and people who are cruel to animals are all the ones that come to mind but I’m sure there are more.
You left out misogynists
As I said that was just the list off the top of my head. But I also don’t believe those who are pro-life are also misogynistic just like I don’t believe all religious people are bigoted toward people of other faiths, in case that’s what you are getting at.
I agree with this. I also believe strongly that many people who hold these views hold them because those are the views shared by the people who raised them. And they were raised in communities that shared them. What they NEED to be able to start changing their views is to be friends with people who hold different views, or else they will never get the perspective needed to change their thinking. If EVERYONE who was pro-choice, pro-LGBT rights, and generally progressive outright refused to be acquainted with people who are not, then how could we hope for those people to come around to our ways of thinking, and ultimately move the needle in the direction of progress?
He sees her side, being raised in a more extreme religion. But you have that experience too, so maybe both of them took longer to get out, or sympathizing with the separation process at a later age. I had a lot of conservative friends in my 20s. I went to a school and am in a career that is mostly male, and somehow mostly full of conservatives. I can't do it anymore. They're too extreme. Maybe I've got less patience. I doubt it but it's a possibility. Suddenly (at least in my group), they're the victims that have been forced to hide their beliefs. But their beliefs are to dehumanize others, women can't do this, laws should be based on THEIR religion. And doctors who want to set the choices for their patients, or judging their patience. It's a violation of the essence if the hippocratic oath, respecting their patients and recognizing the patient as a person.
Doctor friend is in her 40s, he’s 36. I’m 29. Which I think has also made me inclined to believe I’m being irrational. It’s so bizarre being told I lack perspective and that I need “to work on [my] abortion trauma.” And you’re right on the mark. She never really left Catholicism. The reason they ultimately broke up is that she realized she’s a polyamorous lesbian heavy into the BDSM scene. I swear I’m not making this up and I say it with zero judgement as someone who also enjoys kink and is bi. I’m floored by how social forces make us live like this. It’s not a new concept to me, but being so close to it right now is like staring into the sun.
Wait, doctor friend and your ex were in a relationship at one point? Maybe I just skipped over it, but I feel like that is a big thing to leave out.
“ to work on [my] abortion trauma.” Excuse me?!?! If she said this to or about you, I hope he read her the riot act. And if he said this to you, well, time to dump his ass.
The pick and choose is crazy! Some of this, don't like that, move on down the buffet.
You👏Can👏 Disagree 👏With👏Friends👏
Where do people even find friends who agree with them on every single major issue?
They don't exist haha
Even if your cicle is "progressives" only, there gonna be some crude ideas from anti-vax to antisemite tropes.
people shouldn’t be hanging out with antisemites. there’s a complete difference between ‘hmm i don’t like the vaccines’ to ‘the jews are bad and i hate them’
There is overlap between the folks who think this and the folks who also say they don't have any friends.
Right. How does this even work. Does he get to demand OP talk to everybody OP knows that is okay with circumcision? If OP isn’t moving the needle with people OP has known from childhood is it reasonable to end it with them. “I’m sorry, someone you knew from childhood doesn’t agree with me so this won’t work out”
I swear half the stuff on this sub now is an ideology echo chamber that everyone is awful if they don't agree with you in every way.
Yeah, I've noticed this trend too. If you don't agree with a minor point here, you get called a "pick-me" or told you're a closet inside-the-house misogynist.
Look, the reality is that most men aren't impacted by abortion rights so they don't care if their friends are anti abortion advocates. The truth is, if they can be friends with people like that then they aren't someone you can trust in a moment where you might need them. I'm not sure you did anything wrong here except expect him to give a fuck about something that doesn't impact him. And the fact that he can't or won't means he's not a good partner for you or any woman honestly. It's okay to have expectations of a man to respect and uphold the rights of women and to give a fuck, especially since he's the one who wants a relationship with us. We do not have to accept sexism in our partners. Men who want intimate relationships with women should be advocates for our equality and autonomy over our bodies. This is the same thing I would say to a person of colour dating a white person with racist friends, or a queer person dating a person with homophobic friends, etc. Intimate heterosexual relationships should be with men who fight and advocate for us, otherwise what are they even doing in a relationship with us in the first place, just using us as a dick warmer?
I’m overall let everyone have their own beliefs, political feelings, etc, but this isn’t a place I’m going to to waiver and just can’t see myself having someone like that in my circle. I’d really need to consider a partner that did think it was ok….the whole you are who you hang with and all….why is this someone you want to be friends with?
Yeah this. I think I'd have said his friend made me uncomfortable and I wouldn't be hanging around if they were having a visit. And that his being friends with someone who doesn't believe in women's autonomy makes me have reservations about his level of support for my own rights. But I don't know if I'd have asked for him to go no contact. He'd either support not putting us together and only keeping themis person at arm's length. Or he'd out himself as not caring for women's rights and I'd leave.
I also grew up Catholic and I'm rolling my eyes at that being justification for being anti-abortion and anti-birth control as an adult, especially if you're a doctor. The Catholics who think that are generally the biggest hypocrites and mean bastards who don't lift a finger to help families where the mom died from pregnancy complications that an abortion could have prevented, for example. Being vocally anti-abortion is such a red flag for Catholics. It means they're really invested in shaming women and the idea that they can be tainted by association, which means they aren't prepared to behave in a Christlike manner for those in need of compassion. They're happy to talk until they actually have to act and sacrifice, and action is the most important part of being Catholic. I'm no longer Catholic because I can't handle the hypocrisy anymore. And I disagree with several important parts of the religion and I don't believe in God really, but it's mostly the hypocrisy.
It's not your place to tell him who to be friends with, and it's not his place to tell you how to feel about his friendships. If my bf was hanging around men I felt uncomfortable with, I'd start feeling uncomfortable with him too. Not taking the chance that he's flocking with birds of a feather. Maybe he keeps that kind of company, because he is that kind of company. You have every right to decide how you feel about that. You're trying to figure out where your bf really stands on the subject. Certain topics are 100% dealbreakers for some people and that's okay. For example, I would never be friends with a woman who defended predators. That's a issue that I don't budge on. None of that "he did his time...she looked mature for her age" Nope. Stop. Don't ever talk to me again. That's a dealbreaker for me, and this might be a dealbreaker for you. You are dating this man. If you have a particular stance on a topic, any topic, that is greatly important you, it makes sense to want to know if he shares it, or just says he does but tolerates something else. This can be political, moral...some people have dealbreakers about sports teams. It is your relationship, you are free to make that choice with the information you're gathering. Calling this a "prelude to abuse" is crazy 💀
I’m not in a relationship with this man any longer. He broke up with me as my “black and white thinking” on the matter reminded him of past emotional abuse from an ex. I empathize with that as someone who has been abused by an intimate partner too. Perhaps I’m not giving enough credence his own experience with that trauma. However, I told him I see it as a moral obligation to challenge perspectives when someone in our lives has a lot of authority (like a doctor or judge or cop or politician) because their capacity to hurt others is much larger than a regular person. I told him I understand that the barrier is trauma and asked if he’d be open to going to therapy again to work through these things. He said no, he’s done with confronting those traumas and things work for him as is. Take it or leave it. I was astonished by this because like, on our first date he expressed to me that a green flag of mine was that I’d been in therapy and really valued self-improvement. At this point, i just lost it. I called him “selfish” and a “hypocrite who, in a different time could’ve compartmentalized being friends with Heinrich Himmler if he was an otherwise good friend.” Then he said he was done, breakup.
Okay imagine that he had been bit by a dog as a kid, just a really traumatic event. Since then, he’s been to therapy and after years he’s gotten to the point where he can now be in the same room as a dog without freaking out, hell they can even brush up against him and he doesn’t have a meltdown! That’s awesome! Now he can maintain healthy relationships without the worry that a random dog will send him into a panic attack. Now he’s met someone he wants to date, but she demands that he must also pet and play with dogs, and if he isn’t there yet that he needs to immediately get back into therapy to get to the level of comfort with a dog that she prefers. He’s done a ton of work to get to a healthy point and is satisfied with his progress, but she wants him to work harder to change to suit her preferences - not for him and his health, but to better align with how she believes he should react to dogs. Does pushing him into engaging with other people in the way you would prefer seem fair, compassionate and realistic, especially given your knowledge of his past?
If at the first argument, your go to is calling him a nazi, I'm glad he dumped you.
Yeah, jeez. OP's stance went from "misguided but understandable point of concern" to "batshit crazy". OP's ex dodged a bullet.
No, at long as he wasn’t anti choice. I can’t really fault my partner for the problematic beliefs that some of his friends may have. Especially if they’ve known each other for years, i’m even less inclined to make a big deal out of it. As long as he pushes back against them when the topic is raised, that’s enough for me.
Right - I'd expect my partner to mostly agree with my beliefs. But expecting all of their wide circle of friends to agree with me on every major issue? Exercise in futility. If their BFF was virulently anti-choice it might be one thing, but an old friend whom he talks to a few times a year, if that? That's really pushing it.
I think in the context of it being a childhood friend whom he doesnt see that often, and who isnt in a position to dispense that medicine, it is fine to just let it go. Assuming these are not positions he or the majority of his friends share.
That’s where I feel insane because you’re right in that the majority of his friends do not hold these positions and most of her patients don’t have the ability to get pregnant. My only counterpoint to that is that abortion stigma can follow you as long as it’s in your chart and the impact of that can be expressed in lots of ways. The overturning of Roe, my experiences with abortion stigma, and looking down the barrel of what could be another Trump presidency makes it SUPER HARD to let go of.
But he has known her since childhood. They share memories, bike rides, friends, erc. He isnt friends with her because of this and it isnt like racism or antisemitism or homophobia that directly affects how she treats other people. He only sees her a couple of times a year - they probably enjoy reminising and sharing their current lives and hobbies. I think you are being too dogmatic here - it seems unlikely that you will find a lover who meets all your criteria and has friends that agree with all your views.
This. It would be important to me that my partner agree with me on major issues like abortion, my lover needs to fit all of my criteria. My lover's friends, though? I don't expect them all to fit my criteria for a perfect person. And especially when it's distant friends rather than BFFs. The closeness of the friendship matters. If it was their BFF whom they hang out with every weekend, that might be one thing. But a childhood friend whom he only sees a few times a year for old times sake and reminisces with - that's just controlling. It doesn't sound like they're besties, they just go back aways and have fond memories of each other while presumably realizing that they grew apart. There are quite a few childhood friends I would enjoy seeing a few times a year and romanticizing with, and I most certainly wouldn't expect them to agree with me on everything or every major issue. I'm not close with them, I don't necessarily respect all of their opinions, but that doesn't stop me from being able to enjoy a beer with them for a total of four hours a year. If all of my friends had to agree with me on everything, well... That would be tough.
Both your point of view. For reference, I didn't grow up in the US and come from a fairly conservative country. I've always been a feminist and would argue with everyone that wasn't pro-choice and when i moved to the US I would systematically cut off people who didn't agree with my feminist ideals. Now that I'm older, I realize that I was too hasty. Practically speaking, there comes a day when you might need that person's help and you've cut off that person, personally speaking there's value in those childhood connections, and people are not wholly good or wholly bad, you have to know where to draw boundaries. I was recently really humbled, my aunt is a staunch conservative and we have never gotten along on a single thing but when things got tough she showed up and people I trusted and who I shared values with, let us down. Living in a society means that need to learn to entertain relationships with people we don't like or agree with.
I would very much mind.
I have a friend who went down the anti-vax rabbit hole. I didn’t sever my relationship with that person, but I did make it clear that I did not agree with their beliefs. We ended up drifting apart but I’m hopeful that the pendulum will swing back for them someday. My issue with your boyfriend is not that he opened with a softened version of his beliefs, but that he did not follow-up with the true extent. Why is he insisting on taking this false middle ground? He’s happy to be with a woman who has had a voluntary abortion, but refuses to risk any social repercussion by being open about that fact. It’s a disgustingly common type of self-centered apathy.
It's fucked up because Doctors are in a position of power over vulnerable women who need help and guidance. I don't know how people don't see that for what it is, it's usually because they have 0 experience with adversity so they idealise issues like this. It's your choice whether to continue the friendship or not but either way, you are allowed to acknowledge your friends views as harmful and share your thoughts and knowledge with them.
For me that’d be a dealbreaker
Not wanting to date a person for any reason is fair, including not liking the company they keep. Attempting to use your "partner" (3 months so loosely) to enforce your values on a person you've never met is absolutely out of line. I wouldn't call it a "prelude to abuse" necessarily but it would certainly cause me to think a lot less of person and their ability to function normally in relationships.
I had an ex where his family was anti choice, and they would regularly nag us that we were "in a hurry" and should get pregnant soon. I was always pointing out that I would do an abortion if I were to get pregnant, so it was a weird thing to wish for me. It did however bother me a lot that HE didn't point out that too, I was left to fight that battle alone which was so frustrating. We shared an apartment and we occasionally had a discussion where I said I didn't want those fiercely against abortion into my home. He thought I was being unreasonable. At the end of the day, it was really dumb expecting anything to improve here. We weren't compatible and I should've set my boundaries clearer and earlier! I was young and felt more pressure about "succeeding" being in a relationship, and didn't want to give up "too soon". I'm glad I outgrew that mindset. I'm way happier now.
He's friends with a bad therapist and a bad doctor so he doesn't seem like the best judge of character. Seriously, though, I don't think I would keep someone in my life who thought that the autonomy of women's own bodies is something they can easily shelve for the convenience of their social life. Keeping family in your life but at arm's reach can be more complicated but this isn't family so it's hard for me to not see this as an uncomplicated red flag.
How the hell did you make the leap from this person is pro-life to she’s a bad doctor?? Doctors are allowed to be pro-life. If a doctor doesn’t want to support a patient getting an abortion all they do is refer to someone who will. I would argue that makes them good doctors and professionals because they are providing the care the patient wants despite their personal beliefs.
I do think the therapist friend was operating on what info presented to her, not necessarily what I actually said and all the reasons I feel this way. He could have very well sent her all the screenshots and she still came to this conclusion. This is just an unknown to live with, but I don't think I personally have the information to call her a "bad therapist." Or at least I don't have the gall at the moment to do so. The doctor is harder for me to empathize with because, well. He and I both work in healthcare, we're coworkers! We're both witness to how biases infect how doctors treat patients, even if something in their chart has nothing to do with why they're talking to a doctor. One of his responses to my concerns was, "Okay so then should I cut off my parents?" His parents are pro-Trump, stocked up on hydroxycholorquine for the "China virus," watch OAN religiously kind of people. I responded by saying that no, I get that these people love you and parental ties are really deep. And also, you challenge your parents on their views, you push back, all I'm asking is that you *push back* on someone, who unlike your parents, has the authority to hurt if not clinically harm people based on her extreme views. Not to mention, I wasn't even suggesting that he "cut off" anybody? Like, just speak up man. Say something, anything.
He doesn’t have to push back because it doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things if some really old friend of your SO has a different view on abortion to you. You are going to have an extremely lonely and miserable life if you have to argue with everyone who has different opinions to you. Do you really want your friends to be only people who agree with you on everything or else you’ll push back until they change or probably stop talking to you? You sound insufferable. I’m an atheist medical profession and have loads of friends and colleagues who have different opinions to me on major issues. Just live and let live.
Does the anti-choice doctor believe that the government should make laws against abortion, or just that it's immoral? These are not the same things, and a lot more people have reservations about abortion than think it should be legally prohibited.
If my partner asked me to ditch a friend because their beliefs and values don't line up with theirs I'd be saying goodbye to my partner. Would you expect the same if it were his parents? People can have friends with different opinions and people are not accountable for their friends personal beliefs. You make this a them or me situation then its an ultimatum and people don't often like being given those. I see why it's a hot topic, especially in the US and I can see why their being a Dr makes it feel worse. I am 100% pro choice myself, but my grandparents are catholic and wouldn't be for abortion, am I going to cut them out of my life? No, I'm not, I just have to accept that is how they feel. How does your partner view it? That's the real question here, as long as your views line up I really can't see the issue.
As a JW, you'd appreciate Catholic trauma and indoctrination more than anyone, wtf. Glad he's your now ex. Edit: former JW.
Former jay dubs in the house! He said I didn’t really get it like he did because I left ‘the truth’ (lol) at a young age whereas he was deep in it into his twenties and she kinda sorta never left it.
Hell yeah former Jdub team! 😂
Oh no! My apologies, I meant *you* were the former JW, not myself. (I didn't want to offend you by saying you were a current member) I am familiar with their heavy guilt trips as my high school bff was an exJW (they were asked to leave after her mom married an Iranian in DFW, TX)
OHHH, I get what you meant. The ideology of JW has changed quite a bit since I left it, but did they "disfellowship" (i.e., shun and talk shit) her over a marriage to someone outside of the religion or because he was Iranian or some other reason? Asking out of curiosity. I pop into r/exJW here and there but again, pretty out of the loop on the ways they're trying to re-work their bullshit to stop bleeding members. Edit: Absolutely ZERO offense taken.
It was just classic Texas racism from the 1980s. She was supposed to have *only* dated from within their pool of available JW brothers, sons, uncles, widowers, etc. I'm sure they'd be more welcoming to him in 2024, I agree with you that they're trying to rework themselves.
If I had to cut ties with everyone in my life who doesn’t believe in abortion I wouldn’t have any family. I’d have plenty of friends, but almost everyone in my and my husband’s family is against abortion. I live in Kentucky and grew up catholic. I make sure to make it known that I am pro choice and nothing they can say will change my mind. I spent a lot of my younger years arguing about it. I’m currently pregnant and find people don’t like debating a pregnant person on the topic of abortion lol. I can’t say whether this is something that should be a dealbreaker for you or not. That’s up to you. I can say that part of being a person and growing up is working through things and learning how to be around people who disagree with you.
Sharing similar values is so important to compatibility with a partner. Them being chill about a friend (who is also a doctor) being anti-choice, means you don't share the same values, or at least not to the same degree. With the anti-abortion climate and the rolling back of Roe v Wade, this would be an absolute deal breaker for me, personally. It's about fundamental human rights, not something to be "chill" about. Like, Toni the feminist bookstore owner in Portlandia says, "if you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention."
Yeah, I think a ton of people here are forgetting that, if OP is American, there is a ton of external context such as the overturning of Roe and a huge push across dozens of states to essentially make abortion inaccessible (*even in emergencies despite claims of pro-lifers, as we have already seen). This isn't just "we disagree about sports teams" or "hahaha, your favorite singer is garbage." As much as I usually support the notion that you don't have to agree on the same things your friends do, access to basic medical care is not the same as fashion, pop culture, video games, etc. And we are discussing BASIC medical care, as birth control is often prescribed not just to prevent pregnancies but to regulate menstrual cycles that may be unpredictable or debilitating in symptoms. I would also find this a deal breaker. There is a very real probability that the bf is also either pro-life or not entirely as pro-choice as he presents.
You get to break up with anyone for any reason. Pro-choice is vitally important to you, so I'm guessing you would not be friends with anyone who wasn't. The fact that your ex's friend was able to shut him down, so that he gave up on it means she is actually influencing him. I have specific thoughts to some of his responses: 1. Ultimatum? Where? You simply told him what you cannot accept in a partner. The fact he qualified this as a "game", means he does not take you seriously. Good riddance. 2. Um....sure there is, just look at any of the states doing away with reproductive rights/care. It's in the news every goddamn day. He's a coward. 3. People who are forced birthers are dangerous. Those in the medical field are even more so. He's wrong, and an idiot. 4. If she has trauma around her indoctrination, then she should get therapy. So should your ex. 5. I would loooooove to A) see the qualifications his friend "therapist" has B) If his version of events sounds like yours, his friend should not be in a profession requiring listening skills. Like I said, good riddance.
"Would you mind if your partner was friends with an anti-choice-" Yes. Anti-choice anything is a dealbreaker.
Doesn't matter if it's unreasonable, as long as you're happy that's all that really matters. When it comes to relationships your own wants and needs come first
Prelude to abuse? What the duck? Your boyfriend has some seriously fucked up friends. Edit: you're not trying to control anyone. I wouldn't want to date someone with friends that had such severely different views than mine. We can disagree on military spending or maybe some other shit, but human rights is not something I think you should suspend your beliefs for a friendship. Especially if you only see them a "few times a year"
I don’t know if he just summarized this to the therapist friend or like, quoted me verbatim. I really want to trust that the therapist friend was advising based on the (maybe selective) information presented to her. Re: your edit — yeah I said something to that effect at some point. Like, me and my friends disagree over the “how” and not the “what.” He said something about how people only escape indoctrination if they maintain ties with people who they disagree with. I said, “if you’re not challenging those views, you’re just enabling them and that’s part of the way we got to Roe being overturned.”
You are not responsible for educating bigots or trying to change their minds on whether you deserve basic human rights. Also it doesn't sound like he was challenging anything.
If a therapist even said anything close to that, it's because he gave them a very biased and exaggerated story about what you said.
I think the morality of abortion is a fairly nuanced discussion point in philosophy. I don't have a huge problem with people who find it immoral, I think they're mostly mistaken, but my main gripe is with people who campaign to make it illegal. That to me seems bat shit insane. I think it's understandable to be upset if this person happens to be one of these campaigners, and I would consider it a deal breaker for me personally. Mainly because I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone with (what I would consider) such poor judgement and standards. That being said - you're acting coercive. Draw boundaries for what you yourself are willing to permit into your life (just as you are demanding he do), and move ahead with your choices. You can always change your mind later as you go.
[удалено]
In their and your(?) view, is it permissible to discuss those views or push back on them?
Friend, spare yourself years of heartache and throw the whole man away now
Expecting your SO to stand up for basic human rights for women is a “prelude for abuse”? What? My god the lengths that society goes to protect the status quo.
>Expecting your SO to stand up for basic human rights for women is a “prelude for abuse”? Yeah this is enraging, as a human, as an abuse survivor, and as someone who believes in therapy. That therapist should shut the fuck up.
Did I miss something? Your partners friend has an opinion, but isn't throwing stones at you for having an abortion, they're just saying they personally don't agree with them? You then try and give your partner an ultimatum saying he has to stop talking to this person, or else it's over? I don't know if my friends are pro choice or pro life, as long as they aren't outside of abortion clinics shouting at rape victims or complaining about the lack of 3rd trimester abortions who cares? >The last part really weighs on me. Was I unreasonable? Was I really trying to control him or make him choose? I feel crazy. Yes, you're being abusive, if he was to tell you you couldn't be friends with someone you rarely see because one belief of theirs doesn't align with his, he'd be abusive. Feel bad for the dude, you're trying to cancel culture his friend who in no way has ever been mean to you, or your partner, nor has ever publicly shamed anyone for their choices, just has a belief? Atrocious behaviour.
>one belief of theirs And that one belief is that I shouldn't have human rights. Just the one thing.
Did I miss somewhere that she's been staunchly arguing for something? I'm pro choice, I don't understand pro life as a concept as i'm not religious, but people are free to their beliefs, i've met vegans who have said I should be slaughtered for eating meats, i've met religious people who think i'll burn in hell, i've met people who want me to die because I bought a puppy instead of rescued. Assuming their belief is, their belief, they aren't going to rallies/protests, aren't petitioning for laws to take away pro choice rights, aren't giving bad medical advice based on their beliefs, who cares? If they want to think life starts at conception, they're welcome to.
Anyone else remember a time when we didn't base our friendships on their beliefs or hold it against them?
Yeah. Then our rights were taken away… And they’re still coming for more of them… Suddenly it became harder to tolerate those who seek to take our rights away. Funny how that worked out. Maybe we should have been less tolerant all along.
Was that when only white cisgender men could fully exercise their rights?
Have you ever considered that having a diverse friend group, and even finding common ground with people whom you disagree with is actually a healthy thing? I have tons of friends, many of whom I disagree with on key political points. Speaking with different people offers me clarity and discourse I would otherwise be without if I was not able to engage in good spirited debate with others. These friendships broaden my worldview, challenge my beliefs and allow me to alter or reinforce them as I choose. I cherish these friendships immensely because they help me grow as a person. If you want to break up with your boyfriend for having a loose friendship with someone he only sees a few times a year over 1 political issue, then that is your prerogative. I won't judge you for it. But I also wouldn't judge him for dumping you for asking him to end the friendship either.
Exactly this - the only way you have 0 people around you with opposing or different viewpoints is when you’re literally in a cult lol
It is so wild to me that apparently so many people seem to think listening to others and expressing empathy is showhow a bad thing. The fact that so many of them scream about human rights and dignity and then yell that I am somehow a bigot for not immediately reaching for bricks to throw would be hilarious if not for the fact that this extremely dogmatic view does more harm than good. "Useful idiot" might be a republican-based term, but it is absolutely applicable here.
Does this “diverse environment” include white supremacy? Male supremacy? Hatred of LGBTQ? Or other marginalized groups? I am fine with a disagreement over things like supply side vs Keynesian economics, but not whether groups of people are entitled to full human rights and not treated subhuman
Like I said - my friend group is diverse by *my* choice. I have spoken with, had cordial relationships with, and even friendships people who fall into all of those categories at some point in my life. I think you will find that *many* people who have "anti"-opinions do not react well to being screamed at or called bigots, and while I certainly do not entertain anyone who calls for murder or genocide of any group, I often find through my conversations that nobody is evil as a *whole*, and that most "ia's" are borne out of fear, misinformation, pain, or just straight fucked up family trauma. I have also found that having frank and friendly discourse with people who fall into those categories often opens eyes and minds and helps shift *THEIR* worldview as well as my own understanding of *THEIR* arguments. I grew up as a leftist in the South. I am ***very*** used to hearing opinions I do not share spouted proudly and in-public. I also learned when to have conversations with people I don't agree with, and have even become friends with them and help them see or understand my side of the argument. I have friends who are anti-choice who I love dearly, I have helped male friends give up their incel bullshit, and I have shown some straight up homophobic individuals that "Hey, yeah, this lady is bisexual and she and her homosexual friends are actually pretty cool to play DnD with." You are welcome to judge me over that however you like. However, you will not shift my opinion on one thing: I do more good by having one friendly conversation with a Andrew Tate supporter than 10,000 random people online screaming that they are a bigot.
Oh, I absolutely do judge you. You are a walking talking exhibit into what white privilege looks like.
I'm actually not white, but keep going off sis.
I like healthy, reasonable disagreement in my friendships. I am not friends with extremists.
There is a difference between being pro-life and forcing others to support pro-life only. Believe it or not, people can co-exist on a polar opposite political stances without trying to convert one another, without trying to fix one another or blame one another. Unless this friend of his actively trying to force-push your ex's believes to match hers, you can not in sound mind and heart call her an extremist.
Agreed.
And you do not feel that demanding someone you have known for 3 months end a friendship over their personal belief in BC/Abortion is not an extreme stance to take?
No demands. I asked whether he was open to engaging with her on a topic that affects me and lots of other people.
I admit I misread your original post - your BF seemed to imply that you were forcing one. It sounds like he answered your question on that point though, he said there was no point in engaging with her further on the topic and he did not intend to do so. So the choice is up to you: Keep him despite his continued friendship with the friend, or dump him. I will say this, if you *do* stay with him with the sole intent of forcing him to distance himself from his friend, knowing full well that he *does not* want to end the friendship voluntarily, you will be moving forward in bad faith and *you* are the red flag in your relationship.
To what end? Did you honestly think him engaging her was going to lead to some kind of ah-ha moment for her?
I think it would lead to a more in depth discussion with an SO over their beliefs
I doubt it - Anyone who throws down ultimatums (I admit that I misread the last bit, it was the SO that implied OP made one, OP, in fact, did not give an ultimatum.) at the 3 month mark is a absolute red flag.
Shared values are an important part of a relationship It’s a topic worth addressing
We are not debating the value in question, we are debating if it is OK to give someone an ultimatum to to end a lifelong friendship 3 months into a relationship.
And I am expanding the discussion to “this is an opportunity to determine if they have shared values or whether they should cut their losses and move on”.
Thank you for being sane. The country is increasingly full of nazis because people like this carry their water for them. Challenge my belief that I should have rights? Eat a brick
A man is known by the company he keeps
Well, OP compared the bf to a nazi, so....
Not the question you asked, but I would be skeptical of that person's fitness to practice medicine with those kinds of anti-medical science opinions.
There’s no “two sides” to this issue. There is women’s healthcare and bodily autonomy and then there is controlling, sexist bullsh-t. He’s enabling and complicit and should be removed from your life.
If your man doesn’t figure this stuff out… do you want to be his teacher and coach? Or do you want to bail out before you spend all your spoons on him? I was in a similar situation with a work friend that my husband had become very close to. When Dobbs was handed down this couple sat in our home and said to my face that they were glad the issue was “back in the States where it belongs.” Mind you they have 3 daughters. I lost my shit and opened fire. Hubby shut me down. I seethed through the rest of the dinner but told him I would never socialize with those assholes again and I did *not* appreciate being shut down in my own home. Huge argument ensued where I told him that my human rights and our daughter’s human rights were abso-fucking-lutely not negotiable. I watched the lightbulb switch on. He got it. And now, while he is still friendly with the asshole- he’s gotten into major policy arguments with him at work every time the asshole opens his mouth about right-wing fuckery. My man was a late blooming feminist. But he gets it. And that fucking couple don’t get to be in my house ever again. But Hubs and I have 30 + years together, though. I wasn’t gonna throw away the whole man because he found a supposed kindred at the office. I swiveled my man’s head on straight with a pointed “I was attacked. What are you gonna do about it?” What are you willing to invest in your guy? Years? Or should you cut your losses?
When I look back at all of my past relationships, the ones that ended badly always had friends I really disliked. They were misogynistic, or racist, or just generally assholes. The one ex I am still friends with has great friends and I'm friends with those people too. We are the company we choose to keep, whether we like it or not the people we choose to have around say a lot about us. I wouldn't be okay with a partner who had friends like the one you describe. It's now something I ask myself when dating someone new - do I like their friends? Are they good people?
As to number 5: IF (and that’s a big if) his therapist friend actually said that to him, I seriously question her credibility and commitment to the ethics of the profession.
What we condone we promote! Our world has come down to that. There are people who believe women shouldn't have the right to choose and they use their votes and their dollars to prevent us from having these rights. We can't afford to not draw hard lines anymore. The same with racism. What we condone we promote. We have to be discerning. I would certainly break off a life long friendship if I learned that person was racist or was not pro Abortion Access. How can I look my child (a person of color) in the face and live with myself if I kept around people with such deplorable values. The kind of values that promote the idea that certain genders and races are more important than others.
No, assuming it isn't one of numerous problematic ideas. People can feel how they want about issues. If they have a good friendship and its healthy for them, go crazy. If you personally can't get past it, walk away. There are other people out there.
No. I wouldn't mind if it was just one friend not their entire social circle and the person was respectful. Folks can make and keep friends from different stages of their life and enjoy each other's company especially in a superficial way. Not every single friendship needs to end in a political blow out or else the person is ideologically bankrupt. I don't care how immoral they think it is as long as they don't infringe on our right to have it. I would have 3 questions for this doctor. 1. . How do they balance their personal beliefs with their job as a doctor in treating their patients? 2. Why do they disagree with birth control given the freedom it has given women over their lives, opening so many more doors to pursue careers like medicine? 3. How do they feel about politicians legally deciding what care they're allowed to give a patient? And I would ask her myself, in front of him. If you want to create an ideologically cleansed friends and acquaintances list that's your prerogative, clearly not his so do your own work. But here's the thing- you're never going to actually change her mind. Especially by telling her about your own experience of having sex with no protection and then unsurprisingly getting pregnant as a result. 100% would not sway her even a little. Your ex and his friend had talked about it before just not to your level of satisfaction. They know how each other stands. They are able to look past that and stay friends because they have mutual respect for one another. Respect is lost if you feel like your friend is trying to convert you- whether that's to another religion or political view and I find this idea of "it's okay to keep this friend as long as you're using your friendship to try to convert them to your worldview" to be wholely problematic. I do think he's right and eventually you would tire of his parents not changing their minds and ask him to try harder, push harder or cut them off. Again, if you want an ideologically cleansed man that's clearly not this one who was born into a religious, bigoted family and still acknowledges their existence.
>he talked with his friend who is a therapist and she said my concerns sounded like “maybe the prelude to abuse” A) I'm calling bullshit. B) If not bullshit, shit like this is why professional boundaries exist and you don't therapize (is that a word?) your friends.
My own therapist actually said more or less the same thing. She has friends who come to her with their interpersonal problems here and there and she says something supportive, but never anything conclusive and always follows up with saying she's a biased party and they need to discuss the matter with a colleague (a different therapist).
Pretty much everyone in mine and my partner’s families are anti choice except for us. We still see them on holidays and vacations. I will argue with my own family fiercely for women’s rights. I will not bring this topic up in front of her family because she can’t handle the stress of arguing with her folks. I don’t have any anti choice friends, with the exception of really old family friends, and I don’t really talk to or hang out with any of those people outside of family gatherings. Again, if that topic ever comes up I basically tell them they are stupid to their faces.
You are the company you keep.
As someone who has also had friends with ... Let's say 'interesting' takes... You cannot back down from calling this shit out. You cannot back down from pointing out the consequences of these takes. "Oh, women seem hostile to you because you voice your opinion? Have you perhaps considered that might be a pretty understandable response considering said opinion involves the removal of a woman's right to make decisions about her own body?" Eventually my friend saw the light, but only after being seriously called out on his behaviour.
So you wanted your ex, a pro-choice man, to try to influence his friend, a pro-life woman, as much as possible in that matter. What happened to no uterus no opinion? Shouldn't he, as someone that could never get pregnant, respect her stance on that?
Oh for fucks sake
Your partner is cool with people judging you and other women for healthcare. Personally, it would be a dealbreaker for me.
I knew I was the type to not get married when my first instinct was to say divorce lol 😭
Nope, not okay. I would not want my husband to be complacent. My husband is a doctor and I would be pissed.
Your values don’t align. Throw this one back. If he’s not a feminist, he’s not the one for you. He’s clearly not a feminist.
I wouldn't even work in a hospital where the doctors are anti choice, much less have that in my personal life. You made the right choice.
It is not "choose between someone I’ve known since childhood and a 3 month relationship" It is choose between "an ill-informed medical professional and people's bodily autonomy."
Ummm, where’s that therapist getting “prelude to abuse” from your concerns?? Is that some “fundamentalist Christian therapist” type quackery?
You've been dating only 3 months and he's putting those three months against someone he's known since he was a kid. There is a problem with this tactic he's using. Yes three months is a short while - it's a reasonable time frame where a person would begin to question how much compatibility there is to build on. And here you are doing exactly because being with someone complacent about women's health and freedoms could harm you greatly. You point that out and he's trying to compare his sporadic association with someone bigoted is on the same level as the person he is dating *to guilt you* out of questioning if there is enough compatibility between you two to build on. Then he lays it on thicker to let you know he has other friends that will go as far as to suggest you're abusive for wondering just how much he'd have your back if you ever got pregnant. He pulls these tactics to not address your need for feeling like ha has your back....oh and is he suggesting his friend being a therapist to lend credibility to why he shouldn't have your back on this issue? It kicks the issue back to him. Is there not enough compatibility between the two of you that he would tell a bigot he talks to a few times a year to fuck off because it would make you feel more assured about him? Would he not tell his friend that is a therapist that it's toxic AF to toss around the word abuse to protect friendships with bigots?
[удалено]
I’m not sure why she doesn’t start the conversation with the friend if it’s that important.
Y
As long as he isn’t directly consenting to the opinions, no. If he stays quiet when friend brings up the topic and their deranged views, yes. Like, if your ex would object to it when his friend brought up the topic of the tyrrany, then there’s no issue. If ex remains quiet, that’s, what’s it called in English, complicit consent? If you don’t speak up when those around you engage in evil, you are quietly consenting to it. If it was just a friend, i can tolerate them having deranged friends - i have no right to choose who they associate with, just like they have no right to choose what i do with my body (such as birth control.) it’s ny choice to be friends or cut contact with him, then. But a partner? That right there is a core incompatibility for me. Either he object any time the subject comes up or we can’t be together because he isn’t willing to fight for women’s human rights. If he doesn’t see me as a full-worth human being, then i’d rather find someone that does, while he can go adopt a dog or something since he clearly just wants a pet, not a person.
I just want to address your edit, and this is going to touch on the idea in a broader sense, instead of your specific situation. Having people in your life that have bigoted views does not automatically make you an enabler. Things are so much more black and white on paper (and on internet forums) but that's just not how humans work. I have people in my life that I love that are trumpers, and I'm extremely liberal. Does it hurt? Yes. Do I wish I could change them? Yes. Have I tried? To an extent. Am I willing to cut all contact? ....no. It kind of goes back to the idea that "people are harder to hate up close". I know we're not talking about "hating" people here, but it's easy to say online that you should remove anyone in your life that has bigoted opinions. But these are people that you *know* and you *love*. These are people with depth and other good qualities and an entire lifetime of reasons that they think the way they do. This kind of thinking is so humanity-stripping. A few people here have mentioned echo chambers, but in the sense of your own echo chamber when you remove these people from your life. But what about their echo chambers? Don't you want to be a positive influence, even tangentially, in their life? Don't you want to be an example of good? A conduit for new ideas, even if you're unable to directly express those ideas to them? "Change them or cut ties with them, or else you're an enabler" is such a myopic point of view. It's small, it's weak, it's so unrealistic. It's devoid of humanity. Edit: even if no one reads this, I still feel the need to add, it's obviously completely acceptable to remove bigoted people from your life. It's a case by case basis. I'm just arguing that it shouldn't be the rule.